Girls Gotta Eat - Do You Worry You're Undateable? with Relationship Scientist Logan Ury

Episode Date: April 3, 2023

One of our most popular guests – behavioral scientist, dating coach, and author Logan Ury – is back for another incredible conversation. We're discussing the feeling of being "undateable" due to family trauma, past relationship baggage, an STI, being a virgin, etc. and how to own your story and share it with a potential partner. Logan breaks down why vulnerability is the primary thing that makes people feel close to you and how to open up more on dates, and we also discuss her experience living on a commune with her partner and all their friends, and the importance of OSOs (other significant others). Before Logan joins us, we're catching up on Rayna's hot new neighbor and Ashley's nail journey, and we're sharing our feelings about officially moving from NYC to LA. Plus, we have recs. Enjoy! Follow Logan on Instagram @loganury. Visit her website for her book How To Not Die Alone and more. Follow us @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit our website for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Shop Vibes Only. Thank you to our partners this week: HelloFresh: Get 50% off + free shipping at hellofresh.com/gge50 and use code GGE50. Buffy: Get $20 off your order at buffy.co with promo code GGE. Beis: Get 15% off your first purchase at beistravel.com/gge. Babbel: Get up to 55% off your subscription at babbel.com/gge. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

People are out there feeling like they're undaatable, feeling like they have something about them that makes them not worthy of love. And in fact, everyone can tell their story in a way that's really empowered where you feel powerful, not powerless. What up, girls got to eat. That was all. But not leave fast. Brought him up here. Just as soon as we did the high guys, he was like, for that reason, I'm out. I really appreciate it, though, that he made a cameo.

He's like, I've done my time. He looked so cute last week. cute was really modeling. Aw. Yeah. Okay. He's really living his best life on that couch. Big day today.

We'll talk about it. What's happening today? I'm on my long nail journey. I can't believe you didn't text me at the place, leaving the place. You were busy, for one. I feel like I am nail culture. You are. I am nail culture.

I know. Well, I was doing a lot of texting to Kate because she recommended the place. And I, the pedicure was not going as planned. It was fine. It was fine. I have to transition from New York nail salons to L.A.

And I was getting a little antsy. I mean, I was trying to buy you a nail salon gift card at Christmas and I was having a really hard time. It's not the same nail culture here. The salon was gorgeous and chic and I absolutely loved it. But it's a little more relaxing vibe. Like New York, I'm in and I'm out.

And I'm like, we were getting to a point where they were doing a gel mani, not fake nails, but like 20 minutes. I would go, four shows. I would be like, I have to be on stage in 10 minutes. Between shows was the crazy. Oh, yeah. I went between sets. I can't relate. You know I'm always there for 90 minutes. But I was like, I kind of got to a point with my girl. I was like, let's see how quick we can do this today. I don't need a massage. I'm just like, get these nails. I can't get used to looking at them on

you. Well, don't get used to it. I knew you were going to hate it. I knew you were going to complain the whole time. So I gave you the whole rundown. I knew you were going to hate it. I knew you were going to hate it. We'll talk about it. I don't even know where to start. I haven't seen you in a really a long time. I know. I was trying to leave you alone yesterday. You really did leave me. That's the longest we've ever gone. It's the longest we've ever gone not talking. And then this morning we didn't talk either. We were on like a lot of group chats, which is like, usually like we don't talk to each other and we're just on group chats. I'm like, she's mad at me. So I just, we haven't talked or seen each other in a really long time. I mean, at this point,

I know your life and I knew you got in late Saturday night, right? Yeah. And then just, I knew you were going to be just kind of dead to the world on Sunday. Oh, no. I was the opposite. of dead of the world. I woke up at 7 a.m. and started filling my car with stuff for the new house. When I have like a thing to do like I'm just like I got to do it, got to do it, got to do it. I made like four trips to the new house. Oh my God. I spent 14 hours back and forth unpacking stuff getting ready for the movers to come tomorrow. Oh, I guess I should have checked in. No. I mean, I was really glad honestly because like I was just like head down like going to I had to go to U-Haul. I had to go to CVS, Whole Foods. I had made a million things. So I actually was glad no one really talked to me. I was like, do I still have friends? Yesterday I woke up just not feeling like 100, had a hike on the books, and was like, I did the hike and it was incredible and I'm so glad I went.

But you know you start sending out, and I set it up. I couldn't bail. We talk about us all the time. You can't bail on a plan you set up. You set up, yeah. So, but I did start to put it out there in the morning like, it's super windy. It was, and it was. It was crazy windy, but it reminds me of that meme that says like,

Someone just canceled plans because it suddenly got really windy and I respect that or something like that. And so I was like, I don't want to, I can't be that bitch, but I rolled up to that hike a fucking mess. Like I was like, I think I'm a little hungover. I didn't realize it until just now. You know when you're trying to do a thing. And so I get there crazy late. They were late too. Everything was fine. Everybody's always late.

And then I was like, I'm starving. I didn't eat enough. So I had to go to this like fruit stand right at the entrance of the hike at Griffith Observatories. There's cute little fruit stand. I get fruit, a giant thing. I'm like, how am I going to hold this and eat it? And these nails. And then a zool like lunges and I almost drop the fruit.

My nails dug into my palm. I was like, I'm injured. And then I had to like go to the bathroom with a zool in like a one stall. I shut the door on the leash. He's outside the stall. I'm in the stall. I was like a mess. I was like, am I hot and my cold is windy?

I'm blowing around. I got these fucking nails. I'm trying to eat this mango with tahin all over it. I was like, I feel like a mess. And I like rolled up in Marilyn and Ann were like, Are you good? I was like, not really. Nothing feels better, though, that when you float the idea that it's like a little chilly,

and then everyone's like, she's trying to bail. And then everyone starts backing down and suddenly you don't have the plan. And then Carol kept being like, can you pick me up? Can you pick me up? Like, just a carpool because there's not a lot of parking. And I just didn't. I kept not answering because I was like, I don't want to. I just, I know I'm going to be running late and it's kind of out of my way.

And so Anne calls me. She's like, Ashley, I feel like she could read me. She was like, do you want to push this back to noon? And do you want me to pick Merrill up? And I was like, you are, Ann's my favorite friend. I like her more than you, honestly. I love her. She is the most important person in my life and gave me a Peloton bike.

I love Ann. I would, listen, if my dad and Anne were hanging off the side of a building and I could only save one, I'd really have to think it through. For the record, she let you borrow hers. She didn't buy you a Peloton bike. No, she just gave it to me. But we had dinner one night. She's like a newer friend for me, like a newer, like solo hang.

Yeah. I was talking about how I just like miss working out. And she's like, I'm a Peloton. I don't use. Do you want it? And I was like, what? And she had just watched Azul. And so we were like, she's the MVP.

But I did take Meryl home. So I am a good friend. I couldn't do both. I couldn't do both carpools. I couldn't do drop off and pickup. I don't want to do carpool in L.A. with anybody. It's out of the way. You asked me to take you to like down the street to get your car.

I was like, do I have to? Anyway, okay. So tomorrow's your move day. Like as of we record So by the time this comes out You will be like have moved in Yeah I've been really like going through it I feel like I'm going to really pat myself on the back

I haven't really complained a lot through this You know I've been like Friday during the move You've been emo as fuck I've been crying a lot but I've not been complaining I'm not sending like I'm gonna fucking burn this place To the ground text until I was on the phone Verizon But other than that Verizon

Nothing will make you late to build up fire It's godspeed I got a text from them that was like This is gonna need a phone call about a bill. And I just, I didn't, I couldn't deal with it over the weekend. I was like, I can't ruin my weekend. I will task grab it the next phone call I have to make to Verizon. I will never do it again. But yeah, I've been crying a lot. I flew back to New York to move out of my place and we moved out of our studio and I flew back to do that. And I just realized that like living here has been

just like an extended vacation and I haven't really processed that I'm like not a New Yorker anymore. And I think I've just like resigned to be a New Yorker forever. I'm a New Yorker. And I hadn't really left New York. And it's the only place I've lived in my adult life. I know nothing else. Like, I guess I was a little more cavalier about it than I thought I was going to feel. Like, I was just like, it's going to be great. And then like, as we were packing up, I was like, all the memories I have in this place, like, it's just, it's over. And this place gave me so much. And New York gave me so much. And who am I if I'm not a New Yorker? And like, you tell people that you're from New York and everybody has a million questions. You tell people who you're from L.A. People don't have many questions.

Well, they're like, oh, you're not. Whatever. People aren't just like, You don't instantly become the coolest person in the room what you do when you're a New Yorker. Yeah, if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere quite closely. Those streets will make you feel brand new. Original taglines, Ashley Hustledon. I wrote that. Trademark it. So, yes, it was very emotional for me.

And I cried a lot. And I, like, went back to the apartment, sat on the floor and, like, thanked the apartment. It was very L.A. I just put on a sound F. I did. I do that in L.A. I didn't know it was going to hit me so hard. I just, I didn't expect it.

And then I was in a hotel after I made. moved out and I was just like, I can't believe I don't live here anymore. My entire identity is tied to being. I know, I know. I mean, I kept thinking about that too. Like, it's different for you. I mean, I always say, like, I had two full-blown different adult lives. I had Atlanta, Ashley and New York, Ashley, and now there's L.A. Ashley. I rarely use third person. I don't know what I'm doing right now saying that. But I just, it was different and I was so ready to get out of Atlanta. So it's like I didn't have that such sadness because I didn't feel like it defined me. You know, like I wasn't Like, I am Atlanta.

Well, I'm wondering how you felt about leaving Atlanta. It was tough, and I had a tough breakup. I mean, there were so many tears, but, like, I was so ready to go. And I just didn't feel like that defined me, like, the way that New York has, like, defined you. Like, you've lived your whole adult life there. You love that apartment so much. It was such a huge deal in 2019 when you and I got to live in those apartments.

Like, it just, I've talked about this before. You're like, I made it. I can't believe I made it in the hardest city in the world. Like, it is my badge of honor. I'm sure you feel the same way. Like, we really fucking did it. It's so hard. We made it.

We performed for a sold-out crowd at the beacon. Like, we really did it and had the best time. And it's the best city in the world, truly. And I'm so happy to be here. But it is really emotional to leave there. But it's like, we'll always be there. It really will. I know that people say that, but it's like,

it's so still a part of your life and my life. And I'm just like, don't watch, like, sex in the city for a minute. I literally was like trying to actively avoid the episode where she left and moved away. and everyone's like, Miranda's all pissed at her. And I just, I couldn't do it. It has defined me as a person. It's everything that I am. And honestly,

leaving has made me love it so much more. Every night I was home, I, like, walked home by myself late at night, and I was just like, how special is this? Just be amongst people. I cried every night on my way home. I just cried a lot. But, you know, Jenny sent me this text,

our friend, Jenny. She was originally more your friend, but not my friend too. Girls got to eat guests. But she sent me this quote from this book, what I was doing while you were breeding. Yeah, we were talking about having her on. And she basically just talks about,

like giving up one thing that you love for another thing that you're going to love. And like, I ended this chapter and I feel really sad about it. And I cried the whole time I was there. But when I got back to L.A., I felt really happy. The sun is shining. I like the convenience. I don't have to harp on how great L.A. is. But I felt like I gave up something I really loved, but I'm like really happy with my life. And I got to set up my house yesterday a little more. And so like both things can exist. You can be in like a lot of pain because you're giving up something you love so much. But like the other thing can also be really exciting and wonderful. and I'm trying to like remind myself of that.

I mean, it really is though, like people say this and it's so cliche, but like it will always be there and we can do whatever the fuck we want because we're single, you know, not that we're going to plan on being single forever and like hopefully we'll meet somebody that's live can compliment ours and we can still do whatever the fuck we want. I'm not trying to like compromise doing what I want. But, you know, I realize relationships have that in them. But you can go, like you can be bicostal, like you can do whatever you want. There's nothing holding you back.

you have the resources, you have the money, you know, so I always think about that. Like, I could see a world in which just because I am closer to Delaware, that I am back in New York. I don't feel like this is it for me being here full time. I'm so happy about the next year, maybe the year after. I just don't know, but like I'm not done with New York by any stretch. I don't think that you are either. And this is just another chapter. Like it's so funny because people were always like, did you miss Atlanta? And I was like, not for a second. And that's not shade to Atlanta. I love Atlanta. It was just like so time for me to go and be with like my people, you know. I was really thinking about you a lot because I just was wondering, like,

did you have such a visceral reaction to leaving like I did? I just think I stayed too long. I was going to move before I met this guy and that kind of kept me there longer. Like, I was so beyond ready to leave and start my new life. And even when I got to New York was like, God, I wish I would have done this earlier. So you know how much I love that city. I have all the love in the world for it. It just wasn't like me at my core. And so, no, I never, never once. And my family's not there, like, either. I didn't have some like roots there as much. And I didn't. I didn't have some, like, roots there as much. But moving's fucking crazy. Like, I was with Alyssa Amaroso, publicity. We love her. We've both been on her podcast. Tea with publicity. And she was like,

it's so weird because I moved here. She did the same thing as us. Did the trial run, Airbnb then was like within weeks was like, this is it. Found a place. She's permanent now. And she was like, it hits you later that you fucking moved here all the way across the country. And you live here. It's crazy. I was like, it is crazy. Yeah, until I wrote that check to the moving company, I was like pretty okay. But yeah, I really was thinking about you and wondering, and I did not expect to have this much of emotional reaction, but I'm glad to be here, and I feel like our lives are good, and I just, it's really hard, but, like, you can't stay in a place for other people.

Like, I was thinking, like, I don't have friends, like, Emily and Jeremy, anywhere else in the world, except for you, like, they're my people in the world. Like, they're my family the way you're my family. I don't necessarily have that as much here, but you can't stay places for one or two people. That's crazy, too. Totally. And it's weird because it's like, my other best friend is here, you know, So it just, it immediately felt like home too.

So I don't know. I just was thinking about you all weekend because it was like a beautiful weekend with all these fun plans. And I was like, I still know this is like where you're supposed to be now. Yeah. So I'm really happy. I'm excited. Thank you guys for being along on the journey. Everybody sent me such nice messages being like, you're going to be okay.

It's okay. It's emotional. But tomorrow the movers come and put me into the new place fully. And I'm excited and it's beautiful. And I live at a house for the first time in my entire life since I left my mom's house since college. Yeah. What are you laughing about it? I just don't know if this house life is for me.

I can't. I mean, I love it, but it's like, nothing's perfect. Like, everything is drawbacks. Like, I was like, I never am going to live in an apartment again. I've never went back to a small apartment. I'm like, there are some conveniences that are real nice. Like, just the sheer amount of, like, boxes I've had to, like, drag out to the street. Yeah.

Like, little stuff like that. The trash, the doormen. The flat tie or the cars. Yeah. Yeah. I feel. Such packages are a nightmare. Also, I, listen, I am going to put this out into the world.

I'm going to manifest that this is not going to happen. Tessa met my neighbor. And she said he's hot and he's Israeli. And I am not sleeping. with him. I will not do it. I will not create another situation in this world where I have fucked my neighbor. Shut up. Yes, you will. Yes, you will. Not maybe not right away. You are absolutely fucking him. Shut up. He doesn't live above you, right? He's next door. It's different. It's not that different. I used to fuck my next door neighbor in Atlanta. Actually, I didn't fuck him. He was a boarding a virgin, but he, you know,

came on my back once, but it was a little weird for a minute. But you will fuck him. So I, I was like, Tessa, is he hot? How did Tessa see him? So she was picking up packages for me and my apartment to where I bought her a tank of gas. And the owners of the house had said, can you come get the keys today? And I said, I can't come Sunday, Monday.

And they said, boy, you can't get them to you today. So it's a block from Airbnb, so she stopped over and got the keys and she met the neighbor. Let me just pull up how you wrote it because I've been meaning to discuss this with you, Tessa. Tessa looks flies. Hell did I look at her.

Yeah, Tessa looks great. Tessa's going to the IHeart Radio Music Awards. We weren't invited. Tessa's going. No one invited us. How does that work? Tess, you look great. I love these earrings.

Yeah. So I had asked Tessa like a series of questions. She was at the house. She met the owner and I don't know what they're like. They're very, they're like artsy. There's like a whole art installation of my house. And then she was saying your neighbor's hot. So I said,

and he's Israeli. How old is he? Oh my God, such tea. And I said, this is great. How's the owner? So you sent me like a series of text. But back to back, she wrote, I would say late 20s, early 30s.

He seems sweet. Artsy, older guy. And I was like late 20s, early 30s. This bitch. And it took me older guy. I'm sorry, I'm just processing it. Older guy. I will explain what happened here because I'm reading this just going, late 20, late 20s, early 30s seems sweet and artsy kind of older guy.

I was like, fired. This bitch just told me that I am a million years old. She was responding to two separate things. Okay, okay. She meant that he was in his 20s and the owner was older. Jess, I read this so funny. It's funny, though, because I've said this before when I was in my, like, young 20s, like, whatever, 21, 22. I was like, a 30-year-old?

Ew. Gross. Like, to date. Like, because I had friends that would be into guys in their 30s and I'd be, like, disgusting. I know, like, how do you do that? What? Sick. 30?

It's a grandpa. Me too. My friend's, like, my best friend is engaged now to somebody. I think he's 10 years older than her. I remember they started dating, and I was like, how do you do it? that. Yeah. He's so much. And I remember he was like 32 at the time, I think, when she started telling me about him. That was like the oldest man I could ever think of. Okay. So, my nail situation is that like, I have never had fake nails in my life. So these are gel X. They're just a

healthier fake nail. So they're not acrylics. You told me to do this. Unless you really feel the need to have acrylics for some reason, this is what everybody's doing. So I've been getting acrylic now so I was like 14. Yeah. I've always had them. And for 20 years, I had them. And then some people don't want to use the UV for gel. Right. But other than that, like, this is such a game changer for me, and I'm in and out of there in two seconds, they don't sand my nails down. It still takes a minute.

But yeah, unless you have some emotional attachment to acrylics, you're probably going to do these now. So for my first time, I mean, they're fake. They're a fake nail. They put them on, they glue them on, they gel, and then they do gel polish over them. This is crazy if you're, again, I have my hands in the air if you're watching on YouTube. These are the short ones. I get short too.

Short medium long. Yeah, I get short. What are the long ones? They look really crazy. The short ones are all I can do. This is the only way I can function in the world. How do you function? So I love the way these look.

They're like a Barbie pink. I went to this place called Mini Lucks in Beverly Hills, by the way. And I was joking earlier on the pedicure. It just took a while and it was nice and relaxing. She did an amazing job. But for a New Yorker, you're used to like quick, quick, quick. But that's very specific to New York where a lot of people don't like that. So I had a great experience.

A different girl did my manicure. We talked the whole time. I really loved her. She's great. And I love the way they look. Who wouldn't want this? I feel like my hands look like younger. It's like a more feminine look.

sexy, but they are an inconvenience, and I... But you're really not used to it. I don't know. I've never, it's never crossed my mind ever. But it's like, people are like, you'll get used to it. I'm like, yeah, but I don't need to. I don't need to get used to it. I don't need these. So I'm trying to decide how I feel about it. Like, I get it. Like, beauty is pain. Beauty is annoying. But like, this is my life. Like, these are my hands. And so I don't need a minor inconvenience on my fucking hands every day just for looks. Like, I hate it, right? Like, what... I knew you were going to hate this so much.

It's like I'm getting used to it, but like what I was Googling Saturday night, how to take contacts out with long nails. Like everything just, I'm slowed down in life even by just a tiny bit, and I can't live that way. And I don't need to. This isn't a like thing that I need to get used to. I do. Well, you have nice nail beds and longer fingers.

So you've seen me without these. It's not good. It's not good. It's a horror show. Well, whatever. You're used to them. You're fine. Also, I don't like to pick my nose as much as you do.

So I was just like, she is barreling towards a situation in which she is not going to be able to pick her nose in much of cheer. Shut up, Rita. You can't. You can't pick your ears. You can't pick your nose. You are a known nose picker you talk about on the show. But everybody picks their nose. All right, fine.

I'm not sitting around like digging up in there, you know. Oh, I do like when one pops off sometimes because I can't pick my nose that day. Okay. Everybody picks her nose. So it's just little things that you have to kind of adapt. and I'm just unsure if it's for me, but I'll see how I feel I'm on what the day, two, three of getting used to it.

And they aren't so extreme. I don't understand how people do the long. They don't type. You can't type on a laptop. You use the pads of your fingers, but I don't, yeah, I don't know. I don't see, I don't know anybody that gets nails longer than that's you?

You look at like the card? Yes, I mean, they feel like celebrities and the Kardashians, they look insane. Kardashians have 17 people to do everything. Yeah, they hire people to pick their noses. Yeah, they have other people picking their roses for them. I mean, I don't know. There's stuff under them. Like, you know, just very, like, they look lint. Like,

like there's lint under them. Like, you've got to keep them clean. Like, I love that the way that they look, but I don't know if this life is for me. And I did this because I just couldn't keep my nails long anymore. Like, I want them painted. We do shows. My hands are everywhere when we record. And so I want to always do gel. And I think about what my nails look like post-quarantine. They were long and they were gorgeous. Like, my mom has long, strong nails. Like, my natural nail is longer and stronger, but I can't keep them long. They break. Then I'm upset. So I was like, let me just try this. fake nail journey. I know you're gonna hit it.

But like, I need to weigh how much I love the way they look. So are you, like, mesmerized by your nails? Do you just love talking with them? Yes. I feel like you're talking more with your hands than you used to. Well, I'm doing right now.

But maybe I'm not, like, maybe I also don't, yeah, but I don't like notice it as much maybe. But, like, I cannot put my hands on my face enough in my Instagram stories. I'm doing Instagram stories with, like, fingernails in my mouth just so people see them. I'm mesmerized by them. I think they look sexy.

Like, I'm ready to go on a, like, a date. I'm trying to go on a date this week. I'm manifesting it. I have like three guys I'm texting with right now from Raya. Texting, texting. We've moved on from the app, which I have tips on how to do that. Maybe we'll talk about it next week because I've been doing a great job. Like I posted this video in the car afterwards and I was like, I cannot believe this, but she's not texting me to tell me yet. And this girl was like, I screamed. She was like, they looked so good. And like, I saw your watch and everything was just like so baller.

And I was just like, they're awesome. But at what price? I mean, beauty is pain. But like pain to me, like shoot me up with a bunch of needles and that I'm in and out. This is day-to-day inconvenience. I mean, that's why I don't get permanent hair extensions, because, like, we were talking to our friend's wife about this, and she was like, I get new ones sewn in every three weeks. It takes maybe like an hour and a half. It's, you know, you get used to it, but it like hurts your head. And I was just like, because she looks so good. So I was like, just tell me what you do. When she told me the process, how often, how much expensive that must be, I was like, absolutely not. Yeah. And I think maybe I'll get used these and

I'll want to do them. I think just a tiny bit shorter would be great. But, I don't know. I need someone to go with me. I was there for two and a half hours. I told you it takes a long time. Two and a half hours. I get the pedicure. Oh, okay. Yeah. It really forces you to talk to people, which I hate because you are there a long time. Well, I like to go with a friend. Kate, had went a few days earlier. I was like, never do this again, Kate. Like, I can't believe you do this to me. Like, we're going together from here on out. But I actually really enjoyed talking to the girl who did them. And I know her whole life story. I know about her boyfriend. I know where she's from. I know what he does for work. I know about their families. Like, I really am glad I got someone that, wanted to chat too. That's fun. I mean, you know, I made a new friend at, it's in Pinkies, in Dogtown between like Santa Monica and Venice. I'm obsessed, but I made a new friend there and I just felt like, yeah, like two hours talking to her and everything the salon. So you make new friends

in L.A. Yeah. I just go over your nails said. I can't stop staring at it. I can't believe you did it. I knew you were going to hate it, but you would have really hated acrylics. I would have had to hear about this for weeks. No, they weren't even on my radar once you told me like this new, No, which she would have hated. And then I'll just kind of say, like, I have been talking to a few different people that I met on Raya. But one thing that I found interesting that I want to know what you think, someone asked me my height. I was shocked. I was shocked, but I'm not insulted by it because I think that, like, every woman on earth is like, God, no, Talia.

God, no, God, no, God. So, like, why shouldn't men get to ask? You know, it's not like, he asked you how she weigh. I wasn't insulted, but Jared, I had texted you and Jared, Jared, Freed. I always say Jared, like everybody knows who he is. Most you do. But anyway, Jared Fried, a great friend of ours, been on the podcast. He has a couple podcasts as well.

And he was like, guys are really getting ahead of it. But I think this guy, I don't know, he has like a more timid energy. I've been enjoying talking to him. But he seems a little shyer. And I feel like he's probably run into things where women thought he was taller and they were disappointed. He's 5'10. Oh, you think he's asking because he's, yeah, I'm not going to read his whole conversation. No, he's absolutely asking because he's not taller.

I kind of love that. He, I think, could tell I was tall from my photos. Yeah. And then he was like, how tall are you? And I was like, I've never been asked that before. I mean, I told him. And then he was like, I'm assuming you like guys that are like a lot taller. And I was like, no, I mean, I don't know.

And he said like, I'm 510. Which means he's 5.9. No, he said, I'm an honest 510. And I was like, right, because most guys that say 6 feet or 510, right. Most guys that say 510, 59 or 58. But I don't know. It was kind of cute. I don't want someone that's insecure, though.

You know, like, I don't like leading with, like, I'm sorry, I'm not taller. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's just like, you know, we can all acknowledge that, like, looks do matter at some point on an app when you're, you have split second to judge somebody. And if the guy's just like, I'm not the tallest. And if she's really tall, maybe she doesn't like a guy this. And we have one second to make these decisions. So I don't hate it. It's not my favorite thing in the world. But, like, I could even see a guy who's, like, six, six saying to me, like, how tall are you?

Because he doesn't want to look like he's walking into a restaurant with his daughter, you know? I am significantly shorter than the average person. I'm five feet tall. So I can see somebody be like, just, you know, heads up, but how tall are you? And I would be okay with it. Yeah, to me, it came off a little insecure with the follow-ups. I'm not going to read the whole conversation.

But I didn't mind it. I clearly was not offended by it. Sure, I'll tell how tall I am. People want to know this stuff. Also, who cares? But he obviously cares, and it makes me just think that he's run into it before where maybe someone felt disappointed upon meeting him

or something like that. But we're still in touch. I just thought it was so funny. like all these years, being out on these streets, being on the apps, all this stuff. No one's ever asked me how tall I am. And I was just like, I think it's funny. So shocking. I've never heard anybody do it. I mean, you think people would ask me, but I don't want on dating apps. And I'm like, I just want you to be my height at least. Yeah. Like, I don't know. So, and then I was saying this other guy, he's like very, very tall, like real tall. And I was like, if I end up with like a huge

dude, I will enter my stiletto era. When you said the optics on this are great. Like, catch me in all LaRude six-inch platforms. If I'm with a dude that's like six, seven, I'm going off. My life is going to change. And I'm not saying that I don't wear shoes. I just, I feel like that will empower me. I mean, like, when I was with Rob and Allison, because you were like marrying Bobby and Izzy, so I like went to Bobby and Izzy's wedding with Rob and Allison.

Allison wore heels. Rob's what, six-five? Yeah, six-five. She was wearing heels. I looked like I was their toddler with them. She was eye to eye with him. Same with Steph. If Steph wears a heel,

she's, I, I with Matt. Like, I don't really want to walk the streets six three. I will, but like, it puts me so much taller than you than everybody,

even conversations at parties. Like, I don't want to be towering over everybody. It's not about insecurity. It's just about, like, my back. It'll hurt. No,

I don't like if he will lean down to talk to me. But like, if my man is 6'7, I will be 6'4 every day. I'll never go out with you two. Catch me at the end of that relationship. I'll never see you again. Every time we hang out, I will get there early.

Well, I always get there early. But I will always be preceded, so I don't have to stand up next to you. Okay. You needed to catch up on something that you teased last week. So my mom got catfish. And she texted me about this like two minutes before Ashley and I walked on stage. So I, like, didn't even have like the time to like lean into this and explain to her like what was happening. Because my mom is 71.

Wait, really? Yeah. Well, my mom turned 71 today. They're the exact same age. That's so cool. Okay, so it's 15 minutes before we walk on stage. My mom texts me and she says, I seem to have met a new man. Someone sent me a text. He texted the wrong person. Now he's texting me, sending me his photo. This could be a funny thing for your show. She sends a photo of this guy. It is a model. He is crazy rich Asian. Yes. I mean, he's gorgeous. It's so hot. It's also a professional photo, clearly. Honestly, I'm never run that. through eyestock. Man in tucks that party. I didn't have time to reverse image search this, but let's find this guy. That's eye stock. I'm going to buy that for three credits and send it back to your mom. So if you guys remember, basically during the end of COVID, I think I got catfish by somebody. He sent me a text. It was like a little provocative and it was like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I seem to maybe like reached the wrong person. He sent a photo of him with the dog. I spent all day long talking to this guy. You guessed in the middle of the day that it was a catfish.

You were like, this isn't real. His dick was too perfect. Because it happened to me, I feel like a few years prior, but I went with it and I acted like I was an old lady. Yeah, I did not. I was like, I'm going to date this guy. Yeah. I was like, that's my man.

Setting him photos. Wait, was this 2021? Yes. Or 2020. It was before we had Neve on the podcast. It was before I got my nose done. All I'm saying is like different time. Yeah, I'm nothing else to do.

Yeah. I was doing nothing else. Horny. Yeah. Yes. I mean, I was just hanging out all day long. We're sexting by the end of the day. I know.

And then he got like a little crazy. And since then we had Neve on the podcast, Neve Shulman of the show Catfish. And I read this to him. And he was like, there's like a hundred tells in this, this is not real. So now we're catfish experts. And we read it on the podcast.

Turn out the guy who was catfishing me. The girlfriend of that guy, the real person in the photos reached out to us. It was crazy. But so Ashley and I were like very adept at like reading all the tells. So my mom's like, seriously, I'm 701. First thing I said, I'm about to walk on stage.

I'm like, I got to just deal with this right now. I said, this is a catfish. Do not engage. And I said, or do. It's funny. What did he say? I said, it's always some sort of provocative thing with a hot pick. This is clearly a model.

And she said, what is a catfish? This is hysterical. He started out supposedly trying to contact a bakery in Irvine. He said he had the wrong number. He told me I was very kind to respond. I have no idea why he sent the photo. So I tried to explain this to her. She's like, who would believe this?

This is so fun. I should send him a photo myself at 25. Oh, at 20. Your mom, man. She's got jokes sometimes. She sends him this photo from the 70s. Also, he told her, he's like, that's a cool filter. Your mom's like, it was a 70s. It's Sepia. He told my mom that he worked in finance and banking and his company was having a big

party and he needed to go to this bakery to pick up the cake. And I was like, you think a guy in finance is going to pick up his own cake for the company party. That's what you think? Okay. He doesn't know. I know. She doesn't know. So then I get a text the next morning at 10 a.m. You were right. Oh my God. He is still texting me. I don't know why. I keep Mark. at his junk, he still keeps getting through. I said, I know this trick, blah, blah. So I'm just explaining this to her. So she says to me, I want to block him, but I don't know how.

So I explain to my mom how to block him. And then she's like, I said to him, my daughter says you're a catfish. Her mom is violent. And I said, let me guess. He got like a little hostile after that. And she was like, yeah, he started doing that thing. You talked about it on the podcast. It's, what's this term?

And she starts, like, spot. And then I was like, gaslighting mom. She's like, yeah, that's the one. You talked about it on your show. My mom's a therapist, by the way. So I guess gaslighting is like a newer term. My mom's been out of the game for 15 years. She's out the guy.

He's out the guy. It's just so funny because I like guessed every single step of this. And like as soon as she called him a cafe, she said he was like spiraling. And I was like, mom, why would this man be actively keeping on trying to talk to you? Look at this man. Right. That just was trying to contact a bakery. Like, yeah, like people would be like, oh, sorry, wrong number.

That goes about saying. But it's just like if you actually think about it. Yeah, honestly, I haven't even asked her, but honest to God, I will bet a million dollars. She told him the name of the podcast and who I am. My daughter is this podcast. They talk about catfishing. It just was so funny. And it's just like, it's funny because this is so far outside of the realm of anything that would happen to her.

And I just imagine her late at night. It's like, we were in Sacramento. So she's texting me at 745. So it's 10.45. She's all wind up on the couch. My stepdad's asleep. And she's just like, I'm going to lead into this. Yeah.

I love it. I do love it. Chip looks through her phone. He's like, Marna, are you cheating? She's like, when's the last time you fuck me, Chip? She's having an emotional affair. Oh my gosh. Okay, I'm going to try to make this as quick as possible. Logan is probably here by now, but quick wrecks. So listen, I did start Daisy Jones in the six. I've watched four episodes. I love it. You guys should check it out. It's filmed like it's a true story. It's based on a book, but it's loosely based on Fleetwood Mac. So I'm inspired, loosely based on Fleetwood Mac. everything that went down there and the breaking up with the band and whatever. Sex Life. So if you guys know, I was obsessed with Sex Life Season 1. That was summer of 2021. I couldn't get enough of it. I was so horny all the time. Like whatever. Sex Life Season 2. Listen, I enjoyed it.

And there was- I'm seeing people talk shit. I say that I enjoyed it. That's the word. It's fine. I finished it. Way less interactions between the leads between Brad and Billy. But there's still a lot of sex. There's a whole other storyline with her best. friend. Anoshka had this great take. She said that she was like, I feel like they thought that people watched it for the sex. And so they were like, we'll give them sex. We have all these other people. Like, Billy has a new love interest and there's her best friend. There's still sex. There's still hot sex. But we loved it because of the connection between the two leads. I don't care if they even have sex. I just want them to be in the same room. Like we're watching

because we're obsessed with them. Oh, that people don't like it. And so there was just so much less of it. I mean, I needed 80% more Brad. You know, like, it just, I'm not going to spoil the whole thing, but just don't listen if you want to watch, right? So I'm going to give it light, spoiler alert. Raina doesn't watch the show, which I just can't wrap my head around. But I don't watch Vanderpump, so it's fine. But it has a happy ending. I would have written that ending a million different fucking ways.

Like, they end it with Brad and Billy being together, this beach wedding. There had just been a wedding. I have just been a wedding. I would have done something so much more creative. And then she whispers to him that she's pregnant. I would have had them in the same stuff. time where she got pregnant when they were together a long time ago, I would have had them end it the way they ended the first season when she walks into his apartment and then the old

couch is there because he had to get a got a new couch. If you watch, you know what I'm talking about. I would have come up with a million different fucking ways to end this. It was so easy. But again, the show is not that great of writing. It's not that great of acting. There's one actor in particular. I'm not going to put this person on blast, but that is so bad that it's almost painful to watch, not one of the leads, one of the more fringe characters. It's just, it's what it is. And it was fine and I enjoyed it enough. I kept watching it, but I was not as enthralled nearly as I was in the first season, and I just wanted more of the two leads. And then someone said, well, maybe they didn't put them together as much having sex because they're a real life couple. And maybe they wanted

to protect their relationship more. I don't know how much truth there is to that. Well, I was surprised because, you know, the trailer that's running on Netflix for it, the main character's not in it. So, yeah, it's like. Which I was, I just thought maybe they changed the storyline. I, yeah. I mean, basically there's a whole other storyline, which I do also really like her best friend, Sasha, this other guy. And then she is a new love interest, this like restaurant guy, like, whatever. But it's like I'm dying for them to be on screen together.

And it was not nearly enough. And that's why people love the show. So it's fine. You guys can watch it. I just, I think it's done now. I'm pretty sure. I have no idea if there's going to be. This feels like it's buttoned up,

but I could be totally wrong. And then tonight's the Bachelor finale. So I don't want to be too dated because we're recording on Monday afternoon. I hated what happened last week with this whole sex thing. I just. talking up about it. I hated it. I hate that he had to kind of relieve his own guilty conscience by telling everyone that he had sex

with this girl and airing her business all over TV into the other girls. And I really didn't like any of it. I very wrapped up in like Catholic guilt, which he said and the weirdness about the sex. And it's like, if you can't think about sex in this in a healthy way, don't go on this show. And I understand the boundaries. But

bottom line is I just didn't like it that he had to blast what they had done to relieve himself of his own guilt. Yeah. I mean, it was hard to watch. And I know this is what makes great television. I mean, you could never manufacture the level of drama that came from the last two season finale. So, like, I don't know how much the producers play into, like, you got to talk about this. Because it felt, like, mean-spirited almost. Did he, like, told her he didn't want have sex, and then two adults made a consenting decision. Now he's crying on national television because

you had sex with him and he's so upset and destroyed. And if I'm this person and I'm like, I thought we had a nice night together. And now you're like, slut-shaming me almost. I mean, it feels so bad to watch this. Right. And of course, people are taking the take of like, well, he told her he didn't want to have sex and she pressured him into it. It's like, you don't know what went down in that room. So let's just know that we don't know when we went on behind closed doors. And that's not good either if that's what happened. If she was like, oh, I'll get him.

I'll get him. I'll lock him in. But regardless, they shared that. And then he felt the need to tell everyone about it to relieve himself of his own guilt. And that's the thing that I hate it most. And so there's that. We'll see what happens tonight. Actually, I already know who wins.

Tessa told me she gave me the spoiler. But whatever, you guys know, we've talked about Zach. We met him, you know, so I just kind of like to follow up on our feelings about it. Imagine you fucked him. I mean, he DM'd me at 2 a.m. What was he trying to do? Maybe he was trying to not fuck. Maybe he was like, I know she'll be asleep.

I've been thinking about this. Because he has this weird Catholic guilt about sex. So like, maybe he was just like, I know this is too late for her to come over. I know, but what else would have been the point? Because like then you can still form like we'll make out with each other relationship. He tried to see you in Austin when we were there. And then you bailed on seeing him. I was wondering like if he actually waited until like super late at night because it was like

then the moment had passed. I wonder. I'm wondering about this. You know, hindsight is 2020. I definitely should have tried to fuck him so I could tell you guys. So you could sledge him him on this podcast. Okay. Okay.

Succession season four started last night. I have not watched the episode. It is one of my favorite shows of all time. And people are saying, so I read this thing piece about it. And basically Logan Roy, it's based on the Murdox, if you know who that family is. Murdoch, not Murdoch, which is murder family. Murder. So Logan Roy owns the company and then his kids are now in L.A.

And like they're trapped in L.A. And people are saying it's a metaphor for purgatory being trapped in L.A. Well, did you see this overheard L.A. posted succession characters as if they lived in L.A. I loved it. It was so funny because it said cousin Greg walks around the grove and says this is just like Europe. And the first time I went to the grove, I said it's like Europe and I hate myself. And then it also said he goes to horses, expects to ride one. and horses commented.

Did you see it? No. It says he goes to horses, which is an incredible restaurant. Rain and I've been. We always go with Kane J. They're like celebs there. And it says goes to horses

and expects to ride one and horses commented under it, giddy up. Really? And this is on overheard. Nothing made me feel like I'm actually starting to like understand L.A.

like understanding that whole pose. I understood everything. Oh, God. Okay. Last thing. Guys, you're going to be upset, but love is blind is out and Raina hasn't watched it.

So we're not going to really get into it. She hasn't had time. Yeah. We'll do a whole YouTube recap. That was the best. stay on love is blind. I watched the first chunk. So the first five, they gave you five. I like it. If you've watched

it, if you know, you know, these two girls are mean girls. They're really nasty. Their true colors really come out. I feel like people want me to really pop off on this. I like to remember that these are humans too and they could hear this and yeah, it's brutal to watch. They're like maddening. They're really

nasty and one more than the other but they're both just like they really have teamed up into like this type of girl that we haven't seen on the show. quite honestly. They make Zanaf look like a fucking dream. Well, it's fascinating because all these girls have, like, such wonderful friendships after the show. Like, that's one of the nicest things to see about love is blind. All these girls walk away, like, best friends normally.

Yeah. So there are two, like, mean girls on the show. I'm sure they're going to watch and reflect after the fact and be like, wow, I was the worst. But who knows? Yeah, it can be tough to watch at times because you're like, you're just really mean. And then you're mean to the guy you end up with. But whatever. I have one couple that I'm the most obsessed with. like my Lauren and Cameron. If you're watching it, you probably know who I'm talking about. And I really like it.

I always love it. Every season is a win. It's the best show. It can't get old. The way that it's structured is like you're always going to be in the edge of your seat. And we'll continue to dive into it. You're going to watch it this week, probably. As soon as humanly possible.

All I have to do is move out of a place, move into a place, and then we have to go on tour. We should do some shows. And then also Rob's going to be here. We've lots of stuff to do. Yeah. Okay. Yay.

Let's get into it with Lille. Logan. All right, guys, we are so excited to welcome back, really a fan favorite. Like, for the second week in a row, the hottest guest, back to back. Women, what do you know? Yeah. There we go. We are so excited to have her in the studio with us today. She is a behavioral scientist turned dating coach and the author of How to Not Die Alone as the director of relationship science at the dating app Hinge. And before that, she ran Google's behavior science team, The Irrational Lab. You have seen her work literally everywhere. The New York Times Time, GQ, Glamour, VICE, HBO, South by Southwest, and this podcast. Please welcome back to the show, Logan Uri.

Yay. Hi. So happy to be here. You know, I love doing the show last time, but since then I went to your live show in San Francisco and I was like, holy shit, I've never seen fandom like this. People were going wild. The people around me had driven from 10 hours away to be there. It was just like a really crazy live experience. So now I'm even more impressed by what you do. Well, thank you for saying that. It's really, I mean, considering off. A lot of shows are really so special. And we are announcing the San Francisco show next week. Yay. Okay. Maybe I can score some tickets. We got you. Okay. We got you. Can we imagine? We're like, we'll send you the link. You're on our accomplice forever. We've vibrated for you today.

Oh, great. I'm excited. And you are staying in Hollywood. You came for the show. So thank you for doing that. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Yes. Okay. Can we just get an update on your life? Yeah. Things are great. You know, still at Hinge, having fun. I am. enjoying working with Kimberly, who's my associate, who's here today. And I just taught a class. It was great. I had 140 students, and we think it was our best one yet. And it's always really fun having the older people in the class because I feel like at first they're like, what's going on with Slack? And by the end, they're like having so much fun in the Zoom chat. And you got married and bought a house. Yeah. So you came on the show. Yeah. Okay. Because, listen, last time on the show, you just said,

like, I live on a commune with all these people. Yeah, yeah. We just glossed over it. And we were like, We need more information. Ashley and I were like, I can't fucking believe we did not ask more questions about your setting, kept it rolling. I agree. I would love to talk about it because I do feel like it's a big part of my life. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So I got married in 2020 and I have a COVID wedding. And then last year I had my like full wedding, which of course, as people do nowadays, it was like a four day of fare with relay races and roasts. And it was really fun. But yeah, I live in a commune with 20 of my closest friends. And it's so fun.

20? Yeah. And what's the breakdown? It keeps getting bigger and bigger. It's pretty crazy. How do you get in? So a lot of us are friends of the people who started it. So this is a woman I worked with at Google 10 years ago and we've stayed good friends. And she and her husband are just very visionary. And they basically are like, what makes life fun being near your friends? If we want to have kids, we are afraid of being isolated. Let's set up an environment where if we want to have kids, it would be the best possible situation. So they bought this place. that was two different houses. But then what happens is people keep buying the house next door and the house next door to that. And then people move in and have babies so the number's really growing. But it's really wonderful. It's really wonderful. Why, ask how we get in? It's also just so fun. It's like, you know, I work and then I stop working in the afternoon and then like kind of feel depressed for a few hours. And then there's 730 dinner every night. And it's like, you just have this like boost of energy every night at this dinner. I'm like, I really think people are

supposed to live this way. I mean, 100%. I did a month with a group of friends summer 2021 in the Hamptons. Like, we just read it house for all of July. And I was like, this is my favorite life. You know, and sometimes I was there alone. One time right now and I was just the two of us there, like, people came and went. I had a boyfriend that summer, so I couldn't come out the whole summer. You missed out. You missed out. But I was like, I love this. This fills me up. Like, I am a people person. I want to be around people a lot. So luckily, I have a partner in my business, but I don't like being alone too long. And it does. You're right. It's like you could

have that downtime and you're like, I'm depressed, I hate my life. And then you just like go to the dinner and you're like, oh, right, life is great. Yeah. And also, you don't have to schedule it. I think part of dating, part of friendship right now is people are so busy. It's like, can you do this date? No. Can you do this date? No. Oh, I'm traveling. I'm traveling. And then you never meet up. It's like so much work to see your friends. I feel like I could masturbate to, you don't have to schedule it. I just, I feel like when I make a plan, I feel like I'm held hostage to it and I don't really like it. But I love last minute plans. I love deciding at six, I'm going to dinner a bunch of people at 615. This was my dream. It really is great because it's just the default. And you're not like, oh, dinner tonight's

going to be at 645, it's going to be at 745. It's like it's at 7.30. Everyone knows you show up. You can bring friends. You only have to cook like once every two weeks. We pay to have a professional chef twice a week. It really is great. And it's like, I can brag about it because it's not my vision. I'm sort of just a follower into this thing. But the people who run it, they just really do get, like, what makes people happy isn't a bigger house. It isn't necessarily the most beautiful neighborhood. It's living with your friends and seeing them every day. That's why I moved next door to my best friend. That's why when I moved to New York, I moved next door to my best friend. I'm like, this matters, you know, and it matters to be like, hey, you want to ready to walk the dogs?

Like being around your friends is like the top top. Wait, so, but you bought a house. I know. And I really feel like ambivalent about it. I'm happy that I bought the house. And it's really close to the commune, which is called radish. But I am sort of, as my therapist would say, grieving the leaving. Because I really do believe in this idea. And it's so cool for the new parents. So basically it's like you put your kid down to sleep. You have a baby monitor. You know, you step 50 feet into our communal dining area. And then if the baby cries, you just go back and deal with them or whatever the nicer term is. But it's not like you're isolated. It's not like, well, I can't come out and see you because my kid's asleep so you could come here,

you're sort of doing the adult thing with your partner and their kid happens to be nearby. And so I think it's really great for that. I think it's really special, and I can't hype enough alternate ways of living. Just because you were told there's this one way of living, like solo alone with your partner does not mean that that makes people happy.

Yeah. Are there single people in it? Yeah, there are single people. It has become more couples lately. Yeah. I don't think that's on purpose. I think it's like during the pandemic, it was a little harder to be single there

because this is a true story. Somebody was single, and we had really strict COVID rules, probably stricter than if you lived alone because you're responsible for multiple people. And even like my husband at the time was going through chemo, so he was immunocompromised. So we were really careful. So somebody would have to ask us, like, can I make out with this person? Like, am I allowed to have sex with this person? And we had to vote on it. Can I ask another question? So how do you feel like it affects a romantic relationship coming into the commune together? Do you think it help? hurts. Yeah. So there's a concept called OSOs, Other Significant Others, and it was created by this

woman, Elaine Chung, who was at Northwestern, and now she actually works with me at Hinge, and she's amazing. And it's the idea that back in the day, you used to rely on a village to fulfill your different needs, right? You might have one friend that you gossip with, one friend who you go get water with, one friend who you raise your kids with. And nowadays, we expect to get everything from our partners, and it's way too much pressure on them. And also, some people are just not good at certain thing. So like if you love Taylor Swift but your boyfriend doesn't and you make him go with you, like that's not really the best outcome for either of you. So other significant others is having people who play specific roles in your life and take the pressure off the relationship. And so when I moved in,

I actually wrote this modern love article about it about how radishes my OSOs and now our WhatsApp group, which like goes off a thousand times a day is called OSOs. So I think it's really good for relationships. Well, we can't talk about that enough. And I love this term. I didn't know the term. I didn't know the term. So we can't say it enough. Your partner is not supposed to be everything. Not at all. They don't even need to be sometimes you're the main person you're going to cry to. That can be your best friend. It's not realistic. And so I love that we have a name for it. Oh yeah. I feel like in my head is an inventory of like what type of story I tell different people. So there was this thing where like I really love coupons and saving money. And so like one time I did this like super complicated

thing to save $200. And then my husband came home from work. And, and then my husband came home from work. And I, like, told him this very long story. And he's like, Logan, I would have paid $200 to not hear that story. And now I'm like, got it. Okay, now I call my mom. And my mom loved this story because that's where I got it from. And it's like, I get a better reaction. I have a good time with my mom.

And my husband doesn't have to hear a story. He doesn't want to hear. And how much better is that than forcing your partner into this box? Like you said of, like, you have to go to the Taylor Swift concert with me. It's like, you're not going to be fun at the Taylor Swift concert with me. Yeah. And also, you're less disappointed because, of course, there's things that I wish my husband was more interested in, but he's not going to change. We've been together for eight years.

Why can't I just like accept how he is and be like, this other person is passionate about that too? And then the things that we really do enjoy doing together, let's do those. I love this so much. Like, we could do a whole episode on who you tell stories too. Like, I'm not telling a story to someone. If I don't know, they're not going to give me the reaction I was. Ashley gives me the biggest reactions. If I want to talk like hard-ass shit, sometimes, like, I forget who we were talking to is like two other girls and you're telling the story and like, we weren't really getting the reaction. that I think I give you sometimes. Like, I want to have like the biggest over-the-top reaction to stuff.

Yeah, it's not everything. I think that's an underrated quality as being a generous laffer. Like, if you are fun- That's our whole friendship. That's great. Yeah, I was standing outside. You guys laugh a lot. Yeah, that keeps our love a lot.

Thank you for say that. Like, I have a book went out with this girl. A friend of mine and I went out with this other friend years, years ago. I really liked her. Like, we'd been talking about some, like, work, stuff. And then we met up with her. This is like a convoluted. But bottom line is I walked away from the drinks with my friend and was like, shit, laugh.

Yeah. And she really likes us. And I could tell she was like entertained. Yeah. But she didn't laugh. Are you, I'm shook by this. I totally get it. I think that there's-

Different wavelengths. Yeah. And I, it's not fun. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that makes me think of is like, how do you make somebody comfortable being around you? And one of them is by smiling and laughing and making them feel comfortable. And it's like for you, like, you're literally a comedian.

in. And so you probably feel like, oh, like I'm killing it right now. This person's laughing. I crush that dinner. But when somebody doesn't laugh, then you get in your head being like, was I not funny tonight? Was I off? Did she not like me? And it's like, attention to everyone. If you just smile and laugh, people will feel more comfortable and enjoy being around you more. Actually, when people don't think I'm funny, I just, I think about Francis saying, I'm not bombing. You guys are bombing. I know that I'm funny and engaging all the time. I don't even have any friends I don't think that I wouldn't call generous laughers. Like that's my whole personality is laughing and getting laughed at.

Like to how I bond with people. Yeah. I don't understand. I totally. I totally get that. And yeah, going back to the commune thing, there's this research that just came out or it's like, actually it's been going on for 80 years. So it's the longest running longitudinal studies.

So they picked people who were teenagers in like the greater Boston area. and they've followed them for 80 years. And so you can see what affected people's happiness. It's like Harvard Happiness study. And they've had like really cool people in it, like JFK was in it, multiple presidents. And what they found is the number one thing that predicts happiness and physical health

is social fitness. So basically how good are your relationships, how strong are your bonds? It's probably something that we all intuitively knew, but just seeing it out there, I'm like, yes. Why do I love living at Radish? Why do I love this community? Because it's really good social,

fitness. It's this feeling of like I go and I work things out. Like I recently got a performance review at work and they were like, everything's great. And then I got some unsolicited feedback at Rattish. And I was like, this is tough to hear, but it's real. And so it's like a place where people are just like observing you. Like if I go to dinner and I seem down, somebody will text me like, hey, is everything okay? Like you didn't seem like yourself. I'm like, that's very safe. Like as a human to like have people watching how you're doing and like make sure you don't fall between the cracks. Like over 40% of Americans say that they don't have a best friend. Doesn't that make you sad?

It does. And I almost like, I love that it. It's like a forced social interaction that you can't escape. I'm going to make this sound better. But it's like you can't just stop being friends with those people, right? Because you're in a social community with them. You live with them. And it's the same thing with like me and Ashley.

Like I'm not going to drift apart from Ashley because she acted shitty at dinner one night or because I let her down one day or something. Because like it is a forced social interaction because we work together with business partners. we have to talk about stuff that happens. And it strengthens the relationship so much because you have no other choice but to deal with it and deal with it quickly. And I like that, you know? Nothing makes me sadder than when I see a friend or anybody, friend of a friend, whoever it may be, random person, like decide to move out of like a city, for example, where they have all of friends and a social life and like buy some big house in the suburbs and be isolated and then even have a kid and feel more isolated. And that's not to say that you can't totally build out that group in the suburbs, but I'm saying when you don't. And then you're really just alone. And I've seen friends go down this path and they are really depressed. And I'm like, hello. Like you just like move for what? Because the how, I mean, everybody has different reasons. But I'm saying if your only reason was because you kind of thought that was what your life was supposed to go like, you're like, we got to move out of the city. We have to move to the suburbs and buy a big house and raise this family. And it's like, well, I don't know at what cost. Yeah, I totally agree. I. I, I think a lot about making decisions that are aligned with your values.

And so for me, my value is friendship, being really involved in other people's lives, sharing meals. At Radish, we have a hot tub. We have a sauna. We have a cold punch. And it's like, I couldn't afford all those things by myself. But like if you have 20 people putting money in, then you can. And so it really feels like living with my values.

But so many people just do what they think they're supposed to do. And like, I think the American dream as we knew it is dead. Like obviously there's all those memes, right? Like millennials can't buy houses. There's all these huge financial issues. But people really think like, oh, I'm supposed to go to college, graduate, get married, buy a house in the suburbs, have 2.5 kids. And it's like, I don't really think that makes people happy. And it's also why I'm a fan of nonmonogamy.

I'm not non-monogamous, but I'm glad that some people are. And I feel like they should be able to create something else. And I just sent out a newsletter about this. And this woman wrote back being like, this is again. God. This is against your Jewish faith. Like, this is wrong. And I was just like, just because you don't like it. For who, you? She just like was very upset that I sent this to all my subscribers. I was like, just because you don't like it, you don't have to choose it. But doesn't mean it's wrong for someone else. And like the idea of the traditional marriage, one person for life, it's not

working for 40 to 50 percent of people. So like, let's come up with something else that some people can choose. And so I love that idea of being creative. And I also like the idea of living in a more creative setting. Yeah. Well, Rain, it was funny because we were very close to doing this. I was going to do this with me and then two other couples, remember? Like, Rob and Allison and Bobby and Izzy, we were going to get this big house on the Upper East Side. We went and looked at it. It was a whole building. Oh, cool. And then we just didn't. I was like, I think I might want to move to LA. You know, like, but Raina was like, I feel like you could get some press on this. And I was like, what? And she was like, it's really cool and unique if you guys go through this that you're

deciding to live a different way. Also, that's funny. It's like a married couple, a non-married couple, a single person, a baby, a baby. You know, and I was really into it. It just wasn't the right house and it wasn't the right time. But I just remember you being like, this is so fascinating. And I'm like, I guess you're right because it's not normal. I mean, age-wise, it's not normal. Right.

It's not normal. I mean, who can afford to live by themselves and would choose to live in a situation like that? It's like maybe we are seeing more people doing that, you know? It's really interesting. And also a bunch of people in the house are children of immigrants. And we laugh about how like our parents from other countries, like one person is from Ukraine. One person's from India. It's like their parents are like, we move to the U.S. so that you could, you know, buy a house and have this nice life. And then you're just like living

how we lived there. Like you're like, resting. You move on a kibbutz now. Yeah, it's basically kabuts vibes. And then we're like, no, but this makes us happy. Or my best friend who lives in New York, she'll be like, my friends think that you live in this commune and you all have sex with each other. I was like, nobody has sex with each other other other than the couples that are in relationship. Maybe you should start. That sounds fun. I was wondering about that too. I was like, is this like a sex cult? It's really not at all.

But it would be more exciting for me if you guys start having sex with each other. I know. A person is moving in actually this weekend who wrote a really great article about a sex cult and is writing a book on it. I don't know if you saw this movie on Netflix about like this female orgasm cult. What? It was called One Taste. Okay.

Anyway, you should check her out. Her name's Ellen Hewitt. Your alley. A cult about orgasms you don't know about. Yeah. Basically, the meditation practice was orgasmic meditation, and it was basically, like, stimulating the clit. I think you need to move to San Francisco. Yeah.

I'm done moving for quite some time. Okay. Okay. This was not why we brought you here today, but thank you so much. I'm very happy to talk about it. I'm really glad we asked. This is really enlightening. And you can submit your application to me.

To radish. Yeah. So basically, we were not sure we're going to talk to you about today. You and I were on the phone. you pitched Ashley and I a topic, and we both were just like, yes, perfect, love it, great. And you'd send out a newsletter, got a lot of positive feedback. And basically the title was, am I undatable? So let's talk about, like, how you came to start writing about this and the theory.

Because you, I mean, you could just take it away. I mean, this was. Yeah, let me tell you the origin. So, you know, I teach this dating class and somebody asked this question where she was like, one of the reasons why I'm a hesitator and why I haven't been dating is because I have a really bad relationship with my family. And she didn't get into all the details, but she was like, it inevitably comes up that people want to talk about your family and your family traditions.

And she's like, I just don't know what to say, so I don't go on dates. And so live, we workshopped what she could say. And we talked about how she could really own her story, own the narrative, and talk about it from a place of growth. And I happen to know her, so I really know that she embodies this. And so we talked about how she could say on a date, you know, I'm not close to my family, but because of that, I've worked super hard to develop relationships with my chosen family. I have an amazing group of friends. and I'm really excited to build a family with somebody one day.

I love that. I love it. Remember I went on to date with that guy and he said that he hated both of the siblings? And if he had sort of packaged that as like, I'm not really close with them, but I have this great community here, I would have walked away feeling completely different. That's literally the whole point. That's exactly it is people are out there feeling like they're undatable, feeling like they have something about them that makes them not worthy of love.

And in fact, everyone can tell their story in a way that's really empowered. where you feel powerful, not powerless. And actually, you know, all the research from Brune Brown about vulnerability is true. It's that when you let your guard down, that's when you let people in. And if you keep your guard up, someone's going to go on five dates with you and be like, yeah, she's really pretty, but I don't feel like I got to know her. I hear that all the time. And it's like because you're not letting somebody in.

And that's where connection happens. That's where you feel close to someone. And so the topic I'm excited to talk about today is basically how to own your story and how to deal with these things in your life that you feel make you undaatable. Yeah. You pitch so many different, like, angles, things that like having a chronic STD, having any kind of chronic illness, having been like getting cancer in your late 20s, going through something like that, the family stuff, or even just like feeling like maybe I'm too successful in men don't want me. There's like so many different things this applies to. So we can only go through some of them, but I think your advice applies to most of it.

Oh yeah, absolutely. And I think why I was excited to talk about this today was that I sent out a weekly newsletter and I usually get responses. But this one, it just really struck a chord. Like so many people wrote back and were like, I never really reply, but this one applies to me for this reason, or I don't date for this. And then I just wanted to like reach out to everyone and hug them and be like, everyone feels this way. And it was so interesting. It was like a lot of people wrote back and said, I've never been in a relationship. I've never been on a date. I've never been kissed. I'm a 40-year-old virgin. And there was so much anxiety around like, I don't have this experience. But then there was also the alternative of I've dated a ton of people and I'm worried that that's a red flag.

And it just was this feeling of everyone feels this way. Like, why are we not talking about this? And any of your listeners who feel like they're undatable, I just really do want to give them a pep talk. Well, and we'll get into it, but just at the base level, it's so normal and there is just so much shame. I mean, we've been running into a lot of people emailing us about what is perceived to be like an older virgin, you know, like late 20s, it can be 30s, whatever it may be. and people are just so embarrassed. And then you get into this place where you're like, now no one's going to want to be that person to do that.

You know, so all of these different things. I mean, everyone has wondered this at some point in their life. It's like if you've been single for a really long time, you're going to wonder it. Or if you've been on a million dates and then you haven't had a committed relationship, you're going to wonder it. Totally.

Like, no matter what's going on, everyone's kind of had those thoughts, whether they're fleeting or like permanent of like, am I just, what's wrong with me? Yeah, and I think it really weighs on, people. It's like, I don't want to go on a date because I don't want that topic to come up, which it inevitably will, so I'm not dating at all. And it's like, how can we empower people to feel like, yep, I have a thing that I say. I have my go-to line. It's two sentences, and then

we move on, and now I can date again. Like, it's honestly as simple as that. And a lot of it is telling the story from a place of growth. Like, Rayne, I love the example you just gave. What was it, the guy said he didn't, he wasn't close with his siblings? I mean, he said I don't like my sibling. You don't really have anything to do with each other. We talked about the podcast once or twice, but I was hard out on this guy from the way he spoke about his family. Yeah. But if he had packaged it as we're not really close, unfortunately, but I've created this other life for myself. I would have been fully in because people have all kinds of relationships with their family. Of course. And that's a thing. I think people feel like there's this thing about my past that makes me unlovable. But it's not

really about what you say. It's about how you say it. And if you can have that growth. So I have a friend in his late 30s, who's a recovering alcoholic. And he really spent a lot of his 20s working on this. So he would go on dates and people would be like, why don't you drink? And he would get really nervous to tell them and he felt like people were skittish around him. So then he learned how to tell the story. And he was like, you know, here's how I worked on it. This is what my recovery was like.

Now I'm really into mindfulness. Instead of drinking, I'm super into working out. And I really like who I am today and I don't regret it. And then he went on a date with this woman and he told her his, Beal and instead of rejecting him, she was like, while I grew up in an abusive household, and you have baggage, I have baggage, our baggage matches, and now they're in a great relationship, they have a kid, they have a house together. And it's really a feeling of like the thing that he thought would make someone reject him, actually made someone respect him. I think about this quote,

Shamprey Dram, who's been on the show, said it in her book and she said, people will think of you how you speak about yourself. And I really love it and I wrote it down and I try to think about about that when I talk about myself because it's exactly how you say about not drinking, for example. I remember my ex told me he was sober. It was just a nothing. You know, it was therapy. This is what's good for me. It makes me a happy person. This just makes me feel's healthier. And so I just never really thought that much about it. I was happy he was healthy, mentally, emotionally, physically. And like, that's all it was for me. And because he said it that way, that's how I thought about it. I was thinking about this recently because I have this best friend.

Her name is Lana. And in high school, we had this no shit talking policy, which, like, for high school was very revelatory, like everyone talked shit about each other, but we just would never talk shit about each other. And I was like, what if people just had a no shit talking policy about themselves? Like, what would that look like? And it's like, if you really just believe that you're great and you tell someone your story and it's like, this is my history, this is stuff that happened to me, or even stuff that's happening now, you're not asking for forgiveness, you're not asking for permission, you're saying, I'm sharing something about myself with you. And you get to engage with it or not.

And I really want people to make that mental shift because everyone who wrote back, whether it was an STI status, even being the survivor of sexual assault, there's so many dark things that people have gone through. And I really don't want that to prevent them from dating. Do you have any specific advice for things like that? Yeah. So one woman wrote in about her STI status. And she talked about how, you know, she has the moment when she tells people and she has the spiel and the information that she gives them. And then she said, I'm not scared because their reaction tells me a lot about their character. I just thought that it was such an empowering thing to say. It's like, if they respond in a

judgmental way, great, I just got some data on them. I just learned who they are. It's not that she expects everyone to be like thrilled about it or even to want to be intimate with her. It's more about the fact that this is a chance for me to tell somebody something about myself and then see how do they react to maybe difficult news. Yeah, for sure. And what? And what? What about stuff like late bloomers? You said you got an overwhelming amount of people saying I've never been in a relationship. I used to... We get that a lot too.

Yeah, it used to kind of get into my head, too, that I hadn't been in a relationship in a long time and that somebody would say to me, like, when was your last relationship? And I'd say, like, two years ago or three years ago. And, like, I used to worry, like, what does that say about me? I don't care at all. I don't feel you. You got a channel Diane Keaton. Did you see her recent interview?

No, what did she say? She's just like, I don't date and I don't want to. She's the most single icon. There is, but she just was like, yeah, I don't date. You got to own it. Own it. Owning it is such a big part of it. And I really like your quote about people will think about you, how you talk about yourself.

It's like if you say like, oh, this thing happened to me and will you still love me, then they are suddenly in judgment mode. But if you just own it, that's very sexy and confident. Like one of the stories that somebody wrote in was, I was on a date with a guy and he took a pill during lunch and he said, hey, I was in this bad accident and I have to take this pill for this. And she was like, I liked him more after that because that's really, you know, the Brunay Brown secret is when you let people in, they feel close to you. They feel like they can share. They feel like they're making a connection with you. And so many of my clients, they're like, you know, I'm getting first dates, but not second dates. And then I start digging in. Okay, well, what do you talk about on these dates? I'm like, that's so boring. That's very boring. And then I'm like, okay, like, tell me something

vulnerable. And this woman recently was like, I don't know what that is. I can't think of anything. And I was like, okay, okay, we need to dig into this because I really think this is what's going on with you. And I kind of taught her from scratch what it meant. And she has a great personality. She's so funny. I love working with her, but clearly this was a blind spot. And so I was like, let me give you some topics, like having aging parents, living far from your sibling, feeling like your friends are moving on in different stages of life and you're not there yet.

I was like just letting somebody in, even if it's just like sharing something that's hard for you or asking for advice, That's what make people feel connected and we're so worried that if we share who we are will be rejected but the truth is if you don't share who you are no one feels close to you

I have this client and I told her that she was like a fruit on the bottom yogurt I was like people are going on dates with you and they think you're vanilla because they're just scooping the top and they're like

this is just boring vanilla yogurt but you're actually so cool the fruit is just on the bottom they're not getting there so I was like we need to help you bring your fruit to the top and I was like give me your hot takes

And then she started being hilarious. She was like, well, I have a ranking of fruit. And she just started telling me, like, ridiculous things about her. I'm like, bring that to the date. Instead, you're playing it safe and people don't remember safe. People don't feel connected to safe. I was wondering what, like, what you see happening a lot. Are people trying to play it safe?

Or do they think, like, I'm too much? So they try actively to be too little. Like, why do you think people are going on dates and, like, not being? I can't relate. You know everything about me within an hour of meeting me. So. Yeah. And I don't think I'm, like, too much.

But, like, whatever, who cares? I'll be just enough for the right person, but why do you think people sort of like stamp this out? The first thing that comes to mind is almost like, why are your friends buying houses in the suburbs? It's like, they sort of think like that's what you're supposed to do. So they go on dates and they're like, oh, I should ask them what they studied in college. I should ask them where they live. I should ask them about their job. It's like the default is small talk.

But like I told this client, I was like, people don't really remember facts. They remember stories. Stories are the filing system for our brain. Like I could remember a story that I listened to on This American Life from 10 years ago because it's so memorable to me versus like I still have to Google, do I turn my wheels to the right or the left when I'm parking on a hill? Right? Because it's not a story. And so helping people craft their stories, that's what makes people feel like they're close to you and they remember you. I do have some clients who are kind of like the too much performers and I help them realize like people do not want to be steamrolled by you and they don't want to feel like there's a two drink minimum. but I really do seem to have... Yeah, I seem to have more of these clients. You know, I've had a bunch of clients who are virgins,

and they're like, it's not for any reason. It just never happened. I mean, that almost was me. I really do think that could have happened to me very easily if I just hadn't have met this guy right at the end of high school. Like, I could have gone to college a virgin, and then you get in your head about that, and then it just escalates. Yeah.

Yeah, it's just like, oh, fuck. Like, it's almost like you missed the window or something. You didn't. But, like, I feel like people feel like people feel. feel that way. Yeah, and then they asked me, they're like, so I just want to lose it. It doesn't have to be a big story. I'm like many years past caring about that. Do I have to tell the person that I'm a virgin? And what happens if I do? There's just a lot of baggage around it. I think it's a hard one. I don't have a hard and fast rule. Like, I think they'll probably feel more comfortable if they

tell the person because then they'll be more delicate with them and hopefully be nice. But I've also had friends and clients who tell someone and they're like, cool, no big deal. And then they get ghosted and they're like it's because of that. So one of my friends ended up just not telling the guy losing her virginity and feeling thrilled about it. I love that story. I mean, listen, we cannot give you rules for this, but Rain and I think like you should get in there with a vibrator and you should know what that feels like. Not to get too graphic with it, but I think you should take your own virginity. I just so you're not so scared and you know what it's going to feel like and disclose it or not. I'm not, listen, you do you, but this has been coming up at shows, like a few back to back.

Yeah. And people have so much anxiety surrounding it. And I do think the best thing is just like, fuck your friend. Someone's going to be nice to you afterwards. Like, if you feel like you're really late bloomer later in life, you might not get that whole love of your life romantic moment. So whatever. I lost murder, Jane, the biggest dick I've ever seen in my life.

It wasn't a romantic moment. I just got it done with, you know? But I'm saying, like, it's like people are listening. Like, yeah, easy for you to say. Like, I wish I could have that. but these guys are scared because they don't want me to get attached. So my friend, one of my friends, I'm thinking about who was a virgin, and then she lost to his guy, she didn't tell him.

She then started taking, like, online classes. So she took this, like, blowjob class. I love your friend. And now she feels, like, so empowered. Like, I feel like she thinks she's like, I'm great at giving head. Like, I'm so into this. Like, when I'm in the room, I'm the sexy person. It's just, like, so fun to see her move from, like.

She's big blowjob energy. Yes, she does. And it was just like, fuck, yeah. Like, you're nervous about this. And so you're going to take a class to improve your skills so that you feel more confident. Like that's so great. And like not that everyone wants to do that, but if you're somebody who just, it never happened to you, what can you do to make yourself feel more confident?

And how can you lean into that? And like there's a lot of ways to be sex positive without having sex. Love it. Yeah. I'm really, I keep thinking about all these things you're mentioning like, you know, you're worried that you're a virgin. You don't want to tell somebody. And I think that we can manufacture a connection with somebody.

Like when I worked in sales, one of the number one things in sales is that You want to make them want the product so much that they don't care what the prices. That's why you never hear a price until the end of a sales call. And you don't sell the product, you sell the story around the product. So no one's ever really buying a product. They're buying the story around it. So when you're selling wine, you don't really talk about the grapes and the viscosity. You talk about the winniards and how he sold his life savings to buy this vineyard.

People are like, I fucking need this and I don't care what the price is. So like if you are scared about being a virgin or having an STI or a family that's terrible, like you can be vulnerable in other ways and tell a story and sell the product in a way so much so that when they hear these things it's like not that big of a deal. When we went on the Drew Barrymore show, Matthew Hussie was saying this woman was kind of, which I felt her on this,

she was saying that she's worried about like sharing a home with somebody living with somebody. She likes her space. She doesn't share a bed. She likes her sleep, you know, which I relate to. I was like, couldn't love the question more. But Matthew Hussie was like, you don't have a partner. I mean, he said it in a nice way,

but he was like, let's cross that bridge when you get to it. Oh, she was worrying about that as a single. person. Yeah. And listen, he didn't say, he was so kind about it. I'm just using my tone. Same principle, though. But he was just like, let's worry about that when someone falls for you. And you have to worry about that. Like, that's not on the table yet. So find somebody, you fall for them, they fall for you and then deal with this issue. I do hear about that a lot. There's a feeling of, like, I'm in my later 30s. Like, my fridge is set up the way I like it. I have my wake up time that I like.

I have my schedule and my routine. And how I think about it is when you're dating in your 20s, it's like a startup. Like two messy people come together and they're trying to figure out, what's our HR policy? Who are we hiring? What's our office space? And, you know, it's messy and you're figuring out together. In your 30s, as you get older, it's more like a merger. It's like two complete companies that each have their own CEO and their own HR department and their fridge set up in their own way. And mergers are notoriously hard because two people have to figure out how do we make this happen. And so that really is part of the work that I do with clients in that age range where it's like, what's your goal? And they're like, I want to find a partner.

I want to have kids. And I'm like, great. Then you're going to have to make some compromises. And maybe that goal is more important than the way your fridge is set up. So really just keeping people focused on their goals. But I'm also seeing this a lot. I'm doing a lot of Gen Z research right now. And I'm hearing a lot of like, well, I want to find someone who fits into my life. And it worries me because I'm like, it really is about coming together and deciding what's best for both of you and not just saying like my way or the highway. Yeah. I mean, I think about that too because I always say like I don't really want to not do what I want, but I also like don't want kids and I don't really care about getting married. So hopefully I just find someone that it doesn't need to be traditional. For sure.

I love what you said too about it might not be so easy for someone to be so vulnerable on the first date, but like I don't know. I want to go back. You said that woman like ranks fruit or something. That's just like a quirk. you know, something that makes you a little weird. And if that's easier for you, share those things, too. Like, what I'm trying to actively do all the time is, like, provide more details when I'm talking to strangers on apps or just when we start texting. Like, how was your day? I'm going to tell you something for you to grasp onto. Like, this guy was texting with him and I asked how his weekend was and was hoping for some details and he didn't give me any, like, it was good, whatever. And I was like, what was the highlight and low light? Like, I'm going to, I need a detail. I'm going to give you details.

I'm trying to be so much better when people ask a generic question. How's it going? How's your day? Whatever it is, a stranger to say a thing they can grasp onto to talk about. If not we're at this stalemate. So those details just don't be boring, basic generic. Like there's something about you if it's not going to be the most vulnerable reveal that you do that's kind of weird or something, whatever it is, that those things make people think they know you more as well.

I completely agree with what you said. In terms of a definition of vulnerability, I like to think about it as a choice that you're making. So somebody asks you a question, how are you doing? You can say, okay, fine. Or you can be like, you know what? Like, actually things have been really rough this week and there's a situation going on at work. My head's kind of there. And then suddenly somebody can like pull on those strings and have a conversation with you.

So it's like so many moments on the app on a date with your friend, even with your therapist. There's a chance to say what's really going on or just the generic answer. and it's like, well, why do we choose the generic answer? Maybe we're afraid to share. We think somebody doesn't really care. So experiment with it. Date like a scientist. The next time you're on an app and somebody says, how was your weekend? You can be like, oh, my friend blew me off. Like, you know, it's frustrating when that happens, but, you know, I love her anyway. Or just get in, I think saying just like get into the details is smart. But really if you think about it as every time you're in a conversation, there's different paths you can take. Take the more vulnerable

path, share what's really going on. And you'll probably feel closer to someone. Yeah. I mean, I have a couple girls who I've seen this happen with where I think that they're like the best people ever but when they were dating they were like always on the abs always going on dates and like it wasn't really like working out and I could tell you they're harder to get to know in the beginning and I know that like they're just not giving that much of themselves on a date because they just want to like maybe play cool a little bit.

Yeah. And I think that that's the notion to lean into for so many people because you don't want to seem so extra or share too much and you're like where's the line about like sharing this trauma in my life and things like that but I think the workaround is so great about like share these details and something funny, because that's what I'm going to text you about also after the day. I'm either to be like a through line to the next date. It's like, this is this thing that we joked about that's so funny that we're going to like make fun of until the next time I see you.

Set up the callback, right? It's like you meet somebody at a dog park and you think they're really hot and you exchange numbers and you're hoping that they'll text you later or that you want to text them later. You need to talk about something in that conversation that you can then follow up with them about, oh, you told me to watch the show, I think you should leave. and then you say, oh, just watched it. It was great. But if you just talk about generic stuff, like, there's nothing to say. Where does it go? Yeah.

I've just rarely even texting messages with a lot of people recently just on Raya. Like, I'm just, like, going pretty hard on it. It's like, these conversations blow my mind sometimes because if I didn't do this, what would happen here? How are you? Good. How are you? Good.

How's your day? Pretty good. Work. Like, this just has to just nosedive into nothing if someone doesn't provide some details. Totally. But I do want to respond to what you said, Raina, about trauma dumping. I think that I want to talk about what vulnerability is and isn't. So like here are some ways that people get it wrong.

One is using your date as a therapy session. I hear this from women a lot where they're like, this guy has no friends. He doesn't seem to be close with his family. He doesn't have a therapist. And it was exhausting. I spent like three hours hearing about all his trauma. And it was like, that's not what I want to do in a date. Like I'm not being paid for this.

And so you definitely don't want to use a date to share everything that's going on. Like vulnerability is earned. It's a dance where you share and I share and we come closer together. You have to feel like that person is safe and that's why you're sharing with them and not feel like, oh, well, like, I'm just going to tell the woman behind me at Trader Joe's my life story. Like those people turn you off and it's TMI. There's also people, I see this a lot in San Francisco, that have learned that people

will feel close to you when you're vulnerable. So they sort of like have the dark art of vulnerability where they're sharing to sleep with you or to manipulate you. And that's also a way that I've seen vulnerability go bad. Right, it's not authentic. It's a manipulation. Exactly. But I mean, you said TMI, so I just think that like that's sometimes people's fear with like wanting to share something and being like, I don't want to overshare or be TMI. So it's like towing the line. You really don't need to share your deepest, darkest trauma with a stranger on a first date. But like something about you, that's not the most basic boring shit is a good place to start. Yeah. And I think you get to decide when to share. So let's say somebody's divorced and they're on a first date and they would mention it if they felt close to the person. But if not, they might. might say, I'm going to mention this on the second date or the third date. It's really about being emotionally intelligent and having boundaries. I feel like boundaries is a buzzword, but it really is so important. It's like my boundary is that I share this with someone when I feel safe, but I also

don't owe it to the person. And going back to the idea of feeling undaatable, like some things, like a lot of people wrote in about having a physical disability. So one guy was like, I had a stroke when I was in my teens and I have left side of my body paralysis. And so I had to figure out when to disclose this. So he discloses it after they've been chatting once they've set up the date before the date. And he says, hey, by the way, I am paralyzed on this side of my body. As you know from talking to me already, like, I own my own home. I have a great job. Like, I live a full life, but just letting you know. And he's like nine times out of 10, they're totally cool about it. But it's just like he wants to tell them so that they don't show up and are surprised. Other things, maybe you tell

them later. So it's really up to you. And you can do trial and error here and figure out when do I tell people this. Do I like telling people this? Do they even, you know, deserve it? Have they earned it? Things like that. Yeah. We also say this all the time. Like we're not born knowing how to do this. Yeah. And so some of it's practice. And that's even all the more reason to go on a date with somebody who maybe you don't look at them and think like that's the one that's just go and practice. I think you can practice with your friends. With your friends too. Totally. Yeah. A couple of the tips I was thinking about like one is just practicing it. Like have that go-to line. If you're freaked out by it, just have something that you'd say. So, for example, one of my clients had cancer while she was in

college. So we worked on the thing that she says, which is like, hey, I had a pretty unusual college experience. You know, unfortunately, I had cancer. I never would have chosen that. But it's the reason why I became a doctor. And it also has made me a much more empathetic person. And so it's really short. She's owning her story. And now she has that go-to, but we had to practice it. Because, like, sometimes you say too many details. Sometimes you talk too much about this part or that part. but really editing it and practicing it with a friend, now you're like, great. When that question comes up, I have my go-to.

Well, and I guess there's the worry that you go too hard, and then you sound like you're like defending something. Right. That's true. I had cancer, but it made me a da-da-da-da-da-da. Which is not that everybody comes across like that, but that's the benefit of practicing as well. And like knowing what works and reading someone's reaction, like you don't need to just go full force

because it almost sounds like it's some sort of disclaimer or something too. That's a good point. I do agree that it could sound almost like you're in a job, interview and you've prepped for the question like, why is there just gap in your resume? And you're like, I took time off, but I learned this. So yeah, I agree. It's like sometimes I think about things in the most formal terms, but of course you have to like make it your own and be more casual about it. Just have the information locked and loaded. It comes out naturally like in a conversation. I think the thing that worries me, like my fear on dates is like walking this line between being

really proud of my accomplishments and not ramming them down somebody's throat. And I think that- So I think that a lot of women say like, you know, are men intimidated by my success. And today, many more women are graduating from college and finding so much more success and making a lot more money than their partners. And so I think on a date, finding that line, at least for me, of like, I'm really proud of what we do. We own two companies. I'm on tour. We have worked at all these huge venues and sold them out. I'm so proud of it. But finding that line of like being humble, but still like being able to hype myself at the same time. And like, how much can I talk about it? When have I crossed the line, you know, kind of, and then I'm like, am I making this other person

uncomfortable or, you know? Yeah, that's a really interesting one. So for you, when you think about a partner, do you want another person that's a big personality and super successful and to be a power couple? Are you looking for someone who you'd be totally fine if they were less successful as long as they were excited for you? I've never sought out the power couple thing. Okay. Not once in my life. I don't care. I just don't. It would be great and I would love to be with somebody that I'm really proud of. We're the power couple. Yeah. Yes, you are. You are. You are. You did see out. It's just me. There's only room for one power couple in this room and it's me and Ashley. I love that. I'm like, how many times do I say we during a date? I mean, me and Ashley say it all the time.

Because your other significant other. It's so sweet. I'm listening for whee's with a person that I'm like, is this you and your wife's dog? Like, not on a date. You're on a date. Hopefully you're not. But I listen for we and then I say we all the fucking time. That's really funny. Sorry. Our lives are like really merged. But you know, I think it's a fear of all women that are like super successful, you know, but no, I don't particularly seek out that like power couple thing. I am very happy with somebody that just emotionally supports me. The sex is great. We make each other laugh. And I am proud and inspired by the way you live your life, whatever that means. I cannot be with somebody who's a fucking bum, who is not a hustler. I am the biggest hustler always have been.

I was 14 years old, like put me in coach. I love money. I love working. I love creating. If we're not like that, it is not going to work in the long run. I'm going to steamroll you. But I think so part of that is just picking better people to go on dates with, of course. Yeah. You know, I do hear this a lot, and you're right, two thirds of people graduating from college are women. So if women only want to date someone who's as educated as them or more educated, which the research shows that that tends to be the case, there's just literally a smaller pool.

And so even like people of our generation are experiencing this, but people of the generation younger than us, it's going to happen to them even more. And so what do you do? And so what I heard you say is you want to feel proud of the person and you want to feel like, they're celebrating your successes. It's not like you need this other power person. And so I think it's really, how can you filter out early for someone who's going to feel inspired by you versus intimidated by you? And so it's like, in an ideal world, someone's like, fuck yeah. Like, Raina is an entrepreneur. She's amazing. Like, I love that she's on tour. I'm so proud of her. Like,

look at my like boss babe girlfriend. And then there's going to be a guy who says that he's cool with you making more money than him. But he pulls a Steve on sex in the city and doesn't go to the party with you because he returns the suit. Do you know this episode? Carl, please. Yeah. Seen it seven times at least. Yeah. So it's like I, a big thing that I talk about in coaching is that we often are people pleasers and we want everyone to like us. And one person that doesn't like us, we dwell on. And there's this idea called the negativity bias. It's like our brains really do dwell on this

because if you had five ex-girlfriends and one of them really doesn't like you, then, you know, when you're on the Savannah, it's good to know which one doesn't like you. Like it's almost a safety thing. And so for you, what I would think about is how can you actually worry less about most people liking you and more how do I filter for the right thing? So talking on a first date, like my ambition is one of my favorite attributes about myself. Like I'm really proud of what I built and I feel like it's surreal to be living my dream. Like you don't need to tell them like, you know, how much money you made on this or this and that. But just talking about like this is a part of myself that I'm proud of and someone is going to self-select to be with you or not. There

are guys out there that are like, I'm looking for a more traditional stay-at-home mom. That is not Raina's future partner. And there's going to be guys who are like, I want to be House of Cards Power Couple with you, and they'll be turned on by it. And so we should be less afraid of being divisive and having some people turned on and some people turned off by being our real selves. Yeah. And I think I like people to be surprised and find out stuff like slowly. I don't want to lead with the successes. I like people to be like, what? Oh, shit. You know, like I like to downplay it. And then people start to put the pieces together because that turns me on on the opposite like I don't want a guy that's opens with his peacocking and his successes I want to find it out for myself like peel back

the layers a little bit it's so hot and sexy we're like oh you are humble like you didn't even tell me that what do you taught you did this for this person or you just sold out this theater like I do what I like to and so I have plenty of other shit to talk about before our success even comes up like we'll get to it you know but I don't want to talk about you know my favorite thing in the world is that I leave a party and somebody Googles us. Right. Like, I almost like that. I know what you mean. I really do enjoy being underestimated because I'm kind of like, yeah, wait till you find out. I just don't need to tell you. I don't need to tell you what I've done. You can look it up. You'll find out. So I think maybe this is, you're making a really good point, which is like if you come on too

strong to be like, hey, this is what I'm about. Even if that person would have liked you in another scenario, they're like, she's too much. She lacks humility. And so I think the idea of being humble and let them Google you later is right. But then it's also like, I don't want you to hide your success because eventually the person is either going to have a reaction to it where they're into it or not, and I'd rather that happens sooner. No, no, it's not hiding. And if we're on a date, you're going to, by the end of it, you will know the name of the podcast, you'll get a feel. I'm not hiding it. I just like, I don't lead with it because I don't want someone to lead with that either. Like, I don't want a guy showing up being like, just came from da-da-da-da, and I clothe this big deal.

Like, I want to know you outside of your career success in the initial. interaction. But that also goes back to what I was telling this client about facts versus stories. Like a fact is that you're two really successful podcast hosts. A story is one of the loves of my life is the person that I run a podcast with. Like I want to hear that story on a date versus the sold-out theaters. It's like those are facts about you that somebody can learn later. But like let me fall in love with you by telling me about like this amazing relationship you have, like how you are changing people's lives, like some of the stories you hear at live shows. Like that's people getting to see who you are, not what's on your Wikipedia page.

Totally. Like when people, if they even want those details of, I'm like, no, no, no, hear about this crazy thing that happened at the show. I'm more inclined to either talk about, like, we, this episode of not wanting kids and, like, moms emailed us and sit there and cry, or to talk about the strippers at our live show and my dad filming me. Yeah. And I am to say, like, we were at the Chicago theater with 4,000 people.

Yeah. My dad was doing that. And I would have the dot, dot, dot, here's how the parenting episode made me feel and inviting them in, an easy way for someone who has struggles with vulnerability is asking people for advice and really saying, like, hey, I'm struggling with this thing, what would you do? Here's a moral dilemma. First of all, it shows that you're a person that's open to other people's feedback. You also get to see how they think. Like, I really, really care about how somebody makes decisions and approaches life. And if you ask them for advice, you can even say to yourself,

is this a person I'd want to be given me advice for the rest of my life? Like, you can just think about that. And so it's like by letting them in, you get them to feel close to you and you learn so much more about them. Absolutely. Stop exchanging facts. Yeah. I mean, you think about interviews and you think about different types of interviews and there's some that say like, well, what are your best and more skills? But there's other interviews that say like, here's this scenario, solve it. And like that's the better type of interviewing, like as somebody who's interviewed people in the whole life and jobs. Like, I just want to know how you're going to be in this situation. I don't want you to rattle off facts about what you're good and bad at. Totally. So I think it's a, it's a thing. And also set up the callback.

try this advice. Yeah. Well, and I think we hear this a lot of if we just want to talk about men, for example, really want to feel needed, you know, are feeling way less needed in the current landscape. So even those little things of wanting, even pretending to want their help or advice is sexy and does make someone feel close to you. My friend Ellen, who I talked about before, who has this book on One Taste, she officiated my wedding. And her speech that she gave was about how I'm really into high exchange relationships. So it's like I ask a lot from you and I also want you to ask a lot from me. Like I want it to be very interdependent and for us to really rely on each other.

And I feel like I have several friends who have sort of broken down like in the beginning. They're like, why is Logan asking me for all of this advice? Why is Logan asking me to review this blog post? But then they're like, wait, when I ask her, she does it. And it feels really good. And it's like, I try to cultivate these high exchange relationships. And that's something that you can do too on a date to be like, let me tell you about this thing going on with my sister.

Like, how would you approach this? And do they seem interesting? Do they give good advice? It's just a way to have a conversation that's so much more interesting than repeating what you always say. And like, you know, when somebody has a listening phase, they sometimes like move their eyes to the side or you can tell they've like never had that thought before. Like, I want you to give that to somebody on a date where they're having a new thought and

putting things together, not just like reciting. Like, I moved to L.A. in 2012 for a job from. this company. Like, that's a different face. Like, give somebody a good listening face. I love the face. Well, it's how you make new friends, too, right? The night that I met Ashley, we stayed up all night long talking about our breakups. Like, it was so fun. And then I was like, this is the bitch that I talked to about, like, dating a relationship. She had this, like, crazy experience to this guy, and she's texting me about it. And I was like, oh, my God, she's so funny. And right away, you, like, break down the boundaries because you just, like, feel a little deeper with that person.

I mean, I could have just gotten service level. What do you do for where you're from? You know? I mean, this is how I immediately know if I'm going to be friends with somebody. immediate. Like, if they share something personal, I'm like, oh, that's my kind of person. And this is kind of, like, why I love being around comedians and, like, that's all we do. You know, like, anytime I met, like, a cool-ass female comedian, I'm like, how long have we known each other? You know, you meet and you're immediately sharing, quote-unquote, over-sharing, but, like, there's no small talk about it. So, yes, even, like, comedians aside, some group dinner, like, someone comes in hot and has, like, some personal thing of, like, why they're late. I'm like,

that's my kind of bitch. Like, just, it's, it's. important and it's what bonds us to people. Like obviously this is the whole point of the episode. Yeah, I feel like we're giving people like a life hack. It's like you're going on a lot of first dates. You're not getting the second date. Share more. Try that. See how it feels. It's going to feel scary at first. We're all afraid of being rejected or we all have these things we're ashamed of. But that's really how people get close. And like, for example, my husband and I went to lunch recently with one of his friends from grad school. And I'd never met his wife before. And I did like her at first. but then she told the story about their wedding and how her dad was super drunk and embarrassed her.

And I was like, now I love her because, like, I love that she's a person that would share that with me. Everyone's stories about their wedding are always, like, so romantic and all this stuff that happens. And she's like, here's how I was, like, pulling my dad off the stage. And then later, my husband was like, what do you think? And I was like, I love that she told that story. And it's like, that's what makes me feel like you're real. And so I feel like, I'm preaching to the choir with you two. But with your audience, it's like, I just want people to share what's really.

going on with them and kind of tying things back to the radish community that I live in. Like, I see these people literally every day. I have lunch and dinner with them, maybe, you know, five nights a week. And we went on this retreat together and we did this exercise called, If You Really, Really New Me. And it's like something I'd done like at Google many years ago. And so it's basically like, what is the thing that I don't normally share with you? And so everybody told there, if you really, really knew me. And I learned so much more about people. than I had, even though some of these are my friends for 10 years and like what somebody's struggling with, aging parents, all this stuff. And I felt so close to people afterwards. So it's like even people

that you see every day, there's so much beneath the surface that you're not sharing. Just share some of those things and start to realize how much less shame you have and how much closer to people you feel. All right. Well, you really tied it back in. So I think that's a great place to wrap it up. I just want to tell people, everything you post is amazing resources. So some of the things we had in the episode today that we wanted to get to that we're not getting to is like how to get rejected less. The eight questions, the post date eight to ask yourself after a date with somebody. But this is all on your Instagram. Like people can go find all of this. So it's there. We didn't get to it today, but you have a wealth of information. And I'm glad we discussed these topics today with you in

person. Yay. Thank you. Tell everybody where to find you so they could find the Instagram. Sure, yeah. I'm on Instagram and Twitter at Logan Yuri. And I work super hard in my newsletter. which is called Logan's Love Letter and comes out every Thursday, and they can sign up for that on my website, Logan Uri.com. And of course, the book, How to Not Die Alone. Amazing. It's really such a pleasure having you back.

We could have done every one of these topics for a year. I know, but we have to leave the studio. Okay. Well, if you guys know where to find us, Girls Gotta Eat.com, get tickets of shows announcing new tour dates soon. So get the tickets now for the shows that we have and we'll announce those new cities soon.

Girls Got E Podcast on Instagram. Also, Girls Got E Podcast on. on TikTok. I'm Ash Has, Raina is Raina. Greenberg. Girls underscore I gotta eat on Twitter. Haven't done that in a minute. And of course, vibes only, vibes only.com, vibes only at Instagram and subscribe on YouTube, share with a friend, leave a review, check out Logan. And we'll see you next week. Yay, that was so fun. Bye. Bye.