Girls Gotta Eat - Heal Your Trauma, Anxiety, and Stress Through Your Body with Somatic Practitioner Brittany Piper

Episode Date: April 28, 2025

We are so glad to welcome back Brittany Piper – speaker, author, Somatic Experiencing Practitioner, and educator in sexual violence prevention and trauma recovery. In this episode, she is sharing her expertise of somatic healing, which starts with the body and can be life-changing for anyone with trauma, anxiety, and/or chronic stress, especially if traditional talk therapy isn't working. We discuss the science of the nervous system, learning the language of your body and how to regulate your stress responses, how to de-escalate your anxiety, and what a "trigger" actually is. We also discuss trauma and anxiety in relationships – talking to your partner about your needs, how you can be a helpful partner to someone who is struggling, co-regulating, and using a tool called "parts work" in a conflict. Before Brittany joins us, we're discussing wild AI text summaries, and unpacking a listener dilemma about a situationship with a colleague. Hope you enjoy! Follow Brittany on Instagram @healwithbritt and get her book Body First Healing. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for more. Thank you to our partners this week: Simply Pop: Go to https://cokeurl.com/simplyPOP to find out where you can try Simply Pop. Bilt: Get points by paying rent at https://joinbilt.com/GGE. Hungryroot: Get 40% off your first box and free item in every box for life at https://hungryroot.com/GGE with code GGE. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How does your body tell you a yes? How does your body tell you a no? And for a lot of us after trauma, that's kind of the first step is regaining that agency. This podcast is a Dear Media production. Hi guys. Hi guys. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat. Welcome back.

I just feel like I had a real like parenting moment with me. With my, with my fiance, with you, Tess is our daughter, where he had to like go pick up a zool at the groomer today. Like we had to organize like a pickup today. That's what parents have to do all the time with their kids. Oh yeah. Dog moms, just like parents. Raina, don't put words my mouth. People get so triggered about that stuff. No, but I was like, I'm going to be recording when Azul's ready for pickup at the groomer.

So we had to like leave work and go get his old. And then I had to be like, did you get the shampoo? They always forget to give you back. I bring special shampoo. You got to tell men how to handle your children. But he didn't get the shampoo, but I didn't remind him. And they forget the groomer to always give me back my shampoo. I give them special shampoo for Azul's sensitive skin.

So it's just such a thing that parents have to deal with every day that, you know, it's like, Babe, can you go pick up the kid and then don't forget the thing? Like, don't forget the stuff. Yes, you know what it's like to be a parent. I am inching closer to getting a dog every single day. I can't stop thinking about it. Like, I want this. Every day I think about it.

And I just, really, I'm edging towards it so much. I know I've threatened this for a lot of years, but I think I am finally ready. Do you guys remember Bagel the Yorkie? Well, I am going to name a bagel. Yeah, there is a very specific, like, look of dog. I want you to get. And I almost crashed my car the other day trying a picture of one for you, like crossing a crosswalk. I've been like Googling them every day.

I just looking at photos of them. I feel like I'm really, I'm edging towards dog life. Really? I just, it's a really long commitment. I can't just be like, this sounds fun. Like I'm committing to something for 15 years. But it's, the stakes are lower. Because it's a dog.

You know, like it's, you know, in terms of a kid. Different. Different. I can't stress it enough. So we had a friend just. really go through a really tough breakup. One of the harder ones I've heard of. Yeah. And I just really feel for her and I've been checking in on her. You texted with her as well. And I was talking to her last night over text and she was saying she's going to head up to stay with her family for a little bit. And

she just has like great support system. And you really need those people in those times. And friends, of course, too. If you don't know the family, you have the friends. But she just said her dog too. And I'm like, how do people get through breakups without dogs? You have done it. Yeah, a lot of times. No, but I can't imagine it. And breakups and just the hardest moments in my life to have Dewey there, honestly, the harder moments of my life were with him. I remember thinking in those moments like, how can you do this?

How can you be brokenhearted and not have this animal to like be with you and cuddle with and be in the bed with you? It's just, it makes everything better. I've done it somehow. I know. And people do it all the time. But I will say a nice thing about it is that like when you are, depressed for whatever reason.

The hardest thing to do is leave the house, even though you know it's going to make you happy. You know that outside, like, I always tell people, surround yourself with people you love, go outside, take a walk, like breathe air. And an animal obviously will give you a reason to do that. I mean, in my lowest moments,

Azul still makes me laugh and smile and I still can talk to him in the dog voice. You know, like, sometimes I can't believe the way I'm able to talk to him and smile in like the lowest of times. Like they make your life so much better. I know this is going to be like a deep conversation about dogs,

but I think about it a lot, like how much they improve our lives and we need them in tough times. I know. And I think I'm just like ready to like care about something besides myself. I just, I mean, you're going to get a smaller dog. You're going to bring it with you everywhere. Yeah.

Look at Alyssa. I mean, that thing is. It's never not with her. Yeah. I'll have it with me all the time. Yeah. And it'll be small enough to travel with easily. Stick it under the seat.

Drug it up and put it under the stuff. I'm ready. I feel like I'm ready for it. Oh my God. All right. Well, stay tuned to you guys. I've threatened this many times over the years. Okay.

So we'll see. But let's thank our partners. Thanks to Bill. Get points by paying rent at joinbilt.com slash GGE. And thank you to Simply Pop. Go to Coke URL.com slash Simply Pop to find out where you can try Simply Pop. And also that URL will be in our episode description. And Hungry Route, get 40% off your first box and a free item in every box for life at

hungry root.com slash gge with code gge. Okay. So I'm going to be in Florida this weekend. Just want to make a quick mention going to Miami and Tampa. I have shows this Friday, May 2nd, Miami, Saturday in Tampa. I can't believe I'm going to be there without you. You know what? Maybe you'll come now.

Maybe. Listen, I love Miami so much. It's our special place in Tampa. I just love. Dave Batista has a tattoo shop there. I love Tampa. So really fun shows. I have a Miami comedian, iconic Britney Brave is going to be with me at both of these shows.

She's so funny. She did my show's New York. She brought the house down. But I can't wait to see you guys. I have so many friends and family coming to Miami and like some friends coming to Tampa. And I just love performing in Florida. So you guys can come see me this weekend on the Sex Before Marriage Tour. Grab tickets at ash Hess.com.

And I'll see you there. Okay. I want to talk to you about this because I feel that no one is speaking on this. I don't understand it. This has been this thing that is just like everyone's experiencing it. No one's speaking of this. Yeah, I feel like I brought it up to you because here we are teasing. I feel like I brought it up to you and you, because yours are so funny.

And then I was like, no one is talking about this. This is all I'm thinking about. I just didn't even think about thinking about it. I was just like, this is our life now. Which is the AI previews on text, which I guess if you're crazy behind on your update, you're not getting these, but it's been happening for what, like a month or so month or two now. Emails also.

So emails too. I think you could turn it off. I'm assuming you could turn it off. Right. But so people don't know what they're taught. I mean, Tess, you have these, right? You just never got it? Are you updated?

So Tessa doesn't have it. But so basically when a text pops up and it's at the top of your text log, there's an AI preview of what the text says. And once you open it, it disappears. Same with email. Actually, the emails stay.

The emails stay. The emails I find bothersome and annoying because if it's a chain of emails like 10, it will summarize just something in there. It drives me crazy. It also is not accurate. But for text messages is very funny. And you've like read me some of the previews that are coming because I send you very long voice notes and text messages. Yeah. And some of them have been very crazy. So I asked you to screenshot them. It's tough because you open it and then they disappear. I know. So summer's in my memory. But my favorite one, I'm just going to start strong, was I got an AI preview from a text. Raina sent me and it said almost defecated, had to run to

car defecated. So what had happened was. And for me to see that, almost defecated, had to run to car. I went to a restaurant that I go to a lot. They sabotaged me. I went to the beach and I realized that like something was wrong in my stomach and I'm like sweating and shaking. I'm like, I'm going to shit on this beach.

And so I ran to the car and I like white knuckled it all the way home. I literally was like negotiating with myself. Like how bad would it be if I just. let myself shit in your car. Like it was, it's the hardest I've ever had to like clench my bottle. I thought I was going to be sick. I was talking to myself in the car being like, you can do this. Don't shoot in your car.

You're going to make it home. Like I was really like bargaining, negotiating with myself. But for that to be the preview was so funny because they take everything funny out of it and all the nuance. Yes, exactly. They use like the official word. Defecate. Okay, a couple more.

This one, you were in New York and you were going out for the night and it said, wants sex, hates so and so is friends. We're not going to say your name. Hank meeting up. Saw it Hank. One sex. Hates this girl's friends. Hank meeting up. The one sex was so funny.

Once sex. What? Like A. I was like, shoot. This girl's horny. I think what I said you is I'm really horny and I want to sex tonight. And then like talked about this girl's friends that I don't like it. At the very bottom, I think I mentioned Hank.

And then I think you have some from this same trip. But Raina went to this Vegas trip with our friends. And I demanded to stay on the group chat. There was a point where it got a little annoying because you guys were planning to meet up. But I knew what I signed up for because I was there for all the hungover text the next day. Like Brian and I were like, don't remove us from the group chat. So to give you guys a little background on what was happening here, I had gone on a trip. On this group chat is this guy that I've had a thing with.

And separately, I was texting Ashley about like trying to like figure out my way through this airport. And I was like, I can't find the gate. I feel like such an idiot. I'm so hungover. I don't know how I ended up in this like fantasy. gate. So that's the conversation I'm having with Ashley. I'm like, I'm so brave to deal with this with, I hadn't got, I slept for two hours. I was in Vegas all night. So on the group chat, you send the preview. He's on the group chat. He's on the group chat. The preview says Raina Greenberg,

lost, unsure how to proceed strong. And I am faced with, do I just let him think this is clearly about him or do I explain the absolutely ridiculous other thing that I was talking about. Wait, hold on, I didn't even, wait. I'm realizing this in real time that you thought that he would think

that you meant like, I'm so lost and broken about it. I didn't realize until just now. I thought we all knew you were talking about the airport. No. So he sees me texting you that morning. To be clear. I'm lost.

I'm unsure how to proceed and I'm so strong. I sent this text screenshot in the group chat and be like this is a hilarious AI preview lost unsure how to proceed strong and he's like whoa I really fucked her up. I have Sophie's choice at this moment let him think this is about him or let him see what I actually texted you which was also kind of bad so the actual text says we are in terminal D but there's only signs for A, B, and C. I had to ask three different people how to get here. Then I had to take a train to the mythical terminal with no signs, the Vegas airport, just try to survive this with this hangover.

We dare you. Then I'm like, just so everyone knows I meant lost physically, not emotionally. I wasn't even realizing what you were doing in that moment. I did not realize you were covering your tracks. I was like, she's explaining a lot. Go off, I guess. It was a lot of information to be like, I just, I sound so like physically lost and incapable. Like I've never been to an airport before.

And it was really hard to find this terminal. It was crazy, but I could not let him think. That you were unsure how to proceed. I was lost, emotionally lost. And then the other one that I hate that I didn't screenshot, but I mentioned it on this group chat was earlier, the AI thing said a few different things, and it says Raina request wheelchair assistance at airport. Raina requests wheelchair assistance.

When you are so hungover in the airport. I'm so fucked up. You are like jealous of everybody. Like you're just like, can I ride on that? I mean, like the motorized things. Like you are like, I need it. Like, remember that time? Like when we were waiting in line, I think we were leaving Miami.

That was one of the drunkenest I got of like 2022. And I was like, can I board early for extra assistance? It's going to take me a while to walk down the jet bridge. Like you were just like, oh my God, I can't believe I have to walk and be a person. Well, somebody walked by me with a wheelchair. And I was just like, that looks nice. Well, even the golf carts, you're like, can I just get on it? Do you think there is more hungover place in the world than

Sunday at the Vegas airport. No, I mean, that's the thing. Like, that's why you were eating pizza that one. It was 9 a.m. And you had a slice in the airport. I mean, it was really crazy, though, because they do tell you to get dropped off at Terminal A, and then you go in, and there's only signs for A, B, and C.

But my ticket said Terminal D. And there are zero signs at the Vegas airport for Terminal D. They are nowhere to be found. And then there's one that says, like, baggage claim this way, Terminal D this way. And you get down to baggage claim. And they're like, just kidding. It's not here.

And so you have to, like, go to the end of all. all three terminals, then you have to take a tram to this other terminal. I was like, the fact that, like, they make you navigate this with a hangover. I slept for two fucking hours. It should be the easiest airport in the world, given the circumstances. You know what? That brings me to what I've been thinking about, the airports. Sometimes you were in the airport and you were like, I shouldn't be here.

Is this an airport? Where are we? The ceiling's not finished. Like, it's under construction. Oh, the tunnels. Like, it feels crazy. I feel like it's been happening more and more. I get it under construction.

But in LAX and plenty of other airports, more so LAX. I am in an area that feels like I am not allowed to be in there. Yes, there's two newer terminals in there. And both times I've gone, I've been like, where are we? And how do I get here? Yeah. Well, we were, when I flew to that big Canada trip, I took with my fiance, like, we got to the airport kind of early and I was determined to get back to the Centurion Lounge.

It was a hike. He was like, are we seriously doing this? We're walking 20 minutes to be in there for 10. And I was like, well, I'm hungry. And I'm going to put a picture up. It was the craziest I've ever seen. It felt like we were on like a hard hat tour. Yes, like there should be signs that say like pedestrians not welcome staff.

Yes, exactly. Like sometimes when I use the stairwell in a hotel and I'm like, I shouldn't be here. And there's just like, you know, cleaning supplies and they're just like, I shouldn't be here, but I'm using the stairs. Like that's how it feels. Yeah, it was weird. So I don't know. We just want to know if you guys have some funny like screenshots, it's, I hate that you can't go back to them. I know.

Because I look at it, I laugh and I accidentally open the text and it disappears, but these have just been getting us. I mean, they're so funny. Like the way that we text and how so many of you guys text, obviously, especially with your girlfriends that AI picks up on these and the way that they summarize them, it's unhinged. I can't believe that you didn't realize why I was explaining that in the group chat. That is so. I was thinking about him sitting on a plane with his hangover being like, what is she saying? Does she think I'm a boyfriend now?

She's lost. She's lost without me. I was thinking you were being a little over-explaining. Yeah, that's why. I was like, he cannot see this and think. this. Okay. So we got this email and I just thought it was interesting. I think this is something that people come across quite a bit like in the workplace and I just wanted to like unpack it with you. So she's very funny. The subject line is riddle me this ladies. What in the are we or aren't we

is going on here. Okay. So I like riddle me this. I know. I was I just, that be a new segment. Maybe. Yeah. Riddle me this. Wait, I like this. I like that. Okay. Let's talk about. Let's talk about it. We're going to keep this anonymous like always. Anon please. Anon. Okay. I got a little dating stitch I want to run by you girls. I met this guy at work. We flirted the kind of not the HR report kind. So, you know, just, you know, they're keeping it a classy.

Yeah, yeah. Eventually, he asked for my number. Fast forward six weeks, and we've been texting and talking literally every day, like high school crush on a landline levels of chatting, four plus hour convos, four hours. She doesn't clarify whether this is text message combos or on the phone. Oh, I thought she said. She says we've been texting and talking every day.

Four plus hour convos makes me think phone, but I guess you could be, I don't know. You wouldn't call a text a four hour convo. You could. I guess. You sat and texted for four hours. Well, I'll read the rest of this to you. This is why leads me to believe it's just text messaging. Okay.

He's even bought me dinner at work a few times, but we didn't eat together. Romantic and mysterious? The thing is, we haven't hung out outside of work. Not once. I've made it super clear, I'm flexible and can work around his schedule because, yes, it's wild, but still nothing. So riddle me this, ladies. What in the are we or aren't we is going on here?

Am I a phone relationship, a very elaborate pen pal situation? How many to code this romantic Rubik's Cube? So works with him. This has been gone for about six weeks. They're talking constantly, whether or not it's on the phone. He brought her dinner to work a couple of times, but dropped it off at her desk or something. It's not like they sat in the cafeteria together,

and he's not asking her out. But they are working together every day? Yes. They work together every day. They text all night. I'm so confused. I think she's just like, this is happening at work, but he's not asking to see me outside of work hours.

Yeah. This is, he's really enjoying my time, my input, my flirting, whatever. But like, she's made it clear that she wants to see him and he's not doing it. No. But she sees him every day. But she's like, I'm only seeing you at work. That's not, like, we're not dating. I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around when we hear situations like this where you're being pen-powed.

You don't see them. They live in your phone. You don't wake up every morning and go. see them. So this is like extra unique. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people, listen, most people don't go to work anymore, but I guess like in a professional works, yeah, I mean, I've certainly had these flirtatious relationships with people at work where I see them every day and you have to act kind of professional at work, but you're like, you know, you're on Slack or you're texting and you're being a little sexy and this can go on for quite some time. And I mean,

I've definitely had these relationships at work, absolutely. But I've never had somebody not take it outside of the boardroom, if you will. I wonder, can she find out anything? It sounds like he is a girlfriend. That would be my guess is that he has somebody else that he's dating. Or lives with or something. Can she find that out? I mean, it's really flying a little close to the sun for him to do that with somebody at work.

And then after work, he's also texting with her all the time. Again, I still feel a little confused on the details. But she has to ask him straight up after six weeks of this. And she can be cute and cool. about it, but she could be like, hey, I'd love to, like, go out after work. I don't know if she said that, because she said I made it super clear. I'm flexible. I don't know what that means exactly, but this has to be, like, explicit and let him speak. And I don't know. What else to say here? I mean, I think that she's avoiding asking the question because she's afraid of what the answer

is going to be. Yeah. So I think that, like, it's a totally normal question. Let's, let's grab a drink when we get out of here. I think you should ask the question. I think that it's totally normal to be flirting back and forth with somebody like this and be like, hey, let's hang out. You can ask once. I think you're worried he's not going to say yes. And I think you're also worried that if you guys were going to go out, he would have asked already. So that's why you're not asking. But you've got to ask and that's your answer. Like this guy, I think I don't know what the dynamic is between them. I don't know if she's a subordinate to him. I do think that like obviously people prioritize their careers. It's a no-no to date your coworkers in a lot of places, especially

somebody on a different level than you. So that could all be at play for him where he's like, I'm just going to enjoy this emotional connection until she holds my feet to the fire and then I guess I will deal with this. But it sounds like you're going to have to ask him out and just see what happens. Yeah. Or keep doing this. If it serves you, I don't care. I mean, whatever. You know, it doesn't have to be like, you got to do that. I mean, it sounds like she does want more. You can have a fun flirty pen pal thing if you want to. But if you want to go out this guy, you got to say a thing. And then I hate to say, I don't think he's going to do it. There's a reason why they haven't. I could be wrong. He could be like, oh, yeah, I didn't know you liked me like that. It's happened before.

Yeah. And you could go out. And then great, we're golden. But if not, then she's probably worried it's going to be awkward at work. And then I think pull back on all that texting. Just pull back. You know, you put yourself out there. He didn't bite. Completely pull back. If he questions you about that, I think you should be like, ah, let's just keep it at work. Let's just be like colleagues. Like you're well within your right. Don't let someone gaslight you about what's happening here. He's talking you for four hours at a time. You're flirting. Like he knows what's happening here. Don't let yourself be. gaslit about like, oh, what? I thought we were just friends. You know? He's definitely getting something from this emotionally. He likes the attention. He likes your company. He thinks you're great in all these ways. I mean, one of a few things is happening here.

He has a girlfriend outside of work. And that's why he's doing this. I also think that he could be a little concerned about workplace dynamics in general. Maybe. Maybe he does for some reason think you just want to be friends and he's worried he's going to say something. And then that's going to, you know, you're just a workplace harassment type of

situation. I mean, some guys like a bestie, too. I don't know the nature of their text. I mean, I wish she would have sent some screenshots because she doesn't say anything about sexting or super, super flirty, right? She says we flirted. But nothing crazy. Yeah. So, and also she kind of makes it clear it's not the HR report kind. Like also plenty of companies are fine if you date intermingle, whatever. So I, again, don't have all the details. If I could read all their texts, I could decipher a lot more. but we all know that a lot of men need people to talk to. They're lonelier than ever. You know, like, I don't know if it's that.

Like, you said he's getting something out of this. What I don't think is happening is that he's so clueless, you know. I know. I know. I also just want, you know, you know, there's exceptions to every rule. Totally. He bought you dinner. You guys are talking all the time.

Yeah. I mean, that's also really strange. Yeah, it's all really strange. I mean, didn't eat with you says to me, I'm concerned about the optics of this in the workplace and that maybe as people, People will say something to be about harassing you or something like that. That's crazy. People buy each other food.

I also feel like six weeks in long conversations, assuming flirty, you would say something about the workplace. Like if that was holding you back, you would have addressed it in a month and a half. You would have said, like, it's a bummer about work. And I feel weird about it. Like there would have been a hint that he feels weird about it because of work. And if there is somebody else in the picture, he's not going to admit that. to you. If you spoke into him for six weeks and he has omitted that information that he's dating

somebody, you're not going to get that from him. So the only card you have to play here is, let's grab a drink after it work. Just say those words and you will get your answer. And I think you're avoiding asking that because you're afraid that you're going to hit with either him, like you said, kind of gas at you into like, well, we work together and, you know, or saying no, but either way, like, I think you're confused. That'll be your answer. And there's nothing wrong with saying that, you haven't like put yourself out there so much. You know, like it's not embarrassing. And then if he says no, like you said, you dial back the communication. That's it. You don't have a long conversation of like you led me on and but just just stop the communication.

She could have said someone already. She said, I've made it super clear and flexible and can work around his schedule. If that's the case, if you have made it super clear, you want to hang out with him outside of this. If you've done the thing that we're telling you you should do, then if you don't like the way this feels, then pull back now. Yeah. And find somebody else. Yeah. And. And if you don't want to ask him out, then you do have to pull back and just see if he, he will keep trying. He will keep texting you, calling you all this. It seems like you guys have a connection. The attention's there.

He likes the attention. Yeah. I worry that he's just like really likes the friendship aspect of it and the deep conversations that maybe they're having and need somebody to talk to. We see it all the time. Yeah. You got to ask him out. Yes. Keep us posted, please.

Yeah, I'm dying to know what happens here. But if you've made it super clear and he hasn't asked you out, you just, just have. Ask him out. See what happens. Yeah. Let him ask you out. I'd love to grab a drink, you know, like, dangle it. Yeah. I think she used to say I'd love, let's grab a drink. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let him make the plans.

But she's going to have to like. Make the move. Say the move. Say the thing. Okay. Well, once again, solving all your problems. But keep us posted. Riddle me this girl. So we have a fantastic episode for you guys today. We have a wonderful guest back on the show. Her name is Brittany Piper. And her last time on the show was in May of 2020. The episode's May 11th, 2020. And the episode was about sexual assault. And she is a advocate speaker and an assault survivor. And we did a fantastic episode about that then. And I want to point you guys to some resources. But April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month. And we're not going to really

focus on assault that much in this episode, just rather trauma and processing that in your body. Yeah. As far as a trigger warning goes, it doesn't come up too much. But she tells her story in full on the first episode we have with her. I'm assuming we did a trigger warning on that. So you're not going to hear much about that because she's told her story. And again, it is more all-encompassing of all kinds of trauma and anxiety. It's a relatable episode to anybody. So I just want to be super clear about what you're about to hear when it comes to that type of content.

Yeah. So if you find that triggering, just listen with caution. And of course, same goes for her previous episode. But there's lots of resources that she provides. And I'm on the website for the National. sexual violence resource center. And they talk a little bit about just what this month means and bringing awareness to it and the theme of sexual assault awareness month. And it just highlights the importance of working together to address and prevent sexual abuse, assault and harassment. So it's all

encompassing. And the campaign focuses on enhancing public understanding of sexual violence, amplifying the voices of survivors and empowering us to work together to promote the safety and well-being of others. And, you know, of course, we want to always encourage you guys to be safe, use your voice, and this website is fantastic for resources. If you need somebody to talk to, if you need information, browse articles, things like that. So that is the NSVRC.org. Okay. Well, thanks for sharing that. And again, today, we really hope you guys love the episode and we just love Brittany and we love having her back. So we will get into it. We are just going to talk about our partners. Okay, I am telling you guys about a new partner, Simply Pop. We are so excited.

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co-G-G-E to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life, hungry root.com slash g-ge-e-co-G-E. And let's get into it with Brittany. Okay, guys, we are very excited to welcome back a guest to the show. She is a renowned speaker, author, and somatic experiencing practitioner and an expert in sexual violence prevention and trauma-informed care. Over the past 13 years, she has delivered more than 400 programs across three continents as a rape survivor and a leading advocate on sexual violence prevention.

She speaks to tens of thousands of people every year. She's also a forensic neurobiology expert conducting trauma-informed trainings and is the founder of the acclaimed Body First Healing. Her debut book is out now, Body First Healing. Please welcome back to our show, Brittany Piper. Thank you. Welcome back. Thank you.

It's so nice to have you here. And we recorded with you in May, the episode dropped May 11th, 2020. And this is our first in-person episode with you. Wow. Yeah. I didn't realize that really was a month before my son was born. You were so pregnant. Yeah.

I mean, I know I told you all I was really pregnant because I could hear it in the way I was breathing, but I didn't realize it was a month before. Literally a month before. Yeah. Well, you're here and you have two kids now. Yeah. Life is different. Yep.

Life is very different. I've been saying my book is like my third baby. So I just, you know, birth to third one. But yeah. Two human children. Yeah. Congrats. I mean, we're just, you know, we're just, you know, we.

love talking to you and following you and everything that you built. Thank you. You know, you really have. You have the baby. Yeah. The book baby. Yeah. I don't know how you did that on top of two kids.

I don't even have any kids. I can't read a book. Well, we had you on this show in 2020 to talk about sexual assault. It was really the first episode we ever did on that. And you spoke about it with such grace and openness and honesty. I mean, your story is incredible what you went through and what you've turned that into. And we still get messages today.

I hope you do too about how like meaningful that episode was to people. Yeah. Yeah. And I think even when I reached out to y'all about, you know, having this conversation about the book, one of the really cool things about this book and kind of a full circle moment is there are two clients that I work with that agreed to share a little bit of their story in this book, Body First Healing. And one of the clients, she found me through that episode, which is actually mentioned in the book. So really, really cool. Yeah. I love that. I mean, I remember when you, I think you came on and you were like, you know, just the DMs are open, everybody. I was like, yeah, we were like, don't say that. You wanted people to reach out to you. And then I was in touch with you after. After I'm like, how you doing? Can you keep up? Yeah. And because I just, people were reaching out to you and we're not going to retell your whole

story. We want people to go back and listen if they want to really know that. But this, your experience with sexual assault is, you know, all tied in and what we're going to talk about today and can speak to people who have experienced anything like that. So what was the inspiration for the book? because you sort of zoom out from just sexual assault and you expand just trauma in general, depression, people that just struggle with extreme anxiety. Yeah.

So tell us about the inspiration for the book. Yeah. So the book, Body First Healing, it's essentially a somatic roadmap to trauma recovery. And although the book does focus on how to heal trauma through the body, it's also just a really good book to have when you're managing stress or challenges. I mean, it's a book for anyone, not just for trauma healing. So for me, and I shared a little bit about my story when I was with y'all. But, you know, I've experienced multiple traumas in my life.

When I was 20, I was sexually assaulted by a stranger who helped me change my flat tire. And I think that's really where a lot of our conversation circled around. But outside of that, I've also experienced loss. So my brother passed away in a car accident when we were in high school. And then when I was born, I was actually taken from my mom. And I was put into foster care because there was methamphetamine found in our system. And so what's interesting is it wasn't until after my assault and after my brother passed away. So kind of like my late teens, early 20s that I recognized, okay, I've been through some shit in my life.

You know, and I went down a really destructive path. I now look back and I'm like that self-destruction of the heavy drinking, the really shitty toxic relationships to help me distract and run from pain, the pill abuse. it was really just self-protection. It was my way of coping, managing, but it was not healthy. And, you know, I ended up in a jail cell. I ended up in a hospital bed with alcohol poisoning. And I wish that I had known sooner about these kind of more, you could say, alternative methods to healing because I had been in and out of therapy for many, many years. You know, traditional talk therapy. I mean, I talked about my trauma extensively. I was on different medications, but I felt like, I would always get kind of pulled back into this vicious cycle of what the hell is Brittany going to do this year? Is she going to end up in a jail cell again? You know, like, what's going to happen? And it wasn't

until I started doing some somatic therapy of working like with my nervous system and how trauma is stored in the body that I really saw incredible progress. And it happened relatively quickly. And so I'm 36 now. That was around the age of 22, 23. And at the time, it wasn't really talked about. So I kind of went down this rabbit hole of like, what is this world of somatic therapy? And I'm like, why does no one know about it? So then, you know, I explored it personally and then I explored it professionally. And now that's what I do. I'm a somatic experiencing practitioner.

So the book is like a culmination of my story. It's a relatable book, but it gives a tangible roadmap to healing through the body. Okay. So we've had somatic therapists on this show, but if people don't know what that means, can you define what that means? Yeah. Soma means of the body. So, you know, what we do as somatic practitioners, but more specifically, I'm trained in something called somatic experiencing.

There's different somatic modalities out there, but SC, for short, is a naturalistic approach to trauma recovery through the body. So what we do is we work with body memory rather than like verbal memory. Like when you work with a cognitive therapist, they're going to walk you down the path of like, what happened? Where were you? You know, you get down into that whole spiel. But what we work with is body memory.

So how trauma still shows up in the body and our impulses and our reactions and our organs. So like, for instance, if someone raises their voice at you and then you notice that like, oh, your shoulders are starting to pull forward and close off and now your eyes are going down and your stomach is in knots. Like that's old body memory. That is something that happened to you in the past that's now showing up in the present. And so we work with that memory to help your body. essentially have a new experience. So rather than like rushing and running away, rather than shutting

down and dissociating, rather than pushing down anger, we give the opportunity for the body to start to explore here what it couldn't do back then. I sent her this meme yesterday and it said in quotes, anxiety is all on your head and then the person responds, well, my accelerated heart rates of your stomach pain, difficulty breathing, say otherwise. And it really reminded me of what you do. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we all feel that and I think if you're someone who really is in touch, with your body, you know all of those reactions where the drinking and the drugs numb that and you don't feel it. But like I feel like I'm someone who's really into with my body and I can feel the things happening. And you want to be like, stop feeling like that. Like even if it's just

getting nervous to do stand up or I remember I read something once of like where anger starts and a lot of people get like a hot face or I feel like in my gut. Yeah. You know like different things. You like know those body feelings. And you know, you think to your. like, I want to turn it off. Like, if you feel it happening, you know, so. And for somebody to say to you, like, well, just don't think like that. Yeah. Exactly. Like, yeah, well, I would, why did I think of that? I would love to do that. I would love to not think like that. Thank you. Yeah. Like, sometimes I'm like, my brain, I'm good up here. The thoughts I'm having. If I feel really nervous to go do a thing, but it's like, I'm feeling it otherwise. And these might start to get a little shaky. Like,

these body responses are are so real. And they're often in the driver's seat and we don't realize it. Yeah. So that's the difference between like in traditional therapy when we're talking through stuff, right? There's like there's what we know and then there's what we feel. And so in the somatic space, we help essentially what we work with is the nervous system. We help the nervous system catch up with what the mind already knows. Like our mind knows, I'm not back in, you know, my nine-year-old self when my mom is throwing

a punch at my dad or my dad's throwing a punch of my mom, whatever. They're fighting. There's physicality going on and I'm hiding. in my bedroom. Like, I know I'm not there, right? But your body and your nervous system is not a rational system. It doesn't know that. Right. And 95% of the subconscious brain, which is where the nervous system operates, is in control. And more specifically, there's this thing, and I'm sure you all have heard it, maybe the Vegas nerve. It's like, oh, okay, let's talk about the Vegas. I mean, I wish, yeah. But like that's how you say it. So yes. Yeah, so it's V-A-G-U-S.

Oh, I thought about 24 hours in Vegas. Yeah, we can do that. to what happens in the Vegas nerve stays in the next. Yeah. What happens? Unfortunately, it does it. It does it. Unfortunately, I wish it did. Yeah.

Right. So the Vegas nerve, it's a longest nerve in the body. But it's known as the information super highway. And it connects from the brain down through the heart, the gut. And it's called the vagus nerve because it's the wandering nerve. So Vegas means wanderer. So it touches like everything. But it sends information from the body up to the brain and from the brain down to the body.

And in the early 2000s, we found. through kind of like these advancements in medical technology through neural imaging, that 80% of the vagus nerve messages go from the body up to the brain, and only 20% go from the brain down to the body. Okay. Which means that your body has a lot more control. Yeah, exactly. But that's why you do things and you know you shouldn't.

I mean, it's just like, even than just fighting with your partner, like you're like, I know better. I learned in therapy not to speak with them that way, but I can't control my impulses that are kind of coming from everywhere else. Yes. I think about just how these things manifest in my body. I had a period of time where I was really depressed and I said to a friend, like, I feel like my legs don't work.

My knees hurt. Like I'm so tired. I don't want to do anything. And yeah, I could tell myself like you're being ridiculous, take a walk. But like I just, I couldn't. I physically felt it. Yeah. We always say that we cannot will our way into healing and recovery, even though we think that

we can like, you know, positive mindset, think positive. If your body is not on board, if you're not doing the somatic, as well, you're only going to get so far. And you often find that you'll get better for a short time, but then it's like, oh, shit, here I am. I'm back in that cycle. I'm back in that pattern again. But specifically what you're talking about, Raina with depression is you're talking about the helplessness that happens in the body when the body goes into kind of like a freeze response or what we call shutdown. The definition of trauma is any experience that overwhelms the nervous system. And when that happens, your nervous system essentially gets stuck in survival mode. So fight,

flight, shut down, freeze, fawn, and functional freeze. But what happens is that when you go into survival mode, your body gets flooded with adrenaline and cortisol, our stress hormones, which like mobilize us to fight or flee. And if we don't allow our body to physically fight or flee, or if it's like an emotional thing where I'm feeling anger, which is fight, or I'm feeling, feeling that fear or anxiety, which is flight. We're really good as these human animals at suppressing our emotions, which we can talk all about. So if we suppress that fight or flight, the adrenaline and cortisol is still within our body. And it turns into like this chronic stress, which then creates chronic illness, chronic disease. But when we push it down, we push ourselves into what we

call shutdown, which is like hibernation. And so your body starts to like go into these very exhaustive states of conserving energy. That's where depression, burnout, fatigue live. But all that adrenaline and cortisol is still trapped within the body. And is it the same thing with like, I have a friend who suffers from like extreme anxiety. She finds it totally paralyzing and she can't talk herself out of it because I think her body has reacted in a way that's like all the chemicals. Yeah.

She can't tell herself the truth, which is like, you're safe. It's going to be fine. Let's work through this. Right. Is that similar? Like those chemicals are just kind of trapped in the body. Exactly. Yeah.

So what we say is that we have to show the body in the nervous system, not tell it. So like even though she's saying, I know I'm safe, the body is feeling a different way. And the nervous system, it operates from the subconscious brain, but more specifically, the two lower regions of the brain, which is the emotional brain, which is the midbrain, and then the survival brain, the brain stem. And the language here in these two regions is emotion, feeling, sensation, and impulse. So the language is not cognition, which is why. We can't tell our nervous system, like get over the anxiety, you're safe, like move through

the depression, you're fine. Be happy. Like, buck up. The nervous system is not going to be on board. It has to feel it. We have to show it. But what we're talking about here is a chronic stress response cycle. So it's really fascinating about, like, somatic experiencing is it was developed by Dr. Peter

Levine in the 70s at Berkeley. It was a fringe movement back there, which when you think about Berkeley during the 70s. Totally. Yeah. So he was like, yeah. So which is maybe why people didn't take it seriously for a while. I don't know. But he started to explore trauma through the body, but he was looking through the lens of

studying animals in the wild. And he's like, animals face threat routinely every single day in the wild. So like, why are they not traumatized? Because animals have the same nervous system that we as human animals have. They're identical. But what's different about animals is that animals allow themselves. to like go through what we call the stress response cycle. And if you see me on the screen, I'm doing a circle with my fingers. And the stress response cycle is here's the adrenaline and cortisol.

Like I'm triggered by something or I'm stressed. And there's the adrenaline and cortisol. My body's going into fight or flight. And I'm going to mobilize this or what we call discharge it out of the body. This usually happens through like shaking, trembling, breathing, sweating. But we, you know, like when we're anxious, we're like, oh no, I just need to calm down. I need to stop shaking. It's like, we talk ourselves out of that, but then we get stuck in that stress response cycle. So with the anxiety, right, how often are we taught, like, make our anxiety go away or anxiety hacks to get rid of it and, like, calm down? It's more so of like, how can I actually welcome the anxiety, welcome the shaking in a small way. And what that does is it allows the body to metabolize the adrenaline cortisol,

release it. And then we complete that stress response cycle. But for most of us, because we don't know how to do that or we're, you know, our world kind of conditions us to like push our feelings away or especially for women. Not okay to feel our feelings. Not okay to show our feelings. What happens is it can create a lot of those kind of like emotional, physical, you know, health issues. That's so interesting about the animals because I think my dog, his stress response is he just pants and he just like has to get it out or he'll shake. Every time he goes to the groomer, he's shaking, he's panting. He started flaking. One time when he was really anxious, my ass my vet, she was like, it's a stress response.

Like, I know all his things. And here we are just like, don't show anybody that you're, you're anxious, you know. Don't start panting. Yeah. Well, I think in romantic relationships, especially you've children, so much of the housework falls on women, the child raising falls on women also go out and work, make money. And it's like, who has the time? No.

It's just like stamp it out, go out. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. I have a lot to say about the whole women thing. Yeah. And it's funny because my husband and I were just talking yesterday. I'm like, do you see this article?

we're driving the car. I'm like, I said, parents are under a family crisis. Parents are burnt out. It's, it's now been, you know, deemed by the CDC. Like, yeah. But seriously, we're overwhelmed. And I'm like, yeah, think about, honestly, how it is for, like, people who are parents in this day and age compared to, like, our parents. Back then, like, the cost of living wasn't as much. The cost of raising children wasn't as much. Like, inflation wasn't as high. And so it's like, we're all expected to be working, but then we pay this boatload of money for child care, you know, and I have a lot to say about it, obviously, but that's a whole other topic, I know. And we're less healthy than we ever were. I mean, I know there's a lot of factors and there's genetics and

microplastics and all the things, but I think stress and anxiety plays so much into your physical health. For sure. And I'm not going to make any crazy claims. I think it causes cancer. I think you cannot deny what's happening in your body when you are having those types of emotions. Yeah, I've been sharing a lot about this lately. I feel like it's actually, it's becoming a much more prevalent conversation, but, you know, especially in women. So women, they account for 80% of the autoimmune diseases in this country. They're twice as likely to experience anxiety, depression, you know, emotional, but also chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, chronic pain and digestive issues than men. And again, these are all correlated back to stress. And I think her name is Dana Jack. She's a Harvard psychologist, but she coined this term called self-silencing. And it's something that a lot of women do as a way to accommodate people to make ourselves small, to push down our anger. But what happens is that again, when you suppress that anger and the emotional charge that comes with it, which is adrenaline and cortisol, that anger has to go somewhere. And so it's like you're burying it alive. And it starts to turn inward.

on the body. And that shows up as a lot of these chronic autoimmune health issues that we're seeing. My mom was diagnosed with breast cancer back in 2020, 2021 around that time. And every doctor she saw, they said it was probably kind of dated back to trauma that was unresolved and the intense amounts of stress that she had within her body. Because when your body is stuck in that stress response cycle, every system in your body essentially goes on the back burner. Yeah. Your immune system, your hormone system, your respiratory system, your digestive system, your cardiovascular system, I mean, everything, endocrine system, everything gets turned down so that the nervous system and survival can take priority number one. Yeah, lots to say about that. But especially for women,

it's it's a struggle. So much stress. So much damn stress. So where do we start? You know, you talk about naming your core wounds and the trauma responses that you do have and trying to figure out what those are before we can address them. So where do we like start? For sure. Yeah. Maybe just to like make it more relatable, I can share one little snippet of my story. Yeah, share as much as you want. So I know I shared a little bit. I know we've talked about it extensively, but back in 2009, I was 20 years old at the time. I was assaulted by a stranger who helped me change my flat tire. And then following that, there was a two year like grueling trial process. And so we didn't go to trial for two years. The case was postponed or what we call continued nine times, which meant that nine times over that two-year period, I had to, like,

go through like almost like a dress rehearsal. I had to meet with my legal team, go through the depositions, listen to the tape statements again, practice being on the witness stand. Like it was really, really hard. And so during that two-year period was, that was probably one of the lowest points in my life. I was really struggling with, you know, mental health issues, suicidality, eating disorders, alcohol abuse, pill dependence. And I found myself in a really, really shitty relationship. So the trial came to an end. He was sentenced to 60 years. And I think I thought at the time, like, once he's sentenced or if he's convicted, I'll be fine. All of my problems will go away. Yeah. Like I can get rid of the depression medication, the anxiety. Like I was on a lot of different

medications at the time. And it did not get better. And in fact, it got worse. And I think it's because I didn't have like the trial to like put all of like my focus on anymore. And so, 30 days after the trial, I was in the car with my boyfriend, again, shitty boyfriend, who was pulled over for drinking and driving. And when the police officers went to just pull me out of the car just to give me a ride home, in my drunken mind, I had like this flashback of the night of my assault of a man touching me in a car. And so I went back into what I now know as a practitioner, I went into a trauma reenactment. My nervous system tried to fight back. So during the initial assault, I actually went into a fight response, but I was overpowered, which meant that my nervous system then

went into a freeze or what we call tonic immobility. And I know last time we talked about how 70% of survivors of assault, their nervous system will go into a freeze response. And so when I went back into that fight response that obviously did not bode well for me with some police officers. So I ended up in a jail cell with two counts of battery on an officer with injury. But it was in that jail cell. I was in there for about two or three days because my parents didn't want to like bail me out at first. They want to teach me a hard lesson. But my body experienced things that I had never experienced before. Like I've never been through like drug withdrawal or anything, but I would assume it maybe looks like that. Like there was shaking, there was trembling, there was sweating. There was like

intense tears that I, it felt like I had been storing this for a long time. And I remember leaving that jail cell feeling like so different in my body. I'm even like tearing up. talking about it, I felt so different. Like I felt like free for the first time. I felt lighter. And it makes sense. There's a quote by Peter Levine. He says that trauma is like an internal straitjacket where a devastating moment becomes like frozen in time. And I feel like that was my nervous system releasing like that fight response that I needed to get out for all that time. And that's when I became obsessed. I was like, what the fuck just happened to me in that jail cell? you know, and I remember going to my therapist and she said, you know, she was a talk therapist.

She's like, I think you need to see a somatic therapist. And so that kind of opened the door. But all that to say, your question, like, where do we start? A lot of the work that we did at the beginning was actually just learning how to like listen to my body again because I had become so disconnected from it. So that was like as simple as can you tell me how your body knows to go to the bathroom? And I'm like, what are you talking about? Like I was so confused. And I'm like, well, that's interesting. I guess, like, I feel it, like, down here. Like, how does your body show you when you're thirsty?

How do you know that you want, you know, like Taco Bell instead of McDonald's? Like, how is your body telling you this? Not that I eat any of that anymore. But, you know, like, how does your body tell you a yes? How does your body tell you a no? And so, like, it felt so rudimentary and, like, very elementary, but I'm, like, learning the language of my body. And for a lot of us, after trauma, that's kind of the first step.

is like regaining that agency of like, I'm allowed to listen to my body when it says no. And I'm allowed to like honor that. I'm allowed to listen to my body when it says yes and like honor that. So that's actually where it starts is learning like the unique language of your unique body. That's number one. And then number two is starting to actually learn like what your foundation of what feeling safe and okay is, which is what we call resourcing. Well, what is resourcing?

And we know it's in the book in depth, but just like a broad overview. Yeah. I love using analogies. Imagine like your nervous system is like a security system. And it's always working again subconsciously in the background scanning for like, am I safe? Or am I in danger? Am I safe? My not in danger. And this happens in three places. It happens internally in your body. And again, this is happening outside of our awareness. So like, is my heart beating out of my chest or is it calm? Is my stomach clenching or is it calm? It happens outside in your environment. So like, is a car coming at me right now or can I cross the street? I'm okay. And then it happens between you and other nervous system. So like we're all scanning each other right now, like all of us. Like we're taking in signs of welcome or signs of warning. And so we call this inside, outside between. But when you have

trauma or an experience that's overwhelmed your nervous system and you're stuck in that stress response, imagine it's like that security system is broken. It's constantly alarming for danger, even if the danger isn't there. And so what we have to do is the first step is actually building up cues of safety. So if it's saying like danger, danger, danger, it's like, can we actually start to notice what feels safe or not threatening? And it might be something as simple, again, elementary as like noticing the velvet patterns, like on the curtain behind you, like starting to take in the room, like noticing the pink of the letters and the different contrast here of like, you know, these are banana leaves, right? Did I just make that up?

I think they are. I don't know. Yeah. Sure. So, but like, again, you're showing your nervous system through the senses that there are actually cues of safety, even if it's just neutral, like, around. And as you do that, you then bring your awareness to like, what does this now feel like in my body?

And you might notice like, oh, my shoulders just dropped. Or like, I took a deeper breath down into my belly. Or, wow, I just feel like I settled back into my chair. And it's that experiencing, that somatic, experience that shows the nervous system, we can actually be safe and present here. And that what happened back then is actually not happening right now. So yeah, that's kind of step number two. Is breathing part of this? Like, are you big on breathing exercises and just, okay. Breathing can certainly support the nervous system in finding more regulation. So sometimes like we follow the breath just as a way

to be like, where is the nervous system at right now? Like just tracking. You're like, oh, I'm just holding my breath right now. And it's like, ah, so you're probably in a bit of like a fighter flight response. So we can track the breath to just see like where am I at, how am I feeling. But also we can use the breath to also guide the nervous system. So like in moments where we are noticing that we're holding, it's like, can I imagine what it would be like to take a breath right now? And it's like, oh, and my body just followed that and now I'm doing it. It is weird when you realize you kind of like haven't breathed pretty deep in a while. You're like, have I been holding my breath? Not to the point of like not being able to breathe, but it's just, you feel that.

I don't notice I'm not, well, when I, we go Botox. The doctor's always like, remember. I start to panic when I get Botox and I get really worked up. And the doctor's always like, you got to remember to breathe. You got to breathe. Yeah. And I don't remember to breathe. Like at any sort of doctor's appointment, because people are anxious.

Yeah. You know, absolutely. For the dentist or whatever. Yeah. It's so interesting just having to tell yourself like you're not in danger anymore. I mean, when you went through was very extreme. You were brutally attacked and then had to go through a very, horrible long experience with the trial.

And you could tell yourself all day long, what happened to me was rare is probably not going to happen again. I'm not in that car anymore. I'm not alone at a gas station. Like none of these things, but like you do carry it for so long. So like talk therapy. Yeah, I could talk all day long about how I'm safe. But I like what you're doing in terms of this.

Yeah. Yeah. Again, there's what we know and then there's what we feel and they're often, they're often mismatched. Yeah. So let's focus on some other emotions and maybe going through how to like de-escal physically. Do you want to start with anxiety? Do you want to start with depression? Yeah. So we can start. Let me give another analogy because I think that as I give this analogy,

it's going to make a ton of sense for each of these kind of emotional components that we have. So I'm also trained in something called polyvagal theory, which is like the newest. Are you, I love the smile over there. Are you familiar with it? No, it just sounds interesting. Oh, okay. Cool. Another fun word like vagal, Vegas. Vegas. Well, but it does come from the Vegas. The vagus nerve. Yeah. Vegas nerve. Yeah.

So polyvagal, it is kind of a, yeah, it's kind of a funny word. Yeah. So polyvigal is the newest, like the upgraded science of the nervous system. It was developed back in the 90s by Dr. Stephen Porges, but he uses an analogy of a ladder to kind of illustrate the nervous system. So it's a ladder with three sections, top, middle, and bottom. At the top of the nervous system ladder is like your rest and digest state. That's what we call ventral vagal.

When you are triggered or when you feel activated, your nervous system comes down to the middle of the ladder, which is your fight or flight state. So we call your mobilized state. And again, if we don't allow ourselves to fight or flee or we suppress the emotional charge of anger or fear, then we end up down at the bottom of the ladder, which is what we call shutdown. It's kind of like a freeze response, but it's called your dorsal vagal collapse. And this is where we immobilize.

Now, most people would assume that regulation or having like a regulated nervous system is being at the top of the ladder all day. That's actually not what regulation is. Regulation is being able to move up and down that ladder all day long without getting stuck, which is what we call flexible nervous system. Got it. And we actually do that roughly 100 times a day if you have a regulated system. So that means that like you're going in and out of moments all day long through anxiety, through anger, frustration. When someone like for and cuts you off and you're, you know, you feel a little bit of anger for a moment. And then it starts to calm down. But when we experience something like anxiety, for instance, that's usually experienced in that flight response. And then depression is usually experienced down at the bottom of the ladder down and kind of that, that shutdown response. So that's where they live on the ladder. It's interesting. I don't know if you ever saw this clip. Ashley, Dr. Romany de Rasselah, who came on our show, she was talking about people that like, quote, unquote, they're at the highest level of like mental health are able to move through those cycles very quickly. Oh, yeah. And. And,

that you're able to process this kind of stuff. It's not that you don't feel it, you feel it, but you're able to process it, kick it out. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what we call nervous system resilience, emotional resilience. And a lot of people will refer to that as like your window of tolerance, which we go up and down.

It's kind of like this wave that we go up and down all throughout the day. But yeah, it's not about having like this rigid system that gets stuck in anxiety or down in depression and fatigue or even stuck at the top, which is just emotional avoidance and suppression, right? Like muscling through, which is what, again, we're all really good at. But over time, that can start to create a lot of those health issues. So can we talk about some more of the actionable somatic tools? Yeah. Because like for anxiety for me, like sometimes we wake up in the morning and Ash and I send these texts so many times. It's just like, I'm so overwhelmed. I don't know what to do. I like, I'm paralyzed by it sometimes where I'm like, I'm looking at this giant list and

I don't know what to do. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm even seeing that now. Your eyes just got big and you just leaned forward. So SEs were kind of like trained just in the same way that Peter used to study animals in the wild. That's what we study is like we'll pick up on little micro movements and be like, ah, what's going on right here? And someone would be like, oh, I didn't realize that was going on. So when you say that it feels paralyzing, maybe I'll ask you that question. Is it like hard to get up and get out of bed or does it feel like physically paralyzing or like mentally paralyzing or both? Sometimes just mentally paralyzing. And I'm really, I feel really lucky I don't suffer from extreme anxiety. I'm able to make a list, work through the list. And I have a lot of people around me that are really great at

what they do. And I'm lucky to have a support system at work. But yeah, sometimes I feel like there's so much, it feels insurmountable. Like where, where do I start? And so I just stare at the fucking list. And I pace around the house, pour another coffee, walk around. Right. Yeah. Just distract. Yeah. Yes. So it sounds like you have a good strategy in place. But even just like the pacing, right? The pacing helps your body to reorient. So like if we're just staring here and then it's like I'm finding that now I'm collapsing into my bed and I can't do like, I can't do a thing because I'm so overwhelmed. I'm so exhausted. I don't even want to think about the list. The pacing actually helps to allow your body to let out some of that adrenaline cortisol. So you already, you're already naturally doing

that. Yeah. So what's funny is like I get this one question a lot. Do you all have animals? I do. Well, I do. I do. Okay. Do you have a cat or dog? I have a dog. Does your dog get zoomies? yeah okay i mean i wish he got him more but i know because he's i don't know he's not a big player but he gets um yeah and it's like the cutest thing ever yes so zoomies so for those who are listening like you know our pets get zoomies yeah when they're like excited or when they like that's their way of self-regulating and letting out energy but kids also get zoomies so like my children turn into freaking terrors late at night any parent who's listening they'll be like yes my children do the exact state. You all know what I'm talking about.

Totally. Kids get zoomies at night. And people are like, how do I calm down my kids? And what's actually important to recognize is that like your, your kids are trying to naturally discharge or release some of that adrenaline and cortisol that's been accumulated throughout the day. Well, that's recess too. Exactly. That's why we needed to do recess.

We're kids. I can't sit all day. Absolutely. You know what I heard the other day, though? It's funny. My husband, I wish y'all could just be a fly on them all for our conversations. A couple weeks ago, I was like, did you know that recess? I was hearing the other day, recess has been minimized in some places to like only 20 minutes.

Yeah, no. Oh, I thought ours was 15 minutes growing up. I don't think it was that long. Well, maybe I just felt like mine was a long time. It was longer than that. I mean, but we had, we just had it better. We gym too. We went back to class in our sweaty gym clothes. Like, it's not the same. They don't, guys, I thought recess was obsolete in some schools even. That was just so important. Yes. It's not even given like every single day in a lot of schools. That's crazy. It's just every other day or it's like an elective. the parents want to do it. Yeah.

But kids need to like let out. Yeah. Yeah. So with anxiety and like when we have all this kind of pent up stress, I like to also think of another analogy. Y'all are going to be like, I do not want to hear the word analogy. No, they're really great. It helps.

Well, I like to visualize too. Yes. Okay. Good. So think of it like a pressure cooker, right? Like you have all these stress hormones that have been building up all throughout the day accumulating in this pressure cooker. And if we're not taking the time to like,

open the lid and release some of that stress, that is how we get to the place where it's like we are either that pressure cooker is exploding, which is like panic attacks or rage or rage, frustration, or it implows, which is where we end up in like burnout and depression. So with kids, naturally, again, because they're not these like conditioned creatures, they're like, I'm going to fucking go crazy tonight and I'm going to just start running around the living room. I'm going to rip everything down. I'm going to turn into like a terror. But that's their body. natural way of like opening the lid and releasing some of that so that then they naturally come back into, oh, now it's rest and digest. It's nighttime. Yeah. So like these are the natural rhythms that

we as humans have. Again, we just get so conditioned to like holding that lid close so that we don't ever let any of that stress out. So when we have anxiety, I like to think of instead of calming down, what is your anxiety want to do right now? And just think of it as like instead of I am, anxious, say that like my body is anxious right now. And we call this separate witness consciousness. And sometimes that can help to kind of separate it and be like, my body is experiencing anxiety? And is there something it wants to do right now? Yeah. Maybe I just like want to pace. So I'll often ask, like, is there something your body wants to do right now? And I'll see my client get up on the other side of the Zoom screen. They might pace. They might start to like kind of shake out their arms. Yeah,

they might start to like roll their necks. They might do a stretch, which is what we call a pandiculation. So it's like their body tenses, right? And then it's, yeah, that's a natural discharge. So you're already doing the thing without realizing that you're doing the thing. Well, I always say like, you know, some people journal I take walks. I just, I really enjoy just like I like to move my body, look around, see other sensations around me, look at houses, feel the weather, you know, hear sounds around me. That helps me. That's a lot of it too.

The, so exactly what you were just talking about, like listening into the world around you. that's what we call orienting. So our body is always orienting again subconsciously, this whole scanning that's happening. But when we get stuck in survival mode, we don't realize it, but we're stuck in what we call a defensive orienting posture. So like our muscles are usually constricted. We're often, as we were saying, holding our breath without recognizing it. We're often holding our bellies and our viscera. Our spine changes. So, I mean, everything changes in the body, but so does our sensory motor system. So like when you're stuck in fight or flight, for instance, your lower ear muscles are activated to listen to the sounds of low range frequencies,

which is the sounds that predators make, evolutionarily speaking. So like loud bangs, thuds, like that can startle you. When you're in like a rest and digest state, your middle ear muscles are activated to listen to the sounds of midrange frequencies, which are humans. So like you can taken, you know, voices better. You can have deeper conversations. But that's why, like, when people are in fight or flight and they're like, I feel like my partner just does not listen to me. It doesn't hear a word that I'm saying. We're fighting. It's like, yes, because you're not primed to listen to each other right now. You are primed for protection. You know, a good cheat to think of it, too, is like the top of the nervous system ladder prioritizes connection. So, like, when you're in,

rest and digest, what your system is prioritizing is connection to yourself and your body, connection to the world and connection to others. When you move down into fight or flight, you're now prioritizing protection. And then at the bottom, your body and your nervous system is prioritizing disconnect. So this is where we isolate. We disconnect from others. We can disconnect from our bodies. There's a lot of dissociation that can happen. We have higher levels of numbing hormones, which is why like our grief can be so intense that we don't feel it. I've always said you just have to get the pain out of your body or whatever you're dealing with and whether we're talking about breakups or when we talked about my dog passing away.

Like things like that. I'm like you just, and I think women typically do it better, you know, whether it's the crying and then a lot of times unloading all your friends and things like that. But to me, it's like an exercise. I mean, I just have like, I got to get this out. And I can't believe how much better I feel afterwards. And it's like I'm also like a which exercise is it. Like when I was younger, if I felt really like angry or stressed, I would run.

And now I'd get on the peloton. And I literally make a different person when I get off. But I remember going through one breakup that I was so anxious. My heart rate was beating so fast already. And the cardio made it worse. And I was like, I actually have to come down. Yeah. So it was like my body doesn't need the jacking at my heart rate when I'm already like crazy.

I have to like go to yoga and bring it down more. I don't know. So that's just me. But I wouldn't. Brandon knows. I mean, she's been friends with me this long. We've been on the road. Like I'll be like, I can't do anything until I go to yoga.

I can't do anything until I go find a gym and, you know, work some of this out. Like I just have to get. get it out. Sure. Yeah. So I don't know if like exercise is part of what you talk about. I mean, also everybody's different too. I always say there's learning about the nervous system, which this book definitely teaches you all about the science. And then there's learning about your nervous system, which can be something totally different. And this book helps you with that too. There's what we call the nervous system or the polyvagal maps that like you can fill out to learn like what triggers my nervous system. Sure. And do a fight response. And do a flight response. That's going to look so different for

everyone. Yeah. So like you talk about movement for anxiety. What about like breathing or yelling or talking? Like is there other things verbally you can do? Limshaking. Yeah. Limbshaking can definitely be one of them. I'll give you the what I call the 3E formula to kind of like work through it. So the first thing you want to do is when you notice that you're experiencing anxiety, the first E is experience. And the question is, how is my body experiencing this right now? And you might notice like I'm holding my breath or my muscles feel constricted or I'm feeling foggy in my brain or my stomach is in knots. So first we want to track the experience. And then the second E is then asked the question, is there any way that my body wants to naturally express this right now? So that might be that like, yeah, there is a little bit of

stretching or there's a little bit of like shaking that wants to happen or sometimes like for me, I notice when I get anxious, there's just like some trembling in my hand. And I'm like, can I just allow this to be here? And so experience express. And as we express, we often notice that there's then expelling. That is the discharge of the adrenaline and cortisol that happens. And you'll usually know that a discharge is happening when it's followed by tingling in your limbs. So for instance, when you go into fight or flight, like all of your blood motility goes outward to your limbs to mobilize you to fight or flight. That's why like when you're anxious, you feel fidgety. You might feel hot or sweaty. When you're in that fight response, you feel really heated. And so what follows usually that is

coolness. So there's usually like a cool tingling in like your hands or limbs. You might notice that there's a sigh, there's a swallow. And as you go into rest and digest, you also might notice that like you literally might burp or your stomach is like gurgling because your digestive system is like coming back online. So it's going to look different for everyone. But usually some kind of physical movement. However, I will say the one thing I've noticed a lot like on social media is like people being like, okay, we just need to get out our emotions and just release it. And So like let's do some rage screaming or like some shaking or some jumping up and down. And the thing is with that is that if any time, let's say it's anger, okay, anytime anger comes up and you're like, oh, it's here.

I got to go do that thing and I got to get it out. Then what's going to happen is like, it's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. I got to get it out. Then what's going to happen is anytime that comes up and you try and use some kind of like tool or hack to get it out, you will always be doing that. because it's like you're not sending the message to your body that this anger is actually allowed to be here.

Another analogy I use, I told you there's a lot of them, is like a hole in the sand. So like think of, you know, a hole in the sand at the beach. And this hole is what we call your capacity. So like, for instance, it's not that the anger is too big in this moment. Like if we're overwhelmed, it's that our capacity to be with the anger is too small. So we want to grow that capacity, which is that hole in the sand. So the anger represents the water that rushes in to the hole. And our tools, like the breathing or the shaking or, you know, whatever things we do,

that represents the sand buckets that we use to get the water out. So every time there's water in that hole and we go rush to use the sand buckets to get it out, that hole is never going to expand. But if we allow a little bit of the anger to come in, it starts to erode away at the hole and it becomes bigger. And so that's one of the hangups I do see right now in the semantics. spaces that people are so obsessed with the tools that they're always jumping for them, rather than just noticing, can my body be with the experience?

It doesn't know how to naturally express it and expel it. So the tools can be helpful, but not leaning into them all the time. If that makes sense, because then it almost becomes like another form of avoidance. I need to get this out. Something you have to do. Because I'm trying to figure out what the difference is because you are also endorsing those tools. You're just saying like a little more like self-reflection first.

a little more like sitting with it and not relying being, and then you become dependent on it. Yeah. You're like, oh, okay, now every time I have anger, I got to go scream. Yes. And I'm at work. Yeah. This is weird.

And, you know, like, can we do? You start bringing a pillow at a way. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think because the, the tools are so incredibly helpful. But that's why there's an entire chapter in the book called somatic practices before

you begin. And it gives you like a roadmap of like when to use. these. And so maybe I can give the briefest overview of like when you can use them. Yeah. Let's just use anger again as an example. If the anger feels unbearable, like it's like I can't be with this and now I'm starting to dissociate from my body, that's a moment when you can use a tool to find like resource, right? So can I do like some some resourcing, some orienting, noticing again through my senses. But if the anger feels tolerable, like you're noticing the experience, you're like there's some heat rising here and as there's heat rising I'm noticing there's clenching in my

jaw and then you ask the question is there a natural expression that comes or can I express then that might be one of the moments where you use one of the tools in the book where it feels tolerable it's like maybe it's just clenching my fists maybe it's just doing an air scream maybe it is just visualizing like whoever my ferocious animal is and seeing how that feels in my body and now it's like oh as I'm doing that now there's tears coming and like my body is really expressing. So it's in the moments where it feels tolerable enough. And if the body just needs like a gentle push to kind of let stuff out.

Okay. Yeah. It feels like anger and anxiety. There's some real physical tools like get that out of your body. But when you're like the different part of the ladder, which is like depression and burnout. Yeah. When you're just like I don't, yeah, I'm not taking a walk. Yeah.

I can't go out of bed. Yeah. So where do we start? And obviously this is a lifetime of work. We can't wrap it up in 15 minutes. But what do we say to those type of people? Yeah. So there's three themes that I talk a lot about when you're down and shut down at the bottom of the ladder. So like if you are at the absolute bottom, and this is like a lot of the people that I work with that have depression, can't get out of bed, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, a lot of chronic pain.

That is more so when you're down at the very bottom, you actually want to prioritize rest and conservation. The last thing you want to do is actually put more strain and stress on your system to get out of this place because that's just going to increase your adrenaline and cortisol. And it's hard because when you are in those places, like, especially if you've been there chronically for a long time, there's like this urgency or almost this desperation of like, I don't want to live like this anymore. And so that's why I think like learning about the science and realizing that your body knows exactly how to protect you and it's trying to just slow you down so you can catch up can be really helpful. So if you're in the middle of that kind of bottom part of shutdown. This is where like you don't have a hard time getting

out of bed, but like you are feeling exhausted. You're feeling a little depleted, a little numb. Here is where you actually want to prioritize. Like how can I bring more connection back in? So remember shutdown is a state of disconnection. So here like we have those high levels of numbing hormone. So it's like how can I connect with my environment? And one of the things you had mentioned is like listening to the birds or like having windows open, temperature exposure can be really helpful. not like cold plunges, especially for women that will stress your system a little too much. And now you are stressing your system rather than stretching it. Instead, it's like, can I stand in front of the freezer for a moment? Or can I just go outside and like drink my coffee outside with the cool

air this morning? Can I feel the temperature of my coffee mug on my hands? Very light temperature exposure. So again, leaning into the senses, also co-regulation. So like whether it's with pets or other humans, that's connection. So that can help you to connect. And then if you're at the top part of that little shutdown at the bottom, this is where you're about to move into fight or flight. Here, the question is not let's rest, not let's connect, but now it's, is there anything I can do to start to just gently promote a little bit of that mobilizing again, like just to barely like touch the lid open of that pressure cooker? So that might be like stretching, going for a walk, not like, you know, getting my 15,000 steps in, but like, can I just go around the block for a second and see how that

feels? And always checking in like, how does this feel in my body when I'm done with this? Do I feel more exhausted, then let's take a break. Or more energized. Exactly. That means, oh, my system's starting to move back up into fight or flight where I can discharge. Great. I like the ladder. We love the ladder. I'm really, I'm really pictured that ladder. Yeah, I know. Right. And I think there's like a lot of really serious physical responses to all these things. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what do you see a lot? people ask you about a lot. It's either physical. So again, a lot of like the physical health stuff we're seeing now, like the chronic conditions, the exhaustion, a lot of chronic pain. Did you read three women? I've been reading through it a year ago. Lisa Todayo, it's like this book and she

basically writes about these three women, like three real women. She followed them for years to share their stories and their personal lives and their sex lives. And the one really stuck out to me. She was in this terrible marriage and he wouldn't kiss her or touch her. And she was in chronic pain. And she started having this not really affair because then she did break up with her husband. Spoiler alert guys. Well, the book's like 10 years old. And she would stop being in pain. And this is like not fiction. I mean, this was just like a true story. This is not like a hot take. I'm sure people have had this experience. But like truly chronic pain, chronic fatigue and due to her just place in life and her personal relationship and like kind of.

finding that joy again with somebody, like, took it all away. That stuck up to me so much, how she would go see this other guy and be like, I wasn't in pain that day. Like literally, like, pain in your body. I don't know. It was a great book also. Ashley and I and Tessa, we all recommend it. Yeah. You said it's called three women. Three women, yeah. Yeah. When we are stuck in, in survival mode, if we're stuck there long enough, it can definitely create physical pain in the body. because I think what I started saying earlier, but maybe I didn't finish it, is like the body, when we're stuck in survival mode, it gets stuck in what we call a defensive orienting posture. So again, we hold, we're bracing.

It is in this place of not ease in the body, but dis-ease, which is what Gabor Mata often says. It's this place of dis-ease in the body, this chronic holding, defensive holding that then creates disease, physical pain, physical, you know, components. And you see that a lot in posture as well. And even for me after my assault, you know, the body is always telling us through body memory a story. You can see it. And you might not be able to see it now. Here, let me sit up more straight.

It's better. But this shoulder is slightly lower than the other. And so I was attacked from the right hand side. And one of the things I had mentioned is that I tried to fight back, but I was overpowered. And so what happened is the right side of my body actually went into like a tonic immobility state. But you saw it in the way that I would talk. Like, and even still, you see it a little. bit. The right side comes down a little bit of my mouth. The right side of my shoulder came down. And that's

where essentially my body went into a collapse posture. I remember going to see like chiropractors and doing all this work, like this body work. I'm like, what the hell is wrong with me? And when I start working with a somatic therapist, she's like, your body is still stuck in a freeze response on this side. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I was very dissociated. Like I remember when I would cry, there wasn't a lot of tears that would come. It was, it was bizarre. But the body again, like the way that we hold it, the way we clenched, the way that we let go, the way that there's helplessness or collapse, that's the body showing us or telling us the history of the things that we wanted to do that maybe we couldn't, you know, in the past. And so we hold that a lot. And we see that in different

pain points. So like when there is pain like between the top back shoulders, like, you know, between the shoulder blades, that's usually like where there were unmet attachment needs, like in early childhood. Oh, wow. You know, the jaw tension, of course, I'm sure, you all know that has to do with like suppressed anger, right? So like a lot of TMJ, but also chronic migraines, especially lower migraines that can have to do with emotional suppression. You know, the diaphragms hold different kinds of emotions and pain points. The liver, if we have liver issues, that's often related to anger. So like the body is incredibly, you start to look into it. It's like, oh, that's why I feel that or why I don't feel that there. That must be just a great release moment

also for people that you work with, like, that have gone to talk therapy for so long that are like, I still have chronic pain. I still, I don't sleep. I have stomach aches. My heart's always racing. Like when people realize that I can't just like think my way out of this. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. It's like validating. Can we just maybe talk a little bit about like romantic relationships and when you are somebody who carries trauma in the body or, you know, my one friend who has suffered from a lot of anxiety, she always says like, well, I'm a lot to deal with for a partner. You know, I'm a lot. And I think that we worry that we don't know how to express this to a partner. and how they can help us without maybe turning somebody into your own therapist, and they're not

qualified to do that for you. So, like, how do we talk to a partner about this? Yeah, I think, you know, what can often be helpful is in, first of all, the recognizing that our partner doesn't necessarily have to, like, make room for our trauma or fix our trauma. It's more so just being met with, like, empathy. I think that can be really important. But also, So it's really, I think, understated sometimes how much another person's calm or their own regulation supports ours. So there's, you know, this wonderful science that we all have called co-regulation. And so when you're around someone enough, your nervous system starts to mirror theirs. And we actually learn to co-regulate as humans before we self-regulate.

So like when a child is upset, they'll reach for mom and dad because they don't know how to self-regulate first. And so in just recognizing that maybe your partner doesn't have to have the answers for you, they don't have to be your therapist, but maybe just telling them in moments when I'm activated, in moments where I'm feeling anxious, you maybe don't have to fix it for me. Because again, there's nothing wrong with you. Your anxiety is normal. Yeah. It's more so, can I borrow your calm in those moments? Or like, can I borrow your regulation? That's actually much more powerful than a partner who's trying to make it go away because then it's like it's sending again. this internal message of like, I'm now warring against my anxiety. And the more that we do that, the more that we resist it, the more that it just persists. So I think, yeah, that can actually be really helpful. If you have a partner who's capable of that, by the way. Yeah. So sometimes you're just with the wrong partner. Yeah. Like, yeah, I mean, I had a partner that activated me like into a different version of myself and my fiance now. It's just like, oh my God, he's just like changed my life. He's helped me with my bad habits. I'm so calm all the time. Like he's just a calming presence.

but would you even go so far as like asking, you know, can you just hold me or rub my back or like hold my hands? Like are you like physically, do you find that that helps? I mean, I think so. Yes. You know. So for some bodies and some nervous systems that can absolutely be helpful because that's one of what we call our first imprints of co-regulation is through touch. Yeah. Through touch. But if that wasn't given to us, it can actually feel really activating. Okay. So for some people, it can feel activating. And that's why like teaching people, how to support us or teaching people how to help us co-regulate can be helpful because that's going to look different for everyone. I do have a question for you though, if it's okay. Yeah. So you said

this last, last person activated you now, person that you're with. Lovely. Are you a different person than you were between the relationships? Yeah. I was like laugh. Right. I was laughing. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know her back then, but she is a different person. Yeah. I mean, and you weren't like so terrible before, but like you are a calmer presence. And that's, that's, that's self-work and that's all, you know, I don't want to attribute everything to him. That's exactly what I'm talking about, but lately I had this feeling, and I was curious what you'd say about this, that like, he brought out a bad side of me, and vice versa. You know, he had a lot of trauma I did not know how to deal with. Like, I was at fault too. Like, we were a bad match. I think we

had a great connection until we didn't. And then we were just really toxic together. It was a pretty bad cycle. But I can't believe who I became in that relationship with the yelling and the screaming and like stuff that I didn't experience any other relationship before, after, with friends. friends with family, like, again. So I do think he brought out that side of me. That was like activated all the time. But I, in general, I used to be so much more activated and angry and irritated and would like react quickly. And I've worked on it so much. And I was thinking recently, I feel like I've overcorrected a little bit because I feel like, no, I think sometimes. There we are.

Yeah. Shut up. I'm with you. I think recently, I feel like I've had some situations where I get mad later. I'm in the moment, I'm like, it's fine, it's fine. And I think I'm fine, but I was thinking about this recently. Like, there's been a couple instances recently where I actually was kind of angry at something that happened and I kind of had to revisit it. But do you feel like, like sometimes we just catch astray. Like you just get hit by a bullet and you're like, wait, what?

And then an hour later, I'm like, I didn't react to that. That's crazy. Like, is it like that? Because you just, you don't expect it. Yeah. Sometimes you're caught off guard. And also you just, you might be in a group setting, a social setting. You're not going to pop off at somebody, you know, and you go home and you think about it and you get mad.

And I think we all wish we could react perfectly in the moment. But I think about this thing that happened one time with the girlfriend at dinner. And she said something that like I really, it took me a while to process and digest how honestly insulting it was. And I in the moment was kind of like, that's fine. Yeah. Whatever. And then like walking home, I was furious. Yeah.

And I haven't, we haven't really talked since. I mean, it just was so offensive. And I'm wondering if just how I used to be would have caught it or I'm more of like, keep the peace, don't yell at dinner like you used to, you're 20s, you know, and now. Or it's just we're all human and we don't really know what's happening in the moment. And we're like it takes us a minute. It sounds to me like you're just less reactive. A hundred percent.

That's why Raina laugh so hard. Like that's the main change in me over the years. I just, I find it more like there's this, this volume dial that like when we're reactive, that means that like our younger or past selves are in the driver's seat. And there is this wonderful human. You guys might know him. His name is Dr. Russell Kennedy. Okay.

He's the anxiety MD. He's an author, but he's a good colleague. And I actually quote him in the book. He says that a trigger, which when we're reactive, we're just triggered, a triggered is an emotional age regression.

Oh, so it's an emotional age regression. We are triggered back in time to something. Yeah. And so that's why my question was like, have you changed and you said you've, I don't, I don't want to give him all the credit.

I don't want to be like, it's just him. Like, I think she has changed. Oh, before my fiance? Yeah, it was way different.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that she has just taken a beat. Oh, I think we were doing him credit. Yeah. Well,

I'm saying in this relationship, but like I think that we do, when you feel that you have a partner that makes you feel emotionally safe, that you feel heard, you don't feel attacked. You feel like you can express how you feel and they're going to actually digest that and say something back to you that's

respectful and calm. I think that you can, show up as a different person. And like I see it with my two parents. Like both of them could say the exact same thing to me. And I would flip out if my mom said it. My dad could say it. I'd be like, well, that's what's up.

Whatever. You write. Okay. It does be like that. But, you know, it depends on who you're speaking to and the history you have with them. And I think that like you already had become a person who was calm. Yeah.

Yeah. But can we talk about this whole getting mad later? Because it's tough to go back to people. Okay. I want to explain that situation that you're talking about a little bit. better. I think that you were in a social situation with people that you had a long history with, that you felt safe around, that you are used to sharing a lot with. And you might just not have realized in the moment how insulting it is because you're like, well, we share everything and we talk

about stuff. And I feel safe emotionally right now. And then you're like, what the fuck? But even over the course of dinner, I started to be like, I don't feel safe anymore. Like sharing kind of these things and I just like stomped all the way home. And it's just kind of one of those things of like, it is hard to go back and be like, I know I acted cool in the moment, but I'm mad now, you know, because it's almost the inverse. Typically, you react in the moment and then you calm down where it's a weird thing to be chill in the moment and then be like, just buzz, buzz, I'm pissed you. But I actually think that that is much healthier, much, much healthier.

Yeah. But I'm going to fall back for one second. Now I'm going to come back to this. So what I wanted to say was you don't choose the person in your life. You don't choose the people in your life. Your nervous system does. And so the state of your nervous system is going to mirror the state of your relationships. So it makes sense that you said, I was a little bit more angry and just frustrated and

like reactive back then. So like your nervous system is going to attract the people that bring that out in you. And now, it sounds like you said, you've done some self-improvement or you're like at this more calm place, you're less reactive. You're now attracting those people into your life who have that. So accurate. Yeah. And that's why we say someone that you're supposed to be with should make you feel calm

and feel secure and not anxious. and butterflies mistaken for the slow burn is the best it really is so i i wonder you can share as much a little about your husband i know i was going to ask you i'm just going to say everything about him i love talking about him i dated somebody for a while who grew up with some very extreme physical abuse who was beaten up by their parent in the home a lot growing up and it was hard to have like arguments with him because we just were not hearing each other and i come from a i was physically safe growing up very much so. It was really hard to communicate in a fight because he just, Ashley said, he just, he starts from a different place of emotional well-being than you do. And so we heard each other very

differently. And I was maybe the wrong partner for him and also had we stayed together, I would have absolutely been very happy to go to therapy and talk about how to communicate better, of course. But like if somebody does come from, you know, his whole life was trauma, you had a traumatic experience. And then they want, they, they're in a relationship with somebody else, like, how does that partner kind of like meet you, talk to you, hear you in a fight, because you are coming from a different place. For sure. So I think, and actually, I think what you're talking about the experience with your friend

and what you're talking about, yeah, are actually very similar here. And it's that what we can find as we're starting to like heal and regulate is that the pause, like the pause of I just, I'm having some space rather than being like reactive in the moment. When we're reactive, we again know that those are, that's like unheeled stuff that's showing up and driving the car right now, driving the bus. Having a pause and taking time to reflect on your own and to regulate on your own and to listen to like, what did upset me about that? Like what boundaries were crossed?

What is my body showing me? What is my brain telling me right now? And then going back and being like, hey, you know, I've actually had some time to like marinate on this a little bit. I felt something during that experience. And I want to communicate that to you now. like now that I've had some time to really process it. And I think that in relationships, you know, intimate relationships, when you have a partner that comes from a place of a lot of

trauma background and maybe like your way of communicating is like, and for David and I, it was very much so. Like I'm very much so was an anxious attachment, codependent, clingy, like in relationships, he was the opposite. He was avoidant. And by the way, that's so natural that you attract often the opposite when you're trauma bonding, right? Because, his running away triggered my impulse to chase after him. And then my impulse to chase after him prompted his running away. And so it was like this dance of us kind of meeting in the middle and just being committed to like, we love each other enough to make it work. And we took it slow. And it was not perfect. It took us like four or five years to even get engaged. You know, like it just took

time, but I think that having the consistent commitment of when we disconnect, which is what we call a rupture in a relationship, when there's a rupture, as long as we're committed to the repair, we will be able to, like, meet in the middle. And now I'm at a place now where I feel like I have this really securely attached style in my life because of him. And what we found worked is that, like, when we had moments where there was a disagreement or a rupture, kind of similar to like your friend, we would go and self-regulate. And it's like, I need a moment to myself to like regulate on my own. And then he needed to do the same.

And then we would come back together when we're in a place of more like, okay, now we've self-regulated. Now we're at the top of the ladder and bringing the ladder back in. And we're in a place where like connection is important. So it's like we were able to communicate and listen to each other. But that's the whole art of pausing of like we don't need to figure this out right now. I know a lot of people say like, don't go to bed angry. It's more so like don't go to bed with a forced apology.

I feel like that is actually really important. Like a forced apology is so inauthentic and that's not true authentic connection and repair. Yeah. There's one thing I've improved on and changed completely. It's just the not reacting in the moment. Like I don't know why I used to be so like, I got to tell them right now that I'm mad. And I'm like a different person. Like my fiance did something that wasn't even if I just, it was something I wanted to address.

And I wait at the next day. Like it just, I feel calm. I feel like we'll talk about it and we'll figure it out. And it doesn't have to be right now. I don't know. I just. But I'm also sure it's been the small moments that have built up over time that have shown your nervous system that even when there's conflict, I know that we're going to

be okay tomorrow. And some of that's been with Raina. Like over time with Raina, like I feel like being a partner with Raina all these years has helped me work on all of those things. Yes. Yeah. Let's credit the real relationship. Yeah.

It wasn't him. I was perfect when I got with him. It was you that had to help me. She was like, I have set the standard. I have set the standard. He hasn't done anything. I was good when I entered into that because of all years of work with you. Lucky me.

No, but there was a situation I was saying to you with him, the situation is irrelevant. It wasn't like a big deal. But I said to you like you're able to respond to this in like a calm, a calm, a calm and calm because you know that you're up against a person that loves you that is kind and calm that's attacking you. And that what you said, the commitment and the consistency, you know, we talked with a previous guest about an anxious and avoidant pairing. And like if it's going to work, that just has to be some agreed upon consistency and a commitment. And that's the only way. And is exactly what you said. But does he come from any trauma as well? He does. Yeah. Yeah. And I actually, I share a little bit about that in the book. I shared with his permission, of course. Yeah. Yeah. He comes from a background. You know, his parents were divorced. And his dad was just very emotionally not present in his life, very much so also not physically present in his life. He was an only child. And there was some infidelity that, you know, kind of, kind of happened in

the marriage. And so, yeah, there's some feelings of abandonment for him, but his turned into, like, just push people away. Right. Because people are going to let you down. And my fear of abandonment is people are going to leave, so we need to cling on. Right. But I think that what you're talking about, that consistency, we always say, because there's what we know in our mom. mind, right? Which is like, this person isn't out to get me. This person isn't going to harm me. Like, I've been harmed in the past. Like, I know, but why am I so damn reactive? It's the experience over time that then creates evidence for the nervous system that, like, this person is safe to have an argument with. And it's okay to have conflict. It's okay to have a disagreement. We're going to be

okay. It's the experience that creates evidence, which then creates expectation. So it's like, you now have this new standard in relationships where there's this expectation of when there's conflict, I expect that I'm going to be able to find repair or that I'm going to be able to talk it through. And so what's wonderful is that like no matter how shitty the background you come from, like with your parents and attachment wounding or caregivers or trauma, you can have new attachment styles formed in any adult relationship. And it doesn't have to be an intimate partner. I'm sure that the two of you actually, the dynamic that you have has created a lot of that expectation too, right, in relationships, which is probably what helped you to attract that.

And I think people worry that like all hope is lost. Like I'm, I'm an anxious attachment. And I have been anxious, avoidant and secure. The whole rainbow in different relationships. Yes. And well, and I think that's important to note too.

Thank you so much for mentioning that because I think people can get, people can really like self-identify with like, you know, this is who I am or kind of as you said, your friend is like, I'm just too much in relationships. And what's important to know is like our attachment style is so, so fluid.

It changes. And I always say it's like these percentages. So like in my really like, I'm chasing, I'm clinging. I was 80% anxious, probably like 5% avoidant, 5% disorganized, 10% secure. So like you're actually a little bit of all the above. It's just that it changes and it's fluid. And so I think that's important to note that like these styles are here for a reason. They help us in relationships to manage stress and conflict.

But also, I think this is also where parts work can come in. So like you were asking how can I help a partner who's been. through, whatever. Parts work is where you say, a part of me feels upset with you right now. Or like, a part of me wants nothing to do with you right now. I don't even want to see your face, but another part of me loves you. And I know we'll talk about it tomorrow. So that's where like, you can really express like, I'm really fucking pissed. But I also love you. Let's work it out tomorrow. Which is important for anyone that has even the slightest bit of abandonment issue where you think, and everybody has a different type of upbringing trauma, you think the fight is that's over.

if they're walking out, the relationship is over. Like, I just love that you gave the encouragement and the optimism that you're not just damaged goods forever if you have these issues, this trauma, this abandonment. Like, you can repair it with a, yes, a romantic partner or a friend or, like, different relationships throughout your life. Yeah. Your children. Yeah.

And I really encourage people, I'm sure you should, too, to notice how your partner makes you feel in your body. And, you know, I was just, I was thinking literally the same thing. We're co-regulating. Co-regulating. That was wild. I've seen friends in relationships like this or, you know, I've been relationships where I'm like, being in this relationship makes me feel really bad in my body. I had this relationship with somebody who just cheated on me all the time and I never knew he was.

And when we broke up, it was the greatest relief I have ever felt. The feeling of, oh my God, this isn't my problem anymore in my body superseded any sadness I felt about losing somebody who I loved, who was my good friend who I cared about. like I just was like, oh, my body feel, I can sleep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, if your partner doesn't make you feel like that, if you're like, I can't get through the day, like, check.

Yeah, you're like, yeah. People lose their hair. I mean, that's why you lose your hair when you get stressed or you have ulcers or whatever. Like, there's really no denying that all that stuff lives in our body. I mean, we've just watched women just fall apart in these relationships that are bad. I mean, they ruin your life. They ruin your health. It's a delicate balance because there's part of you that's like,

if we have not faced yet some of those older wounds, right? We haven't done the self-healing, self-improvement. What we often find is that, like, we're chasing these old patterns and these old experiences and we're just mirroring them in our present day. Right. So like the abuse that we experienced maybe in childhood or something like that, that's now showing up here in our present day. And we're trying to control or create a different outcome.

And so that can be number one. But at the same time, this is what's really interesting. when you do find a partner that you can let your protective armor off. We always say your nervous system is like your armor. You'll often find that you do attract a partner who is going to trigger in you the things that need to be healed. Because the more that you feel safe and you let that armor down, it's more that your body is like, hey, those things that you went through in the past that we've really kind of stuffed away and hidden in plain sight, we can now heal that here.

And so there will be times where like these old things will start to emerge and you're like, oh, is this a sign that like I'm chasing? Regressing. Yeah, regressing. And so I think that that is again where it comes to the question of like, as this comes up, do I feel safe enough to like move through this with the partner? Do I feel like they're committed? Because David and I have had a lot of stuff come up in our relationship.

And it's been incredibly therapeutic for us to like work through it together. It's never felt like, oh shit, this means it's the end. Yeah. You know, it's kind of like, oh, yeah, this is here. And maybe this is just a sign that like we're taking off that armor, you know? Yeah. I'm glad that you found that. Yeah.

He's great. He's just driving around with the kids. Okay. We'll let you go. No, no. You called me. She's just naping. I think there's a baby with her.

That's not really going to work through it recording. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. He dropped me off. But then my car was still connected to the Bluetooth. So when I called you, I'm like, hello, why am I not hear anything? You rolled down to when he's like, you're on the Bluetooth. And I just hear this.

I think he hung up right away. I think he hung up from the car. Well, you have been wonderful to have back. And congratulations on the book. And you've really dedicated your life to helping people. and it's a beautiful thing. And I'm sure people want more of you and your website and your book and everything. The DMs are open, you guys.

DMs are open. Yes, please reach out. No, and I appreciate that. And I think the one takeaway that I have for people is that like, this book doesn't heal you, you heal you. And I always love saying that just because the book is kind of like it's a template or like a guidebook back to yourself. Again, in recognizing that like, oh, that pain that I have, oh, that anxiety that I have,

oh, those things that I have are actually my body's natural way of protecting me and, like, managing and moving through overwhelming things in my life. Great. And then tell everybody your Instagram where people can find you. Yeah, they can find me on social media at Heal with Britt, two T's. Not like Britney Spears. And she could use some healing. Yeah.

She could use some healing. Poor thing. Yeah. Get well, Bernie. I do love Bernie Spears. I remember telling my dad, she was iconic. I still do. Love her.

She does need some healing. She does need some healing, man. All right, so back to you. Yes. Two T's. Yes. Yes. Yield with Britt with T's.

You can find me on Instagram or TikTok. And then if you want to learn more about the book or working with me or joining the Body First Healing program, just go to bodyfirst healing.com. Okay. Bodyfirsthealing.com. Amazing. Easy breezy. We are Girls Got to Eat.com. Girls Got to Eat podcast on Instagram and TikTok.

I'm Ash Hess. Raina is reina. Greenberg. Subscribe on YouTube. Share this episode with a friend. And we will see you Thursday. Have a good week, guys. Bye.