Girls Gotta Eat - Family Matters feat. Family Therapist Vienna Pharaon

Episode Date: December 16, 2019

"One big happy family" isn't always the reality so we brought in renowned marriage and family therapist Vienna Pharaon to lay some truths on us about the issues surrounding romantic relationships and loved ones. We discuss not getting along with your partner's family and vice versa, your sibling dating someone you hate, dating someone with a lot of past trauma, how to handle shitty family members over the holidays, and more. We also catch up on Rayna's LDR, Ashley's latest doorman incident, and play a new game about freaky family traditions. We hope you enjoy! Follow Vienna on Instagram @mindfulmft. Follow us @GirlsGottaEatPodcast, Ashley @AshHess, and Rayna @Rayna.Greenberg. Check our website for tour dates and merchandise. Thank you to our partners for this episode: Away: Go to awaytravel.com/gge. Place orders by noon on 12/19 for free ground shipping + delivery by 12/24 in the contiguous US. LiquidIV: Get 25% off at liquidiv.com with code GGE at checkout. Feals: Go to feals.com/gge for to become a member and get 50% off your first order. Native: Get 20% off your first purchase by going to nativedeodorant.com and enter code GGE20. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It will inform you as you move on and, you know, get back into the dating world or... Or start a podcast. Or start a podcast and have people on and learn about it. Invite therapists on your podcast. Yeah. Talk about... Guys, we're not paying for this therapy session. That's all I'm saying.

I don't know what your hourly rate is, but this has been free. Episode of Girls Got to eat. Welcome back. You want to do it? It's like high 40s, kind of dark out. You know, I look so ugly today and I wore sunglasses and even my doorman was like, who you got those on for? Because I'm old and ugly now.

That's why. Dewey and I went to the park today. We're really soaking up the weather. His life is perfect. Look at him just napping here. He's, I know. Look at it. He's so sweet. You'd never guess there's a dog at this apartment every single time we record. Every time. We have a great episode for you guys today. Before we get into that, the announcements you guys have been waiting for, I'm going to let Ashley kick it off because we are living her dream, my dream, but really her dream. My dream is coming true in February. We are going to Australia. Finally, guys, you knew we were coming. We've only mentioned it for the last month every week.

Four months. Finally got those dates for you. We have shows in Sydney and Melbourne. She's doing it. No. Okay. I don't know how to say it. You guys will tell us when we get there.

Yeah. People correct me and say Melbourne. I try to mumble and I say like Melbourne. Yeah, I like to hit it like soft like quasson. Like I just do a light accent. But here's the thing. It's not, is it the thing of like you say Melbourne? that's your Australian accent.

Like I wouldn't say Abitha. I would never say Abitha. I have no idea. Right. So we'll finally when we get there, guys. We will see you in Sydney on Saturday, February 22nd. Yep. And.

You got it. Melbourne. Melbourne. I'm trying to like say it so quietly. I do like Melbourne. Melbourne on 25th of February. That theater is so beautiful. The theater is so beautiful.

Lizzo is going to be there next month. Okay. I can't believe her. level guys. Oh, yeah. So the Sydney Comedy Store. Yes. And the forum theater in Melbourne. Okay. Forum theater. Guys, one really quick thing. You have sent us some messages about Brisbane. Brisbane. I don't know. That one either. It was Brisbane. Like Biscane? Brisbane. There's a Drake song and he's, I thought he said condo and Brisbane, but it's Biscane. Oh, like he Biscay. Conned on a Biscay. Yeah. Anyway, maybe Drake

is a condo and Brisbane too. I don't know. Okay. We don't know if we're coming there or not. We're going to try our best. We are going there to vacation. So we will try our best. We just couldn't get it together with all the other tour dates. They were booking on this tour. We will try. No guarantees. Please, like don't hold us accountable for this. I promise that we're trying. Yeah, we're working on it. And then I'm going to go to Bali to take a vacation after our vacation. And Ashley's going to go to Mexico. Well, I have to go to a birthday party. I have to go to a birthday party in Mexico. In Cabo. I'm going to take a vacation from you and go to Bali, probably alone. It's going to be a lot of me and you together. I'm amped. Yeah, it's a lot of time together. Because before that, we are going to

LA and San Diego, but so still tickets available for LA. Yep. And Houston and Dallas still tickets available. DC and Boston sold out. And then, okay, I'm going to announce our other city. And then Rain is going to announce the other ones. Okay. We are also coming to Philly on April 18th. So excited. Film more theater. Film more theater is like our dream theater. It might be my favorite place we're going to perform. It's so incredible. It's actually right next to punchline where we performed last year, but like the way it set up is just what we live for. Yes, moving on up the street. Moving around the corner.

It's just like a fun concert hall that they have like chandeliers and it just looks like the balconies, mezzanines, you guys can sit on and it's great. It looks beautiful. So we can't wait to be there. One year from our last shows. Yes, exactly the same weekend or it's a weekend this year. It wasn't on, so we're doing what Saturday night. We're doing weekends now, guys.

We're doing weekends now. Saturday night in Philly. Going to see if Gritty's available. He'll probably big league us like he did last year. Some girl, Dan. us and said that she has a connect and I said email us. They did last year too. Oh. People are like, I have a connect to Gritty and then it's like to book Gritty, $5,000. Oh, well, I told her to email us. I was going to surprise you. Someone, she, she DM me too.

Well, if you're like related to Gritty or something. If you know Gritty, I heard he's hot underneath there. Did I say this before? Some girl has met the guy that is in there. There's not like a bunch of people that play in. It probably is. I don't know. Maybe she was just fucking with me. Oh my God. You don't have like a furry fetish. It make him like fuck me with the costume on. Anyway, guys gritty may or may not be there um we'll see and then oh my god i'm so excited we're doing an improv tour of florida so we're starting in orlando tampa and miami so we'll be there um late april uh all of the improvs we love a comedy club we did not get to hit orlando last time we're going to hit orlando we're going to go to disney world also if you have any connects there that want to like you

know give us a beautiful stay in disney world we'll take it yes get my hair out at the bibbidi bobbyty boutique if you know mickey like chris de saffano's daughter yeah spoiler we have christie stepano on next week. Anyway, he took his daughter at the Bibbibbapity Boutique. Instead of hanging out with me. We made plans and he took his daughter to the Disney World. Yeah. So those are the shows. Wait, hold on. I don't want to just talk about Orlando. Tampa, I miss you every day. I can't wait to back in Tampa. I can't wait to go twerk in the E-Bor district like I did last year. And of course, Miami is our second home. So I just love it. It's like, we're like, what is our tour? It doesn't make sense. Hey, guys, we're doing Australia, Philly and Florida.

Like, there's no logistical sense. We just try to go to eat. And Texas in between. And in between, we're just going to go to Texas. You know what I mean? Like, it's going to be great. It just doesn't even. How do I live? Also, guys, if you have any koala connections, just hit me up.

Like, you know a good place where I can hold them. I know a lot of their habitats were just destroyed by the brush fires. And I donated to that and stuff. So I just want to be clear, like, we are aware of some of the bad stuff that's happened in Australia. So I'll go, I'll go volunteer at a koala sanctuary, I'll nurse and back to health. I don't care. If you guys know any place to go, see koalas. If you know someone that has a koala in their home, I don't know if people.

around here domesticating them. Are there ethical places that are like more ethical? Like you go to like Thailand if you were like don't go to like the elephant sancturess. I don't think it's like that. I don't think it's like that with,

I know it's like that with tigers and elephants but I think koal is like a little bit different but I don't, I know that you could only see them in like one or two of the territories. I think New South Wales is one of them. So anyway, you guys have any recommendations there but I know I think some of them have to go to sanctuaries

after the brush fires. So I'll go visit. I'll donate. I'll hold them. I'll give them a bottle. I don't care. I'll do whatever. Give them a ball of like you're nursing that.

I'll nurse them back to help. I made a donation this week as well. What? To Wikipedia. You have to support the art. I just, I texted Ashley. I was like,

I just did the weirdest thing. She's like, I do that too. I just feel like I owe them for the amount of arguments they've helped me win. I love that you said that. That was so funny when you said that to me.

Okay. Here's the thing. They really do ask, though. Like, when they're asking for donations around this time of year and you go to Wikipedia, they're like, hey, what's up? You've been using this for free

to win our money. arguments. We need your money. I'm like, click $5. There you go. I just respect it. I listened to how I built this about Wikipedia, which is a great podcast with Guy Raz. And yet, they don't like make a profit. They don't make any money. So yeah, I've been using it for free for years. I gave him 10 bucks.

10. For all the knowledge. Oh, girl. I'm just, I'm wrong a lot. So like, the fact that I get to like side text Wikipedia to figure it out helps me. Okay. So one thing, one last thing about the shows. I've got to read you this email that we got. Since this is, this is the 16th.

We will have just done our holiday show in New York, our first one, and we are headed to Chicago today. If you're listening on the 16th, we have Chicago shows in the 17th, 18th, and then our last New York holiday show in the 19th. But I wanted to read this really funny email, Raina. The subject line is another listener who can't read. Did you see this? Yes, it's time to read it.

She said, she goes, I don't think any of your listeners know how to read, including myself. Between the wrong address on their online orders, choosing the wrong colors, or thinking the Chicago show was tonight, Tuesday the 10th. So this came through on Tuesday the 10th at 9.48 p.m. last week. She goes, I literally bought a ticket to see you guys with just me and myself and I, aw, and drove to Tali Hall early to make sure I would get a good seat, considering I wasn't going with a group of friends.

Got to the hall at 6 p.m. Strong. Show starts a date. Two hours ahead. Yep. And decided to go sit at the bar at the restaurant downstairs. Great restaurant, by the way. And order myself a drink and a cheeseburger, great cheeseburg. Midbite, I mind you, this lady next to me was like, so have you seen a drag show before? And I literally was like, what are you talking about? Long story short, I used to wonder how in the world people could get dates wrong. Now I understand. Shout out to Rob Boyd, Tahlia Hall's beverage director,

beverage director for giving me two drink passes for when I return next week. Oh, I was going to say we should buy her a drink next week for coming out of Pilsen by herself alone. I love a woman that will sit at the bar and have a cheeseburger, take herself on it. I think the sexiest thing in the world. I know. So Sarah, we will see you next week. I just thought that was so funny that, yeah, you're always like, oh my God, these idiots, and then it happens to you.

I told you this, Raina, that we were like coming down on all these people for their fucking up their online orders and then I did like the most embarrassing thing ever. I like said I didn't get this thing and they were like, it's in your mailbox and it was in my mailbox because I never checked my mailbox. I didn't think it was small until fit in the mailbox. It was there. We complained about stuff, but really at the end of the day, like our listeners are like smarter than I am, first of all.

But like, yeah, everybody makes mistakes. But anyway, so we'll see you tomorrow, Sarah. Looking forward to a girl. Drinks are on Rob from Tahlia Hall. I was going to offer, but now I don't have to. We love them so much. I can't wait. Actually, last year we went to Talia Hall, we walked in, what, at 4 o'clock

and people were already pre-gaming in Tanya Hall. Because there's a restaurant at a crazy bar downstairs below the restaurant. Yeah, they'll like speak easy. You know what's so funny that that woman was like, have you ever been to a drag show before? And that girl might have been like, wait, are they drag queens? Like, she didn't know, like this whole time we've been in drag. And that's why we don't release the live shows.

That woman, that woman do something. She did it. Like, she's like, oh, my God. Just men and drag. This is sort of a spoiler. Okay. We can't wait to be there. I love Chicago.

So my brother's coming to the shows and his wife. I can't wait. I can't wait for you girls to still DM me and ask if he's single. I can't wait. Speaking of being single, I am single again. You were single. You didn't have a boyfriend. Ashley's like, that's not true.

You didn't have a boyfriend. I'm your boyfriend. I did want to give a little update about my dating life. Okay. Just because, like, I felt like I learned a valuable lesson. Okay. So I'm not seeing that guy in Charleston anymore. And I don't know.

It's just... So if you guys haven't been following along, you met this guy when we toured there and have been like a little back and forth and then you went to visit him. Because, you know, some people, this could be their first episode. If it is, welcome. We're so glad to have you here. We're so glad to have you. Don't DM us, but we're so glad to have you.

The rules are no DMs. No, just kidding. So yeah, I mean, look, it probably wasn't going to be like a long-term match. She doesn't live here. And in my mind, like, I'm like, oh, la-di-da, I don't care. Like, I'll go travel and visit somebody all the time. But, like, I think regular people don't aren't dying to have a long-distance relationship. Right. Anyway, so I'm, it just kind of, like, fizzled. And, like, I just, like, wasn't hearing from Ms. Mijijij. And I was just, like, I just, like, spent, like, every day for, like, a few days just, like, in this fog. And I was upset. And I was just, like, I feel like the communication's different. I was, like, beating myself up.

so much. And like, I had a couple drinks and decided to be passive, aggressive and say something about it. But like, I said, like, I think that you ghosted out of this in a way that I don't really like and I'm kind of bummed about it. And, like, his response, luckily, was great. And, and, like, he sort of defended himself. And then he called me and we were on the phone for a while. But I just was thinking about, like, you know, we girls say all the time, the guys go to them and do I say anything about it. And, like, I think that you do. And I think that, like, if you give somebody your time and your energy and in my case, like, my money, you know, I got on a planet and visited this person, I think that, like, if you are emotional,

vulnerable to a person, not after one or two dates, but like after a month and a half of seeing somebody, like, I think that you deserve to say like, hey, this happened and we interacted with each other and you're like ghosting out of this. And it's a bummer. And like, what's going on here? And I don't think there's anything weak or pathetic or wrong with saying that. I 100% agree. And I'm really lucky in the sense that like he's a great person. I don't have anything bad to say about him. And we talked for an hour. I mean, he was really nice. He picked up the phone and he called. And I think that I tried to make it not super accusatory. and I think that when you approach people in a non-acusory way,

you're always going to get a better result. But he was like, I like you so much. I think you're amazing. Like, I haven't felt this way about somebody in a really long time. But, like, let's be realistic about this. You live there. I live here. I hate New York.

I don't ever want to live there. And he was like, even this city is too big for me. I want to, like, sell all my shit and live on a boat somewhere. Yeah. You guys aren't aligned. No. And I think that, like, just he was honest with me about it. And I can't argue with that.

Like, we don't want the same things in life. And I think that, like, it was nice to have that conversation. and he was really kind and complimentary, but also, like, I realized that I was, like, beating myself up all week and I was, like, sick about this and in a fog and so upset. And, like, when we just had the conversation, it, like, waved this wand where I was like, oh, I'm fine. Yeah. This is just, like, this wasn't like my soulmate. No. And you just, the thing that you're upset about is that somebody's disrespecting you as a person and not treating you like a human. Yeah. And, like, it's your ego that hurts. It's not like you're, I mean, yes, for some people, but for me,

this is less than a two-month-long relationship. So, like, I'm not madly in love with this guy. He's wonderful. It's great. But yeah, I just like want to talk about that because I think that you always deserve to ask somebody like, hey, what's going on? I think 100% you did. I think we've said this before probably in other episodes, but I think you go on one, two dates with somebody. They don't maybe necessarily owe you an explanation. I think you can always ask, but I think at the end of the day, you never know. They may have got back with their ex. They might have something gone wrong in their family. Like, you just never know. But like when you have sex with somebody and you spend nights with them, especially for you.

again, like you travel down there. Like you definitely owe somebody something. Yeah. Like I was seeing that guy long distance and I decided I don't really want to be with him anymore. And I like left and to get myself out of the situation. And I opened it up for him to give me a call if he wanted to discuss it like once, you know, later. I think I totally owed him that. It would have been really awkward to be like I just stopped liking you.

But like I would have afforded him that. We spent a weekends together whole week. You know, like there's just a line where I think you spend enough time with somebody and they do owe you an explanation. Yeah, and you've shared intimacy with somebody and you've shared personal private things about your life with them. And yeah, I mean, we've had a lot of sex with each other. And that's important also. But like, yeah, really intimate private moments we've shared together. We're on the phone every single day. And he was pursuing me really heavily. And so, yeah, I deserve an explanation. And now, like, since that conversation, like, I'm not mad. I don't feel bad.

Like, it probably wasn't my long term soulmate. But like, we can be cool. Like, we're not, we've talked. We've talked since then. We text. I don't think that, like, I want to leave the door open for some manipulative situation where he gets to talk to me every day. Yeah. But yeah, I just wanted to say that. I think it's important to like ask those questions. You might not get what you want from a person, but you deserve to get an answer. Yeah. So yeah, I just want to talk about that and give you guys an update. So that's the update. And you wanted to tell me a story and then we'll get into the episode. Okay. I have not told you this. So I wanted to save her for the podcast. It's just something like little and stupid, but it has to do with Dormand Dick. I love your Dorman,

by the way. Okay. I love my Dorman too. Um, So, okay, we've said it before. Again, if you're new here, there's like five doormen. They're all, like, attractive and put together. Some of them have girlfriends. Like, they've mentioned their girlfriends or one guy mentioned his wife or, you know, whatever. But there's one that I feel like I am just, like, semi-flirty with. I don't have a crush on him.

We just, like, you know, he's an attractive guy. I flirt with all them. You flirt with all of them. It's just friendly flirty. I'm not, like, pining for him. But there is one that I feel like a single. thought he was single and whatever. He's the hottest one. I think he's the hottest one. So, and like he's there late at night sometimes. I come in a little boozed up and we like chat,

whatever. And I was out at this little event thing last weekend with two people that I've met in the building. They're a couple. And I met them on the roof one time and we've stayed in touch and the girl's this jewelry designer. She's great. And her husband or husband? Yeah. And I'm talking to them and we're talking about the doorman because we're like talking shit about the building and stuff. And I was like, oh my God, guys, who's your favorite? You know, like, who's your favorite doorman? And we start talking about this stuff. And I said, well, this is my favorite one.

And they're like, well, yeah, I mean, I can see that, you know. And then the guy, I was like, I feel like I'm a little, like, flirty with him sometimes. And the guy that lives in the building goes, yeah, he's married. And I said, what? I did not get married vibes from that guy. And I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe he hasn't, hasn't, like, told me or something. Like we have conversations. Like you come in late at four in the morning after having a night out.

You talk to your door every like 10 minutes. He should be talking about his wife. He doesn't wear a ring. I'm not saying that he's like hiding it. But maybe he wears a ring. I never noticed. Whatever. Bottom line,

I did not know he was married. And I like was joking. You know me. I love to like cut up and make people laugh. So I start saying like I am so pissed about this. He did not tell me he was married. And I'm like jokingly acting like pissed off. And I was like, I can't believe this.

He's never mentioned her to me. Like you guys are dating? And all the times we went out together in the lobby. And I'm like making all these jokes and all this stuff. And that was that. I left the little event. I was at the next day when I talked to the doorman, he brought his wife up not once, not twice.

Three times he brought his wife up in conversation. It went like a 30 second conversation you guys had. He just kept bringing her up. He said, my wife and I watched one of your Santa videos. My wife this, my wife's out. I was like, what the fuck? And I was like, I know. I know that couple put me on blast.

What did they come in? Absolutely. They're like, Ashley's into you. And he's like, I got to let her know that I have a wife, that her or not, the wife knows about you now. He told the wife about you. So I was like, I cannot believe my new friends in this building would do me so dirty. And then we got this funny email, funny email.

I think I found it funny. It was like, meet the team. Basically, I feel like here's all your dormant, all your supers. So you can tip them for the holidays, right? Like it was a pamphlet of like pictures. and all the people, which is nice, because I am going to tip all them and I want to make sure I get everybody covered, right? But I think that's why they sent it right before the holidays, right? It was very cute. It was like, get to know your team. It's like, we've all lived here for

months. But okay. So the girl that lives here, she sent it to me and she was like, I bet you love this. So you're masturbating. The pictures of all the dormant. And then I was like, since you, I said, since you brought it up, did you and your husband say something? And she said, no, oh my God, we would never. So I know they cock blocked you. Okay. I just can't imagine they would say something that's so weird. Like they're adults. Like I can't. And plus I'm kidding. Guys, this is all a joke. I'm not trying to date the doorman. Huh? How could it come up in conversation? I can't imagine how she'd like organically bring it up. I do not think her and her husband came home after that event and was like, oh my God, dude, Ashley is really into you. You've got to tell her you're married. But I just find it suspicious that I've talked to him on what almost every day since September 1st. He never mentioned his wife. I say something about it. He brings her up three times in one. What are the fucking eyes that he got in? And then, guys, what happened the other night was Rayna and I were leaving this apartment and he came in and I like was like, oh, hey, and kind of like hit him like playfully like on his

shoulder. I was like, hey, good to see you. And then Raina goes out of my body for no reason at all. Like nothing. I just go, oh. What the fuck? It's like, it's like I know that there's some kind of like back. Like it's like we've been talking about him.

Yes. Like if he really, if this whole thing is. true that he thinks I have a crush on him, which again, I don't. You guys, it's all a joke that I went and like, I'm complicit the whole thing. Playfully swatted him. And you go, oh, yeah. It's like I've been waiting for this to happen. Like, I'm complicit in it. Almost died. He was like, oh, my wife's on her way. Like, I mean, he probably was like, I got to get my wife in here to show Ashley. So she stops hitting on me. I didn't know why that was so funny, by the way, for like the whole week. Ash's like, I got to tell you this. I'm going to tell you

on the podcast. Oh, that is funny. All we do is embarrass ourselves in front of those dorm men. Yeah. I flirt with all of them. I just can't. Do you think that couple told them, told him? No, because I can't imagine how that would, like, organically come up without them being like, Ashley is such a slut. Oh, my God.

She's so obsessed with you. Weird coincidence, though. What a odd. Because when he brought up his wife, he really didn't need to. It's like he found a way in the combo to bring her up. Yeah, the way other men find a way not to bring it up. Yeah, so he's one of the good ones. And the hottest one.

All right. Well, that's good to know. I've got to find out if one of them is gay and if the other one has a wife. Yeah. All hot. Yeah. Two, I think one is, now I know two of them have a wife. One of them as a girlfriend.

And then the one is like 12. You've been doing some late night sleuthing. Who's 12? The new one. He just looks so young. So that's right up your alley. That's the one you like the most. And then the other one we just were unsure about.

You're just going to slatter I pass that one. Okay. Because of what just happened. Guys, here's the thing. Here's what happened. Young men have been slide into my DMs. And when I say young, I mean, high school. So we, Hannah burner posted a clip of me on her podcast.

in which I said I like fucked football players or whatever in college. And someone slid in my DMs and was like, hey, I heard you like football players. What's up? I looked him up. He's a high school football player. He's a senior in high school. You made fun of me so much this summer when I met that guy at the bar at the Starboard

who was friends with my brother. He was brothers of one of my brothers' friends. He had just graduated high school like last week. And he still DMs me about like coming to shows and stuff. And he's like hot and tall. He looks like an entity. He was so hot. You made fun of me.

But now we're both dating high schoolers. I got to tell you what else this guy said. This DM I got just random DM slide yesterday to 10 p.m. You're so gorgeous. If you cheated on me, I'd be the one apologizing. He graduates from college in 2021. He's a child. Is he even 21 years old yet?

No. If he's if he, I would, so he's a. Are you going to do it? No, but who are these guys? He looks kind of hot. I know. That like, that like 19 year old candidate. 20 kid.

DM to be all coming to our show on Pittsburgh and he was like, maybe I'll show up. And I was like, maybe I'll let you. It was so creepy. And I was like, Raina, who was that hot guy? And you're like, he's a child. Literally. It's like 19. Which is still of age.

Guys, don't get us arrested. 2021 college. So we'll be just entering the nursing. So not this, not like this next spring of college grads will be 20. So he graduates from college two years from now basically. He's 19. So he could be 20. I think I graduated from college.

I was 22. All right. Well, they can get. Not in the 80s. Kids want to fuck too, you know. Oh my God. When did you say that? The second episode. It was so, so long ago. Deep cut. I just yelled it at you. Such a deep cut. Kids, kids want to fuck too. All right. We should get it. All right. Let's get in the episode. Speaking of kids, we're talking about family today. Oh, yeah. Great transition. Really. But we are doing it. We're really doing it. I'm really excited about this episode today. We've searched far and wide for somebody to cover this topic with justice to it. So we're talking about families. today in the house studio with us and Dewey. We have a licensed marriage and family therapist. She has her own private practice in New York City. She does tons of speaking events,

retreats, workshops. She has a huge Instagram account called MindfulMFT, which focuses on transformation through self and relationship awareness. Welcome to the house studio of Vienna Farron. Thank you for having me. Thanks for being here. Vienna Farron. It's a name, right? It could go either way. That could be a poor name. It could be. Like a classy one. Thank you. I appreciate that detail.

Porn star slash therapist. Yeah, we're off to a good start. Is that your married name or is that your name? Yeah, that's my name. My original name. I did keep my last name. Born and raised. Yes, born and raised.

That was a thing. That was a thing. That was a conversation. That was a hard one to keep the name. Well, I don't, someone to me the other day, a woman, my mom's friend. My mom, like, she's just really like liberal and, feminist and she's been out of the game a while.

You know, she was just like, are women still taking men's names? I wanted to do it. But I, like, today I wouldn't do it because you and I have this like career and like we've built like a name for ourselves and you too like as a therapist. Like I just think like, when I was getting married, I was like one family, one name, taking the name. I ordered all this shit with his name on it.

The merch. You ordered the merch. I changed my open table name to his name. But some people like, so when she said that to me, we were out of wedding when she said And I go, cookie, yeah. Her name's Cookie. I was like, yeah, like my last girlfriend when they got married changed it that day on Facebook.

You know what I mean? Like, it's still a thing. It was, I mean, it's been my name for 33 years at the time. We got married in April. And yeah, it was like very confronting. I was like, this has been my name though. Like, this is my identity. This has been my name.

I love my name. I feel connected to it. I have a great relationship with my dad who whole, like to me, that was something that I wanted. to hold and it was a it was definitely an interesting conversation that was confronting for both of us. But we landed on it and we have we have fully accepted. And you stayed together. We stayed together. I don't know, but here it is. I'm talking about family. Yeah, if you hate your dad, it's easier to change it. Maybe. I thought up in a friend of mine. She was like, get this. Yeah, I don't want this anymore.

Get my dad's name out of here. It's fair. Yeah. But tell us a little more about yourself, like what your practice focuses on. Are you from New York? Obviously, you're married, you're young, you're beautiful. Tell us anything else about you. Yeah. So as you said, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, so I work with individuals and couples, all within the context of relationships, family systems. Sometimes there's one person in the room. Sometimes there's six people in the room. Very interesting and beautiful work. I'm from New Jersey originally. I grew up there. I'm an only child. My parents went through a separation when I was in first grade. Their divorce took nine years. At the time, it was the record for New Jersey. So like, well, if you're going to be the best. Yeah, you just like, you go strong, you go hard. What do you mean?

Although I believe now that, that record, actually I know that record is broken. I don't know, maybe. Was it because of, like, bunny? No, I don't even, I think it's just like constant fighting, right? There's like always one more thing. There's always one more negotiation. That's funny that it was longer than you had been alive. Yeah, like you were six or whatever and they were.

Yeah. Actually, like, that's funny. Let's talk about it more. It's not funny, but I think. Well, you know, at this point, it's, it's, it's, it's totally fine to talk about it and we can poke fun at it a little bit. But I think during that time was when I started to observe relationships a lot and obviously something that was strung out for so long, you know, you're in the mess of it, right? You're in the muck of it and you see the

battle going off. And, you know, from that point, I think, you know, when you go through something like that and you observe it and you witness how it's impacting both of them, for me, I wanted to make sure that I never had to go through something like that. You know, so like from an un-evolved space, it was like, I need to go into understanding relationships because I never want to go through that for my own life. And then from a more evolved space, which I've gotten to now, I see the value in learning about what makes healthy relationships, healthy, what makes, you know, dysfunctional and healthy relationships do the things that they do and that we as a society don't generally get

great education around how to have healthy relationships outside of our family systems. You know, like watching our families is our first education. It's our first template for all things. And so, yeah, so it developed into my work as a couples therapist. I work a lot with couples and and then individuals within, you know, like dating, going through divorces, that type of thing. Obviously, dating in New York City is a really thrilling, fun, exciting event. that we do. So yeah. So that's a little bit about me. What else? Okay, so we want to talk to you today about like if basically just like how families affect your romantic relationship. So if you're the partner and you're like, they don't like me. I don't know how to deal with it. And like I just said,

I don't like them. And then how to be a partner in that situation between like you and your romantic partner and then also when you're a lot to speak up and all those things. But I thought that a good place to start would be like either a couple or an individual walks into your office and says, like, I just, I really struggle with this family dynamic between my partner's family and myself. And whether it's like, I just don't feel like anybody is nice to me or an example that you brought up, which is like, I don't think anybody to ask me any questions. They don't show any interest in me. And like, I have seen personal family dynamics where like the mother makes jabs at the daughter-in-law a lot. And things are like, what do you say to, like, what's day one

of therapy for you? Yeah, I mean, day one, I think is understanding if the partner sees it the same way as you do. So sometimes you'll have both people say, yes, I can report that these facts are correct. Like we're the same team. Yeah, we're on the same team. I see what you're talking about. And then other times you may have the partner whose loyalty can go more towards the family system. And I think when that partner is not able to see what it is that you're saying, that part's, that's really hard. Right. So I think we probably have to talk about both. Yeah. Right? Because I think when you do have a partner who's like, you're right. Like, I see everything that you're saying and I'm sorry that you're having to deal with this and going through it. Obviously, those conversations can be a little bit

easier than the ones when you're having to, like, fight for it and like try, you're really desperately trying to get your partner to just see your perspective. Absolutely. You know, like have your back. They're not even comparable. Like, I feel like I could put up with a lot if my partner was recognizing it and validating me as opposed to like him not knowing his mom's a psycho. Sure. Yeah. How do you? I don't. No. I don't. You know where to start with that. That's right. And I think, you know, a lot of couples do come in and they can see it, right?

They can see it. And they can talk about it. And that part is, yeah, it is really helpful. I think, you know, what I find with a lot of individuals and couples is that as we're growing up and getting older and we're starting to challenge certain things in our lives where we're like, oh, like this belief system, like I don't, I don't jive with it anymore. You know, we start checking ourselves as we as we age and dive into some of our, you know, cell. awareness work. And so as we are sort of distancing from beliefs that maybe our family system still holds on to, you know, you can see that separation and we start working towards just accepting that a family system may believe certain things that you no longer believe or they might never change.

You know, we were talking about this earlier where it's like at some point, where do I have to let go of trying to get somebody to see my perspective or care about me in the way that I really want you to care about me. Ask me questions because that feels really reasonable and appropriate, where you do accept the capacity to which like a family member may or may not go. But if you have your partner who's on board with you, right, I think that the acceptance part of that is much easier. You're so right. I never thought about it like that. Like I could probably, you're right, I can probably accept not really loving my partner's family as long as my partner was like, yeah, they're annoying. And this sucks and I'm on your side. Yeah.

two separate things. So I guess let's talk about the harder one where like you, your partner is not seeing what you're seeing. So like I'll give you an example of a couple that I know and like I think the mother makes jabs at the daughter-in-law a lot and her husband sees it but

thinks that she provokes it a little bit. And so I think he sort of acknowledges the behavior but is still like well you sort of set yourself up for this and I don't agree with that at all whatsoever. I think that she's wonderful and I've watched it happen and I don't agree with that. So like if you're the partner like How do you fight back against that? If your other partner is just like, yeah, well, you brought this on yourself or deal with it.

Yeah. I mean, I would want to know what feels concerning about going up against mom or setting that boundary with mom. Or like, why does that feel threatening to the husband? I think it's the husband in this case where it's like, like, what is confronting about that? What's the threat about doing that? If you see what it is your partner is saying, but you just. don't want to confront mom. Like, why, right?

Like, what about that dynamic? What about that family system is blocking that? Like, are you a son who has always wanted to please mom? Are you a son who knows that if you go up against mom, she becomes critical or she might cut you then? Or, like, you know, there's a reason why a person doesn't go into that space. And especially when you're saying, like, no, like, if you're an objective viewer of it and you're like, she's great and she's fine and she's not really doing anything provoking that

is reasonable to get that type of response. Then you do want to look at why that other person feels concerned or threatened or has some type of stress response to actually using his voice to say something. Have you seen situations where like the son or who I'm just talking to like sons and whatever and the son will go back to the mom and say like the wrong verbiage? Like, well, you're pissing her off all the time and you need to be nicer to her. versus like, hey, I'm a team with her and I need you to, I see this, I need you to be nicer. Yeah, that first one is I'm throwing my partner under the bus because I don't want to take

accountability and ownership in the space. I don't want to own how it is that I'm feeling, but I'm going to relay the information so that she remains the bad guy and I don't have to be the one who deals with whatever's coming back at me. Right. So it's like, it's really important for, in partnership, for both people to be able to own what it is they're experiencing and name it and, you know, have that conversation if, you know, if they're willing to, like, I don't know where the relationship goes if there's no loyalty in it. That's really hard over and over and over again, right? If your partner can't see what your experience is or finds a way to invalidate it or finds a way to dismiss it, right? That's going to, that is going to tear at

the relationship over and over and over again at a certain point. It may tear too much. Right. I mean, it's just tricky because old people don't change. Like, they can, but I see a lot of friends that have these problematic parents and they're just like stuck in their ways. Like I don't know what what they I mean how often do you see like a mom be like you're right. I should be nicer. I don't know. Yeah. Like have you seen? I don't know. Yeah. I mean so I generally say people, people are not going to change until they're going to change. So I'm not going to sit here and predict that like you'll never change for the rest of your life. I use my dad as an example because he was So he was blessed with a therapist as a daughter.

So he was going to go up against this for a while. But he used to be like a really reactive, manipulative kind of gas lighter who, like I was the only person who could really track what he was doing. And so I would really battle with him because he couldn't get it over me. And so becoming a therapist, like he really clung to that way of being and living. for a really long time. And I think, you know, my dad is now, he's turning 82. So he's definitely older.

And in the last, I'd say, probably six or so years, I just kept bringing things forward and naming them with him. You're being invulnerable right now. You're being defensive. I'd really like to know how you feel. And I would just keep going with him. And he has changed in drastic ways. and he is so wonderful, so honest, so vulnerable, like, we'll bring his, I mean, still a struggle with certain things, but, like, I have seen him make shifts. So that may be, you know, one and a few because I do agree that a lot of times people can get so stuck in their ways and they are unwilling to do the work to really dislodge themselves from their patterns and their programming. So I would agree that you generally go into this with the acceptance that I'm not banking on you

changing, right? And so if I'm not banking on you changing, the only thing that I can control is me, right? It's how I respond to it. It's what I do with it. It's how I engage with it. It's the boundaries that I set with it. And that's the only thing that I can, you know, attach to. Okay. So just we can kind of wrap up this segment and kind of move on to the other part, the more preferable relationship. But like, you're a woman, your partner, you are knocking along with his family. You guys keep budding heads, whatever it is, his mom, his sister, whoever. And he does not see it. I mean, what is the, I know there's no answer. I know every situation is different. Like, we can't just put everything into a box, but is it just you go

straight to the therapist office? Or, I mean, is there language you can use? I mean, how do you see a breakthrough happen? Sometimes the third person is helpful. There's a lot of people who will come in and, you know, one partner will be saying something and then I will say something. And the other person gets it, then the original person is like, really, are you allowed to curse? Oh, God, yeah. Cursed it up, girl. Like, what in the actual fuck I've been saying this for so long? And now she says it once and you like get it and hear it.

And so, yes, sometimes it is about having a third party come into it who's able to reflect back what's being, like what I'm observing, right? But I think probably one of the most important things is that when you're having that experience, not wavering from it, right? not backing down from it, not like throwing in the towel and being like, I guess this is how I'll be treated, you know, like that you just stay firm and committed and grounded to this is the experience and I'm not okay with it. Right. I think like what we're talking about are things for people where they don't feel okay with how they're being treated. And so the negotiation for them is not to

become okay with how they're being treated, right? Like they are observing something that doesn't feel okay for them and they have to stay to it. So it's still voicing it. It's still bringing it forward. it's you know I think sometimes we can become accusatory about the family and so owning like how it is you feel obviously in therapy we talk about about starting with eye statements which I think like sometimes is the role of the eye and like a little bit annoying and feels elementary but there is something about just saying like listen this is my experience of what's going on and and I feel like less than I don't feel honored in this space as opposed to your mom's a bitch or like it can't stand your family or like that's is going to be the thing that puts somebody on the defensive, especially if they, like, care about their family or love their family, don't want to see their family as flawed. And so when you can start to invite them into understanding their perspective and saying maybe the intention is not meant to be this way, but the impact on me is I feel not part of this family. I don't feel seen, right? Like if somebody's not asking any questions. Right. So you can change that language a little bit.

But if somebody's really defending against their family, I probably would recommend a third party coming into the equation and trying to navigate it that way. I mean, I think the implication is that like you're not the enemy. Like you love this person. You care about them. And you do want to make it better because you want to get along with their family and the people they love. It's not because you're the bad guy.

I want to fight with people. Like you feel bad in a situation because these are people that you really want to get along with. And it's such a bummer when you can't, you know? And it feels really demeaning and shitty and horrible. And sorry, what were you going to say? No, nothing. I'm just saying like I'm assuming this is why people break up.

up too where it's like I can't handle this and you are not seeing what I'm seeing and this will never change. Sure. And this is our third Christmas and I hate this and your family is mean to me and you will not take my side and we're done. I mean, I assume sometimes there's just like a breaking point for people. For sure. And also like a guy, I'm just going to say because we're talking, not going to therapy. You know what I mean? Like refusing to acknowledge it. And it's like, well, that's going to be the rest of my life. So see ya. I'm going to find somebody that validates me. Yeah. You know. Absolutely. You don't have to be best friends of people. you just still have to feel respect when you go into their homes.

For sure. I don't need to be best friends with all my significant others' moms, but I do need to be acknowledged and respected. Yeah. And as we said at the beginning of the podcast, it's like as long as you feel like you do have a teammate who sees it, you know, like how sometimes with couples, they have their own little language or their look or the like grab under the table

and you like squeeze the knee or whatever it is. And it's like when you feel that sense of like, okay, you've got me. So that's like I don't have to get caught up in this. that does that is relieving and then there are boundaries like maybe we only go for a couple of hours and then we don't stay over you know if it's like a thanksgiving or you know some something over the um like December holidays like so that I think is important when you can trust that your your person that can see your perspective um even if those people then don't respect or change at all right and

I mean that's to me if I was dating somebody in their family was really terrible and we just didn't like each other. If he didn't either and he's like, we just got to deal with this, like, I'd be like, okay, this is your family. I'm not trying to, if you're not trying to change your family, I'm not trying to change your family as long as we're on the same page. Right. Do you think there is anything you can do in those situations? Like if your partner agrees with you and you're like, I just really don't like these people, you stay at a hotel instead of like being in the home, right? And just like, yeah, minimizing the time, like boundaries probably are important too. Boundaries are important. Having a little bit of a plan is important if you're going

into their home, like his family's home or your home, right, having that plan ahead of time of, you know, do we need to stay at a hotel? Do we, how many days are we actually staying there? What's the plan for the day? Do we get out of the house to go get a coffee instead of like having breakfast with them? Like, how do we take that time away so that, you know, if my limit is like two or three hours before I need that break, you know, it's, it's that you guys agree on it ahead of time so that you're not sort of in like in the midst of it all and then looking for your you know lifeline so yeah thinking about it ahead of time is is important i think having some humor with it too is good you know i think when couples do see eye to eye um for example if somebody doesn't ask any

questions you know you just insert yourself and you start talking about yourself and it's just like there's like humor to it you sort of know what the other person is doing yeah and you're backing them um but yeah setting boundaries and knowing what's going to allow you to just be grounded in space is probably the most helpful thing. Because I picture scenarios where like you don't put the plan in place ahead of time and you don't alert your family, the partner that that's, it's their family. They don't alert them to like, hey, Ashley and I are going to go do this other thing at this time. And then you're stuck in a situation where the mom's like, well, I thought you were doing this with us. And then it just all blows up. And then Ashley becomes the bad guy. Right. Like it makes

you look like the bad guy. Then the guy, like maybe he's floundering and he's just like, well, it's because Ashley or, you know, I think it's like this lack of communication up top. For sure. Because I think you can talk to a family. I don't have the therapist here, but ahead of time and be like, just FYI, we're doing this and this is how we're going to do it. And the mom might freak out then, but at least she's had time. I keep saying mom.

The family member might freak out then, but at least they have time to simmer down and accept it before you arrive. I like that. And you're right. I think as long as you, it doesn't look like Ashley showed up for Christmas. Ashley has a problem with everybody. And now me and Ashley are leaving. Okay, but I have a question.

I don't want to weed and drugs. Yeah, just get drunk. Alcohol. Alcohol could not help a situation more. Or make it worse, though. Somebody sent us an email about, I think that parents and siblings

are very different in these situations. Like, if a parent doesn't like you, I sort of feel like, they're not going to be rough forever. I can tough this out. I can wait it out until they die. Also, like, they're not going to change. They're of another generation.

But if a sibling, I mean, brothers are never going to not like. It's sisters. that don't like do you have different advice when it's the person that's your age that doesn't like you and like why? Okay so I'll just give you like I had a boyfriend for a while the sister just had no interest in being

around me. We'd make plans with her. She'd cancel them. We'd buy tickets to things she wouldn't show up. She just had this like issue with me and I mean yeah I'm sure people have an issue with me but she and I just never spent any time. She just was not interested. I think she felt like someone was taking her brother away from her. She didn't even know me. There was no reason of a problem

with me. So I'm is there like different advice if it's a sibling? But what you just described is someone who is lacking their own self-awareness. Well, sure. Like upset me, like. He didn't like it when I made jokes about him wanting to sleep with her. But you do see that. I'd have found that that was the same thing with her husband.

The sister, like, didn't relax until she found somebody and got married. She was like, had a weird thing with her brother. So we don't know what's happening in their internal world. But when somebody doesn't like you for no reason, right, you can assume that they're, is something that's going on internally for them that they haven't been able to address and really iron out. So, you know, I think culturally we have so much pressure around like family systems all fitting together and we're going to be one big happy family and everybody's going to get along. And that's not that's not true. I think that needs to be updated because really what we find

is that most people are are moving away from trying to force the round peg into the square hole and you're creating the family system that you really want to have. For some people who have great family systems, like, that's awesome. That's wonderful. That's beautiful that you can expand that. But for a lot of people, they're using friends as family. They are, you know, get it partnering and then maybe having children and having that nucleus be their family. And when you have people who are resistant to like receiving you or liking you and won't challenge the things that are blocking them, there's not much for you to do. Or you can ask a partner to get curious with a sibling to be like, hey, what's going on? Like, you know, I notice that you don't like my partner, like any feedback there.

Like, there could be space there. Maybe at some point you sit down with her and you ask her, like, I really do want to have a nice relationship with you. And I'd love to spend more time and get to know one another. But like, I can't really, I can't really tell where you're at with that. And like, is there something that I'm doing that's bothering you? or feedback there that you want to give me because I would really like to have a healthy relationship with you. And sometimes that can go somewhere. And other times people might, like what you were saying before, Ashley, like, I'm not going to be okay until I have a partner too.

Right. Like that part feels really threatening. Or if it's a, you know, sometimes when it's a younger sibling who's partnered and you're not partnered as the older sibling, like, you know, the intensity around that where you feel like you're behind or how can my younger sibling or cousin be getting married and I'm not, right? So there's a lot of narratives in there that if we're not checking them, they can play into, like, I hate you and I don't even know why I hate you, but I do.

Or the person, you know, like, so I really do think it comes back to the lack of awareness. We can also sit here and say, you know, maybe check yourself to see, are there certain things that you're doing, right? Like, I do think it's important to look at yourself and become reflective and notice if there are things that you're doing that are pushing people away. You know, is there a part of me that's coming forward? Am I being judgmental? and that's something that another person's not viving with.

So looking at yourself and taking accountability, if there are certain things that are coming forward, that you're doing that might be rubbing people the wrong way. And then if you don't like your siblings partner, which, you know, I have a brother, a younger brother, and that's happened one time. But luckily, he also saw she wasn't bringing out the best of him. But he had like a thing for this girl.

We were terrified. I was like, this bitch will just get pregnant. Like I hate this girl. And he was having panic attacks. He was like, my brother doesn't even, has never had one since. And it was like driving him crazy that he couldn't, that nobody liked this girl because she was so terrible and so toxic. And luckily he's not with her anymore.

But I have a good girlfriend and her brother married that girl. And they have a child. And it's just like, I think what I did, I think I didn't go about it the right way. My brother and I were getting in fights. We never fought. We've literally had three fights. They were during the duration of this girl. And I think what would have been.

been more helpful to sit down with him and be like, I love you more than anything in the world. And this person is not bringing out the best in you. You know, like what, from your standpoint, like, what's the language there? Yeah. I mean, I think you're right in terms of where you probably could have gone with it because I think what I hear from you is that you're protective of him. You love him. You don't want him to be in a dynamic that is unhealthy or dysfunctional for him.

if he's having panic attacks for the first time in his life, like, hey, you know, like, is this relational? Or like, you know, what is this that's coming forward and coming from it from a space of love and compassion? But at the same time, sometimes people need to learn their own thing. You know, and that's the thing that's so hard when you watch someone who's in something that's unhealthy. And you, whether it's a friend, whether it's a family member, and you sort of want to step in and save them from it or block them from it or not have them go down that path. Like that's not, it isn't your work. As a person who loves somebody else, absolutely you can reflect back to them what it is that you see and you can express concern,

but you can't choose for them, right? Like you can't solve that problem for them. That's, that's their story to earn. You know, like that's their work to earn. So, yeah,

probably the better way in is like, is what you were saying is just coming from that space of love. But it may not have changed the, come as immediately as you as you wanted to. And I'm, yeah, I wasn't like, you break up with her or we're done. Right. Like, I'm not going to be your sister anymore. You know, I was just like, well, fucking wrap it up because this bitch is crazy.

Well, I think in your defense, at least you were able to say, like, let's look at the landscape of our entire relationship. I've never had a problem with girlfriends before. I'm not coming from a crazy place where I hate all your girlfriends. Yes. I'm still friends with all your exes. Right. It's just this one person I have a problem with.

So like, see my side of it that this is like a, a. one-off situation. And I think that like there's almost no such like people are like, I haven't done anything. And it's like, that's almost never the case. Like, like, when I'm saying like I didn't get along with this sister, I didn't know her. I didn't meet this person. I didn't do anything because I didn't know her. But like, I think a lot of times. You fucked her brother. That's what you did. That's what you did. A lot. I fucked him a lot. That may have been the thing. I'm glad that you said it's important to self-reflect because it's almost never, I didn't do anything. They everybody hates me and I didn't do anything. That's okay.

crazy thing to think. Sure. I think the only other thing that I'd offer is instead of always telling the other person about what's going on and what you see, actually getting curious about what their experience is, like, can you tell me about your relationship with her? Like, I would like to know, because maybe it looks a little bit different than, you know, what we see in our family gatherings. Yeah.

And, like, actually understanding what he experiences with this person. I know this is long, long gone. but for anybody who's listening, right, getting curious instead of, sometimes we come in like bulldozers and we're like, this relationship is bad and it's not for you and I can see it, right? I can see so clearly. And that's, you know, yes, the reflection is positive and powerful in many ways, or coming from a good place,

but also understanding what their experience of the relationship is because maybe they do open up and they say like, it's been really hard or I don't know how to get out of it or I'm really scared of X, you know. And so I think offering curiosity and asking questions about the relationship can also be something that we lean to. And maybe just so you understand

why they love this person so you can break that bond. I'm kidding. But like trying to understand. Like it really sounded good there for like the first part. I was like, I'm in. I'm nodding my head. I'm like, yes.

If I can understand how you love them, I can love them too. I just love her hair. And you're like, I'll show. shave her head in her sleep and then we'll be done with us. No, I, I have a friend that I, I've never been able to understand her and her partner's relationship. I, I don't want to get too specific because she'll know, but actually she knows. She knows I don't, I don't totally approve. I am always like, what do you love about him? And like, the answers have never been satisfactory

for me, but she's also a friend and she can live her life. And it might feel a little different. It was my brother, but like, yeah, what I probably didn't do, and this was years ago when I was a little less mature to was like, I couldn't bring myself to say, what do you like about Katie, fake name? But, you know, maybe a little bit more mature person would be like, okay, I'm going to try here. What do you like about her? I, so I'll give me an example and then I'll ask the question. Like, I used to never share a lot of things about my most serious partner with my family. I think bad. The fights, anything like that we weren't having terrible, horrible, like emotionally abusive fights. I just didn't share those things because I didn't want my family to form a

a thought around him and the feeling based on these negative times in our lives. And so, and my dad has done this with me with his wife as well, where he shared things about her in bad times where now I can't ever unknow those things. And it has formulated my opinion of these people and I can't unformulate it. So like as the partner, like how can you manage not telling people that kind of stuff? Like I'm sure, like I sounds like Matt didn't really tell you. He didn't have to tell it. It was apparent. It sounds like you saw that stuff. But I dealt with that. It was with an ex-exam. mind. Like there was things that I didn't share until, because we were always getting back together

on and off for a long time where I was like, if I share this thing, he'll never be allowed around my family again. And they know that stuff now, but I just knew, this also comes with maturity. I think, like, you, I think, like, when you're younger, you just, like, spew everything out. And if you're good friends with your mom and you just, like, tell your friends everything because you're so worked up. And I think the older you get, you draw it more in because you know that you hate this person right now and you think you're never going to get back together with them, but then your head clears and you're like, I probably shouldn't tell my best friend this horrible thing he just did because she'll never be able to look him in the face again. Right. So I think

like when I hear people say like my partner's whole family hates me and I don't get it. Like I think a lot of times they've probably shared those situations and you're not aware of what's been said behind your back. Yeah. A lot of couples have agreements with each other around, you know, like the privacy of some of the more intimate details of the relationship. Like, yeah, you don't just go off and tell you're, you know, a parent every time you have a fight. And, you know, I do get that. Like, you're trying to protect the image of the person. And, you know, a lot of times we don't go and talk about all the positives.

Like, we don't, we tend to focus on sharing the negatives because in those times is when we need more support. And, you know, sometimes we're looking for people to validate our side of things or our experience. So, yes, like, is that. there, should there be a boundary around how much we spew and how much we share? Absolutely. Is there a need to sometimes share that with someone you trust, whether it's a therapist or, you know, a really good friend who you, who you know is able to have, I like to call it like elasticity with the relationship where it's like, okay, like we all go through hard things. Right. You all, you know, like, you have that friend that like, she'll be fine no matter what. That's right. Because the reality of it is, is like, we all, we all have hard moments, right? Like,

sometimes some relationships have many more of them and they're much more frequent, but we do have hard moments. And if we have some story that like you need to be perfect in order for me to like your partner, that's, that's pretty skewed. Right. So I think it's important to have at least one or two people that you can go to where you don't have to process all of it on your own. But also trusting that that person has that elasticity to know that people go through hardship and sometimes we do fight and sometimes we do say, you know, terrible things to each other. And that doesn't mean that it has to change your full vision of this person. The other piece that I want to say is that, you know, sometimes, for example, if it's something like a partner has cheated, that's what I was

going to say. It's when you go through that healing process and if you do choose to stay with that person through it and after it, when you are really grounded in that decision, most people can feel that and understand why you've chosen to commit to this relationship, why you've chosen to like, whether it's a forgiveness or a letting go or starting a new chapter. And so when you can present why you guys are staying together, you know, generally speaking, people will get on board with that. If you feel unsure, then people feel unsure, right?

It's like sort of that energy that you bring to it. Like if it's like, we fought, now we're back together. We fought. Now we're back together. And like, nothing's changing. Then people are like, oh, bullshit, you know? But if you are actually leaning into the work and you've come out the other side of whether it's therapy or whatever it is that you might be doing to reconcile and it's grounded and

clear, people get it. I don't know if you've ever experienced this with friends before. I certainly have, and then obviously with clients, but you can tell when a person like knows why they're taking this person back, like why they're continuing on with the relationship. And when it feels grounded, you're like, I trust you. And they're not asking for your opinion either. The decision is I'm doing this. decision. And I would imagine that like, right, I'm not asking for your approval. Right. And also,

by the way, I should say, Ashley and I are never saying, don't talk to you about your problems. You should talk. But like, maybe mom insists, for sure. Aren't the people you talk to after a tiff with your significant other. Yeah. And this happened actually with a, with an ex of mine that like he did something terrible and it kind of affected our family. I'm not going to get into details. It wasn't anything crazy. But, um, well, it was crazy. But anyway, bottom line, I wanted him to still come to Christmas. We got back together. And my mom was like, your dad doesn't want him to come. And so you got to talk to your dad. And I was like, what? Like I, my dad, like, has never said no to me or disappointed me. You've been

disappointed to me. You know, like, I couldn't believe it. And I had to call him on the phone and, like, explain the situation and why, why happened, happened and try to paint my partner in a sympathetic light and win my dad back over to get him to allow this guy to come into our home and spend a holiday with us. And, you know, I was able to do it. And my dad's a great guy. And so I kind of did that too. And then we obviously, we still work up. But like, it was a situation. But I, I don't, I don't know, I have a girlfriend and it's just, it's like she, this guy just cheated on her multiple times. I think he's just a cheater. I think he's just a piece of shit guy. I think he's that kind of guy that's like, I'll always get her back, you know, however, I'll do it once and I'll get her back

with the jewelry and I do it again, I'll get her back with this. I'll do it a third time. I'll get her back by proposing. And I, it's like, I can be happy for, I guess, but I never want to be in the same room with that guy. I know, but everything that you just said reveals that you don't trust her. Would you trust her? Yeah, like, you don't trust her decision. making. You don't trust her strength within herself. Right. Right. Like you can see everything that's happening. When you trust someone, right, when you trust a friend, right? Do you see what I'm saying? Like, when you trust that person, you can see that they've done the work to be able to see clearly, to not just get, you know, the gift or the this or the that. Right. Like, that's, that's the

distinction. You will, if that person had done healing work and this guy became really honest, and you would start to feel that. You would see that. You, it would be. represented in the relationship. I know we said before, like, maybe nobody's really asking for your permission. Right. But, like, you're still feeling it. Like, if you have a partner and you have to integrate them back into your family, and sometimes that does take time after an affair, for sure.

But it's earned over time, right? The family members might be able to start to see the changes, the integration, the work that the couple has done. A lot of couples stay together after affairs. And I would say a lot of the time they are stronger, more open, have had an awakening through that process that sometimes isn't understood by other people, but can sometimes be felt once you start to see that couple in motion again. I think what you're feeling is that that guy didn't like do the work and feel bad. But this is fair on his wife. He cheated on his fucking hot, young, beautiful girlfriend over and over and over it.

And then every time he came back and he was like, I did the work. I think maybe you're like bullshit. path. I mean, what else? It's just, you never know. And like, I, you know, I hope it works out for them, obviously. I, of course, you want the best for your friend. But I think it's tough sometimes when you're like, this isn't the one time affair that you guys did the work. This is just a cheater. Totally. And you can sniff it out for sure. I mean, the example that you're giving is like one of the most obvious ones. You're like, I can see it so clearly. And I can see your, like, you are saying that your friends sort of blocks or limitations or like whether it's a lack of worth or a lack of confidence

even though she's this young, beautiful, you know, et cetera, et cetera, all the things that you said are like that there is something where there's a lack of, you know, self-respect or a lack of worth or a lack of deservingness to be treated in a certain way. And it's, it isn't, you certainly don't trust him. But my point was like not trusting the individual to make the decision for themselves that you know is going to respect and honor her. Right. Right. But, but also, So it's, okay, like, what am I going to do? There's not, there's not a whole lot there. And sometimes that means that, you know, the relationship, the friendship shifts.

Yeah. And we haven't, honestly, we have not. Yeah. Because we talked so much when she was, like, single. And, uh-huh. Oh, I see. You know, it's a kind of thing. You also feel like, I feel like a full.

We have logged so many hours, like getting you over this guy for you to get back together for them. And, I mean, I've been there too. I had a back and forth relationship where my friends were just like, oh, really again. Like, I'm done wasting my time. time talking to you. But that's probably how you're feeling. This is super applicable to your family.

Your mom probably listens to you cry and cry and cry and be hysterical about stuff. And then you're just like, can take them back. Right. You know? Absolutely. You know, my family, they're not entitled to just, they don't have to listen to me, cry about something and just forever. And then I'm just, I wake up and I take the person back.

And so I understand being angry and being mad. And I guess you just also like, we shouldn't always be afraid to have the fight. Have the fight. If your family is mad at you about that stuff, then like, you should talk about it and have the fight. I don't know. And own it. Like, I know.

I'm sorry. I wasted all your own times. I thought it was over. We're back together and I'll deal with it. No, I don't know. I also, I wanted to back up too to the stuff about not getting along with the families. Like, where is like the line of like you have to just like zip it on something you don't agree with with somebody's family? Like you hate this thing, but it really isn't affecting you.

So how do you just shut the fuck up? What would something not affecting you be? I guess not affecting you, but affecting your partner. You know, like maybe they have a really toxic family member and you see it affecting your partner, but you're like, that's his dad or something. You know, like, can I really tell him his dad's a piece of shit? You know, can I say these words?

Like, I don't know. I think that was a problem that I've experienced in the past where I just can't shut the fuck up. You know, like the thoughts I'm having are flowing. And it comes from a place of love. It comes from a place of like, I care about you and don't want you to have to go through this. But then there's a line where then you just insulted their mom.

But I know what you're saying where you're just like, I need you to draw the line because you are being emotionally abused and you're being taken advantage of. And like everybody else around you is so crazy. And like I need you to stick up for yourself. Right. Yes. Like when are you even allowed?

Yeah. I mean, your dad's a piece of shit. It's not like the verbiage. But like that is what you want to scream at some point where you just watch me to get trampled all the time. Right. That's a great example. Yeah.

And it's just like you, I care for you. Yeah. you're talking about like setting the boundary for your partner when they're not able to set it for themselves and especially when that's been the pattern probably for you know decades upon decades um sometimes having that conversation with your partner outside of the family unit like Connor and I my husband and I we've we've had this conversation before and you know we I remember you know talking about a dynamic with my mom and Connor said you know I know I know that at some point, like when I see this happen, I'm, I am going to step in and I'm going to say

something to her. And probably, I don't know, maybe like eight months ago, it played out. And he was like, to my mom, he's like, Erna, you're not listening to her. Like, pause for a second. And he did it respectfully. And it, you know, like it wasn't, like turned on hearing that. It wasn't an attack on her. He's great. Yeah, he's awesome. But your husband can also be like, I'm, I earned this. I'm her husband. I've spent enough time reading the situation. Sure. Yeah. I think he's allowed to say that too.

Yeah. Yeah. And she did listen to him and she did pause and he was really, he was firm and stern with her without putting her down, without being rude to her. And she was able to listen to parts of it even though I don't think she got the whole thing. But, you know, I remember like feeling like, okay, like I really actually appreciate you being able to witness this experience. because when I say it, it wasn't getting through. It wasn't shifting anything. But when you said it, it came from,

we talked about the third party before, right? It's like, here's this person stepping in to say, this is what I'm observing. Like, you need to stop because what you're doing is, you know, affecting her in XYZ way. Now, I had given that permission ahead of time. So I think sometimes it's like, is what I'm going to do going to be, like,

is it going to serve something? Or is it going to just cause more chaos? and your partner may not want you to do that. And then part of our work is to set boundaries then and say, well, I'm not comfortable listening to your parent. Be so critical of you every single time I'm home. And like I don't want to, I, as your partner, I don't want to observe that.

I don't want to be privy to that. And that might mean, I don't, I actually am not going to go with you because I can't, I can't witness this. And people have to take those stand sometimes. I know it can sound really extreme and kind of dramatic. But when you're really affected by, someone being treated a certain way.

Sometimes it's being the person who's willing to take the stand where then finally your partner might be like, whoa, like you actually just did that. And even if that upsets the family, like, that's okay. You're like the system's allowed to shake. You're not here to make it peaceful for everyone else all of the time. When something's really disrespectful or critical or abusive or whatever, like you are allowed to take a stand. And I know plenty of people who go home on their own.

like, yeah, my partner won't join me because, like, you're super critical. Well, and I think women, you get turned off by it. Like, you're like, I'm watching you just get shit on and disrespected. It's like, and you can stand up for yourself. And I am feeling like, I hate to say, it sounds so shallow, but, like, kind of turn off by it. Like, you look like a little bitch. Stand up to your family. I don't know.

I just think that's kind of, it's tough to, every family's different. And I can picture a scenario also where someone that's a little more vulnerable with a little a more dysfunctional family is like, okay, well, they're all I have. You know what I mean? And like, you're just my girlfriend. So, I mean, unless you're signing up to be my family for the rest of my life, I'm not going to turn away. You know, I'm not going to go up against my family. I don't know. And there's tons of different. It's interesting, though, because it's like resting on whether or not I'm going to have my own family with you or not, when at the end of the day, it's not even about that. It's about like setting boundaries and having self-respect and honor and being able to confront something when, you know, it's not right. And so I

totally got what you're saying about it, not being something that is like favorable or, you know, like a turn on because what's happening is like, I don't trust you to be able to confront or have a hard conversation or set a boundary or like communicate something. And that is information for you as the partner, right? Like what you're witnessing is a representation of how that partner then shows up in other areas too, right? So when you have somebody who can set a boundary or speak up for themselves or say that I'm not going home or like, you know, confront an issue, that that does tell you that they're able to do that with you in other areas of their lives, et cetera.

Do you see situations where you have to tell a client like, you know what, like this just isn't your place and just you're just going to have to get over this? And maybe not where your partner's being disrespected, but there's something else within the family that you're like, maybe it's cheating. or whatever it is, something you don't agree with and you have to just be like, that's not your battle to fight, you know? Yeah. I mean, I think sometimes we look at the things that we have control over

and the things that we don't have control over, that's a lot of the conversations in therapy because what you can and cannot affect and how those things that you can't control are taking up space in your world, like if you're getting so upset and you're getting so activated by something that you actually have no access over, like what does that then mean for you?

You're just going to be in chaos, but you can't actually control that. So then it does become about, you know, letting go, accepting the things that you can't control, setting the boundary so you're not affected by it as much. Like if you're, I don't know, like frequency of experience, like how often you're around a person who like really triggers you or, you know, that type of thing. So, yeah, you have to work on the, yes, it is, it is true that sometimes in therapy that when there are things that are outside of your control, like you are being, you're thinking about what it looks like to like.

go and accept. I think that it's really, I mean, I've learned this a lot recently and I thought about, do I want to talk about this episode? But it's okay. I'll talk about it lately. And I just don't really get along with my father's wife. And for me, I need to, like, I got so angry last week of all stuff that happened. Yeah. I was like on the street screaming. I was crying. I was calling Ashley. I'm calling my other family members. I'm calling my mom. I'm so mad about all these things. And I just like, I have to find a way to be okay and not let this person affect me like this. because it's unhealthy for me, and they're not splitting up, and I need to find a way to communicate to my father.

I still love you, I support you, I just can't be around this. And I think that maybe it is just, you just can't be around the person. And that is just sort of at the end of it. But it's tough for you because you want to see your dad, you know? And so you've had, since we've been friends, you have had a struggle with explaining to your father that, like, I want you to come without her. And you've had to tread really lightly.

And you've made it happen. Yeah, at least I will say, like, my partner in this situation is my father. He does understand. So at least he's not saying to me this is crazy. He understands how I feel. He just doesn't want to go home to his partner and have those fights either. He's just trying to keep the piece. Yeah.

But it is really tough. And I've had to say to my, like, I think that like all these things are really nice in theory. But like you, in practice, it's really hard to do these things. I want to give credit for that. It is really, really tough and practice to do this. We did this last year. We talked about the holidays. And you said it earlier.

Like times change. Like this isn't, we need to spend things. given with my family, we need to spend Christmas with your family. You don't have to. Like, it's not, there's no rules. If you don't get along with this person's family, let them go home with their family, let you be with yours. There's no, it's not really always one big happy family. And I think people get wrapped up in this, like, old school way where you, we did this and then we did that. It's like, you just don't have to. Like, set your boundaries. You're probably going to have a healthier relationship with this person's family that you hate when you don't go see them, you know, have the relationship

from afar, be friends with them on Facebook. Yeah. You know? Yeah, I mean, I think what you're saying about your dad's wife is really reminding yourself of the expectations when you walk into that space. Because I think when you're saying like, you're there and then, you know, like, you're outside and you're crying and you're calling your friends and like, all the things. It's like there's a disappointment that winds up happening, right? Like, there's something where, and maybe it's, I am just hoping that this time is going to be different, right? And maybe that's not your story, but I think it can be a lot of people's stories where it's like, you go back into that space and you're like, maybe we're going to get along this time,

or maybe mom's not going to be critical, or maybe dad's not going to be drinking as much. Or, you know, you get hopeful. And I always say, like, that line between hopefulness and dysfunction is really thin sometimes where we tell ourselves a story that sets us up for feeling really sad and disappointed and upset. And sometimes when we go back into that space where the expectation is off and then the thing happens, we're like, oh, like, why did I, like, tell myself that it could have been different? And that focuses on, you know, the part where the things are maybe not as changeable as we'd like them to be. And so when we go into it with the very clear expectation of like, what I really ought to expect in going home or going to see dad is like if his partner is there, like, this is what I'm going to probably feel.

And if you're pleasantly surprised, awesome, but to sort of prep yourself for that. Well, I don't know. That sounds like pretty negative. It's not, I don't think of it. But like, it is really important to just ground into what you know is true and not allow this hopeful part of you. And it's, it's a sweet part that so many of us have that's like maybe it will be different, right? And really bringing that part back into the center where it's like, it's not, if it's not going

to be different, what should I expect? And how do I need to like really protect my energy in that space so that I don't have to have my world sort of flipped upside down when the thing happens? Well, you probably did that with your sister's, your brother's girlfriend, too. You're like, I'm a rational, smart person. I can get along with anybody. Yeah. Right?

Every situation, you're like, I'm going to be fine. Yeah. But then you just can't. You like, let yourself down. You're like, I can manage these emotions. It's so true. And then, like, you just can't. And it's crazy.

Well, it was funny because she, um, one time she came to Christmas and, uh, I tried. I was like, cute outfit or whatever. Or like, I was like, I'm going to get along with her going to the club. She's a fun party girl. You know, like, I don't hate her personality, actually. You know, my brother liked her, so there's something there. And I was like, I'm doing so great. Like, you know, I'm going to like her.

She's here in our home. Killing it. And then, like, a few days later, she flipped out because she saw on social media that I had been hanging out with one of his exes and came down on him and they were fighting. And so my brother took it out on me. And I'm like, this bitch is ruined our family. Like, I tried. And I was like, it's different now.

Maybe she's changed. And then she picked a fight with him a few days. later based on something so wild that he and I fought. And that's when I was like, hey, Matt, we never fight, right? You realize that. And this is like the third fight in a year, like all stemming from this girl. But yeah, I did have the moment where I was like, I'm going to be better. I'm going to make an effort with her.

Oh, God, I get worked up. I know. I feel like we're in a therapy session. It does. Like, I didn't think we would talk that much about if you don't like, if you're the family and you don't like the significant other. But yeah, it can make you insane. Yeah.

I wanted to talk about difference in family structures because obviously everyone's a product to their family. And I think this is something I've struggled with. I'm sure I might not have friends that have and listeners and our listeners probably have too is, you know, there's this adage of like you end up with somebody that has the same type of family as you, you know? Is your husband an only child by any chance? He is an only child from his parents and then they divorce and then they went on to have.

So, I mean, yeah, I mean, whatever. and you can tell me if I'm wrong, but you hear a lot, like, my parents are happily married, I'm going to find a partner that's parents happily married. I'm an only child. I'm going to be with an only child. I think there's all these, or I have a really broken home and a lot of trauma, so I find somebody that understands that. And yeah, we fight back and forth, but at least we know where the other person's coming from. And I had a situation where, like, I just have this really perfect stable family. And I fell in love with somebody that had a really not stable family with a lot of trauma and I had never experienced it before and I was not equipped to handle it at all.

Like I never dealt with that where the person's triggers come from. Like I think now I would be a lot more equipped. But I'd love to speak to that of like you fall for somebody for other reasons and then stuff starts to get dredged up and where do you go? Yeah. I mean, I think that oftentimes we can be attracted to familiarity, I think, is what you you're saying, right? It's like that there's some type of structure, there's some type of experience that has happened that sort of brings you together, bonds you, that is when you're first

meeting that person, you're like, I totally get you. You know, like that feeling of familiarity. And so, yeah, like sometimes it may look structural, like, oh, you've got siblings. So, and I do, you know, and like, that's really important to me because I want to be with a big family. Sometimes it doesn't have to look exactly that way, but why are we drawn into people? And usually, right, Like there's a, from a subconscious place, there's a, there's a pull into like, can I, can I heal with you? And sometimes someone can see the, the example of the family that they've, that they've craved for. And so there can be this sort of pull that is giving you the thing that the, like that you didn't have before. So we can be on both sides of that, right?

Sometimes in patterns, we wind up choosing people who are going to trigger us really similarly in the same way that our, that our, that our, that our, family system has, it sort of repeats the wounding, right? So, for example, if, you know, if you had an alcoholic father, let's say, who was so distracted by the drinking and, like, really wasn't present, you may not choose a partner who drinks, but you may choose somebody who prioritizes something else. And so the familiarity is, I don't feel important. I don't feel like I'm a priority in your life. It may be work. It may be, you know, like, it could be something totally different than alcohol. But that familiarity of the wounding and the pain can sometimes resurface.

Sometimes we're aware of what I didn't get and what I really crave in a partnership is the opposite, right? So sometimes we take the path of repetition or we take the path of opposition. If I didn't have a great family system, I'm looking for someone who has the, like, the picture of the perfect family. I'm going to oppose what it is that I grew up in so that I can like heal, quote, unquote that way. The problem is if we're not bringing our, like if we're not doing our work, we don't know why we're choosing what we're choosing. We don't know why we're leaning into certain

things. And so sometimes we recreate the same. I'm sure you've had friends who have been like, I keep dating the same type of person over and over and over again. And if you're ever guilty of saying that, like, there's a wound that's getting just recreated that you're not bringing enough awareness to to understand what it is that you're actually needing in order to heal. this work can be confusing, right? Like, it's hard to unpack all of it probably on a podcast for people where it lands. But that is the work of understanding, like, why I'm choosing, who I'm choosing, or like, what, how we come together and, you know, are there certain things that I heal? Did you want to, like, save him or fix him?

Or what was your role with him? No. Not really. I feel like that's who he needed was somebody that felt a little more like that. But I think that it's just figuring out how does that person fit into my family and how can I understand that? Like, can it ever work if somebody comes from so much trauma and they don't value family necessarily? I'm not saying he didn't. But, like, I've dated people who come from a ton of trauma? And they're like, what do I need family for?

I have friends. I'm fine. You know, can that person ever fit into the dynamic of, like, mine and Ashley's family? We're like, oh my God, our families are so perfect. But, like, yeah, we're very blessed and we're very lucky. Both of our brothers are with people that we really love as well and love their family. And so, like, can we date somebody? Yeah, sometimes, sometimes not, right? Like, I think if there's room for the narrative to shift and

change a little bit, sometimes, yes. Like, sometimes that's the thing that they know and they haven't understood or valued it in the same way just because they haven't, they don't have the same history as you do. Or you're right. If somebody's like really in sort of like one end of the spectrum where they're like, screw that, like that, I don't care about that. Yeah, like those might be the differences where you're like, okay, like the things that we really value in this world are just misaligned. We can be compatible in certain areas of the relationship and then have something that's missing that is a really big, you know, pillar of your relational values that isn't there. That may be the reason you, you know, end a relationship. Well, and I think therapy is huge. And what I did in that

relationship was go to therapy to try to understand my relationship and him more. And then he went to therapy and then, which he needed to go to therapy. Most people do. I just think someone has to do the work. Because I think there's a level of like, I have all these triggers because of the way I was brought up and I'm taking them out on you and using you as a punching bag and not doing the work. And then there's like, I'm doing the work.

Please just like bear with me. Like I'm trying my hardest, you know? Like I'm hoping to get there and just kind of like need your support in this time. You know? So I just think there's relationships like that can just be like there's could just be a lot of volatility. And I know a couple. that when they started, they fought a lot now.

They're great and they're married, but they both have some family trauma and broken families. And they, it's just they're really a healthy, happy couple. But their vibe has always been like us against the world. You know what I mean? Like they're very like, we're doing holidays just us. You know, we don't need our crazy fucking family around. You know, I think there's that can work too.

I don't know. It just, I know it can work when you have come from a completely different families, but I see it more likely that people have similar family structures. Yeah, I think you just have to have patience. And we say this all the time. Like, think about what you're, like you said, pillars of what you want.

If that is not a pillar of what they want, then like that maybe just isn't your person. Like if I had somebody that just wanted to go away to the Bahamas for Thanksgiving and Christmas every year, that's just probably not my person. They don't value the things. I don't need to be at home for Thanksgiving. But the overall theme of that is like,

we don't need to be with your family. And that's probably not my person. Well, and that's similar values is like, my partner that I mentioned, like there was good family members there and he really valued them. So he valued family, like, which is we can work with this. It's like, you know, we both see like, they're really important to us, you know, the family members that we have. And it's like, if someone just didn't value family, like I once dated a guy that just he wasn't close with his siblings, he wasn't close with his parents and couldn't really tell me why. And again, like maybe had we dated longer, I would have found out. But I don't really think they're was anything crazy there. You know, his parents were still together. His dad was a doctor. I mean, you know, I'm just, I don't think he was like abused and molested.

Just what I'm saying. Like, I don't know. I think he just didn't really care about anybody. Wait, you're so. I went out of day with this guy and he said, you know, brother and his sister. And he was like, no, we're not close. And I was like, why? And he was like, just don't feel like it.

I was like, I never went out with him again. I thought that was a crazy thing. It was a huge red flag. And like, he wouldn't spend holidays with them. He was, you know, he was like a climber. Did you guys watch free solo? Those people are weird. kind of like that detached the guy in the movie, the free solo, which is great.

Can't recommend enough. But I just knew we weren't going to work. So it's like, if you have this really dysfunctional family, but you love them and you want to, you value them, that's more for me. We can go somewhere from here. But day one, they're really close to my family. I'm like, I need more information than that again. Well, I'm just, I don't want to sign up to like unravel three decades of how people

fucked you up. I just, I don't know if I can, maybe I can. I don't know. It's not my job. That's what I'm saying. Like, I will be around for the highs and the lows, but I don't know that it's my job to do that. I mean, I think they, generally speaking, we're looking for people who have at least done

some of their own work. Yeah. So like, regardless of what your, like, family structure and, and the makeup of your history, like, if you've done work to address it, like, that's the thing that really matters. what the details are like okay like most people have a bit of a story you know like that's okay of course but when you don't address it when it's just like running the the show and you're like I don't know I don't know why I feel anything you're like yeah that's that's generally not the partner who's going to be able to I like to say stand shoulder to shoulder with you where you're like that that team

aspect of it where you're like yeah we're committed to doing the work we've got stuff of course everybody's got it and I trust you to look at your stuff. You trust me to look at mine. I'm not responsible for you. You're not responsible for me. Of course, as a team, we're there to, you know, like help each other and, you know, be committed to each other's growth. But yeah, I'm with you in that regard. Like you can, I think you can tell pretty early on whether or not a person is like introspective has done any, any form of self-reflection whatsoever. And if they're, they haven't done that. Like, that's going to be a really hard dynamic to navigate. So that's my two sense on it. I think sometimes women want to save this guy. So I think sometimes you can have a woman and this

can happen. I think you grow up and I think you mature and kind of realize that's a little unrealistic. It can happen, I guess. We get emails and messages all the time from girls and they're in their 20s and I'm reading it and I'm like, that guy is work to do. Like, you can't save this guy. You know, like they write this long story and I am just thinking that guy needs to go to therapy or something. I don't know the answer, but he's trying to work. He's trying to work through his trauma through you and think probably on some level thinks if she just loves me enough, I'll be fixed. And it doesn't work like that. And I, you know, it's sad because I think sometimes you just really love these people. Of course. And especially if it's your first love, you know,

It's just like, I just picture this like, you know, 22 year old couple and they're so in love and this girl's just like, he's so broken, but I'll fix it. You know, if I just love him enough and then again, guys can't work him enough. Go back to our episode called Should Love Be Unconditional because we have thoughts on that too. But you learn the hard way. That's what I'm saying. And so I think people need to do the work. Yeah, absolutely. You learn the hard way. Like, you have to go through. You have to have your own takeaways from it. Those things over time give you the information that you need to hopefully get to a place where you are, you know, choosing well and sort of seeing the full big picture in that example. Like a lot of people think that if,

if you choose me, then I am worthy enough and good enough and loved enough too on the other side of it. Like, I can love you enough to fix you, but also if you navigate this and choose me, then I'm, then I know that I'm validated and affirmed too. So there's like so many layers that play out in dynamics. But yes, as you move through it, as you date, as you have endings and breakups, you go through all of the ebbing and flowing that relationships bring forward for us, you know, listen to the things, like look for the takeaways, spend time and trying to gather the information that the experience is trying to teach you because it will inform you as you move

on and, you know, get back into the dating world or start a podcast. Or start a podcast and have people on and learn. about it. Invite therapists on your podcast. Guys, we're not paying for this therapy session. That's all I'm saying. I don't know what your hourly rate is, but this has been free. You'll get, you'll get 10 to 1,000 of Instagram followers. This is great. Is there any other like takeaways in terms of like, we have a little bit more time? I mean, do you have any overwhelming things that people come to you with when it has to do with family and relationships? I mean, navigating in-laws for sure. I mean, I think a lot of what

we talked about today are the things that a lot of people who are partnered are dealing with, for sure. Maybe not for people who are single and dating at the moment, although maybe they have their siblings, partners coming back, or they're dealing with setting boundaries with family. But I would say this time of year, of course, boundaries and boundaries and really aligning with your yeses and your nose and just like protecting your energy is really important because you oftentimes do go back into family systems where sometimes the beliefs are really different. I have so many, you know, a lot of times there's transplants in New York City. And so when they go back home somewhere and the belief systems, you were talking about just loosely like politics and

religion where you're like, oh, like, we're just, we are misaligned and okay, that's okay. But like, how do I navigate this space with you? And so that's one of the things that's been coming up a lot in sessions as of late, as people are starting to anticipate and predict like what they're going to be dealing with and like how they have to listen to that person, you know, say the thing that they always say every year, like, prepping themselves for the person to ask them, like, why they're single because you're so beautiful and I just don't understand it. Or like, oh, when are you having the baby? It's like a lot of people who are super intrusive with their questioning and, you know, like how you do prepare and set those boundaries for yourself so that you don't get drained and.

Also, like, get a hotel. Yeah. I mean, if you could afford it. I mean, not a lot of people. Yeah, if you're younger, a lot of time. I mean, there was, I can't imagine getting a hotel back in the mid-day. If you go to like family Christmas dinner and there is like the racist uncle and like he says the most outlandish, most racist fucked up thing. Like I just don't know what I would do. I want to. Also here is, at that point I need my heart partner to have my back.

Like that's when I'm like shoving him under the table. Like can you tell Uncle Frank, you know, or. Yeah. But I think sometimes you just, what, by your tongue? I mean, I don't... Be a good fucking partner also ahead of time. And, like, your partner should tell you this shit ahead of time. True, true, true, true.

It is crazy if you have, like, a super racist uncle or, like, a super Trump-supporting mom. You've got home with them and, like, you just never knew. I know that happens probably a lot that you do walk into those situations. Men are stupid. They just haven't told you. But, like, yeah, men don't even tell you, like, where, what time the wedding is that you're going with them to do until the day of. Maybe. They probably lost the invitation anyway.

But, well, there's, they're not the best with preparation. I don't know if you follow Rachel Cargall on Instagram, but she wrote an article about, like, how to address exactly that. She's a woman of color. And it's a, it's a pretty cool article. I think it's something like how to, how to deal with the racist comments, like from your uncle at Thanksgiving. But it's a, I think that, that article is probably a good place to look.

Okay. And like, yeah, like, is it something that. you confront. Like obviously people sometimes feel really strongly about those things when it's like so unjust or you're like, no, like this is wrong. I can't bite my tongue. And you really want to take a stand. But you're not going to get anywhere. Sure. And I think that's, it's a good thing to think about ahead of time like you're saying. Like give me that heads up because I do want to know how I want to respond. Like is it something that I'm going to like educate someone on? Is it something that I am going to bite my tongue on? because I just feel drained and I'm not going to get into this type of conversation with someone

who's not going, who's not committed to like hearing me. I like to physically remove myself. Like I think saying I'm going to excuse myself makes a clear statement that I'm uncomfortable. And hopefully when you return to the table, they have stopped because they got the message. And like I had to do that just at a birthday party one time. I have a friend and her husband's family can veer that way and whatever. was happening in the news at the time. His mom said something that I was like, no, no, no, it's happening. I feel like my blood start to boil and I just went into the kitchen. You know, I just was like, if I sit here and hear one more thing, I might say something. So I just like physically left the room. Sometimes you take those, you know, there are steps that you can take and maybe at first

it's removing yourself. Maybe the next time it's saying, I really feel uncomfortable with this conversation. I know something, it's not about being dramatic, but like, I do think that we do have to be allies, or at least personally, I feel that way, like, that for people of color, they really need people in the privileged position to say something, to acknowledge it, because usually it's how someone who is not a person of color is going to be able to hear it as opposed to like two people going at war, a person of color, or not. And so, you know, for me, I do think as an ally when you're like, I don't, I don't agree with this or I don't believe in this, finding the way that, you know, isn't so drama-filled and it's not about getting

into conflict and this like full-on chaos and knowing that they're not even going to hear it. But even when you're just dropping those seeds where you're just like, I'm not going to engage in this conversation or like, that's a racist comment and that I just feel uncomfortable. You know, sometimes like just saying it and then moving your energy, like leaving the room, going upstairs. Like sometimes those are the like little awakenings where people are just like, oh shit, like, okay. So I'm a big believer in like, yes, not necessarily getting into the like full blowout conversation because a lot of times the other person is certainly not going to be able to hear you.

And they're not going to think, who's going to think you're a terrible person if somebody says a terrible racial thing or a terrible and then you get up and remove yourself? Like what do I care if they think I'm an asshole for getting up and leaving or calling them out? I just, you know, I don't care. I don't agree with you. I don't believe in the same things that you believe. And we should all be doing that with our family and our friends for 100%. Like this is how you are an ally to whoever women, people of color, is to like call out your family members and friends. I think that's one thing you can do.

But it's, I'm talking more when it's their family. And so that's when, yeah, lightly, I would hope if I was sitting there and I haven't run into this, thank God. But if I was sitting there with my partner and it was like his crazy racist uncle, I'm like, are you going to do anything about this? Do you want a blowjob ever again? you need to call your uncle out. He's a racist asshole.

Yeah, and those are some of those conversations, like the preparation conversations is like, hey, this really does make me feel uncomfortable and I, like, I would really like you to take a stand. Like how are we going to handle this if it should happen? Hopefully it won't. Or it does. And then the next time you go, like you have the plan in place.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. But I just, my thing is like I can't sit there. I feel like complicit. Totally. So I don't know. I just feel like the minute I open up my mouth,

I will go to a million. Like, I know, that's the thing. I can't hear like a racial slur against women, any support of Donald Trump at all. Like, I'll, I just can't. I just have to leave the restaurant. I'm done eating. I'm out. Yeah.

Oh, man. Well, I'm glad we covered that too. And we actually did a whole episode last year about how to handle the like, when are you single or when, you know, it's called single all the way. Because we can probably talk to talk with you about that for another hour. I read this thing. I think Jared Freed wrote it. He was like,

no one cares that much about you. Like, if the people are like, are you single? It's just a question to ask. We said that last year. We said people just want something to talk to you about. And they don't have enough content in their life.

And they're, you know, your people in your small town. They don't know what else to ask you. What are they going to talk to you about? If you pivot the conversation, like, yeah, I'm just dating around. But anyway, here's what's going on in my job. They will follow.

Yeah. People are just asking to create a conversation. And they're not going to talk about the baby food they picked up for their kid this morning at the grocery store. That's not interesting. So like, I just think people are just, it's not that big of it. Nobody cares as much as you do about that question. Yeah. And, and most people are not thinking about how this question is going to impact you, right? It's like, and so you either, you really, I mean, again, going back to like, what are you clinging to and what are you letting go of? It's just like, answer, move along.

Yeah. Bring up, then have things to talk about. You know what I mean? Like, I've actually said that to people is like, think about things that you would like to share when you go home. That way you have like a little package over here of like five things that you're like, I really love my workout class. I'm like, you know, whatever it is that you're just like, hey, this is the thing that I'd like to talk about if that is something that really upset to you. Or double down on it. Be like, you know what, being single is terrible.

I haven't been laid in a year and my life is horrible and just really open up that conversation. Just start crying. Bring more people in right. And when in doubt cry. Also, or you could go the other way. God, being single is so great. I was just like fucking this guy last night.

He came on my face and just like, make them so uncomfortable until they walk away. I just love what you said. Because we said it too, I like feeling validated that we're right and we're also therapist. But like just pivot, they're not going to be like, no, no, no, wait. I don't want to hear about your job. I want to hear about why you're single.

They don't care. No one cares that much about you as much as you care about you. Just small talk until everybody's drunk enough to go home. That's it. And the one uncle is saying the N-word. He should go home as well. He should go home permanently. Oh man. Well, this has been so great. Yeah. Thank you. This is a wide range of topics. Thank you so much. Anything else

you want to say to wrap up? Any last words of wisdom? And we're going to have you plug everything and tell people where they can find you. Last words of wisdom. I mean, I think we've covered a lot and I think we've all probably said it at some point today is that like we're not obligated to do anything. We don't owe people things if it crosses our boundaries. And so if that means not going home, if that means being around friends instead of somebody that you don't. get along with. Like, you have permission to choose things for yourself that protect your energy and, you know, keep you safe and secure. And, yeah, I'll sign off with that. Okay. I thought you have your energy. You have permission. Because a lot of times people are like, they want to hear that it is actually okay to not go home or to only go home for the day and then like take the car, you know, and go somewhere else. And yeah, like, it's okay.

even when they, others, don't think that it is. You are entitled to making those choices for yourself. I love that. I love that. Well, tell me where they can find your hundreds of thousands of followers on Instagram and where they can find your practice and anything else that you want to talk about. Yeah. Awesome.

So I'm on Instagram at Mindful MFT as in marriage family therapy. I'm in practice in New York City and Midtown. The website's New York Couplescounseling.com. That's where you can find all of the events and the retreats and all the things. And maybe like the upcoming thing is an online course that starts January 8th. It's a six-week course. I do live coaching calls. My husband and I run the course.

And it's called Get the Love You Want. And it is all about self and relational awareness. We go through boundaries, conflict, and sex and intimacy. Those are all the modules. So people want to. We should probably have you back because now I'm like. So many things. It's just about family.

Actually, she wants to come see you professionally as a therapist. This is so funny. We just keep having you back. And they're like, Ashley's just getting three free therapy. This was such a discussion. Whatever it takes. Whatever. Yeah.

Good to talk about this stuff today. So cathartic. All right, guys, well, we are wrapping up with Vienna and just stick around. We have a fun segment surrounding family with all your crazy submissions about family tradition. So stick around. We will be right back. All right.

We're back. And we're jumping back in with a new segment. And we asked you guys to submit emails. We got some really funny stuff. And Ashley has named the segment. It's just an easy, self-explanatory, freaky families. Yes. Specifically, your significant others family and their fucked up traditions.

Especially during the holidays. Especially during the holidays. Okay. Yeah, these are so fun. So freaky families. I am going to start with a throwback from last year's holiday show. We're only doing one that you guys. might know if you came to last year's holiday shows at Gramercy Theater, but we couldn't

deprive the rest of you of this one. It is a personal favorite. I don't want to throw this one on the garbage. Yeah, we just, we kept it around for a whole year. Okay. Their family tradition. Okay. She writes, so here's the story. My friend was dating her boyfriend for two years. It's always a friend. I'm just going to assume this is about her. Which we know is about you. Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll still read it like she wrote it. Okay. My friend was dating her boyfriend for two years. It was true love, and she was thrilled to spend their first Christmas Eve together at his parents' house. They did all the normal traditional Christmas Eve activities, and suddenly his mom came downstairs and said, It's time.

Her boyfriend then grabbed her hand and said, follow me. The entire family marched upstairs in a single file line and took an unexpected turn into the parents' bedroom. The entire family, mom, dad, brother, brother's girlfriend, and him all jumped into the parents' bed where she was forced to also join. They all got under the covers and turned off the lights. then they all held hands and sang silent night. Mind you that her boyfriend was 25 at the time and the brother was 27. Apparently this is their favorite family tradition. My friend is no longer dating this man.

Thank God. So Gigi listeners, we are wondering, is this weird. That's fucking weird. I don't, why the bed is what I want to under? It's like there's so much other furniture.

I don't, okay, other people's beds skeeving me out. I don't if you notice this. Like, I don't even sit on your bed. I don't want to sit on anybody's bed. Because you know your bed's just covered and come.

So you just assume. everybody else's bed is covered and come. It's like you drool when you sleep. It's gross. I definitely do. You're naked when you sleep. I just, I don't want to touch other people's beds. It's gross. And I certainly don't want to touch old people couple beds. I would not jump in my boyfriend's parents bed under any circumstances. I would fake diarrhea. I would be like I can't be in the bed. I'd be like that really frigid, uncomfortable person like sitting on the corner of the bed. Like, I'm good, guys. It just feels inappropriate to touch your things. I don't want to do this. Okay, I would do this before I did this next thing.

I will tell you this. Oh, you don't like this? This next story, the number one thing I'm afraid of in the world is mice. You just gave it away. Well, no, they're going to know in 30 seconds. Okay. So this next family tradition is, I wouldn't do it. Okay.

My sister married, okay, it's always somebody's sister or friend. My sister married into a big Italian family and her husband invited all us to their holiday dinner. They told us to bring Nichols and didn't tell us why. After dinner, they rounded up the 60 plus of us. and unveiled a homemade mouse racetrack. In the corner, there was a cage of little mice brought in by the uncle who owned a pet store.

They passed out little passport books that had different race lists with them with the names of a bunch of family members. Granny versus Uncle Polly versus Uncle Stephano, along with probably another 10 other races. They at least each round of mice and the cheering and hollery shook the house. Everyone bet with Nichols

and the winner of the last race got their name put onto the next year's race list. Let's just say there was a lot to talk about on the drive home. Can you imagine 60 Italians? They're all named Pity Polly and they're all yelling at these mice, slamming down nickels. Making it rain with nickels on the mice. I do like the family preparation that goes into there's like gambling, betting books. They like hand out like race names. Do you go to the horse track?

Do you watch horse racers? I know what you mean. No, I don't. It's like a lot of work to do what these people are doing. Okay, the new game is, is this true? True or false family traditions? I think this is true because the uncle owns a pet store. Allegedly.

Uncle Polly. Uncle Polly's pets? Okay, first of all, also. Polly's pet shop. Did you ever see the movie Goodfell? She's like, and every one of the names is Pedy and Polly. Yeah. Okay, so she nailed the name.

Uncle Stefano. I would say that's more true than that an entire family of grown-ass men get into their parents' beds, sing silent night. All right, guys, family traditions, true or false? this next one is easy to believe. Okay, she writes, I still gag when I think of the time

my ex's mom raved about their family's amazing mac and cheese recipe. She whipped it out at Thanksgiving and I was so jacked. Now we'd be friends with her. Turns out it was noodles, a can of cream of mushroom soup, zero seasoning with a sprinkling of cheddar cheese on top.

Family of psychopaths, she writes. Listen, I fuck with that. I would eat it. Okay, here's the thing. Notoriously, white people don't make the best mac and cheese. Like, when black people hear white people say, I make a good mac and cheese or like, I bet you do. You know, like, it's a thing.

My mom crushes mac and cheese, surprisingly, a little white woman. Wait, I crushed mac and cheese and I just realized, okay, I had like an African-American nanny growing up, whatever. Okay, my parents worked full time. And she taught me how to make mac and cheese. That's who taught me. And that's what I'm saying. Like, I think my mom does a good job.

A lot of white people don't. You can't call that mac and cheese. That's a casserole. Like, if you have a cream of mushroom soup at your Thanksgiving dinner, great. It's for the green bean casserole. Like, what do you do with a sprinkle of cheddar on top? I want to be able, I want the cheese to stick to my ribs if I'm eating mac and cheese. I love that she writes family of psychopaths.

That is like, that is like so funny because like you want to respect your boyfriend's mother. Like you're like, oh, I want to respect his mom. And then she makes this and you're like, I have no more respect for this woman. Absolutely not. Okay. Okay. Next one. I like the whole visual is so amazing. I love a visual. Okay. So I had an ex where instead of getting gifts under the tree, one of the parents would hide the gifts all around the house. I thought that was kind of fun until I found out on Christmas morning that all around the house actually meant all around the house and also outside in the backyard. And my ex's parents' backyard faced A in Hale Caves Forest that was also fair game. With a million question marks. So at like 8.40 in the morning. It's very specific time. I had to gear up.

my coat and boots and go out into the forest to go hunting for presents. Mind you, this is also the first time I was meeting the family, so I dressed for appearance is not functionality. I'm dead ass trudging through like three feet of snow in healed boots, a light coat, a sweater dress and tights, all caps. It was not a good time. I mean, that is crazy. You like a man, you pack to look so pretty and cute. And then like he doesn't mention to you that like you need to, you're going to go like cross-country skiing for presents. That's the thing we talked about in this episode.

You've got to warn people. Let them know what they're in for. Let them dress appropriately. Tell them what to pack. We do a treasure hunt in the forest. You're not going to tell your significant other about this family tradition. She only brought her heeled J-Lo boots.

This is amazing. Okay. The last and final one. He made me giggle. Okay. I was with my ex for a couple of years. Every Christmas, his stepmom would get a birthday cake for Jesus.

we all had to gather around the table to sing happy birthday to Jesus as she would bring out a cake and light the candles and yes the cake did say happy birthday Jesus I didn't know what to do I thought this was so weird

I looked around at the other significant others that the siblings had brought they all gave me yeah this is a thing sorry smirk I mean at least you're all in it together it's so cute also

at least it doesn't like erode your boundaries kind of tradition oh this lady though this is like a bless your heart lady yes you know like she is probably compensating for her shitty behavior and deep dark thoughts by baking a cake for Jesus. She sucks.

I mean, I don't even do that. So, like, I don't even bake cupcakes to say, I'm sorry to God. Also, I'm a Jew. You could 100% convince me that this was just a normal thing that everybody does every year. That's Christian people did. I don't know. Like, it wouldn't be that crazy if on Jesus' birthday you got him a birthday cake, like, I don't think it's that wild because I'm Jewish.

I don't know what you people do. Yeah. I mean, they definitely didn't have. birthday cake in the manger. Maybe. They did it. They had gold, mur, and frankincense. I know.

What? That's the three kings brought? None of it's real. No one brought a cupcake. I don't believe any of it, to be honest. It's strange. But no, there wasn't any birthday cake in the manger. But also, maybe she's a birthday fetish.

Like maybe, you know, someone who's like love birthdays? She's like, it's Jesus' birthday. We got to get a cake. Maybe she loves like an ice cream cake. I'm surprised she doesn't do like all month birthday. Like every day for the month. month, Jesus gets a present. Look at Advent calendar, but it's cake.

Yes. Okay. We have loved these so much. Thank you guys. Thank you for submitting your crazy family traditions. And it's the 16th. So we still have shows this week in Chicago and one more New York show. So if you have funny holiday stuff or just crazy dating stories, funny, weird, unbelievable,

but make them truthful. Listen, I try to include them and Ashley sees through them. I can see through you guys lies. I'm the first line of defense. I can see through y'all's lies. Sibitum email, hello, GirlsGutty Podcast.com, and we will see you guys all over the world.

We will see you in... Do you want me to do it? No. D.C., Boston, Australia, L.A., San Diego, Texas, all over, Florida, all over. GirlsGotty Podcast.com, Stupid LiveSows.com. I cannot believe we are finally doing it.

Australia? Australia. It's Ashley's dream. It's my dream. Yeah, follow us on Instagram. Girls Get Eat Podcast. Raina. greenberg, Ash Hess,

Girls underscore Gotta Eat on Twitter. And that's it. All right, guys. Have a good week. Bye.