Girls Gotta Eat - How to Be More Securely Attached in Relationships with Dr. Amir Levine

Episode Date: June 15, 2026

We are beyond honored to be joined by the modern master of adult attachment theory – Dr. Amir Levine! The neuroscientist and co-author of the bestselling book Attached, and his new release Secure, is here to explain the four attachment styles and how they dictate our lives, and how anyone (yes, anyone) can become more secure in romantic relationships, friendships, family dynamics, and more. He walks us through the five attributes of secure attachment (CARRP), and the importance of seemingly insignificant minor interactions (SIMIs). We talk about whether an avoidant person and an anxious person can work out romantically, his technique of “wall tennis with love” to use with an avoidant, why predictability in a partner is hot not boring, his rule for managing a conflict with someone you love, and why secure attachment is contagious. Before Amir joins us, Rayna recaps her movers coming, Ashley has an unpopular food opinion to discuss, and we talk about how much your best friend should know about your sex life. Enjoy! Watch Dr. Amir Levine’s MasterClass The Science of Connection, get his books Attached and Secure, and visit his website for more. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for more. Thank you to our partners this week: Article: Get a beautiful new couch or bed at http://article.com. Rocket Money: Reach your financial goals faster at https://rocketmoney.com/gge. AG1: Get a free morning person hat and free AG1 flavor sampler in your welcome kit with your first subscription at https://drinkAG1.com/gge. FP Movement: Go to http://fpmovement.com/ to shop their full line of activewear and workout gear. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We can all become more secure. We can learn these little tricks, these little tools to really get us to a more secure place, to act in a more secure way. This podcast is a dear media production. Hi, guys. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Got to Eat. Welcome back. Birthday week.

This is my birthday week. How do you feel? I feel great. I did not have another Raina Paloosa in me. I was going to do it. And I really don't know why I thought I was going to be capable. of doing it because I moved this week. You've known you didn't want to do it for a minute.

Like you were talking about doing it before you knew when you were going to move. Yeah. Like I think your goal was originally to move more in May, which was also psychotic and delusional. How did I think I was going to be? I don't know, girl. And then you'd be like settled and have Raina Palooza in June. How did I think I was going to do that? I don't know.

I'm so underwater right now and we have nothing else going on besides our normal jobs. Well, the move. I think Raina Paloosa is every other year. You know, I like that. Yeah. Or every four years. Every five years. Yeah.

Like make them want it. Maybe I'll do it for 45 and then 50. Every four years like the Olympics. Yeah. For the World Cup. Either way. It's not a yearly adventure. It just can't be.

It's just. And Rocket Money, reach your financial goals faster at RocketMoney.com slash GGE. And thank you to AG1. Get a free morning person hat. Oh, I love this hat. I have it. It's great. And free AG1 flavor sampler in your welcome kit with your first subscription at drinkag1.com

slash GGE. And thank you to FPMovement. Go to FPMovement.com to shop their full line of activeware and workout gear. You guys, I said couch, sofa, or bed. And I meant couch dining table or bed. Okay. The couch and a sofa are the same thing. But you can go to article for literally,

everything. We'll talk about later. New couch sofa. Well, you know, get a couch sofa. That's arena exclusive. So my movers came yesterday. And it was a really interesting day. I have been wondering why. So like when we talked about it last week, I felt pensive. Okay. But I don't think it's like hit me. I think I've been like a little bit like suppressing how I feel. And it really doesn't hate you until the movers come. And I, my feeling is akin to how I felt when I left New York, which is that like this is going to be painful even though I know what I'm doing is right. I feel it in my soul and my bones and my body. I'm a New Yorker. I want to be back in New York. But like I feel like I'm also like more in love with LA than ever. And I don't need to like talk about this forever. You guys listened last week.

But it's just it's continued to reiterate to me that like even though something's hard and painful doesn't mean that it's the wrong decision. It just was really interesting seeing all these people pack my house up yesterday. And like that is the most important purchase I've ever made in my life. my heart into all the things I did do it and renovated. And I'm just like, this is not mine anymore. And it just, I got a lot of feelings about it. I was so proud of it. And to turn my back on it 18 months later, I changed my mind. And that's painful and it sucks. And it's, you know, a real, like, closing of a chapter. But I am like, elated over the moon, can't wait. But it's, you know, it's just a mix of emotions. And I think that like, it reminds me of breakups. And I got some,

like, really great messages from our listeners. And you guys were so wonderful about our episode last week and Ashley and I talking about both of our decisions to move or stay and Ashley and her husband's decision to move or stay and what we're going to do. And you guys really feel like our wins are your wins and our losses or your losses and it means so much. And I got so many messages today people saying like they reframed it our relationship to their romantic relationships and deciding whether to leave and feeling like just because you're leaving, things don't have to change. And I don't know, it just really stuck with me. These me all emotional. I never know like what's going to make me emotional.

I just, I think a lot of it is our audience, too. Like I woke up this morning and like, you know, I was just like, glance at the comments just to see something I missed. And it just was like overwhelmingly positive. And yeah, and like people just rooting for us and like this is my favorite type of episode because it's like you guys, your friendship and being open about it and stuff. So you guys are just, you're wonderful and you're so open with us. And I got a lot of messages about like feeling like you want to leave a relationship and

you're not sure. And like just because something hurts doesn't mean it's the wrong decision and all these things. And obviously really nice message about our friendship. And just being at this point in your life where you feel like the only single girl amongst your friends and what do I do. And I would never recommend somebody like completely shut the door to their entire community. I'm very lucky that you and I have a huge community of friends in both L.A. and New York and the decision can be easier for me. I'm not getting up and going somewhere where I don't know anybody. Right. Yeah. And this didn't come easily. You know, like I think there are a lot of decisions in life. It's like, fuck it. Like we said last week. but a lot of them take a lot of decision making and consideration and planning,

planning, logistics, like all of that. Money. Yeah, right. A lot of money that I can't forget back. I can't imagine what you must feel like because you bought that house. It was your first house you bought. And that's such a big deal. And I still haven't done that.

And I don't know what that feels like. I can relate to when I moved from New York and wasn't sure what the future would hold, but I was moving out of my apartment that meant so much to me that was my first expensive, nice apartment. And the day the movers came was the day it hit me. Like, seen him with all my stuff down the hallway. I was like, this is like gutting me for a lot of reasons. And I didn't even own that apartment.

It just meant so much to me. And we were leaving New York, even though we thought it wasn't really permanent. But just that alone, that like this was a huge milestone for you. You didn't just rent that house. I think it would hit different. I mean, I walk around the house. I'm camping out of the house now for the next week. I'm here.

There's nothing in it. bed and I have one stool in the kitchen. We'll put a photo up on the screen. But I just, I mean, I certainly walk around and see dollar signs, but I see all the little touches that were so important to me. Yeah. It's so weird when you like really think you want something. And you could be wrong. You could be wrong. So anyways, thank you guys for always being along on the journey of us and being so supportive and the messages about our friendship and how this hit home for you. And we just love you guys. You know, I'm here to reiterate that. But you had this funny moment where like all the movers were at my house

and I like hit me I like really had to take a shit and my God I have three bathrooms in my house like I should be able to pick one but they were just everywhere oh my God and I was just like I don't like there was a guy in my bedroom packing up the bedroom there was a guy in the guest bedroom and there was a guy in the kitchen

and that's where all my bathrooms are and so I was just like I don't know what to do so I drove to the studio to shit you can ever hear to shit oh my God and there was like a children's church choir going on here oh yeah and like there was just like there was a past and there was children and there was like a daycare and I had to like walk in through the daycare. This is so wholesome and I'm about to go blow it up in the public bathroom.

This kid walks in. He's like, Mommy, why does this smell in here? I was glad that they were so loud. I mean, that was the loudest choir. You try to make a bunch of noise when you're taking a shit. Yeah, but instead it was children being like, hallelujah. So there are people here during the day on the weekend. Right. I've never been here on a Sunday.

I just, I can't shit with four men in my house. Like you need them to respect you a little bit. That is so funny. You'd like tap a glass. Men, I'd like you to leave the premises for the next 15 to 20 minutes. Mama's got a shit. And then I had to text your brother. I've moved so much.

I moved to an Airbnb, then to a house, then to another house, then to another house. In the last four years, I've moved like four times. I text your brother once a year and ask him what to tip the movers because I really don't know. Like I texted your brother yesterday morning. I was like, hey, it's my yearly question. That is so funny. I don't know what to ask you. I always give him 100.

I gave everybody 100 and then I gave the guy who like the former guy gave him 140. Yeah. My brother, his moving company, Black Tie moving. You guys can check them out. They do moves everywhere. That's why I asked him. But I mean, I do ask Matt pretty much everything. Yeah.

Anything masculine. That's so true. Well, Shishonk and I've been talking about my car because I am going to sell the car. Shishonk is the car go-to. Immediately. It's the only thing I've ever solo texted Shishonk about. Like I'll look over him like Brittany's texting him. It's just so funny.

So Shishon's your car guy. Matt's your home guy. That's pretty much catch-all for everything else. Shishonk's tech, too. I don't text anybody about tech. Rob. Rob, yeah. I mean, Shishonk has replaced Rob in that way for me.

Tech-wise, he handles all my tech. I don't think I have a tech guy at the moment. I don't need any, I don't have any tech needs. But Rob would be. Yeah, but car Shishonk and I were debating whether I should sell my car, what would have cost to fix the car. He really banged it up since you've been here. Really, no.

Just two, like, Chonks said. It's always something. Two dangs. It's always the mirror. Every time Sean comes over, she's like, can you put that mirror back on? I had to get the mirror actually fixed. You know what we never talked about was when you talked about all those recalls, so many people in the comments were like, oh, you didn't know what it was like to have a Jeep.

I guess they're known for recalls. Yeah, all the people are like, oh, yeah, Raina, welcome to the world of Jeep ownership. Well, I thought jeeps were like the best. I've never had a problem with my Jeep. People did not echo you in the comments. There are a lot of recalls, but I've never had a, in three years. years, I've never had a single problem with the car. However, there's 11,000 miles on my car. Like, I'm not beating this car up. Yeah. I'm barely in it. Yeah. So anyways, I'm selling the car, I guess.

Okay. Oh, you are. So this week, I will move into my new place. We'll celebrate my birthday. And that's it. Then I will live in New York. But I feel like you and I are just going to be together continuously. Like, there's no time off. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. Like, I don't know. We would just been talking about it and what's kind of settled in, how our life is going to look. And I was like, well, Raina, you haven't really been around this year. You've been touring a lot. Like, socially, you know, like, no one ever thinks here in town. You know, like, I will certainly feel a void.

It is very sad for me. I want to be clear. But we have vacations planned and all this travel. So I'm like, when am I going to feel it like that? Like, when is my life going to feel different? It will, but I don't know when. I'm not looking forward to it. We're together continuously.

Yeah. You're going to be. We're having this conversation before you even move. So it is something's going to hit and it's going to be upset. setting. You need to validate that. I just was like, we are going to be together all the time. We're going to be in New York together and then we're going to go to Europe together and then we're going to go Dewey together and then I'll be in L.A., I'm sure. And then we're going to spend Labor Day together. I mean, we're going to get more time together. This is what made a plan.

This is what she did. She was like, you know what if I move away, I'll be able to get her on vacation more. We haven't spent that much time together since January since I've been going to now we're going to meeting after all the time. The minute we get back from Europe, we're going to go to Dewey. And then I'll be in L.A., probably, and then Labor Day. Okay. Well, great. Clock it.

Clock it. Okay, so Shoshan and I had this fun little day on Saturday. We just ran around, went to eat at this really great place. We went to go and they were walking down to Abakini. And we ended up having a drink at Owa, which is a great place in Abakini, sushi, drinks, such fun vibes. And I've always wanted to sit, like, there's a bar that faces the street. like these high stools, probably the most uncomfortable stools in Venice, I would say.

But, you know, whatever. Maybe the world. Maybe the world. They're so little. They're like trying to fit your butt on this. If you're like my brother, Rob couldn't sit in. I've seen Rob try to sit on it. Remember where he came to, oh, why?

He like stood the whole time. No, like Matt couldn't though. Fuck no. He would be like, I'm not, I guess I'm going to stand or we're going to go somewhere else. You know, like Matt has to assess the restaurant when he walks and see where he could actually physically fit. Whatever.

So, but we, I've never really sat on the street like that, like facing the street. And so we're sitting there having beers talking and Raina just pops up. Raina, my walk every day. I know, but like you did pop up like you had like our location. Like, how did you know we were there? What do you mean? I take the same walk seven days a week down the same street. And I saw this color blue

and it reminded me the blue from Levine's, Levine cookies packaging. And I was like, I must go get a Levine cookie. And so I, it's right next to OAS. It's the walk I do every day. Okay. So I'm going to jump in here and talk. about Levine. So first of all, it's Levin, but you can, I, I just know this because it's, I did a partnership with them years ago and it's French, but I accept LeVane, right? Like, it's fine. But if people are going to be in the comments, that's Levin. Graw, people. Either or works in this conversation. I wasn't correcting you. I like to say LeVane, but unfortunately, it's like Lecois. They gave me talking points and I had to say, right? I can't believe you

haven't asked about Shishon's review because that was his first Leven cookie. I was a little drunk when we left, Owa, and I forgot until right this. that we went there together. I forgot that I was like before you guys drive me home, can we go get cookies together? I was a little buzzed up too. You had like three glasses of rosé. Yeah, I was drunk. I went to bed at 9 p.m. Okay, we're going to talk about what happened, but I just feel like I have an unpopular opinion to share. Oh, I don't think this is going to be that unpopular. But tell me. What do you think it's going to be? I think you're going to tell me that it's just, it's too much cookie. Okay. It's not too much cookie. It's too much chocolate chip.

Okay. Did you guys get the chocolate chip cookie? Yeah, but it's not just them. It's so I love a Levan cookie. It's a top tier. I got to be clear. I love the Bristol Farms cookie here in LA. I think that's an incredible cookie. Beverly Hills cookie. Beverly Hills cookie. Yes. We have amazing chocolate chip cookies. My unpopular opinion is some of these cookies need less chocolate chips. I'm totally with you. They are so densely packed. Like what is the point of the cookie? I could just be eating chocolate chips or I could eat a Hershey's bar. Like what I, I love the cookie. dough. That's the compliment to the cookie. What are we doing? And every time I order a chocolate chip cookie from there, they correct. They go, you mean double chocolate chip? And I'm like, first of all, you know what I mean. And second of all, why are we doubling it up? So is that their standard chocolate chip cookie is a double chocolate chip cookie. See, what you got to do is get the chocolate chip walnut. Of course you do. Which is less. It is a little less. I always go towards a chocolate chip with walnut or I love a chocolate chip cookie with sea salt. I like a balanced ratio of cookie dough and chocolate.

I get their oatmeal raisin. We got the carrot cake and you probably were too drunk to remember. No, I remember this. The carrot cake is a sleeper hit. It has some white chocolate, I think, in it or macadamia. It's so bomb. They're fucking carrot cake cookie. Now you guys are probably turned on me.

But I just feel like some of these chocolate chip cookies. Is this really what people want? It's just chocolate chips. I need a ratio of dough. I'm trying to eat the cookie. I want the cookie. I don't want to be drowning in chocolate. I feel like it is just pouring down my throat.

So sometimes like if there's an opportunity when I go get a cookie to pick one, I pick one that looks less densely packed. This is not an unpopular opinion to me. Okay. And I can't wait to go after. I'm probably one right now. I think that these companies who thinks this is what people want, they must. I just think people really like chocolate.

And I just, I'm more of like a savory person. And to me, like, cookies are not a savory food, but they're not as sweet as chocolate. just eat chocolate then cookie dough is also sweet but I guess it has a little Also when you melt it it's more intense cookie dough I could eat with more chocolate chips because they're crunchy and I like that texture

But I do think a chocolate chip cookie with a little sea salt is that's my shit Yeah, hell yeah And so it's just I want Levin Levin to make a half chocolate chip Let's take double out of it Why are we doubling it? Half chocolate Who gave this?

feedback. I'm telling you, I'm curious. You guys have got to let us know in the comments. And again, if you're a real chocolate slut, which I really do think I was when I was younger, I could handle more sweet. Maybe I would want this. But now I just need a more balanced ratio. I'm with you. Okay. No feedback. Okay. So this very funny thing happened when you're at O-W. So this guy had asked me, it's not somebody I was on a date with. He's just somebody I florist sometimes. I don't know what I call. That's not somebody I'm ever going to date or I wasn't a date. initiative of your relationship. So I might flora sometimes.

Yeah. He asked me what I was doing. And earlier in the day and I said he wanted to get a coffee. There's no point in this conversation. I said, I might be on Abby Kinney later. I think people would want to know how we got here. Oh, okay. So he texted me and said, what are you doing today?

You want to get a coffee? And I said, no, I have to pack. And if you want to come down to Abby Kinney, I'll walk down to Abikinney. And he was like, maybe later. And I was like, a little fuck boy. And then I just forgot about it. Maybe later. Guys didn't say maybe to you.

Go on with your day. You don't have plans. Even friends. Okay. plan. He initiated the initial plan and they gave me a maybe. I was like, I will see my, I'll just do my day. Anyways, I had walked down to visit to visit you guys on Aberkini. And he texted me and said, like, what are you up to? I can meet you there now. And I was like, great, come down and meet us. So he came down to meet us. And we really had fun, the four of us. And we, but it was funny because

then Ray and I took the uncomfortable stools and they had stood on the street. So it was very funny. Like, it was like a meeting great. Like they had to stand in the window on the street and we were sitting inside. That's very funny for us to be in the restaurant. on the street. Well, I started off on the street and it's elevated up into the restaurant and you guys were so tall. So I was really down there. The men can stand on the street. We're going to take the seats. But as we got drunker, they got flirty-your-and. I remember why we started talking about slipping with each other, probably just because it's fun to talk about. I figure what he asked to open the conversation, but you just started talking about what I like in bed and like oral and different sex positions.

And if you could pick two sex positions, like which two would you pick? And you just started like jumping in and telling him, like, what I like with, like, precisional accuracy. I don't think I could, it was, it was, it was the rosé looking back. Like, I was on one. Like, I don't know if I could replicate that today. But yeah, I just did, like, a whole monologue. You were just like, she likes watching people jerk off.

And you could jerk off. He was like, do you like to be blow jobs? And the cum talk. And then I was like, I like when people go down. I mean, you're like, you haven't been liking that. And I was like, lately, I've been liking it. And you were like, you guys, she's 69. And then we were like, it's type too fun for her.

She just likes the thing about it later. And then you were like, you should see her butthole. It's so nice. Like, it is a world-class butthole. Like when I got home, I was letting in bed just sporadically laughing about this. I laughed about this for days. But, like, I was wondering if, like, I mean, you and I just talk about this every week and what I like and have talked about this for a decade.

But, like, I wonder if other girls could do this with their girlfriends. Like, it wasn't even weird. Like, your husband was there, this guy that I'm with is there. The four of us are just going back and forth. Like, actually, Shishank, I don't think, participated. He was like, I'm going to let them cook. It's fucking crazy people. He really was just like, where am I?

Yeah, he was like, I'm going to be watching sports on my phone. But like, I wonder if other people could do this with their friends, like with such precision. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people could do this about you. Rana, like, I don't know if my knowledge of your sex life comes from our private conversations or this podcast or both. Like, you and I don't sit around that much and talk about what you like in bed.

It's been on a mic. A lot of it's happened in a live show. I don't know. I can't decide. I guess I have a few extra tidbits from private conversations, but most of it's public knowledge. You don't think this is a two people that have a podcast thing. You just think it's a me thing. No.

I feel like the comments you're going to be every person is going to be like, yeah, I know what Raina likes a bed. No, I think people know what I like too. But you think me more so than other people? Yes, a little more. Maybe. But we both, I think people know what I like too. Like I could do this with you.

for sure. Maybe not with as much precision. I think I get more disgusting. I think that I just have a lot of exposure to what you like in bed. I think, but I think someone who's listened to every episode and just come to a few live shows also does. And I think they could have done that same thing if they have a good recall.

I'm really graphic. I mean, you were just open. Yeah. You know, I just, I wondered if people can do this with their girlfriends. Let us,

let us know if you guys could all, you guys all feel like. You could sub out for Ashley and have this conversation with anybody. I, it feels less of a friendship and more of can you name your favorite podcasters, sex preferences, because I don't know that I can do this for another friend. I don't know if that's because of the closeness, just of our relationship. I know. I mean, I've been talking with Corey about sex for our whole friendship.

And we've been friends since we, like, lost our virginity. Even friends with we were four years old. So I think I could do a pretty good job. And I know what her and her husband are into. and he knows I know these things about him. We've sent them sex toys and all kinds of stuff, but certainly not like I could do with you. I mean, it's like your sex life is part of my job.

Also, I feel like a lot of stuff is on the menu for me. Like, I'm just open to a lot of. Like, I have like one, like, best friend and she's a very sexual person. She has a lot of sex, but she doesn't like to dirty talk. She doesn't masturbate. She doesn't want to go down on guys. Like, I know all this stuff she doesn't like, but I'm not like there's all this stuff on the menu for you.

Yeah. Like, I'll put a lot of stuff on the menu. There's a lot to talk about. Yeah. like Ashley was like she likes to watch guys jerk off and she like stop I he like nailed it I was like man that was solid I mean thank God he's a comedian because otherwise like a normal person I don't know if they could have handled that you think just like a normal dude would like like no even your husband didn't want to participate the normal dude and the group didn't enjoy it normal person with a normal

job yeah or they would have like taken it to judge you or like kind of put put in a box. I don't know what sort I'm looking for. I don't look at you differently. I think that to put you in this like really slutty box. I mean, I've definitely had people that I've gone on dates with like learn that we own a sex toy company or learn that like we talk about sex on the show and they do see me through this lens of like this girl's going to fuck me and do anything. And it's like I'm allowed to say this stuff. Yeah. Ashley's allowed to say this stuff. You don't get to say this stuff. Right. And we're comedians. Yeah. You know, we're like mentally. We're performing right now.

there was a moment where I was like, what are we doing here? This is the live podcast on site at OWA. You're welcome. I know. People get to sit around us sometimes at airports. The servers, we're like, what is going on over here? All right, guys, well, let us know if you could describe. You know what?

I just think people are going to be like, no, I could tell you so much more what Raina likes than my best friend. I'm dying to know. I think that's probably true. I also think that when people are in very serious relationships, they don't talk about that stuff as much. I am not talking to even my close. friends about their serious partners sex lives. And if I do, it's because they're talking to me more

as like a therapist because you and I do this so much. It's like I think our friends come to us with like, I'm having a real problem. Not like, I don't really want to know about like my friends, serious partners, dicks. And I mean, I'll, I'll listen. But it is interesting. It's like I always think about this. Is it age and growing up or is it the level of commitment? Like are you talking more graphically about your long-term boyfriends and your sex life in your 20s or your early 30s, as opposed to your husband and your 40s. And it's not even really like, it's husband, I guess, but more long-term relationship. Like, is it that we outgrow some of that? Or is it because our relationships are more serious or their marriages? And it's not, I don't know, I want to say

sad. It's like you miss it, you know? And I do love when you get going with your best friend. who may or may not be married or in long-term relationships or whatever it may be and everybody's sharing and not too much. You know, they're not oversharing and they're certainly not going to say anything that makes their husband or their long-term partner look bad. But like you miss it sometimes. Like those are fun conversations to have. And like sometimes when they happen, this age, you're like, God, this is all we used to do.

I think that people in serious have had less sex. They have less crazier sex. Yes. Crazy stories, yes. I think that life gets in the way and stress and kids and jobs and money. And I think you just, there are less stories. stories in general. That's totally true. I think when a friend starts to talk to us about their serious relationships, because they're not having sex. Yeah, and you're totally right. Like,

you've been married for 10 years. Like, I don't know. What would Corey say at you guys last night? You know, we do know some things and like her and Ham of a great sex life. But like, you know, they have a bunch of kids and I love that they're still doing it. But it's like, she's not going to come to me unless it was crazy. And that's 10 years later, what would it even be? Like, where did he put it? I broke his dick. Right. Like, what is? I'm hanging from the ceiling. What's left? I feel like you get older and the conversations turn to like grievances and like we're not having enough sex or you can't get like all these different things.

So I don't know. It's just like to the younger ladies listening like those moments that you're having, even if you're like, God, we're all just like single and don't want to be and running around and sleeping with whoever. But you're going to those happy hours and you're sharing all these stories. Like just know that this won't be like this forever. And it goes back to like our conversation with Tune Day and just know that you're really doing it. and like appreciate those moments and cherish them because you're not going to do that when you're all married. Yeah.

It's a good times. It's a good reminder. Sometimes you do. I miss that stuff sometimes. And then in your 40s, if you're still doing that, I mean, you're the only person left to entertain anybody.

Well, it's like it's sex in the city. You know, and I think that was like a pretty realistic depiction. You know, like you had Samantha who was telling everybody everything because she was single and sleeping around in the best way. And then Charlotte,

who's like, these are the problems. I need to talk about with my girlfriends, with both my husbands. And then Miranda, Steve's one ball. I'm pregnant, whatever. And then Carrie and all her toxic bullshit. Like, I feel like that's a really realistic depiction of women 30s, 40s. Yes, for sure.

All right. Well, if you are just like drunk slots, running around, enjoy it. Carrying the friend group on your back, like Samantha. My going away party here is me and three couples. And you guys are so lucky. Yeah, you've heard the story. Actually, I already texted the group. I fucked the bartender.

Raina. I like forgot. So if you, I'm not going to, I would say arguably one of your best bits in your, in your hour. It's the best bit ever. And the physical comedy of it all that I've done, yeah. Is this guy who I forgot is the bartender at the restaurant. And that's where you chose to go. Yeah.

It felt chaotic in a fun way. That's the perfect send off. I wouldn't want to have your goodbye dinner at a place where you hadn't fuck somebody. So I thought about like where do I want to go. And I thought like Kobe's, you and I and Taylor had like really. wonderful cozy dinners. I'm just laughing. Like that's the requirement.

You're like, what places have I fuck the bartender? Where has someone that works here of tea bag me? Okay. Here's our options. So I was like running through the list and I was like

Kobe's in Santa Monica. So wonderful. Enrique Alibera just opened up a new restaurant in Venice and Epicinney. Nope. Haven't fucked anyone that works there. Literally. Opie's there.

Also the other night we were at a bar and like I was also kind of drunk. And Shishang told me that one of our friends' exes was inside the bar with a date. And I just go, I'm about to go be chaotic and just walked into the bar. Shishang just doesn't like, I don't even know. Do you think he reveled in that moment? He went and got drinks.

He was gone for a while. The bar was getting kind of crowded to come back with that news. Like, I would have been sprinting. I would have sprinted back from the bar slashing margaritas. You'll never believe it was there. And he was just like, anyway. So so is at the bar. We're like, oh, okay.

Everybody gets up immediately. I was like, I'm going to cause some chaos. It just like ran into the bar. It was so fun for me. I know. I drank a lot this week. Yeah, it was more than usual. And I was feeling a little sluggish this morning.

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about furniture than right now. So article can't recommend it enough. I absolutely love what they have. They make it effortless to create stylish long lasting homes at an unbeatable price. So if you go on the article's website, you'll see tons of different styles. So my style at my house in Venice has always been really like coastal and boho. But in New York, I want to make it just like a little more edgy. more colors. So they offer mid-century modern. They do Scandy-inspired pieces. But like everything is curated really beautifully. If you're like, I have no idea how to curate a space, just go on their website and look. Obviously, people are looking for outdoor furniture at this time of year. They have furniture that is just second to none. They have patio furniture. They have great tables

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Ashley and I had a work of companies of great support. They support seven days a week and they have a 30-day satisfaction guarantee. So if you were in the market for a beautiful new sofa, dining table or bed or elder furniture, head to article.com. Okay, let's get into it. Okay, guys, we are very excited to welcome our guest today. He is a psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and co-author of the bestselling book Attached, which transformed the way people think about relationships and attachment styles.

As an associate professor of psychiatry at Columbia University, he has become one of the leading voices on the science of human connection. His new book, Secure, the Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure, is out now as well as his masterclass, the science of connection, rewire relationships to last with attachment theory. Please welcome to the show, Dr. Amir Levine. Hey, I'm glad to be here. We are really glad to have you. So we were just chatting with you a little bit before we started recording about how

incredible and widespread. I mean, your book is just, it's this number one book attached. obviously secure will be the same, but it's been out for a month. In the zeitgeist, in any relationship expert podcast, this whole entire world, did you ever, did you think that when you were writing it where you were like, I got a real banger on my hands or have you been surprised at them? I mean, definitely not. We used to have like this.

I wrote it with my best friend from high school. And we had this running joke that it's only going to sell one copy to the lobby of Congress because we just never really imagined that he would get to where it got. No, ever. Okay. Wow. You really are, I mean, attachment theory isn't new, but romantic attachment theory. You really are like the father of this concept.

So that's exactly when I came across that, that's exactly what I felt because it has been around actually since the late 80s. Actually, the first paper about adult attachment was published in 1987. but he was really buried in academic lingo, these adult attachment styles. And I came across it by chance because I was working with mothers and kids and we were doing secure therapy for their mothers, like there were trauma survivors

and we were working with them. And I knew about attachment styles in kids because I'm also a child psychiatrist. But I love their work so much that I did something you never do in any of those rotations as a resident. You're on call. You never have any time.

But I read, they always gave you this suggestion. reading list and I read everything on the suggested reading list and that's where I came across these adult attachment styles and at the time I was going through a breakup it was so painful I think probably the most painful breakup of my life and all of a sudden it explained so many things it's like I went from seeing relationships in black and white to seeing relationships in color and it explained so many things to me that I knew that this is just like it felt like an epiphany So basically what I did, I took all those concepts that were buried in academic lingo, and I translated them to something that people can use in everyday life.

Well, it's amazing and it's really important start working. I have to tell you, it's funny. My mom's a psychologist. And many years ago, I said to her, this guy invented attachment theory. So I actually thought that you were the father of the whole concept. No, you know who did the kids? No, it's a John Balby actually that invented it. But there is something to be said about translating it, too, because it could say.

He could have stayed. And to tell you the truth, when the book came out, and I said, I really want to write about this because it's so helpful. And also my friend, we were a friend from high school. It's like, oh, my, we had this in our 20s. It would have been so helpful to understand that. And so there's really something to be said about also taking that academic lingo and then making it into something that people can actually use. Digest. I mean, the book that changed my life in my 20s was he's just not that into you.

That's all we had. mean so it's just like wish we would have had this we could have looked at it so differently. I know exactly because you know something. It's just like it sounds like he's not that into you and it was so popular because sometimes people do behave in a way where and we can talk about that. That's kind of like what avoidance do. Like they oh no, I can't meet tomorrow and then they're talking well he's just not that into you. But then they give you other messages too. So if only we're that simple, he's not just that into you. I would. we should were that simple, but that's why we're the attachment sample. It really gives you more depth

into understanding what's going on. So we want to talk to you about your new book and the master class, but maybe we start really quickly by just explaining if somebody lives under Iraq, what attachment theory is and what the romantic attachment styles are. Right. So attachment theory was actually indicted by John Bolby, who basically said that attachment is a basic need, just like food and water. We need to attach to other people. And before that, the Freudian thought was that we attached to others, like the infant attaches to the mother because she gives him sustenance and she takes care of him and that's why. But Bobby said, no, no, no. It really is a basic need.

And he saw that because it was during World War II and the kids were separated from their families and they failed to thrive. But Bobby also said that we attached, our attachment needs, like start when we're born and end to the last of our days. And that's when later on in the 80s, they saw that also it actually functions as an important part in romantic relationships too. And before we even go to the attachment styles, I have to say it. So people really have to understand what it means. Basic need is a basic need. And people oftentimes feel so bad that they really want to find someone. And without it, their life feels incomplete.

And people say, well, but you have to learn to love yourself first. or you have to, like, all of these, like, you need to learn to be alone and things like that. But if it's a basic need, you can't say that. Imagine if I were to tell you Raina or Ashley, oh, it's like you have to learn to go without food or without water and be fine with it. So if we understand that it's a basic need, we can't have it both way. You can't tell us, oh, you have to learn to be alone. I'm sorry, it's a basic need. It's something that we need.

Yeah, humans be connection, for sure. Right. And when you say that, do you mean connection in love? in general from family, friends, or do you feel like romantic love is a basic need? I think all of the above, and that's where we get into the attachment styles, that we don't all need the same thing. We need different things, and that's where the attachment styles come in. Like people who have anxious attachment styles, they want a lot of closeness, but they also

need a lot of reassurance because if they have very sense, and we can talk about that, they can insecure, you'll see, it's actually in a way of superpower. a lot of things that other people can't see and they can identify things that other people can't identify. And so they need to feel safe and they need the environment to be safe. And they want a lot

of closeness. But people who are avoidant they also want to be attached to others and be close to others. But there's a caveat there. They don't feel comfortable with too much closeness. And when there's too much closeness, they start to feel like, no, it doesn't feel good to me.

Stay away a little bit. And they have we call it de-activating strategies, different ways in which you can like keep some distance, create the measure of distance from the other person. And people who are secure, they are blood type O. They like closeness a lot. And like you, they'll give you as much closeness as you want. But even if you create distance with them, they don't really care that much. Whereas the anxious, we're like, oh, my God, this is this.

This is the end of their relationship. I know it's the beginning of the end. they probably wouldn't even notice. So let's say as someone secure, you want to hold their hands all the time. They hold your hands all the time. It's not a problem. You want to walk a few steps ahead of them

and then walking behind you, that's fine for them too. They're not going to take it to heart. So they get along, they're very easy to get along with. So these are the three main attachment styles. And then there's fearful avoidance, which is a combination of anxious and avoid it.

Like one hand, stay away, one hand. come close. And these aren't fixed for everybody, right? You can kind of vacillate between these, depending on who your partner is and which stage of life you're in. So that's like a key question because like in attached,

we treat it more as categories. It's more like, okay, that's how you are. But the research since then has shown that that's not so actually. It's so much more nuanced. And actually I find interesting and hopeful. It's really more in a spectrum. And we can have different

attachment styles with different people. There's a new quiz and secure about your attachment style and even also on my website and I put a whole drop-down menu of you can figure out your and you get a map with the different people in your life and your attachment style with them. Like you can even have it with your partner, even a coworker, your boss, your siblings, your children. And then you really get a clue and you see how it really can change between different people. I even put your pet there.

I heard a little bark there, so I have a dog too. And you can have different attachment styles or different, even with your pets. That's so funny. I mean, dogs are funny. They're so obvious. I feel like, like, avoided dogs versus anxious, needy, cuddly. Wait, don't you mean how you attach to your dog, not how dog? I'm talking about the dog.

I always want to be on the dog. You always want to be on the dog. I'm saying the dog. I feel like it's so obvious if they're avoided or anxious. Completely. Yes. I think about like my romantic. life. I think about my childhood and I was really conditioned that like love was given sort of

by one parent intermittently and I had to work really hard for it. I didn't know when I was going to get like acceptance and kindness and things like that. But as an adult, it's manifested. Like there's some people I've been with that would describe me as pretty avoidant and there's other people I've dated that would be like she's extremely anxious to the point that it's like annoying. And other people I've had really secure, wonderful relationships with. So for me, it is kind of partner dependent and with friends as well. Yeah. People can bring out different things. in you. That's why I really like actually the like secure and also in the master class, I talk about secure priming therapy. And that's kind of like what happened in the past 15 years.

And that's why I haven't really talked so much on podcasts and stuff because I was really basically trying to figure it out in how to help people become more secure because life is so much easier when you're more secure. You're just like there's less relationship strife. And so like what we do is when you do that, I call it a attachment. on topography, you look at your life as a whole, you get a map of who are the people in your life, and you see who brings out your secure potential. And the idea is that we all have a secure potential within us, and people, pets, different interactions in our life can bring it out. And in secure priming therapy, we learn to give primacy to those people because they will help

even the more secure interactions you have. Even the small ones really will actually change your brain towards greater secure attachment. Well, I really want to get into secure, but I do want to ask you a question before we kind of move on to your new work, which is in the last 15 years, I'm just curious what you think. Do you think we've become more anxious in dating because there's such a prevalence of breadcrumbing and ghosting and bad behavior that's being talked about and the TikTokification of bad behavior and discussing, you should do this? I mean, how do you feel that this is like affected society in dating? Some of it is also a matter of luck. Like, oh, actually, I can tell you, I'm going to tell you this story, her story, and I think she wouldn't mind.

Like, my niece, she never, like, until her really early 20s, I think maybe she was 19 or 20. She never dated ever, and she came to visit me in New York with her friend. And she was like, oh, let's, like, have fun. And she never even had a dating profile in there. I think they started Tinder, like each, for each other, each was doing the others profile. And then there's this guy that, uh, She liked for her and he liked her. And she's like, oh, look at this guy.

And he's like, oh, he's kind of cute. Let me check him out. And fast forward, she went. She met him. They really hit it off. And now I think they've been married for like, how long have they been married? Like six, seven years? I'm like, I hate these stories.

I hate her first boyfriend. First Tinder swipe. We hear it a lot, though. It does happen. We have a friend that's married to somebody that met one on one date from a dating app and she's married to him now. Yeah. You see? I mean, it does happen. So some people are lucky. And then sometimes it takes more effort and it can be really, really painful. And that's the sort of love bombing and all these terms, I think. It just really tells you how painful it can be that sometimes people can go all in. And all of a sudden, they get called feet or they change their mind or something happens. And I think it's just part of the process, whether social media and dating apps have,

exacerbated it? Maybe. I mean, it could be. But I think hopefully we can talk about a few tools that people can use to try to circumvent that and to really cut to the chase and know what to look for. How to navigate this whole dating terrain from a more secure stance. Okay. Let's do it. Okay. So let's talk about secure. And why this now? Why this book now? The focus of the book. So it took me many, many years to really come up within a framework. of how people can become more secure. Because when a task came out, it was justically, remember,

it was in academic lingo. It wasn't even part of any clinical thing that I've learned in my psychiatry residency. There was no treatment to help people become more secure. But then people started coming to me to therapy. And like, okay, we want to become more secure. Help us become. And I didn't have an immediate answer to that.

But then I'm also a brain, I'm also a neuroscientist. I do like really molecular experiments in the lab, learning brain science. And I found myself in treatment really thinking more and more about how our social brain functions and what it needs and what it actually hates and integrating that into the treatment to help people become more secure. So one of the things their brain really hates, like a lot, is being excluded and being ignored.

It's built into us in a very, like very primitive way because I think one of the things to understand is their attachment is really about safety. It's how we feel safe in the world. When we ignored, our emotional brain doesn't respond to the here and now that, oh, look, I don't know, you're sitting in a studio, in your home, and you're safe. There's no predators around. But that wasn't the case when our emotional brain was formed. And the emotional brain was formed. Like being ignored meant life-threatening, was a life-threatening condition because you get picked off and turn into prey.

And so our brain really hates that. And they have really all these research, and I call it in Secure, the Cyberball effect. It's based on this experiment when you play a game of catch with two other people, and all of a sudden they stop throwing the ball in your direction. And like areas of like pain and distress light up in the brain. And we can't really mitigate it. Even if I give you money, I tell you these other two people are like horrible people. It doesn't matter.

Our brain doesn't care who the other person is. It doesn't care if you give them money. It's still like really will react with huge distress. So then if you understand that and you want to keep the social brain happy, how do you do it? That's where I came up with these five pillars for a secure life. It's like this weird acronym that I called carp. It's not the fish. It stands for consistent, available, responsive, reliable, and predictable.

So you want to learn to be consistent, available, responsive, reliable, and predictable. And you want to also teach others and everyone. range in your life that others in your life give primacy to others that are also consistent, available, and responsible. And it calls a lot of people to order. And you can do it in different ways. It's not like, oh, it means that you have to always answer within a matter of a second someone's text. But you need to do it in a way that actually the other person will experience you is reliable and predictable. So you feel like when you talk about this like secure attachment. You talk about working on yourself first, not working on like getting your partner to be

better. Don't get me wrong. I'm talking about the whole thing. I'm talking about yourself and I'm talking about also what your expectations of others should be and how to also really look at that map that you create when you create that attachment and you look who are the people in your life and who the people that are secure are people who are usually carp. They always show up to us. They're solid. And that's why oftentimes we give them the least attention in our life because they're boring. They're very solid. They're just always there. You're not going to call your friend and say, oh, my God, this person did this and that to me or not. Because they never do only of those things to you. They make bad reality TV stars. But I want to talk about that boring because you can reduce this down to being secure as boring.

So where do you stand on that? But that's a huge part of secure priming therapy. And that's actually a process that I went through on myself in my whole journey. in the process of writing attached and then even more so secure, I've fallen in love with the secures of this world. And people who I always, I used to disregard and not even appreciate, I see them from a completely different perspective because once you understand what it does through your brain and how not just your brain and your body too,

being more secure, we now know, affects much more than just how happy you're going to be in your romantic relationships. It even affects how we shop. like people who are secure don't care as much about brand names and stuff. It affects when we look for a job. It affects our health. They had this one study that showed that people with fibromyalgia when you were secure,

they actually got along better with their care health provider, but also they reported less pain and they were able to manage their illness better over time. So the benefits of being secure really goes way beyond just like how happy we're going to be in our romantic relationships. And so I've come to really appreciate the important role that these people play in my life. And I also have come to really see the insecure interactions in a much different light. I see it more as a preoccupation rather than something that I need to fix this. And the good moments are not that good to me anymore because I understand that it comes with a price. Okay.

I have a couple questions. one, do you have tips and tricks? And of course, we know the book, but for people who ever read the book or plan on it, two, become more secure in all of these things. And my other question is, I'm stuck on the predictable a little bit because I feel like we have a negative connotation with predictable. I can lean into all of the others. And I'm married to like the most secure man alive, the consistency, availability, responsiveness,

reliability, and then predictable, because I think typically romantically, you're like, I like a little surprise and thrill. And I think predictability, I was surprised that that's on the list. Yeah, but when I think about you, I think about like, if I need something, if I need something really is bad in my life, that's reliable. Yeah, but I can predict what you will do. You will drop everything. You will show up.

So I'm so glad you brought this up because actually I have a section in the chapter. I think it's chapter three. No, it's chapter two where I actually say a word about predictable because I know that I want you to explain it. Yeah. So when I mean predictable, I mean it from an attachment perspective. Okay. From an attachment perspective, what predictable means is that there's no like ghosting surprises.

Yes. And you don't just drop on the face of the earth all of a sudden. It doesn't mean that they can throw you a surprise birthday party. I don't know. You see on TikTok when they take the, I don't know if I would like that, but maybe. Like when, you know, you go on the plane, you don't know your destination, your vacation destination. I wonder if it's like, you know, you know, you know. some people you just you don't know what you're going to get when you walk into a room with them.

And like when you have an experience, a social experience or a met experience, like, I don't know what I'm going to get day to day. And it's worse than being like unreliable to me because it's like sometimes they are and sometimes they're not. I want somebody whose behavior I can predict. The way that I see it is reliable. They're there. You know that they're going to be there for you. But predictable is that you know that they're always going to be there for you. If they can't, if they like, unless they're really like something horrible has happened and they can show up for you. I just wanted to dive. into it a little bit because I actually don't think

unpredictable is positive. I wouldn't describe my best friends or my husband that way either. It's just kind of like I wanted to just make the note that like someone would be predictable in a good way and they still can't I want predictable. Like thrill you and surprise you and you know. No, no. In the

whole contest of the car because I can also I think I even wrote in the book that I have a friend who predictably never picks up the check like where there's like when it comes up. Oh. So you pick a cheap place for dinner with that person. I like what you said, like always.

It's like, yes, they'll do this, but always they'll do this. And that refra- It doesn't sound boring to me at all. I like that. That gives our social brain such reassurance because, remember, again, it's about safety. And we drive, we derive our safety from knowing that the people around us are going to be there for us. Because people think, oh, if I have a lot of money in the bank, if I have an expensive car, like a condo, that's going to make me feel safe and secure. But these things don't make us feel safe at all because these things didn't even exist

when our emotional brain form. Right. So it just doesn't work that way. It's really through our connections with others. And surprisingly, it's through all these little things. It's not that people think, oh, the big things that would really matter. But actually our brain attachment is like a surveillance.

It doesn't really look for the big things. It actually surveys all the time for the availability of the other person. It's almost like there's a thing. thread between you and the person that you're attached to and you can sort of tug it and you know where they are on the other side. But all of a sudden, if it's been snapped and you don't feel the other person on the other side, you feel very unsettled. That's actually like a line from Margo's got money problem. She actually describes that at a certain point, the other,

the guy, I don't want to spoil too much, but the guy doesn't respond to her anymore. And she felt, she describes, she said it's almost like there's a thread between us and it's been snapped away and it's this horrifying sensation. She's such a good description of an activated attachment. Okay, just going to take a quick break. I am telling you guys about FP movement. Oh my God, the best stuff for summer. Oh my gosh. The sets, of course. But I really want to talk about the shorts and some of the tanks today. Shorts can be tough. You know, like, I think there's sometimes are not flattering and you want to wear shorts as the weather gets warmer. And so, We really love everything that they do.

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Join at RocketMoney.com slash GGE. That's rocketmoney.com slash GGE. RocketMoney.com slash GGE. Well, we are going to get back to like what makes an avoiding person become more secure and an anxious person become more secure. But can we talk about these? You call them seemingly insignificant minor interactions? So these are the most important thing.

It's not about, like, so here's the, here's a common scenario that happens when people don't know about carp, see-me's. You said see-me, and it's seemingly insignificant minor interaction. That's the acronym. Right. There's only two acronyons in the book. That's it. Yes, the carp and the seamy. Knowing about carp-seemies really changes the whole picture.

Like a couple who've been sort of, like, been dating for just, like, newly dating, or even, like, dating long-term, they go, they spend the whole weekend together. They have an amazing time. They go to an expensive. They go to a show. They have dinner. Like the next day, they go shopping together. He even buys her like an expensive purse or a bag. And then because he's more avoidant, come Monday, he forgets the text her in the morning.

He usually always texts her every morning. She is like, oh my God, being more anxious. This is it. I know what it's like. We were too close. And now they're pulling away. It's the beginning of the end. Because remember, I told you, anxious are very sensitive to potential

danger in a relationship and they really feel that relationships can be very fragile. So they're like, oh, I don't know. What should I do? Like, no, if I'll text now, let's be, I'm even more needy. Then I'll just, like, I'm going to wait for him. And they're like sitting all day, like very anxious. Can't even think about their work. Like, come evening, let's say they, like he calls her or he texts her.

She either doesn't respond because she's upset or when she answered the phone, she's very cold. And he's like, hey, what's happening? And like, oh, like, no, you didn't text me in the morning. So him being avoided and he thinks, this is crazy. I mean, we just spent this whole weekend together. We were so close. How much more that she needs?

There's no end to how much this person needs. She's so needy. I don't know if that's going to work. All the while, not understanding the importance of, like, for our attachment system, of this sort of forming this baseline, you don't get credit forward of closeness, which avoidance thinks that you do. It doesn't work that way because it's a waiter system. So it's like if you tripped a switch, you tripped a switch, it's an on and off, and then that's going to be hard.

So if you know that, and you can teach avoidance to be, okay, if you have a certain baseline and you text every morning, sometimes even especially after you had a very close weekend, you need to text that morning. And then if you don't, you're going to get a backlash. And that's exactly what you don't want. But they kind of like reaffirm each other's beliefs in the most ridiculous way, where it all could have been circumvented very easily if they were just like, let's say he forgot. And she was like, oh, you know, you didn't text me. And he was like, you know what?

I'm really, no, I wasn't carp. I'm sorry. I wasn't car. Even I have it with my friend. I have this friend. We've been friends for more than 20 years. And at times it wasn't an easy friendship even like for about a year and a half. We didn't speak.

And I think a few weeks ago, he called me once and I forgot to return the call. And then he texted me. And I was so busy with the launch of the book and everything. And I didn't really get back to him. But then we talked again. And he said, well, you've been off your carp game. And I knew exactly what he was talking about. And I said, yes, you're right.

I'm so sorry. There's been so much going on. But you'll see, I'm going to make it up. I'm going to make it up to you now by being extra available. And in the past, I would have become defensive. You probably would have sulked and not said anything. Or would have said, you've heard my feelings. But here we had a very specific language.

He didn't say, you heard my feelings. It's like, you weren't carp, and I felt it. And we didn't even have to say anything. I know what he does, how he can jolt the attachment system. And I immediately apologize and corrected my ways. It saved us so much energy and so much time. It's funny. That story you told about the couple.

I feel that in my soul. I feel like everybody's had that experience where like the avoiding person's like, we had a great time. I don't know what the problem is here. And the anxious person has told themselves a story the entire day and worked themselves up into this like tizzy. And by the time it comes out, the other person's like, yikes, I can't be with you. Yeah.

And both of those people have a little work to do. So it's like if both understand the logic of attack, there's a certain logic of attachment that runs through all of our relationships. And it's a very simple logic, but a lot of it is pre-language because attachment forms before we can even speak. And that's why I really wanted to give the specific tools that people understand more specifically

what is happening to our emotional brain because people go, if you heard my feelings, and they start going, they don't know to describe more exactly what's going on and what they need. But once you learn that, you can really circumvent

there's so much relationship strife by really adjudicate. addressing specifically what the social brain needs. In that example, because I really want to just, like, wrap that up because I think that's really typical for a lot of people. You have an avoidant and anxious. And if one of those people just would have been secure, this interaction probably wouldn't have happened.

They wouldn't have been clocked in that way. So when you have an anxious and an avoidant, is there a hope for them? Because how can a person just say, I need you to be carp? And then the avoidance, like, what do you mean? I'm glad that you pointed it up because you were even highlighting it. I think it's such a good question because what can people do? Both are at full, right? Like the fact that he didn't text that morning,

it's because he needed a little bit more. It goes a lot for him that weekend. Yeah. And he needed a little like, so they're not even completely, they're not even aware that they're doing it. And I think I gave an example in the book. It's like, oh, I go back and I start working and I'm busy and what I'm doing. And then all of a time, getting like, people are hitting up my phone.

Or if I reach out to someone, they're like upset with you. with me that I didn't like respond before that I like I dropped the ball on them. It's not just with romantic partner. It happens to them also with friends in the class on master class and also insecure. I talk about the three pitfalls of people with avoid an attachment style that they're often falling to. And that's one of the pitfalls that I just described. It's not learning, not respecting I give it a very sort of because I'm a science geek. I give it a geeky name. Not learning to respect the attachment homeostasis. But what amoeostasis is basically baseline.

So you teach avoidance that there's an attachment baseline and that if you're going to disrupt that baseline, you're going to pay because what's going to happen is you're going to activate the other person and now they're going to cling to you even more. And that's exactly the opposite of what you want. So you learn how to give the other person what they need, more like the attachment that forms between you

what they need. So they'll leave you alone. So it's not like, oh, you have to be more, I sell it to avoidant in secure farming therapy. It's like, this is for you. This is not for you to be so nice to the other person. This is a way for you to be nice to you. Because if you do this little seemy thing,

this seemingly insignificant minor interaction of a tiny little text, you bought yourself your whole day that they're not going to be thinking about you at all. Is it sort of like with avoidant people, do you have to train them to explain to other people in their lives? like I just need a little more distance sometimes. I mean, definitely.

I haven't had to do that with romantic partners necessarily, but with friends of mine, especially when she and I get really busy with work, I am not that responsive via text. And I think it can really tug on people's anxious attachment. My friends being like, are you mad at me? I'm checking in with you.

I'm saying, how is your show? You triggered their attachment style. Yes. And I've had to over the years send quite a few text messages to just say like, I promise I'm not mad at you. This is a me thing.

So do you teach people to do that? Of course, that's exactly what you teach people to actually, so you can even become preemptively more things. Like, hey, the sooner you reply, the better, right? Hey, I'm so busy. You can even prepare for avoidance. You can prepare like a little automatic text that you can send to people. They don't have to start going into all the texting. I'm so busy this next two weeks.

There's so much going on. Miss you. Reach out as soon as it's over. And if I don't reach out, reach out again. I'm so happy to hear from you. something like that. That's it. Done. And I think when you have a history with people, they understand. I mean, consistency and reliability. It's like my friends that have been friends with me for years and the same with

Raina know that like there's times in my life when I'm less responsive and they give me that grace because they know that it will ebb and flow because of our life. I mean, I think you can't be the exact same consistency, reliability, responsiveness to every single person in your life all the time. And people that have the history, they understand that and they give you that grace. Exactly. So you can build up your carp credit. That you can build up because then people do learn that you actually mean well and that you want to be there. It's more about this idea of like really feeling that that thing is not, that he's been snapped away. And all that. Yes. Yes. So you want to keep that thread, that feeling that they're there for them. Does somebody who is avoidant, do they want to do

these things? Like, I mean, sometimes I'm just like, I don't really want to be bothered. I, it's against my will to send these text messages. I love this. No, I know. No, no, no, that's classic avoidance. I love that you say that because it's such classic avoidant response. She's not. I mean, I'm telling you I appear very differently to different people. Right. No, no. And it's true. And you can be more avoidant with your friends. And it's actually, I've heard that across like a lot with friends. You can be more. And like, it's classic avoidant with friends. And like, so when that's part of what I'm trying to explain to avoidance, it's like, by not doing that, you actually end up having to send like longer text, spend more time. It's for you more than for them even, because it will save you so much time.

You will give you the time that you need by sending something very short. But sometimes it's very hard to avoidance to come into terms with it. It's like, no, I don't want to do that. So that's the other part of it. It's like they need to take care of themselves. I don't expect them to do that for me. And that's kind of like the other pitfall that I talk about in secure

and in the class, on master class, is more how you don't understand that avoidance are about 20, 25% of the population. And oftentimes, that's part of their superpowers. They don't need reassurance. In many ways, they're very self-sufficient. But they don't understand that other people are not like that,

that other people really do need that. and when you form a more secure relationship with them, it's like that's how you build your carp credit. They don't really think about you much. Secure relationships really fade into the background because if we understand, there's a connection between our attachment and our exploratory drive.

And you can see it easily in kids. If they play with toys, like then the mom is there every once in a while. They're like, oh my God, all these amazing toys. I don't remember, if you remember it. I used to love going to toy stores and look at all these different things. you get so excited.

Yeah, right? And then every once in a while, I like to say the mom is there, and that's it, but you don't really care, but have the mom disappear all the standards of the store, and you start crying and where's mom? And then I'll try to give you a toy. You'll throw it in my face.

You couldn't care less. So it's easy to see how, like, being, having that availability of the other person keeps you engaged in the world and you don't really think about them. It's easier to see it in kids, but it's the same in adults, and that friend that texts you, all of a sudden he disappeared. It's like, oh my God, she's not there. She's mad at me, this and that.

It's like that distress that gets instigated. But if they looked and they checked and they saw you there and it's like, okay, they're not going to think about you. They're going to continue on. We don't play with toys, but we create podcasts. We write books with all these different things in our life. Can you tell us the other percentages because people love numbers and percentages? You said 20% of the population is avoidant. Are there percentages that are they rough? So this was like the first study they found about 25% avoidant, 20% anxious, 54% secure and a very small number, fearful avoidant. But I think people now say that there's more insecurity now. But it's very hard to measure that.

Well, people are self-reporting. Yeah, it's all self-report. And also there's more of a spectrum. And like you said, you tell, we can be different with different people and different pets. So it's kind of like really changes. But definitely there is this idea that we can all become more secure and that we can really change and become more secure. And especially, I think, even more so, definitely with the help of secure people. But also we can learn these little tricks, these little tools to really get us to a more secure place, to act in a more secure way.

So on the other side of the coin, somebody who's really anxious, how do you talk to? them about not needing that text in the morning and then telling yourself all these stories throughout the day about why I'm not getting or walking away from somebody that treats you like right and like find a secure person it seems like they bridge the gap like I can't it's to me the anxious and the avoidant are so far from each other in the spectrum like it seems like an anxious person is fixed I've got nothing's wrong with them by a secure person and the same with an avoidant like it's like the secure partners out there in the world the 50% are the ones that bridging the gap with the anxious and the avoidant partners.

First of all, so there's something that I call the carp intervention. And so when you see that someone is not being carp and they like trigger the worst in you, then you do the carp intervention. You don't tell them, are you okay? You're mad at me. You, you text and he say, hey, to me, it's really important that people are consistent, available, and responsive in my life. And I try to be that way, but it really affects me.

badly people aren't. And so, like, just like letting you know that. You start like, so you do that carp intervention. And remember that I told you that we all have this secure, like a secure kernel within us. So it's almost like you summon something. You give the option of someone to show up to you in a different way. And then you wait and see. And if they were able to be carp with you, wow, that's great.

You've, I call it like a secure village. You've recruited another person to your secure village. And if they're not, then for anxious specifically, I have this tool that's called wall tennis with love. Let's hear about it. Yeah, talk to us about it. Well, tennis with love is, I don't know if you've ever played tennis against the wall, but whatever you dish to the wall, the wall returns in about the same velocity in the same

way. It doesn't initiate. So in wall tennis with love, you're the anxious person. The other person is not carp. Then you become the wall. You don't initiate. But whenever they reach out to you. you, you respond to them with love.

Because you want to, you're not like engaging in protest behavior. You're not ignoring them. You know, all the stuff that you do when, when you're, when you're like upset with someone. You don't do that. You engage with them with love.

So for example, I have a friend that I'm doing Walt Tennis with love with. And it's a different friend. And also with them, it wasn't such an easy relationship. And I can show you on my phone. Like he would text me, hi. So I'm the wall.

I text him. immediately a high back. I mean, as soon as I can. A week goes by. I don't hear anything. I don't say anything. Then I get another high after a week. I text high again.

Then two days go by. Then he calls me. So I answer the phone and we talk and we have a really nice conversation. And it's nice, actually. Whereas before we didn't get along and it was like, hi. And it's like, then I would send you there, question mark. And he would ignore me for a week. and by the time he was like, and so I don't respond at all.

I'm the wall. I can't. In the past, I used to try to call him if something was going on and I didn't feel well. I would call and I would get rebuffed and it would get upset and it would be so many ups and downs. I don't. I don't do that. Like I have, I created this map for myself and I know who the secure people in my love are. And I call them.

I don't call this person and I talk to them. But actually, it really preserved the relationship with him. because I don't have expectations from him for closeness or availability or carp that he can't meet. And actually, it's become a really, really good relationship. I feel that we become closer in some ways, even though I will not initiate. Because you kind of let go of your expectations of it. Yeah. So I don't really, I'm not going to do something that then will backfire and then will upset me.

For friendships that you want to preserve, clearly that's the answer. But for a romantic relationship, I mean, do you feel like the advice is little different because then you were just taking what someone's willing to give you at the expense of yourself and your own well-being at a certain point. Like you hope your security is going to rub off, but it may or may not. Right. Like the anxious person, you gave great advice for how the anxious person should deal with somebody they're dating, but like how do you say to yourself, it's time to it's too much. It's time to walk away here. Right. Here's the thing. I think, let's say someone that you're with, like you're in a relationship with. And they're more avoidant and they can really give you

everything that you need. I actually have an example of this woman who is very, like she really needs a lot of input about like what she wears and what she buys and she used to drive her husband and then also her kids crazy. She was like, should I wear this? Should I wear that? Or should I buy this? Should I buy that?

And like, oh, you're so, why can you make your own decisions? And then she found these other two women who also really love to be consult and be consult. Circle the drain. Yeah. With all those questions. And now they're constantly on FaceTime with each other, like shopping, sending pictures, getting thumbs up. Completely.

And what seemed to be like she's so needy, now actually turned out that she's super collaborative and really there and able to kind of like really give advice and get advice from like these two other women in her life. And they're constantly like together go back and forth. And that's another thing that I. talk about in insecure and like about your hidden sparks of talent and how like something that you can actually a lot of people people with anxious attachment like experiences and impediment is actually like a hidden spark of talent that if giving the right environment will have a chance to shine.

So we have this idea that we have to get everything from our romantic partner. But we're very savvy social species. and we can actually get different things from different people and if we can actually learn to develop it more, she used to be so upset about her the way that her husband and her kids would sort of react to her. And if I told her, like, what? Like she wouldn't even remember that that was ever even an issue, I think,

because it's like, oh, yeah. It's just sort of just like outsource what you need to other people and have your needs met and maybe you just won't feel like. I mean, the answer is clearly not like your husband and your children. I mean, you do whatever you want. But, you know, I think that you're saying she found a community of people that kind of validated who she was and made her feel more secure. And so she showed up more secure in these other relationships. And this idea of the outsourcing itself is an idea that I would sort of argue.

It's actually more in line with how we as a human species are that we have a need for greater connection to others. And that's part of those oldies connected semis, those semis, I really extended. it beyond my immediate relationships, I was to be the first person who would ever go into an Uber is like, don't talk to me, like looking into my phone. Just like maybe saying, hi, hi, so I'll get my five stars. But like nothing beyond that, right? Try to sort of be as polite as possible, so I don't get a bad review. But since I've written this book, like, Attach and I also, I've discovered how this connectedness and how actually giving attention, there's this philosopher that I quote in Secure Simone

Simone Bay, this French philosopher. It's a fascinating woman. And she said that attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity. And I never really thought about giving someone attention as a form of generosity. But now that I see it that way,

I'm like, yeah, I'm going to talk to the Uber driver. And amazing things have come, like have happened since I started doing that. I've talked to this one guy in London an Uber driver about his kid. I used to tell me how he used to get into fights all the time. It was really hot-headed. And now he had a kid who then turned out to have autism.

And how he now started this whole network for parents with kids with autism. And I actually, because I'm a child psychiatrist, I gave him like a few numbers of people who can reach out to it at Columbia. And so I formed all these different connections with different people around the world. And the science you'll read and you'll see, it's incredible. We always think about using all these, like, different. creams, like for our faces to look healthier and to, but actually being connected slows down our biological aging. It's kind of like incredible, much more so than all of these supplements

and all of those peptides. The science doesn't back any of those up. All the stuff that you see that's supposed to help you on TikTok, most of it is just bogus. But the science of connectedness, there's so many really well-made studies that show us how it actually needs. increases longevity, increases our health, and slows down biological aging on a cellular level. And happier societies. I mean, it just, it kind of sounds like to sum it up, I mean, you tell me if I'm wrong, but somebody who's anxious really needs to build out a secure community of friends almost. And then you will be less susceptible to some real avoiding bullshit in your romantic life. And I think people that are extremely avoidant in their romantic life have a tough

time because when somebody starts being avoided, it tugs every single part of you into them. and maybe if you build a life out around you that kind of de-escalates that, you'll just be like, I don't have time for this bullshit. But at the same time, I have to say, when you're dating, it's really like lead in with that carp thing. This woman who, like, she hooked up with this guy on Tinder.

It was just a hookup. They spent their night together, and they, like, she didn't never thought anything would come out of it, but they had an amazing time together and they felt they really connected. So then a week later, they hooked up again. And in between the two hookups, like she was trying to text him, but he wasn't very responsive.

But she really didn't make much of it because she was like, whatever. It's just like, just fun. But then after the second night in the morning, she felt that there was something even more. So she said, she told him, look, for me, it's very important that people in my life will be consistent, available and responsive. And I saw that with those texts. Like, it didn't really, I saw that. You're not like, like, he wasn't exactly like that. So I feel that there's something there.

And if it's good, but if it's going to work. you need to be more car because otherwise I know myself and if I don't hear back from you, I'm just going to be hitting up your phone and I don't like that. I don't like to be that way. I don't like that about myself. So it's not going to work. And he said, you know, like all of my friends like say that I never respond to him, I'm really not good at that. But I'm going to try. Oh, wow. And now several years later, and I think like one child, like two kids, yeah, like they've been married. And when you talk to him and he really, and he really, and. When he doesn't call her, she would hit up his phone.

Like she would call him like 10 times in a row. And then he was like, hey, babe, sorry. I couldn't talk. And like, he was just like, that's it. It wouldn't be like a big upset. And when you talk to him, he will say, you know, when she put it that way, it didn't feel like such a huge ask. I could understand it.

And he didn't feel like, oh, because it was a band. There's as a child or all of that. No, it was like, this is how I am. And that's what I need. So she was able to summon that secure thing from him. And he was able to show up in a more secure way. I mean, these are good qualities to have. All you're doing is asking someone, like, I'd really love consistency. I mean, I would hate if someone described me as inconsistent, unreliable, like the

unpredictable, all those things. It's like, you're just kind of saying, like, I want a partner that has these really positive attributes. Are you willing to step up to the plate? But also, remember, it's not that hard to be. That's the thing for avoidance to understand. That's what I'm saying. But for avoidance it is, I think it's for somebody that feels like I have a hard time like clocking into intimacy. But it's like it feels like they're rejecting it because they don't want to be pushed around or something. You know, like someone that has that ability to be secure shouldn't really be phased by this like,

hey, do you mind just like texting me consistently responding to me? But also that actually like the way that I presented to avoidance, it's actually if you, because they also want the connection. Sure. If you really want your distance, learn how to use the attachment logic to your benefit. it, learn, and we do that all the time, it's much easier to seeing kids. You're not going to wait to feed a child until they're very, very hungry. You're not going to put them to sleep when they're super, super tired because you're going to get the backlash of it. So you anticipate their needs.

Yeah. So as an adult, if you learn to work with the attachment nurse circuitry rather than sort of butt heads with it all the time, it's going to work so much to your advantage. And people are going to leave you alone. You're going to get the space that you need. All I need to do is do some preemptive action and understand the logic of how the attachment works because you keep budding heads with it. And then you keep sort of like getting the short end of the stick. I like that you said avoiding people. They want attachment too and they want to feel love and companionship. You know, they present as I don't want this and this is a pain to me, but they want it as well. and if you can give them some tools to not feel so irritated and put upon by somebody else.

Yeah. So you have in the book that security is contagious, and we touched on it a little bit and like building this secure village. And I think that's really important. And I want to just hear you speak on it. Like, again, why it's so important to, I use the word rub off. That's just kind of a lighter way to phrase it. And I think of a friend we have.

I remember one time we were at dinner and she was like, you seem really secure. And she was like, I want to channel that more in parts of my life. And I feel like we have watched her become more secure, like over time. And I think we have seen her choose some different type of friendships than she may have in the past. And it has turned out to be contagious. And so I just wanted to hear you can speak on that. That's the way that you just described it, that's kind of like taking the whole idea behind secure priming therapy and something like putting it like in a nutshell. nutshell. Basically, what attachment styles are is a working model. It's a script that our brain

has about what to expect from the world. But if we present the brain with evidence to the contrary, no, relationships are not that fragile. No, people are not going to disappoint you all the time. No, people are not going to pull away from you at a time. People actually are going to show up for you. And when you want closeness, if you send them talking about a picture or about a clothes, they'll like send you something right back. They tell you, yeah, it's good or no. Where the green dress and not the red dress and they're going to be so all these little seamies the small interactions each one of them is an opportunity for your brain to change and when you understand your science it really changes on a molecular level to become more secure so you kind of like i become

like this pacman going and sort of collecting all those secure seamies around in my life because i understand how like how much it contributes to the well-being of my brain that feeling of of being hyper-connected to others. But each person has to do it on their own. We are different animals. And you can see it in dogs. Like, my dog is a little bit more avoidant. He likes, he's not going to be, like, when you see on TikTok, those dogs that are

constantly like at your face, like on you all the time. No, he's going to be, he's not somewhere in a different room now. He's going to be at the edge of the bed. He doesn't. Yes, he wants to be in the room with us. He wants the people around, but he will not ever lay on us. And it's, you know. Right, exactly.

The worst thing about it. He's Ashley. She wants to be invited, but don't touch her. I want to be around people always, but don't be on me too much. Right. So we all bring our own biology to the mix, and it's fun. There's nothing wrong with that. We just have to communicate to people that is not about them.

We have to learn to use the logic, the attachment logic, that can help us ease into something that works better and doesn't cost the snipping of the cord, the attachment cord. So when we learn to do that, again, with whatever our biology needs, then we get this really more, it's really what security is, is about stability and the stability of our nervous system. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, we have to, I guess, wrap up with you, but congratulations on the master class and the new book. And it really is just fantastic.

And we encourage people to get that and read that. Can you tell everybody where they can find you and your work and anything else? Yeah, definitely. So I would say to do the quiz and get your attachment style, the map topography, you can go to Amir Levine, MD.com. You can take the quiz there, my class on Masterclass on the Masterclass website. And I also have training for therapists and people who do coaching that I'm going to start in the fall. So you can go to my website and you can leave your email and then we'll send you more information when the time come.

Okay. Okay. Great. Amazing. Do you feel like we covered it all? Any final parting thoughts? Or we just want to make sure we could sit here and talk to you forever. Oh, yeah.

I mean, there's one more thing. I mean, if you have a few minutes, I can tell you. Let's do it. You don't have to. We're here on your schedule. You have the floor. I've been trying to get you on this show for years. You were really hard to find.

And when we got the email that you wanted to come on the show, I was like, get up. So there's one thing in secure. And I think I also talk about it in the conference. in the class and master class, I talk about there's like these two rules of secure engagement. Like once you get into an argument, how to deal with it from an attachment perspective.

So maybe I thought it'll be cool if I just mentioned that because I... Let's do it. It's been super helpful in my life and the life of my patients and everybody that I know. So there's two rules. The one rule says that only one person is allowed to be upset at the time.

And the attachment logic behind it is like If you think about secure attachment, like secures are really good in helping other people calm down. That's really one of the biggest function of a secure bond is that like if something bad happens to me, if I turn to someone that I'm securely attached to, sometimes a single word or a hug will make me feel better like instantaneously. There's no clonopin or Xanax in the world that gets even close to that effect because we're such highly social species. But insecure attachment can also be one of the biggest instigator of emotional upset.

So if we understand the role of a secure attachment, then we know that if one person is upset, then the secure bond means that the other person should really find a way if they can to help the other person calm down. So really function as that secure anchor to the world. But that's not always that easy to do because when we're attached to someone, it's like we become like one physiological unit and it reverberates. So when they're upset, it's very easy for us to get upset

just by the nature of the bond. So then if both are upset, usually what happens now when people, like some of my patients will say like one would upset and the other would get upset and they would say, wait, wait a second, only one is allowed to be upset at the time.

And I was upset first, so it's my turn and they start laughing. So, but if that doesn't dissipate things, then there's the second rule. The follow-up rule, the Mia Copa rule, she's like, it's my fault. And it's my fault. Now what happens, if you're both upset, then now you both need to apologize to each other. You apologize for the fact that you weren't able to function,

to fulfill your secure role in your relationship of helping reach stability, that emotional stability again. Oftentimes, what people do is like they want to get, no, but I'm right, and you're right. Attachment doesn't care about who's right and who's wrong. because for attachment, it's not about all these arguments. And it doesn't mean, that's a lot of chatter that comes from the prefrontal cortex and use a lot of words, but attachment is preverbal. Attachment, the right thing from an attachment perspective is how do I feel connected to you again?

And then you can argue about who's right and who's wrong tomorrow. But usually people don't even care about that because it's not really about that. So once you learn how to apologize like that and really help calm the system down, between the two of you that really not worry so much about who's right and how you have to explain yourself and all of that stuff, you really are more true to the attachment logic of what you need from each other in an argument. I think it's really great. I think a lot of couples just really need to be caution on how to communicate with each other.

And I've certainly dated people that just grew up with a very different parental lifestyle than I did and they have a different baseline and need something different. Yeah. And friendships too. I mean, since you brought it up, the friend that I just mentioned, the one that was like, you're really secure and I would like to be more like that. We had a conflict. And listen, I do identify as secure, but I can be combative and I can get defensive and I can

feel that anger in my gut. Like I really am like quick, not as quick anger as I used to be. But we were having this combative type argument over something so stupid. And she really was like took it to a, I think we should take some space. We had some plans. I think we should cancel those. like I try to break up with me. And some switch flipped in me and I was like, I have to in this moment de-escalate this. Apologize. What are we doing here? We're friends. We're better than this.

Like, I love you. This was so silly. Let's put this past us. And I was able to do it in a way that I have not always been able to do in the past in romantic relationships and even friendships. And it like saved our relationship. I could feel her about to end this friendship. And I was able to like stop and have a little self-talk of like let me be the one to fix this in this moment. And we laughed about it even within hours and still that's exactly what I was talking about. You see, it's like you apologize. Not necessarily about the argument and all that, but you've really found a way to reconnect on the level that that's what the attachment really system cares about.

And she didn't really, she just didn't know what to do with her like all those like really difficult feelings. And you were able to really calm every. down. That's exactly what I talk about. And so it's really nice when two get really upset. One, at least, there needs to be one secure adult in the room, but it's even better both know that it's both of their roles. I'm not always the adult. I want to be clear, but yes. No, of course. That's my one, claim to fame. No, but you saw how effective it was. Actually, I had some conflict with her recently. It was beautiful. And I think she really learned from that

situation. But yeah, we just, I really like that you framed it that way. But it's actually it's something that we can practice. And that's how I actually also end the book and the class. I say it's really a secure practice. None of us are going to be perfect in this. But knowing the tools and knowing, you know what, this is escalating. Like you got to it just like instinctively. Like I need to do something here.

I need to step in and I apologize and I sort of made things better. And then below, lo and behold, and you still remember it. And obviously you told us the story because the effect was amazing. Yeah. So I think that's like something always to keep in mind. And we get asked that a lot. Like I conflict with a partner with a friendship with a parent. And so I love the message overall.

These tatafin styles are not fixed. It's a practice. None of us are just born with these tools. And, you know, the books are a great place to learn it. For sure. Yeah. That's good. Well, thank you for everything.

This was really fantastic. And congrats on everything that you have had come out recently. I know our audience will just eat it up. Yeah. I was reading some reviews of the book. And it's just, you know, it's been out a month about. And it's just already changing people's lives. And so thank you for putting this out there after attached.

And we just, we really appreciate it. And you guys check out the masterclass. And we already kind of gave your, your plugs earlier. And then we dove back in. But everybody knows, find you. Masterclass books, all the things. So we really appreciate your time. Yeah.

Thank you. I had a lot of fun. It was fun talking to you guys. Great. You too. Okay. All right. Well, thank you guys for being here.

As always, Girls Gotta Eat. com. Girls Gotta Eat podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I am Ash Hess on Instagram and TikTok. Raina is Raina.greenberg. Raina Greenberg.com for her fall tour tickets, full video on Spotify and YouTube. We would love if you would leave a comment on Spotify, subscribe on YouTube, share this episode with really anyone.

And we will see you Thursday. Have a good week, guys. Bye. Bye.