Girls Gotta Eat - Free Yourself From Family Drama feat. Nedra Glover Tawwab

Episode Date: August 28, 2023

She's baaack! We're so excited to be joined again by therapist and bestselling author Nedra Glover Tawwab to talk about family – identifying and addressing unhealthy relationships, setting boundaries, and being able to live a more drama-free life. We discuss what dysfunction looks like, sibling conflicts, having guilt and shame surrounding unhealthy family relationships, why "just get over it" doesn't work, when your parents don't accept your lifestyle, and more. Before Nedra joins us, we're discussing the topic of talking about exes with your current partner, getting excited about Beyoncé and Blue, and sharing an update on our friend who is battling cancer. Enjoy! Follow Nedra on Instagram @nedratawwab, get her latest book Drama Free, and find more at her website. Follow us @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit our website for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Shop Vibes Only. Thank you to our partners this week: Article: Get $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more at article.com/gge. MUD\WTR: Get 15% off your MUD\WTR order at mudwtr.com/gge and use code GGE at checkout. Quince: Get free shipping and 365-day returns on your next order at quince.com/gge. Hinge: Download Hinge at hin.ge/GirlsGottaEat and share your dating intentions to find someone worth deleting the app for. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

If you had a friend who came to your birthday party drunk and created a scene, wouldn't you say something to that person? Yes. Right. Right. If your dad does it, guess what you should do. Up Girls Gotta Eat. Welcome back. My mom's on the show today. Nedra.

I mean, are you good? I'm not good. It's Nedra Day. I'm the best I've ever been. I finally, instead of getting to reference her, she's just going to say stuff I'm going to reference for the next two years. So it is her second time in the show. So she knows us now. We're not complete strangers to her.

And I felt a warmer Nedra. Because she knows us. Not that she's not warm. But you know what I mean? Like I did feel a deeper connection with her. She's still a professional. We weren't like, you know, kicking it up. But I just feel like I felt happy for you.

Because it did feel like she was laughing at us a lot. I love people on our dress. As opposed to like us coming in more like nervous from the first time. I mean, would you say you were a stand? before the first time or more of just a fan and then you were a Stan. So I was not like a lifelong hero. Like I feel more connected to the guests I personally find.

You found Nedra. So like Dr. Romney, like I found her. And so I felt more connected to her because I was like, I found her. But like, Nedra, you found her. So I was like, that's Ashley's girl.

And then I read her. And then I read her book in like a day. And we had her on the show and the stuff she said during that episode. Right. Really changed me. But no. Thank God I found her.

You, I was so lost without you. That was really beautiful. I know. I remember literally being at my parents and walking by the TV and was like, who is this? Boundary expert. And then we just got her on. It was great. So the second time around, at first I thought she was going to be a little weird about

us saying, like, how much I talk about her. I also love that she shares some personal anecdotes about her own life and her kids. Uh-huh. Yeah, I feel like she were. in with her now. I hope. She's listening to this like, girls, please, please relax. Chill out. That's my boundary. That's some boundaries.

So I just wanted to say, because we haven't like welcomed new people in a wild welcome. And also, we have a great YouTube channel if you guys want to watch all the episodes. Ashley and I share a lot of stuff and then we layer in photos and assets. And it's just, it's a great channel. And so many people watch Jared's episode and just like love to watch

Ashley and I. They're like making dinner or waking up in the morning or whatever. So check out the GGE YouTube. Every episode in full is up there. I think you guys really like it. We have a great website with tons of resources for you guys. Every episode, all the partners, all the links to the partners and the codes and everything. So that's all there. Yes, it's fun to watch. We were just talking about the end of the year schedule. And then we realized that Christmas and New Year's Day will be on Mondays. We will take Christmas off. But then New Year's Day, we were like, oh, like, kind of weird to drop an episode on such a holiday

like that. And then I was like, no, people are going to be hung over. They can watch on YouTube. So set your New Year's Day plans now. And we love our first of the year episode. They're so fun. We like set our attendance for the year. So I'm so excited for everyone to like be a piece of shit. Well, not. If you don't want to, if you want to start your year fresh,

but the first is like I'm in my old habits on the first. It has never not been a bagel morning. Like two bagel morning. Two bagels. I miss ordering two bagels from Top of Square. So put in your calendar now. Girls got to eat on YouTube. Order your carbs.

And start the year right. Invite your friends over, have a party. Oh yeah. you guys can all wake up together in the same house. Oh, that'd be so nice. Love, what a great way to start the year drunken. We should drink in that. And the carb loading.

I loved last year. Yeah, maybe we should. Yeah, our first episode of that with James Clearer. Love that episode. So lots to do, you guys, check it out. Watch on YouTube. Okay, I just got the funniest DM, Rina. What is it?

I told Tesson not to tell you. We were laughing when you were upstairs changing. Someone DM me, and she said, did you know in 91? Okay. 1991, 92. We weren't alive yet. I was just a glimmer in my parents' eyes. Just kidding.

There was a sparkle eyes Barbie. No. Those are his eyes. So if you're new here, Sparkle Eyes is the code name for my boyfriend. Raina came up with it just on the fly. And we talk about Barbie a lot because it's been Barbie summer. Sparkle Eyes Barbie. Could you die?

Sparkle eyes Barbie. She's sparkled dress. She's so much hair. This is hysterical. On the box. Pretiest Barbie ever. Those are creepy. She has too much makeup.

We're going to share this on YouTube. It's so funny. He has a Barbie named after him. He actually wasn't alive then. Yes, he was. No. He was born then. That year?

No. 90. Before that. He's a 90s baby. Raina, can you not? I'm proud of you. You're Robin the cradle. The young-ass boyfriend.

Oh, my God. I haven't fucked anybody that was like outside. He was born in the 1900s, which is all that matters to me. Okay. I've been meaning to ask you this privately, but I'll ask you publicly. Do you ever to stop talking to you about like when you used to sleep with other people? Like, am I only allowed to talk about sparkable eyes now? No, come on. I was walking around the house last night thinking like, should I ask her if this is a boundary? Because I was talking about you taking a bath with some other guy and I couldn't tell if you were getting like a little uncomfortable with it. And I was like, should I ask her if it's okay to like bring up that she's had sex with other people? So thank you for asking. When you were asking me that, it wasn't that I felt. uncomfortable. I was just for the first time thinking about it in my head. No, like, he knows what this show is.

He's heard all these stories already because he's listening to the show. I don't want it to be the central theme of all the people I slept with before. But yeah, like, we all have a pass. That would be so weird if someone you or I dated was like, I feel really uncomfortable when you bring up people you slept with before me. Let's hope he doesn't feel that way. Yeah, I'm glad I asked you publicly. I really was thinking about this. That's my boundary. It was my shower. And I would like to go into every relationship like a virgin and I would like you to not bring up that I've ever slept with anybody else.

I mean, I don't think you're a fucking nerd like that. Some people would be. The way your wheels were turning, I could see it. I was like, is she not want me to talk about this? No, it wasn't that. I was just like, how much am I sharing? Got it. You know what I mean?

Yeah, totally. Because I do think like your current partner doesn't want to hear explicit details. Totally. But he's heard those. To an extent. He hasn't been like a hardcore listener. It means he listens now. He watches and listens.

He does both. He thinks you're so funny. I've seen him on the couch. He's been watching with Azul and he's like, Raina, he'll say it like under his breath. He's like, oh my God. He'll be like, oh my God, Raina. That makes me like me so hard.

It makes me like to be more. Okay, this is an interesting question because I think people have different views on talking about exes when they're in a relationship. Like, I have no issue with it. And I'm not talking about my exes to an excess, but it's not off limits. And I think some people really don't like it. And I guess it's how you say it.

Just context. Yes. Clearly, like, if you're on a date with somebody or you're in a relationship and you're like, oh, me and my ex used to do that. We don't want that. That's like wistful. You miss them. But like, I don't know.

I dated this guy so long ago and he really hated it. And he was like, I want to pretend like you've never dated anyone before me. And I was like, that's weird. I mean, I am exactly who I am because of my life experiences and all these people are a part of my story. And I think that everything exists within context. So I don't. Yeah, the context.

I've definitely been on dates with people that have like brought up other girls, people they've dated, and it's felt not good to me. But I've been on dates with people that have told me things within context. And I'm like, I feel like I know you better. Like I was on a date with somebody recently and he was telling me that like his last long-term relationship was this on and off 10-year relationship. So I was like, okay, let's explore that. Like, do you have a hard time letting go of things?

Do you have a hard time just putting an end to something? Do you get wrapped up in toxicity and you keep going back and back? Like sometimes, not always. but like the problems of the last person will be your problems sometimes. So I think about like things that somebody's told me early on. I told you like my ex told me that a relationship he was in,

she used to treat him like he couldn't do anything, couldn't accomplish anything. She was always babying him. That he couldn't just like execute anything. And he was like, it really pissed me off. And I was like, oh my God, poor you. That's a bit like that was a huge problem. Right. Obviously like those things just don't fix themselves. Right.

They can. But like that was the ex right before you. You ended up having the same issues. Yeah. So I'm mining clues. about you. Yeah, I don't want to hear about like sex you guys have been having, but... Yeah, yeah, sex, I don't think. And like, I...

That's so weird. My ex used to choke me like this, actually. Anything good about them? I don't want to hear. I actually also, like, you and I've talked about this. It depends how they speak about their ex too. Like, my ex, spoke about his ex in a very neutral way. Didn't say a ton of terrible shit about her. And I was like, okay, he's not so hung up on this.

Okay, so in what context do you bring up exes? Well, I just, I want to know everything. I like what you said. don't want to hear such amazing, positive, glowing stuff. Like, neutral is a great word. But also, like, I do like that you would feel positively about them, you know, and, like, want nothing for the best for them. That doesn't mean that you miss them or want to still be with them or pine for them.

But I like to know a lot. You and I talk about relationships for a living. I want to know about everybody's past. Friends, people I meet at a party, you know, like, so I'm just so curious. And so I really want to know that about the person I'm dating. We have that conversation early on. And I think his default is not to talk about past really. But I was like, it doesn't mean that you're missing that relationship, or at least for my end, it just is like, I think these things are interesting conversations to have with your current partner. Yes, like you said, because you might be like mining for clues, but be just out of curiosity, like what made you the person that you are today. You know, I think of like my ex, like long term relationship before this. I feel like I knew so much about his exes. It like helped me know a little bit more about him. And a lot of it is just straight curiosity. Yeah, I want to know how you think about things. Yeah. So like on that.

same date. I've been out this person a lot of times, but I was talking about my engagement ending and like how I think about the person who left me. And I said like, I don't hate him. I'm not mad at him. I don't care. I think we were really young. I don't think he was proud of it. And I would hope somebody would hear that and be like, that's a really mature, kind, open-minded way to think about something that happened a long time ago. Yeah. Somebody still hung up on something. I'm like, what's going on here? Yeah. So I think it's good and healthy. And listen, if you're the kind of person that's like, I have a girlfriend that's like, I have never looked into it. I don't ask. I don't look back on their social media. I just don't care. And I don't know. I'm living that free. I don't know. I just

want to know. Like, it's a part of your story as we get to know each other. It'd be so weird to not know these things. Like, I listen to you talk about your last most serious accident. You talk about the volatility and how you responded to him and the emotional issues he brought into the relationship and your reaction to those things. And I listen to you talk about it in the context of how you've learned from those things. Don't you want to hear those things from your partner? Yeah, because that's important to me. Yeah. And like issues that you may have had in a previous relationship that you feel like you've grown from or grown out of or don't see happening in this relationship. You know, I don't know. I just find it all very fascinating. So anyway, I just think it's interesting because not everybody thinks that way. Like you have a friend you just said, doesn't want to know. What? That's crazy to me. Yeah. Don't want to know. To me it's just like, yes, I've already mined your social media and I know like what they look like. But I want to know like what that person acted like. I guess actually, I do want to know. Like, I want to know. that I'm better in bed.

That's literally what I was going to say. I want to know that I fuck better. That's what I want to know. I want to make sure it's the extreme. I want to make sure that this is the best sex you've ever had. And if it's not, what can I do to make it that way? That's how I feel. I want to hear if she just didn't do it for me.

I want to know that she wasn't adventurous, that it was just missionary only, that she didn't bring you out of your comfort zone. I want to hear all those things. I want to hear how I've changed your life. I want to hear you guys didn't fuck that off. in how my ex used to do this joke on stage about I was the most hypersexual person he ever met and I was like, that's the best thing I've ever heard.

Say it again. Yeah. Yes. Somebody told me the other day, he finally met his sexual match. It's like, tell me more about how bad everybody else was before me. You know what? I actually, that's maybe the thing I want to know the most. Yeah.

When I'm asking about your exes, I'm actually trying to hear that they were bad at. Or not even bad, just plain, just vanilla. That's really what I'm trying to hear. I can't imagine somebody dating. your eye and being like the last one was more adventurous than you. Like I have a wall of dildos that could do you in. That would hurt. But then I'd be like write everything down and I'm going to master this.

I'm going to do it better. And then write the stuff you never did because we're doing that too. You know what? I will be the best sex you've ever had. I'm not. I'm not leaving. I'm training. Like you're training for a marathon.

I will train. We will go to classes. You will walk me. through this. Oh my gosh. All right. Well, I'm glad we talked about that. Me too. That was a fun little topic. So as we record this, we have been back from Dewey Beach, but we are recording before we go. So we'll catch you guys up on anything crazy, but it's just going to be kind of like a low-key vacation. And then next week we're off on the fourth. And we are going to Beyonce. On her birthday, we are going to Beyonce on B-day, everybody. Are you hearing me? And it's crazy because

not every artist celebrity is that into their birthday, but Beyonce is, Beyonce is an album called B-Day. Her birthday is a holiday. You know, it's like at four is her number. It's just, I can't believe we're seeing her on her birthday. Like all I do every single day, every morning I wake up and I look at the post from the night before to see the looks because she has different looks in every city. I'm so obsessed that my whole explore page on Instagram is all Blue Ivy. I like get so emotional watching Blue and her mom. Like, we all know I don't want children, but something about it hits me.

Like something about this 11-year-old girl and her mom and watching her get so much more confident as the tour goes on with her dancing and just feeling herself. And then watching her mom watch her with this pride and then like the main dancer that's kind of like blue stage mom. Like I get so emotional. I feel like close to tears watching them both on stage.

And I'm like, I've never felt something that like the tiny bit of me It was like that would be kind of amazing. And you don't get that guaranteed. A, you're not guaranteed to have a daughter. And B, you're not guaranteed that they'll follow in your footsteps in any way. But something about it is so special. I've never really seen anything like it. And she looks just like the AI hybrid of her two parents.

It's crazy. And I just love her whole energy. And she kind of started out so shy. Now she's just killing it. And I can't get enough of it. And I cannot wait to see it in person. I love it. I mean, it reminds me in the J-Lo documentary.

her and her daughter. Her daughter was like a part of her performances. And like you and I love watching Kylie and Stormy. I just think they're like the cutest. Stormy! Stormy! They are like every once in a while you see just like a mother daughter and it just hits you as someone who doesn't want kids.

I'm sure if you want kids, you think about that all the fucking time. But for me, like I don't feel that a lot. And I'm just like, oh, that's just, it's so special. I love watching these female icons just like raise their daughters up. Keeping up the Kardashians this season, I guess it's just called the Kardashians now. But I've really enjoyed watching Kylie talk about the stuff she's had done to her out of her face, her breasts, like, and talk about how, like, if Stormy didn't love herself,

and think she was beautiful, like, break her heart. I really enjoyed, like, listening to her talk about that. I really do love that, too. I mean, I have really come around on the Kardashians with Hulu. The show, like, looks better. It's, like, so much doper. And, I mean, I know that it's not, like, it's roots, but I was never a keeping up with the Kardashians person, and I've watched it on Hulu, like, every episode. And, I mean, at the end of the day, whatever you think, you know, I have some negative feelings as well, but they're still like female entrepreneurs and I just like enjoy watching them. I think they have a lot of love in their family and all the stuff. But yes, it's very interesting that Kylie did so much to her body and her face. I didn't know if she had breast implants, like all these things.

And then as having a daughter, she's like, I wish I wouldn't have done it. Like I actually can't imagine my daughter wanted to change all these things about her and to like regret those things through the eyes of your child. I really enjoyed watching that. It also kind of made me sad. Well, I think it's interesting when I'm talking about how they set the beauty standards in this country. It's like they're responsible. You can't blame one person, but they're sort of responsible for the beauty of standards in this country.

And it's funny when I got my veneers, when I got my breast reduction, when I get, like, Botox, I don't tell my mom. I don't tell my mom until, like, the second I have to. Like, I'm going into surgery. Just letting you know if I don't. Because I don't want her to think about me changing things about myself. That is so interesting because I remember my mom is like insane genes.

I mean, she, I feel like I joked that she just started to age at 65. It's crazy. Like you just started to see kind of her neck look different in her 60s. But her mom also had really great jeans even on like her last days. I was like, what is this collagen grandma? Like, why does your face look like that? It's insane. You're about to die.

I know. And so we have, I have good jeans on that side. But my grandma always told my mom like, never do anything to your face. And she didn't need to. But I kind of got that passed down to me. And then I was like, no, I'm not not doing Botox.

Come on. Let's be serious. I got dad's face. I feel better. I feel fresher. It works. We're all doing it. And if you don't want to do it, then don't do it.

but like I didn't start getting anything to my face until I was in my 30s. I decided to not age gracefully. I'm not going to do it. At 29, I was just like, fix it. But I kind of had that in my head and I didn't tell my mom right away either. I wasn't like so excited to like tell my mom I got Botox for the first time, you know, because I'm like, oh, grandma think. And then I'd be like, if grandma saw it.

She could or she would have. She'd be like, you got that from your dad. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. I do have Lee Heseltines, Crow's feet. That's for damn sure. Cindy has none.

She's no crows feet. You guys all laugh a lot. I can't wait see your mom this week. Oh, I'm so looking forward to it. I just love your family so much. This is my sixth summer in Dewey. It's like so many. And I think there's so many times.

I mean, I go home with you for your mom's birthday, for Christmas, that's wedding. Like, I'd go home with you a lot. My mom was like, you go to Ashley's family a lot more than ours, and I don't like it. So I wanted to say one thing. We are going to see a friend this week that I talked about that had breast cancer.

and, you know, we had this really kind of emotional conversation. This was back in the winter. And I think at that point, you know, she had gotten the diagnosis and then it was kind of worse than we had thought. And this seemed like this could, you know, affect her for her whole life or quite some time. And she was about to start chemo. And she did the three months of chemo. And I went with her once.

I went and sat with her. And you have a lot of feelings about the experience. But ultimately, like, she just, and you saw her that same trip as well. And she just seemed like herself. I mean, it was amazing. Like she didn't, you know, really look much different. She wasn't acting any different. You know, she was getting really tired at night and things like that.

But that wasn't something that we were seeing. And we were just talking shit. Just like old days. Yeah. And, you know, even to be there with her in the room, her oncologist came in. I mean, she's got her cold cap on and, like, she's doing the procedure. Like, it did hit me and I had a really emotional response. But, like, seeing her be like, quote unquote, normal through it all was like also really helpful too.

And she asked me, she was like, how does this make you feel? And I was like, it makes me feel better, you know, to see this thing that sounds so scary. And then you're like obviously being so strong through it. And even when the oncologist came in while I was sitting there, he was just like, you're killing it. You know, everything looks so good. Your blood cell count, all these things. And he decided to have her do another round. But, I mean, she is well on her way to being quote unquote cancer free. I think that's a really touchy term to use, you know, because you don't want to get ahead of yourself. But like she left me this voicemail on my birthday. We all burst into tears. She would have been there. if she, you know, was able to come and him saying like how good it was going and like she really has a future of being cancer free, which we just didn't know could happen with the early diagnosis.

So it's just, I know people have asked about it. We got a lot of messages when we did that episode and really our hearts are with anybody who's struggling with this or their family. We got this beautiful email from our listener that I just saw last night about her mom. She's really been taking care of her mom and her mom has come to girls got to eat shows and her cancer. She's just declined in the last year. And anyway, it was just this really heartfelt email. I did respond to her.

But people ask, like, what's going on with your friend? You know, I really related to the story. So we did want to update you guys and we're going to see her. And you know, it's not normal, but it feels normal. And she's young, obviously, this isn't necessarily the same as maybe having like a parent or a grandparent kind of go through this. But I really do strongly believe in my heart that she's going to get through this and live a normal life.

And she feels like that too. And she's just been so positive through it all. I just can't imagine. Like, you and I were joking. I was like, I think I'd be kind of glad. last half empty on this. Yeah. Like, I'm kind of kidding because I'm like a positive person, but I don't know if I could

stay as positive. Like, I want to think of myself as like a fighter and you know what I mean? But she has just been an inspiration to watch. I'm a fighter, but like, you know what it's your birthday? No one can like talk shit to you or say any of you do anything on you want on your birthday. I would do anything I wanted on cancer. And no one could say anything to me about it.

And whatever you said, I'd be like, I've cancer. Like, I don't know that I'd be so positive about it. I'd be like, don't step to me. me. I've kids her. So she's so funny. I mean, this is a woman who's like even help me with my standup over the years. Like I find her to be so hilarious. And she's made jokes about this. And so we let her lead on the jokes, you know, because you got to laugh through it with some of the stuff. You don't have to but we do. And she does. And we were with her in New York and she had said she took the train. I go, bitch, you better be taking a black car. I'd be taking a black car everywhere I went.

She was like, she was like, I took one subway to another one, that one shut down. Then I'm going to take another subway. I'm going to walk like 15 minutes. Do you guys mind waiting for me? I'll just take another train. We were like, bitch. First of all, take it on your own. Second of all, if you don't feel like pain for it, tell us we will put you in a car. We did put her in a car. I was like, if you don't get in a car right now, go to this corner. We have an SDV picking you up.

You can't her? Just get it. Can I tell you the meme? She sent me this. And I just think anyone who like, you know, has this kind of outlook on the world would also laugh at this. But it even caught me by surprise. She sent me a meme that says, it's this girl's think I'm funny account.

It says, what's something that's something. I can do besides get married where I can be the center of attention and everyone cries and tells me how beautiful I am. And she wrote cancer too soon. I was like, oh my God. Like her sense of humor through it all. It's not nonstop. She's not making jokes all day, every day. Like, she really has had the most positive outlook on this. Like I follow Grace Helbig. Do you know who that is? She's this influencer and she's about to start chemo. She has cancer as well. And she's doing still like vlogging and stuff. And she's like, did her like chemo hall. The stuff she bought for chemo.

And the people in the comments are like, why am I laughing at your chemo hall? It's a crazy thing. But like, you watch it and you're like, God, it feels nice. You're so sad on the inside, obviously. You're crying yourself to sleep every night. That would be a lot of people's experience. And you can still kind of like laugh, have people around you laugh, make people laugh by day, you know. And anyway, so she's a good follow.

If you want to see what she's going through about to go through as well. She drove with us, like just from the hotel to the boat for my birthday. and then came on the boat for like 20 minutes before we pulled out of the dock. And she just wanted to talk hard shit the whole way. And I just appreciate it. And if that's not how everybody is, that's fine. I think you deserve to talk about, I think you could talk about cancer if you've cancer all day. Just talk about cancer forever.

But she, I think, healed through a humor a little bit. And I thought that was nice. Yeah. And then sometimes she doesn't want to talk about it. You know what I mean? Like I think we had another friend that kind of hadn't seen her in a while and wanted to ask her a bunch of questions. And our other friend stepped in and was like, hey, she just wanted to talk about that. Like, you know, she just wants to kind of talk normal.

tell her about who you're dating, like that kind of stuff. She doesn't want to answer a bunch of chemo questions right now. You know, like, it's nice to post your child for cancer right now. Right. But it's like sometimes you do have to step in and be like, hey, you know, don't do that? Or you have to be like, do you want to talk about this right now? Like, I just think like open communication is so important because sometimes you might want to talk about it. And other times you're like, I don't actually want to talk about that at all.

Well, it would be like an interesting elephant in the room if like no one brings it up. You're like, no one's going to ask me. I'm fucking stage for cancer. No one's going to bring it up. Right. is actually the exact opposite. Everyone's like, Raina doesn't want to talk about her cancer.

Raina's saying they're fuming. She's like, no one has even asked me about my cancer. Excuse me. You're asking me about other stuff in my life. I have cancer. Did anyone know? So, John Mullaney has this joke in his special about when he went.

He goes, when I went to rehab, I had this fear that everyone would recognize me. And the longer I was at rehab, a new fear developed. And it was that no one recognized me. And that's how I'd be about the cancer. I'd be like, no one better fucking bring this up. I'm trying to have a fun time.

And I'd be at dinner and I'd be like, no one, no one is going to ask. You're just talking about your stupid lives and your shitty husbands, your fat kids. What about my cancer? Stop it. Yeah, you order a drink. You're like, I'll take another espresso martini. By the way, I have cancer. And no one here is asking.

No one's going to bring up the amount of alcohol I've drank. It's probably not good for my cancer. You're just going shot for shot. You haven't read me. If you order a round of Jameson shot to just to get someone to tell you not to. I have this whole like, you only live once. I'm going to die soon speech and no one gives me the opportunity to give it. Rain is like, I'm going to head to the bathroom and do a couple lines.

If anyone wants to stop me. I don't mean to say about that. I've been pretty tired lately. Does anybody want to ask why? Okay. Definitely too dark for some people. Some people are like, we get it. You guys did the joke.

Okay, so I wanted to kind of give you guys a little update because we are doing an episode today with Nedra about drama dynamics in your family. And we did this episode one year ago with Lori Gottlie where we talked specifically about mother-daughter relationships. I think it was in September, October. It was in the fall of 2022. And I really shared a lot about my strained relationship with my mom over the years and what it's looked like and how it's evolved.

And it was by far the most messages I've ever gotten from any episode. My relationship with her was something I held really close to the chest. I didn't talk about it a lot. because I didn't want to embarrass anybody. And I had said in the episode, you know, growing up, I felt very physically safe, but very emotionally unsafe. And I thought that you guys shared so much about your lives and your mothers and you as mothers.

And I just wanted to kind of give you guys an update before we do this episode because I do mention the episode that my mom and I went through patches where we didn't speak for long periods of time, which was a long time ago. But I was kind of thinking how my relationship with her has evolved over the last year since Lori and the advice I was able to put in place. And my mom and I had this really nice moment recently. so I just wanted to share that with you guys. But I was kind of thinking, like, why do we get along so much better than we used to?

And, you know, we never went to therapy. My mom is the therapist. But we never went to therapy. And I was just trying to think, like, what did I sort of put in place since Lori? And what have I put in place over the years? And, you know, Lori really helped me to see that, like, everyone's just trying to do their best. You know, like, your mom is a person, and she is probably disappointed in how things have worked out as well if you guys don't get along and things like that.

So I just was kind of thinking, why do we get along more? And I think I personally have let good. of the need to prove that I am right all the time. There was always a lot of screaming in my house, and I will admit that I am 50% of the problem. She starts the problem, but I rise to the occasion every time. And my mom's just really anal about everything, way more than me. It's like you open the fridge.

What are you doing in there? You stand up and where are you going? And I always felt the need to put her in her place constantly and like talk to her about her behavior. And I just stopped one day. And I was just like, let's try this experiment. I'm going to stop discussing her behavior with her all the time. And I'm just going to let it go.

who cares. Big things and small things. All the things. And I think when I let go of the need to be right all the time, she like offloaded this person that told her she was wrong all the time. And it broke this cycle of her feeling like somebody was coming down on her constantly,

judging her, didn't like her, was saying all these things to her about her own behavior. She's also my mother. She doesn't want to hear about her own behavior. And I think that it's hard to even hear somebody when they say like you've hurt my feelings or I don't like this, when you feel like they're always attacking you.

And we were always attacking each other. And we've just broke. in that cycle. We just don't do it anymore. So I think that like she has de-escalated. Yeah. I don't feel attacked that much anymore. I don't need to raise to every fight. It just like doesn't matter. I'd rather just get along. She's a good person also. So this is different that I've always said in the dynamic of somebody that feels truly abused

by a parent, which I do not. So I just wanted to give you guys that update. It's been really good and I feel like it's been good for years, but especially since Lori. And we had this really nice moment recently where I said, why does this Robert Frost poem come to mind? Why do I think of the road not taken? Is everybody familiar with that poem? It's like the most famous poem of all time. What, like, two roads diverged in a wood, that thing? Most people are.

The poem is basically about taking the road bus traveled. Yeah. And being the kind of person that doesn't take the easy way or the quick way, but the way that is, you know, a little different than the norm. And my mom had written it in a baby book of mine. And I couldn't remember why. And I was asking her why. So I texted her.

And I loved her response. I was in Rome. I was walking around reading this. I sent it to you. I was like, my God. The row not taking was meaningful to me. It's how I wanted to live my life, take risks, to be brave, and I tried to. But by standards of the era, I grew up and in my young adulthood. Of course, by today's standards, I wasn't. So I wanted to have my kids, especially my daughter,

live like that. So I wrote it in a book thinking that if I brought it to you, you might live your life like that. I just told friends I was out with that you are the internalized me. I intended to be externalized and fully realized. So emotional. And I was like, that's a nice. She never said to me. She said, I say nice things about you all the time. You don't hear them. Yeah.

And I just, I thought it was really beautiful. And I don't know. Maybe I didn't even, like, create a safe space for her to say those kinds of things to me. I mean, I've so enjoyed being on this journey with you and your mom, too. You know, like, we weren't friends when you, like, didn't speak for those couple years and stuff like that. But it was still, you know, a little more tense when we first became friends and you've, like, changed a lot. And it's just gotten so much better.

I've just, like, watched the improvement, you know, over time. So I'd love to see it. I don't know. I mean, that also puts into perspective some other things of like your relationship. And I was talking about you and your mom the other day. And I was actually talking to a friend about her romantic relationship and like needing to let go of some of that, like what you've kind of done. And it's like, not that you made the relationship mean less to you. I mean, for you was more like, I don't need to be right all the time. Like I don't need to be in this constant cycle. And in turn, it like relaxed her as well. And I think that's something that's so important. And we talked about this with Lori on

the episode of like you sometimes don't feel like you should be the one to have to do that as a kid. You should be like, why do I have to be the more mature person here? I'm not saying that that's necessarily how you viewed it. But sometimes you're like, my parent, they're the adult here, even though if you're an adult child, like they should be the one to fix this issue. Why do I have to change my behavior? They're supposed to be the one. And it's like, that's not really how like humans always work. You know, your mom's got her own shit, whatever. And so you just kind of had to shift your mindset, make some changes. In turn, she did the same. And it kind of like worked that way. Like, I think sometimes we get really stubborn where we're like, well, I shouldn't have to do that.

They should just do this thing. You know, like I was, again, talking about a romantic relationship. But I think sometimes it's like, well, I don't want to have to be the one to de-escalate or do this or do that. He should do this or she should do that. And it's like, but just try. Right. You know, like, just try. Like tweak this one thing.

Get out of your head that you shouldn't have to and see if it works. Yes, I agree. And I remember her saying to me a long time ago, I said something like, well, you don't get mad at Arland when he does all stuff or something and she was like well i feel like arlin likes me right and that speaks volume and i was like i think about that now all the time because i'm just not constantly telling her about her behavior i don't like it it annoys me she's not going to always say the perfect thing but i do feel like she probably has the inclination that i like her a lot more than i used to and i do but i like her a lot more because i feel like i'm being attacked less too it's been nice and the ending lines of that

poem i think are two roads diverged in open wood and i i took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference. And so I got a tattoo that said the one less traveled by. Yeah. And I just love it. And I think it's like a special reminder of her. And so I just, I want to give the idea that there is hope. And after decades, three decades of trying to murder each other, like, we're fine, we're good. I don't harbor feelings about it. I've just had to let it go. And like, we're fine. Yeah. Well, I love it. Thanks. I'm so glad. I was excited to share that with you guys. Because you were just so open and wonderful. And this is a great episode about family. Yeah. Okay. It's time. Yay.

Okay, guys, we are over the moon to welcome back our guest today. She is a licensed therapist sought after a relationship expert with 15 years of experience. And it is the founder and owner of the group therapy practice, kaleidoscope counseling. She is a New York Times bestselling author of the book, Set Boundaries, Find Peace. She has appeared as an expert on Red Table Talk, Good Morning America, the New York Times and more. Her newest book, Drama Free, A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships came out. This year, we are thrilled to welcome her back. Please welcome Nedra Glover to Wob. Hello. Thank you for that wonderful welcome. Well, Raina is your number one fan. And yeah, she references you. No, I want to tell her.

Sorry. Go. Go. No, we had had probably 200 guests on this show in the last five and a half years. And you are by far the one I reference the most. I bring you up constantly. It's like become a joke where I'm like someone that we're interviewing says the word boundary and I like shoot her a side eye. I'm like she's going to talk about Nedra. It's just like in front of other guests. She's like, well, Netra would say. Oh. I'm kind of exaggerating. She's not. That's literally how I am. I can't hear the word boundary without having a Nedra flare up. That's a good thing. That's a good thing, right? It's really wonderful. And your book, which you came on the show a couple years ago to talk about, Ashley found you. made an amazing interview with you, I think, I mean, April, two years ago. But boundaries apply to

every relationship. And it's such a phenomenal book. And we really highly recommend and that people buy it and listen to the episode. But we want to talk to you today about dysfunctional families. Yay. Come on. Let's get into it. So tell us an overview of the new book. And was the inspiration from your own life, your patience, people begging for it? Just kind of tell us what prompted you to do this book? All of the above. Okay. My own life, which is very similar to, you know, some of my clients. Also, watching drama-filled TV. Also, living in the world with other people, it gives you a view of family relationships being the most challenging relationships. After I wrote Set Boundaries Find Peace, so many people are like,

this was a great book, but what about if it's your family? You know, how do you set boundaries with your mom? How do you be yourself in a family where no one listens to you? Like all of this family stuff and there was just something needed to address the relationship that we have the biggest issues around. You know, sometimes with our friends, like we're picking these people. We're picking our partner with family. It's like, this is the crew you're born into, good or bad. You know, we don't get to pick our socioeconomic background.

We don't get to pick our race, our neighborhood, our aunts, our uncles, our parents. siblings and so forth. We're just like thrown into this, you know, mix. And we have to figure it out. And for some of us, that could be very difficult, especially if there is some dysfunction in the family, especially if there is, you know, a lack of boundaries or the inability to communicate in your family. So, yeah, this book is for all of us who are from families. You know, I think most families have some level of dysfunction. It may not be between you and your parents. It might be with your siblings.

It might be your parents with their siblings, you know, the estate squabbles or, you know, we don't talk to this aunt because, like, all of that stuff is under the umbrella of dysfunction because it's a pattern and it impacts the relationship. Yeah. And unlike a romantic partner or a friend, it's like the only thing you can't really get rid of. You only got one of them. Well, it's like people will be like, cut them out of your life. And it's like, it's not that easy. It's just feel so different when it's like blood and it's family. And I've always said that you're for me personally just naturally more triggered by family than you even would be with a friend or even a romantic partner. Like it just hits different. Absolutely. I think family, those relationships have been so longstanding. You know, you're in relationships with people who knew you before you even knew your name. You know, you are growing in this situation and this environment where you can only be so much of yourself is not really until we, you know, grow up and move away that we're able to, you know,

maybe pull some of those traits or even create our own. So, you know, family, it is a tough relationship because many of us do feel like we have to take it. We have to be there. We have to deal with certain things. And, you know, drama free is so much about how do you, reshape this idea of what you have to deal with. How do you show up in your relationships with family members as you would show up in any relationship? How do you have these hard conversations? And if you decide to exit a relationship, how do you take care of yourself when making a really hard decision like that? Yeah. And I like that you break both down in the book, how to manage somebody who won't change and you want to stay in it versus how to exit the relationship. And that's nobody's

preferred method, but we will get into it. But maybe we could start with just defining dysfunctional families because I think that, you know, of course you talk about trauma and abuse, but there's so much more that goes into it, quote unquote, just dysfunction in a family. Well, dysfunction can range from, you know, alcoholism, substance abuse, emotional neglect to unhealthy communication patterns, yelling, screaming, verbal abuse, cussing each other. out, giving each other the silent treatment. It can even be, you know, what I mentioned earlier, like some of those estate squabbles, people fighting over who's going to take care of aging parents, siblings having, you know, rivalries not just in childhood, but also in their adult relationships,

competing with family members and on and on. The same dysfunctions we can have in, you know, co-worker relationships we can have in families. Often we feel like because it's family, we can't really have an issue with it. I can't say that my, you know, sisters is jealous of me because it's my sister. She could never be jealous of me. Well, guess what? Even sisters can be jealous of you. Even mothers. The most, I feel like, I don't want a sister. I would be just so I would flare up. The moms. Yeah. The moms, the, you know, the dads. The, you know, so a lot of this. stuff that we see in other relationships, it also happens in families, but our brain processes it differently because it's family. It's like, oh, I have to ignore this person doing that. And sometimes

we need to think about, you know, if this was a friend doing this, how would I address it? Would I just, you know, ignore it or what I say to this person, hey, it seems like every time I get a car, you get a car. You know, it's like every time I get a haircut, you get a haircut. You get a haircut. You know, so maybe this, every time I wear nail polish, you have nail polish. You know, whatever those things are, we start to notice this stuff. And we don't say anything because it's like, oh, it doesn't mean that it could mean. And it's like, hey, it could mean that. If you would address it in any other relationship, if you had a friend who came to your birthday party drunk and created a scene, wouldn't you say something to that person?

Yes. Right, right. If your dad does it, guess what you should do? You should say something about that. What's the phrase death by a thousand cuts? You know, that's the nail polish thing is you flip out about the nail polish, but it's like never about that. But with family, you have 30 years of a thousand cuts.

And I like something that you wrote in the book where you said, you know, it can just be patterns persistent with chaos and drama. And I think there's a lot of shame around admitting like that was really hard for me and terrible for me growing up. And maybe I didn't go through quote unquote real trauma. But any patterns consistent with like my home life is not a safe space for me emotionally. It's really tough. And I think people struggle with a lot of like shame around that.

Yeah, because for some reason, we think that there is an ideal family. We think that, oh, my gosh, this family is so great. Look at them. They have this mini van and a dog and all these things. And we make up a story about them. And in actuality, we don't know what happens behind closed doors. So it's hard to say that, you know, no one can understand what we're going through when we're sitting in silence. People can understand, you know, some of your story, be it friends, be it, you know, maybe other family members.

There's support within the family. Sometimes your sibling, sometimes some cousins or, you know, that person in the family who's not coming to all the family gatherings. Like, there's someone else there who might be seeing what you see. So where do we start with this? Like, as a person who is dealing with some of this in their family, I mean, that's a broad question. Well, I like that because, like, she talks about in the book, this culture of, like, Just Get Over It. Right.

And I would love to hear your thoughts on it because it seems like that's not really a great, healthy place to be. Yeah, the Just Get Over It culture really continues the process of dysfunction. because nothing is addressed and nothing is being changed. It can be very hard to look at some of these relationships where there's been, you know, so many offenses. When you think about some of the relationship issues that siblings have, you'll hear them say things like, they've always been this way. When I was in eighth grade, you know, like there's this longstanding history of, you know,

your brother leaving you out of stuff. So you have 57 examples. and then last week he did it again. You know, so you're talking about all of these years of having these issues with a person that you've just been getting over. You've just been getting over it for years. And that has not worked as a practice. Like that's not a reasonable practice.

It's not sustainable. When you just like, oh, I'm going to forget about it. I'm just not going to talk about it. The thing continues to happen. And you continue to be triggered. again and again because nothing has been said and nothing has been done. So I would say some of the first steps is to acknowledge what the dysfunction is. In any relationship, mother, father, brother, sister, whoever it is, this is the dysfunctional thing. How do you want to address it?

Is there a conversation that needs to be had? Is there a behavior that you can manage on your side? Or is there a combination of the two? Now, sometimes with conversations, we're going to, to the person with the expectation that, hey, if I tell them they're really loud and embarrassing, that'll make them stop. And it's like, no, a part of that might be you have to accept that they're loud and embarrassing and you might not need to invite them certain places. Right. Yeah. Because they're going to be themselves. Right. So if that's who they are, you may have to do some different things. Now, you can tell them, hey, you know, You're loud, right?

But it doesn't mean they're willing to change it. They may just think like, you know, you're being petty or you're making stuff up is not that bad. Nobody else thinks this. You know, all the stuff people say when they don't want to change. Oh, you're crazy. All of this stuff. But it can be a real issue for you. So if that is the case, you change the way you deal with the person.

It's not on the other person always to stop drinking. You know, I think drugs and alcohol is a really big. one in families. It's like, oh, my brother drinks too much. I have to stop him from drinking. Well, how do you do that? He can't even stop himself from drinking. Right. An addiction means that there is an inability to quit. So if he can't stop himself, I don't know how you, what your issue around is would stop this person. What you could do is maybe say, hey, when you have four drinks and I'm at your house, that's the time where I'll leave. Or you just get up and leave.

Maybe you don't even announce it. You just get up and leave. Or maybe, again, what can you do in these situations? It's not about making this person a better listener, making them validate everything you say, making them do less of whatever the problematic behavior is. It's really about what do I do in this situation with this person who, who has this behavior. Yeah, and change yourself first.

I mean, for me, it was like, don't stay with my mom when I go to Pittsburgh. I stay down the street, stay with my dad. I mean, we get along really well if we spend four hours together and then I exit the premises. So I change my own behavior and it helps our relationship a lot. And you write about resisting the urge to operate and the dysfunction. And for me, it's just like I can only change my own behavior

so that I have to start there because a lot of people aren't going to respond very positively to you slinging shit at them. and telling them how terrible they are without at least coming to the table 50% and saying this is what I'm willing to do. I think we live in a culture of we have this tendency to meet people where they are, to match their energy. So if someone is yelling at you, we feel like, I had to yell back at them. No, you don't.

You know, if someone is yelling at me, I'm going to irritate them the most by being calm. I'm like, oh, why is your voice so elevated? Gaslight them. Yeah, like, why are you yelling? You know, like you don't have to meet people with their energy level. And I think sometimes when we're adults, we like revert back to that childhood itself of arguing with the sibling or, no, I don't have to. It's like, wait, where did you go? Like you were an adult like 20 minutes ago.

Now you're like 10. What just happened? It's like we revert back to that old way of functioning with our families. And we really have to step out of that and take a breath and think about, okay, how do I want to respond to this situation when my mother is nitpicking or when my mother is making comments about who I'm dating? How do I want to respond to that? I'm an adult now. What does an adult say when they're, you know, when they're making comments. don't want someone in their business about who they're dating. That's what you say to your parent.

You know, and I think sometimes we think, oh, no, I could say this to anybody else in the world, but I can't say it to them. I love what you said about not staying with your mom when you go visit. For so many people, that is the hardest thing, especially around the holidays. I mean, I hear so many people, oh, I'm going back to so-and-so to stay with my parents. Why? Oh, oh, I'm going back. That is a sign that perhaps don't stay with your parents. Is there someone else you could stay with? Is there a hotel or a place you can rent?

If that is your energy going into that situation, I can about guess how the visit will be. Yeah. I mean, I wonder how much the line of get over it, that's just who they are and then accepting that this is who they are. Like, I'm sure that's part of the struggle is you don't want to fall into this. Like, just deal with it. They're not going to change. And then hoping that they still will. I mean, I would be curious how much you think that point of just actually being like, this is who they are and I should stop expecting them to be different.

Like, especially when we talk about parents, like you weren't given the perfect parents that were there for you, your whole life and are not there now or whatever the issue is. And at what point do you not give up on that dream, but is it just a matter of like doing the work yourself to realize that it has something to do with you? It's their shit. And that's just like what you were given in life. It's like you have to figure out how to be happy without trying to rewrite the past, I guess. Yeah. You get to decide what you accept and tolerate and what you accept and no longer put up with. Yeah. And that's different for everyone, right? Like a problem for you may not be a problem for you may not be a problem. problem for your sibling. A problem for you may not be a problem for, you know, maybe some of your cousins or another family member. And so it's really based on our own programming, our wiring, our personality. You know, I've seen people be patient in situations with people where I'm like, oh, I can't believe you talk to them for that long. I'm like, I can't talk to them for five minutes. And I saw you standing there talking them for one hour. Oh, my gosh, you are very patient in a I'm not. So, you know, we have different tolerances. And I think with families, the thing that

divides us the most is this belief that we have to handle every situation in the same way. Right. Like everybody has to feel or do certain things with grandma or everybody has to feel or do certain things with their religion or everyone has to, you know, like the way that we're able to get along is enmeshment. You know, if the only way to get along is for all of us to be the same, we really don't get along because there is diversity in the world. When you go to work, when you are at Starbucks or any other place in a world, there are different things. There is not one thing on the menu. They're like 25. And it's the same way as we're creating ourselves and our families. Like, you know, I could be a lot of different things. I can disagree with this or agree with that.

What matters the most is, am I kind, am I respectful, am I communicating, am I honoring request, am I, you know, trying to facilitate some connection? Those are the things that matter. It's not, you know, whether or not you dye your hair or if you gain five pounds or, you know, these things is like, oh gosh, we have to mind our business. That's a big part of it, especially with the dog. else. Something that's helped me a lot in terms of accepting the people are going to be how they are is instead of every time I see a family member that we all have issues with every family member individually, instead of assuming this time will be different, I assume this time will be the same. And I have self-talk with myself of like how am I going to show up in this situation.

Like my brother likes to neg me a lot. It annoys me. I used to really take debate a lot. And actually following our episode with you, I had to talk with him about boundaries. but he's wonderful and we're all doing our best, right? Like, he's just funny and sometimes doesn't know where the line is and I get insulted. But I just assume that it's going to be like that and then I have self-talk accordingly. And that has helped me to de-escalate rather than going into situations and saying, like, I have this expectation that it's going to be so much better and then being let down every time, not by him, just in general with family.

Yeah, it's important that we reshape those relationships because your brother probably has been doing this stuff since you were a kid and, you know, maybe he thought it was funny. And it's like, hey, dude, it's not funny. I don't like it. How often do we say that? That there are things that, you know, maybe when I was a kid and I had this funny nickname, it was fine. But now as an adult, I don't want to be called this thing or I don't want to be reminded of, you know, sucking my thumb or whatever these things are sometimes we have to shape the relationship in the way that we currently exist. But with families, you know, we'll continue to do the same thing over and over and over until someone steps out of that pattern and says, hey, I know this used to be a thing, but actually it bothers me.

How often do we say that in family relationship, that it really bothers me? My kids, my oldest in particular asks me, how long do we have to kiss on the lips? I said, are you done with it? If you're done with it, it's now, right? Like, I guess it's until you say we don't have to. Like, you get to shift that. Like, I'm not going to be like at your wedding, like, kissing you on the lips if you don't want that. If you don't even want a wedding, I don't even know if you want a wedding. But the, you know, I'm like, it's a negotiation. Everything that we're doing is a negotiation. We have the opportunity to change it. There are going to be times in our relationship where we're doing this one thing and one of us decides to shift. Maybe we do have movie Thursdays and then, you know, something happens in life and we don't have that anymore. Life transitions. It changes and with that our relationships change with it. And we have to be open to that even when it's family. We can't stick to this old. version or this old script of, you know, what we want and what this person needs to do.

I feel like that probably even comes up a lot with the holidays, family traditions and maybe some older relatives or like, well, we always used to do the dinner at this house or this and they have a hard time like letting go. And like my family luckily has been able to really be like, well, we did used to do it this way. But then, you know, so and so had kids and my brother's married. And now we do the dinner at his house instead of it. My aunts like we used to and have just kind of had to shift it, but, you know, I think there are some people that really hold on to those things for whatever reason. I think any type of person, a lot of people are way more immovable and way less flexible. And I bet that happens a lot where then it gets blown out of proportion and like

grandma or aunt, whoever mom is like losing her goddamn mind because someone suggested doing something a little bit differently than you've done it for the last 10 years. Absolutely. that we get into a rhythm and we feel like it has to be that way forever. And in actuality, you're talking about, okay, we've done it this way for 10 years. And now there are 10 more years to be had and we are making a shift, right? It gets really interesting when more than one sibling has children and now that other sibling wants to do it at their house. And it's like, and we're going on vacation and we're doing this.

And, you know, I think those things are certain. certainly hurtful to some people, but it is also a natural progression of people building their own relationships and building their own families. It's like, yes, we are a family here, but everybody is sort of building into this other thing. And we may go in different directions and we'll come back together. But we're, you know, we're just building in these different ways, but we're always connected. And I think it's okay to say it's true. I changed my mind. I changed my mind. I don't want to do it like this anymore. I don't talk to you like this anymore. I want to go to this person's house for dinner anymore.

I changed. I changed my mind. And it doesn't have to be so emotionally charged and accusatory. It's fine to just say, like, we've been doing something like you said for 10 years. Let's try something else in the 11th year. Yeah. What I find it be really challenging is when people don't want to talk to someone in their family as much. Okay. That I changed my mind. I don't want to talk to you every day. But I think that just as in friendships, you may have a friend. who's a complainer or a person who, you know, requires a lot of emotional energy. And that could be really hard in families to sort of back away from those relationships when they've been consistent. How do we do it?

You know, it's what you just say it. It's doing it and allowing for that conversation to happen. You know, like, yeah, I have been calling us. I have other things going in my life that I'm focused on. and I don't necessarily want to talk every day anymore. I think, you know, once a week or once a month sort of works for me. Or you just do it and it sort of happens. I mean, it naturally happens with most of us when you move out.

It certainly happens with your parents. You've gone from seeing them or talking to them every single day of your life to, you know, most adults talk to your parents maybe a few times a week, but certainly not every day. They're certainly not saying, and I'm going to here and then here and then this. and then that. So in a lot of relationships, it just happens over times. And there's this sort of up and down of, you know, we're really close. We're stepping away. This thing happened in my life. I just moved, got busy. You're not going to hear from me every day during this move. But, you know, maybe in a month, I'll call you. I mean, I wonder how helpful it is also. If you really want to keep the relationship strong and healthy and this person is a priority in your life, you just can't talk to them every day anymore. Like even if we talk about mom and daughter, for example, and you just set up. the phone date weekly, bi-monthly. I mean, my mom talked to her mom every Sunday for my whole life.

You know, for an hour, I knew she went upstairs in her room and she talked to my grandma. And I mean, I'm not saying that stemmed out of any sort of lack of talking. But I used to talk to my mom three times a day. You know, my early 20s, I'm like, you know, the meme of like, you can't make a dentist appointment without your mom. You're like, what's my health insurance? Who's my doctor? You know, you're like really reliant. And my mom certainly noticed over the years, we just talk less. I just need her less. And she is like stable and healthy enough to realize that's a beautiful thing. I'm self-sufficient.

I don't need to call her three times a day. But I understand as a parent could feel that they're losing you. And I could see a world in which it's helpful just to know that you're committed to like what you can commit to. So they don't panic and be like, I'm never going to talk to her again. We're not going to talk for a month. So. Well, that's why communication is important. You let them know, like, hey, we haven't talked.

I've had a lot of things going on. I will call you on such and such. Or let's plan to catch up Friday. I think before we got on this call, I had two text messages from cousins. And I did have to send a message and say, oh, yes, I miss your call. I will call you back later this week. I didn't even say today because if I'm thinking about the day, I actually can't. I don't have time today.

But at some point this week, I will make time. to do that. So it is about just, you know, maybe keeping people in the loop and not saying like, oh, you know, sometimes if you miss a call, just sending someone a text and say, hey, saw you called, I'm in the middle of something. I'll call you back when I can. You know, just keeping that line of communication open is really important. But also, you know, you shouldn't feel pressure obligated to have to communicate with people. And in, you know, some situations, there is a pressure or obligation to answer the phone or call right away. And some people will train you to be that way. They will say, why did you answer your phone? I called you. And again, you're an adult and you have

busy things in life and just communicate that. I'm at work. And it's very hard for me to talk at 2 p.m. during the day. I'll call you back when I can. Yeah. I've had to have those conversations with my family when we got so busy. And even with my brother, I feel like his feelings would get hurt when I just couldn't. So I had to kind of be like, this is the most important person in my life. I need to communicate more when I have a busy week and I missed a couple calls and, you know, it's like a joint effort when both people really do care. I guess there's also a world in which you're like, I don't want to talk to that cousin. I don't care. And I'm not going to respond. But yeah, I mean, there is that. Well, we'll get into just actually exiting these relationships.

But I do want to have one more question before we move on to that. And it's, I think we talked about us a little bit the last time we spoke and you talk about it and set boundaries. But, you know, when we have these conversations with somebody where we say a thing, we can't really take back. We say it intentionally. So, for example, you say to your mom, I think we need more boundaries. Or you say to your sibling, I think that you make fun of me every time we talk. And I don't like it. And the person's response naturally, normally is this is going to change the nature of our relationship. I'm never going to forget that you think this about me. And I think it can feel, it is an attack on that person. So I understand that it feels like an attack. But

but I'm curious what your input is like, where do you go from there? Because, you know, if you say to somebody, I feel like you make fun of me every time we talk, their response is like, well, then I just won't tell any jokes around it. Right. That's a bad- Sorry, you're so sensitive. Yeah. Are you my brother? It's a bad cycle to get into. And so, like, I'm just curious, you know, how do you deal with somebody coming back to you and saying,

like, well, this changes the relationship in a bad way for me. I think that's an interesting question because if the relationship is meaningful, I think you can move past the discomfort of that acknowledgement that there is something being done that you don't like. If the person can't release being offended and move towards reconciling and repair, then that is a problem outside of your control. We often have issues and relationships, be a dating relationship. You want to be able to say to the person you're dating, hey, I'm. I don't like it when you're always late to stuff that we have to go to. If they can't receive that, you know, it's like, okay, so I can't talk to you.

Because that's what you're creating. If you're going to someone and you're saying, hey, I'm having an issue around this thing. When they push back, they are saying, you can't tell me any issues about our relationship. I can't receive information. So if you have any issues, you need to work. out with yourself and not me because I'm never an issue. Whatever I do is never going to be an issue. So if you can't figure it out, it's on you. You're the person who's too sensitive. You're the person who's whatever. You need to figure that out because I can never be too loud. I can never

make inappropriate jokes. I can never be late, you know, which is unfortunate, but it's also, it goes back to people having their own stuff. And in our families and outside our families, some people can't receive information. They cannot receive feedback. Some of those people are family members. I mean, we have one family member that I would use the word estranged, and it is a person who cannot take fault with anything. You know, it's the unfortunate situation of someone that is so far from being able to realize their role in anything. And that's just what it is. I mean, it certainly wasn't a matter of my family being like, get out of our lives. You know, it's just kind of over time turned into that. And I'm not saying that that's everyone's story. But when I think

about the one family member we have, it's like the one person that I've known my whole life that can't actually take feedback, take a note here, critique, yes, and have any relationships. There's a common denominator there. So it is unfortunate because you're like you're so far from even the baseline of changing if you actually can't see your role in anything. Like, we're so far from even getting better. So I also have a few. You have one. I have a few family members like that where there's one in particular who is pretty verbally aggressive. And they were complaining to me once about, you know, so-and-so not answering their phone. And I'm like, didn't you call and curse them out on their voicemail? No, I don't remember doing that. I'm like, okay. And then they called

and cursed me out on my voicemail. I said, oh, yeah. And they're like, oh, well, you didn't. I'm like, yeah, you can't make people answer their phone. Like, that's just wild behavior. And so when there's like a reason for doing things, like, oh, it was because it's like, it's still not good behavior. It doesn't make it justify because you have a reason. It's not like, you know what? It's justified now because your feelings were hurt. Now you can do it. It's like, no, you still can't do it. still can't call people and curse them out of their voicemail. I like that a lot of this is just that you have to manage your expectations and your own behavior because I have a family member. It's been a lifetime of work for me. I've never ever said anything

to this person that they've said, like, I can see why you might feel like that. And it's a lifetime struggle of like never being validated. And at some point, you have to just like exit the situation, not permanently. At least for me, I just had to deprioritize what this person's views were in my life. all I can do is manage myself because if somebody's not willing, like you said, to manage their behavior and hear you, then there's nothing else you can really do there. Yeah. And it's re-injury to self to go to this person and expect to be validated. Sure.

To go to a person who has never and who is showing an inability to validate you and expect some level of, oh, I did that. Oh, my gosh, I can't believe I did that. You know, it's not going to happen. And often when you do that, if you, I'm going to go tell this person what they did. I'm going to go tell this person what they did. It starts to feel like maybe it's me. You know, it creates like a gaslighting situation. So there are times when we need to just sit with that information and not go to the person who's causing the issue because I don't want to say they don't care, but they certainly don't have the ability to facilitate any help or healing. For sure. We wanted to talk to you about guilt and shame. And I'm sure, you know, I know this is in the book and you probably deal with a lot of clients that they just feel like a shame surrounding not having these perfect, strong relationships or guilt around not wanting to do whatever it is with this family member. I mean, those are two emotions that really probably come up a lot. And then you feel them internally. And then you're also getting that. You're being guilted or you're being shamed by the family member or member. members. Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, because we all have different levels of tolerance, there may be a family member who is not as bothered by whatever thing. And so they will encourage

you, oh, you know, you should call them. When they say that, they're just joking with you. It's not, you know, so they'll then, you know, try to force you to have some engagement or, you know, more connection or get over it, this thing that's going on. And it's really important for us to advocate for ourselves and to say, you know, I understand that this is not an issue for you, but it's certainly an issue for me. And whether or not you want to, you know, address this person when these sort of things happen to you has nothing to do with me. You know, I am choosing to do whatever, you know, so I'm choosing to not invite this person. I'm choosing to deprioritize them. I am choosing to whatever that thing is because

they are operating on their own program. They're coming from their space of maybe having some of this. All families have to stay together no matter what. It's okay. It's your brother. So I'm not operating on your program. Like we're in two different spaces. I'm not trying to think like you think about this situation.

I have my own internal processing of what this feels like for me. You have your own internal processing of what it feels like for you. I think about this often with sibling relationships. Parents will get involved and they will say, well, it's just your brother and it's like, parents should have a different perspective of their child. Your perspective of your sibling is different than what your parents have of their child. Their hope is, I'm going to have these kids, are going to get along, things are going to be wonderful. So when that doesn't happen, they're going to try to force it.

Like, that's a natural, like, say sorry to your sister. Kiss your brother. Call your brother on your birthday. I think there's some shame associated for the parent of not having a sibling relationship that is reflective of love. Even if the personality of one or more people in that relationship is difficult. Even if they see, you know, someone being harmed, it could be hard. hard to acknowledge that because guess what? You just want to put up this front of getting along and having a certain type of family. And it's like that in many situations, you'll have people who,

you know, whatever, their parents, their siblings, or whoever, there's a lot of shame around acknowledging what is going on because we feel like a part of it. You know, to acknowledge that a parent is an alcoholic. It almost is like saying there's something wrong with me. Like I'm doing something. Clearly you aren't the person with the issue, but you see it as a reflection of yourself, not as this separate thing. When you have a person who is doing whatever in your family, we treat that as a reflection of us, not as an individual operating in the world doing anything. I just love this notion of like saying to someone calm like, this might be okay for you, but it's not okay for me. And I think we've all had a friend or a sibling or a family member just say like, what's the big deal? Why can't you just get over this? Or why can't you just move on from this? And I love the notion of just saying, like, maybe you can. And that's cool. That's how you operate in the world. That's fine. It doesn't have to be okay for me. I also just, I really think it's important to remember that your siblings,

you're having a fight and you just want to tell your parents and you just want them to see your side of it and realize that you're the victim here, you're being antagonized or whatever. I think what you said is so helpful to remember that parents' ultimate goal is for you to get along. So they're operating out of that mindset. They might not even be hearing the issue because they're so focused on adjusting my kids to get along. I feel like a failure as a parent if they don't. So it's like you want to be like, mom, are you not understanding how he hurt my feelings? And your mom's like, no, I really don't care. I just need you to make up for me. So it's almost like realizing where it comes from, you know. I noticed myself saying that to my kids.

My kids are at the age where they argue a lot and they'll come to me with an issue. And as soon as I hear it roll off their tongue, I'm like, hey, I'm not concerned with the issue. Work it out. I'm not intervening because if I intervened, it would be a full-time job and I wouldn't be here talking to you. It'll be me. Put her block down. Give her back to Udo card. She actually won.

Your foot was on her. arm, you know. Right. That would be your whole life. It would have no more books from Nedra. Yeah. And what would I even talk about? What would I even talk about?

One of the best gifts that parents can give our children is conflict resolution skills. I didn't even see the Uno game. I didn't even see it. I wasn't even there when your sister said this in front of your friends. Like the same way you will work it out with a friend, work it out with your brother. That is really helpful. Yeah. Every time I say to her, I try to almost never bring up conflict with my brother,

or she's going to say the same thing to me, your brother loves you, he thinks the world of you. He's so proudy. I'm like, I know that. And I don't care. That's how what this is about. I mean, you know I can bring up to my mom because you know how my mom feels about me. You're the, Ashley's the number one.

And Ashley's mom's like, I totally get it. Let me talk to him. He's obviously in the wrong camera. My experience is the opposite. My mom is like, your brother is clearly right. I don't know what the issue is. I don't need to hear about it. Honestly, put it back in the box because he's right.

So just apologize. She's different vibes. Yeah. Oh, wow. Can we maybe wrap this up by talking about like actually ending relationships with people who won't change? Because ultimately, I think the goal is to stay in these relationships. I think you really sacrifice a lot of community and your dreams and wishes of what you want

for a family. If you do end these relationships, can we talk about? about maybe making that decision? Absolutely. It is one of the hardest decisions that many people make to end some of these family relationships, particularly if it is a parent or a sibling. I would say it's probably easier to end, you know, some of the extended family relationships. But certainly with parents, it can be very hard because what we're taught is,

it's your mother, it's your father. and there's almost nothing this person can do that would warrant you not having a relationship with this person. But, you know, there are plenty of people in the world who do things and you see like, oh, this person had a kid? Oh, my gosh. If they're doing this in the world, what type of father? What type of mother could this person have been? So it's not like, hey, we're telling everyone to have relationships with people who are great. we're just telling them to have relationships because of the title of this person, right?

But all parents aren't nurturing. Some parents are abusive. They are demeaning. They steal from their kids. I mean, all sorts of stuff. It's not like, oh, my gosh, like all parents are great because they had kids. What a wonderful choice. It's like, no, that's not true.

And there are some things that parents haven't. repaired. There is certainly not anything that, you know, they're reconciling with their children. I think there's a difference between a parent who, you know, cause some damage in childhood and a parent who caused damage in childhood and is continuing stuff. It's not like once you turn 18, all the trauma goes away. There are some parents who are continuing to do some of these things that they've always done. And people may get to a point where they say, I don't want any more of this. It's been 32 years of whatever this is. This is not a relationship that's improving. My mom has whatever issue or my dad has this issue. And it is best for me to not be in this relationship. I mean, it's tough. I also just want to validate how hard it

actually is to anyone listening. And I'm sure that's where the most guilt and shame comes in. Like, how could I be such a monster? I don't have a relationship with my parents. But it happens and if it's damaging, you don't have to be in it. My mom and I have taken a break from speaking to each other. The longest we ever went was almost a year. I feel like shaky talking about it because she took care of me growing up. We just needed a break from each other. But it was humiliating to me when I would talk to people about like they would bring up their

moms and I would say like we don't speak to each other. And ultimately that was not the path I wanted to take forward and I did want to heal things that and I'm really proud of that. I'm really proud of where we are today. But we took time off, and it is embarrassing. I'm sure it was embarrassing to her. Neither one of us wanted this to be how it was, and you sacrificed a lot of community around you by doing that.

And I think that at least for me, it's important to extend the message that, like, just because it's for now doesn't mean it needs to be forever. Sometimes it does. But we sort of took a break and realized that wasn't the path forward we wanted. But it was a reset, and that was fine for them. You know, I think about folks who have parents who are still in addictions, who are still working through mental health issues that are

undiagnosed, who may have some pretty severe personality issues. And that's where you tend to see a lot of people exiting the relationships. Because there is little hope when nothing is shifting within that person's world. It's like you're getting more and more and more of what you've already received. I can say that with parental relationships, it can be easier for people when at least the problematic behavior has stopped. People do change with age. The parents you had growing up, they don't have to necessarily be that as an adult because

you're not irritating them as much. You're not, you know, you're not constantly. them as much money. You're not, you know, like, so these things change with time. But if they want to, if the person wants to change, and for some people, those things are not getting better. And when we encounter folks who don't have a relationship with someone in their family, we have to practice compassion, especially when you come from a good family. And I've heard some people say, I can't imagine never talking to my mother. But you also can't imagine having this person. mother. Yeah. Right. You're speaking, yeah, you're speaking from the space of your knowledge base,

which makes sense. If I had your mother, I'd never stop talking to her. You know, it's like so. Yeah, that's not very helpful. It's not very helpful. We have to allow people to share their stories. And if we don't understand them, there is always room to say, wow, that sounds really tough. This just comes up a lot with our audience since the beginning of time. It's just really having different values than your parents. I mean, whether it's your lifestyle, whether you're not living the heterosexual lifestyle they thought that you would or political values or beliefs and views on life and disagreeing there. I think we see that so much around, you know, political cycles going home for the holidays, but it doesn't have to be just that. But I think that's really hard for people to navigate.

A, like not being able to comprehend your parents' values and beliefs or them actually not accepting your lifestyle. What's really important here is how do they treat people who have a dissimilar lifestyle? It's not that our values are different. How do you respect people with different values and you can let people know how you want to be respected? We may disagree about politics, but here are the things we can and we can't talk about. If, you know, this is where the boundary setting sort of comes up because sometimes when we have different values, we can be so dogmatic towards other people who have another value. And it's,

you know, it's unkind. It's mean. And so it's really important to focus on, you know, you can think whatever you want to think, you could live in a tiny home and I could be a mansion person, right? Like, I don't have to come to your house and shame you. Like, our values are apparent. But do I need to shame you for your value or do I need to, you know, find my place in your tiny living room and eat? So it's a matter of being respectful to people even when your values are different, not trying to control the lives of other people. And I think within families, it's like, this person is this. We have to make them more like this. When in actuality, it's they're allowed to be whoever, whatever, whatever, they're.

want to be and operate in the world however they want to. We hope that it will be respectful and not harmful to other people, but there are certainly room for conversations around how to be more respectful and relationships that are meaningful to us. I just think of someone if they're gay and their parents are super religious and believe that's wrong. We see that a lot of like how do you survive an environment where you feel like you're constantly being judged or not accepted? And we've heard everything from parents obviously changing for the better over time and then never going home. Yeah. So I live in the South.

So this is a common dynamic with some of my clients. And I like to work with parents of teenagers because that's where you can really sort of shift this, that this isn't anything you need to accept. You don't need to make it your value, but you still need to respect your child's choice. you need to respect their lifestyle. If they are in a relationship, you don't need to say, oh, this is a phase. This is a, that is disrespectful. You don't have to go and mimic the same behaviors in your own life at relationships. Like you can be respectful without, you know, taking on someone's value or trying to demean them or change who they are. And I think sometimes, particularly with the LGBT community, there is this idea that, oh, because of my religion, I can't allow you to be this way.

It's like, allow. What are you talking? It's happening. It's nothing you can stop. You can respect me and we can continue to have a relationship, but you can't change who I am as a person. And I think when, you know, you talk about it in that way sometimes with parents. which I would like to say we've had some successful conversations where the parents starts to see that it's actually a little bit abusive, especially with teenagers.

You know, some of the things that they may say and do, I'm like, you kind of teetering on emotional abuse here because what you're saying and doing is really demeaning, you know, children who are LGBT have a higher rate of suicide. And this is something that as a mental health professional, I have to watch out for. And I don't want you talking to them in a certain way because of your values. At the end of the day, you want your child to be alive and well. Alive and well. You don't want them to be, you know, straight and absent from your life. Right.

What's the alternative? Like, what are you trying to create here? So when I talk to parents in that sort of way, they start to understand it. You know, you can have a conversation with a teenager or with an adult child without agreeing with everything they say. Just ask them about who they're dating. It still matters. You don't have to, oh, I'm so happy you're dating.

No. But you just have a conversation with your child as you would whether they, you know, were straight or not. Sure. You know, I think there's this idea that if I shame them enough, they'll change. Right. They'll just never come home. Like, it's like run the numbers on this. That never has happened in the history of time.

What you do is just lose your child. Absolutely. You lose your child. I think we saw this last summer with the abortion ban, you know, and people's religious beliefs diverting. And I saw this with a girlfriend in mine where, of course, she believed that all women should choose whatever they want. And her father has pretty strict religious beliefs.

And it was really antagonistic, I think. And I think that it's helpful language to say you may not agree with this, but you will respect it. I'd like you to respect what I think. Yeah. And, you know, like you said, the alternative is that we don't speak and nobody wants that. That's a terrible alternative. And you, I have to ask this, because you mentioned it early up top of like estate squabbles and money. And those to me are like relationship enders.

I mean, I was randomly in an Uber the other day in my hometown. And the Uber drivers started going off about it. sister and like he needed to get it out, you know, and they don't speak. And I feel like it stuck with me when you said it earlier because that's so big and money just can ruin relationships and estate and things like that. And I'm just curious with your clients, do you see compromises there and relationships work out? I'm always just curious how you do it without really bringing in some sort of like moderator. You know, if there was a healthy relationship to begin with, people can usually moved through the estate process in an amicable way. What typically happens is people are not very

forthcoming with their desires or they're not treating things fairly, which they can decide whatever they want with their money, but it could be helpful for them to write an ethical wheel to talk about why they decided to do certain things. So the people left behind aren't wondering, well, why did they do this? Tell them exactly. You know, I didn't give you $500,000 because I asked you to stop wearing pink shirts and you never listened to me. So guess what I did? I gave it to your cousin. All these years, I never wanted to give you this money.

You know, I mean, be bold. You know, it's like, but don't leave it to the people who are left behind to figure, why do they give that person this or why did my sister get this or why did I? It's like, oh my gosh, here you are arguing with a living about a person who is very, very intentional and now they're not here anymore. They just left a mess. Yeah. I think you just sadly enough see money come between people. Like people get so fucked up about it, you know, and it's like, I don't know, it's a shame to see. Yeah. I've seen it on both sides of my family. So yeah. I feel like every family,

literally has a story. Contesting like this. Like I don't know a family out there that doesn't have some money driven conflict. Totally. For real. But anyway. Well, now you're about this. was amazing. I can't wait to quote this for years to come. Thank you. We really just appreciate your time and everything and your insights. And we know that people will want to find you and your books. And your Instagram is fantastic, by the way. I like your soundbite about why don't you call me back. We quoted a lot. I think we use Nedra's like things to say over the holidays when someone like insults you like ways to. There was one. That's really interesting. I'd like you to repeat that. Like, that's an interesting interesting thing to say to me. And you repeat that. Like, yeah, there was there was a list of that. So anyway,

We just, your Instagram is, everybody should give it a follow. Thank you. Thank you. So tell everybody where to find you website and, of course, we'll make it available in the episode description. Yes, my website is nedra towab.com and, of course, Instagram, threads, Facebook, all of the social media things, Nedra to Wab. Okay.

Yeah. And guys, you can go to your website, get linked to the books and obviously wherever books are sold, of course. So, yes. They are both fantastic. We really appreciate. everything. Well, thank you for your time again. Yes, thank you. Thanks for having me back. Thank you. Thanks for coming back. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. All right. And you guys know where to find us. Girls Gottaeatat.com.

Girls got to eat podcast, both on TikTok and on Instagram. I am Ash Hess. Raina is reina. greenberg. And of course, vibes only. Vives only.com. Vives only on Instagram. And make sure you're subscribe to YouTube. Share with a friend. And we'll see you next week. How we go, guys. Bye.