Girls Gotta Eat - Cheating Isn't Black and White feat. Esther Perel

Episode Date: November 3, 2025

We are re-releasing one of our most beloved and impactful interviews with the iconic Esther Perel, with a fresh intro (plus never before seen footage for the video version). The renowned psychotherapist and author joins us to talk about relationships, sexuality, and infidelity. We cover cheating in depth, including why it occurs, why it hurts so badly, how to trust again, and whether relationships can come back from infidelity. And we're also discussing the expectations we put on our partners nowadays, why they may not be realistic, and how to navigate this for a healthy relationship. Enjoy! Follow Esther on Instagram at @EstherPerelOfficial, and visit https://www.estherperel.com/. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for live show tickets and more. Thank you to our partners this week: Bilt: Get points by paying rent at https://joinbilt.com/gge. Better Help: Get 10% off your first month at https://betterhelp.com/gge. Helix: Get 20% off at https://helixsleep.com/gge. Smart Mouth: Get a special discount on your next SmartMouth purchase at www.smartmouth.com/GGE. Columbia Sportswear: Head to https://www.columbia.com/ to get your hands on an Amaze Puff Jacket. Saks Fifth Avenue: Head to Saks Fifth Avenue or saks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And that's when you say it is not black and white. It is not good and bad. It is not the perpetrator and the victim. It's a little more complicated. And since it happens in so many of our families, we have got to make room for these nuances and not just go quick for the judgment. This podcast is a Dear Media Production. Hi, guys.

Hi, guys. Welcome back to sort of another episode of Girls Got to Eat. A very important re-released episode. Become. Because I'm married. to you guys. Apparently. Well, you never know.

Who's to say? We still have 10 days. Almost two weeks. We're recording this before. Obviously, we were not going to drop a new episode the Monday after my wedding. I think you'll get married. So Sparkle-Eyes is in the room with us. Do you think you're going to go through with it?

Do you want to pop in? Nope. No on both. Proof that men can only answer one question at a time. So we are going to have him on and. and recap the wedding on November 17th. We just want to be real with you guys and be up front about the scheduling and the way we were able to do this so I could enjoy myself and, you know, be able to back to work, bitch.

Yeah. So November 17th, we'll recap it all. He will come on. Spoiler alert. But yeah, so as it stands now, hopefully it happened, you know. Okay, so you're on your honeymoon and we'll. Mini, mini moon. Just sort of like a cool quick three-day trip.

I like how you've gameed this. to have multiple honeymoon. I think this is kind of what people do. They take a few days right after and then plan something big for later. I always find, we've talked about this in the past. I find it crazy that people spend months planning a wedding and they leave the next day. Listen,

if you have the capacity to plan a whole vacation, but like packing by itself, packing for a week wipes me out. Well, this is what I said to you. I can't wrap my head around. I need to be packed for a minimum 10 day vacation, two weeks, whatever you're going to take on the Tuesday before my wedding.

I can't brought my head around it. But yeah, there was no way to plan it. You know, we're going to take some time off. And then next year we'll do a big trip. We don't even really quite know where it's going to be. The world? In the world. Like where the world's going to be or where you're going to be?

We're going to Italy. Well, he said we're going to Japan. We're going to Italy. We're going to a group trip to Italy. That's what I meant. Well, also we are going to go to Japan before. we move out of LA. He and I are going to go to Japan at some point. My dream honeymoon is an African Safari. It's not his. I wish you guys could see his face right now. He's not even paying attention

to us. He's scrolling. It's his birthday. Over here, I do manual labor in the studio. He brought beers in a little lunchbox. He's so cute. He's so cute. He's so cute. He's a little six-pack and his lunchbox like Anton, carrying around his little six-pack. Babe, where did the tequila bottle go? Let me check. Let's see if I can find it. I'm proud of you that you understood that. reference. Okay. So anyway, today Esther Perel. Yes. So I mean, people always say who's your number one dream guest? She was always one of our top dream guest and my number one top. Dream guest. She is a psychotherapist who's world renowned absolutely changed my life with her work. She really focuses on fidelity, monogamy. And that is what we recorded with her a couple years back, one of our top episodes.

And we're going to re-release that today. It's one of my favorite episodes that we've done. So we've had her on This was the very first time she came on. This was in 2021. It was such a dream. Like they say never meet your heroes. And we had met my hero a few weeks prior. And that really did not go well. And so then we got to meet your hero, totally different experience.

She couldn't have been more wonderful. She hung out. She had a game that we were playing afterwards. So this episode, we did not do full video episodes back then. We started that, I think the following year in 2022. But we would record full video for to cut a few reels. What were we doing? That is so much memory.

But I was still editing the podcast, so we didn't have Anna. Was it one video angle? No, we, we did multi-angle for- Do you not know what's about to happen? I don't remember. Anyway, so you guys are watching. Actually, I asked me what happened last month. I don't remember.

If you guys are watching, you already know more than Raina. So this is a full, yeah, it's us on the couch in the New York, old studio and Estere. And it's incredible. So we have our old faces. Well, maybe like version two faces. I had my old face. I am post rhinoplast. I am pre-chin implant.

Okay. So this is how we used to look in 2021. And this is never before seen video. So if you guys listen to the episode, I highly recommend you revisit it. I relistened as we decided to re-release this. And I hadn't remembered it word for word, of course. Just so much incredible information. I love that we're releasing an episode about cheating the day after my wedding, but here we are.

Not really on brand. But she is just the, I mean, premier voice in this space. and she really takes such a unique, realistic, nuanced perspective on everything, especially monogamy. So I read her book, State of Affairs. Mating Cativity is her other really famous book. And State of Affairs was really the first time I ever read a person right about cheating as not a black and white thing, as being very gray, as something that is really heavily practiced throughout the world, highly misunderstood, really vilified. But it's something that so many people do and it will experience either of themselves being the cheater or being cheated. cheated on and it's so nuanced and the way she speaks about it is just incredible. So we had a

profound discussion with her. So enjoy this deep cut. We are just going to talk about our partners and we will get into it. All right. Thank you to Build. Get points by PangRat at Joinbilt.com and BetterHelp. Get 10% off your first month at BetterHelp.com slash GGE. And thank you to Helix. get 20% off at helix sleep.com slash gge. And thank you to SmartMouth. Get a special discount on your next SmartMouth Purchase. At smartmouth.com and Columbia Sportswear, head to Columbia.com to get your hands on an amaze puff jacket.

And thank you to Sacks Fifth Avenue. Head to Sacksvath Avenue or Sacks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style. And without further ado, here is the interview. Okay, guys, we are really excited to welcome our guests for today. She is a world-renowned psychotherapist who is iconic in the couple's therapy space. She is a New York Times bestselling author of two of my favorite books on how we love, mating in captivity and state of affairs. Her collection of TED Talks have amassed over 30 million views,

and they include The Secret to Desire in Long-Term Relationships and Rethinking Infidelity, a talk for anyone who has ever loved. Please welcome to this show, one of my personal favorites, Esther Perel. Hello, hello. Hello. Hi, thank you for being here. This is a huge day for us. And we had such a nice time chatting with you and talking to you catching up on,

you just told us your TED Talks of Amassed 30 million views. I was in Miami with my boyfriend, and we were watching one of your TED talks in the hotel room instead of going down to the beach. Oh, it was like somebody I met this week and was saying, I'm driving, no, we were literally talking in like five minutes into it. She says, I know this voice. I know this voice.

I drive with you to Boston. I listen to the episodes of the podcast. Where should we begin? Are you that person? Well, I was telling me that I listened to an episode of your podcast and I got lost and I ended up in New Jersey because I was so invested. That's a terrible place to get lost. Luckily, I was coming back to New York, but I just got so invested in this couple.

And so I eventually just was like, I need to turn this off and wait until I get home and finish and wrap it up. But it's heavy and it's raw and it's, it's, it's, incredible. Should we say what it is? The podcast? Yeah. It is couples therapy live. Right. It is you a fly on the wall listening in. Exactly. And why?

Because too many couples spend their time posturing and curating their lives and they don't tell the truth. And so then you say it's heavy because it's actually real. It's not always heavy, but it's the truth. And most of us don't know what really happens

in the love lives of our closest friends. I mean, I mean, the two of you may know about each. We know a lot and it makes us almost, we ask each other sometimes, like, whose relationship do you really want? You know, like so many people want to be in a relationship so badly and we're like, but we know, we almost know too much. You know, yes, yes, yes. It's the first thing people share with us. And you is why I shared some with you, which we're not going to share on the podcast today, but within two minutes of meeting you, I shared something very personal with you. And that's

our experience as well. And we talk about that too. You know, you have this whole list of what you want from somebody in a relationship and this idea of this perfection. And like, I don't know anybody that gets to have that. You know, I think the goal is just to have most of the things you want with a person that you trust and that you love spending time with. Or you switch the focus from everything that you want in the other person to asking yourself, at least sometimes, who do you want to be? Not just who do you want to meet. What should they bring to the table? What do you want to bring to the table? I think that that would balance the thing as well. we love that sometimes we think of someone that has this big list of what they want in a partner

but what are you what what's your list that's right look like that's right who are you being right relationship yeah we reina i'm gonna let rena kind of take it away on this you're you know her to her dream guest i'm so glad to have you here too but you can kind of yeah we don't have you no it's a real treat that i'm here and honestly i had no idea i was rejecting you what your publicist did. She's here too. Oh, no. No, this is perfect.

We're so glad. Yeah, and we're ready for the interview, too. Honestly, I would say, like, day one, I wouldn't have been ready to have these type of conversation. Yeah. But I found your work about four years ago. I read the book, State of Affairs, and it really focuses on fidelity and infidelity

from a lot of different lenses. So why do people cheat? Why would somebody take back a cheater? What does that do to a marriage or a relationship? And then you end the book, actually with, why would somebody be a mistress and why would somebody accept that? And I like the whole 360 view of all this. And so we'll talk about those things today and talk about fidelity and reframing how you think about it. But you wrote a couple of things in the book that

I wrote down that I thought were really profound and it's a couple sentences. So I'll read you back to you. But you wrote this extremely common human experience is so poorly understood. Adultery has existed since marriage was invented and so to the prohibition against it. what are we to make of this time-honored taboo universally forbidden and yet universally practiced? And I find that very moving because, yes, we think of this as the cardinal sin cheating on someone or wanting to cheat on someone or saying I want to be in an open relationship. But so many of us do these things or want to do these things or have the inclination towards it. So you sort of floated this idea of like our ideas are our ideas of marriage wrong

and what we should have in a relationship wrong. So I would love to talk about that stuff today. You know, if you add a tiny bit of history and also a broader cultural perspective, let's also say that for most of history, men have had the opportunity to cheat with impunity. And it often was also even justified in all kinds of evolutionary and biological terms. It's the women who were not allowed. There's always been a double standard. What has really changed is the meaning of infidelity. What it means in the context of romantically. love if romantic love is not that your father picks for you because that's how it is it's the father that picks for you in many places and you get to choose and you get to choose freely as you get a little older and somebody chooses you and not only do they choose you but we have this idea of the one and only you know and you find your soulmate supposedly we can discuss that in a minute then when the person cheats on you it is the shattering of the grand ambition of love it is a

the fact that you are not the one and only. It is the fact that you may be replaceable and it just pierces you. So infidelity has always existed, but what it means has deeply changed. And when you had women who were economically dependent on men, then the cheating also meant an economic destitution, you know, so you had to stay. Once women became economically independent and they can leave and they can sustain themselves, then it becomes the cardinal sin from which I'm not supposed to take you back. That question about taking back is a question that my grandmother never had the privilege of asking. She had no choice.

Wow. We wanted to talk about while we're here, like why it hurts so bad. And there's something about even if there's a cheating situation or even if someone just moves on after you have broken up, it like is the worst pain in the world. And I dealt with that. I think we've all dealt with that and trying to figure out why, you know, like it, and it's, I think obviously that feeling of feeling replaceable, like you're not the only one wondering, was this ever real, you know, am I lovable, am I unlovable? So, you know, you say, Rayna, that I write this sentence, historically practiced historically forbidden. I ask audiences, and this goes a moment before the, the, the why it hurts, you ask an audience, have you been affected by the experience of

infidelity in your life. Either because your parent, one of your parents, was unfaithful. I or fell in love with another person and went to live and make a new life with another person. Either because you yourself are the child of an illicit love. Either because you were the third person that completed the triangle. Either because you're the friend on whose shoulder somebody has been weeping from weeks or because you are the friend that somebody has been confining with, you know, in utter titular tit. and excitement and revelation. And 80% of every audience I'm standing with raises their hand.

So it is not just a few bad apples. This experience is pervasive. It's systemic. It's intergenerational. It's secrets in the family, et cetera, et cetera. On the one-on-one question that you ask, why does it hurt when this is done to me? It's experienced as the most painful violation of trust.

I thought we were in this together and you had my back. and you would not put your interests ahead of mine. How could you be so selfish? Or it must be a confirmation that I'm not enough. I'm not good enough. Other people, this is what I've always thought. I'm unlovable. Nobody will stay with me.

I'm destined to be abandoned. And here it is. Or, I mean, these are all soliloquies in our heads about why this is so beautiful. You fell in love with someone else. And I love you and I miss you and I ache for you. And, you know, how do I get? get you to come back and you cannot force someone to love.

Or I love you very much. I want you to have those experiences with somebody else because I am not able to satisfy you sexually because I'm sick because I have all kinds of disabilities that don't allow me to be sexual with you anymore. But I wish I could. It really hurts me that I cannot give you everything that we share together.

So it's all of that. It's I thought I knew my life. And suddenly I realized that for the last five weeks to five years, you know, there's a whole other story happening in the shadow of my life. Right. Where the hell is my head? All of that makes us feel like we go crazy when we learn. Actually crazy. Yeah.

Like, you know those moments of like, I'm a crazy person. Yeah. But when you put it in those terms, it's overwhelming. All of those feelings. It is overwhelming. It is a very overwhelming experience. And more so, when it's. is wrapped in this notion of I thought I was the one. How could that happen to me or how could you

do this to me? When I work in other parts of the world, you know, I once was in Morocco with a group of young women that were working in a center together and I gathered all of them and I just said, you know, in the US, the pressure is on the woman, especially I'm talking to men, women, configurations to leave the unfaithful man. And the girl just says to me, but madame, if we had to chase away all the unfaithful men, all of Morocco would be divorced. Right.

You know, she just said, this is systemic here. This is not just an issue of a relationship with its issues. And I think that is an important thing, is to not think that this only happens because there are issues inside of you or between us, and that by definition, infidelity is a symptom of relationship. relationships gone awry. Infidelity has always been a systemic issue of power that existed alongside marriage. And especially when marriage was not a love affair, when marriage was not

about love, but it was about companionship and economic support and family life, people went outside of marriage to seek love. But once love entered marriage and now you betrayed me, then it became this painful experience that we are describing. Right. I think we forget how marriage started. It started. Not too long ago. So somebody could clean your house. So you could join, like, pro-create.

You know, like property. Right. And children were property too. Right. So I think that maybe there's like an element of all of us in order to be in a relationship is saying to yourself, I'm different. This will be different.

Yeah. And I don't think anyone starts a relationship thinking, I will fall out of love or I won't sexually be attracted to you. And, you know, Ashley and I have friends that have shared with us and just people in general that they're happy in their relationship, but it's sexless or that they have great sexual chemistry, but they're not really in love with their partner. We've seen every version of that.

But I think to get into the relationship, you have to say to yourself, it's going to be different. We are different. So if everybody's doing it, but no one wants it to happen to them, are all of our ideas of what a relationship should be wrong? No, our ideas are not wrong.

But we have a model that says, you know, what has happened? We wanted marriage for economic support, companionship, social status. Now we also want a best friend and a trusted confidant and a passionate lover to boot. And now we have the third level, which is I want the person who's going to help me become the best version of myself. It's a lot. And we live twice as long. It's not realistic. But it's, I mean, it's what we all want. And, you know, it's what we get

in the beginning of a relationship. I think. Yeah. I mean, Ray and I have that, which is minus the sex. We don't fucking. We don't. each other. But, you know, I think that we have the beginning of in the relationship. You know, I'm at the very beginning of a relationship. This thing that you just said is very important. You don't have these issues with each other. And many people sit in my office and say, I don't have this with anybody else. And I tell them, I believe you, the only two relationships that have a resonance with each other is the one that you had with your parents or your caregivers and the one that you have with your romantic partners. Right. I'm a different person in my relationship

with Ashley. It doesn't evoke the same kind of issues. You don't spend your time with her wondering, am I lovable, am I desirable? Will she leave me? Will she really care about me? Will she stand by me? Is every closeness relationship bound to hurt me? And I'm just waiting for that shoe to drop. You don't. You love her. You care for her. You work with her. And you free from that angst. Yeah. Okay. That angst actually may come out only when you date, only when you deal with partners. Male partners, female partners, doesn't matter. It's the romantic piece of it that then brings up all what you had and what you didn't have growing up, that you're not trying to complement in your friendship. Some people do, but that's not what happens here.

Right. So it's unrealistic even to compare. But yeah, I love that that's so true. There's a certain way you are only with your family and your romantic partner, your parents specifically. I'm sure if you like came to my apartment or I came to yours and just like watched you silently in a relationship, I'd be like, who is this person? We are. We exist. very differently. I'm a different person with my parents too, and that's a really good comparison. I'm a different person at home with my mom, you know. Yeah. So we are just going to take a quick break and talk about our partners, and then we will get back into it. I am telling you guys about smart mouth. We had a little bit of an issue with the smart mouth toothpaste in our house. Last night,

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So shopping, really, it should be easy and fun. They'll help you personal style in store or online. So you guys check it out. head to sacks with avenue or sacks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style every day. So can we, should we go back to this kind of expectations? So the expectations have never been higher. Higher. They're unprecedented.

What we would want from one person. It's a really tall order for a party of two. So that's the first thing. I don't know that I would say it's a problem. But I do think, yes, there is a major challenge that is, I think, unrealistic when you want one person to give you what normally an entire. village should provide. Sure. It's, you know, it's be my best friend and my confidant, but you know, fuck me like a porn star and, you know, be the most fun person to go out with, but also to stay in with. Or I've also been waiting for you for so long. And now that I met you,

I will never again feel depressed. I will never feel lonely. I will never feel misunderstood. I will never feel invisible because I feel all these things with you. And now it is upon you to make sure that I never have to feel those negative, those bad, sad feelings again. So, So you have that. Mating in captivity, by the way, the first book I wrote was about people who would come into my office and say, we love each other very much, we have no sex. And it was an exploration of what is the relationship between love and desire. That led me to, you know, think, look, affairs happened for a multitude of reasons. I wanted to write rethinking infidelity because I wanted to see what happens when desire goes outside. And there is a whole range of things that have to do with issues. in the relationship. Number one is loneliness. People feel lonely, disconnected. They don't communicate. It's been months, years that they haven't had a glance from each other. That will make you vulnerable to the kindness of strangers, period. But then there is sexlessness, violence, resentment, disconnects of all sorts. And then there is a whole other group of people, which are the people that

used to say to me, I do love my partner. I have no intention of going anywhere else. And that's when I started to say, it's too easy to think that this only happens on the basis of all these negative sentiments, but that there is also a certain way in which infidelity happens even in good couples and in people who consider themselves rather satisfied in their relationships. And then why? And that got really encapsulated in this sentence that traveled with me throughout the 10 years that I've been working with couples with infidelity before I wrote the book. And it was I didn't go outside because I wanted to find another person. I went outside because I wanted to find another self. Other parts of myself that I had lost after I got pregnant, after my mother died, after I was the one working here for years and my partner couldn't get a job.

After I hardened, you know, it's the loss and the longing. I didn't want to leave my partner behind. I wanted to leave the person that I myself had become. And this idea made me then say, infidelity is about betrayal and violation and deception and lies, but it is also about longing and loss and yearning of the lives and lived. I think that's really profound. And I lived with somebody when my first boyfriend in New York,

I lived with him. And he used to cheat on me just for fun, you know, just because he felt like it. You knew it? I felt like there was, he was always sort of like a step outside of the relationship. I felt like I can't put my finger on why he doesn't feel like 100% a partner. But I felt like between the two of us, we had sex every day, we had fun together, we had a nice life, we did a lot of really fun of things. He just felt like fucking other people. He didn't want to not be with me.

He just felt like lying to me and sleeping with other people because I think like you said, outside of the relationship, he was a different person. He got to be free of expectations of a relationship with other people. And then all of those feelings of like, am I good enough? Am I pretty enough? I didn't even think about those things because I was like, I do feel like I'm good enough for me. Maybe he asked himself those questions. Maybe he did.

Maybe he needed constant affirmation so that anything female that moved needed to be a possibility of affirming his masculinity and his ego. Not just, you know, you do want to say to people that when you choose somebody, you do let, you know, every choice is a loss. That is true too.

You do let go of others. I would not put this guy in the category of longing. and loss. Because you are new together, you are physical with each other every day and yet there is a sense in which he doesn't want any restriction. He wants to

continue to be and in a relationship and free as if he was totally on his own. And that is a different dance. That's one where you kind of say you know, I mean I would first of all say explain this one to me. What's it up for you? It didn't feel deeper to me

than that. I just felt like you're not a nice person. I'm not interested in being with you. We said on the show recently, I think I did, stop analyzing the behavior of shitty people. To me, I didn't need to analyze the behavior. You're a liar and you're a cheater and you're just fucking other people for sport. So it didn't feel that much deeper to me than that. And we broke up and I didn't really think about it again. Good. You know, I think we've, we've all been touched by infidelity like you said. And do you see couples come back from it and end up healthier on the other side? I mean, obviously there's work that needs to be done there. but I typically would divide it in three outcomes.

I used to see people, we know, if they come to me rather than the lawyer, they generally want to discuss something. They at least want to consider the possibility of staying together, what are they going to do with it? Is it salvageable? You know, what is this about? My first thing is to say, let's explore the meaning of this. It's the meaning of it that will tell you if the couple has a life afterwards

and what kind of life. Not the data, the facts. Did you do it, standing, sleeping, you know, that kind of stuff, that the sordid details that people want to mind for that don't really help you understand, what does this infidelity say about this relationship and do to this relationship? There are people who split. There are people who stay together, but they are no at the bone in a marital cell forever. Every time one of them is five minutes late, they remind each other.

You know, I can never count on you. I can never rely on you. I can never trust you because this happened and this happened. And there is no healing whatsoever. Then there are people who say this was a terrible crisis. We have a bigger life to live. We have family. We have kids.

We have careers. We have parents. We have extended family. You know, we put this aside and they never talk about it again. And then you have people who say, what is the message in the bottle? What is this telling us? Where did we become complacent? Where did we stop paying attention to each other?

where haven't we gone on a date since the kids were born, God knows what? Where have you not looked at me and complimented me? Where have we not touched each other and caressed each other and just said, I see you? We allowed this to happen. We created such a gap in between and they see this and they say, or you know, you made me feel undesirable or you rejected me constantly or I don't want to just, you know, be told not tonight, not tonight, not tonight for years on end. We're not talking weeks.

So this is the couples that I have most to do with because something happened in the relationship. This became an expression. The work you do is what does the relationship need at this point? How do you reconnect with each other? What have you not told each other? Look, there's so many variations. And that's the stuff you don't see in the magazines.

You know, the person who discovers a history of sexual abuse. and family is not the place where you heal. Family is the place where you were hurt. Goes outside, meet someone, experiences herself sexually for the first time, comes home, wants to be with the partner, but couldn't do it with the partner. That is a story I have heard more than once. Older people, different stories here, but probably some of the parents of the people who listen to us today, where one person is no longer completely present.

and the other person goes to visit them every day. But in order to stay alive, they need to connect to someone. You can't imagine the amount of people that have come to me at the end of a talk to ask, is this also considered infidelity? You know, and that's when you say it is not black and white. It is not good and bad. It is not the saint and the perpetrator and the victim. It's a little more complicated.

And since it happens in so many of our families, we have got to make room for these nuances and not just go quick for the judgment in every direction, in every direction, including for the many young women who listen to us today, the biggest one is taking him back, taking her back, taking them back. I think that we grow up thinking it's a very black and white thing,

or at least I did. Cheating is bad, cheaters are terrible. And women, especially that take cheaters back, how could you do something like that? Why are you so? weak. And it's, it's not like that at all. And it's such a gray area on both sides. And there's a million reasons why you would cheat and there's a million reasons why you would take somebody back. And it's so layered and so deep. And I just, I don't think of cheating and taking

somebody back as being this like black and white thing. It's so, so, so deep. And even like, what is cheating? What if we change the words? And what you call the cheater is actually a person who has felt for years now that you had too bad. busy to pay her, him, them, at any attention. Yeah. And now, suddenly, you woke up. We always referenced sexnessity. We can't help it. But they were the first time,

the movie was the first time I feel like something I watched explored cheating in that way, where it was, like they said the line, well, you broke a vow too, you know? Like, I, we haven't seen that really. We had seen a lot of black and white cheating, but I feel like they were the first to really tackle it and like why this happened,

why Steve felt neglected in the marriage, why she had violated their vows as well. And I just, and the friends were rallying around her and like reflect on yourself, Miranda, and forgive him as opposed to like, fuck him, he's a cheater. Once a cheater, always a cheater.

So that was the first time I, it shifted my mind a little bit. And, you know, I know it's a fictional show and movie, but I think that helped us all see it. No, it basically said, There is one person who's responsible for the affair or the infidelity or the cheating,

but there's two people who may be responsible for the degradation of the relationship. Right. And if you let this thing fall so dry and so desert, you need to own that too. It's so easy to instantly put yourself in the role of the victim of a cheater. And that's why the language is a very, you know, if instead of calling that person the cheater, you call that person the person who finally said, I can't accept this anymore. I can't live like, I can't be ignored, rejected, you know, unseen days on end, years on end. And then suddenly the other person wakes up because they now could feel the loss.

Absolutely. I mean, why should, why should you be in a sexless marriage? If somebody won't sleep with you for years on end and won't touch you and won't notice you and won't consider you. Or ask you, how are you? Yeah. Or ask you, how was your day? Or wonder, do you need anything? or help you when they see you running around trying to do five things at the same time,

all of that. It's not only the sex. It's every element of emotional deprivation. So when somebody does cheat and you're considering, if you're the one that's been cheated on and you're thinking, can I take this person back, are there things that you, you said something in the book where you said, you know, I tell people that their current marriage is over

and that they are going to embark on a new marriage with that same person. And I thought that was really interesting. So how can we begin to like forgive somebody and do we forgive somebody? I mean, look, there's a difference if you're two year together or 20 years. First of all, there's a difference if there's a family involved or not. You and that guy who's like, you know, you left right on time and if not even sooner. It's like there's nothing to talk about.

The guy is not just the fact that it's cheating. He's also that he cannot really be in an intimate relationship with you. It's not what they do outside. It's what they're not doing inside. So the next thing is, you know, I think the first thing is the distinction at first. When I find out that I've been lied to, that I've been betrayed, that there's been a secret, et cetera, the first thing I need is an acknowledgement that this is true. You have to acknowledge the facts.

If you have a person who starts to deny it or who gaslights you, starts to think you invented it. Oh, it's because of what happened at home. It's because you father cheated on you. And so now you see it, you know, and starts to twist your mind around. That's a whole other story. So the first thing when somebody has hurt someone is that someone acknowledges it, owns it, feels remorse for it, and feels guilty. No matter what reasons they had.

If that's the starting point, every herd is, I did that. And I own and I see, you know, you haven't slept, you haven't eaten. I see that, I own it. To take responsibility. The second step is, now we let, can we talk about why this has happened as well? And that's a conversation of the two of us. Why did this happen? What's the meaning of this story?

And then you sit and you say, what is in our relationship? Does our relationship have enough pulp still left that we can kind of, you know, still squeeze some juice out of this? Or do we look at each other and we like, you know, there is nothing to resurrect? And that's the story. The story is not just do you take that person back? It's not what, how is that partner to you? You, for example, I've seen stories. I mean, it's multi-star, you know, while the guy, in this case, it's a man, you know, has a relationship for about two years or so in the other women.

He's taking care of her dying mother. He's taking care of her alcoholic brother. I mean, he is the caregiver. And we find out a lot of why the affair was so interesting for him. But the fact was, it wasn't so simple to say, what an asshole. What a jerk. piece of shit because you've got different things happening all at the same time. And I think when people manage to still hold on to the good parts of the person,

there is a relationship that can be resurrected. When all they see is just this, it's very hard. When it's repeat offender, it's very hard. For me, it would be so big on the lie. You know, I think that it feels different than you got drunk at this bachelor party and you slept with somebody else as opposed to like, you're having a full-blown affair and you're texting when I'm making you dinner

with another woman and you're lying to my face every day. Like, can a person who lies to your face every day change? You know, like, I feel like that's where you can't shake the, like, you lied to me and betrayed me. That's who you are as a person. I guess that's how my mind would work. I'm like, I've always said this. You know, it would feel so different than having another full-blown

relationship as opposed to like you slept with somebody, you know, while we weren't doing great when you were out of town, you know, those feel so vastly different to me. And I'm sure that's just what's so hard to get over. I'm like, you're a sociopath. You know, you, you just looked to me in the face and lied to me for two years or whatever it is. So maybe some of it's like holding up a mirror, not to you, but to somebody and saying like, what did you do while I was doing that? Did you make me dinner? Like, were you sleeping with me? Did you acknowledge me to For sure, for sure. Right. It's 100%. There's two different stories there. There's like, I was being a great partner and I was not. Right. I think you're coming from that perspective. I was being a great partner and you

fucking lied to me every day. And I don't have this situation to speak on. So I, you know, I can't speak on it. So I'm just kind of, that's, I always think about that though. Like the line is the cardinal sin to me. One thing I can say to you is that whatever people think they will do and feel is not necessarily what happens to them. A hundred percent agree. Yeah. Because it happens in a context. And when that happens, you may be that person that says, I cannot. Every day I'm going to sit in front of you and I'm going to wonder if you're texting somebody else underneath the table. If when you go to the bathroom, you're actually going to the bathroom, et cetera.

And other people will say, we have a whole life and I don't want to lose that life. And they will also ask about the phone and everything. They will wonder if you went to that restaurant when they drive by it. They will wonder if, you know, if your partner took that person to the one place that was the most special place of you and that they trampled to the most sacred things that you share together, etc. And yet, it's an extraordinary thing. People overcome that crisis.

People reconnect. Part of my work was to go back to people I had seen two, five, ten years later and ask them, what happened to you? What happened to your relationships? Because most of the time the therapist kind of doesn't stay in the long, run of that. And it was very hopeful to see betrayals happen in relationships. Breaches of trust happen. There's all kinds of lies. For some people, this is an impossible life. For the other is the fact that you took whatever money we had and you gave it to your sister when we had nothing

ourselves and you knew that she was never going to give it back. How could you deplete us in this way? So this dynamic, the lies, there's variations thereof. And I don't think. there is a right answer. You know your integrity. You know what you can tolerate. But all I can say is when it happens, it happens in a context. And it is for some people very clear. They know exactly I'm out. I'm gone. Others, I have no choice. I stay. I have no job. Where am I going? I have a child with disability. Where am I going? I mean, and then you have others who are saying, watch me. Watch me. And now I'm going to make you work for this. relationship. I've seen that. I've seen, you know, I know a couple, they're married with

children, but he cheated and I just felt, I think there are a lot, but it's been years, but I think she really made him pay for it. And I, but that's, do you have any, I mean, this is such a loaded question, but how do you trust again? I mean, everybody's got to be so different. I mean, we're all wired differently. Trust is an active, you know, trust is a leap of fate. Trust is, is an active, as Rachel Butzman says it beautifully, it's an active engagement. with the unknown. If you need to know, you're not trusting. So if I need to know where you're going

and when you're coming back and how you're going to go from here to there, et cetera, et cetera, I'm surveilling you. That is not trust. It's a choice you're saying? Like, you have to choose? What is it that I need to trust? I don't just need to trust

that you're not going to do this again. That's one thing. But what I really need to trust is that you're thinking of me. What I need to trust is that you actually care of money. An infidelity is, is a loss of value.

I thought I mattered. And you made me feel like I mattered nothing. How could you forget? You were like sitting in that hotel and I didn't exist anymore. Your whole life disappeared when you would be in that hotel room. Did you not think about us?

Did you not think about the children? Did you not think about what that would do to me? That's the, you know. I feel like I'm going to cry. I just feel like so many people are going to listen to this in their car, be like, that's how I felt. Yes. And I mean, I cry.

I cry with the people. I feel it when they say it. I mean, I can cry when I say it because this is the hurt. The fact that you're not going to do it again. So, you know, you can have somebody who's never going to do it again. That doesn't mean they're going to touch you, talk to you, care about you, support you. So what? They don't do it again.

Right. They sit there like this. You want to log or you want a partner who really, so the trust. is feeling that I am valued again, that you think of me. It's the many, many little things you do that remind me that I'm on your mind. We're driving. We're going past the place. You see that face I have.

I don't have to ask you. And you say, no, I didn't come here. And then my nervous system relaxes. I know, you know that I know that you know. You know that I think and you go ahead of me. And I call that to be the vigilante of the relationship, you know, where you care about the relationship and you're making sure to protect the relationship. And that's an active job for a long time. I give it two years.

Two years? On the other person, on the, on the cheater to do. And on the trust membrane to come back. I love that you said that. It's not just I was the person who was cheated on. I have to forgive you. It's that you have to help me trust you again. I'll tell you another part about the trust.

There's another big one that I want, because you were saying, you know, I can imagine listening to this and people listening. When this happens and my whole reality, I'm sorry, is fractured. Like I can't think is this real, is the ground I stand on real. It's what I thought we had, what we had. Is where we were there, where we really there, or were you somewhere? And I ask you questions and I ask you questions. And often we ask it a multitude of times because we're trying to piece back

the reality. It's unbearable to the person who has to answer. No, I didn't. I've told you already. And then I say to the person who did go outside, I say, look, your partner isn't doing this to annoy you. Your partner is doing this because they just can't keep reality in their hand. It's falling through their fingers.

And so the mind makes them repeat it again and again and again. If you can answer, not from a place of, you know, it's been six months and you, you know, that can. anything. But just simply you say you're having an attack again, right? You're getting that thing again. And you just answer, that builds trust. Okay. Just going to take another quick break and we will get back into it. Okay. And it is coat season, everybody. If you were not watching on YouTube, get over there to see us all bundled up in our Columbia Amaze Puff jackets. So we are so obsessed with these and can't wait to be in the cold weather to wear them. Just got to pack these up.

heads of East Coast, but we both have the Amaze Puff long hooded jacket. Mine is in dark stone and rain is in black, and we love how warm and cozy and comfortable they are. And I just love how a long jacket looks in general. It's like so chic. Yes. And we do love the long, but the Amaze Puff coat also comes in a short and medium length as well. And they have 11 color ways. So you can pick your perfect look. And I love the soft material and the thumb holes. I love a thumbhole. And they're weather resistant. And if you can't tell, they are down jackets. So again, super warm. wearing a hug. You know, I'm not a hugger, but I love the way this jacket feels.

So maybe I'm turning a corner. She hugs now. Only am I amazed puff. Thanks, Columbia. So you guys head to Columbia.com to get your hands on an amaze puff jacket. They are tough on cold, soft on you. Okay. And this show is brought to you by BetterHelp.

With the holidays coming up, I can't recommend therapy more. I mean, whatever you want to address, whether it's sibling drama, I think a lot of people start to get really in their head about where they are in life when they go home for the holidays or in a relationship, what's your career look like. I mean, any way you could just talk to somebody and really just sort out how you're feeling, what are your goals. It's really helpful to just be able to talk to a therapist and better help therapists were according to strict code of conduct. They're fully licensed in the U.S. They have a therapist match commitment. So they do the initial matching work for you to focus on the type of therapy goals that you have.

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If you are ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start the journey. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com slash GGE. that's BetterHelpHELP.com slash G-G. Okay, and by now you have probably heard of built where you could earn points on your monthly rent payment, but did you know they make it possible for you to get more outside of your home too? So I have just been seeing this in more places. A lot of times at Workout Studios, I see it.

So I'd love to see the people support built and they use built. So by paying your rent through bill, you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed towards hundreds of hotels and airlines, a future rent payment, your next lift ride home, and more, like I mentioned, I've been seeing it in all these different workout studios, but it doesn't stop there. Built is about making your entire neighborhood more rewarding. You can dine out at your favorite local restaurants and earn additional points,

get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios, and enjoy exclusive experiences just for built members every month. Built is turning a monthly expense into an opportunity to earn rewards and discover the best your neighbor has to offer. Your rent is finally working for you. I mean, this is what I'm saying. It's all around my neighborhood. Literally everywhere.

Yeah. So you can earn points on rent and around your neighborhood, wherever you call home by going to joinbilt.com slash g-ge. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com slash G-G-E. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. And I'm sure that's a little bit more black and white, but what do you say to a person that says, I've been cheated on and I love my partner

and I can't let it go. I can't stop bringing this up. Every time we drive past this hotel, this restaurant, every time they're five minutes late, like I really want to be with him. I can't let it go. I'm so angry. There's a lot of things you say.

The first thing is, I mean, this is not in order here, but one is, tell me more about the anger. Is this just vis-à-vis him or her? Is this the first time? Do you have a history with this? Did this happen in your family? What fuels that level of anger? Is it because you have a partner who has never truly apologized and owned it? There is that.

That is often one of the main things that maintains the anger on the other side is on some fundamental level. I don't really feel like you get it. You apologize, but it's like, and you still feel entitled to it type thing, you know. So it's what fuels it, what holds it alive like that. But I have had situations where a person has done all the right things and the partner still can't let go. And sometimes, by the way, this is really a big piece of the hidden secrets of couples. It's because I picked you because I thought you wouldn't do this.

I keep making a sound place. I feel like I'm Michael Babaro in the daily. I'm like, yeah. I'm going to take it down a notch. Everything's just so profound. Sorry, I keep going on. Sorry, derailed you. You know that thing?

It's like, I didn't marry the guy or choose the guy or choose the woman that I really wanted to be with. It could be two men having the same conversation. For sure. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. We want to. You know, I chose you because I thought you were the safe choice.

And you betrayed the private. deal I made with myself. When you pick a partner, you often also have a deal that you make with yourself. And what sometimes makes it very hard for some people to forgive is actually less about what you did to me as about how mad I am at myself that I misjudged. And there's a narcissistic piece in that. And so you have people who have done everything, three, four years of all the making amends necessary.

And at some point they say, that. person is not letting the relationship be rebuilt and they end up leaving. Yeah. Do you say to people sometimes like neither of you are happy. You're not happy. You're never going to let this go. It's time to walk away. I don't say it like this because I don't think that I am the one who will measure happiness. And I don't think that happiness is really what all of this has to do with. But I will sometimes say, you know, resentment sometimes is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die. Yeah.

You are in a prison here together. Is that how you want to keep it going? Right. I can't help you with that. And then, I mean, we've had so many incredible therapists on the show. A lot of it is just like maybe this was never a match to begin with, you know, like when we talked to Ian of like maybe these people didn't pick each other in the right way to begin with.

And there is no repairing this relationship. Sometimes I've listened to your podcast. podcast. Yes. I just remind me of an episode. This is an incredible episode on where should we begin. The guy and the woman each had an affair with each other. They are a fair partner.

Oh, okay. They then decide to marry. They then have children. He also forces her to have a couple of abortions. He then has affairs on her. And she, we become clear, there is a, part of her that is determined to stay with him because somewhere she can't accept that she told her father

fuck off, I know what I'm doing and she made a mistake. Yeah. And at the end of the episode, I literally say to them, I think you have a better chance at being friends, but as a couple, I don't see it. I love that example of the ties back into obviously like ego and your own self of holding on to a relationship to prove something to someone,

like your father or your friends or... I mean, you're talking about matches and why we pick people. Sometimes you pick people, not because of the person you pick, but because of another person that you're saying something else to. Well, we know people that are in relationships,

it's like everybody hates the partner and it's like us against the world. They have like us that, you know, like, we're together and there's... You guys are all wrong about him. And I'm right, and you're so... You're like, you're two pot, committed to ever back down at that point.

What is the thing that has reached you in what we just described? I'm very curious where it landed on each of you. Probably the, you beat yourself up because you thought this person was different and you made a decision. So, I mean, Rana knows this about me. Like, I'm just part of myself. And so when I feel like I made a mistake or I feel like I didn't do something right, that's really.

You would be more angry at yourself than at the partner who betrays you. Right. I mean, I guess the betrayal too, but there's, I just, that really spoke to me because I hadn't totally thought about that of I picked you because I thought you were different because I thought you would be the person who was always going to love me and not betray me. And so like the anger at yourself too, like how did I, how did I go so wrong here? I guess that spoke to me. Yeah. Well, one of the things in your book, State of Affairs, it spoke to me the most that you even hammered home more today was that. just how unblack and white this is. And outside of my ex who just cheated on me for sport and for fun, there's so many layers to why we cheat and why we take people back and that there's two people in every relationship. And so much about reframing the word cheater

and looking at like why did they do these things. Ash and I always say we're not apologists for cheaters, you know, but this idea of like... Do I need to make that clear as well? No, you made it really. I wanted to bring the complexity out, but I am the last one to promote, to encourage to, you know, want to be very, very clear on that. It did not feel like that.

It just, this idea of that there's two of you in this relationship and, you know, everyone is contributing in a certain way and maybe one person cheats, but the other person might not have acknowledged you, had sex with you, told you they're proud of you for years. And so it's a very layered thing. And I think we think of cheaters as being terrible, you know, and it's not always that. And you don't cheat for sex, by the way. This is the other thing. It's very important to, you know, look, I tend to spend more time with people who have been

together for a while. Now I'm not talking about the young one year and a half relationship. But when people have been together, even if they want the sex, what they want is someone who finds me beautiful, who is interested in me, who enjoys touching me, who isn't just coming in out and not ever, ever wondering about my pleasure, who enjoys my experience, it's someone who makes me feel important, special, not lonely. It's that and true the sex. But the sex is the language for those feelings. It's not that in and of itself. For other people, it's an unencumbered sex,

a sex that is free of pain or free of obligation or free of anxiety. But it is always wrapped with something. Your guy, his issue is that he has zero regard for other people. That guy will use as a model, you know, go grow up and then come back and have a relationship. And we say that sometimes too, you know, Like we do have a lot of younger listeners. And sometimes it's the simple answer is that you guys are 21. You know what I mean?

So no one's ready for commitment. I did want to. But you can be ready for love at 21. Oh, for sure. That wasn't, I didn't mean to say that. Yeah. But sometimes it can just be as simple as that of this person needs to grow up.

Just because they cheated when they were 19 or 20, I cheated when I was 18 or 19 years old. I'm not like once a cheater, always a cheater. But I want to just, we don't have you much longer. But you brought up this thing. and I don't know if there's a short answer to this, but Rain and I have discussed this so many times and just what we talked about at the beginning of like the,

quote unquote, unrealistic expectations, like wanting all this from a partner. Is that just kind of self-talk and internal work and discussions with ourselves? And like that isn't really realistic? I mean, how do you combat that? Because it isn't realistic. It's a cultural thing.

So you can't address big cultural things just alone. You know, we have moved from caucus talking about our partners as best friends, which to me was always strange. Thank you, Esther. Go off. People have best friends. Today, I'm married my best friend. My best friend is right here. She's like, what? Yes, you have best friends. Your partner is your partner. But I understood that there was a cultural shift. I didn't come from that.

But now it becomes I'm marrying my soulmate. And you know, for most of history of soulmate and the one and only that was God. It wasn't a person. This notion that a person will become the place, where you're going to experience ecstasy and wholeness and meaning and transcendence, stuff that people looked for in the realm of the divine now becomes romantic love. So this is where we are and I just want, first of all, this is a model. This is not true. This hasn't always been this way and this is not this way.

A few borders further. Just we get that. Now from that point on, understand something. Have best friends. Have a community. What sustains a couple is the people around it as much as the people. people that and what happens between them have good relationships with other people who are meaningful to whom you can talk about things that you can't always talk to with your partner

because that's how it is. And if you have those people and you don't just use them to complain about your partner, but to amplify, to complete the relationship and especially for the dudes because they're the ones who lose their friends more than the girls. And they become isolated and their girls are like the woman is the primary person, the minister, social affairs basically that connects them two men different dynamic on that one but stay in touch with your close friends from before i ask so many people how often do you see your friends and alone not always as a couple alone you have relationships with these people some of them from college some of them from school from way back when keep that it's very very important that's the

beginning because that's an easy thing to do and don't think that if your partner wants to go see somebody it means you're not enough. Once you go with you're not enough, I should be everything for you. You have swallowed the model whole and the model will eat you up alive. I love that and I'll say one last thing. My parents have been married for 40 years.

We really think they're like the anomaly and their secret when people ask is that they have separate lives outside of each other and so many other relationships outside of each other. And they're just apart doing their own things. And what is the knot that they have as well? Because that is a model that I value very much.

They're together a lot too. I mean, we have our family. We're a really close family. They do travel together and they enjoy the same things. That's right. But they have a separate. Yeah, they have a van diagram in which there's a strong core and then big circles of individuality.

And those often are relationships that sustain. But sustain is one thing. 40 years is nice, but longevity is not the only marker of success. It's that they're alive. They're the best. They're alive. What you want in a relationship is energy and aliveless. You don't just want it to not be dead.

They're alive. They are just the best. That's right. Well, it's what we've hammered home on this show for three and a half years and you've hammered home for us also, which is just to have a life that you're excited about outside your partner and your partner will complement those things. That's a great place to start.

If you measure that and you see there's something missing in my relationship, and every time you go somewhere else, it's because you think it's missing. you're doing yourself a real disservice. So a lot of the, you know, I'm doing couples therapy almost 40 years. I know it's about helping people reconnect with the sources of meaning and joy that are important in their lives, that are away from the partners so that when you come back, you've got something to tell, you've got energy to bring into the relationship.

Otherwise, people sit there with each other. Have you sat in restaurants? We watch those couples all the time. That's all I do. I will sit in a restaurant with Ashley and just be like, look at that couple, look at that And they don't have anything to talk about because they didn't do anything outside of each other. You know, absolutely.

And then I watch them at lunch, and I see, you know, when people, which used to still have lunch and meetings and stuff, and you would see people sitting across each other well-dressed and alive and energized and engaged with each other. And I always would ask myself, and which one of them is here with their partner? Uh-huh.

Very few. Oh, shit. And then, you know. This feels like a good time to tell people where to find your podcast. your box. Esther Porell.com. The podcasts, Estherparell.com slash podcast, Spotify, or anywhere where you listen to your podcasts. Okay. Well, hope you guys enjoyed this re-release and this unearthed video that I found for you. And I mean, it's just, you know, it was incredible to rewatch and relisten for us as well.

So we hope you guys enjoyed it. Yes. Congrats to you. And if you guys are interested in more Esther Porell official is her Instagram, State of Affairs, and Mating and Captivity are two of her books. They're both phenomenal. And her podcast, where should we begin? Is everywhere you find podcasts? So lots of ways to access. My mom, Esther, Perl. Yeah.

Mother. She is mother. She's my mother. And Girls Gotta Eat.com. Get those tickets for our two and two only holiday shows in New York and L.A. in December. Girls Got to Eat podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I am Ash Hess.

Not changing my name. Is he changing his name? What if he hyphenated his name? He doesn't like that joke. Well, yeah, it was like when you introduce those, is it like Hustletons? Mr. and Mrs. Heseltine. Azul's parents. I'm Ash Huss.

Raina is ranadjohnberg. Subscribe on YouTube and share this episode with a friend. And we will see you Thursday. I won't be here. Raina's going to have a guest host. Yes, I am. So it's going to be a super fun episode of the snack. Don't like it too much for you guys.

But it'll be a friend of ours. It'll be a repeat guest. Yes, it'll be great. So I will see there. Have a good week, I. Bye.