Girls Gotta Eat - Dating as a WOC and Fetishization feat. Amy Chan

Episode Date: March 29, 2021

On this episode, we are sharing stories from our listeners about dating as a woman of color, from messages they receive on apps to partners not understanding their experiences to fetishization. We're also bringing on a former (and favorite) guest Amy Chan, founder of Breakup Bootcamp, to discuss her experience growing up as an Asian woman, feeling shame as a child to leaning into the sexy stereotypes as a young woman, and her mindset today. We also discuss how to talk to your partner about these topics. And before we dive in, we're up to our usual antics with a divorced dude date story from Rayna, Ashley being single-shamed, and a tip for taking your phone sex to the next level. Enjoy! Follow Amy on Instagram @MissAmyChan and check out Renew Breakup Bootcamp as well as her book. Follow us @GirlsGottaEatPodcast, Ashley @AshHess, and Rayna @Rayna.Greenberg. Check our website for show dates and merchandise. Thank you to our partners this week: Allform: To find your perfect sofa and get 20% off all orders, go to allform.com/gge. Pretty Litter: Use code GGE for 20% off your first order at prettylitter.com. FabFitFun: Get $10 off your first box at fabfitfun.com with code GGE. Dipsea: Get a 30-day free trial when you go to dipseastories.com/gge. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It was okay, like be in this mold of the sexy person that they want. And I just never stopped to be like, hey, how is this affecting me? Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat. Welcome back. I saw that you just opened the weather app. Oh, my God. That is so embarrassing. Somebody wrote and said, I missed the weather updates.

And I thought you were getting ready to spit some weather updates. Somebody wrote, yeah, bitch, I saw it. It's in our joint email. That's why I opened the weather app. Why do you, you're putting me on blast so hard right now. You know my favorite thing is when you ask me if I saw an email? Like, I don't spend 24 hours a day in our, you're like, you see this email. Yeah, Ashley, I spend 24 hours a day reading our emails.

I don't have time to do anything besides that. Sometimes I'll be in our email on my laptop and it comes in like in real time and I do see it before you. It's once a quarter. But listen. After one o'clock in the morning. Someone did. If you email at 3 a.m., it's coming straight to me. Sometimes I will wake up and see that you responded at 2 a.m. to somebody.

But someone. one yes, that they missed the weather. I just can't believe you called me out like that. I don't know, guys, March is unpredictable. Hot day. That's so funny because Francis, his birthday just passed, but he was like, I want to have a birthday party and I want to do either April 3rd or April 10th. And I said, you can't do the 10th.

Rain and I have a wedding. And I said, we'll be there the third. So it's the third, right? And he was like, oh, man, I kind of wanted to do it later. so just a better chance that the weather will be warmer. And I was like, listen, with April weather, there's no guarantees. The only guarantee is it rain and I will not be there in the 10th. I like that you RSP for us as a couple.

Well, I just know that we are top to your guests. Every time you say top to, top to your friends. It's just funny when someone's like, hey, you know, I'm thinking to doing this thing on this date or this date. And if I can't make one of those dates and I really want to come, I'm going to like really push. Like some people will be like, if I can't make it, it's no big deal. I'm like, no, no, no, we're going to go at this date. I know it's your birthday. You push holidays and birthdays.

You're like, I read the weather almanac for the last 100 years. I feel like I threw some shade. I'm like, I mean, you could do it the 10th, but it won't be fun. Okay. So I just realized that last week I also brought up Francis because it was like his birthday and my mom. The birthday is like one day apart, 26 and 27th. That being said, it just jogged my memory that the

27th, so just days ago, Cindy Heseltine turned 69. Get out of here. Yes, it's turned 69. We're going to text her at her birthday. God damn it. Brena, it won't be, damn it. Just leave this in. It's still.

You're recording. You are so lucky that your parents think that's funny because my mom and my stepdad are 69 and it's been a whole year of me not be able to make these jokes. I texted my brother. I'm like, do you think that they're going to think this is funny? And he was like, Brian, get out of here. I know. You're so lucky.

Yeah. My parents are like one year apart. So my mom will turn 69 or she just turned 69. Then my dad will be 70 in July. So that's a big one. Your dad didn't let me make a 69 joke. That's true. Thank God for your dad.

Yeah. But it was also like, it was a pandemic, you know, can't throw any lip parties. We didn't have a big party. But at least 60th was I showed you the cake. Like we did, we went all out. We had it in Dewey and it was like that was like. You wore a sundress. Yeah.

A bubble dress. I still remember it. A bubble. We used to wear bubble clothing. Ashley, I used to wear a. bubble clothing with polka dots from wet seal. That was all I wore for years. It's so insane. Like, all you want to do is like be slimming and flattering and we would wear stuff that was a bubble. A bubble. And by the way, I have double-d titties. So it's even bigger on somebody that just has a tent hanging off of their body.

It's like, take this lumpy bag that's shapeless and make it worse. It's so bad. I can't even. How did I get fucked those 10 years ago? That was the town here sleeping with me. I mean, you saw my eyebrows looked like back then. It is wild. same girl. Okay, so before we get into it, just a couple of housekeeping things, we have some shows coming up. Yay, live shows. I don't know why didn't make the noise.

I know, I was like, wow, that really fell flat. I was like, yay. Guys, it's raining out. Yeah, I'll tell you where it's not raining, Florida. And we have shows there in May. We're so excited. You guys know this is like, we have not been on the road since last year.

So it's like our big coming out, coming back out on the road. Like our sweet 16. I know. So we have Miami on Sunday, May 2nd, two shows, Tampa, May 5th, two shows, and Orlando, Thursday, May 6th. Again, two shows every single night. There's going to be an early show, a late show. They're both going to be popping.

The tickets are going fast. I think there's one show Miami that may have sold out. And so we want you guys to get on these and scoop them up while they're still available. We can't wait. So much fun stuff planned. Yeah, we're going to take shots out of each other's titties. Well, you can take a shot out of. I can't take shot out of yours. As always, you guys can get tickets and everything at

Girls Got Eat Podcast.com. If you're a newer listener, we have everything on there for you. All the past episodes, if you want to search through, great merch. We're going to do some new merch for the springtime. And of course, all the live shows and everything is there. You can stay up to date with everything from our newsletter. You'll sign up on the website, Girls Got Eat Podcast.com. All right. Okay, so you have something to tell me. Yes. Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited to tell you this. And I promised our audience that I was only dating divorce guys, which I have delivered on. And we got a lot of messages from girls being like,

yeah, girl, like, go fuck divorce guys. They're amazing. I know. And people did validate me on that, like, being the first person post-divorce and it not working out. Like, this girl kind of sent me this sob story on how it didn't work out for her. And I was like, I'm so sorry, but thanks for validating me as well.

Yeah. Well, actually, what's important is that you were right. I did not write that back. Can you imagine she writes this thing? I'm like, what's important here is that one is right. No, but she was like, it's so true. like, I wish I was, she was like, I wish I would have known. Because she was like, I felt that kind of.

You know, you have a feeling of like, is this person just kind of going so hard on me because they're rebounding? But, like, one of our girlfriends is dating somebody who's recently divorced and he is just living out all of his sexual fantasies on her that he can get to do in the divorce. He, the other day, I told her I was going to say this on a podcast, whatever. Oh, you did? Okay. He's, like, living out all these, like, crazy sexual fantasies.

She's so sweet. And, like, I don't think of her as, like, a real sexual deviant. And she told me the other day that this, guy wrapped his phone in cellophane and then videotaped himself jerking off so he could come at the phone. That is wild. That's what we're dealing with with divorce guys. Well, and I said to you, I said, I would think that there is no more sexually frustrated person male or female than someone that's in a sexless marriage. If you're not cheating, if you're staying faithful and you're with a partner that you're married to and you're not having sex, like there's nothing that feels probably

more lonely, sexually frustrated, isolating than that. So when you get out of that situation, you're coming at your phone. You're coming on your phone. And yesterday morning, she was like, do you want to see like what we were sexting about? She's just sending me pages of his sex. I can never meet this guy. I'm going to have like, I'm going to need him. I'm going to have one sip of alcohol.

I'm going to be like, don't say it. Don't say it. I've seen your dick. And I've seen you come out of it. Towards an iPhone. Actually, I did not watch the elephant come video. I can't listen. that anybody else besides my man, I can't watch that. I love it. Honestly, like, I love it.

I loved it to that whole process. That guy should have been like a TikTok. Here's how to come on your phone. And he's like wrapping his phone up. Like that it's such a little cute arts and crafts project that this guy's wrapping his phone up in plastic wrap so he can jerk off over it and come on it. It's hysterical. She was like so proud. This is like a dad. She was like so proud. She's like he's so smart and innovative. He's like an engineer because he thought of that. Because kids, it's like, it's the school project. Listen, guys, I hope you love these ideas. I hope you're doing with your partners.

I hope they make it. I do. She is the first one post-divorce, so I hope that they're the exception to the role. I think about it all the time. I think about all the time. So the people that I have been seeing have both been, I've been seeing on dating anybody, but I am about a year out from the divorce with most of the people that.

Most, most. It's so funny. You have this, like, a stable of men. No, I'm actually. consistently talking to one divorce guy who I actually like a lot, but I'm super on board with it. Thank you. Thank you. I just have a good vibe about it.

I do too. I hope he never does anything terrible. But I did go on a date and a listener saw me there. And I'm very excited to reach his email because I never read it to you. Okay. This was a divorce guy, which this is what I do. Right. It's not somebody I'm like serious.

It's actually like a friend of mine that like I used to date when we were like in college. And so we went out at night. Because he's hot. Because he's single now. Yeah. Yeah. Mostly because I was just hoping we could like snap a pick for his ex-wife in bed together because I hate her.

I've met her. Co-sign. Yeah. Thank you. Oof. Yuck. Just she's yucking on the inside. I'm not like a body-shaming thing.

Yeah, no. She's cute. Pretty. Yeah. Okay. So this girl writes me an email. So I got spotted by a fan. This is pretty crazy.

Like you and I get seen in New York a lot. because a lot of our audiences in New York. I was out of town at a dive bar in the middle of nowhere. I don't know how somebody saw me. So him and I were like alone. We're hanging out, whatever. We go on this date the next morning. I get an email from somebody.

It is 7.39 in the morning. This girl woke up and wrote this email the minute she woke up. The subject line is a rain of sighting. The message starts with Tuesday, March, 2021. Oh, my God. My boyfriend and I at our local sports bar that we frequently regular. We sat down and within five minutes. He says,

that Raina, I looked to my left and lo and behold, it's Raina Greenberg sitting there with a great looking guy. Whether you were on a date, probably not. I read that and I was like, bitch, what? What? There is friends most likely. As much as I wanted to say hi, because we love you and the podcast, we even saw your show. We couldn't help us stare over every once in a while that you guys were drinking and eventually you couldn't keep your hands off of each other. Oh my God, they watched the whole thing. There was a lot of making out. No. This is, can you have Imagine being like a fan of someone and you watch this happen. I had like eight tequila.

Ashley, I was so drunk. I mean, I wasn't like falling down. They were very small drinks. But we were there for like four hours. Okay. And this did not look like a friendship date. We were all over each other. Yeah.

This, when she said maybe a date, maybe I was like, maybe not a date. I was like, bitch, what, do you have eyes? Yeah. Like we have never had a platonic minute with each other in our whole lives. I mean, this guy. It was a lot of making it. out. Either way, we were excited to see you and want to say hi, but at the same time, respect you being out. I even almost followed you into the bathroom, but then I refrained

you. We love you. Hope you had a great trip. That is what a treat for her to see you in action. Like to see, like we talk about dating, like we talk about dating and sex and making out and she saw you in the wild doing it. I mean, she listens to me for dating guys. It's like going and watching Arod play on the baseball field. It's like seeing Beyonce do karaoke. Honestly, I'm happy to report. That guy's so hot. Like, if anybody was going to see me on a date with somebody, I would hope it would be him. Yeah.

And I just, I, if that were me, if I were you, I would have loved the bathroom follow in. Like, you know me. I'm all about, like, making friends in the bathroom. You too? If she was like, girl, I lose in your pockets. That guy's hot as shit. I know. I know, girl.

And it's funny because I said to him, because we were in the most random dive bar in the middle of nowhere. And he was like, do people like recognize you bars all the time? I was like, yeah, but no one's got, who the fuck is going to see me here. Like we talked about it. Yeah. I love that she, like, she probably got a little drunk, too, you know, if they were there for four hours too, as they watched you guys like, fuck at the table.

And then she, so she got home and she was probably like tried to write that email. And she was like trying to keep one eye open. She was like scene double. And so she woke up at 7 a.m. And would like bang that email out. 7 a.m. I could not wait to tell you. It was the first thing I opened my eyes and saw.

That is amazing. I'm so glad I got it just feels like, you guys, when I hold something back from Ashley, it like kills me. It's so like, don't I tell her it's like giving birth? It feels so good. Well, I have a funny story for you that I haven't told you. So this happened. This is like a week or two ago at this point. I've been occasionally using a driver. This isn't like some, I'm not fucking flying private. It's the same price as like an Uber SUV. But it's a private driver and it's wonderful. And it's like I feel like I get to kind of support this man's small business rather than giving my money to Uber or Lyft. And it's great. You know, we've used them a couple times. Like if I'm going somewhere that's kind of farther away and I want to have a nice comfy car and I can work in the back of it. I've been using this driver. Rob uses him. He's incredible. He's amazing. So I was in the car with him and we're just kind of like getting to know each other. Like we were talking. He is from Indonesia. He's from Jakarta. He was just telling me his whole story. Like he came here without his wife and kids and then they were able to come here four years later. He's been in the States for 10 years.

And I was like coming up so glad like your family finally got to come over here and you're, you know, making it. And then he goes, you know, are you single, Ashley? And I was like, I'm single. Yeah. I'm single. Yeah. I'm single. and he was like, Ashley, you need to get a boyfriend. And I was like, yeah, I, I've been tried the tone. The tone is though you, you weren't aware. Like, he was like, his tone was literally like, you should try this thing out. Yeah, that's what I want to know.

Like, was he like, you know, you should try carbon neutral fuels and you were like, I never thought of doing that. Yeah, it's like, oh, really, gondo. I hadn't been trying. Like, there was this, like, you had this problem and there was no solution for it. He was like, I have this idea. Like, I busted out laughing. Like, I feel like that moment really bonded us of him being like, oh, Ashley, you should

get a boyfriend. Did you tell him how old you are? I mean, I think he... And he was like, you're too old to be single. It's gross. No, he was just like, you know, he was probably like, she's cool and he probably like, attractive enough. You know, I think he was just like, oh, you should look into this.

Hot take. Thank you so much. I like lost it. I was like, yeah, no, I'm trying. It's such a generational thing. My landlord of my last buildings had that to me too. She's like, how old are you again? I was like 30, you know, 100 years ago.

And I was like, and she was like, and you're still single. And I was like, uh-huh. And she was like, you really got to get on it. Like, I was like, oh, thank you. I feel like I felt it coming. Like, I feel like as soon as I was like, I said that I'm single. Like, I like knew that's what he was going to say. And I'm zero percent offended.

Like that should is so funny to me. Oh, it's so funny. I don't care. If somebody my own age said that to me, I'd be like, take a high. That is so funny. So anyway, just me and my driver. You guys were bonded. He's like, actually,

um, boyfriends, have you ever heard of them? And also, by the way, that's just like 6 a. Like, whatever. It's not important.

You're not ready to get hit with that. Right. When they hit you with the shit and then I didn't even have coffee. I was like, okay. You know what?

It's a little early. That's how I thought about this email and she was like, were you on a date? Probably not. And I was like, I almost kind of like that she initially thought

that it wasn't a date and then she saw you over there like sucking face. Yeah, We were there for four hours, three hours and 45 minutes of it was just making out. I don't even know if we talked much. Okay. Those are our stories.

And we, you guys, if you saw the episode description, you know what we're discussing today, a little bit heavier topic. But we are glad to be able to do it and share your stories and also bring on our dear friend Amy Chan. And we are going to get into that. We kind of just wanted to like knock this lighter stuff out of the way first. And we do have some recommendations. So do you have three?

I have three. I have a heavy recommendation list this. So you have three, it's funny because you have three all the same and I have three kind of like all the same in the same category. So do you want to kick out? Yeah, well, mine are more serious and yours are more like light and fun. So I'll do the more serious stuff and then you can like bring people back to like happiness. No, I just, I had a long week of documentaries. Actually, I have a fourth recommendation. Oh God. Okay, the first one really quick. Nate Bargotsie has a new special on Netflix. He is one of our favorite. Tennessee kid was one of my favorite specials ever. He is a new special on Netflix. So check that out. You guys will have. so hard. He's fantastic. The last blockbuster is a documentary. Also on Netflix about the last blockbuster. It's in Bend, Oregon.

It's about the managers to trying to keep it alive. It's so nostalgic. It brought me back to being a kid. We went every Friday night. You spend like an hour in Blockbuster. I remember the smell. Oh my gosh. It was really, it was nice. It was nice to share that my mom. If you guys want to read that, if you guys want to watch that, or you can also read the history of Netflix, which

is called This Never Work. I told you that there was a meme. Because Netflix made this documentary about blockbuster dying essentially. And the meme was like, imagine making a documentary about the person you killed. I said to my brother, we got such a good laugh. They address it in the documentary about how like Netflix didn't actually put them out of business. And also.

Of course, of course. That's just like, that's a very like kind of hysterical. Like, yes. Like technically, no. Just like if you really look into it, same thing with Uber's in the cab system. Like there's more to it. Yes. I just remember.

So this is like. people, only people, I feel like in my hometown will know this, we were not even a Blockbuster family. We did a place called Video Scene. It was more of like a smaller franchise. My parents were against what, I don't know, like big, big movie, big rental. Yeah. And, but when I would go with a friend to Blockbuster, it was bigger, it was better, it was brighter, it was more of a scene in there. Because I was like, I mean, video scene, they did have a ball pit for a minute. So that was like a lit Friday night. But I remember even going to Blockbuster with like the first night, like, this guy ever went to second base with me.

Like the first time someone ever felt my boobs, like, outside of a blockbuster or after a blockbuster? We went to get a movie. Like, we'd already made out, like, on a date. We'd already, like, went on a couple dates. But, like, this was the first time we rented a movie and went back to his house. And his parents weren't home. And, like, he touched my boobs.

And it was just like, I just remember that night being like, oh, my gosh, like, we're ready to movie. We're going to, like, go watch it and, like, hook up. Like, the moments that, like, I just, the nostalgia. Yeah, I'd like, love nostalgia more than anything. When they talked about the smell, it really hit me. And then texting my mom about it and being like, do you remember the snack try? You'd bring me in Ireland in the basement and, like, you felt up a snack.

And then just people travel to it. It's like a tourist destination now. Oregon has some crazy shit. Like that's where the Goonies were filmed. Like they have some like really just cool nostalgic like landmarks. Ashley and our Oregon stands. We love Portland so much. I see you every day.

Okay. So my next one is Operation Barcy Blues. Also on Netflix. It's a deep dive into basically the fraudulent. methods of the Skybrick singer to get kids of rich and famous people into colleges. You guys probably know this because Lori Loughlin and Felicity Hoffman were prosecuted for this. You're trying to get their kids into schools. And just all, I really like that they focus on all the ways that rich people sort of like

throw their money around and how people with money just obviously have access to more things into gaming the system and to gaming standardized testing and things like that. I thought it was really interesting. It's a dramatization. But they take all the transcripts of all the phone calls that he had with all these parents and that's the script for the movie, which I thought was really well done. So you posted on Instagram that it was one of the best dramatizations you've seen, and I have to agree. So I watch this with my parents. I was my parents last week and we watched it as family after you recommended it. And it took

me a minute to even realize it was a dramatization. I thought, I was like, wait, how was this filmed? It feels really real because you and I really didn't love the dramatization aspect of the social dilemma. It felt really weird and forced and like the aliens and it was just weird. So you guys will love that. That's just one, maybe like hour and up documentary. And the last. one is Alan versus Farrow. It's a four-part mini-series on HBO. It shook me to my core. I think I didn't really know a lot about Woody Allen growing up other than that he like married his stepdaughter. But the relationship with him and Mia Farrow is this like 12 year long really interesting situation. He molested their seven-year-old daughter and it's about like that case essentially. I don't think

this was like highly publicized when we were kids or maybe the narrative was just like Mia Farrow is this crazy person and Woody Allen like all he wants to do is like, protect his kids. He had to take her to court trying to sue for custody of the kids. It's highly documented that he did these things by babysitters, family friends, psychiatrists. There's dozens of people on record saying that he did abuse her. And he was never really prosecuted for it. And he didn't really pay any penalties for it. And then he married her daughter, a different daughter. So I really, I mean, it's really, it's hard to watch. But I think important. I was talking my mom about this. My mom was like, well, Mia Farrow was a crazy person.

I was like, but I don't think that you even knew it wasn't publicized. All these people corroborated that this is just like a powerful white man that got away with murder, basically. I mean, just look at the track record of Harvey Weinstein and Roger Ailes. It's like, we've come so far. I mean, we talk about this all the time. It's like there was no taking down those powerful white men back then in the 80s, 90s, whatever. Like, thank God we're doing it today. But that wasn't a thing that could happen.

Even a few years ago, people knew that Woody Allen did this. Like this was like highly publicized. So all these actresses and actors have donated their salaries from the movies they've done with him. Oh, okay. And have, like, renounced him and won't do movies with him anymore. But I don't know, even up until, like, a couple of years ago, all of these, like, pretty modern actresses were still doing movies with him. So it's like, you knew.

So check it out. All three of them, plus the Nate Bargazzi special, really fantastic. Okay. I have three teen movies or shows. So I just love that these are all in the same category. Teen content. You guys know I love stuff about high school. The thing that I love about all of these, we are just seeing the Sonata Hot Take, so much more inclusivity.

Like, you look at mean girls, of course, still love mean girls, but it's all white. And there's a lot of stereotypes and, you know, teen movies of the past. We're just growing as a society. It's beautiful to see. But it's really great to see the shows about kids and teens, like showing so much more diversity. So I just love that. The first one is Moxie. It's a movie on Netflix.

It's directed by Amy Polar and she also acts in it. It's about this team. teenage girl. She notices the sexism in her school and she just kind of takes it on and kind of leads this revolution in the school. There's just like so much girl power. The whole vibe is like fuck the patriarchy. And it's just it's really inclusive with the girls that are on that are in the movie. It tackles toxic masculinity, harassment. It even does tackle rape. But at the end of the day, it's just like ultimately like super uplifting. I was like crying the whole time. I loved every minute of it. And then there's the two all the boys trillel.

that's on Netflix, and these are based on books by an author named Jenny Han. You guys probably know this. There's, to all the boys I've loved before is the first one. And then the two sequels are, to all the boys, P.S., I still love you, and to all the boys, always and forever. I still haven't watched Always and Forever, but I've watched the first two, and I just love them. It's about this teenage girl. She is an Asian-American girl.

Her dad is white, and he is Aiden from Sex and the City. And her mom, her mom has actually passed. But she writes these love letters to these guys, and they accidentally get sent out. And then it's, like, kind of what happens. I won't spill the whole details, but, and it's like her journey. And the first two movies are in high school and I think she goes to college and the third one. But the ultimate vibe to me is like very like make your move, shoot your shot. Like she kind of wrote these secret letters that worked out in her favor because she kind of thought these boys would never like her.

And it turns out that they did. So it's just I love that that whole message. And I just love those movies and I can't recommend them enough. They're just like feel good. And then the third one is Ginny and Georgia. Ever heard of it? I've ever heard of it? So many you guys DM me about this, like to watch it.

yes, I know about the Taylor Swift thing. Don't DM me. But I mean, it didn't hold me that from watching it. So I'll leave it at that. Yeah. Same. So I loved it. The main character is this biracial teenager and it's about her life with her crazy mom who's

kind of like always they've moved around a lot and it's like her going to high school and trying to fit in. And this I also think addresses like a lot of important topics, race, sex, homosexuality, being a child of this like quote unquote broken like chaotic. family. The characters are flawed. Like, it's not like a Gilmore Girls. It's not like a every, I mean, again, I never watched Girlmore Girls, but like I feel like it was a little like, everything's happy. We were gossip girls, mainly. We were gossip girls. Gigi means gossip girls for us. But like there's like some darker stuff. It's a little darker. There's some like murder.

Like it's good. And I loved it. And I watched it with my mom. We both loved it. I think it's again great just to show the inclusivity. And I just love how these team movies are evolving. And We are talking about women of color today, and we are focusing on Asian women. And I think that just how Asian people in general are being portrayed in these movies is so important. So for one, the lead actress, and to all the boys, is an Asian girl. She's the protagonist lead actress. And then in Ginny and Georgia and Moxie, the love interest is an Asian male. So I just think about this all the time.

I think about this. We talked to Brian Park, how like Asian men have never been seen. is like, I mean, in the past, like the hot boyfriend, you know, in the past, like, movies and media and how we were saying insecure was one of the first shows to really do that. So I'm always taking note of this stuff. And it's like, I mean, they're high schoolers. So just, you know, they're kids. But like, they're these like good looking, cool Asian dudes that are like desirable. And again, we did a whole episode in this with Brian Park and you guys can look back that was in the summer. But like, I just notice it because we come from a very white teen

movie upbringing. You know what I mean? 100%. I mean, I want to talk about a little bit more, like, later in the episode, but just representations of minorities just in general on television. And when you look at like all these, all these, especially like dating stuff, but like real housewives, it never even like occurred to me. There's no representation of anybody on television other than Orlando. They picked one franchise and they made them all black. It's like, why is this not?

They finally, they have one Asian person in the Dallas one now. Like, it's slowly happening. Yeah. But it's nice to see it and think like, I didn't even think that. deeply into it for so long, but now you see it. It's important and that makes me happy. Well, it's important for the kids and teenagers to see characters who look like them on TV. I'm thinking of Mindy Kaling show, Never Have I Ever. The lead is an Indian American teenage girl and all shows like this. There's just a lot more. And so we obviously love to see it. And I look forward to a time and

that will be this generation that's growing up where like it's so normal that they wouldn't even think it's revolutionary. Do you know what I mean? Like to me I see this and I'm like, this is so great and important, but that generation will just think this is the norm. It will be like how I felt seeing like gay people on TV because like when I first saw Will and Grace and I was like oh like representations of homosexuals on television. Like I had never seen it

and now like no one would think twice. Of course half the cast is gay and a lot of shows. Right. Like in Moxie like these two girls kiss and you're like it's not a big deal. Right. You know what I mean? It's not so revolutionary so I look forward to a time where people don't even have to talk about how revolutionary this is. Yeah. Yeah exactly. I know like that's the thing. Like

this should be the norm but I also think it's nice to bring attention to like the evolution. 100%. All right. I'm sure you were something. Should we start? Yeah. I just, I mean, yeah, so just given what's going on in the world,

I think we all have become aware that there's been a rise in anti-Asian violence and hate crimes and the devastating shooting in Atlanta in which eight people lost their lives, six of those people being Asian women. I don't even know. These things happen. I don't have the words. Like, devastating isn't like enough of a word. You know what I mean?

It's like horrifying. It's like disgusting. It like keeps me up at night. Like I'm not going to get into gun control today. We'll save that for another time. But that was kind of like the precipice of what had been happening where people were getting beat up on the streets. Like the elderly. Like I feel so sick about what's going on that like anyone, not just Asian people, anyone like black, brown.

Asian would ever feel unsafe or that their family or their friends were unsafe just simply because of the color of their skin, because the way they look, that they couldn't walk around their neighborhood, that someone might jump them. You know, like, it just, there's just so much, like, disgusting, like, hate and white supremacy and misinformation and ignorance and colonialism in this country. And there always has been. But, like, it obviously was so emboldened by the former administration and like a year of the president blaming the pandemic on China. Like, yeah, look what happened. And people like making jokes and playing into it. And it's just like, I hate it so much. Like, I feel so angry. I want to just channel that anger into like actionable

things and, you know, posting on our platforms talking about on this podcast, donating to different organizations and help and trying to help. This is just brought racism against Asians to the forefront of conversation, which of course is like much needed. And it's reminiscent of what we discussed with Fred Smith on our episode in June about racism more geared towards black people and how he said that these things happen and they get put on the world stage and people are are sharing more of how they're feeling and how they've always felt when these things get brought to light. I mean, it's it's always disgusting that people lose their lives or they get hurt for these conversations to happen. But it's important that we have.

have them. So change can happen and we can progress and move forward. And I mean, it goes out saying that there is so much good in the world. Like I think we see that every day too. But obviously it just takes a few bad people to cause a lot of harm. Yeah. And, you know, we are really honored to have a platform to talk about these things. Of course, we're going to talk about fetish ascent. That is a tough one. That word takes me like, I have to take a deep breath. We're going to talk about fetishizing Asian women, we're going to use your words to tell your stories. Ashton, I can only do so much. We are white women. And, you know, I will say, I didn't realize how big of a problem this was. And that's my white privilege, you know, to have your head in the stand and not really

realize how terrible things are for certain groups of people. And I grew up in the Northeast, where I thought it was pretty accepting. I don't ever see anybody openly do anything terrible towards a minority. In New York City, you just wouldn't see it that often. But again, it's your privilege to not know those things as a white person. And I feel like the really important thing is it's being talked about. It's being brought to the forefront that our listeners are emailing us, that we have guests that will come on the show and talk about this. And I'm really honored to be able to uplift these voices and give them a platform because these are really important conversations to have. And you have to check all these voices that are doing things like

calling this the Kung Flu. And these are minorities and small business owners that have suffered throughout this pandemic because of those words. And those words are, they're impactful and they're meaningful and you have to fight those words. Yeah. And to your point about kind of not knowing what's going on is like you really can live in a bubble that is New York City where you don't, I mean, granted, there things are happening in Chinatown that we see now, but where you really don't see and hear these things, you know. I don't surround myself with people that would say things like that. Exactly. And, you know, my own experience that I can compare it to is, you know, I grew up Jewish and we are a minority and I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood. All my friends were Jewish. I went to a Jewish school.

My temple was the Tree of Life temple, which was violently attacked years ago. And I didn't realize people hated Jews because everybody around me was a Jew. And it was fun to be Jewish. And it was cool to be Jewish. And even if I dated people that weren't Jewish, their parents would poke fun at me for like cute stuff.

But it felt like loving. It didn't feel like a microaggression. It felt like they wanted to learn about my culture. And I didn't realize that people hated Jews or didn't know Jews. And it just, it was a cool thing to be Jewish where I grew up. So when I, and I also, came from a family that never would have said a terrible thing about any minority.

My parents are completely intolerant of any type of racism, especially spoken words of racism. I didn't grow up around anybody that would have said anything like that towards any minority. So it wasn't until I went to college in Indiana that I even met people that said, like, I've never met a Jew before. Yeah. I've never, like, been around black people before. I didn't know that people were like that. Yeah.

I just thought, like, everybody's tolerant of everyone because that's how I grew up. Yeah. I love that you shared that. When it comes to all this, you know, I think we're all learning. I'm constantly learning. You know, my personality is to be, you know, kind of loud and blunt and I try to be funny and self-deprecating. And I'm also so interested and curious about other cultures. And just in general, I'm a person who always just wants to know everybody's story. You know, there was like a guy that I ended up dating fucking and the first thing I asked him that night was like, South Dakota, what's that about?

You otherized him? But that's just a... You're a... A white guy that's... You know, he lives in the United States. I just was like, I'm so curious about, like, people's story. I ask them so bluntly. So I just...

I have to be careful with being like, what's that about? Okay, well, I was glad that I knew about this. I ask you what's that about all the time now. He was... I think it turned him on. He felt like I roasted him about being from South Dakota. I don't know what that's about, but I know more now. But no, and this...

I'm just joking. I just want to make Rayna laugh. Like, we're not comparing this to the stories we'll hear today. It's just, I'm kind of like just, you know, reflecting on myself. And I think that's something that we should all do. And that's why it's so powerful and informative, hearing these stories from our listeners that we're going to share. Like, I think that it's important that everybody kind of reflects on themselves too.

And I wanted to share one sentence that one of the girls said, I know that lots of people out there have good intentions, but I guess what I mean is it's not necessarily what you say, but how you say it or your tone of voice when you ask about my heritage. And I think we're always learning. I think that I've said things, you probably said things, even the past three years of this podcast, that we wouldn't say today, not anything crazy like a slur.

You guys know that's not what we do, but just say things differently more carefully today. So I just think ultimately that's the beauty of growth. Like we can look back on something we might have said years ago and like we wouldn't say that today because we have new information and like the world has changed and like people are growing and they're becoming better. You're allowed to learn more information and grow and change. And, you know, we've talked a lot about cancel culture so we don't need to get into that.

But, you know, I think so much of the Black Lives Matter movement was about just learning how other people think and feel and actually learning and being better. And I do feel like I'm a better person today because of what I've read and learned. And, you know, recently I've spent a lot more time, especially in the last couple weeks, especially researching dating apps and things like having ethnicity and race filters on dating apps and this discussion about whether they should remove them and Grindr has removed them and Hinge has not and certain what, they all have their different reasons for doing so. But there's a lot of discussion around racism and ethnicity on dating apps and should we be allowed to filter out?

And something I love about dating apps is that it has allowed more people to have interracial relationships because you're not just shopping for a partner in your socioeconomic, racial, ethnic background of your neighborhood. It's allowing you to go on the internet, find people from everywhere. So the good part about that is that it has allowed people to connect with people outside of just their circle, which is great and it's beautiful. But, you know, if you read the stories from people about the racism that they experience as a minority on dating apps, it's pretty hard to read.

and it's disappointing, it's disheartening. Yeah, and I just, I didn't even think about that because I don't set those filters at all, but I guess it also lets women just filter out white men. That's, I mean, that's the argument for not getting rid of it. Like Bumble has gotten rid of a grinder. They're saying, you know, everybody should be allowed to. It's not just white people filtering out white people. But, I mean, listen, their private businesses are allowed to do anything they want.

I personally, like, felt like I learned a lot reading these articles. And there was an Asian man that they were interviewing one of these articles. And he was talking about the racism that he finds on these. apps, but that like if I don't use them, I can't meet people. So he said, you know, I'm faced with this. Would I rather be alone? And should I be alone? Or should I go on these apps and face the racism that I feel that I face all the time on them? And people treat you like you're in other, other eyes. Yeah. And I just, I feel for people that get on data apps and deal with those scenarios all the time. All the time. And what we want to accomplish today is, you know, sharing these stories and there's power in a sense of community. So listeners may hear their story. and be able to relate and feel seen and heard and validated and also bring awareness to

these types of situations and for people that may not realize that they're happening. And ultimately, hearing other people's stories can create empathy, it can impact change. And the whole point of what we try to do is to, you know, educate, it's a comedy podcast at the end of the day. Guys, we talk about blow jobs and shit. But like, when we tackle these topics, it's partially to obviously, educate, but also make people feel seen and heard and validated. And we always want to treat these subjects with sensitivity and respect and choose our guests very carefully. And, you know, one person can't be an expert on all cultures and all the microaggressions and all the things that people

say. So ultimately, what we wanted to do here was just use the words of our listeners and share their stories. And then we are going to bring on Amy Chan to share her story as well. But everybody is a different story. And we just were like, why don't we take the words and stories of our actual listeners. You know, and like, let's talk about it and let's unpack it and let's hear what they have to say. Uh-huh. And we just want to thank you all that sent us your stories.

We are honored to be a safe space that you would send us and you would allow us to take your words and use them to talk about your experiences. So thank you all. And we're going to get into your emails. Yeah. Some of this stuff is painful to write and probably brings up some of these past experiences. So the fact that you guys, like, felt comfortable and safe emailing them like means a lot to us. we just can't thank you enough.

Right up top, I mean, these were some things that came up a lot of just like with Asian women, lots of things about having yellow fever. Like, I can't even like say it. It's like hard to even say that that's like a thing that men could lead with. And people just constantly saying, where are you from? No, like where are you really from? Saying things like I've never been with an Asian, Indian, Latina before, things like that. One world word, I can't tell you the amount of times guys use what are you as their opening

line to meet me at bars and day naps. So those are just some things that came up a lot. We're going to read some stories in full. Some I just pulled something really important out of it. So we're just going to get into it. Yeah. So our first email, a little bit of background information, I'm Puerto Rican.

My skin color is medium to dark, and I have big curly hair. Here are some shit men say. I've never dated somewhat exotic. Don't call me exotic. I'm not an animal chat. So she quotes everyone and then says something after. Yeah.

I've always wanted to fuck a black girl. I'm not here to help you check off one of your disgusting bucketless fantasies. You must know how to dance. I do, but I'm sure as hell not going to dance with you. You don't sound like a black girl, but you sound like a complete piece of shit. I love her clapbox.

Let's go to a club so you could twerk on me. Sure, buy me a drink, and then I'll kick you in the balls. Is your hair real? She wrote dot, dot, dot immediately blocked. The list goes on and on. It's sad and annoying that people still say stuff like this. I usually try to educate people when they say some type of comments like this, but to be quite honest, it gets tiring.

Yeah, of course it does. It feels exhausting to be the central educator for all these people. Yeah, and just, it's frustrating that the overwhelming emotion I'm feeling from a lot of these women is like, I'm just tired of this. Like, it's not once, it's a lot. And I'm just fucking tired and I'm over it. It sounds like it's so many guys that say the same things over and over and over again. It would make me not want to date.

It would make me throw my hands up. Yeah. Okay, I'll read the next one. She said, hi, I'm a 24-year-old Asian-American woman, huge fan of the podcast. It's gotten me through a lot, yada, yada, part of my self-care. She's just a really sweet message to us. And then she said, I grew up in very white spaces, so I didn't realize how hard the current events would hit me. I finally have to address my internal and identity issues and have space to do so. With fetishization being such a factor in what happened in Atlanta and my recent experience of being fetishized, I am currently always on the verge of tears. I'll summarize her story. She goes on to share a story about a friend, or I think it was her sister's friend trying to set her up with a co-worker and really pushing it, even after she initially said no, which is problematic to begin with. Someone says no, it's a fucking no. But later came to find out that he, that the co-worker had an Asian fetish and that he had seen a picture of her and her sisters and literally like picked her out of the photo and was like, I want to date her, make it happen.

And she just felt like he thinks Asian women are submissive and she signed it sincerely, not submissive or silent. So the fetishization of Asian women. women in American culture is a huge problem. And I feel like it took something as awful and disgusting as like a shooting for people to be like, oh, shit, could we have seen this coming? You know what I mean? Yes, yes, you could have. And one of our listeners, we shared her email earlier a couple weeks ago and she said,

you know, I come from a culture that was just told to be quiet and fit in and not make noise essentially. It's a shame that this hasn't been brought to light until so much violence came. But I'm glad to share the stories. Our next email, she is Latinx, and she shared a story about her struggles of dating a white guy in college and having a racist professor. Being a woman of color in dating requires a lot of confidence. Looking back, if I wasn't always doubting myself for being the only black indigenous person of color, then all of my classes, maybe comments like that wouldn't hurt so much.

I vividly remember walking into my honors classes and just feeling like this look from all my white classmates and feeling so unwelcomed. One thing higher education and that shitty relationship taught me was that BIPAC people have to be excellent always and white people don't have to show up the same. Brad's thesis was passed and while we were dating he was on an academic probation. My thesis is denied and I graduated with a 3.9 GPA with automatic acceptance into a grad program on the same campus. Moral of the story, if you're a woman of color, I'm not saying your person is not white but it's not going to be a good time. if they can't see the struggles you face day to day and you're not well aware of their own privilege. I think that's such a good call. It's not that you can't date a white person, but it needs to be someone like gets it. There's a woman on Instagram. Her name's Genevievee Roth and she is married to a black man and they have a biracial child.

And she documents, well, I'll read her Instagram bio says, sharing stories about the ways my whiteness has impacted my marriage and mothering. And it's really honest accounts and stories of her kind of realizing now that she couldn't see past her own whiteness to really understand and empathize with her husband even. And it's Genevieve J. Roth is her, is the handle. And I just, I find it really impactful, especially for an interracial relationship. And this listener's story reminded me of that. And we didn't share the whole story, but yeah, she was dating this white guy named Brad, obviously. And just like, he didn't get it. Like she was like, this is racism. And he's like, I don't think so. You know, like that kind of stuff.

Right. You want to at least be with somebody that will hear you and hear out what your struggles are. Yeah. Okay. We are just going to do a couple more. So she writes, I'm a 31 year old woman from the Navajo Nation in New Mexico because the Navajo Nation covers three states. And online dating can be such a mess. As soon as guys that I match with find out that I'm native, it either goes three ways. Number one, whoa, you're native. That's so cool. Tell me about your people. I've never met a native. on here before, aka tokenized. Two, tries that cool about it, but then it becomes apparent that our lived experiences are drastically different. And at this point, it usually ends. Three, constant pressure to send sexy nudes

and brings up Disney's Pocahontas narrative, the white guy and native gal. And at this point, just feels so sexualized that I'm no longer a woman with feelings, but this conquered quest of being able to sleep with someone so exotic. I feel sick. I'm, like, cringing.

I know. To further the obstacles of online dating, there's always the concerns of safety for anyone, more so with the missing murdered indigenous women crisis across North America, also in Canada. The U.S. Department of Justice found that Native women face murder rates. There are 10 times more than the national average. We have discussed that on this podcast before.

So she just says that when I'm matching with a guy, like, I'm already cautious about where we meet. And there's like, there's like a fear coupled with the whatever it is, the tokenization, the fetishization. It's a lot. So she said, on a lighter note, I'm so glad to be a listener. I've learned so much about empowering myself and enjoying being single as fuck. But like, I just imagine having to explore.

explain your experience to everybody. And at some point, yes, we're all different. We come from different backgrounds. We have to explain where we come from. But imagine having to lead with that and explain, you know, what your race is and where you came from. It's exhausting. Yeah.

And I'm, you know, this guy's like this. To me, ultimately, I wanted to, we wanted to share your experiences and we also wanted to like let people know that really don't know that this happens to non-white women when they're just trying to date. And I don't really have the answers. and perhaps we do that like on another episode where we have someone come on that can, we need to find this perfect person,

but speak more and like how you respond. Or we can read the next one. She just says, get rid of them all. So I'll read this last one. Okay. Do you want to read it? I mean, you went through all these.

Fine, I'll do this one. I'll close it out. I don't read as well as actually. I'm a good reader. Okay. She says, I saw the Insta story while dating as a woman of color. I identify as Asian American and girl things I have learned.

One, if they have anywhere in their profile, they like anime, throw the whole man out. If they tell me that they love Asians, they're their favorite, throw the whole man out. If they follow a ton of Asian models on Instagram, like live your truth, but it's sketch as fuck when all the women models they follow were Asian women, throw the whole man out.

If they brag about being a fucking white belt in Taekwondo, you guessed it, throw the whole man out. She said, honestly, as an Asian woman, I've always had the fear of being fetishized while dating, but now with all the recent violence toward Asian women, I am really scared about what harm could come to me potentially, and I approach dating with even more extra care to make sure I don't put myself into situations that could be harmful to me.

Love you girls. Let me know if you want to talk more. And like she's, you know, she's funny about it, but it's fucking lame. Like I cannot relate. I'm a white woman. But I will say that even as like an older woman, like I don't want some young guy to like think of me as some like cougar conquest. Like none of us want to be fetishized in any way. And I know it's not the same. I know it's not comparable.

I can't stress that enough. But it's like while we're talking about the fetishization and the things men say to women, you know, I just, I wanted to bring it up. I know it's like age. It's not race. I wouldn't do it to another person.

I can't imagine approaching, I mean, I love Indian men, Asian men, Middle Eastern men. Oh, fuck every race. I can't imagine approaching somebody at a bar and being like, but where are you really from? Like,

I would never do something like that. I don't need to have experienced it in my life to know that it's wrong. I wouldn't do it. Yeah. Throw the whole man out. We all are people. We're humans. It's crazy to treat us like we're less than human. And I think that's like such the problem with what we see, what happened in Atlanta and just what American culture has done to Asian women and other women of color as well that they are like objectified ultimately. Yeah. And Amy Chan will speak to this a little bit today with us and we're excited to talk to her. And this was just a line I liked. This was from a woman. She's an Indian woman. She actually came to our Charleston show. And she wrote a story at the end. It just said, TLDR. Fetishizing someone for being different leads to a lot of internalized self-hatred and rejection of their own culture and lasting impact on who that person becomes later in life. I'm glad that you read this because I was reading an article about this study. And exposure to these experiences may absolutely ferment feelings of shame, humiliation, inferiority, negatively impacting the self-esteem and overall psychological health of racial and ethnic minorities. They said, it better than I could. But yeah, every one of these things, it just slowly chips away at you.

Yeah. And no matter how strong you are, what kind of support system you have, the things that people say to you inform how you go through life. Absolutely. So, you know, but keep it in mind. Yeah. So like we said, we want to bring awareness to this stuff and maybe it can make some change. I mean, I don't know. Like, spread the word. Tell your friends. Tell your fucking brother. Tell your guy friends. Like, or if you're a guy listening, like, know that this is not how you talk to women and like if you are leading with this stuff, you have some shit to work on. Like self-reflect and fix it. Yep. Because you're making people feel like less than. Yep. And we're all entitled to make mistakes, but what you should be doing is learning and listening to

these stories and do fucking better. A hundred percent. Do better be better. Okay. So we are going to bring in Amy. Yes, guys. We are very excited, honored to welcome back a former guest of ours. She was one of your all-time favorite episodes about breakups. She is the founder of breakup boot camp, the writer of the book Breakup Boot Camp. Please welcome back to the show, Amy Chan. Yay! Yay! Hi! Hi! Our like best friend that the pandemic ruined. We were like trying to get together and then COVID happened. Like we were always like, you invited us to some event. And then we were like, we got to get drinks with Amy. And then we like went to Australia. And then we like came back and it was COVID. And then you moved away and you left us. And it's like, when are we going to

get this friendship going. I know. I mean, we text and we talk, but I'm just like, oh, good. And you moved away. So you are from Vancouver. You lived in New York and you moved back since we filmed with you, recorded. Yeah. Yeah.

So I'm loving it here. It's really nice. So, well, tell us what else is going on. How's your pandemic, man? So we recorded with you end of 2009 or beginning of 2020 or we've recorded with you in the fall of 2019.

Okay. And so you're in Vancouver. You're still with the same partner. Just tell us what's been going on in the past year of your life. Yeah. So I hosted my last physical retreat. And then the pandemic hit. And I was in quarantine for 45 days in a 600 square foot apartment with three cats. And then, yeah, my boyfriend and I decided that let's just leave. And he hadn't even visited Vancouver before. And we've packed a bags in three weeks. we left and we now have our new home in Vancouver, Canada. It's been really great. And since then, I published my book, Breakup Boot Camp. I took the retreats online, so I offer virtual retreats and workshops now. And I've just really recalibrated. I used to be in New York and just hustle all the time. And that was my norm. And I got out of it. And I was like, whoa, what was I doing? And life is just a lot more peaceful. now and slow and I take my time.

Good. For people who don't know who are like newer lists are just catching up, can you give us like a quick overview of what breakup boot camp is? And we'll tell people where the episode is, of course. Yeah. So breakup boot camp, we take a scientific and spiritual approach to healing and rewind the heart. I bring in 13 experts from psychologists to behavioral scientists to dominatrixes. And we help people after a breakup.

But everyone who comes, whether it's a physical retreat, or a virtual one, they realize after that's never just about the X, it's recycled pain. So we really work on the deeps of conscious patterns and belief systems that cause people to repeat the same emotional experiences over and over again. Yeah, and it's completely life-changing again. And if you guys, of course, go back and listen to our episode. If you're listening to this, you probably have already listened. It's literally one of our very top five most popular episodes.

But, and of course, get your book too. Can't recommend it enough. Yes. So you are here. today again because we were doing an episode about Asian Americans and a rise in hate crimes, especially towards women. And we, Ashley and I both really loved what you wrote. You wrote something really special and meaningful and moving. And we would love to talk to you about what you wrote and your experience and really just give you the floor to talk about growing up as an Asian woman

and what that was like. Yeah. So I wrote a blog about my experience growing up being Asian. And Ashley, I have to say thank you because if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have put it out there and promoted it because I kind of hid behind it. I wrote it to kind of get things off my chest and I hit it on my blog and yeah, because of you, it actually caused this ripple effect and I just shared about my experience growing up because I thought it was normal. I hated being Asian and one of my memories was saving my allowance money and going to the makeup counter and asking the woman, I want white foundation so I look white. And the woman at the counter was like, you can't do that. And I didn't believe her. So I just went on my own. I picked the whitest foundation I could.

And I was like, okay, this is my ticket out. I could, you know, look Caucasian and being Chinese would be, you know, my little dirty secrets. And that was normal for me. I went to a school. where pretty much everyone was white, none of the boys liked the Asian girl. It was very obvious to me that I was, you know, not the same. And, you know, anytime I heard a racist remark, when kids would be super mean, I like pulled their eyelids into slants and make fun of me, even though my eyes are like super big, I just was like, huh? Like, what's going on? Like, whatever. And it was just a constant shrugging it off. And that's how my culture, you know, it's part of my culture. You don't really say anything and you really prioritize harmony over conflict or confrontation. Do you remember going home

after school as a kid and talking to your parents about it and saying like kids aren't being nice to me and was the message just don't talk about it? Or did how did you feel and how did you decide to not talk about it? I am the daughter of immigrant parents who came to from China to Canada. My great-grandparents built to help build the railroad. These conversations just weren't a part of our lives. Survival was my parents' priority. And so, yeah, there was no woke conversations and they were always working. So I didn't have my parents around. And so I never felt safe talking to them about anything. I just kind of took it in and was like, this is normal. This is normal. It's obviously so heartbreaking to hear that you were embarrassed of what you were as a child

and wanting to not be that, but you talked about how it started to feel differently as you became more of a woman, young woman. Yeah, things changed in the 90s. And suddenly being an Asian woman was trendy and it was cool. And so I've done some research on like, what the hell happened? Because it was a really drastic difference. And I don't know if it was because some popular television shows started to show Asian women. I know there's a very popular sign-filled episode where there's like this whole thing about him dating an Asian woman. I don't know if that's a coincidence or if that was kind of part of what started it. But suddenly being an Asian woman was, sexy. And I started to get attention from guys. And this was something I struggled with. So I was

like, okay, like, gitty up. Like, I'm going to play into this. And I just morphed my identity again. And, you know, really took on this hot Asian girl fantasy. And it was performative. I mean, even sexually, I was performative. And I knew that was going to be validated and accepted. And I also knew that there were certain guys and they were known to only date Asian women. And I know that there's even like this girl, we'll call her Jamie. And she kind of looks like me, some people say, but any guy that has ever liked Jamie would like me and vice versa. And like this was just something again, like normalized.

I didn't question it. I didn't think that there was anything wrong with it. I just played into it because it gave me a sense of acceptance. And so how did that sort of like inform the way that you chose men and you chose to date and like looked at yourself? I think that I would look at the certain guys. You know, there was like certain entrepreneur groups where I was like, oh yeah, that guy. He only dates Asian women. Like there's a target for me.

So like I would flirt with them. And then, yeah, in turn, they would like me and like we would date. And this happened over and over again. And obviously to not, you know, never a successful relationship. But that's kind of this thing I did for a couple of years. And, you know, I'm only starting to look at how did these things affect me. Only now. Because for most of my life, I have disassociated from feeling any of these things.

I've learned all these coping mechanisms, right? From a child, my coping mechanism was to hide the feelings, to not talk about it, to blend in, don't cause a stir. Then as, you know, a 20-year-old woman to like my later 20s, it was, okay, like, be in this mold of the sexy person that they want. And I just never stopped to be like, hey, how is this affecting me? Is this helping me? It's only now that I'm starting to unravel that. Amy, I just can't thank you enough for your honesty and like talking us about this today. Like it's just, I don't know if it brings up a lot for you, but I just am so appreciative that

you're like sharing this with us. And I just feel like it's going to speak to so many people. I'm sure this is there are women listening. They're like, that's my story, you know? And it sounds to me like you're unpacking some of it now in real time. Yeah. It's like being a fish in water and you like wet water, right? I think that's sort of like a really similar experience. And even when I heard about the shootings, I felt all these emotions and I was like, don't cry. Like every time it would come up, I'm like just, you know, that was just my natural way of being. And when you've behaved with these coping mechanisms for so long, for decades, that becomes a pattern of behavior. So, you know, the day afterwards, and you sent me

a text. And I remember I was in my car and I cried when you checked in on me. And it was right after you sent me that text, I went to a coffee shop and I wrote that post. Oh my God. I'm like not worthy. Like you told me that and I was like, I don't deserve this recognition. Yeah. And like it was just, you know, it was just a check in. But for some reason it activated something in me and it made me stop all of the like, I'm fine. I'm okay. And be like, wait. Like, uh, maybe I'm. Maybe I'm. I'm actually not okay. And I've been practicing letting myself feel the feelings. And if I want to cry, like let it out.

And yeah, I'm still unpacking all of this. Yeah. I think that probably a lot of people will really relate to your message of, you know, I learned that I can lead with sex and my value was how I looked and that's how I, you know, showed up to the world. And, you know, on top of that, I was fetishized for it. And I picked men because of it. to unpack that and listen, there's something wrong with that. You know, like, I, I grew breast as a very

young age. I learned that I could lead with sex and get people to like me as well. I'm not, I mean, it's not the same thing at all. But yeah, I leaned into it and I led with it and I thought that that was my value for a long time as well. And to sort of recalibrate your brain to say, like, there's all these things I bring to the table. Right. It sort of like jolts you a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Do you talk to your partner about this kind of thing? A lot. So my partner, is really into politics. And so, you know, before I used to just shy away from all of these things, I'm like, I don't want to read the news. Like, it just like, you know, it's not positive. And I, now I'm listening to political podcasts. I'm like, you know, we're having these conversations

at the dinner table. I'm looking at different perspectives. And so, yeah, it's been really great to have a supportive partner where I feel really safe to talk about these things to express, And he's my rock. Is he white? He is half Italian, half something they don't know. I hate to ask that question so bluntly, but I think that there's,

we had a story from a listener who shared, like, if you are a woman of color, I think she said, I'm not saying that you can't be with a white person, obviously. It happens all the time and it works out, but it needs to be someone that understands where you're coming from

and what you may deal with, that they have never have, but they're willing to try to understand and be empathetic and put themselves in your shoes and comfort you and be there for you. So obviously that you have that. You have healthy relationships. You've written books about it.

Of course, you have a healthy partnership, but I still wanted to ask. No, I just make sure that he's doing what he's supposed to do. And then he's not unnoticed, okay? Amy, like, confesses. She's like, he actually hasn't been that great. We're like, we'll be there. We will be there.

I wanted to ask you and, you know, take your time thinking about this, but for other people that are like, okay, well, I have a partner. I might be Asian. I have a partner that's not. I want to talk to them about this stuff. Or I want to talk to them about what they might not realize is a big deal, but is a microaggression against me or even their friends. But if you have like advice for how to talk to your partner about it, I think a lot of people dealt with this over the summer, of course, Black Lives Matter and also wanting to educate their partners. So do you have advice for talking to your partner about this kind stuff? Yeah, I mean, the way that I've done it is, you know, the news is something which starts as a

starting point, right? When the shootings happen, that was a major conversation. And then I went into, okay, this is my experience of it. And I started to share stories. And I think it's really important that we share our stories where before there might have been a lot of shame around it, because that's how we minimize a shame. It's by shining light on these stories and these things that we've kept hidden. And you do that with someone you feel safe with before you're able to go and do it

and share it with the world. So I think that's the very first step is with this person that you trust, talk about what happened, talked about your confusion, ask the questions, and give them an opportunity to ask you questions. and if they're not asking the right questions, guide them and educate them.

And so, you know, and that's with your partners and even with your friends, right? Like, I have been a part of the jokes, right? I've participated in them. I've laughed at them. I've made the jokes, right? One Halloween, I went to this Halloween party, which was hosted by these guys that are known to have, like, Asian fever. and I dressed up in a cheng sum, a traditional Chinese dress with a doctor's kit and a sign that I was curing yellow fever, right?

Oh my God. That was super funny. Yeah. Because, you know, the hate, it doesn't start off as hate per se. I don't think it starts off. I think that, you know, hate simmers until it explodes. And it starts with that seemingly harmless joke, the othering, the othering, the other. other person, the objectifying, the other person. And there are these, you know, hundreds or thousands

of slights that add up. And so I think that part of this is educating people, because I don't think that most people are evil and have bad intentions and they want to hurt you. I think a lot of people aren't informed. They're not educated. They're not having these conversations. I know growing up, I didn't have any conversations about racism or sexism. And so, So part of this is when someone is saying a joke or saying something that is inappropriate and you feel it, there's that moment where you're like, no, but then you're like, okay, I'll just tickle. At least I know it for me.

And then just ask like, hey, like, do you think that's appropriate and what makes you think it's appropriate? Like, ask with curiosity. But when you go and you're like, oh, my God, like, why'd you say that you're such an idiot? I don't know if that is going to have as much as an impact than asking with curiosity and compassion and being like, hey, I'm curious. And having, opening up that dialogue so that people can start to be like, oh, wait, I didn't know that that that has that impact.

Okay. I think that's where it starts. For sure. And I wanted to get back to the dating and the fetishizing we've talked a lot about on this episode and ask you if you feel like there are signs of it. you know, because I think there's a world in which there could be a man, for example, and he has a few ex-girlfriends that are all Asian. And that doesn't necessarily mean that he has a fetish. That could be that he, it's coincidence, where you live matters, demographics,

and just in general gravitating towards a certain type of look. Like we all do. You know, you can line up a lot of guys that Rayne and I have both dated that looked similar. Um, so I just wanted to hear from you, did you ever pick up on things that made you feel that it was more of a fetishization than a preference of attractiveness? I would say that you could,

like for me, I could feel it. That something was a little off. So it's almost like that sense of conquesting. So when someone's conquesting, they have an idea of what maybe it is they want a wife or they want a husband, whatever

it is. And they're like, oh, Zoom. you you fit in. They're not dealing with you as a human being. They're dealing with you as an object and a means to an end. Like, I'll fit you here. And in my experience of being fetishized, I could feel it. Like someone was like, oh my gosh, like they have a thing for Asian women and it's super sexy and like you. And there's no like wanting to know my soul or my brain or like any of that stuff. So yeah, I think that I don't know what are the red flags telltale signs, but I think that, you know, for me, I could feel something. And then I also played into some of it, too. Where I was like, oh, okay, well, that's the way that, you know, I'm going to get this guy to like me. Okay, cool. Like, I'm, I'm game. And now, like, I'm in a healthy partnership. Like, I just don't feel any of that shit. It's just not there. You just know it when you see it, right? There's just things you can't.

necessarily make a laundry list of it. It's just I can feel it. I can feel that I've been slotted in here and anybody else could be slotted in here. I think it's just important to acknowledge it, think about how do these things affect me and move forward? Yeah. Well, anything else, Amy, that you wanted to talk about today? Like, I were just so honored that you took the time and talked about the stuff you wrote and how you've been feeling. Yeah. I've been thinking about this quote a lot. It's privilege is when you think something is not a problem because it's not a problem to you personally. And it's just been a really great quote to really shift perspective and make you think about these things because even before when I was hearing some of the people

speak up about racism, like, oh, like, I don't face it. I'm in Vancouver, like half the population years Asian, no, it's not a problem. But like, I've been using this kind of as a filter in all of these different issues that are being brought to light right now. And I think that could be helpful for people. I think that, you know, what you guys are doing is great, like providing a platform. And so for others, you don't have a platform. I think like enabling and opening space for people to share their stories is really important. And even however you're going to signal. to other people, Asians, so that they feel safe with you, that they're emotionally safe to talk to you about these things.

I think that's a really helpful thing that you can do. And educate when you hear those jokes, instead of just giggling or, like, being silent, say something. I love that you said that. And I think that that'll be like the perfect litmus test for everybody, which is, you know, just because I don't think it's an issue, doesn't mean? I mean, I think about that. all the time you see that. I saw that so much more when I lived in Atlanta and I lived in the

South and just people, it's because they refuse to recognize it. They just, they don't want to see it. And so it's this like, I don't, I don't know. I've never experienced that. It's like, did you ever stop to think that your experience is not the experience of everyone else, especially if you're a white person? Like, hold me back for my keyboard. You know what I mean? And that's just, just because you didn't grow up in that scenario where you realized it was a problem somewhere, it says me, you're a bad person. You're a bad person if you don't want to learn and educate and grow up there now. I talked about earlier in the episode. I didn't know anti-Semitism was a problem. I just didn't. I mean, I knew about the Holocaust. I didn't grow up in an environment where people

hated Jews. And so to just be the kind of person that opens up your eyes and wants to learn from other people is really important. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Amy, we thank you so much. I hope you continue to talk about this stuff. I just think, you know, you're a beautiful writer, speaker, person in general. And our audience loves you. It's obviously one reason why I wanted to bring you back today. So we'll tell people where they can find your work, your book, your retreats, your Instagram, everything. Yeah. So renew, breakup bootcamp.com is my website. I'm on Instagram at Miss Amy Chan and my book, Breakup Bootcamp, The Science of Rewa on Your Heart, is at all bookstores and write me a review on Amazon. Well, thank you for being here. We just love you so much.

Thank you for all of your words and everything you did. Thank you. This is fun. And you know where to find us, Girls Gotta Eat Podcast.com at Girls Gotta Eat Podcast on Instagram. Raina. greenberg, Ash Hess on Instagram, Girls underscore Gottoeat on Twitter and YouTube.com slash Girls Gotta Eat. Tickets for those Florida shows at Girls Got EatPodepadcast.com. So scoop up on them before they're gone. And we'll see you next week.

Thanks, guys. Have a good week. Bye.