Girls Gotta Eat - Happily Unmarried feat. Author Eric Klinenberg

Episode Date: June 1, 2020

We're talking with Eric Klinenberg, sociologist and author (and co-author of Modern Romance with Aziz Ansari), about the rise of living alone, why women aren't settling for long-term partners, and what life looks like when you're happily unmarried. But we're also discussing relationships -- how we choose partners (are we doing it wrong?) and what we expect from our partners (is it realistic?). Plus, we review Normal People and bring back That Took a Turn. We are also addressing race and our country's current state of affairs. Check out Eric's website with all his books and info, and follow him on Twitter @EricKlinenberg. Follow us on Instagram @GirlsGottaEatPodcast, Ashley @AshHess, and Rayna @Rayna.Greenberg. Check our website for tour dates and merchandise. Thank you to our partners for this episode: FitBod: Get one free month when you sign up at fitbod.me/gge. Postmates: Download the free app and use code GGE for $110 of delivery credit for your first 7 days. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And so all these things coming together means that women aren't stuck in relationships that they don't want to be in. And women don't have to get married, you know, in order to have a sex life, in order to be independent to have an economic life. And, you know, that that's a massive driver of social change. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Got to Eat. Welcome back. We have a little more somber tone today. We're going to get into it shortly. We're going to talk about some serious stuff with you guys, given what,

happening in the world right now. We are going to address what's happening in our country right now. Rain and are both going to speak on it. So I'll just start. I think that we're all aware what's going on right now. This was all spurred by the murder of George Floyd by a police officer in Minneapolis. We all know he is not the first unarmed black man or woman to be killed by a white cop. and he certainly won't be the last. And it goes without saying we are horrified by this. We denounce racism of all kinds. And we are going to dive into race deeper in a future episode.

There is so much to say. And we want to have a woman of color come on and speak about race and white privilege and intersectional feminism and being an ally and also talking about race with people you have relationships with because at the end of the day, this is still a podcast about relationships, romantic and otherwise. But today, we did want to take a moment to, of course, like I just said, denounce racism of any kind and remind white people that it is not enough to just be not racist. You should be anti-racist. That is not an original quote. That is a variation of a quote by Angela Davis, who is a political activist, an educator and author. So just want to make that clear.

But I posted a lot of stories on my own Instagram about this. I have a highlight on it. you know, we are posting resources on girls got to eat as well, and we will continue to do so. For me, from my eyes personally, I think the first place to start with all of this with white people is just remembering that as a white person, you can't begin to understand what it's like to be black and you don't have the right to tell black people how they should feel act, protest, etc. Those of us that are white are born with a privilege. And if you're defensive at the term white privilege, then we need to start there. So that's the first place to start. we like I said want to dive into this further at a later time

but we will continue to post stuff on social media and talk about it we are working on a fundraiser for our next virtual live show and we'll let you guys know about that as well and above all my main message today that I want to spread is like we have to vote like we have got to vote every single one of us we are living in Trump's America this exactly what so many people feared it would be we have got to get this man out of office we will discuss Joe Biden in full at a later date as well

I just have to say that Donald Trump is a brazen, racist, misogynist, and a liar. As one of my friends, Aaron Chooning put it, this is not a secret. This should not be controversial. He is incredibly dangerous to this country. We should all be fucking terrified of four more years of him. And I know that there has to be people that are protesting that didn't vote. And I feel like you don't have the right to protest this shit if you don't vote. You can do whatever you like again, especially people of color.

I'm a white person. I can't tell you how to think or feel. But we all have to vote. It is our greatest power as the country of the United States of America. And we have to get these toxic racist people out of office and work towards a better future for this country and actually make it great. So we have so much more to say about race. We're going to continue to post on social media. But those are my messages for the day.

And I know this is so much bigger than Donald Trump, but I still have to say that. And if you support Donald Trump and you hate this message, I literally don't care. if you can't listen to this podcast anymore, fine. Don't DM us about it. We've heard it before. We ignore it every single time. No self-respecting woman who actually cares about minorities and women's equality can support Donald Trump.

Those two things do not coexist and do not at me. I'm done. You know, I do want to say that, you know, to people, you and I do talk about all this stuff offline and I co-sign every single thing that you say. And the thoughts that you say, I 100% agree with them. So, yeah, don't DM us about it. And, you know, I wanted to say something about myself in the hopes that people learn from it.

I understand that this issue is not about me at all, but it is about changing the laws and institutionalized racism. And I think that that starts with holding up a mirror to your own behavior sometimes. And just to sort of share something that happened today. I posted something this morning on Instagram and I got a little blowback. And the posts had a number of things condemning systemic human rights violations against black people. And I said, I need to be better educated. But I didn't think the violence and rioting was the answer.

And the comments condemning the last sentiment that I said were they were quick and they were meant to put me in my place. And I read the comments and I talked to Ashley and I took the post down ultimately because my intention was positive. And the last thing I want to do is being sensitive to anybody. And I wanted to sit with it and think about what it meant and the words of the people who shame me for that sentence. And I really sat with it. And I took the time today to listen to speeches by black leaders and watch the news and listen to protesters on television and read the history of protesting. And I realized I've spent a lot of years of my life simply not saying much because I was afraid to say the wrong thing. And I've always thought that I was an ally to black people because I have black friends and I frequent black businesses.

And I believe that black people deserve the same rights and protection afforded to themselves that everyone else is afforded. And thinking that and telling no one doesn't really do anything. And I don't think I'm a terrible person. I certainly know that my intentions weren't bad. But I do know that as a silent bystander with privilege and a platform, I am part of the problem if I don't. learn from this particular situation. And I haven't been as vocal as maybe Ashley's been. And it's hard to know the best way to express your empathy and your anger and your outrage for the unbelievable brutality and inequality in this country. And I felt like it wasn't my place to make

statements about situations that I don't know enough about. And that is true. I shouldn't make judgment calls about a struggle that is not my own. And I understand that black people don't want a white person's opinion about the methods of protesting. Just as I as a woman would not want a man's opinion about things to do with my own body. So sometimes it's important to just shut the fuck up and listen and learn from other people who know more than you do. And I learned today that lesson and I learned to check my privilege, like you said. And I've heard the term actively anti-racist a lot this week. And I thought a lot about what that means. And racism is a spectrum, but you don't have to be murdering people to be a racist. And if you say something, if you learn nothing,

if you do nothing, it is also irresponsible. And I think this is the time if you haven't before to look at yourself and ask yourself maybe why you march for women's rights and gay rights, but not black rights. All of these rights are basic human rights, and we should obviously fight for them because it's the right thing to do. And I think the goal here is to change, and that change starts with looking at our own behavior. So I've done that today, and I co-sign everything that Ashley says, and we want nothing but equal rights for black people in this country and all over the world.

Brena, you got so woke today. No, I think you're awoke before, but you got really the first. fuck woke today. I really just, you know, it's, we all make mistakes. I'm not a perfect person and, you know, I meant to post something that was really supportive and people that are more educated than me let me know that, hey, this is language that maybe you shouldn't be using. And I, I don't like being bullied by people, but I listened to those words and I talked to you. And I took the time to learn a little more. And this isn't about being like, you know, again, this is not about me. But it is, I think, ultimately about being a better person. And this is ultimately what the people

that are protesting want. And I think that, I mean, they want change and they want legal change, but I think that that can start by just learning that, like, maybe you haven't checked your privilege and understood that you don't know certain things. And I learned those things today. And hopefully we'll keep doing more. Well, and I love the parallel you drew just because we talk about mansplaining all the time and, like, white splaining is a thing, you know? And I'm not accusing you of it. I know where your heart was out. I know that you were what you were trying to say. I also knew the type of feedback you would get from it. And we just, again, we got on the phone and we discussed it.

But after it was posted. It's, it is. It's that's what it is. It's like, do you want a man to tell you as a woman about your struggles or your body or your rights? It's like then that's the same as a white person telling into a black person. And I just, I want white people to realize that because it is the place to start. You know, it's like when I hear white people, get defensive about white privilege and like, but I've struggled to. And it's like, we know. It doesn't,

it doesn't negate that you have. But this thing that Kate Kennedy posted that I reposted it on my story said, you have a built-in advantage. And I, again, we will talk about this more. I know who I want to have on our podcast. I think she's pretty busy. And I don't even want to say and I don't even want to jinx it, but she is a black woman who speaks about all this stuff and white feminism and everything like that. And I just would die to have somebody like that come and speak to us. If we can't get her, we'll get somebody else and we'll really dive into this and talking to your friends even, you know, like a lot of it is white people talking to other white people about it. I said to you, I wish I would have talked to you before I posted that. And I wish I

would have just run it by another person. I run my text to boys by you. Like I think, I think sometimes you just have to say to another person, how does this sound? You know, even if you are well-intentioned, like, I think that you should be asking. And I think that, like, the simplest thing we can do is talk to our children about racism and talk to our friends about racism. And it sounds so basic and stupid, but, like, you can ask your friends, how would this make you feel? And I do think it's the same thing as, like, men telling women what they can do with their bodies. Like, just ask somebody how that would make you feel. Right. Exactly. And just talk to your black friends in general check in on them during this time. If you don't have any black friends, I do suggest you

work on making some. But yeah, have these conversations that may make you feel uncomfortable from time to time. So we're going to talk about it. We're going to get into a deeper at a later date at this point. You know, Raid and I are, we're enraged, we're heartbroken, were all the emotions at seeing what's happening on top of a pandemic. It's like Corona is just over now. We have new issues to worry about, you know? Like, I mean, be safe, you guys, but it's like, this took over the news real quick. Like, it's kind of crazy.

Like, it feels like we're living in a horror movie. It feels like this is the series finale of America. It's wild. And I'm praying for change. All of us are. Vote your fucking ass off. Yep. I mean, the anger that I saw, we'll move on from this soon.

I live in, I live in you. We're not going to deep dive. Just kidding. No, it's like us. We're not going to deep dive. Also us three hours later. You know, I live. in the East Village. I live right by Union Square

outside of my window all night where helicopters and police and protesters and things on fire and I hate that it has to come to that and I'm heartbroken. I sat on my roof and I watched this and you know it really it breaks my heart that this is what we have to do for equality and I

want change and I'm angry and it makes me feel terrible. Yeah like it's like the people that were oppressed asked for this peacefully for a long time. You know I mean this also wasn't the first riot. We had these in 2014. We had these in 2016.

I think this could be like next level, especially given the pandemic on top of it. But, you know, I said this on my social media too. Like Colin Kaepernick tried to tell us this every single Sunday in the most peaceful way possible. And people weren't having that either. So I can wrap it up there. I just think there's no perfect solution.

This is, you know, years, decades, centuries of oppression. I don't think there's like a perfect package. to wrap it up into. But, you know, I think you can at least start with yourself and be better educated and figure out how you can be an ally to people and help them. Yeah. Oh, the book, the book I mentioned say as earlier when I said white people have a hard time talking about race is white fragility. And we posted some other books on our Instagram story too. I guess we can probably do a highlight of those. But you can even Google it. Books white people should read about race. Buzzfeed had a great roundup. But the first one is like white fragility. And it's like,

it's a good place to start. But we'll keep you guys post it. it on more. And again, stay tuned for this episode. We have someone in mind. We hope to get her. Yes. This is not a one and done situation. We're not just going to talk about this once and never bring it up again. This is an ongoing problem. So I hope that we at least did some justice to this topic. But anyways, we have a great episode. We have a sociologist, Eric Kleinenberg today. He has written a number of books about dating and relationships. We're going to talk to him about the rise of being solo in America and single. We're going to talk to him about how we choose our partners and what we ask of them.

It's a really interesting discussion. I hope you guys really love it. I'm really excited to get into that with him today. Yeah, we are so excited for that. And we are going to get into our regularly scheduled programming with the normal stuff that we talk about because we know that's why you guys listen to the podcast. So I want to bring the mood down even more and talk about normal people. Beam, normal stuff.

Normal people. So, yes, normal people on Hulu. I absolutely loved it. It was like my favorite thing I've ever seen. I was so emotional after I was done watching it. But I do have a little bit of beef with you for not telling me I had to watch it. You were like, it's depressing. You won't like it.

I didn't say you won't like it. I said it was filmed beautifully. I said there's great sex scenes. I was in the worst place of my life that week. And it is, it's not like a light. easy watch. I mean, every episode is laid in with so many themes of like insecurity and growing up and sad. I mean, just, it's a heavier show. And I was having a real bad week. It is heavier, you know, but I think my fear was that it was just going to be sad for the sake of being sad

like Manchester by the fucking sea. If you love that movie, great. I literally don't care. It won an Oscar. You're allowed to love it. That was the point. I fucking hate it. I thought there was no point to the sadness. I think, of course, the acting was brilliant. Of course, the writing, you watched it and you felt depressed and I never want to watch things like that. So it wasn't like that. It wasn't sad for the sake of being sad. I thought that their relationship was maybe going to be a little more volatile and it wasn't. I honestly, I just think it's truly one of the most beautiful love stories I've ever seen. It is, it encompasses every single thing that you would ever deal with in a relationship from family, the sex, obviously huge part of it.

and which also led into like sexual fetishes and things that also tied back into family stuff and friendships and growing up and going to school and even career stuff and mental health, obviously, obviously, well, if you haven't seen it, but if you've seen it. So just like it was everything. And I mean, I don't, I know a lot of you guys have seen it. I guess if you really don't want to hear about it and you want to be totally surprised, I would just go ahead and fast forward maybe like four minutes. We're not going to dwell on this too long.

I never want to give people spoilers. So if that's, but ultimately, I mean, it's, I don't know. It's like, I don't even know if I'd say it had a sad ending. Like, it was just, it was so beautiful to me. Like, yeah, I fucking sobbed in the fetal position for an hour. So I guess it was sad. But like it wasn't, I mean, yeah, I get, I got, I feel like my heart got ripped out. I guess it was sad.

But it was like, in my heart, I know they're going to end back up together. I mean, they, and again, we're not giving anything away, but there's like this beautiful way she sort of sums up the future for them in the very end, like the last 10 seconds of the movie. And I sat on my floor and I re-recorded it, like, just over and over, or reround it over and over again and cried. It's just beautiful. And I also just, like, I heard somebody say that they don't, like, love the way that it ended.

And I was like, not everything has to, like, be wrapped up in this, like, perfect pouch, you know? That's not how life is. Yeah. And I think that people, you knew that going in. I knew going in that wasn't going to be a happy ending just from what people were saying about it, even, not really giving it away. I think you knew that was, I had a feeling it was going to end like that.

And a few things to say about it. We know it's a book. We know it's praised over and over. We know it's an incredible book. I may or may not read it. I don't know if you ran a, right it might read it too. And what you said stuck with me was that it was so beautifully shot.

Those sex scenes are the best I've ever seen. Because I, you know, I'm not a big porn person. I don't really need really graphic sex scenes. They were like perfect. There was like the perfect amount of nudity, the way they were shot.

They were so sexy. I was so turned on. I can't imagine anyone watching that to show and not being turned on by the sex scenes. And everything was just beautiful. I felt it in my soul. Like, I don't know another thing I felt like that about. Maybe a star is born. But a star is born is two hours.

You walk out and it is what it is. But this was 12 episodes. I mean, it's six hours of your life. I watched it over two days. I was like, I feel like I know these people. You know, when you binge a show like that, they're a part if they become a part of you. You know what I really like about sex scenes that relate to that type of sex? Thank you, yes.

It's like, it doesn't have to, listen, I like crazy wild sex, like saying dirty shit, flipping around a bunch of positions, but I don't really need that to come. Like, if I just really care about a person and, like, I know that they're just so into it, like, I will come just from how, like, passionate it is. And I don't need to, like, be in all these crazy positions. And I think that's the type of sex they, like, really showed. It's just, like, two people that, like, really, like, love and need each other. and like how good that can make sex.

Yes, it's just so beautiful and so hot. Also, I don't know if I'd watch this if you are going through a painful breakup, but it could be cathartic. You know, I used to love watching the movie The Breakup when I was going through Breakups. It's weird, whatever. But it will make you think about a person you've had that connection with because most people in their life have that person that you do feel like you can read their mind. You do have this like intense emotional connection.

that leads into really emotional, passionate sex. Like, you know, they kept saying, like, it's not like this with other people. Like, it's a really special thing you have with somebody, whether you end up with them or not. And if you've had that in your life, you can relate to those scenes, you know, and how really how beautiful sex is with somebody when you have that emotional, mental connection with them, you feel like they're a part of you, you know? I know what you're saying about those people, like, in your life that you just, like, have that connection with and I like sort of reconnected with somebody over the weekend and we grew up

together, went to high school together. I've known him for 20 years and it's nice having somebody in your life that just knows you that way. Like it's nice having somebody that like knows you as a kid, knows you 20 years. Like yeah, they know exactly like what you are like because they know where you came from. I think those relationships are like really special. So anyways, not to like beat a dead horse about normal people, but it is. I'm not done. They actually just reposted my story on Instagram. I didn't even tag them. They found me. I'm so star-struck by it. I started crying. I wanted to ask you something.

Did you feel like you had a scene or two that like especially spoke to you or made you emotional for one reason or the other? Like, I don't know. I think this is specific to like people and what they've dealt with in their own romantic relationships. There is a moment where they're like, they're actually in high school and they go to this like trashy dumpyard basically. And she's like, you could have sex with me here if you wanted to basically. And like what I took from that was she was like, this is this like really popular guy.

And I'm like a nobody. And I feel special just to like have you light on me in any way. And I would let you do anything just to, you know, hold your attention. And I like relate to like what that feels like in terms of being just like an insecure girl in high school and feeling like, I don't know what my worth is. I don't know why somebody would like me. I don't know that I like to that in the sense that I was like that all the time. But, you know, I think a lot of girls are just insecure and they're sort of willing to let guys take the lead. and do whatever they want in order to like seek value in them.

And it made me feel really sad for like what that must have felt like. Because I think a lot of people probably feel like that. Yeah, she was, it was interesting because she would always say these things to him. Like, you know, you have me. You know, you're basically like you're the one like I want to be with you regardless. Like, you know, and in the most like blunt way, it was kind of cool to see it. Nothing came out sounding desperate or pathetic. She was just like it is what it is.

Like I liked her the way she carried herself and her whole, her overall like demeanor. But the scene that like really got me was when they came back together and they realized why they broke up the summer before because they had this moment of him, him wanting her to ask him to move in because he couldn't pay for his place himself, her thinking he was trying to break up with her and nobody really saying what they wanted. And both people scared of being hurt and putting their guard up. and they ended their relationship because of their own pride and fear of rejection, ultimately. And then they realized it later on. And they just had this moment of like, of course I would have wanted to live with you. And like, why didn't you ask? And it was just this like, I felt it so deeply because we've all been in those situations of like,

you don't say the thing that you want to say or you don't understand what the other person is saying or this other person is beating around the bush and you feel like they're about to break up with you. And like it's not, that's not the case at all. and there were so much miscommunication that led to them breaking up when they were in love. And they, like, realized it in this moment. And it was just, like, the most heartbreaking thing. And then when he was in therapy, I was just, like, not okay. When he, like, broke down and you realized, like, why he felt like he was, like, why he was depressed,

and he felt like he was an outsider and he thought he was going to come to college and find these like-minded people and he did it. And, like, I was just not okay. It's some of the best acting I've ever seen that episode where he was like, does anybody care about this? I don't know. It's fine. Fast forward if you don't care.

I thought it was some of the greatest acting I have ever seen in my entire life. It just, it was phenomenal. Who are these people? I don't, they're very, they're not, like, well known. I mean, I googled them. I'm saying they're not, like, middle millions of followers. I mean, they've both been actors for quite some time. But, I'm phenomenal.

Tremendous acting. It's very moving. Do not watch it when you are in a deep, dark spiral, when you're coming up on your period. It really, that's what happened. I finished it. I was, like, literally just not okay. and then I woke up maybe like five or six of the morning

got my period. I was like, well, I mean, but you know me. I cried. I would have cried through, I would have been the same no matter what, but it was an added layer of emotion. But it's, yeah, it's so wonderful.

And again, like, I do know in my heart they're going to end back up together. A new sequel. I need to know. They're true soulmates. I've got to say. Would you? Also, Connell's chain. You know, like, they sold the chain for charity in Ireland.

For real? There was an auction for the chain. The chain. So he wears a chain the whole thing. There's an Instagram account, Connell's chain, and someone DM me. She might even have been Irish, and she said this went, they auctioned it, and it went to, like, a really great charity. Okay, I have a question for you.

Okay. So they're like 15, 16 when they start, like dating, whatever. 16? They're like seniors. Probably like 17. Okay. And they're like seniors in high school. Can you imagine still dating the dude that you were dating with you 17?

Oh. It's the guy that brought me to the Debs. The guy that I would like cut out of school with early and like take pain killers for fun. Like no. No. Definitely not. No. Oh, no.

But that guy, I mean, yeah, we had a great relationship. I've talked about it before. The first night, like lost my rigidity too. He like, he found me on Facebook. Like, I don't know a year or so ago. He found the scrapbook I made him. And he was like, you were always like so sweet. I was like, what?

You made a scrapbook for somebody. No, you did not. Say it swear. You didn't. Yes, I did. What kind of scrapbook? I actually used to have a lot of scrapbooks. My mom's a professional scrapbooker for one, and it's brothers of the family.

But no, I would make, I made like when I went to the summer college, they had made a scrapbook. Because back in our day, it was like pictures. It was, you know, I would just kind of, it was like a combo of like a photo album and maybe like a little vision board vibe, you know, like little cutouts for magazines. You cut out for magazines. And I would buy stuff from a scrapbooking store. I loved it.

It's like, and like I looked, he, like, he sent a couple pictures of the pages and were so embarrassing. It was like, our love story. You wrote, did you write out of the cover? You said, our love story on the cover? The cover, like, I look, the album, I sort of got was like a wedding album. Like, the album was like ivory and it had, like, our senior prom photo was framed on the cover. It's not that you're not thoughtful. You are, you're a thoughtful person.

You're just not like a scrapbooking thoughtful kind of person. Like, if you ever gave me. It's graphic, I'd be like, where this come from? Bitch who made this? Yeah, but I did. I made you collages and stuff. I made you a photo collage of the Raina Greenberg Starter Pack. You never even posted it.

I forgot. I should repost that. That was so great. And you tagged me in your dad's, uh, tractor video yesterday. Like, that's what makes me happy. Our love story. What? I just imagine, like, Matt walking into your room while you're making this.

You're writing our love story and glitter on a wedding album. your brother walks in. I'm like, now you wouldn't get it. You haven't even been in love yet. My brother would never let me live that shit down. Oh, my God. Okay, that's really all I got. I just had to talk about normal people.

And I mean, I, you know, recommend it to anybody, unless you're really going through a bad breakup. But again, it could be cathartic. I don't know. I don't know your life. I'm not watching anything. I got no books on.

I got nothing. I got nothing to offer. I've done nothing but drink for like five, six days. The Michael Jordan documentary, save the last day. Oh, are you watching it? Save the last dance. It's called The Last Dance.

I gotta say, Hulu is so superior. My three favorite shows I've watched during the quarantine have been all on Hulu. They're spit and fire. It's the first time I've stolen a Hulu password from somebody. I've never even cared about Hulu. I share mine with Ellen, which is fine.

But Hulu's interface is, they need to take a note from Netflix. It's just so fucked up. So she'd watch normal people. So when I went into watching normal people, it was like it started at the end, but then it was like every, the episodes were starting.

at the end because obviously she went to the next episode before the credits were over. Hulu just, they do need to get it together. Netflix figured this out. You guys can too. Netflix is like, fuck credits. Netflix is like the second that episode ends, you're watching the next episode. There is no lag time. You try to stop watching a show on Netflix.

Netflix has a perfect interface. It's perfect. Even HBO is sort of annoying. But you know what Ashley and I are very deep into insecure? Their episodes are not long enough. They're not long enough. If I don't see an episode of Insecure that starts with a three, I'm upset. Give us 30 minutes.

Just 30. I texted you there. I was like, it's 26 minutes. Fuck this. When I'm going to a 26 minute episode? I can't wait, though. I heard the last three episodes are going to be the best. I missed Sunday.

Okay, so I'll catch up on that. I'll get you guys some more wrecks. But that's what's going on. Really excited for today's episode. Yeah, we don't really have much announcements. We have new merch coming soon. We will obviously alert you guys. Girls' Gotty podcast for our tour schedule.

Tickets available in most cities. working on cities for 2021. Because you're almost half over. Okay. And we have, yeah, we'll keep you guys posted as updates happen on anything. I'm going to be at these shows. I don't care if no one goes. Oh, be there by myself.

I'm ready to get on planes. I'm ready to risk it. I'm ready to go. Risk it all for you guys. Yeah. Do it for the fans. Yeah. I'm ready to go.

I'm ready to never see my family again because of coronavirus. But I will definitely get on planes and perform for our audience. That's all that matters. If you guys are coming, we're coming. But be safe. Be safe and responsible. All right, guys, we are really excited today. We have a fabulous guest with us in the virtual house studio.

He is a professor of sociology. He is the director of the Institute for Public Knowledge at New York University. He's the author of many books, including Palaces for the People, going solo. And he is the co-author with Aziz Ansari of the New York Times number one bestselling book, Modern Romance. It's one of my favorite books about dating and how we find mates today. Please welcome to the studio, Eric Kleinenberg.

Thank you. Thank you for being here. Eric, did you write that whole book by yourself? I did the humor. It used to get the comedic force behind modern romance. No, we're so excited to have you. Oh, it's good to do anything. Honestly, it involves other people right now.

I'm saying yes to everything. I love it. I had that problem before this, but it got me into trouble. With like STDs. That was the sex joke. Yeah. With the coronavirus. No, I'm just kidding.

Well, yeah, do you want to tell us a little, Raina, you ask your favorite question. I mean, you kind of already entered him, but, you know. Well, every time we have a guest, we always, you know, intro a topic and then we ask people, you know, what gives you the right. So what gives you the right to talk about these things? Obviously, you have a pretty extensive background in research and sociology,

but tell us about your background and how you've researched stuff like this. Give us some more information. Okay, so the great thing about being a sociologist is that you get this excuse to live all these lives that you're not really supposed to be living and talk to people in all kinds of situations so that, you know, you're not just bullshitting all the time. And that can be hard because one of the hard things about being a sociologist is you're often studying things that everybody has an opinion on, like sex and romance and dating,

and whether you should live alone or live with other people. And so it's hard to make the point that when you're talking, you're actually drawing on science and research. But I would say the reason that I should have, a voice in this conversation is because I've spent like the last 20 years studying how people live and make all kinds of decisions, including how people make the choice to either live with another person or to live by themselves. Because as you said, I wrote this book about the fact that there's more single people and people living alone than ever before. And that's actually a huge

social change that people don't fully appreciate. And then I spent a few years with Aziz Ansari, working on this book about how, you know, the internet and social media and the dating apps have changed romance. And for that project, we literally went all around the world and talked to hundreds of people about the way that they're looking for love. And so today I'm basically going to draw on all that much more than I'm going to talk about my own experiences and struggling like everybody else. Well, I just, I love this being single thing. I mean, it's like I think people are shocked when I say like I might not want to get married. Like I don't picture a future with somebody.

There's a story out there that, you know, people who are single when they get into their like late 20s, 30s, 40s have failed in some way, right? The parents are a little embarrassed by the whole situation. There's some sense of a stigma. Actually, we've come a long way. It turns out that like in the 1950s, psychologists at University of Michigan did research on people's attitudes towards singles and 85% percent. percent of Americans thought that women who were still single, you know, past their 30s were either

sick, neurotic, or immoral. That was the best thing. And, you know, we know that we've come someplace because now you couldn't even ask that question on a social science question. Like, if you ask that, you would be laughed out of the room. And it's kind of amazing just how pervasive it is to be single. and honestly, I hadn't quite understood what a powerful change that has been for our culture until I started working on the project. But it turns out this, the argument I'm making this book is that the rise of single people and people living alone is literally the biggest demographic change in the last 60 or 70 years that we've failed to really reckon with.

Right now, almost 30% of all American households are one-person households. and in Manhattan, it's almost one of two households, which is crazy because I don't understand how anybody could afford that, let alone one of two people. Single women in their 30s, Eric. No, that turns out to be... Who have built a career for themselves. Right. No, but so that turns out to be a huge drive...

In the book, I make this argument about, like, the different drivers of living alone, and obviously, like, one of the enormous ones is the rising status of women. You know, both kind of women's, you know, mass entry into the paid labor for. which gives you kind of a purchasing power, but also, you know, women getting the kind of right to control their own lives and control their own bodies, you know, through not just reproduction and health care choices, but also, you know, no-fault divorce. And so all these things coming together means that women aren't stuck in relationships that they don't want to be in, and women don't have to get married, you know, in order to have a

sex life, in order to be independent to have an economic life. And that's a massive driver of social change. Okay. Let me get here to tell you about women, basically. I want to just let you know. We love being mansplained, too, about what you're here for. So I have not read the book yet, and actually isn't either. I bought it yesterday, and I've done a lot of reading about your research,

and it was so interesting. And one of the things I thought was so interesting that you talk about is that the assumption is that people that are single are less happy, they're less social, their lives are less fulfilling, and you kind of like flip that on its head. So I would love to hear like what people thought and what the actual research shows about being single. Yeah. So, you know, there is this notion that single people are sad, lonely, that they're social failures in some way. There's a, you know, a whole kind of set of cultural ideas that comes from, you know, many decades ago about, you know, just, neurosis and incapacity to be in a healthy relationship.

And I guess when I started the research for this project, it was actually going to be a book called Alone in America, which you can think about it as a really different idea than going solo. Yeah, totally. And it was based on this, you know, kind of lesson that I had gotten implicitly studying social science, which is that, you know, people living alone is a social problem. and that it's part of this condition of like America lonelier than ever, more disconnected than ever.

And like, and you still see this often in that conversation. The fact that there's so many people who are single and living alone is trotted out as like exhibit A for why we're such a sad species today. You know, like why things have fallen apart. And that was my framework for the project. And then I started going out and doing huge numbers of interviews, you know, with people of different ages. and the stories I was getting were really different.

Like, when I talked to people who were living alone, they were not saying, like, oh, man, if only I could find a husband, or if only I could find a wife, you know, or, like, I used to be married and now I'm single and I'm so much more miserable now than I used to be. I was hearing really different kinds of things. Like, a lot of people would say that ideally they would want to find, like, the perfect romantic partner.

But, you know, we are now looking for soulmates more than we are looking for just like someone who's good enough. and enormous numbers of people I interviewed said, like, they just felt like they were better off on their own than they were living with the wrong person, and they didn't really want to settle. And there's another thing that people kept saying to me over and over, which was very profound.

It was like people who had been in a romantic relationship where they live with someone said, you know, friends of mine are now really worried about me feeling lonely, but to be honest, there's nothing lonelier than being in the wrong relationship. Yes. The ruts that we hear about and we see the most are married couples. They're not. And then we hear of people getting divorced and then they come out of their like they get this new lease on life and they get new hobbies and new friends and new activities and they're thriving. And so when I picture like the sad, bored people, it's a married couple. And not all of them. I, you know, so I guess I feel like there's caricatures everywhere here. And, you know, like the truth is that, you know, divorce is. You know, really painful and there's a lot of hardships that involve, you know, being on your own. And the book is not, like, to be really clear, like, I'm not making the case for living alone. I'm married, by the way. I've got kids. My wife, my wife likes to talk about this as my fantasy book. You know, so, like,

I'm not making the argument to do something. You know, it's not like, I want you to watch the podcast to come home and be like, honey, I listen to this incredible podcast today. And I've decided. It's just the argument is not to be single. It's just that you can be happy. And when I think about some of the most anxiety I've ever felt in my life, it's when I was in the wrong relationships. And it was trying to make this stuff work and trying to push through conversations that I want to push through and trying to compromise with the person I didn't necessarily

respect or see a future with. And the anxiety and stress that was bred from that is almost, it's worse than any anxiety I've ever felt about, you know, will I find my person? Will I be a mother? That's right. So look, like, it's one thing to feel a little bit lonely when you're by yourself because, you know, loneliness at first is kind of a physical cue that your

body is telling you, like, you need to get out in the world and, like, go out and be with other people or make content, or like in today's circumstances, it's a cue that you need to get on Zoom. But like, you know, when you're lonely and you're with another person, like if you're feeling profoundly lonely and you're in a relationship and you're, you know, you're with a spouse, that's a really hard feeling and it's not really clear what to do. So I think you're totally right. And my impression of the debate about living alone and being single as a social problem is it fails to take seriously all the problems that people experience when they're in a relationship, right, when they're married.

We idealize one state and stigmatize the other state, and that's really dangerous. And so what I found when I did these interviews is like actually, and there's a lot of data to show this from surveys too, like people who live alone, they're more socially active than people who are married. They're more likely to spend time with friends and with neighbors. They're more likely to go out into public and to, you know, spend time in bars and restaurants and clubs and gyms, you know, public events, things like that. By the way, that makes this whole situation with the pandemic and the isolation much more difficult because I think a lot of people who were living alone and being very social suddenly found themselves living alone and feeling really

isolated and that's been that's been very hard like you know dates on face time are only so satisfying but for the most part I think you know living alone is a very social condition and that if you ask people why they're doing it they generally say because it's better than the other options I want to talk about like what it looks like the type of person that you are sociologically that you choose that because I feel deep in my gut that like I don't picture this life with this partner forever, which I have the perfect example of it with my parents. But I don't feel that. I don't see it for me. And I think other people are like I can't imagine a life without somebody. I'd rather be in a not great relationship than be alone. Like my I feel worthy that I have a husband and a family

and these things. And this was all I ever dreamed of. And I guess, you know, of course it goes in how you're brought up in things. But do you see different? and like personality types, like anything that makes people feel so differently about being married with the family as opposed to perhaps being single forever. So one thing to note here is like it's kind of a luxury to be able to live alone, right? So you need to have enough economic security and just kind of what general well-being to feel like you can take care of yourself, you know, living alone. That's a good point.

Yeah. I mean, so like a lot of people still are in relationships because just materially, it's hard for them to get by on their own. And if you remove the financial part of it, like I have girlfriends that just don't have a very, I don't want to say fulfilling, they just don't have a lot of stuff in their life. So the partner is the stuff that they need. That's right. And I mean, so there's a certain kind of psychological state that makes you more comfortable being on your own. Like so if you grow up in an environment where you, you're taught, like the only way to have a complete and fulfilling life is to be in the situation

and you buy into that idea. And, you know, and that is a, you know, by the way, like, that's fundamentally how most of us are brought up. And so if you don't develop some critical consciousness in some sense, like, oh, actually there's another way that I could live. You get trapped in that psychological framework and it's hard to break out of that too. So like, this is obviously not like a story about sex and the city. But that TV show, I think, actually did model a way of living for a lot of people. And, you know, help people.

It's one of many things in the culture that, you know, help people see that there was a different way to live. Yeah. Yeah. We love that they left. They let Samantha be single in the end. Like, which was so, that was the best part of the whole thing for me.

It was that you watched this woman that you've been watching on TV for years and looking up to decide to choose herself over this actually really great relationship. She was a powerful figure. And conversely, you see this other woman who was like this beacon of aspiration, choose to be shit all over and humiliated and then get back together with somebody. And, you know, I'm a little, I mean, Ashley and I are a little different in that. You know, I think that I can see a life being alone and being happy or being with a partner. but I also personally feel like I don't know that monogamy is natural.

I don't know that being with somebody for decades on end is natural. If I found that, that would be wonderful. But I know that I will survive if I have a couple relationships throughout my life. And that nothing terrible is going to happen to me if I have to be alone. So I think that, like, ultimately just not living in fear of that is a nice feeling. Well, you know, the norm these days really is that people go through transitions. in their life. Like, whether people get married or not,

typical American experiences different ways of being. Like, you know, you're with someone together for a while. You live with someone. You break up for a while. People get married. They get divorced. They're on their own for a stretch of time. You know,

then maybe they partner up again. There's just a lot of transition in American life. And actually, that makes Americans really different from people in other countries. Like, we're much more likely to remarry, you know, than our people in other places. It's pretty interesting. And by the way,

just like on this, on the predecessors, I talked about sex in the city, but in the book I write about Helen Gurley Brown, just like a very interesting feminist writer who wrote a book called Sex and the Single Girl in the early 1960s. And that too really like open people's minds to a very different way of living. And she made the argument then, she was writing kind of four young women saying, I'm seeing too many of my peers like race into marriage at very early ages before they give themselves a chance to learn and to live and to figure out who they are and what kind of life they want to have. And actually when Aziz and I did interviews for the modern romance book, we went to an old folks home. We went to like a senior center and we interviewed all these people

in their 70s and 80s about how they met their spouses. And basically like back then, you know, getting married was the only way you could leave your parents home if you're a woman, right? And it was certainly the only way you could like legitimately have sex. And so, you know, So all these people were like marrying when they were super young. And they were marrying like the first person who seemed good enough. You know, like someone in their building or their brother's best friends. Like that was just super common. And quickly too, right?

Like within a few months they're like making these decisions. Oh yeah. Yeah. And now it's like we've created this whole life stage, right? Like you finish high school or whatever. And basically from 18 or 20 to, you know, through your 20s in cities now the norm is to get married after age 30s, so maybe it's into your early 30s, mid 30s. You've got like 10, 15 years where you're becoming an adult, right? It's this extended adolescence. And, you know, for a lot of

people like originally you get roommates, but then like living, getting your own apartment becomes the way you make yourself an adult, right? The argument I made in the book is like, we don't get, we don't become adults by getting married anymore and having families. We become adults by getting our own place. Like I don't have roommates. I'm not living. with my parents. I'm an independent person. And now there's this big life stage and this whole set of experiences that like no one ever had before, literally. Well, I just think like sometimes people, I mean, what you said, it's about there's a certain way you're brought up and it's on you to kind of develop critical thinking and see another option. And that's obviously a great reason

for people to read your book. But I just want, you know, women, because we talked mostly to women, to think about the roots of like marriage and why it was a thing and why think about what really your dad giving you away means, you know, like you're a piece of property at your wedding. Like all these things are rooted in a totally different era. So, you know, think about that when you're thinking of like, why do I feel that marriage is necessary and having a family and things like that? Like it's all rooted in a totally different time. I would say that we have a ton of evidence right now that like if you are in a

healthy, rewarding, stable marriage. The goods that come from that are innumerable. There are all kinds of things. Like you live longer, you're healthier, you have more sex, you're like happier. Good marriages produce all these amazing things. The problem is a lot of marriages turn out to be not that good. And it's impossible to know at day one how that marriage is going to turn out. I like that Ashley asked you, like, what are the factors that affect somebody and how they think about these things long term?

And I think as I've gotten older, my feelings about, I think what you coin in the book is emerging adulthood. That like 10-15. But that's the concept, yeah. Okay. That 10-15-year period. Okay. Well, I learned it for you. So that 10-15 year period.

Yeah, it's yours. Where people have their own homes, get their own social life, things like that. That is a newer thing. my view as I've gotten older and had more options has changed. And I really remember distinctly, I was 22 years old. I met this girl, she was 30, and she told me that she had just bought her own apartment in New York City. And my thought at 22 was, that's really sad and pathetic.

My thought at 22 was, I can't believe you're just settling to live alone and just do this. I felt so sad for that girl. And as I've gotten older and made money and had more choices, now my thought is, how badass is that of you? Like at that, I thought at 22, this person is settling for being alone. And in my 30s now, I think, how amazing is that that somebody has created such a cool life for themselves? I just think that you just, you have different views for what you want your life to be at different ages.

So I actually write about this in the book, because it turns out that like women under the age of 35 are much more likely than men to buy their own place. And, you know, men tend to rent until they, you know, settle into a relationship. And I think, this is what I argue in the book, that the reason is that for women, buying a place is this, is this like source of empowerment. It's a statement about, you know, who I am and how I want to live. Like, I'm not waiting for some man to account my adulthood as, you know, starting. Like, I'm going to get on with things and just, like, create my life. And I'm fine.

And so it's like this incredibly powerful, symbolic act and also very material. one that any and you can totally see the difference by gender i have a question for you this is even for my own my personal self i mean rain and i you know we're in our 30s and i think about my life should i should i not get married and what it looks like at 50 and what you know 60 and i you know i think nobody really wants to die alone but let's not go down the road that far but even like at 50 i mean did you talk to women that chose to never get married oh yeah so the book the book looks at people at different age groups. And so, you know, it definitely considers like what, you know, people who are in their middle ages. And, you know, the truth is that, um, most Americans do

couple up with someone and settle down for some period of time. And that's actually true, like in Europe as well. Like, you know, marriage rates are down everywhere. And so people are kind of saying, well, if I want to live with someone, I'll live with someone. I don't necessarily need to have it be like, you know, legally, uh, established. Yeah, which is how we feel. Yeah, so, you know, a lot of people have lived with others. I think that, you know, so first I should say, again, there's another big gender difference here. Like, women tend to do better living alone than men.

You know, this is probably going to surprise you, but women turn out to be better at, like, building and maintaining relationships than men do. You know, they're better social capitalists. Like, men have a tendency to cut themselves off to not be able to express their feelings very much, to get lonely and isolated, and to not have great kind of coping mechanisms for that.

And so you see these kind of small worlds of women who support them each other through their lives. And I think that's a really big factor driving quality of life. I mean, I will say that there's like these checkpoints at which it becomes complicated. So one of the things I take up in the book is this question of like, well, what happens if you're single and you live alone and you know, you get really sick and you don't live with family, like are there people to take care of you in the same way? And that can work out depending on how you build your network, but there's less of that kind of built-in structure.

And so it can also be much more complicated. And also like getting laid off, you know, from your job is just much more crushing if it's you by yourself and there's not someone else who potentially has a job with you. And so, you know, I think at a time like, this, it's important to be open about all the realities here. Like, you know, health insurance, if you don't have it, but your partner does, that makes a difference. The way that we've organized American life puts a lot of pressure on you as an individual to be successful. And I guess I want to, make that point, like, in a lot of European countries where living alone is actually much more common than it is in the U.S., the welfare state and the health insurance programs and all those

things like they they give you the personal freedom to live the way you want to live no matter what. Like there's a weird way in which living with a generous welfare state and a big government allows you as an individual to be more free. I know. I'm getting a little depressed. I'm sorry. Should we stop? No, no.

Let's talk about the pandemic. It's a great point. Actually, I'm glad that you brought up the pandemic because I think that I am noticing, and Ashley and I joke about this a lot, our single male friends and our single female friends, my single male friends are like off the deep end. They look terrible. They are so unkempt. They're sitting around in like velvet robes like Howard Hughes looking like a homeless person.

All of them have gone off the deep end. All of our girlfriends are like reading new books, sign up for masterclass. They watch up in the editors every day. They've started a new business. They all look great. And by the way, it takes a village to make me look the way that I look. Men, all you do is just shave. That's it.

But we, and that's, I feel like that's, you know, we knew that. we knew that, that women are better alone. Yeah. Wait a minute. Yeah. Alone, thanks. Okay. No, like, then men.

At being alone. No, that's right. Look, so I'm a little sad to hear that because, so what are my, like, pet theories, which I have not been able to test, has been that, has been that actually, like, this younger generation of men is going to be better at all that stuff because this is the theory that, like, like, our parents and our grandparents, they were in these kind of conventional relationships for the most part. and there was a social division of labor where women were kind of in charge of managing the social

relationships like with family, with friends, with neighbors, right? And men had this other world. And like naturally women evolved to be better at managing social life because like the work fell to them in the old division of labor. And so my kind of pet theory has been that because younger men are on social media and like managing their relationships more. actively, you know, that maybe they would develop some different set of skills. I mean, they could be a little better than a different generation. Yeah, yeah. But I think you see, you see it with remarriages and when spouses die.

I think that you see, like, men, they remit. You tell me, but adult men typically, like, they remarry quicker. Like, when you see a death or even a divorce, it's like a woman might find her friends more and kind of do a different life and a man. will just remarry. Totally, because men are like, oh, my God, who's going to cook? Who's going to take care of me? Yeah.

And it's so interesting, because I interviewed tons of older people for this. And the women who are older and most of them had been married before and had lost their spouse, but either they were divorced or their spouse had died, they kept saying to me, like, at this stage of my life, I'm much more interested in having someone to go out with than someone to come home to. It's really interesting that you said that, and I love it because I look at my parents and like my mom, I know my mom is married, but my stepdad has had a job where he's been out of town five days a week my whole life. And she has this giant group of single friends and they go out all the time and that's my mom's priority is to, you know, go to movies and go to screenings. And she has this whole fabulous life, whereas my father remarried later in life.

And it's, I mean, I'll just be totally honest and, you know, shares me. information about my life, but my dad remarried somebody that I don't really like or get along with. And I'm really fortunate that that wasn't my whole childhood. That's my adult life. But, you know, he very much just wants somebody to, like, clean the house and cook for him. The outcome of those decisions have reverberated throughout our family and caused a lot of problems. And so, you know, that need to just find a body to help you cook and clean has had some pretty negative effects on our family. So it's just interesting. to me that you said that.

You know, I think you're not alone. It's interesting. Like, when I was working with his ease on the book, he kept saying, you know, the thing about comedy is like, I always find the most personal things are also the most universal things, you know. Things that you think of as being really about you are oftentimes, like, part of a big trend. Like, of course, the sociologist in me is like, well, wait a minute, we have to test that.

But I think what you just said falls very much into that because there are so many families that have been fucked up by, like, some man's needs. to just find a woman, any woman to come and do these basic functions and who like goes for somebody, even though they're in fact like fundamentally incompatible, even with their values. And that relationship then has this fracturing effect on the family more generally, right? Because now everybody has to live with that person who turns out to be kind of annoying and awful and difficult. And it's basically like there because like the man has some. Because he couldn't hire a maid.

That's why. Well, okay. And I talk about my grandparents. they got that my, my grandmother remarried her high school sweetheart after her spouse passed. But it's because her high school sweetheart's wife died and he was like, I got to call somebody. So he like, now that I'm thinking about it, my step grandfather, who I loved and I grew up with because my mom's dad passed before I was born. Like, his wife died and he was like, I got to call my high school girlfriend and see if she wants to get back together because I need to be with somebody. And it's like, now I'm just thinking of how that actually went down.

And it's so romantic. And he was like, I never forgot. God about you, but he went into the trenches. It was like, who is sickle and also widowed? My high school girlfriend. Yeah, actually, my grandfather, who's not alive anymore, and my step-grandmother, same story, like, they've been friends in high school. I think that's like, there probably was like a book that was like, you know,

if your spouse dies, go find your high school yearbook. Just like scroll through and keep calling. Yeah. And see who else is widowed. Does anybody know if Ashley's husband? is still alive because if not, I'm thinking about giving her a call. It's such a simple equation. It's like last person that you were inside of plus widow equals next spouse.

And all you have to do is be like, I never stop loving you. And the woman's like, oh my God, done. They're just doing the same thing they were doing like when they were 20 years old and needed to get married, right? Yeah. I just need to find the next person who's just good enough and that'll be fine. And to be honest, this is like a huge cultural shift that is part of the story of both going solo and modern romance, which is like our generations, we're not looking for like a good

enough person anymore. Like we are looking for our soulmates. I just want to hammer home what you said about figuring out how to build a life that you aren't totally alone. Should something go wrong or should you get sick? You know? And I think you see women that just kind of band together, our friend Grace, Grace Atwood, who also was a podcast. She's like, can we just all like, you know, sign something that says we're all just going to stay single and take care of each other? and live in New York City forever, you know, and I think you saw that. Candace Bushnell has spoken about that. Her and her friends, all just kind of like moved to the Hamptons. And you saw that in sex in the city. And I think I just love that. That it can look however you want. And you can

also find somebody and get married at 50. I mean, even Gloria Steinem was married for three years, you know, at one point when she was older. And I just think there's no, it doesn't have to look a certain way. And I just love that you said that because it's kind of like, you know, we could have this girl gang until, you know, we're 45. And then like one of us could get married for a little bit. or we could be living with somebody or we couldn't. I don't know. There's so many different ways. And I just love that people are being more open-minded about what it looks like.

So that's a very big theme of the Going Solo book is, you know, kind of historically, there was like one path, right? There was like one way to live your life. And it's like you either got on that path or you were weird, right? Or immoral, right? As they said, like, and honestly, like this Viking living alone, it does not happen. Like we have hundreds of thousands of years as a species where no one lived alone. And suddenly, like, in the second part of the 20th century, it becomes like this completely

common thing because of the rise of women, because of the rise of status and power of women. And so we are totally new at this. And now it's like you get to the beginning of the walk. And there's like all these different paths, right? And on the one hand, that's like super exhilarating. Like you can live your life any way you want. On the other hand, it's kind of terrifying, right? because, like, which path should you take?

And if you take one of the new paths, then it's like all on you to organize things for yourself, right? Because if you take the one path that everyone's been on before, there's like a bunch of things that you can do. There's 500,000 books. You know, everyone's going to throw you high fives. You're going to get tons of presents on your wedding. You know, you're going to have China. You're going to have so much China for the rest of your life. You know, like, you know, everyone, you just like, everything falls into place.

if you choose the other paths, which by the way, like, are getting more and more crowded, now you've got all this individual responsibility to put things together for yourself. And you wake up every morning and you have to say, like, okay, what is my life going to be? You don't have those structures supporting you. So one of the most important things is to make sure that you've got a gang, right? Like you need to have your posse. Ashley always jokes that she wants me to get back together with my ex because she knows I'll never love him more than her.

So it's a great relationship for her because, like, I will be, I'll have regular sex with a great person who's like a one. He is a wonderful person. He's very good looking. Regular sex, not good sex, but regular sex. And I'll never love anybody more than her if I'm in that relationship. Yeah, I'm pushing for it. Yeah. But I love that you said that.

And clearly the point of this podcast is we're always hammering that home, you know, like get that, get your gang and, you know, they should come first. Not, you know, you know, you know what I mean. Yeah. Of course, you're going to have a romantic partner and they're going to be your priority. But it's so important to keep those people around you. By the way, that's true. I think even if you get married. The problem people have is they get married and they forget about the gang.

Yeah. Well, if we wrapped up going solo, I'd love to segue into modern romance and one of my favorite parts of the book where I was like, I remember standing on the street being like, whoa. Where you talk about, you know, what we used to ask of our partners and what we ask of them now. And like you said a bit ago, you know, we looked for people that satisfied certain needs. And now we're asking them to be all these things. And you will, I'm sure, say it more eloquently than me. But what I really took away from it is you were saying, you know, we want somebody that's, you know, safe and feels like your home and your friendship and you're confident. But we want somebody that's exciting and thrilling and, you know, sexually.

Be different. Yeah. Right. And those are totally reliable, by the way. Right. And those are conflicting ideals. And I loved you talking about it. So it's your book.

you talk about it. I mean, basically, I think you nailed it. Like, our expectations are crazy. But, like, what we look for in a spouse are crazy. We literally expect someone to be all things for us. You know, we want, like, our best friend, you know. We want someone who's, like, you know, the best conversationalist, but we also want someone who's, like, always going to be new and different and surprising,

you know, and, like, that's true in terms of our interactions. That's true in our, like, sex life. if that's true. And we want someone who's like a high earner, but also not so committed to their jobs that they don't have time for us, right? Like we want someone who's like got tons of friends and is very social,

but it's also always going to prioritize us, you know, over everything else. Like the set of things we need and ask for from a spouse are crazy. And they're unprecedented. That's the other thing. It's like previous generations were really clear. Like, okay, like you are my wife.

You know, you are here for these responsibilities. I'm watching the games with other people. I'm like going out at Wednesday night. I have bowling with Sam. Like on Friday night I'm going to do whatever. We just have everything merged. And the really interesting part of this, which we touch on just a little bit in the book,

is that in addition to wanting everything from our spouse, we also now spend less time with our spouses than any other point. So what's happened? So what's happened now is like, Fathers, for instance, spend much more time with their children than ever before. Men are much more actively involved, but men are also working more than before. And they're doing more, like, they're doing all sorts of, like, they're doing social media. But what they're not doing is spending, like, one-on-one time with their wives.

And same for women. Like, we're all working more than we ever did before. Americans are working like dogs. And we're, like, busy taking care of everything, except for our romantic relationship. And so the really brutal combination is that we're like looking for everything and also not putting in the time in our relationships that you need to make a relationship work really well.

So if we are asking our partners to be all of these things, you know, what's the solution to saying to ourselves, everyone's human? No one should be able to give me everything because that's not fair. So I think that we probably need to have more realistic expectations about what we're going to get from relationships and to be a little bit more understanding of like, you know, ourselves and also our partners. And I think part of that is just like breaking out of the fantasy mode when you meet somebody. Because, you know, basically like too often in relationships people early on project all this stuff onto the person they're falling in love with.

and they developed it's like fantasy that the person is going to be all those things to them. And inevitably, you know, there is this period in which you realize, like, oh, man, actually, like, you know, he's not all of that. You know, he still might be great, but there's all these other ways in which he turns out to just be a human being. And you see this actually when you look at people's happiness levels in the beginning of a relationship. Like, there's, you know, that idea, like, there's nothing better than, like, the first six months of falling in love with somebody. like there's that period and like everything's amazing and all you want to do is think about that person and be with that person and like inevitably that starts to you know peter off and like like you start to go down into something a little bit more like yourself and it's like it's it's

really important by the way to not get married during those first six months which is like one of the things I always tell people not that I offer tons of advice about relationships but like basically Basically, you want to not get married before you're 25 because people who get married before their 25 are like so much more likely than everybody else to get divorced because basically you have no idea who you are and what you're going to be like before you're 25. We're changing and growing and there's actually something really good about waiting to get married until you know who you are and what kind of life you want to live and what you're looking for in a partner.

And the other thing is it's a really bad idea to fall in love and fully commit in the first six months because the first six months when you're falling in love is always, always going to be this like supercharged, you know, adrenaline rush. Yeah, it's like, you're on drugs. Dorphin induced like cocaine-like experience, right? Like, you're on drugs. And, you know, it's like a good thing, actually, that that doesn't last because, like, think about yourself when you're, like, totally falling in love with someone.

You suck at everything else during that time. I really suck. Ashley knows every time, like, I start dating somebody that's the end of me talking to anyone. I just don't respond to text messages or do anything. I'm the worst. You're like, you're a shitty friend. You're not like doing your best work. Like, you know, if you're studying your grades, like basically you stop calling your parents.

Like nothing else really matters during that period of time. And so like it's a good thing that we are not in that state all the time. And generally like what, you know, like what happens when you're looking for a relationship is, you know, you want to have that period. Because in some way that time together, that falling in love period, like that has to supercharge like the rest of your relationship. Like if you're going to get married, you're going to be drawing. back emotionally on that experience for like the next several decades of your life. Like, you know, you kind of need that thing. And obviously there's this kind of like sexual charge and attraction that you need to keep in your relationship over time. But you're not

going to get the like cocaine adult bliss out experience that you feel for the first six months over years. And so then the key becomes like finding a realistic way of being together that involves like understanding your own humanity and your limitations and your other persons, you know, your special person's humanity and limitations. And I think like that really matters for not expecting everything from them. And to the extent that you can talk to each other about like how to maintain your friendships and your social lives and to like where you can go get other things that actually allows you to be better partners to each other.

what would you say to someone to help them kind of release that idea? I mean, that might sound so foreign to somebody that they're like, wait a minute. You mean, my partner's not going to be everything in my whole word and they're not going to be my best friend. And then they're going to be like this hot sexual partner, but they're going to be, you know, like all these things. I mean, I guess first, the first thing I'd say is, is like, just know that over time, like, no, no society's ever expected that of their romantic partner. This idea that like we have a soulmate who is like our best friend and like a rock of stability but also like wild and exciting and novel different, you know, like that is a totally new idea. And it's kind of an idea born of a fantasy. Like it's a, it's a, it's a myth that you get that. I mean, there are, so it's it's not totally wrong in the sense that like we are no longer willing to marry our best friend's brother because he has. happens to be next door and we're 20 and we'd really like to get out of the home. You know, it's like we do have, we do have different ideas about what we're looking for.

But so, so there is this search. But like, this kind of goes back to the going solo thing. There is generally, there's definitely a problem for some people of feeling like, okay, well, if I'm going to like be single and like look for love, I'm going to optimize everything. And I'm not going to settle for anybody until I find like the optimum maximum. most awesome, you know, best jam in the jar that's available. And then like, if you do that, you could get yourself into a trap where like no one's ever going to seem good enough. Or like you, or like someone seems good enough when you decide for whatever reason consciously or unconsciously

subconsciously to like project all these fantasies onto some poor person who actually isn't really like that. Right. And then there will be a reckoning someday. So I guess like the first thing to say is just if you feel that that's your standard, that you expect someone to be all those things for you, you need to know that that idea has never existed before and that that's a very tall order for another person, you know? And for you. Yeah.

And for you, because you have to do that too for the other person. I don't want to be every single thing for another person, other than Ashley. Ever. Yeah, I guess it's just figuring out what, matters the most to you, right? I mean, and finding and looking for that. Like, some people, it is this person that's going to be a really loyal husband and father and companion. For me, it's like, if I can find that person that I'm just really, that excites me, that

challenges me, you know, mentally and that I'm not bored with, like, that's somebody that I hold on to because I think that, you know, looks fade and it's somebody that's their mind. has to stimulate mine and they really are going to be exciting to me 20 years from now. You know, it's like something about in their personality. That's what I'm personally looking for. Obviously, I want someone that's like loyal and honest and things like that. Yeah, so this gets deep into the, like, when Aziz and I were working on modern romance, you know, we spent a lot of time thinking about like the app-based dating culture and how that's

affected us. And obviously, like, one of the real issues with like dating apps is they push you to optimize on hotness. And it's like obviously you want to be sexually attracted to the person you're with. And that matters and has always mattered. Like even before apps, you'd like walk into a bar and you'd only talk to the people you were attracted to it. So it's like, you know, we used to swipe left and right, you know, with our eyes in the bar. But there's a way in which like the photo-based dating culture really like orientes us towards hotness and away from a bunch of other things that really matter.

the things that like if you think about it over the long term we're going to make a difference in terms of like how happy you are in a relationship right because like I know lots of people who married like incredibly hot hot people and like over time either like the hotness fades or it just like becomes less relevant right you know hotness to me is sort of subjective when you meet somebody in person and to me like I could get a vibe from a person that's not traditionally the hottest person that I'm just really attracted to the way that they carry themselves, the way that they speak, the way that somebody's like cologne smells, just the way that they smile and laugh. And I'm really attracted to that. Maybe nobody else would be. And maybe somebody would swipe

no on that person. But I, I mean, there's nothing wrong with dating apps, but I try to meet people in the wild as much as possible. We don't do it a lot. Yeah. Because I just, okay. So like, it makes me happy. So I, you know, I'm, I was married before the dating apps, you know, came around, really. But I'm not against them. I guess like the thing that, The thing that is he's not that he noticed when we were working on the book is like the problem with online dating is that people generally spend way too much time online and not enough time dating. Like people get really fixed on the app and they don't just like make a plan to see each other in real life.

And so you're like spending all this time thinking about like some clever thing that you can text or like an, you know, like what is framing an awesome picture. And then like you just give no thought into how you want to actually be with another person. The problem of like people doing really boring first dates, you know, like, there's this guy we interviewed for the book. And he would only, like, have Starbucks coffees on his first dates because he didn't want to, like, overinvest, you know, and didn't want to put a lot.

But actually, like, it's, like, almost structurally impossible to fall in love with somebody and to get interested in somebody, like, over a Starbucks coffee date. Because it's the most boring thing. Like, actually, what we do with another person is going to shape our experience. So you have to be able to put yourself in a situation that's going to lend itself to feeling excited. and really understanding the person in a way that's not just like an exchange of resumes. And so much first dating is resumes.

Like, pick even like a better coffee shop. Like that's the lowest, like go to the dog cafe or like go to like a indie thing where there's something to talk about besides the Starbucks that we've all seen the inside of a million times. We talked to this one. It was so funny. He was like, oh,

so my first date is always like we go to a, you know, we go to a bowling lounge. And I was like, we thought, oh, that's such a great idea. Like you go bowling.

Like that's kind of fun. like it's a little bit physical. It's kind of like quirky and weird. He's like, oh, no, no, no, no, we don't bowl. We just, like, go to the lounge because it's close to home. But you can people watch, like, I don't know. I've met with that. We have a whole thing.

Like, one of the big problems is, like, people go on what we call, you know, boring-ass first dates. And we started, like, asking people, like, what are, like, the best ideas you have for first dates? And we have this whole, like, thing we call the monster truck theory of dating, which is, like, basically, we talk to some people, of professor to Stanford, like, oh, the thing that is like the best first date experience that, like, takes you out of your comfort zone and it's kind of like quirky and interesting, you're

going to laugh a lot and have a good time no matter what is like, take your date to a monster truck rally. Yeah, that's my, if someone takes me to the monster truck rally, I'm like, that's my guy. I mean, how far is that, right? We talked about like going to David Busters and Times Square for a first day. Oh my God. I never want to go in there again. But we've joked about like, if somebody said to me, do you want to do that? I think that was cool. I would be like, that's a creative person. That's funny. That's cheesy. I don't know that I'm signing up to spend that much time on a first date. But like, I think at least I'm like, I see how this person's mind works. That's cool to me. Other people would be like, fuck that. We just have a life stage difference because like I associate

Dave and Busters with like six year old birthday parties and they may want to kill myself. But, but yeah, that's exactly the point. Like something kind of cheesy and funny where you're both going to have like, you're going to be able to go and immerse yourself, but also laugh about the whole situation. And basically, like, you know, one of the ideas is, you know, if you're single and, like, a lot of people who are dating are just fucking exhausted from the whole experience. Like, it's really tiring to be single right now.

It takes a ton of work. So many people would describe it as, like, a second job. And especially people who are, like, really intent on, like, meeting, like, the right person, you know, that that's the category for which it's, like, the most hard. So if you can, like, think about things that you really want to do, wherever you live. Things are going to make you happier,

the experiences you want, and then do those things. That's going to be such a better way of dating. You're also going to give yourself a better chance of actually falling for the person. And actually, I should say that that's kind of like the second, another big idea that came from this is like,

people are so quick to like swipe left. Once they've actually been on a date with someone, like we reject people way too quickly. and like we would talk to people who like would go to a date that they made on Tinder and they like sit down with someone in five minutes later. They'd be like, you know, I'm not really into this person. They'd excuse themselves to go to the bathroom and then like get back on Tinder. And all the best research shows that the things that make us really attracted to somebody, like the things that determine whether we're happy in a relationship or not are things that are kind of like pretty deep and personal and they tend not to come out like over lattes. You need to go on a second date and a third day. So basically like, let's say you meet somebody and you're not like just like dying of

attraction to them, but you're like they're kind of interesting and potentially attractive. Like it's worth doing a second date. You know? Yeah. And there's definitely, of course, deal breakers where you're like this person, I think they're hideous. They're condescending, whatever it may be. But if you enjoy it enough, like why not?

If you enjoyed yourself a little, like, and you found the person attractive. enough. I just think people, everything is overly romanticized of like falling in love on the first day and it's just so unrealistic. So the sooner that you can let go of these fantasies, which happen, one in a million, you know, their exceptions to the rule. But I think the sooner people can let go of those fantasies that you hype yourself up for this date that you might meet your soulmate at this first date that someone you met on an app, like the quicker we can realize that's not realistic, the better off will be. So one of the interview questions that we asked and we actually did this in focus groups, but we also, we worked with Reddit and we're able to start

these whole, like, subthreads on Reddit where we got tons and tons of people to respond. And one of the questions that we asked is like, have you ever fallen in love with somebody you weren't initially attracted to? Wait, can I ask you? Every woman is like, yes. Yes, men and women, I'm very curious what the difference was. Every woman. And every man's like, no, absolutely.

Men are like, the penis didn't get up. I was out. We talk about this all the time. So, yeah. Please tell us. I'm sorry. I feel like a really rude and shitty guest. You guys have to read all these things I wrote.

I'm like, I'm not, like I didn't do my research and homework before I came on the show. There's the thing we talk about every time. We can talk about this, but it's totally boring. We talked about it like twice, but we can't hammer it home enough.

Let's talk about it. We love this shit. That's like men can grow on a woman and like a guy is based on initial attraction. You tell us, you're the time. I mean, it sounds like you know the answer,

but basically it's not, it's not just, women who do it like men it happens with men also and the point i was going to make is that well like people came what people said overwhelmingly is like not only have i gotten attracted to someone i wasn't initially attracted to but like once i got attracted them it was like this crazy intensity yeah the the power of that relationships was was so much more than i thought it was going to be you like discovered something well also because you're attracted to something that's really like durable and core and meaningful in the person it's like you're not it's not it's

not just like the most superficial thing, which tends to fade. You know, it's like you've gotten yourself attracted to something that's really like fundamentally who that person is. I met this guy last summer and I spent a lot of time being like, I don't know if he's for me. And we were just like on the phone a lot because it was like a long distance thing. But I felt like, and I mean, it didn't work out. I'm single. But I felt like I did like unearth this person and this relationship that I wouldn't have had.

And I gave it more time than I probably. would have because it was long distance and we were just having to be like texting it on the phone. But I like what you're saying, which is like, you know, I think we write people off because they don't light us up like crazy on the first date. And it's like, you don't have to go on a second date with those people, by the way, if you don't feel like it. But there is something to be said for just spending a little more time, like digging into what this person is.

So my nanny, when I was working on this book, you know, stop working for us. is like this amazing, incredible, like, terrific woman. And, like, I talked to her about this whole, like, second date idea. And she's like, okay, I'm going to try. And, like, this fall she's getting married to a guy. Yay! And she said, the reason I'm getting married is because I followed the advice that you and Aziz gave about second dates and third dates.

And, like, I wasn't sure about this guy, but I just stayed with it a little bit. and like it turned out, like once I figured out who he was, like this amazing thing happened. And I think it's like there's the coolest thing that came out of the whole project. It's like this idea that if we give ourselves and other people a chance, you know, we might find that like love is a little bit more accessible than it sometimes seems. I love that. And we always say like, do you feel like you want to see this person again? Ask you like deep in your core.

Because I said that about an ex of mine that I did fall deeply in love with. with. And the first date, I was like, I don't think this guy's for me. But I, like, we parted ways. And I was like, I can't stop thinking about our conversation, you know? And it's like that person of like, I personally think he got hotter in the relationship with me, which is just like how I'd do it because I'm like a witch. It's the whole thing. But like, I didn't know that I even found him so attractive the first date. And then by, you know, a few months in, I'm like, this is the hottest guy I've ever seen. You know what? I don't think other people would think that. And he was attractive. But like, I thought he was the best looking hotest, sexiest person ever.

And, you know, coming from a place of like, eh, take it or leave at first date. You know, I don't want the guy that every, that turns heads walking down the street. You know, I want somebody that I think is so attractive. It doesn't need to be a tent to everybody else. Or be a millionaire. And like, you don't have to stick to this list of criteria. I was listening to this terrible girl on this podcast. And she was saying about how, like, first of all, if somebody doesn't pay for every single

thing on every day, she'll never talk to them again. And second of all, that, you know, he has to have like a certain income level and a certain type of job and a certain type of lifestyle. And I thought to myself, like, how sad is it for you? That you write off every single person that isn't like that because I have fallen really deeply in love with people that didn't make as much money as me or didn't have a certain job type. I'm so glad you said that because this is another thing, Aziz and I learned.

We are so shitty at knowing what we want in a relationship. Like, people are totally wrong about what they're looking for. And, and, like, actually, all the dating sites figured this out because basically, like, you know, they used to, like, in the pre-Tinder days, they used to ask you, like, what you're looking for in a person. And people were like, I want someone who's blonde. And she has to be Christian. And she needs to have, like, you know, study French. You know, I want some, yeah, exactly. And they have, like, this whole list of attributes that they're looking for.

and then the sites would like track like who people were clicking on and who they were flirting with and who they're asking out and they had like nothing to do with what people thought their preferences were. And like match.com has all this like amazing research on this. It turns out like the things that predict whether you're going to be compatible with another person

are like almost never like what you think they are. What are they? Very funny. Like one of the things was like, do you like horror movies? Do you like the taste? taste of beer. Like, like, there are funny things like that that really predict whether you're going to be happy with someone. Now, obviously, there's like certain things that are, you know,

very specific to some people. Like, some people like, I'm only going to marry Jewish person, you know. Sure. That, like, that's a deal breaker for me. Other people are like, I mean, now we're also like ideological that, you know, like, if you told me that the person I was going to go out with is like a Trump supporter from a family of Trump people, actually the research says that it turns out that that probably isn't going to matter that much to me. Political partisanship matters much less than we think it would. But like for me personally, that probably would not work out. But, you know, there are a bunch of like kind of core character things. You know, I think, you know, Ashley, you're talking. You have to hate the same things. Actually, you're, you have to

hating the same things is good. But like, you know, like if what you're really looking for is someone who's going to be a good conversation partner, you know, like someone who's going to be intellectually stimulating. like someone who you can develop with and grow with. Is that person like open to changing and growing over time or they have very fixed ideas about like these people are good and these people are bad? Like I think those things really matter.

And like we tend not to think about that when we're like meeting someone and exchanging our resumes with them, you know, at Applebee's or wherever it might be. Like that kind of stuff happens way later in relationships, which again is why it's like just such an important thing to not rush into this decision. And it turns like it turns out like if you, If you get married after the age of 30, if you dated someone for a long time before you marry them,

you're way less likely to get divorced, right? Divorce rates are so low for people who are kind of thinking really carefully about how to make this decision. Well, and just knowing who you are, like, I was a different person at 25, truly. I mean, you know, at my core, I don't think people would be like, whoa, you've changed. I mean, I've just evolved and grown up and figured out who I am. You know, I don't know how much you think humans like actually change, but I just think you figure out what you want, who you are, what you stand for.

We're always changing, yeah, for sure. And so some of it is that I think we're changing probably a lot more before we're 30. Like there's a lot of stuff that happens in our lives during our 20s. It's going to shape who we are and how our lives turn out. But also, like, you know, one question is, you know, how open are you to, to kind of evolving with another person. How important is it that the other person, you know,

shares your sense of how much of a journey you're on. Because some people are like, I signed up for this life, you know, like when I got married to you, you said you wanted these things, and we're supposed to stay in this lane, and now you're all over here.

And that's like, inevitably in a relationship, like you're going to be, you're going to be moving in different places. And so you've got to figure out whether that person is ready for that journey with you. And where are you sort of going on it? Like I think about my brother and his wife

a lot. They've been together for almost 10 years now. They just celebrated their three year wedding anniversary yesterday. And they met they met when they were like 21. And I think that they both sort of like grown in the same direction. They both sort of climbed the corporate ladder. They both made more money.

They socioeconomically make a lot of sense together. I mean, I think they're a great couple otherwise. But I think that I love what you're saying, which is like, you know, can you pivot and change those things? because like one of them might have stopped working and making money. And it's like, are you willing to be with a partner that's going to do that? That's right.

Totally right. Right. Like what if you be married somebody that you were like, well, he has a job in finance. Like I think, you know, he's going to be financially stable forever and this is going to be our life. And then one day, I don't know, he's like, you know what? I just, this isn't fulfilling me anymore. I want to go living up. Well, I mean, look, so it's hard not to talk about this situation that we're in right now.

Like almost 40 million Americans. today, probably by the time this air, there'll be more than 40 million Americans have lost their jobs since March. 40 million people. That's a crazy number of people. Like, you know, man plans, God laughs, right? It's like, you can only control so much

in your environment, so you better be with somebody who's got at least a little bit of capacity to change and be flexible and to roll with you and who's going to love you, even if it turns out like you don't make a million dollars this year. Right. And so I think those are really important things to understand about what it is to be in a relationship over time. So like inevitably when you fall in love with someone, you're falling in love with a particular person in a particular time.

But you want to be, you know, thinking about something deeper than that, which, you know, kind of again is why really getting to know someone and getting to know yourself is so important in this process. Just to wrap that thought up and put a period on it, you know, know, I, I forward Ashley a lot of stuff of my ex that I was going to marry. We sort of laugh about what his life has turned into being, we're just very different people. And I remember feeling so sad that I didn't get married in my 20s. And my mom said to me like how great it is today in your 30s and you meet somebody that's a little more formed and what, what they're going to be for the future. And it's beautiful.

If you're like my brother, you can make it work with somebody you met when you're 21. But how lovely is it to meet somebody that's a little more grown up? It's a little more set in their career path and their finances and you're meeting a more whole person, I think. And there's some beauty in that. Well, I can't, like, I had a bunch of friends who got married in their, like, even in their kind of mid, late 20s. And there were so many divorces from people who, like, had their careers going really different directions. You know, like, one person took off and it was doing all stuff and the other person was kind of like not doing that. And suddenly, like, they started on this journey together.

and then they wound up in really different places. And they weren't expecting that. And like by 30, early 30s, you could kind of see where, you know, how people's trajectories were going to work. Not fully, but, like, you could see something. And, you know, when you're early, it's just early in your adulthood, it's just very hard to see that. I think now we're going through this period where, like, you know,

so much is changing. It's just hard to predict where we go next. And again, it's just like all the more reason to, you know, make sure that the person you're with shares some really core values and has some core compatibilities with you. Of course, each of us is different, and we all have our own set of needs.

But it's really important to understand. I guess I'm landing on this idea. I think too many people actually don't understand themselves enough. They don't know enough, they're not in touch with themselves, so that they don't have a sense of what their needs are, what their vulnerabilities are, what their anxieties are. You know,

what they bring to, the relationship as well. They're focused on like the attributes of some other people. And to be successful in a relationship, I think you need a deep awareness of both. Well, I feel like that's a great note to end it on. Awesome. We're running pretty long. Nice to meet you guys. Yeah, it was great to meet you.

And I can't wait to read Going Solo and Modern Romance is one of my favorite books about dating. Oh, that's nice. But please tell people where they can find you and find your books. If you have a website or Instagram, things like that. Okay, so where can you find me? I'm like a fairly active Twitter or Twitter. Twitter? I spent a lot of time on Twitter.

Twitter. I'm a Twitter. At Eric Kleinenberg. I have like one of those guys who has an Instagram account, but I don't use it that much. I'll try to do better. You guys are kind of big on Instagram, right? Yeah. And we just like people to like, I mean, honestly, it's check out your books.

So modern romance, I recommend. In today's podcast, we've discussed modern romance and also going solo about the extraordinary rise and surprising appeal of living alone. Maybe that's the one that you need to read after this conversation, right? Going solo? I can't wait to read it. Yeah. Yeah.

Pam. Green has got it on the way to her. Okay. Well, thank you so much, Eric. And you guys just stick around. We're going to do a little fun segment to wrap up this episode. But we're going to say goodbye to Eric and we will be right back. Thanks again.

I thank you guys. All right. We are back. Just the two of us. We hope you guys enjoyed our discussion with Eric. We are going to lighten it up with an oldie but a goody of that took a turn. I was inspired by one of you girls in the Facebook group that wrote this, that posted this Tinder exchange. Again, we're going to be anonymous.

What happens in the group, stays in the group. but she said, got by gun on Tinder today and I'm done. So I want to read that. She wrote hi there. Oh, she started this. Okay. She wrote hi. Tyler.

Of course, the same is Tyler. She wrote hi there. He said, hey, beautiful. How are you doing? Can I ask you an honest but random question? She said, I'm just peachy. But sure, shoot. He said, I got on Tinder to talk to someone.

I have something I need to ask, but I can't tell anyone I know. I didn't hurt anyone or anything. It's just personal. Do you mind giving me your honest opinion on something? She says, sure. He says, thank you. This is an honest question. I'm not trying to be rude or be a jerk.

Do you think there could be an attraction between a brother and a sister? Like a, like a, I can't read it. I can't read this. Like a subtle unspoken attraction, maybe. I'm crying. Do my ex-boyfriend write this? Her response is five dot, dot, dot, dots, and then no. I got to see the time stamps on this one.

I got to know how long she thought this over. Like she was like, maybe. It looks immediate. Oh, and he, I can't tell if I can see what he wrote. Oh, he was just typing. That's what it. Okay. So subtle unspoken attraction between a brother and sister.

I'm assuming not stepbrother sister. I think it's just his sister. I don't think we're asking. I don't think we're asking people if it's weird to have a subtle attraction to your step brother and sister. It's a very popular porn category. Okay. Do you want to go?

Okay. This next one is courtesy of Brent. Of course it is. Brent asks, how's your Lala weekend? Lala Belusa. So far I've been working, she says, so far I've been working, but I'm off tomorrow I'm going to Lala for the first time ever, L.O.L.

He says, yay, you're going to see. She says, pretty much only going for Casey Musgraves, L.O.L. He says, classic. Also, would you be open to the idea of a three-way? Says nope. and then he just he just changes the subject. I kind of wish I saw Childish last night.

Like Childish Gambino? Yeah. And she says, she laughed, laughing face, and now back to your regular scheduled programming, what is happening? He didn't change a subject.

He went right back to his original subject. He just slipped the three way in there. That's insane. He's like, how's Lala going? She's like, I really want to see Casey Musgraves. He's like,

totally, that's so classic. Do you want to have a threesome? No. Anyway, I wish I saw Childish Gambino last night. What just happened? Men are just, honestly,

I kind of respect it. Men like you, women would be so humiliated. They'd call everybody that they knew. They would just like apologize and think about this. Men just jump right back in. Nope. Okay. All right. Well, I shot my shot. I don't care. The next person might say yes. Men are just, they're unstoppable. Yeah. I mean, some of these we got were just totally unacceptable and totally disgusting and predatory and we're not going to read them and give those people a platform even though they're anonymous. But this one, I mean, it's just a question, I guess. No, that's what I'm saying. That's why we're reading it.

I feel like Brent shot is shot. He was like, hey, all right, this one, they're just chatting. It looks like they're in an app, but they may be in the DMs. They're talking about going to Auburn. She said, Wardam. And then she said, I grew up near Auburn. I'll be in town the week of Thanksgiving. We don't know the backstory before this.

But, you know, casually chatting. He said, let me tell you about myself. I have no parents. I was a foster child all the way until I was 16. in and out of the system. I've been on my own at 16. I got emancipated at 16. I had no time for girlfriends or anything like that because I've had to work my ass off to get where I am. I'm an industrial engineer. I work on factories and construction equipment. So I travel around a bit, but I'm always back in the weekends. I have a doggy. I go nowhere without him. He's a border collie who could open

the fridge. Worst thing I ever taught him, L.OL. I love to spoil because they are more caring. I love blow jobs and tithes. I like someone with a little sag to them because it's natural and beautiful. I don't make up. I don't like makeup because I believe a woman is beautiful without it. And I don't want to explain to people why I'm dating Bose of the clown. I like Harry Vajana is well-groomed, but Harry, because I want to know him with a woman, not a girl. Dad is saved in the notes section of his phone. He wrote that late at night, and he sends that to everybody. That guy typed that out in the notes section of the phone.

That guy, this is not like a spontaneous thing that he volunteered to one person. That was like his old, like, OKCupid profile. What? What? used to have like website profiles. Yeah. I love blowjobs and titties. I like someone with a little sag to them.

That's only a few lines down after I was in the foster care system at 16. Like, it's just a lot of info. We just went for it. You know, it's like you know exactly what you're getting into with a person like this. There's no surprises, right? I don't even know what we would talk about, to be honest, because I already know everything about you. I don't know. All right.

This made me laugh. He's drunk. It's late at night. Her name is Tori. I don't know his name. He starts. Tori, please. She says, just drink another beer and pass out already. He says, no, I want you and I will fucking do anything for you to talk to me. Tori, I will pay your rent. Talk to me. And then she drops the most savage line of all time. You can't afford my rent. He jumps in with the best comeback, but we can afford it, though. Literally let me talk to you in person, please. And then what, I'll pay half your rent? I'll pay half your. I love that he like seceded super quick.

He was like, talk to me and I'll pay your rent. And then she said you can't. I love this guy. Again, men just don't give a fuck. You like shoot them down with honesty and they just get right back in there. This one I liked so much. It made me laugh out loud. He said, I guess this is opener.

Yeah. So she just matched with him on an app. He said, I don't know how to say this even though I took French. Basmeau. It's Bos. I think it's Bas-Mois. It's like means fuck me. Translation.

So basically, in French, he said, fuck me. And she wrote, I barely know you. Laughing emoji. He said, so what? It spices things up. Speaking of spices, would you let me put a spicy egg roll in your ass before I eat it? And then he wrote, please. They'll make it taste better?

Like, where are we getting the egg rolls? Are we bringing them? You can't. Ladies, don't put. food in your asshole, by the way. Especially spicy food. Don't let someone stick a spicy egg roll up your booty. I mean,

egg rolls are not like structurally that sound. Like, it's not getting into a butthole. You know what I mean? Like, it would crumble on the way into the hole. It would crumble on the way. Unless he wants to do like a frozen something. I mean, that's weird. I don't know why I said that.

Okay, do you want to do one more? I like that you're thinking about how to keep it more structurally sound, though. If you froze it. Yeah. Okay, this one is courtesy of Terry. his name is Terry. Terry starts, hey, how was your Christmas? Mine would have been better if you were under my tree.

Nice holiday lines. Ha, ha, mine was good. How was yours? Lunch in the mountains with my dog. Tall glass of eggnog and your pussy sound like a meal. Terry, has that line worked on anybody? Did anyone during the Christmas season decide that they thought that that was a good line? Terry, he was so close with the tree line.

And then he was like, really could go for a glass of eggnog and your pussy. What? I feel like mine. That's your boyfriend. I feel like my pussy doesn't mix well with dairy products. The ladies also keep eggnog out of your pussy too. Okay. I'll end with this one. This is on Bumble. She said, this is with Ryan? So what are you looking for on here? Ryan, he responds, it's complicated, L.O.L. She writes, lay it on me, L.O.L. He says, well, I have a girlfriend, but she's married. Well. And suppose. to be leaving her husband, but that will probably never happen.

She never should have even married his stupid ass, but it is what it is. So IDK, I'm looking at other options just in case, L.O.L. This girl writes, oof, that is complicated. So does she know you're on here? Ryan writes, she knows I'm talking to other girls until she leaves him. She doesn't like it, but I don't like her being married. She doesn't like it, but I don't like her being married either. So, but she's married.

Like this is the level of craziness that all I just, what is his name? Ryan. Yeah. Typical Ryan. I also look this one because I just want to read it really fast. Kyle, of course Kyle, he goes, Hey, can I ask you a bunch of weird questions?

And she writes, how weird, L.O.L. So many L.O.L. He goes, what size of your feet and what color nail polish and how far can you spread your toes and how wrinkly do your souls get when you curl your toes? And how soft are the soles of your feet and how ticklish are your souls on a scale of one to 10 for the last four questions. one being the least and 10 being the most. I feel like this is your guy because you have such nice feet. Yeah, but I don't want, yeah, I have beautiful feet.

I don't want someone to fetishize them. You know, like, I just want a guy that likes me for me and like the feet are an added bonus. Like, I don't want a foot fetish guy. That's it. That's all I got for this week. All right, guys. Well, thanks for submitting your that took a turns and thanks for listening to this episode. And you can find us on Girls Got to Eat podcast on Instagram, Ash has and Rayna Don

Greenberg on Instagram, Girls Gotta Eat Podcast.com, Girls underscore Gotta Eat on Twitter and YouTube.com slash Girls Gotta Eat. And that's it for us.