Girls Gotta Eat - F*ck More, Drink Less 2022 feat. Therapist and Author Amanda White

Episode Date: January 3, 2022

It's a new year and alcohol is on the agenda -- we are joined by therapist and author of Not Drinking Tonight Amanda White (@TherapyForWomen). She shares her story of sobriety and walks us through the process and self-reflection for people who want to examine their relationship with alcohol and explore quitting or cutting back (and yes, we're chatting about the fear of dating and socializing sober). We're also discussing why our brains aren't made for the social media world and why it's ok to not be positive all the time. Before Amanda joins us, we're sharing our 2022 goals, Ashley has a confession, and Rayna revels in her recent cooking win. Enjoy and happy new year! Follow Amanda on Instagram @therapyforwomen and check out her book Not Drinking Tonight. Follow us @GirlsGottaEatPodcast, Rayna @Rayna.Greenberg, and Ashley @AshHess. Visit our website for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Thank you to our partners this week: Babbel: Use promo code GGE at babbel.com to get 3 additional months when you purchase a 3-month subscription. Living Proof: Go to livingproof.com/gge and use code GGE to get 10% off your first purchase. The Pill Club: Become a patient at thepillclub.com/gge and they will give a $10 donation to bedsider.org. Buffy: For $20 off your Buffy order, visit buffy.co and enter code GGE. Nutrafol: Get $15 off your first month's subscription + free shipping at nutrafol.com/gge. HelloFresh: Go to hellofresh.com/gge16 and code GGE16 to get up to 16 free meals + 3 free gifts. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Like the first thing I remember thinking when I said I was going to stop drinking was, what am I going to do on my wedding? Right? I wasn't engaged. I wasn't in a relationship. No, no, no. But that's often what we first go to. Welcome back to the first episode of 2020.

Happy. You guys, he's being extra cute today. Also, I just got back from Ashley's family's Christmas. I have never heard so many dog voices. Y'all's dog voices altogether. It's so funny. We'd like five dogs at one point. And everyone's dog voices.

Five? At the point where there was five, I was like, Is Rayna going to be okay? One of them also was named Bella, and I couldn't figure out who dog met. You just kept yelling Bella, and I was like, who is that? Even our dog.

When Bella ruined my nap, when I had that glorious Christmas day nap, and like every 20 minutes, I would just wake up and be like, Bella, shut up. Because she's right on. For a blanket, we were trying to watch the new sex in the city,

and your mom didn't have HBO, so we both pounded and went to sleep. That was like that really warm day. that's breeze. The door was open. I was catching a breeze. It was the best nap I've ever had. Bella tried to ruin it. She kept screaming about Bella and I, you know, I didn't realize that dog named with Bella for like a full 24 hour. He thought our assistant was there. She just, that's like her, that's her comes down. Bella! Well, yeah, Zul just got his full groom yesterday. My brother was roasting me on how hairy his butt was. So he got totally trimmed up and I have a bikini wax day

and I am dreading it because it has been so long. My bush looks like a Merkin down there. It's just not. It looks, it's like long again. It's like straight. I've done a bushup date in a while. Well, I just, I had COVID. And we just, we had our shows.

Like, this has been pre-holiday shows. We're recording the day before New Year's Eve. I guess I just could have said the 30th. But I'm just, you know, maybe going to get laid New Year's Eve. No idea by who. I ever thought like, I'm really trying to get laid, but no idea who it could be by. What a fun Russian roulette. That's my life right now.

So exciting. We took last week off. We're excited to be back with you. We're excited for an amazing year with you. I can't wait. I'm Ashley. I am Raina. And this is a comedy podcast about sex, dating, and relationships.

And if you're new here, welcome. If you're hate listening, thank you. Double welcome. Double welcome, because we know you listen twice. And yeah, we're just ready for such a good year. And we love you guys so much. And we're glad you're here again. Yes, welcome back.

Welcome for the first time. We are excited for a great year of shows, the podcast, live shows. I mean, what a gift to be able to do live shows with you again in 2021 and laugh with you guys. And I just missed you so much. So it was such a gift to be able to do that. So thank you guys. What should we talk about first? Christmas at the Hustle Times?

Yeah. Let's do it. No, no. I have a couple things. Okay. Okay. A couple questions for you. Did

Do this now? Have you donated to Wikipedia yet this year? No, not yet. Well, actually, in 20, we'll sit still this year. So yes, in 2021, I have donated to Wikipedia. You did because they started their pop-up like last week where you can't even, you can't ignore it. They're like, you give us $2.75.

You, I gotta tell you, I have not been in these Wikipedia streets recently. I feel like I just know everything. Like, normally I use it to win every argument. I haven't been in these streets for like a month. We've been busy. I was looking up something so random. and I was on Wikipedia and they were like, pay us and I'm like, say less.

I pay them. Yeah. Oh, always. Okay, so when was that time you donated? Yesterday. Okay. No, it's like, they do it at the end of the year. They really, like, they know how to get you.

They're like, do not scroll past this. If you're using this, you owe us 275. If they put it over the personal relationship section of Wikipedia, which is where I go directly to the personal life, I always just have to know who people have been fucking. That's exactly what I use to win most. arguments. If they just blocked that out, I would donate every time. Okay. So that was my one thing. I have a serious confession. I just want to get out of the way.

I am no longer hate watching Emily and Paris. I like it for real. And I don't know what happened. It happened midway through season two. And I was like, I like it for real. Listen, nothing's changed. The acting's bad. The writings. I mean, it's so fashion in the way I don't know. I think I just leaned in. Like, I was talking about with Sally, who is something that we work with. And she was like, the writing is just so blunt. There's no nuance. And I'm like, right, it's so unrealistic.

These things happen so quickly. There's no setup for anything. But I kind of started to appreciate it. Like, you're like, this would never happen in real life. No one would ever wear this in real life. No, whatever say this. This would never happen. All these characters wouldn't be connected in real life.

And again, like, whatever. I think Lily Collins is like a fun watch. I think she's not the best actress in the world. And I don't want that show to win Emmys. Don't get it twisted. I was so, I was so insulted that it was like up for Emmys. And they kind of found out they like brought all the Emmy people to Paris.

Like, whatever. I just leaned in and I like embrace the cheesiness. And her outfits are ridiculous. But like, you just started to be like, fuck it. This costume design is fun. And all the guys are so hot. This new character season two, this guy, Alfie is just the biggest smoke on earth.

And I just was like, I fucking love this show. Okay, I'm glad that you finally came to the table with a real confession because I confessed of fucking an anti-vaxxer last week. Oh my God. But I just, I finished it and I was like, I missed it, which you know, that's how I know I really like a show. And then people are, I don't think this is going to happen,

but people are speculating that Kim Cotrol might come on Emily and Pear. I saw that, which would just make everybody's world. Also, and I almost feel like how terrible and just like that is is making me appreciate other shows. It's like when you break up with a shitty X and you date, someone worse and you miss your shitty ex. Has a perfect analogy. I know. And just so you guys know,

Ashley and I are still hate watching that show. Yeah. And then one last thing, I started sex education. I finally did it. So four episodes in. It's very nice. Yeah,

Christmas is at the Hustletines. I finally got to do it. I didn't get to go last year, which was so sad for me. But it was great. And Matt Hustletines sent me a text that did say the word loving it. And I was like, oh my God, it's happening.

But he said, we all love having you around. Okay. Not the same thing. Not the same thing. at all. But no, I mean, I love it. I love being a part of your family and it's really special and fun. And it was just, it's always just a really wonderful time for me. It was good. It was a little bit smaller. Hopefully next year it will be, we'll be at full capacity at Christmas. But we did do the appetizer contest. And let's just say it. You did beat Stephanie. I did beat Stephanie.

Neither of you won, which Matt won, which was, I feel like Matt continues to get insulted that everyone was so surprised. But he did win. I mean, The seafood usually wins. That's the trick. Shrimp has won the last three years. And I did think I was going to do a shrimp thing, but I was running late and I conceptualized this thing on my way down. I was like, that'll be quick, easy.

I knew it was a mistake. I knew I should have gone shrimp. If you guys are new here, my family does an appetizer contest every Christmas Eve. And Raina's nemesis is my sister-in-law. Who couldn't be more wonderful. She's the sweetest human on Earth. But Raina's been trying to beat her all these years.

Have you beat her before? This is the first time you actually beat her. I think so the very first year, Stephanie took a crescent roll and like rolled it into a Christmas tree, which was beautiful. She definitely beat me that year. I made a corn and bacon and scallion dip, which was good. But I didn't even know until I wrapped doing this. I was last minute.

The next year, oh, I made meatball pull apart sliders. I lost a buck who made shrimp saviche. Right. I lost the year before that to your brother who made shrimp toast. And then I lost this year to your brother who made fried shrimp. Shrimp is the answer. Did he win with the shrimp toast? Well, one year we had to let him win because he was proposing.

And I think that was. But then my dad, he had these dumplings, vegetable dumplings. And I think that he would have won had he used the chili oil that you had given him for Christmas, which he just forgot. Like you would give him to him like an hour prior. I think with that chili oil might have put him over the top. I think you're right. I forgot. No, sorry.

He tied for second. He tied with me for second place. So Stephanie got third. Raina and my dad tied. And Matt won. I made a broccoli and cheese soup themed appetizer. I just, like, mixed a bunch of literally broccoli cheddar cheese, broccoli condensed Campbell soup.

I just mixed it up together. And then I rolled it into like crescent rolls and shaped it. Oh, my God. It was so good. It didn't totally stay in wreath form. It was like busting at the seams, but it was like so good. I needed more crescent roll and I needed a little less liquid in the stuff. Oh, it was like phenomenal.

And I don't know, at this point, we've had New Year's. Hopefully that was fine. Who knows? It's going to be great. I just, is New Year's, you know, how many times I've Googled is New Year's canceled this week? It's a weird time. Like, I am dying over the memes. Like, I reposted this guy and he said, CDC in 2020 wear masks, CDC in 2021, get vaccinated, CDC in 2022.

It is what it is. It is what it is. I feel like they're like, it's. whatever. I don't know. Get boosted. Hopefully, if you haven't, you can and you will. Everybody I know that's gotten it has made a full recovery, which is good.

But it seems like if you get the mystery, you're a little better. Yeah, get vaccine, get boosted, wear masks when you're supposed to. Have sex doggie style. Live your life. Okay. We'll speak to sex. That's my goal for the year. That's it.

We both made resolutions. Ashley's just said sex. It's just, I've told you this. I am trying to have. have more sex. Like, it's what I want to work on my sexual energy. Okay, maybe this is something like I actually put into action some of these things of this like sexual energy I'm trying to work on. I'm not non-sexual. I mean, you can ask that. It's not that. It's just sometimes I feel like I'm not in the right mode before dates or before run-ins with people. And like, I feel like there's,

I'm just working on like getting in that mode. And we are also launching a new company this year. That's my other really, that's it. That's really like, you know, Rain and I talk about not really doing resolutions and just kind of living your best life and improving yourself at all times all around the year. But like that's the main thing that's happening this year. We're launching this new company and it should be in Q1

and it aligns with the sex stuff. So, I mean, we're working on this for so long. We've been, you know, running two companies at this point and we can't wait to reveal it to you guys. And it's just big, big sex energy in 2022 for me. That's like, I mean, I have other goals too. Have you thought about, like steps that you want to take.

Like, and I know it sounds like cheesy, but like, I want to like touch more. I want to make eye contact longer. I want to like. Yeah. I mean, again, like I don't, this could be stuff we continue to talk about throughout the year. Ashley's sex life. And maybe like put it into play. I mean, this isn't a, I mean, this isn't like, I don't know how to flirt. I don't know how to fuck somebody. I think I've just been in my head. It hasn't been like my priority.

I mean, we've been in a pandemic also. And I want to put myself out there a little bit more. You know. I love the goal. I think it's great. I mean, you always say that, like, I lead with sex a lot more than you do, and there's, like, pros and cons to that, too.

I think that, like, I do it a little... I mean, I'm proud of who I am. I love who I am. But, you know, I think it can cause you to write you off a little too much if you do it too soon. So, like, it is always, like, a balance of, like, am I giving too much?

Are you not enough? But I've seen you with guys that you like, and you are, like, flirtatious. Yeah, I just, I feel like... I think about this thing that Maria said, someone that she was like, I'm a lawyer and I have a date tonight, and Maria was like,

change, wash the lawyer off of you, and masturbate and go on the date. And I feel like it's something about getting into like date mode. Like the last like date I went on, I was rushing. I had to get ready really quick. I was stressed. I was flustered. I was late. Like that's not how you want to start a date. You know what I mean? Like I almost think it's like some sort of ritual thing of like before a date, before you meet up with somebody and like just getting in the right mindset. Again, because like flustered, been rushing, had to get an Uber. Now you're late. Is not it. Well, you, So we did, one of my favorite episodes of the year, and really of all the time was Ndra Toab's Boundaries episode.

And I do not struggle this at all. And you said that, like, we talk about work boundaries. It never comes up for me. Like, you know, I'll shut it down and I'm just, like, out on work. You have a harder time being like, I'm done for the day because, like, you just have this list in your head and you're like, I don't want to stop. I mean, that's why your great business partner. I love working with you. You're amazing.

You know, Ashley will send me ideas for the business at midnight, you know? And I think it's harder for you to draw the boundary and separate from work. And if you got a little better at that, like you said, like wash the business. the CEO off you. The CEO. Ooh, that was sexy. And I'm doing better already. I feel like, I don't know.

I don't think I took my health for granted before. I always just was like, I'm super duper healthy. And like that's what it is. And like I can run myself ragged and still never get sick and go, go, go and not sleep enough and do this and do that. And I just feel like it caught up with me. I mean, it's an age thing, but it caught up with me in 2021. And I was sick more.

And I got, I ended the year getting COVID. And I am already like, as of this. week, the week between Christmas and New Year's. It feels like something has shifted in me where I'm like, I'm giving myself a bedtime. I'm waking up or I'm going to bed earlier, waking up earlier, starting the day not looking at my phone. Like embracing the quietness, having a cup of coffee and then like taking a Zul for a walk before I ever even look at my phone or open my computer.

And I just think like this self-care is really going to be a huge goal for me. It's always a goal, I think, of everybody. Like take care of yourself. but I'm really like striving, trying to make strides. I'm proud of you. I mean, I know it's like a constant on your mind. So also, like, I notice that you don't text me when you start clicking your hello fresh and then you get your mail.

I'm like, it's hard for me, like, especially when I see a text come in from you or Ashley who we work with or Bella. I just, I always want to check it immediately. And it's important for me. I mean, I do this, but to put my phone in the other room and spend like an hour and I stare at a phone because my eyes feel like they're going to bleed. And I just, it's, I want to respond because I'm like, other people are working, I should respect that.

But it's also important to respect yourself. So yeah, I noticed that with you. You like cook and you don't respond to me for like an hour and you don't share anything funny for an hour. And I think that's good. I think it's important to like give yourself a break. All right, guys. We are really excited to welcome our guest today.

She is a licensed therapist who specializes at a modern, relatable approach to therapy in a wide range of topics from substance abuse to eating disorders, trauma and more. She is the founder of the Therapy for Women's Center, which offers workshops and they will link you with therapists all over the country. She is the author of the brand new book, Not Drinking Tonight, which we're going to talk about today.

Please welcome to the show, Amanda White. Thank you guys so much for having me. I'm so excited. Thank you for being here from your bedroom. It's quarantine times. I tried to tilt the camera to not give that away, but I was too disheveled. Well, we wanted to record with you in person. We were so excited you were actually going to come here from Philly.

And then, of course, it was like a yada. We're not doing that. Yeah. But we are so excited to have you. And Ashley and I both read your book last night and the start of the new year. And we always, we talked about not drinking at the start of last year as well. I think a lot of people do dry January. But I want you to tell your story.

But something that really stuck out to me about your story in general is just that you talk about how there's not this rock bottom moment for you. You tried moderating your drinking. So we're excited to kind of talk to you about that. and what that looks like for your life, your book and everything. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, the funny thing is, I feel like to a lot of people, when I stopped drinking, people didn't think I should stop drinking.

Often, actually, the response when I told people that I wanted to quit drinking where I was was like, why? You don't have a problem. Are you sure? Like, even when I told my parents, they were like, maybe you're being dramatic. Maybe you should just try moderating. So, yeah, it didn't really.

look like I had a problem. And that's, I think, one of the interesting things that's happening in our culture, which is really cool, is this kind of sober curiosity. It doesn't need to look a specific way kind of movement. Yeah. Do you want to share with us? Absolutely. Your story? Yeah. Yeah. So I stopped drinking seven years ago. Essentially, the moment for me, and I talk about this in my book is it wasn't necessarily my worst bottom, my worst moment. But it was Labor Day seven years ago. And I had been out drinking. And it was, I actually, the big moment for me was that I was a yoga teacher at the time. And I woke up at 6 a.m. to teach me a. And I was still drunk. And that was like, not okay in my book. And, you know, it's kind of funny because I tell that story. And some people are like, whoa, that was really dramatic. And some people are like, yeah, you know, I've done stupid things like that before.

But yeah, it just, my drinking just kind of kept escalating throughout college, throughout after college. And I really noticed that I was using alcohol as a coping mechanism to deal with other things that were going on in my life. Like I struggled with an eating disorder. And every time I kind of tried to make progress in recovering from my eating disorder, I kept relapsing and drinking too much. And I kept struggling with, I would tell myself, I'm going to drink glass, or I'm not going to, you know, hook up with this person, or I'm going to try to change and do these things.

And I kept realizing that my goals were changing to fit with drinking versus the other way around. Yeah. And I love what you said in the book of like, every time I drink something bad doesn't happen, but every time something bad happens is because I was drinking. And that like really hit me hard. I've had a long, complicated history with alcohol. I feel like my, right now I'm in like, for years now, it's really healthy moderation's great for me. I don't like being drunk.

But that was even something my mom said to me. It was like, are you realizing that every, that these bad things happen? Like I flew home one time, got super drunk, lost my license. I couldn't get back on the plane, you know, like I've had DUIs. I've talked about it before, but just kind of like, you know, I've had to do a lot of reflection. But like, when you take a step back and realize bad things are happening, what's the common denominator?

Absolutely. Amanda, can I ask you when you were going through all this? And this is probably in the book as well, but were you a therapist currently when you decided to get sober? I was in school to become a therapist. So it was an interesting place where I wasn't one yet. So I probably could have ignored it for longer because I didn't feel that responsibility yet.

But really the moment for me too was, I could see where it was going. And maybe I could have moderated. Maybe I could have not continued to see it get worse, right? But being a therapist was so important to me that I was like, I don't want to risk this. Yeah. Do you say a lot in your book.

Like if you're reading this, you probably are wanting to stop drinking or you're interested or you want to know more. So we can't encourage you guys to read the book enough. We're not going to go through the whole book today. But I guess if you, what do you see the most of when people are coming to you when they're like, I don't think I'm an alcoholic, but what are the reasons why people are drinking? Like, what are some common themes that you see the most? Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I mean, I think what's crazy too is right this year, the past two years, people have been drinking a lot

more just with the pandemic. So I've seen a big shift in my practice of people realizing that maybe they're drinking too much just because they're bored, because they've been lonely this year, they've been isolated. But a big theme is that idea, like you said, you know, of I don't know if I'm an alcoholic, but I also don't like where this is heading. And my whole goal of kind of writing this book is there needs to be more open conversations about this.

Because right now it's like you're an alcoholic and you should never drink and you obviously have a problem. Or you're not an alcoholic and you should drink. And there's something wrong with you if you don't drink. Uh-huh. And something that like really, stuck out to me was this bargaining phase that you talk about on your way to deciding, am I an alcoholic? Do I need to find moderation? You talked about saying to yourself,

okay, I'm never going to take shots or I'm only going to take shots. Only going to take shots. Which really made me laugh out loud. You talked about, which I've done before also, which is like, I'm not going to drink at home. I'm not going to drink by myself. It's only going to be wine. It's only going to be liquor. And I did that too with myself where I really, just like Ashley, I missed a work obligation. I was supposed to the airport, I just didn't go. I woke up in my house one day. I had thrown a party that I'd spent thousands of dollars on. I didn't remember it. Like, I woke up and I was just like, this is not how I want to be. So for me, I, whatever, I'll talk about it later, how I decided

to get into moderation. But it resonated with me where you were like, there was a hundred versions of me being like, moderation will work. Let me try that. And like, even that for you, you realized, like, was not a path to anywhere. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it is a thing that a lot of us go through, whether you want to completely stop drinking, whether you just want to cut back or whatever, you know, we do kind of crazy things sometimes to try to, I really thought in my insanity that if I measured the shots that I took, which meant only taking shots that that would make a difference. Yeah, I mean, and we see so many people, I think this is a lot of people in comedy and just in life, but especially it feels like in comedy, people that are not drinking.

because of like Nikki, like her story, for example, or our friend Andrew Colin, like it's not that they, you know, are going to have one drink in spiral and like get back. I don't think that they would qualify as alcoholics. They just, what you say in your book, their life is better without it. And they could have a drink here and there,

but they just don't want to. And I use them as an example, but we know so many other people like that that are like, yeah, I don't really drink. I'm not an addicts. I could have a drink right now and I wouldn't have to have 10 more or, you know, nothing bad would happen.

I've gone so long and it's just not, I'm not interested in it. And that's fascinating to me because like you said, we grew up like you are, you are, you know. And so I think it's encouraging to see people living that type of life. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, I also say kind of like for me, drinking was like Russian roulette where a lot of times it was fine, but those times where it weren't, like it wasn't fine. It went completely against my values and it just wasn't worth it. So maybe you know, people ask me sometimes like, are you ever going to drink again? Would you moderate? And to me, it's just not worth it because I've created my life where I don't miss drinking anymore. So that's kind of the point of my book too is whether you choose to moderate or not, creating a life that, you know, you don't need to escape and that works for you so you don't even think about it.

So you do this, you have this chapter, I've heard your book about defining your relationship with alcohol. So like how do you have somebody do that? Because like for somebody like me and Ashley, like both of us sort of feel the same way. We're like, we don't need to get all fucked up. We don't love ourselves like that anyways. We have a good time without it. But we actually can drink in moderation. We just don't love to be all drunk.

How do you help people to sort of like figure out what their relationship with alcohol is? So one of the biggest things I recommend is thinking about the costs and the payoffs of drinking. And some people will say to me, well, there are no benefits to drinking. And I disagree. For a lot of people, there's a reason we drank. It can feel like you're a part of something. If you don't have a, you know, if you just moderate and it works for you, it might just be something that you do occasionally like you were saying,

Raina, where it's just, you know, something that you do, but you don't get drunk. So I really think that it's really helpful to think about the costs and the payoffs and look at it, honestly, of what is alcohol bringing to my life and what is alcohol taking away from my life and then making choices based on that is a good place to start. I like that. Like what does it take away for my life? We talked at length last year about a book called by Alan Carr. Yeah.

About how to stop drinking. He talks about all the things you sort of gain in your life when you get rid of alcohol. And that really spoke to me a lot too. And these like gains and losses, I think, are hard to struggle with. The thing that I guess spoke to me the most is like, it's not good for your brain.

It's not good for your body. No matter what anybody tells you. Yeah. Because I have found only recently that one drink really does kind of help me perform a little bit better. I get out of my head a little bit. It's just, it's one. You know, it's like when I started doing comedy and performing, I was always sober. So I kind of went backwards where like I realize I'm actually a little better, a little loose.

So like I find benefit to it. I'm a social drinker. That's always why I've drank. I just, I love to like stay out and keep the party going. And but I personally can't deny the fact that it's not good for your brain. You know, it's more about that that's my whole. career depends on it. So I think that I love that you spoke to this like, nobody's telling you this. I mean, we hear about how bad drugs are in school, but like, no one's really talking about

there is actually no benefit. You can read all the articles you want. I'm like, one glass of red wine a day. It's heart healthy. It's like, listen, it's just not. Yeah. So that's like a sobering for, you know, no pun intended look at like the effects take anything. personal life, social life out of it, just your body and your brain. Yeah, absolutely. And I think especially with all of us struggling a lot more with anxiety the past two years. I mean, alcohol is one of the worst things for anxiety because chemically, your body wants, and people don't know that because they think, oh, well, alcohol is a depressant. But your body wants to be in homeostasis. So when you take a depressant, your body

produces chemicals and hormones to bring you back to neutral. And those hormones are like anxiety, cortisol producing hormones, the alcohol leaves your body, and the anxiety is what's left. I mean, it gives me, I don't have anxiety until I'm hung over. It's a true thing. Like, it happens, you know, a couple times a year I have that terrible hangover. And I'm like really sad and like really fragile and just have to kind of like curl up in the fetal position. I mean, it's rare. But it's like, you know, my mom would tell me that when I was drinking too much when I was like in college, early 20s. Like, this is why you don't, this is why you're sad. This is why you're. This is why you're, saying you're depressed and you're not happy.

And I would be like, shut up, mom. I never thought to Google it. You know what I mean? Like, I was just in denial. But it's like, it's really so true. And Raina doesn't get as low as I do. But that's like I, that's one reason why I just moderate. I don't want it.

I don't want to feel like that. Like, who's like, it's just not really. I mean, listen, a couple times year it is worth it. But it's just for the, for the most part, it's like that's my cost and benefit of not getting drunk. Yeah. It doesn't happen to me as much as it happens to you. But I have had so many conversations with friends,

especially in the last year, because I think people are drinking more, that are so hung over and they're depressed. And I've had to be like, this is not real. This is your brain being stripped of dopamine and serotonin. This will be fine tomorrow. Like I have to tell myself that too when I feel all depressed.

And we went after our Chicago theater show until 3 o'clock in the morning. And next day, I'd be like, this isn't real. It's going to be fine in a few hours. But that was one of those worth it nights. That's probably what I got COVID. I mean, listen. It's all worth it. Can we talk about how you quit? Yeah, absolutely. So for me, I mean, I did,

because seven years ago, like there weren't really books that existed on just like moderating. There weren't really, you know, I was told that I was an alcoholic and I went to AA for a couple years and that was how I got sober because I always felt like I wasn't and like I didn't quite fit that, but I also felt like I didn't really have any other options. So it was just what I did for the first few years until I had enough space from it that there was, you know, Instagram community started becoming more of a thing. I saw other types of people talking about being sober who didn't call themselves alcoholics. So in the beginning, it was really hard. And I think part of what made it hard was we, you know, when you say you're going to stop drinking,

you think about your life. Like the first thing I remember thinking when I said I was going to stop drinking was, what am I going to do on my wedding? Right. I wasn't engaged. I wasn't in a relationship. No, no, no. Yeah. But that's often what we first go to. And that's why I do think it's really important to, if you are someone who's exploring your relationship with alcohol, whether it's cutting back or moderating,

trying to take it one day, one month, one week at a time. Because, I mean, when I got married a couple years ago and it was absolutely the last thing on my mind, I've gone through much harder things. But it's also like, what am I going to do at my wedding? But it's like, but also I don't want to be drunk at my wedding and something. yeah. Like, do you have that self-talk to? Absolutely.

I mean, I was so, I mean, I feel like my wedding was, I was so present during it. Yes. I didn't drink, which was so amazing. And I was so self-expressed and had so much fun that I probably looked super drunk because I was just, you know, like my fullest expression, which was amazing. You know, I had a bachelor at party that I was sober for and some of my friends drank and some didn't. But we went like clubbing.

Like, it was so fun. So I also think normalizing that. you can go out and have fun and be, you know, not drink too. Okay, so I love that you said that. And I think that people will relate to this notion of like the minute you decide I'm not going to drink anymore, where you're like, oh my God, what does my social life look like? And I think for me, the hardest, the best exercise for me when I was like, I got a cut back was can I spend a whole night with friends who are drinking at a bar and not drink?

And can I enjoy that? And I think a lot of people are like, I have social anxiety. This lubricates it for me. I don't know how to talk to a guy to date without alcohol. Like, how does this look? And for me, it was just going out a few. times totally sober for me to be like, oh, I don't need to like get so drunk. I enjoy myself sober. I enjoy other people when I'm sober. And I think that if you just do it, like the hardest thing is

trying it once. I'm not sober. So I'm not saying I do this long term. But it was at least for me, like realizing this is still so much fun without alcohol. Absolutely. And I love that you did that right now. And that probably has made it easier to moderate because I think people don't ever learn the skill of doing it. And it is kind of a skill. Most of us start. drinking in high school or college and we never go on a date without drinking or we don't go, you know, to a party or something without alcohol. And, you know, with anxiety in general, avoidance makes anxiety worse. And if we can actually take steps to lean into what scares us, it builds a lot of confidence feeling like you can do that. And then you have more choice.

Like I talk a lot in the book about how if we want real freedom in choosing alcohol or not, we need to be able to have some skills where we can choose to not drink. I mean, I think that's just the, this paralyzing fear of my social life is over. It's like, we have, Brandon and I hang out with so many people that don't drink and they will hang out all night. They'll stay out later than us. I mean, it doesn't, you know, and then they're not sloppy. And it's just kind of, I mean, I've just gotten into the point in my life where I hate the

feeling of being drunk. I hate the feeling of losing control where I used to love to be drunk. I'd be like, let's get fucking drunk. Like, you know, in college it was like, we better black out before we go out. You know, it was just like, and now I'm like, if I feel it even a setting in a little bit, I'm like water for the rest of the night.

And then you start to hate being around people that are drunk because you're like, oh my God, they're slurrying, they're sloppy. Like, they're getting too emotional. Like, it's just taking a step back and realizing that you can, you have a social life. So many people go out. They go to bars.

I mean, for some people, you know, it might be like triggering. But it doesn't mean your life is. sober. No, I think when you're sober, actually, you're not the problem. Other people are the problem. I didn't have a hard time not drinking. I had a hard time to be on other people drinking. That's what I'm saying. I couldn't stand them. But I think that people are worried that like someone's going to like heckle them or be like, come on, just drink, just drink. Nobody, I just, I feel like if you have friends like that, like, I don't know, my response is like, fuck those people. And that's

a crazy thing to say to somebody to like heckle them into putting anything into their body. But do you have advice for somebody that's just like, yeah, I try to not drink. And all my friends are like what the fuck. Yeah, I mean, I think if your friends are continuously saying that to you, I think there is a deeper conversation to have because there is probably something going on. I mean, I wouldn't recommend necessarily having a deep conversation with those people when they're drunk because they might not remember. And they might not be super receptive to the conversation.

But yeah, I think there's a point where you have conversations and I'm a big fan of kind of you don't have to tell people. I mean, obviously, if you are good friends with someone and they know you, then it's important to have a conversation maybe that you're not drinking anymore so they can stop asking you all the time. But I also believe that if you're someone who's moderating or wants to be able to just not drink sometimes and not be heckled, like you don't have to say that you're sober. You don't have to disclose anything you're not comfortable with. And it is their, it is their issue if they're trying to heckle you. Absolutely. That's not you. Yeah.

It's a crazy thing. I feel like that's just other people's insecurity. It's just. Yes, they feel like you're judging them for drinking. And it's like, I'm not judging you. I think it's great. You want to get drunk. Good for you.

You can. You know, I don't have to put something in my body because you want me to. Exactly. And those people are probably just like projecting onto you. Totally. Yeah. You know, that's where that comes from a lot of times is they might be judgmental. So they think that you're judging them even if you're not paying attention.

Right. like you literally don't care. So did you feel like, I mean, you were saying that you were in, and you went to AA for a couple years. Like, when did you feel that point

of like my life is better without it? Was it soon? Or did you mourn the loss a little? I absolutely mourned the loss. I think it's different for everyone. For me, it was hard. I mean, I was 24 when I stopped drinking. So I felt very like,

it was a huge part of my identity. I like, cried myself on being crazy and super fun. and, you know, being ridiculous when I went out. So it was a hard adjustment and I did lose some friends, not even because they weren't supportive, but I realized I didn't have anything in common with them.

Like I would try to hang out with them sober and we had like nothing to talk about, which was sad, but it was also freeing. Like I feel like a lot of my friendships became so much more deep because you have to have something like, you know, we all have those drinking friends sometimes. that you don't really have a ton in common with during the day. I think it's interesting to realize like these friendships are based on alcohol. And, you know, I think that we all have different friends for different reasons.

I have party friends. I have like serious, you know, pick me up from the hospital friends. But, you know, I think you want to surround yourself with a friend group. At the end of the day, none of them need to be party friends, that you do have like a deeper relationship with people. And I think it's interesting to realize like, oh, so many of these relationships are just based on alcohol. Yeah, I mean, we did episode recently,

friendship, red flags. And we said that one of them is if you always have to be drunk, like I don't have someone in my life that I would call a friend that we don't, we can't hang out sober. Like if you just want to get coffee with somebody and you sit down, you're like, this is weird. You know, maybe it's time to re-evaluate the friendship a little bit. Yeah. And that way I do think like that is kind of the benefit of it does kind of distill down what you might be holding on to in your life that isn't serving you. I mean, that's certainly how I felt where it was like the morning process that I went through and it was definitely an identity shift. But it allowed me to keep going because I was noticing all these benefits of I was way more

authentic. I had deeper connections with people around me. I know we're going to get into dating, but even like dating, you know, it was really scary, but I can tell you like I can, I knew if someone was a fit or not pretty quick to a date when you're sober. Well, let's talk about dating. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about dating when you're sober and disclosing to somebody that you're sober and activities. And then I'm excited to talk about dating a sober person. So, um, but talks us about dating when you were at 24 dating when you're sober is like pretty crazy. Yeah, it was definitely hard at first. And I, I tried to, you know, I did some things that I definitely don't recommend. Like, I would lie and not say anything. And I would

go to the bar early and say like, make me something that looks like a drink. Which I don't recommend if you're someone who's sober because I got into some awkward situations where then I would have to like lie. I mean, my biggest recommendation with dating especially is and social in general is you don't have to say that you're not drinking or you don't drink, but also don't lie and don't give an excuse because it can feel so good sometimes to give an excuse like I'm getting up early tomorrow or I have to be the DD or I'm moving, whatever. And it is just why. how people will come out of the woodwork to solve your problem called you're not drinking and you want to drink. Like they will offer to give you an, you know, they'll pay for your Uber.

They'll offer you get up in the morning and move you. That's so true. You're right. That is so funny. You like try to give an excuse and they're like, I'll break you down until you're forced to tell the truth. Right. It's crazy. So that's one of, you know, that's one thing I think for sure when you're dating. But you always, also don't have to, you know, some people, I think it's really cool with Bumble now I've heard. I'm not on Bumble anymore because I'm married, but I've heard that they have an option on Bumble now where you can say that you're sober, you don't drink. Hinch has it. Or hinge, maybe.

I mean, I think most of them, there's a little icon. It's, you know, there's drugs, smoking, drinking. Yeah. And I think it's an incredible thing that they have. And it's like, I don't, I think every dating app should have it. They might, I don't know. But anyway, keep going. Yeah.

So I think like whether you choose to do that is, you know, up to you or not. I experimented for sure with sometimes I would tell people. Sometimes I wrote it on a profile. Sometimes I didn't. I mean, what I realized was I got less dates for sure, especially when I was younger. But I had deeper connections because someone has to be willing to like have a real authentic conversation with you if they know that you're not going to be drunk on a date with them. I mean, somebody might decide to not go on a date with you also.

You know, somebody was just like, I want to drink me by. and a fuck buddy, they might not go out with you. And like, good for you. You've got to weed those people out. Absolutely. So Amanda, would you be okay with them drinking or like, what did you, were you looking for someone that didn't drink? And then I'm going to throw another question in the mix. I want to hear about your, your husband. Yeah. So my husband does drink. And I'm fine with people drinking. Not everyone I think is, but most people that I know are totally fine with someone else drinking. Because sobriety for most people isn't about other people. It's really about themselves and their own relationship with alcohol. So yeah, I am a huge believer in, you know, people who are

sober and not sober can date. And I know Raina has experience with that too. But I had been sober for two years by the time I met him. But we have times where, you know, I'll be like, can you not drink tonight so that we can be more present with each other and things like that. But it's kind of like anything else that, you know, no relationship's perfect. You have to navigate differences no matter what. that's such a simple but profound thing to say. It's like there's going to be issues, but whatever. Were most of your dates at bars, like those two years where you were dating around, were they at bars? Or did you like, are you a big proponent of finding other stuff to do that isn't alcohol-related? For me, it's a lot about the atmosphere of the bar. You know, I'm not really a big fan of going to like a dive bar or something like that.

But I did go to dates on bars. I would also sometimes say like, let's go get ice cream or let's go get coffee or do things like that also. kind of depended on the date. And I think it depends on the person. But if you're not bothered by going to a bar, I mean, what's really cool, I know in New York and in Philly, there's also been such a cool resurgence of like, there's like mocktails at bars now. And there's a lot more alcohol-free options. So I think that that's a really great thing to do on a date also. And how many of us have been like three dates with somebody and you're like, do I have a connection with that or was I drunk all three those times? You know? Yeah. I dated a guy that I realized I, this is so many years ago, but he was like tall and cute, oh, two shirt

Trent, Raina. Um, we've talked to all this podcast. He had two shirts. They called him two shirt Trent. But I realized, and this was still when I was just really getting drunk a lot, but I realized, like, I am getting extra drunk with him because I don't like him. And I just want to because he's tall and cute. He lives in my apartment complex and the sex is okay.

But I was like, Ashley, I mean, like, lost my keys. my entire house keys, like, because of a night out with him. Like, I had to, like, walk it back and be like, I can't date somebody that I'm pre-gaming to be around them. You know, like, this is not. It's a good sign. It might not be a good match, whether it's a date or a friendship, I think, too. Yeah, you kind of pre-game for the date.

That is so funny. Well, I want to just, like, give credit from the other side of, like, dating somebody who was sober that, like, it just wasn't a thing for me. If you would ask me, like, five years ago, definitely 10. years ago, would I want to date a sober person? My answer probably would have been no. And that's fine, too. Like, I think it's fine if you don't want to date a sober person. Like, if a lot of your activities revolve around alcohol, that's totally fine. It was like, I was with this person for eight months. It just, like, really wasn't a thing for me. And I think you have to ask yourself a bunch of questions,

like, right off the bat, why is this person sober? What are they sober from? What is the sobriety looked like for them? Like, are they dealing with the trauma? Are they in therapy? How long? If there is any trauma. There's not always trauma. It's just, you know, someone's a choice regardless. Yeah. For him, you know, it wasn't, I mean, we all have trauma and issues, but like he had been to therapy. He was in AA. He's been sober for five years. You know, I felt like I was with a person that was dealing with the issues in their life.

And that made it easier for me. He also told me immediately. So, like, was super honest about it right off the bat. And like, before we even met, we met doing a podcast, actually. But when we were still in the texting phase, he told me right away. was sober. So I had the information. He was like super cool and like, he didn't make it a thing. He was like, oh, I don't drink or do drugs and sober. And I think the honesty was really great for me. And then I could, I could make a decision on my own. And then really it just, it wasn't a thing. And there were a lot of really great things about dating a sober person personally. The sex was better.

I never was fucking a person that like couldn't get it up, couldn't keep it up. Like the sex was always good. I always felt like he was present with me. And I felt like dates had to, always be a little more creative. Like, our go-to was never going to be to go sit at a bar. I mean, he didn't care if I drank. He sat around me and Ashley and we drank. But it was always like, let's find an art installation or museum or some kind of like cool thing to do. And it like pushed my ability to like find activities. And so I liked all that stuff. I mean, it was a little embarrassing that like there were some experiences that he got to see sober and I don't remember. But like in general, I think that like if you meet somebody that's like dealing with,

with their shit and they fit into your lifestyle that it's just like not a big deal. It was never a big deal for me. It was never a thing. So I just want to like give credit to people that are like, oh my God, is anybody you want to date me? Yeah, absolutely. You're a really fun person to date. You've control of your emotions. I feel like people fight all the time when they're drunk. That never happened for us. I think there's all kinds of crying and emotional just craziness that happens when two people are hammered. That never once happened. I just, it was nice, honestly. I enjoyed it. I would rather. date a sober person than a person that was drunk all the time. I won't date somebody that is just drunk all the time. If I feel like someone's just drinks too much, parties too much, it's like a

huge turnoff to me. Also like at my age, like that was just felt like a young, it's kind of a younger habit to be like, we're going out and we're getting bottles every night of the week. Like I'd so much prefer the opposite end of the spectrum. I mean, I dated someone that was needed to stop drinking ultimately like all of our problems stem from alcohol and it kind of boiled down to like, are you going to consider this or are we going to break up? I mean, we broke up for other reasons too, but it was someone that their life would be so much better without alcohol. You know, that's the question you say to ask yourself outright. I feel like that's the takeaway. It's like, look at your life without it because all the negativity is coming from it. Yeah. So I think it's becoming less and less of a thing,

too. I think so many things are just less of a thing in 2020, 2022 now, I guess, you know, alcohol preference, not drinking, sexual preference. Like everything's just like, yeah, whatever, who cares. Live your truth, whatever that may be. Absolutely. And I feel like, too, it's like if we're looking at what is attractive, I feel like these days, it's like, yeah, like going to therapy, dealing with your shit. Like being honest with yourself and other people is like, it's a really attractive

quality if you're looking to date someone. Oh, absolutely. And I'm just such a believer too. And like if we're looking to love ourselves, if we're looking to develop confidence, it has to come from like living a life that's in alignment with your value. Like it's really hard to live a life that you feel comfortable and confident in. If you wake up like even only a couple times a week and you feel horrible about all the things you did and you're going through your phone and trying to apologize and cleaning up this whole huge mess,

you know, it just really impacts your self-esteem. Yes, that anxiety loop in your brain on top of everything else you have to do in a day, like who wants to deal with that? And I mean, it's not a hot take. I'm just like, I'm better at my job. I'm a better friend. I'm a better everything when I'm not hungover and all like hazy. from the alcohol. What a gift. Just like, be sober. But also, there's people that drink their

faces off every night and they're great partners, great friends. They excel at their job. And that's just what it is. We're all built differently. We're all wired differently. They don't get to hangover depression. Like, God bless them. You know, like, because this episode is what's going to work best for your life. It's not a everyone's stop drinking episode. But listen, it is bad for you. And that's comes from some of the drinks. It's bad for your skin, and this is also coming from somebody who drinks. Look at J-Lo. Why does J-Lo look like that?

Why does some of these celebrities look like that? I mean, listen. When I got sober, right? Like, I didn't know anyone who didn't drink. So I used to Google sober celebrities, and I used to keep a list in my pocket. That is so funny. I found out Blake lively was sober, and I was like, oh, my God. God, damn it.

I can do it. that she's so hot. Of course she is. I have a question for you about like your self-talk and like the road through sobriety. I mean, because I've just never, listen, I don't lean on alcohol on bad days, but there are some days you get home and you're like, I need a fucking drink. Like I just, I need to de-stress. So like I'm sure in the last years for you, there's been days where you're just like,

I can't do this. Everything is wrong. Everything is bad. Like I just need. I don't need a hundred drinks. I need one drink. I can do one drink. So like what is your self-talk ban or what was it like in the beginning when like you felt like that?

I think a lot of times we have that thought of I really need a drink because we've been like culturally conditioned also to want a drink at the end of the day or want a drink in response to stress. If we look at movies and TV, it's like wild when you start to pay attention, how much the characters rely on alcohol a lot of times to deal with stress. So I think one thing to just keep in mind is that sometimes you don't actually want a drink. What you want is to relieve your stress. You want to forget about what happened during the day. Like you want a moment where you sit down and you do a ritual and you sip something and you kind of end the day.

So I'm a really big believer and you can also create, you know, rituals or ways to de-stress that don't involve alcohol and actually will be more effective in dealing with your stress than having a drink. Okay. Yeah. I mean, and that's something I think that's so important to reflect on why you drink. I have never been a person who wants to numb my pain. If I'm feeling sad or low, I do not drink. I'm like, it's just going to make it worse.

And I feel like that is completely true. Yeah. So maybe super stressed, work stress. Yeah. But that's not like emotional pain. And so I've never used it in that way. I'm not a get drunk at home type of. person, but it was bad things were happening when I was socially binge drinking. So there's that

too. But to me, I obviously say this without judgment. Like I feel like if you really take a step back and you're like, I am drinking to not feel things. Think about working through that in a different way. And I mean, everybody, I'm just, I'm just like, I got to go to brain and nose. Like if I'm in a dark place, I'm like, I got to go to yoga. And it's so corny to say. But I got to get on the Peloton. Like that didn't happen until I was like late in my 20s where exercise became. And I'm just like, the thing to like get out of a funk or or something like that because I think I know myself to the point where like, yeah, getting drunk tonight might make it better for a minute, but like tomorrow's going to be like really dark. Like not going to be okay. So I don't know. I don't know that people's

answers. I mean, maybe you start smoking. I'm kidding. But maybe you're California sober. I don't know. Actually, I think you also bring up like a good point, which is that like it's this temporary band-aid on what you're feeling. So, like, if you actually stay sober and you address what you're feeling, go to a workout class, you make your body feel better, you get those good chemicals, whatever, yeah. Get on the phone with rent. I take, like, a crazy amount of walks.

I walk in the city, like a crazy amount. It just, it makes me feel better when I, like, don't look at my phone. I take a walk. It's also not a hot take. I say this on the show all the time. Open up your computer. Open a word doc. Just type it away.

Like, whatever you're feeling, like, address it with other things. Because, like, alcohol, it's not a real stress reliever. It is a temporary stress reliever. the stress is going to come back, you know, like once you're sober. Exactly. That's why I wanted to ask you, because I think that it is most people's natural inclination to be like, I'm not doing a shit anymore. I'm going to have a drink.

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, one thing to know, too, is alcohol is a myopic drug. And what that essentially means is that it takes how you're currently feeling and just expands it. And while that can be, you know, if you're in a good mood, it can expand how you're feeling. If you're in a bad mood, it will expand negatively how you're feeling. And it's also why the night can turn really quick. You know, if you hear something or someone says something that you don't like,

and all of a sudden it's like, you know, a flip has switched. A switch has flipped. Sorry. Right? Like it's so quick how it happens. And it's because you don't have a lot of control over it. And you're really at the mercy of whatever that current feeling is in your brain. Oh my God.

It's so true. When that switch flips, oh, my God. I don't you be like, yeah. But do you feel like there's anything we missed? in terms of people who might be sober curious. I think like experimenting and trying it out, you know, people can get, like we said, so black and white about it.

But I think if you're interested in this, try taking a break, try doing a dry January or taking a couple weeks off and seeing how it feels, even if you don't stop drinking completely, it can be a great exercise and an illuminating exercise in seeing how alcohol might be not serving you

or you might be using it as a crutch to deal with other things. And even just assessing those times, like, okay, so maybe I'm not going to give up alcohol, but I'm only going to do it when it is a celebratory, happy, social thing. Again, it can always turn. The switch could flip. But like, I'm sad and I want to drink the pain away. Maybe that's when like experimenting with not doing it in those moments. And like Raina said, taking a walk, making some fancy tea, you know, whatever you decide to do,

to replace it with. But actually a fancy tea for Christmas. She did. And I was like, how am I? how am I going to, I was like, I don't know what the fuck to do with this. And I was like, showed it to my mom. And my mom was like, you got to get a teapot. No, I ordered it last night, right?

I got one on the Amazon. You put all the little stuff in the teapot. It boils the water around it. But that might be like what you do instead of pouring a glass of wine. You get your teapot out. Your fancy tea. Ashley and I have a good friend who was on this podcast, his name is Mike Cannon. And he got sober.

It's like in solidarity with his wife while she was. pregnant and he was like, I loved that I like wasn't bloated. I didn't have a double chin. I could like clearly write jokes. He's a comedian. He was like, I just never went back to it. Like, see how much better your body looks when you stop drinking. Well, that's a great example, Rain. I'm glad you brought him up. He was somebody that I couldn't think of earlier when we were thinking of all these comedians. But yeah, it's like, he kind of had a reason. Like he was like, well, I want to show my wife support while she's pregnant and just saw the effects. Because I think it could be so scary for someone to be like, I'm quitting forever. Yeah, because with almost anything else, we don't feel this need to, like, make this declaration that we're never going to do anything ever again.

You know, if you want to exercise more, we're not like, I'm never not going to exercise ever again. Like, it's a habit, kind of like anything else, too. That is true. Make it a week. Don't make it forever. See how that goes. Well, we're talking about positive outlooks and things. Let's talk about when you don't want to have a positive outlook on things. We just, we pulled this post from your Instagram. I don't know if Farina has it easily accessible. but we love to have guests and quote them back to them. I don't. My phone's in my bathroom.

Do you have it easily? Oh, here it is. I have it. I think it was you don't have to be. You don't have to, yes. Amanda, I'm going to take it from here actually. I'm actually going to be the therapist here.

Yeah, it was a carousel slides, but you don't have to try to be positive all the time. So one of the tools that you talked about, it was a separate post, but I think this goes with this, is that like when you're not feeling positive to just like accurately identify the emotion. And I think that can help with also not drinking. But let's talk about it a little more.

Yeah. So, I mean, it's really crazy to think about just in the studies they've done. A lot of us don't know very many emotion words. And the more they've done studies and the more emotion words you know and can identify actually the better your mental health outcomes are. And it's a term called emotional granularity. So essentially what we want to do is be able to identify our emotions better because then we can not only take care of ourselves, but also if you think about it, language doesn't just help us identify things. Language creates our life. It creates our experience too. So I often give the example of kids a lot of times when they're young, only know like three emotion words. Like they know happy, sad, and angry. And because they only

know those words, they're typically happy, sad, or angry, like one third of their life. But once they start learning the words like frustrated or annoyed or worried, they can then reduce how intense those feelings are. Because if they have an understanding of like angry is like yelling and stomping their feet maybe and being mad, if they recognize frustrated is less than that, then they are able to more accurately articulate how they're feeling. I love that. And I use that word a lot because it's important to me to articulate exactly that.

I'm frustrated. I'm not angry, screaming, yelling, you know, and the relationship. I'm just like, I feel like I say that Jarena. Like, I'm just frustrated because, and I feel like it lessons. I hate when she says it today. It's not necessarily, it's not necessarily, it's not that you did something, but like something might happen in the business. Sometimes it's because she did something. But it's, it's like you want to be clear that like, I don't hate you. That's true. I know that's true. I think it's actually, I didn't think about it in terms of like explaining to other people how you. you're feeling. But yes, like, I feel like accurately identifying the emotion to somebody else.

The way that I thought about it was like when I'm feeling particularly anxious or stressed or not positive, telling myself like to get over it and be positive is not helpful. The first thing I do is try to say, what am I really feeling? What can I attribute that feeling to and let's identify that problem? And that will alleviate my problems. Like if I feel a lot of stress and, you know, like, we've all been like, why do I feel so anxious, you know? But if you identify why and then I attack that problem, It's not me like trying to be more positive. It's me trying to like problem solve. And that's like a different thing,

that it's an actionable step for me. Yeah. And I think it absolutely applies to both. Because if you can identify how you're feeling, exactly, you're able to better take action to take care of yourself, to help understand why. And a lot of times just being curious about what's going on in your body, you know, mental health-wise will make a big difference in kind of reducing how

intense it is versus when we're like beating ourselves up. So often we beat ourselves up when we don't feel positive or we feel anxious. And what we don't recognize is not only then do we have the emotion, but we have like all the anger or frustration on top of that emotion towards ourselves because we're judging ourselves for how we feel. Yeah. Your slide said we feel shame and think something is wrong with us instead of getting curious about what we could do to take care of ourselves, which is exactly what you just said. I mean, I love this line in here. It says your life is yours. You don't owe anyone positivity.

Like, sometimes they're just serious in a bad mood. Like that's, you know, even for me, like this, I do things to help myself get out of a bad mood. I like to look at the positive side. I'm still sometimes just like I'm fucking in a bad mood and I'm going to sit here and like be in it. You need to sit with it sometimes. Like I think it's the same even with like grief. Like we did a whole episode on grief. I'm like there you cannot beat yourself up because you're not getting over something in the time that you think you should be,

whether it's a breakup, a death, whatever it is. Like, I think some people feel like they're unsuccessful if they're sitting with a negative feeling. Yes. I think so many of us were raised also to believe, you know, just because I think our parents didn't always know what emotions were, they didn't always give us kind of this education about it,

that we believe that happiness is supposed to be our baseline. And that's just not true. Like, your brain doesn't care whether you're happy. Your brain evolutionarily cares about, keeping you alive. And it would rather have you be super anxious and alive than really positive and not worrying about things that might happen that you could control. Well, let's wrap it up. You were talking about our brains and what they're equipped to do and not equipped to do. But one thing that we just love and you talked about with Kate Kennedy, who was a friend of ours and been on the podcast, is this,

our brain's actually not being equipped to handle constant feedback from the world. And, you know, Rain and I had discussed this right before we hop down with you. I was like, is this relevant to everybody? And of course it's more relevant to people that live their lives in the internet. It's more relevant to influencers or podcasters or any type of celebrity. But I think even the average person is on social media. They are on TikTok or whatever. Like they get comments and they put something out into the world that's personal to them and they have to fear that people are going to say something negative. And I think we all live that way no matter how many followers we have. So I just, you know, want to talk through it with you, even if it's just like

reiterating like, yo, this isn't normal and this is fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think one thing that can put it into perspective, and again, I think this applies whether you are a content creator on social media or not, is our brains are only really wired to be in touch with about 150 people maximum. Yeah, but sorry, the first slide. Just reminder, your brain is not evolved to be in touch with millions of people.

It's like, wow. Yeah, because and that's why, you know, people, and you can do work. to, you know, develop thick skin and whatever, blah, blah. But I think it's also important to recognize that you're wired to care about what people think about you because if you didn't, you would die. Like, if you were kicked out of your, like, clan, you know, evolutionarily, you wouldn't survive. So, like, it makes sense that you care about people and I, and care about what they think

and you can do work to become less sensitive to it. But we're also just so bombarded, even not just like with whether people can comment on your own content or what you post, but even I just think about like the news and crises and the amount that happened in 2021 and 2020, you know, it's like we're so connected to everything happening all over the world. Even if they're not, even if we're not directly talking to those people, it's, it's a lot to just know what's happening crisis-wise all over the world at all times. I mean, listen, everybody wants to be liked at a baseline. If you say that you don't, I don't believe you. If you really don't care about it, if you really, really don't

care what anyone on earth thinks about you. I don't know. I don't know. I'm fuck with you. But there also might be something wrong. Yeah, you're so good. Yeah. I think that we are all trying to be the best people that we can. I think that you can get to a place where you can say to yourself, I try to be the best version of me. I like me. I hope everybody else says, if they don't, it's not going to destroy my life or my day. And that's what we should all strive for. But I think that like it is applicable, this constant feedback loop to everybody because like, everybody does have a need to be liked. And, but you don't have to be like. But you don't have to be liked by absolutely everyone. And that's fine too. Not everybody is going to like everything that comes

out of my mouth. I think Ashley and I try really hard to be inclusive of everybody and open-minded understanding. But I'm going to say stuff that offends people and I'm okay with that. Yep. I mean, I have over the past few years, like, done a lot of work. It's self-talk. It's self-control and knowing that people say things because they're jealous or they just want to be mean that day. You know, it just goes back to hurt people, hurt people, and these things don't matter. And like, if you're putting content out into the world, you're never going to please everybody. I can't stress enough. I am the biggest proponent of like, don't take the bait, don't ever respond to somebody that doesn't even have an avatar and Instagram. It's a troll. You know, I feel like I preach this. I feel like I can

teach a course on it. I feel like I have it down as much as anybody can have it down. But it doesn't matter. We have hundreds of thousands of followers, millions of people listen this podcast every month. Like people are going to say mean stuff to us. And there's as much as we don't read the comments, we don't read the reviews, we sometimes cannot avoid it. And it does, it still gets to you because we're human. And I just, it was so comforting to read your post. I'm going to quote you back to you. But you said, you aren't meant to hear endless feedback about your work,

your personality, how you look, your life, et cetera, regardless of how confident you are, your brain will always ultimately care what people think. Sometimes your body reacts even before you have time to like logic yourself out of it, right? Like your heart rate can increase. You can get tightness in your chest. Like you can just react. And that's not something you can even, you know, you can work yourself down from it and talk to yourself.

But that, you know, we're human beings at the end of the day too. And like, I don't, I don't know the answer. I mean, the answer to everyone else is just to stop doing this to people and cutting them down. And, you know, if you feel the need to write something nasty to a stranger on the internet, you need to self-reflect and realize why you're hurting so badly and why you're self-loathing. But we talked about this with the D'Amelio show. It's like, those girls are probably traumatized forever, you know, just by, what the internet did to them in their formative stages of like still developing as humans.

And Rain and I didn't have to deal with this until we were in our 30s. And so we feel grateful for that. But I don't know the answer. I think it's just letting people know like you're not weak because you're affected by the stuff people say to you on the internet. But it's if we can all just be a little bit kinder, I mean, geez, it's just, it's so bad. Just because just somebody says something doesn't make it true. and I have to like, I have to hammer that home for myself all the time.

Like when somebody says something to me and I find it easier just like Ashley. If it's a troll, I don't care, whatever. You're just here to hurt my feelings. You just slid on into my DMs and say something mean. You'll pick something. People like this, they know exactly how to cut you down. They're pros. Yeah.

Yeah. Somebody said something really mean to me about this Instagram video, this Instagram story I did working out. They knew that they could like insult my body. I was doing something good for me. It hurt my feelings, whatever. But it's the people that like you know, that like give you the feedback that hurts a little more.

I think it's just getting to a place where you can say to yourself, what is constructive feedback versus like what is something that's really not nice and I didn't deserve that. And just because you think it doesn't mean it's true, just because you think I, I don't know. I do a lot of like work to tell myself that. Like what's what's hurtful and what's meant to be just genuine feedback. Yeah.

And I think too like knowing yourself, knowing what your triggers are, knowing what you might be more sensitive to or what your insecurities are or whatever, I think that can be really helpful too. At least for me, I know as a therapist, I get very, very sensitive and worried when someone tells me I've caused harm because, like, as a therapist, you're not supposed to cause harm. So I used to spiral really hard anytime anyone, you know, has called me problematic or things like that. And it's also recognizing, obviously, we, you know, we all are imperfect. We make mistakes.

we mess up and, you know, it's important to own when you do. But it's also people's opinions change and they're filtered through their perceptions. Yes, exactly that. I think what I've done the most recently is just like reminding myself that for every negative comment, there's a hundred positive ones. Like we, I mean, you tell me, but I feel like sometimes we're wired to look at the negative first and like grab onto it. So like, you know, the rare occasion I get something really nasty comment or DM,

that I accidentally read, even though I tried not to or whatever it is. Like, I will go in and like read the positive ones because at least, you know, Rain and I, I mean, our brand is that 90% of people really enjoy us, like us, and think that we've helped them in some way and it's positive and it's good and it's amazing feedback. And then there's, you know, 10% that's not. I don't know the exact percentages. But, you know, I think sometimes someone can get 100 comments and 99 of them are positive

and there's one negative one. and that one sticks out and sits with you or it could even bother you for the rest of the day, where it's like, why don't we just shift to the positive? Because it's probably more positive than negative. And so I think that that's encouraging, I guess. And that's just, that's what I've been working on. Like, why did I let that get to me? And why did I even give it my energy when I could go in and read a bunch of really kind

messages that I haven't even bothered to respond to? Again, I can't respond to read DM. But like, why not, like, give the positive energy back to someone that gave it to me as opposed to even being in my head for one second about this nasty thing somebody said. Absolutely. Well, and I can also answer the question, Ashley, of why do we tend to focus on the negative so much?

It is because if you think about it, like even the risk of something negative hurting us, your brain doesn't care if you're right or wrong. So it's worth the anxiety of worrying about like a snake potentially being in the grass that could hurt you, for example, rather than thinking about all the great things that are happening because your brain cares about keeping you alive. And this is the whole thing is like our brain isn't adapted to live in this world.

So the things that trigger us now aren't life threatening anymore. But we still, a lot of times respond biologically the same way. Yeah, totally. That's so true. You're so right. And actually, I should practice that more too. Like I will get like hundreds of comments on something. And one will start with like, is it just me or does she?

And I'm like, oh, my God, it's going to ruin my whole day. Oh my God. Yeah. But I try to think about the mental state of the person that decided to do that. I decided. And that day, Ashley and I were talking about because I really, this person responded to my Instagram story. Oh, I like went crazy.

I was like, pull the car over. Like I was like, fuck this fucking loser. And this isn't even true. Like, fuck this. I was like so bad. It just really hard. I don't know why you like stuck with me. Whatever.

It's nothing. They said something mean about my workout routine or how I looked. But I, you have to take a step back and just say to yourself like, what is the mental state of a person that saw you doing something cool, creative, outside of the box, good for yourself, and thought, I am going to ruin that for them? Like, what, how rotten is that person? And like, that person did it on purpose to hurt your feelings. And again, does not make it true.

But like, that person is just a shitty person. And you can just write it off. Yeah. Or they have, right, like, they have so much pain. It's like bubbling out of them everywhere that they go, that they just have to be all over everyone. Yeah. Well, I'm glad we discussed this. we can this is the topic we can talk about forever.

Well, actually, I want to hear your, you know, you said that you could write a course on this. Maybe you should, actually. I just, I feel like I've worked on it a lot. I feel like I, you know, if I just want to put into words, like how I deal with it. Because I think I've had, I mean, I guess it's even been before the podcast. I was a blogger and some things went viral and almost every time something went viral, half the comments were negative. So I started to have to deal with this kind of like, or like later in my 20s, early 30s. And it also helps to see, I dated a guy that was a comedian and he just, I looked up to him and how he handled negative commentary, how he basically was like, I don't give a fuck.

Like, it was just kind of, I look to other people. I looked to how they handled it. And I look to people that I do not want to be like. And there's people that like get a negative comment and they get on their Instagram story and they cry about it. And I'm like, that is not what I want to be. So I've looked up to people that I admire too and then just have had to do a lot of like, let's think about what trolls actually are. And like, let's think about how pathetic these people. people's lives are and how sad they are and like why they feel like they need to cut you down. So yeah, I mean, maybe I'll work on that. I just, I kind of like, I don't think it's a problem that plagues everybody, but I think it affects us all in some way or some way or another if we're on the internet. And I feel for people that don't deal with it all the time so they're not equipped to deal with it. And like some just non-influencer person that just post something on Instagram that is, you know, they think they looked good or they're sharing something positive and somebody comes in and says something to me and it wrecks their whole day because they don't

deal with it consistently. And I feel for them. So maybe I'll get my master class together. Like Ashley needs another job to do. I think we saw it so much at the beginning of the pandemic through the last two years. People have started to find more creative ideas. So they are putting themselves out on the internet, whether it's teaching a class, whether it's the type of working out you do with other people,

art, whatever, starting a podcast. So many people started things where they put themselves out there. No one is trained to deal with this from like the most basic person to Kim Kardashian. No one is born to learn how to be on this like constant feedback loop, as you called it. It's not easy. Everyone's humid. It hurts everyone's feelings. And I saw so many people just attacking everyone on the internet for how stupid it was that they were like doing Instagram lives cooking, doing Instagram lives working out. And it's like that's everyone else's problem if they have a problem. You know, just keep doing you. Yeah. Absolutely. All right. Well, my dog groomer has called me

three times. So I guess Azul is ready to be picked up. But I think we got to everything. Amanda, unless you feel like there's anything you wanted to say that we missed? No, I think this was great. Thank you guys so much. This was so great to chat with you. Well, we loved having you. The book is great. Your Instagram is so great. It's full of so many great, just tidbits of mental health. So if you want to talk to people about where they can find you, your therapy, just your insights, your books, everything. I'm sure everybody would love to. Oh, and one more thing, more thing. You had this post. We don't need to go through it. We've took enough time or day. But you guys can go find it on her Instagram. I'm so glad you brought this up. Yes, it's 10 ways to detox that has nothing. to do with your body. And it's pretty, you know, stuff you've probably heard before, but all kind of in a list, like do the checklist on following people, detox your email inbox. I'm never going to do that. It's just, it's what it is. Clean your car. So anyway, you guys, go check that out. I think it's really like a nice checklist to be like, is my life chaotic and not in a good way? Then you can reference this post. But anyway. Oh, actually, I'm glad you brought that up. Okay, it's the last thing on our list and I forgot. We hit it all. Yeah, so you can follow me at Therapy for Women is on Instagram. I'm

also on TikTok sometimes. And you can check out my book. It's called Not Drinking Tonight. It's available everywhere. Books are sold. And my therapy practice is Therapy for Women's Center.com. Awesome.

Thank you. Thank you for being here with us. Yes. Thank you for kicking off the new year. Absolutely. And you guys know where to find us. New Year, same place. Girls Gotta Eat Podcast.com for show tickets

and merchandise and everything else. You can follow us on Instagram, but Girls Got to Eat Podcast. I am Ash Hess. Raina is rana.gren. Greenberg. We are Girls underscore Gotta eat on Twitter and YouTube.com slash Girls Gotta Eat. And we'll see you next week.