Girls Gotta Eat - How to Break Bad Habits and Build Good Ones with James Clear

Episode Date: January 2, 2023

We are so excited to kick off a new year with such a special guest – James Clear, author of the best-selling book Atomic Habits. We chat with James about why bad habits form and how to break them, how to build better habits and stick to them, the most common mistakes people make and how to avoid them, plus understanding and achieving our goals. Before the interview, we're sharing our own goals for 2023, a hilarious date story about Rayna's dad, and Ashley's sex toy/doorman encounter. Enjoy and Happy New Year! Follow James on Instagram @jamesclear and check out his website to sign up for his newsletter and more. Follow us @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit our website for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Shop Vibes Only. Thank you to our partners this week: Hello Fresh: Go to hellofresh.com/gge21 and use code GGE21 for 21 free meals plus free shipping. Athletic Greens: Go to athleticgreens.com/gge to get a free 1-year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D + 5 free travel packs with your first purchase. Living Proof: Go to livingproof.com/gge and use code GGELP to get 10% off your first purchase. Buffy: For $20 off your order, visit buffy.co and enter promo code GGE. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

If there's ever a gap between your goal and your system, if there's ever a gap between your desired outcome and your daily habits, your daily habits will always win. Happy New Year. Okay. No. You do your part. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Got to eat. Happy New Year.

You said Happy New Year to you two weeks ago. I have to tell you, I watched that this morning. I was laughing out loud of my bed. It comes out of your body. You can't help yourself. It's like, it's mid-December. When you said it's the 19th. I'm excited.

I mean, listen, I am so excited for this year. I feel it in my body. Kelly's going to do a reading with me at the end of the year. We're recording this a little bit before the end of the year. But we will have had it now. 31st, we're going to do it and just get ready for the year. This is the second, that this episode is coming out. We will be in L.A. tomorrow, if you're listening.

On the third is the day that we're going. And I just have such high hopes. and I'm so excited. And welcome to the show if you're new here. This is a comedy podcast. We make jokes. So you don't like jokes. It's not going to be for you.

Yeah. We're best friends. I'm Ashley. This is for Rana. I don't know. I just feel like it's a new year. I like it. Intro the show.

We don't keep doing it. Dating and sex and relationships and butt stuff and habits. With each other or other people. And this is a zool. I wore my Beverly Hills sweatshirt for you today. In honor of us living in L.A. snowboarding, if you will, for the winter. Oh my gosh.

I am really excited for this year. We are launching GGE West. It feels good. It does feel good. Every time I'm like, is this a mistake? Do I really want to leave New York City? I take a walk half a block. And I'm like, fuck this place.

I love New York. It's very important to me, but we'll be snowboarding. The litmus test is easy. Okay. Today's episode is really special. I am so excited. We have James Clear, the author, one of the number one books in the country and in the world,

Atomic Habits. So we're talking about habits. It's a new year. Ashley and I aren't like huge specific resolution. People lose 10 pounds. But like I think we both really like to like evaluate our year, what we did well, what we could do better. And then try to like make some positive changes. It's more like a vibe shift than a specific resolution.

Yeah. We'll talk about what we hope for the year. But I love this episode so much. While we were recording it, I was like, there's no notes. It's just, it's perfection in every way. So we really are happy to start the year with him. We usually do, you know, the past two years, you guys can always go back. We've really talked about drinking a lot.

In the first episode of the year, we had a therapist Amanda White last year, beginning of 2020, and then the year before we had Nikki Glazer. And it's always such a topic. I mean, I've cut back on my drinking significantly and probably will continue that, especially being in L.A. I feel like they don't drink there. I feel like they're all on psychedelics and they do drugs, but just like good stuff, like, you know, weed and mushrooms.

I mean, a lot of drinking. Yeah, I think, and that's like, especially if you're like younger too, but I don't know. I feel like when I'm there, I just have like healthy food and healthy lifestyle and sunshine and Azul and I are going to hike together. This is the second to last episode you guys will see in the studio. If you are watching, again, we love if you guys watch on YouTube and subscribe and share with your friends.

but this intro, the interview was virtual. And then next week, we'll be our very last episode in the studio. In front of the boob wallpaper. Maybe for a few months or maybe for good. I don't know what's going to happen. We'll be back here. Who's to say? Big things popping.

No, we'll be back here for one month in April. We'll see. Maybe. I don't know. I don't think I should come back. I, no. I'm saying, we don't know. Who's to say?

So I have one thing to share with you. I know you have some things to share with me that I don't know about, but just one quick thing. This was my grand finale with the doorman of this building. This was my mic drop moment. I didn't fuck one of them. But I talked about the last episode we had two weeks ago. I was emotional about moving out in my apartment and everything. But this was right around the time that I was moving out.

And it was late at night. It was probably like 11 o'clock at night. And earlier in the night, we had been saying that this butt plug was supposed to arrive, and we had to make sure that it was the final. It's our butt plug. Our butt plug. That one we don't share, but vibes only butt plug. We had, we've been testing different things, and it was FedEx to us.

So I go down there, it's like midnight. And I asked my favorite doorman, Dylan, love him. Actually, Dylan and Clinton, I have two faves. And he was working, and I was like, do you have a package for me? And he ended up be like this small pink envelope. And in my head, I'm like, Ashley, are you really going to do it? Are you going to go full Raina? And I go, it's a butt plug.

Oh, my God. And the way he busted out laughing, like, I make them laugh all the time. Like, I'll just be in the lobby entertaining everyone, just like really headlining the lobby. And this was the most that he's like busted out laughing. Feels good, bitch, doesn't it? It feels good when you just say a thing that no one's expecting. It's just, oh. Yes, like for him to hand me that package and me just so casually, it's a butt plug.

He was just, I feel like they shouldn't be surprised three years in of me. Bud plug is always surprising. No, it's never not surprising. It feels good though. And he looked very like, are you serious? Or is this a joke? Like, because I'm coming down at midnight to get it. You know, like, it's like, what is she doing in there?

I got shamed at the FedEx store about the Bud Plug. This lady shamed me into telling her that it was a butt plug. I was just trying to be like Demir, basically. She's like, what is it? I was like, it's just a thing. She's like, what is it? I was like, it's a device. She's like, what?

Like an Apple watch and iPad? I was like, it's a butt plug. So rude to me and monotone, what is this? What a blessing to just drop butt plug on people all the time as a part of your job? It is. It's so fun. Actually, every day I look through our group texts for work and I'm like, I cannot believe this. Like, the amount of times I say clit in a work email is bananas.

I mean, we're blessed. We're just blessed. Yes. So I do have something funny to tell you. This is an update on something that I had told you, but my dad recently moved. He's at a little beach house for the winter too. He's also snowboarding.

Oh, snowboarding. I was like, boarding. Can you imagine? You have to stop him immediately. My dad would, my dad could really drive down the street. Well, my dad's skiing right now. I get so worried about him. Your dad is a full-sized man.

Your dad would. probably be good at snowboarding. He's low to the snow. He's so low to the ground. He's built like a 12 year old. Your dad in full gear. Someone would be like, who's that kid? Oh. So that kid is crushing it. I mean, my dad, he works out every day and he runs. He's athletic, but I look at your dad sometimes and I was like, and I'm like, that's a full grown man. We were with your dad at the Eagles game. It was the best day. And I was walking around with him. He's like a giant man. He's like easy to find, he's easy to find in a crowd. Well, and he's even, I mean, he shrunk a little bit. You know, he's 70 years old. But growing up, I mean, he had full beard.

He hadn't gone gray yet. So just like a full, like, dark hair and he was bigger. Like, he was heavier and taller. And my friends would be like, a little scared. This is hot. You're saying hot. I'm like, like, Corey would be like, your dad was kind of scary. Like, he's just, he's a big bearded man.

I didn't even think about the fact that he's actually smaller than he used to be. It's hot. It's so hot. I can't wait to see him for Christmas. I know we're recording this. after New Year's, but we haven't gone home for Christmas yet. Thanks for clarifying. So my dad is, he's at the beach for the winter with his dog and he had this very cute

meat cute. He was like, my dog ran into this woman's dog and we started playing and we started up a conversation. I asked her at a date and I was like, oh, that is the cutest meat cute. So confident. Like, I just love it. I'm so impressed by him. I love that.

So I texted him and I was like, have fun out of your date tonight. Whatever. He just moved to this beach house. He was like really excited to like pick a restaurant and take somebody out. Oh my God. He sent me and my brother text messages. is. I was like, how was it? Crazy date. No. Am I ready?

Crazy date. Really pretty. Southern Baptist. Asked of her sister that the church lady could come along. Church lady is capitalized. Like, it's a job. It's an SNL sketch. They didn't drink. I got smashed and had fun. Life is funny and strange. Love you. Four exclamation points. That's not the crazy part of this text. Oh, really? Okay. Also, like, that's exactly what my dad. Like, dads, do they all text the same? Like, that's how my dad would, have, They're just fragments.

Yes. Just fragments of sentences. Yes. And none of them are punctuated or they punctuated weirdly. And it's like two words, period. Four words, period. The same with Lee. So I'm like, life really is funny and strange.

Are they sober? Love you, call me tomorrow. So basically he met this woman. She's like, this stranger asked me out on the beach. I guess her sister was in town. She invited her sister to come, which I think is super normal. And she's like, I don't know the second person. It's a little weird, but whatever.

I don't know. I'm fine with it. So he follows up. All right. I don't love it, but okay. So I ask. Your dad, fuck the sister. Your dad out of three.

He's acting like he might. So I ask, are they sober? And he writes, they are religious and sober. I can change that for the hot one. My dad is 76 years old talking like this. Five foot two, 76 years old.

Not really. He's like five seconds. Is the sister the hot one? No, the one he's on a three with was the hot one. I can change that for the hot one. Yeah, dad. He keeps her. The sister church lady is too far gone in religion.

Can't change that. Well, we don't need to change her. You're not trying to have a beat of thruple? I know. Why are you even telling? It capitalizes church lady. He's like, I'm not going to be able to fuck the sister probably. The sister, church capital C, lady, capital L, church lady is too far gone.

I mean, yeah, who cares? Oh, my God. I avoided talking about religion and politics. life is full of insane experiences. This was one of them. It's still fun. And then he texts Arlen. A mismatch of this.

I'm like, I'm like, Dad's on one. This is crazy. Then he texts my dad. He texts my brother. Had date tonight with Hot Girl, met on the beach. Hot girl, she's 60 something. Her dad was like,

It's a hot girl winner, but you know what it is. Like, Hot Girl? Your dad's like, that's real hot girl. He's talking like he's 18, like he's an 18 year old little fuck boy. He's calling her a hot girl time and how he's going to break down, what, six decades of religious breeding? I can change that for the hot one.

She brought her sister Southern Baptist Church Lady all capitalized. They don't drink. I got smashed. Really fun. Life is crazy. Love you spelled L-UV-U. Of course. Kill in the game.

I love it. So I just wanted to read that too because it really got me. I was like, that is my favorite person. Yeah. I love it. Well, we just wanted to really quickly, it's been a couple weeks now, but still we wanted to recap the holiday show, which was just truly iconic, legendary, incredible, never been done before, all the things. We did it at the Apollo Theater, which is just world famous, iconic theater in Harlem. And it was our best New York City show to date, truly, no contest.

And I just wanted to say that and thank you guys all for coming and, you know, coming up to Harlem if you had to travel up there for the show. show in the rain. And we really just had so many different elements. We had the New York Giants drum line, which was incredible. We got really opening with the drum line is my favorite way I like to do it, even though Raina hates it. I will, I'll talk about it. The hunkomania guys. Also, I hate it because she makes me dance. I don't hate it because I'm obsessed with the drumline. Yeah, you'll talk about it. You'll talk about your experience. We had the hunkumania guys, the strippers, and we had our crew from Philly come. We love this guy named Leon. He kind of runs that and they wanted to come up from Philly.

So we love Honcomania. And then we had Jared Freed and we can talk a little bit about his segment. And of course, Bella ran the show as always. And we had Ryan Video and Mike photo and just our whole dream team. And everybody made it so incredible. And it was really just one of those shows where everything just fell into place. And we truly got offstage and we're like, that was unreal. And so glad that our New York people like our agent and business manager and the people,

that we really wanted to see such a special show could see it. So it was incredible. Thank you guys for making it what it was. Yeah. If you were there. And the staff of the Apollo was really unbelievable and we loved them and they're all pros. They congratulated us on being there because I don't think that anybody can just perform there, even if you can tell it out. You know, I think that they vet who can perform there. So it was an honor. Yeah, it really was an honor. And then they gave us a little gift because they said we were the fastest selling out show in all of 2022. Our show sold out the fastest. And then deep cut, we are leaving the theater, about to go out afterwards with everybody and who was in the hallway, but Montel Jordan, this is how we do it.

I've never seen Ashley ask to take a picture of some quick. I don't fan grow people. I don't fan grow people a lot, but I was like, if I don't get a picture with Montel Jordan, I'm just now realizing that I haven't posted it yet, so I'm going to do that. But I was, I mean, it's Montel Jordan. Some of you kids don't know who that is, but this is how we do it. And all the other thing. It was fine. Yeah, it was really good. I really, I'm so proud. This is something I felt a tremendous amount of anxiety about, which I've obviously talked to you about privately, and you were really helpful to me. I just haven't been on stage while our last show was in July, and you're always on

stage, and you perform all the time, and you work on your craft, and I have never taken this much time off of performing ever, and I was just like, who does this? This is crazy. Like, I'm going to dance down the aisle singing with a drumline, I'm going to write all new material. Like, who does? There's so many moving parts. Our holiday show is a million moving parts.

It's so much to choreograph. and Ashley and Bella are so good at it. But I just, it was the most stress and anxiety I've ever felt. And I was like, am I going to be funny? Is this going to be good? Is Ashley going to outshine me so much? Because she's so good at this. I've been doing this for so long.

And like, I haven't. And I bought this outfit that I was like basically naked in. And I was like, am I going to feel stressed out about my body? And I just, I feel really proud. I, like, worked really hard on the set. And I worked out really hard to fit into that outfit. And I just, I had so much fun with you on stage. And it just felt so natural.

But I kept thinking, like, who does this? this, this is crazy people do this. This is insane that I'm doing this. And I just, I felt really proud. And our friends that have come to every, we have the same crew of friends that have come to every single New York show, like five shows at this point. And every single, keep talking to me about it, days later, saying how great it was. And I just, I feel really proud of what we did. And our audience is great. And there's nobody better. And they sold out the show so fast. And you guys send the craziest funniest emails and you spend your birthdays with us, your anniversaries, your bachelor's parties. And it just means so much. So you made the show so

wonderful for me. And our audience did you, Ashley. And well, you crush, it. I mean, it was incredible. Thanks. You just rolled right through. I mean, it was really, really good. It was my favorite. I hate that my family wasn't there to see it, but I'm telling you that when they come, it's like something different. So my, I'm having them come in, in 2023. So I just want them to see some different vibes. Like, I want them to come to the Chicago fucking theater. You know, it's the biggest venue that we do. And so I want Matt and stuff to come there. I want to fly them down. I want my parents to come to D.C. because we always love DC so much. But that being said, guys, we have shows in 2020.

And then there's still, some are sold out. There's still tickets left for some. And a lot of these bigger shows are in May. So time to start planning ahead. It's January. You get your 20, 23 schedule and order and get those tickets. And we will see you with those shows. We can't wait.

They're going to be different. I will say there was one thing that we did. I just was like, we got to figure out something different. We have to make something totally, totally different than no one's ever seen before. And we tested it at the show. It's unbelievable. And we're doing it on the road. It was, I'm not going to say what it is.

I didn't even post pictures of it. I thought you'd be proud of me. I didn't pull pictures of it because I didn't even want anybody to see it. I know. I can't wait to do it. So come to these shows. We can't wait to see you guys. And I just have to say one funny thing.

So Jared Freed comes out and he basically like roast the show up until that point. His commentary is unbelievable. I don't think I talked for 10 minutes. I can't breathe. I can't catch my breath. I'm laughing so hard. So he basically said that your outfit, you look like a firecracker. You looked like Britney Spears.

But in like, you know, toxic. And then also at the VMA, she did that naked suit one time. That's the most memory I have of her looking like nude, sparkly. I can't tell you. how many men told me that I look like the toxic. I was like, oh, of course, you remember this. Yes, everybody remembers that video. And then he told me I look like a snow owl.

And he was right. And that's the funniest comparison. People were like in my comments on my Instagram post saying headwig, like, saying headwig could never. And it's giving headwig. And I was like, what is this? This is the most rain as, friend thing because I was like, oh, of course.

Of course I know. So I was like, I was like, I don't know. I left, I let it go a while before I even Googled it. And then I Google it. I'm like, oh my God, it's this owl from Harry Potter. And I was dying and it's such a more raided. I've never seen anything Harry Potter. I've never read a sentence of the book. I've never watched even a clip of the movie. And so people were shook when I posted my Instagram story that I had to Google

Headwig and this one girl message me. And she was like, Ashley, I thought I was more Ashley's friend this whole time. And I'm just realizing that I'm not and I'm going to need some time. And I said, take as much time as you need. And then people are like, Ashley, you should get it in Harry Potter. It's really good. Like, it's a hot take.

Like, I'm probably not going to start now later in life. I don't, I think that you're past the age when you can start. I don't think it's for me. Yeah, you know, you just watch this whole thing. I'm Twilight, Rain is Harry Potter. Yeah, it's the, and I watched Twilight, and I watched first movie, and I was just like, I don't think this is for me. Okay, I thought of another thing that I thought maybe the outfit looked like, and I want to know

if you are. There's so many things. I can, like, if you already know this, there's Elvis, there's Elton John. there's abominable snowman. There is David Bowie in... That's it? The Goblin King? Yes, in the Labyrinth.

The Goblin King. I took a photo of this and I was like, it's giving David Bowie. It's... The outfit gives so different... People were like, Lady Gaga, Beyonce, Elton John. Like, it's so much. We're gonna flash this on the screen if you're watching YouTube.

It made me laugh so hard. I've been meaning to show this to you for days. So go check out my outfit. It's on my Instagram story. I did a whole dedicated post to it. I'm gonna do one too. those are the two best outfits we've ever worn. I felt so proud.

I felt so comfortable. Yeah. And I, listen, I cut snacks out. I cut snacks out for months because Bobby told me that a bag of anything is bad for me. And I was like, oh, I crush a bag of pretzels every night at 10.30 p.m. So I work really hard for this outfit. It's the first episode of the year. Raina has probably brought this up 37 times.

Yes, I dead. Bobby West, I told her a bag of anything is bad for you. And it changed your life. It changed my whole life. I put it on my grave. Okay. I, so I was trying to like figure, listen, I love my body and I work out really, I work out a lot, and I'm really confident, I'm proud of how I look, and we'll talk about it in this episode.

But I, that outfit I wore was basically just like a mesh tan body suit with jewels all over it. And I was like, I refuse to sit on stage and feel stressed out about how I look. And so I just want to be in the best shape I can possibly be in. So I just thought like, what are some small changes I can make to my diet? So I was talking to our friend Bobby, who's a workout instructor. And he was like, tell me what you eat in a day. And I was like, I'm really healthy. I was taking the whole thing

and I was like sometimes I eat a bag of pretzels at night for dinner and he was like right now and I was like it's not bad it's pretzels and he was like a bag of anything is bad for you

and it my whole brain exploded I never thought about I do I'll crush a whole bag of checks not the small bag the big one this all yeah a whole bag of goldfish crackers there's nothing worse

because it's like processed and sodium and it's just really not good yeah also do whatever you want bring joy if that brings joy to you Oh right of course and we both think that also

like Ash and I eat we crush checks mix yeah I drink it out of the bag of the bag when no one's around. But if you, yeah, I mean, live your truth. But a lot of times, you know, people are like, I'm working out every day. Why am I not seeing results? Is because of your diet. That was why. Well, you're eating. So that's just, it's a simple fact. And, you know, binging snacks like that is not going to do you any favors. And it's funny because we told,

we said this to Ryan, our videographer. And he goes, what about a bag of baby carrots? I was like, shut up, Ryan. Fuck you. Okay. You know, so I was at the grocery store. yesterday's standing in front of the baby carrots thinking of the two of you. Well, clearly it's just snacks. It's like processed stacks. Yeah. So anyways, if you came, thank you. Get tickets to the shows this year.

They're going to be absolutely epic and we can't wait to see you guys. Yes, girls got to eat.com. Click on live shows and we will see you guys on the Snack City Tour. Okay. Should we talk about our goals for the year? It's funny because I look at your computer and I can't read it. So you don't have to cover anything. It sounds like a secret.

I have some big goals this year. You do? Yes. Okay, talk to me about them. This is going to be a huge year for me. Why are you laughing? I feel like every year is a big year for us. It is, it is.

Every year we're like, what can we add to our plates to make us have less time? I mean, I think I've always said this. I like to live my life in a way where life just keeps getting better. And every year is the best year. With exception in 2020, let's be honest. 2019, better than 2020. Those first two months were nice. Those first two months of 2020,

the best two months of my life. We're just, we always see this. We're not big like five-year plan people. We like to pivot. We like to evaluate what's going on. Our businesses, our friendships, our relationships,

and pivot. I don't have like a five-year plan, certainly not a 10-year plan that's crazy to me. So, yeah. I mean, we all go through stages and phases and ups and downs, but as a whole, I want my life to be getting better. You know,

I want to be getting more successful and earning more and becoming a better person and having good relationships. And so, you know, in general, I would like it to just, I want to end the year with being like, that was the best year so far, and there's more to come. So number one, I wrote five, number one, just really want to crush it in L.A. and just feel really happy and at home while we're there. And I don't think that's going to be hard. No, I can already like picture myself. You can just check that off. I do want to have a relationship this year. I really feel like it's going to happen.

People are really feeling it for me. I'm getting messages from strangers. I'm getting messages. I'm getting messages from strangers are like you're going to meet someone in LA. I think you are. Truly. Okay. I want to use the butt plug with him. Okay. That's one of the goals or that's like a joint goal. Is that part of the five or is that like an end them to number two? I wrote down relationship, a butt plug. Okay. And again, I just say that loosely. I don't know what that looks like. I'm not saying like I want to find the love of my life. We all know I'm not getting engaged. It's me. The first episode. Right. I've already found that person. Exactly. I have a soulmate. I'm all set. Yeah, I just, I want someone I'm excited about and, you know, okay, three, just grow our companies

and follow through with a lot of things that have been happening in the works. I don't, I'm not trying to make this sound vague, but there have been some things and I just want to see them through and have them come to fruition and really just blow these companies up even more than they already are for our tour. I would love to have a full sold-out tour, but at the very least, just all successful shows. We really can't wait. We're hitting some new cities this year. And we just want to have a good time. Florida, don't let us down. Get those tickets. We know you guys wait till the very last fucking minute. But this is our first time doing theaters in Florida. So we've always in the comedy clubs. Come to these shows. We have crazy stuff in the works.

Don't fuck this up. Okay. We can't wait to see you. We love Florida. No one stands Tampa and Miami and Orlando like us. And listen, again, big dreams this year, buy a house. Okay. We've been buying a house for a lot of years. I've been trying to start the girls. Got to eat real estate portfolio for five years. So I have been looking since fall of 2020. And I put offers in and I am serious. I obviously go in waves when I'm in Delaware and able to look. And I'm not so under pressure. I have a place to live. But I really do want it. And last summer I really was like, I really want to buy a house before this summer of 2023. And we'll see what happens. Life could go crazy and that will be great. And I may not be able to. But it's on my list.

and I hope that it happens and if it doesn't I know it'll happen when it's meant to but I can do it I'm ready you could have done it I have the money

I know where I can live I just keep in the house you ended that thought like four times I could do it I have the money and I'm just like I'm just really excited to be on this journey with you

and go into another year of our friendship but I'm so excited that I waited you out got you to come to L.A. Because we know that I was on board before you. Years before. And you're doing it.

I'm really doing it. And you're wearing the sweatshirt. You're wearing the merch. I'm wearing the merch. And yeah, I just, I'm thankful for you and the way that we, like, support each other and stay aligned on things and help each other reach our goals. Oh, I love your, thank you very much for saying that. I love your list.

My list is, of course, it's the same. I, too, I'm going to buy a house in Delaware. Okay, those two houses, though. Yeah, listen, Ashley found these houses are the big one and a little one. So I just have to say, these two houses, they're right behind Starboard. Corey lived in the front one one year,

and it was summer of 2009. Lee and I went twice that summer. We tore it up. We were so wasted the whole summer. And there's one behind it, and they come together. I can't even believe it. I've never seen two houses sold together, one tall and one small.

And I think we should get it. Okay. My parents would be like, Raina, don't you want to do anything without her? Maybe do you have any connection to Delaware? I'd be like, yeah, my family lives there. You guys are being nice to me. I sent my mom a text last night, and it said,

I said, I sent you something from Amazon. It's actually going to take a little while longer than I thought. It'll be a way there on December 28th for when you get a package that you didn't, you didn't order. And she wrote, okay, that's interesting, period. That's interesting. Not thank you, not what is it. That was thoughtful.

I can't wait. That's interesting. That's interesting, period. Yeah, and it's like you can't, you know, your mom's in Pittsburgh, but your dad's clearly going to be in this thruple with these women, wherever he is in Florida or whatever. So he's gone, so Delaware it is. She's all I have, and she doesn't care.

That's interesting. And by the way, it was AirPods. I was on the phone with her the other night. She said that her carpal tunnel was hurting her, and she wanted, so it hurt her to hold her phone. And I was like, I'm going to just send her to the AirPods. I'm going to crush, and I was so thoughtful of me. And also interesting, apparently. I love your goals list. Mine are very similar. Of course, we're in business together.

2020 is a great year for me and I'm really proud of a lot of things. And I feel like I said last week, I really healed the relationship of my mom. So I'm proud of that. I feel like I'm going into this year with, not that I have a lot of toxicity, but sometimes I have relationships with anxiety and them and I don't have any of that. I don't have any of that. I want to just continue this year to really maintain all the goodness and all my relationships. I think you and I have such a good relationship, friendship-wise and work-wise. I'm so proud of like all the stuff that we're working on. I am really excited to make LA my home. my anxiety is around the fact that I don't have a lot of like friends, like independent friends. Like they're all our friends, more your friends. So I'm excited to make it my home and to strengthen those relationships with the people that you're really close with who I really love. And also just find new friends and like expand our circle.

Because I love moving to a new city and I think you and I are so good at making friends. And I think that people get anxious about it. And so my advice is always to like say yes to everything and see who you know that even as friends of friends living places. And you just never know who you're going to meet. So I am really committed to saying yes to everything. And just building out the friendships that we already have and finding new ones. Because I just want to say yes a lot.

Andrew Collins is going to be there. Yeah, I'm really excited. I really can't wait. Merrill's going to come out for a little bit. We've Ali. I mean, I just can't wait. It's giving for me when I moved to New York and I was 21.

I didn't have many friends. And so I just, I asked everybody I knew, like, do you know people live in New York? One of my best friends sisters lived there. I started hanging out with her and I met people through her. like I'm just really ready to like bring that energy to LA and just like say yes to everything. Acquaintances go out and just experience the city. I really have become come to love it there.

So I'm really excited to grow my friend circle. I have never driven there. I don't even think ever. Maybe a little bit. Definitely a little bit, but not like driven around. Like I've never rented a car for the duration of the time I've been there. You know, we've walked. We're like these crazy walkers in L.A. People don't walk as much. And then we've like done Ubers and stuff like that. But I bet we have a cars for the three months that we're there or longer and I'm excited to like you said really be able to settle in and feel like we live there and it's like it's home and I mean this isn't a hot take but there's a tremendous ethnic food culture there so Thai town Korea town there's great Vietnamese food great Mexican like there's so many immigrant cultures there and healthy I'm so excited to just explore it like get my car and just drive

all these places I know anyway so that of course grow our business we've some really exciting things coming in 2023 I'm excited to do this whole tour and I just want to continue to, like, feel healthy, emotionally and physically. And I don't know. I guess that's not like a great goal list, but I have a really great. 20, 22. And I'm excited to continue it. And as we said last week.

Just keep it rolling. I just, yeah, I feel like I'm, that's enough. I'm excited to keep it rolling. I mean, I, you know, I want to keep being a better friend and a better daughter, sister, business partner, all the things than I already am. And that's it. I'm excited to live in my little beach house. Okay.

Two quick wrecks. One minute tops. I'm going to tell you both of these. Firefly Lane season two is out. Okay. I love that show. I loved the first one. This second one's emotional as well.

And there is going to be a third. The way they leave you hanging, oh my God. And then I started Welcome to Chippendales. Oh, right. Oh my God. Raina. I love it so much.

This is on Hulu and it's about the start of the Chippendales and Kumail. Nana Johnny. Yeah. I'm a man. I don't, I don't know. I'm a bird's in it. Big main character is also the

the hotel manager from White Lotus season one. And it is about the start of Chippendales and how this man who was an immigrant started it. And it's like drama, a crime, murder, naked men, or stripping, you know, sex. It's all the things. And I'm just so into it. And so it's like we have male strippers for our shows. So there's this like line of the way that women are and how they want that type of entertainment. So it feels close to it.

Yeah. But it's also there's a lot of drama and there's like a crime. mask back. Can't recommend it enough. Oh my gosh. I'm laughing so hard because you're such a magic Mike stand. So of course you love this. Of course you got right on the train. Magic Mike three is coming out and you have not seen Magic Mike and it is a huge issue. I just found this out. I just I didn't, I've never mentioned it before. I never thought about it. I didn't know. I didn't know I had seen it. Just a few weeks ago. I freaked out that Magic Mike three is coming out and Raina admitted she hasn't seen any of that. Magic Mike two.

Take it or leave it. Magic Mike one. Oh my God. I mean, I think 20 of us went to the theater together, all juiced up. And we had like a girl's dinner and went. Anna, have you seen this movie? No. Anna hasn't. But she's a different generation than us. Whatever.

I am also a huge channel. I'm committed to watching it. I'm committed to doing it. New goal. I also have a new goal. I'm inserting a goal also. What? That's it?

The goal is to see Magic Mike. I'm all set on goals. I'm saying you're, you have to see Magic Mike one in 2020. I didn't even bring up dating as a goal. It's like, I don't, men are so insignificant in my life. It is, I guess, a goal. I want to date in L.A.

I do. I feel like this year was about sex and not a lot of it. So, 2023, I want to be about really meaningful relationships and sex. And I just like, I don't care if I get a boyfriend, but I want like at least like a bunch of them. Ooh, it's Ashley's boyfriend year.

Right? It's just going to get a lot of dick. Yeah, I just want to get a lot of day. You're going to watch Magic Mine and get all gassed up to go get some dick. A lot of the people, I've slept with him last year are from L.A. or live in L.A. currently.

Yes. And I'm not sleeping with any of those people. I also, I'm not sleeping with any of those people. I've resolved not to do it. They're in the trash and they're staying in the trash. No, we're picking one out of the trash. Rana? Yes.

Okay, listen, he deserves it. He's fine. He's fine. Not the other one. In terms of Rex, I'm watching the Hills again. Okay. So you guys know, I won't put you through this again because I already did a recap of the hills.

I feel like you're just trolling me at this point. Ashley was like you got to watch Lugna Beach. We talked about it a lot. And what I did was watch things. Like I feel like people think I roast you more publicly, but you just do these slights all the time. That was uncalled for. When it comes to TV, it's offensive.

You stay insulting me. I stay above the high school age range, okay? And you won't go above it. That is... The magic. Mike, they are not in high school. And neither are the Chippendales. It's high school content.

If it's not about high schoolers or male strippers, I don't want it. They're too young for me. This is uncalled for. Uncalled for is a joke as of this morning. We don't have time. We'll get into next week. We're going to all the time in the world. But I've been watching that.

Also, I watched Harry Megan. I don't care. I don't care so little. And you know what? But I never really cared that much about them. So I'm not surprised. It just doesn't interest me. Somebody brought this thing up to me last night,

so it's not my original thought. I just want to give credit. They said that they, like, wanted to do this because they were like, all these people are like telling our story. They're making money off our story. They're like writing books, and we want to tell our story. And then I was like, I was watching it. I was like, why have I heard all this before?

Oh, yeah, you guys already told your story, the Oprah interview, everybody watched. So far for me, it's not a ton of new news. I mean, there's six episodes, and I feel as though it could have been, I mean, most things, it could have been distilled into four. 45 minutes. I mean, they're really digging. I support what they're doing. I support them being

like, we're going to make the money and we're going to share the story for the people that want it. Yeah. And I'm sure they got a huge check on that. And same with her and her podcast. I support all of it. I love what they're doing. I love that they're taking their life back into their own hands. And absolutely, if other people are making money on your story. I mean, that's what's sad about Brittany. All the people that have really exploited her story and made a living off of it and she hasn't. So I'm in support of it. I just don't care about it. I don't care.

But I've never cared about the royal family. They're the people I care about the most. But I think you're right. Like the story is fascinating to me, but I can just know the story and that's enough. I don't need to watch a six part. It might be eight. Documentary or whatever.

I don't know. You can skip it. People are saying she's like whiny. I don't feel like that. I feel like all these things really happened. I don't think that she's like digging. People can't criticize her enough. It's pretty gross.

Do it privately. Come on. I don't care. I mean, she's just telling a story. These things did happen. And there's like, there's facts and evidence of all of this. So I don't think she'd be wanting. I just don't care that much.

I don't care. Anyway, so that's it. We have an incredible episode today. An incredible two-hour episode. Okay. Let's get into it. Yes. All right, guys, we are really excited to welcome our very first guest of 2023.

He writes about the science of habit formation, behavioral change, and continuous improvement. He is the author of the number one New York Times bestselling atomic habits. The book has sold over 9 million copies worldwide. It has been translated into more. than 50 languages and has spent 20 weeks on the Amazon's top 20 books. Often is number one. He is the creator of the popular

321 weekly newsletter with over 2 million subscribers and has been featured in time. Entrepreneur Forbes, so many more. Please welcome to the show, James Clear. Hey, thanks for having me. It's great to talk to you. Raina, you really went off. It's because Raina loves a bald man. I don't know who you knew that, but the second

you popped into the Zoom, I was like, this is going to be a good day for how she likes to start her day. I immediately Googled is he married and got that out of the way. It's a great start. Sorry, we won't make it weird. I will. I googled James Clear.

Most people immediately go to book. I went to wife. So congrats to her. Okay, we're sorry. Hi, James. Thanks for joining. Oh, I'm so happy to be here. Great.

So your book is phenomenal. It's sold all over the world. It is really one of the number one books in the world. So it seems really timely to talk about habits because it's the new year, resolutions, things like that. So tell us about yourself and how you got into this, why this is your background and your passion. Sure. Everybody's building habits. You know, like we're all, whether you're thinking about it or not, your body's building them. And so my first exposure to it, I didn't have like a language for it or a way to describe it. But I was an athlete. And so I played baseball through college. And, you know, athletes are building. all kinds of habits when they're practicing or in the gym or whatever. So I was kind of practicing it there. And then I suffered this serious injury, which I kind of kicked the book off with and talk about a little bit more where I was hit in the face of the baseball bat. And it was an accident. The injury was this very long process. I couldn't drive a car for nine months. I was practicing basic motor patterns like walking in a straight line when I was at physical therapy. And so it was a time in my life, maybe the first time in my life, when I was forced to, you know, to start really small. Like, I couldn't just flip a switch and go back to where I was before.

I had to make a little bit of incremental progress each day at physical therapy and then eventually once I started playing again and so on. And I didn't have a way to describe it at the time. Like, I never would have said stuff that, you know, like is in my book now. I wouldn't have said like, oh, I'm just trying to get one percent better each day. But I was forced to do those things. And so I think a couple years later, when I started writing and researching and talking about these topics a little bit more. I had that experience to fall back on. And now I've got more of a language or a way to describe what was going on at the time. So that was kind of my first introduction into continuous improvement and making small steps and trying to get a little bit better each day.

And then as time has gone on, I've had more stories and examples and research and so on to share about the topic. Okay. Wow. So you wrote this book about breaking bad habits, creating better ones. So I think my like primary number one question is like, Why do bad habits form in general? Because I think that there's, we all have this laundry list of behaviors. We know that are bad for us. We asked our audience and we'll get into some of these things. You know, what are things you wish you didn't do?

So overeating, skipping exercising, staying up all night, scrolling on the phone constantly. And we can get into those. But we all know so many of these things are bad for us and making different decisions would be good for us, but we don't. So let's talk about why. It's a good question. And I think there's a lot we can learn from habits just by kind of unraveling this question a little bit more. So the first thing is, we perform behaviors because they benefit us in some

way. They solve some problem for you. And this is the role that habits play in your life, which is they solve the problems that you repeatedly face. So if you come home from work, and let's say it's like 530 or 6 p.m. each night, and you feel stressed and exhausted, that's a problem in a sense that your brain is trying to solve or figure out a solution to each day. And you can imagine different solutions to that problem. You know, like one person might relax by going for a run for 30 minutes. Another person might reduce stress by smoking a cigarette or a third person might reduce it by playing video games or scrolling on Instagram. And all of these solutions are trying to solve that same kind of basic underlying problem. But once you figure out a solution or stumble into a

solution, because you don't try every possible thing. Most people are not trying all four of those things. you kind of like stumble into one of them and then you're like, oh, this kind of works for me. And you aren't even really thinking about it consciously. It's just solving the problem that you're facing. And eventually you start to get in this pattern, a little bit of a rut. And then before you know it, like every day when you come home at 6,

you sit there and scroll on Instagram for 30 minutes just to kind of reduce the stress of the day or to, you know, like go mindless for a little bit. And so at some core level, they're solving problems. If it's solving a problem, sometimes academics or researchers get a little pedantic about it. And they're like, well, there is no bad habit because they all, you know, they're serving you in some way. But I think we all kind of know what we're talking about when we're talking about

the difference between good and bad habits. And one way that I like to define it is that pretty much every behavior in life produces multiple outcomes across time. So broadly speaking, there's like an immediate outcome and there's an ultimate outcome. The immediate outcome of a lot of your bad habits is pretty favorable. Like the immediate outcome of eating a donut is great. It's sweet. It's sugary, it's tasty, it's enjoyable. It's only like keep eating donuts for a year or two or three that you get to the unfavorable outcome. Or like even smoking a cigarette, which is kind of the classic example of a bad habit, the immediate outcome of smoking might be that you socialize with friends outside the office or you reduce stress on the way home from work or you curb

your nicotine craving. It's only the ultimate outcome like 10 years later that's unfavorable. And so with your bad habits, the cost of your bad habits is in the future. with your good habits is the opposite. The cost of your good habits is in the present. So like the immediate outcome of going to the gym is you sweat, you feel tired and sore, you're worried like, do I look stupid doing this exercise?

Do, you know, are people wondering like why I'm here? I don't feel like comfortable. After like a week, you're like, oh, my body's sore.

You know, I don't have anything to show for it yet. It's only a year or two or three years later that you get the outcome that you wanted and you kind of have this new body or you feel more fit or you can perform at a higher level or whatever. whatever. And so that difference between behaviors that pay off in the immediate term and behaviors that pay off in the long term, I think that describes a lot of why bad habits are easy to slide into and good habits are maybe a little bit more difficult. And a lot of what I write about in atomic

habits is trying to invert that equation, trying to find ways to make good habits easy and convenient and rewarding in the present moment so that you're more likely to want them do them. And to make bad habits, higher friction or difficult or unsatisfying in the present so that you're less likely to jump for them. As you're speaking, so we're primarily a dating relationship to podcast. And of course, this is more about habits. We'll talk about the things you spoke about. But I'm immediately thinking about when you fire off that text to your ex and it just like feels so good. And like, maybe they come over and you have sex and the immediate dopamine hit of like how good that feels is so nice. But like long term, you hate yourself and you're mad at yourself. And so that's sort of like

what I relate this to. Well, I was just thinking that like, I almost, maybe I've just figured it out over the years, but like the donut does make me feel pretty bad immediately after my time I got sick. We had to go get those donuts and then I walked home and I was like almost. I was like in my body, like not shameful, but just like actually sick. I like went too hard. I'd had this craving and I fulfilled it and within like what minutes. And then for me, I'm like the second after I work out like is the best feeling I have of the day, you know, when the endorphins are high and you just feel like you accomplish something. So I think you're right, obviously, but there is something to be said, too, for finding the things that are positive that do make you feel good in the moment.

And, you know, even things like for me, it's like my problem is scrolling and wasting time and going to bed too late. And so even one night of like going to bed earlier, waking up earlier, not have wasted hours in my life on social media feels good. These are great examples. And I think they speak to an important part of the process. of changing habits, which is finding something different about the process to measure or to focus on. So I was talking to a health and nutrition podcast a few weeks ago. And these guys are coaches who work with clients all day long. And they were talking about how all anybody ever talks about is how food tastes. And that's the whole thing that is focused on when people are

trying to stick to a new diet or do something new. It's like, oh, this food tastes good, this food tastes bad, or I don't like that or whatever. And they try to encourage their clients to find a different part of the experience to focus on. Kind of similar to what you're just mentioning. You're like, okay, rather than how makes you feel? Yeah, how do you feel five minutes later? Oh, yeah. We talk about this a lot.

I've noticed for me, like if I eat higher protein on a given day, I actually feel less hungry throughout the day. So there's just, there are different things to focus on throughout the experience. And you can say this for anything, for relationships, for finances, for health and fitness. And maybe it's just encouraging yourself to find a new part of the experience to measure or to observe. and if you can find the part that feels enjoyable,

if you can find the part that feels rewarding, then maybe it becomes easier to do the good habit and less likely that you'll slide into the bad one. Yeah. You wrote this thing down, I was talking to my brother ahead of time, he sort of floated the same idea to me, but you wrote it more eloquently.

You wrote this thing that if the winners and the losers have the same goal, then the goal cannot be the thing that distinguishes the two. And I was talking to my brother about how, you know, we all sort of have the same goals in life. You know, everybody wants to be successful. Everybody wants to make money or have a great relationship or feel physically really good.

But a lot of us can't accomplish it or get there. But a lot of us have the same goals. So in terms of like, what differentiates those people? Well, yeah. And I think your quote is, I mean, I have that pulled up on my phone. Of course, this popular reading of yours forget about setting goals. And someone hears that immediately. And they're like, what?

That goes against everything I've ever heard. So we want you to break it down for us. Well, so first of all, this is coming from someone who, like, is very goal-oriented. You know, I've said all kinds of goals. for, you know, weights I wanted to lift in the gym or grades I wanted to get in school or money that I wanted to make in my business, like all kinds of stuff, you know? And in many ways, everything that we talk about today and everything that I write about in atomic habits and on

my website and whatnot is just a reminder to myself, you know, like, have I procrastinated? Yeah, sure. And that's why I like write about the stuff to try to remind myself to do something different. Or do I focus too much on the goal and not enough on the system? Yeah, of course. And so I'm trying to remind myself to maybe be a little bit more dedicated to the process. But the point that you're both getting to, which I think is what I consider to be one of the central ideas of atomic habits, is you don't rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems. And so so often in life, we are told you need to set bigger goals for yourself, be more ambitious, you need to want it more, have this clear vision. But as you just mentioned, the winners and the losers in many different domains often have the same goals.

You know, like presumably every athlete at the Olympic Games wants to win the gold medal. They all have the same goal. But the goal is not the thing that determines the outcome. It's strategy and training for the event, how much sleep they got the night before, coaching, genetic ability and talent, like all kinds of factors. And I think if I was going to just define this a little bit more through the lens of habits, what I would say is your goal is your desired outcome. It's like the target, the thing that you hope to achieve. what is your system? It's the collection of daily habits that you follow.

And if there's ever a gap between your goal and your system, if there's ever a gap between your desired outcome and your daily habits, your daily habits will always win. You know, like almost by definition, your current habits are perfectly designed to deliver your current results. So whatever system you've been running, whatever collection of habits you've been following for the last six months or year or two years,

carried you almost inevitably to the outcomes that you have right now. You know, like in many ways, the outcomes that we have in life are largely a product of the habits that precede them. So your knowledge is a lagging measure of your reading and learning habits or your bank account is a lagging measure of your financial habits. Even silly stuff, like the amount of clutter in your living room is a lagging measure of your cleaning habits. You know, like all of these things are tied to the system that is happening before them,

to the habits that are being repeated. And so it's kind of one of these ironic things about life. You know, we also badly want better results. We also badly want a better relationship or more money or to be fit or reduce stress. But the results are not actually the thing that needs to change. It's like fix the inputs and the outputs will fix themselves. Adjust the habits and you'll be carried to this different destination automatically. Now, the last thing I'll say about this is that habits are not the only thing that influence outcomes in life.

You know, like there are, there's luck and randomness, there's misfortune. But by definition, luck and randomness are not under your control and your habits are. And the only like reasonable, rational approach in life is to focus on the elements of the situation that are within your control. So, you know, I don't know nearly as much as you guys do about relationships. I don't run a relationship podcast. But is luck involved in meeting someone? Is luck involved in developing a great relationship?

Of course. but you don't control that part. And so we have to shift our focus to the habits and systems and processes that we do control and try to focus on those elements. And if we do those as well as we can, then maybe you increase the odds that you're going to get lucky at some point. And I think that same philosophy and approach can be applied to pretty much any area of life. Does luck influence your health? Yeah, of course.

Like people break their arms or, you know, like getting a car accident. Like there's all kinds of things that you can't control. But if you focus on habits and getting in the gym and doing your thing and trying to live a healthy lifestyle, you put yourself in a better position to have a healthy life ahead of you. And so it doesn't guarantee results, but it does improve the odds. Where does just raw talent fall in here? It's certainly a part of it. I think there's some people that don't have to try as hard. Yeah, for sure. You know, like there are things like that in every area of life. You know, there's talent and genetic ability and there are the cards that you're dealt and then there's how you play them. And I think that

I have a chapter later in the book about it's like the truth about talent, genetics and how it influences habits and behavior and so on. And I think people take the wrong lesson away from it. A lot of the time, not the chapter, but just the discussion about like talent and genetic ability. Because a lot of the time when genes get brought up, people are like, well, there's nothing I can do. It's already written in stone like it's destiny, you know, and so it's fix. So why try? But I don't think that like genes and talent and genetic ability tell you not. To try, they just tell you where to try. You know, like knowing yourself better, knowing what your strengths and weaknesses are

can inform your strategy. And so I think the more self-aware you are, the more you realize, hey, this is something that like I'm good at or this is a strength of mine. And this is something that I'm not as good at or it's a weakness. You can start to come up with a plan for that. You know, like one of the lines that I have in the book is boiling water will soften a potato, but it'll harden an egg. And you can't control.

whether you're a potato or an egg, but you do get to choose whether you play a game where it's better to be hard or soft. And so it's really just about trying to play a game that like suits your strengths rather than wishing that you were a potato when you're actually an egg. I just love this conversation about goals versus habits and just your daily life. We've been having a lot of meetings lately where it's been a lot of like, what are the goals? And Ray and I say we like to think about what we want our life to look like and feel like day to day, as opposed to like this is what the big thing we see in five years. Like we will get there, but I can't accomplish my goals if I am overwhelmed or unhappy or unable to take time for myself and be creative and do these things

that, you know, self-care for lack of a better word. You know, so we think about that a lot. And I think that's why we work so well together. We have kind of the same mindset when it comes to that. I think it's a fantastic lens. One of the questions I try to ask myself running my own business is, what do I want my days to look like? Exactly. That's exactly what we say.

That's our goal. And then from there, you can come up with all sorts of options for ways to improve or what to focus on. But it really does shift your priorities. Like there are some things that you two could spend your time on that would be very ambitious and could be like really successful business-wise. But if it doesn't fit your goals well, if it doesn't fit the way you want to live your days, it's not actually a good idea for you. And this is, I think, a little insight that I've started to come across or see a little bit

more clearly over the last year or two, which is execution is a big part of determining whether something is a good fit for you or not. It might be like one of the most important pieces. It could be a really grand, ambitious goal. It could be an awesome idea. But if you don't want to execute on it, if it doesn't match up with how you want to live your days, it's not a good idea for you. And so that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. It just means that it doesn't fit, you know,

you have like multiple filters that you need to go through and it doesn't pass that one. So I think that your approach is great and admirable in many ways. Thank you. We talk about money a lot too. And of course, you know, I do think money makes people happy.

You'd be crazy to say it doesn't. Makes it easier. It makes you a lot easier. You can buy a lot of things that bring you a lot of joy. But I think once your basic needs are met and exceeded, then you have to have. to start making decisions for how is this going to make me happy. I mean, you hear people all the time, like, lead finance to become chefs.

And, you know, take a pay cut. They want to be even a bigger fuck boy. The only bigger fuck boys and finance guys are chefs. Low key. Just letting you know, James. I'll be on the lookout. Somebody who's fucked her fair share of restaurant workers. I know.

But so many people that I know have left the finance game, taking a 75% pay cut to work in the restaurant industry. we do think about quality of life a lot and talk about that. And I think that you can have goals to make all this money, but that's not going to necessarily make you happy. The thing that you made me think with that is, why would you make more money to live a worse daily life? Thank you. Go off. But it's shocking how many people choose that, you know? It's like kind of unbelievable how often people will say, oh, of course I should take the promotion. Yeah, it'll be more hours. Yeah, it'll be a lot more stress and responsibility, but of course I should take it because I'll make more money.

But if you hate the lifestyle, then that's a bad trade, you know, assuming, as you mentioned, that your daily needs are met. Yes. And, you know, that you're already at that level. But it still is remarkable how often relatively wealthy people in the sense that their daily needs are met and they don't necessarily want for anything will still continue to make choices that will bring them more money but actually make their daily lives worse. Yes. And also not create any changed in the world? I mean, how do people make all this money? They don't contribute to the world in any way. Okay. I mean, it's a whole thing of like self-worth and value is wrapped up in this number to tie to their bank account. The pull of status is very strong. And this actually

connects to habits in a really deep way too, which is a lot of the time, not just with money, but also with other habits. Health and fitness is a really good example. People do things or decide to make goals, set goals for themselves or build habits for themselves that they kind of feel like they should do, you know, they feel like, oh, society is telling me I should go to the gym and work out, so I should, or my parents want me to do a certain thing, so I will, or my peers are expecting this, and so I decide to build this habit. But it's important to ask yourself, like, what habits do I actually want to build? You know, like, what feels like a good fit to me? And there's not always a thousand ways to do something in life, but there's usually more than one way,

and you should choose the version of a habit that is the best fit for you. So I like, going to the gym, but not everybody wants to train like a bodybuilder. You know, like maybe you want to go kayaking or rock climbing or ride a bike or whatever. There's like a million ways to live an active lifestyle. And you should choose the version of that that brings you the most joy and excitement and that you're engaged in. Because kind of in a lot of ways, the biggest hurdle to clear, the most enormous like step in the beginning is to find what you are genuinely interested in.

If you're genuinely interested in it, there will be endless opportunities to improve. you'll be noticing all kinds of things that you could do better, just diving into the details. If you're not interested and it feels like a chore, then even the obvious improvements are going to feel like a hassle. And so being actively engaged, being curious and interested in your habits, and choosing the version that makes you the most interested and excited or that is the most attractive and appealing to you, that's a really important part of the process. And it can be everything from finance and career and big life choices all the way down to, little stuff like what kind of workout do I want to do today? Yeah, I do want to talk about forming new habits, but I mean, that's how I feel about working out. I never worked out a day of my life. I hated it. I never enjoyed working out. And when I found the type of workout I liked,

I felt like I was like more a part of a community. Like I can talk to my friends about it. It's like opened up this whole world of things I could connect with people on. We had this whole talk about at Thanksgiving, like which instructors everybody likes. And I was excluded from those type of conversations my whole life because I didn't like any type of workout. So picking something that was fun for me and could create more of a community has helped me to like stick to the habit. Well, and I mean, it's with anything, like I'm a stand-up comedian also. And it's like, I always say, if someone tells you there's a specific way you have to do comedy, get into comedy, write jokes, perform, they're wrong. You know, like everyone has their own process and no two people are exactly the

same. And so I always, when people ask me for advice on comedy, I'm like, you have to find what works for you. There's so crazy, successful comedians that do not sit down and write jokes. for an hour to three hours a day. And there's people to do, and that works for them. And I get, you know, frustrated when people act like there's this end-all be-all one specific way to do a thing and achieve success in any area. So again, this applies really well to habits. You know, there is no one way to build better habits. There are many ways. And I sort of view atomic habits and like a lot of the talking and discussing that I do about this topic, it's just like laying all the tools out on the table. And my job is to be like, here's a wrench and here's a hammer and here's a screwdriver.

And your job is to say, you know what? For my situation and for what I want to do, I feel like a wrench is a better fit or I feel like the hammer's the right fit. And so if you have a bigger tool set, then you're probably in a better position to make some of those changes to build some of those habits. And so you don't want to have a minimal amount of tools. But there is no like here's the only way to do it. Also, I feel like what you're describing in this process of trying different things or trying to find your own way, find your own path. it speaks to a really important mindset that you need to have, not just for building habits,

but probably for succeeding in life, which is a willingness to self-experiment, a willingness to try things. You can sit down and read atomic habits and you can find out all the tools, but if you're not willing to experiment a little bit, if you're not willing to try it on your own, it's going to be very hard to get results.

And so you have to at least be open to trying things, and some of those things are not going to work. That's just part of what it means to experiment. But if you have a willingness to do it, then you're in a much better position to get results in the long run. Yeah. And also, I don't know if you know this, but I watched a video of yours. And one of the examples you used was stand-up comedy specifically.

And talking about joke writing and practicing. You don't just go out and do a special. And so, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But let's talk about the stages of habit formation. I like this like four laws, four steps, four more. Like, we love number lists. Our audience does. Basically, if you just want to think about like,

what's going on behind the scenes when you build a habit, there are kind of these four different things. that you're going through, there's a queue, so there's something that prompts the behavior. Like you walk into the kitchen, you see a plate of cookies on the counter. That's a visual cue. That starts the habit of eating a cookie. So the cue gets your attention. Another example might be your phone buzzes in your pocket.

So that's like a physical cue that starts the habit of checking your phone. Then your brain makes a prediction about what's going on. So you see the plate of cookies, visual cue. Your brain predicts, hey, that'll be sweet, sugary, tasty, enjoyable. And so it's actually that favorable meaning that you assigns. to a cookie, your expectation that it'll be good, that gives you this desire or this craving to walk over, pick it up, and take a bite. So that's the third step, which is the actual habit that you perform. And then the fourth piece is there's this reward. Oh, it is in fact, sweet, sugary, tasty,

enjoyable. Now, not every behavior in life is rewarding, right? Like sometimes things have a cost or a consequence. Sometimes they're just sort of neutral and they don't really mean a whole lot. But if a behavior is not rewarding, it's hard for it to become a habit. You need some kind of reason to mark the experience and to be like, hey, let's repeat this again in the future. So really what I'm describing with those four steps is kind of the process of learning. It's sort of like a feedback loop, cue, craving response reward, cue, craving response reward. And the more that you go through life and experiences are preceded by a reliable cue and followed by some enjoyable reward, the tighter that loop becomes, and the more that the habit kind of

it becomes automatic. All right. So that's sort of the kind of like boring scientific discussion of like what's happening. Now, what I like to do is operationalize this. How do I turn this into something actionable? How do I make this something I can use in my daily life and work? And that's where the four laws of behavior change come in. So there's one for each step. The first laws to make it obvious. So you want the cues your habits to be obvious, available, visible, easy to see. The second law is to make it attractive, more attractive or appealing a habit is, the more motivating or enticing it is, the more likely you are to perform the behavior.

The third law is to make it easy, the easier, more convenient, frictionless, simple a habit is, the more likely it is to be performed. And then the fourth and final law is to make it satisfying. Again, more satisfying or enjoyable a habit is, more likely it is to be repeated. So, just as a quick recap here,

if you're sitting there and you're thinking like, man, you know, I keep procrastinating on this habit, I'm just not sticking to it, or I'm having trouble getting started, or if you're like, you know, I have this thing that I like, I do it every now and then, or I do it for a week and then I fall off again. You can just go through these four laws and ask yourself, how can I make the behavior more obvious? How can I make it more attractive? How can I make it easier? How can I make it more

satisfying? And the answers to those questions will reveal different steps that you can take to increase the odds that you'll stick to a good habit. You don't always need all four, but the more that your habits are obvious, attractive, easy, and satisfying, the more likely it is you're going to be able to stick to it. Wow, for sure. Okay. I have a question for you. I think sometimes people get overwhelmed with the concept of a habit and that it's like daily, repeated, you know, and then you beat yourself up if you miss a day or whatever we're talking about, you know? And so what I have found that works for me personally is sometimes just like, even doing it sometimes is better than none. You know, I wonder, I feel like people get in this mindset of like they're, if they're

dieting, for example. And they ruin it once. They just go down this rabbit hole, like, you know, bingeing and just like, well, it's over. And I saw this meme recently that was like the way someone thinks about their day is in four quarters, like a game of some sort. And like, you know, you always can have a comeback in the fourth quarter. Like, it's never too late to turn things around. And so I think I have healthy habits, but I'm not a super rigid person. Like, if I'm talking about, I don't know, like an example of like athletic greens. You know, for example, like, yeah, yeah, they want you to take it every day. Sometimes I'm just like three times a week is better than none, you know, instead of getting bogged down and the like, how am I going to do this every day?

Do you agree that sometimes it's better just to do it enough for you? No, how many of us should have exercised, are like killing it exercising, you miss one day, you miss two days. And then you're just like, fuck it, I don't exercise anymore. And I feel like you used to be more like that. I used to be like that all the time. She'd miss a day and then she'd skip three weeks because she's like, well, I fucked my streak up. So, like, I have had to work on myself of being like, don't get intimidated by this has to be so consistent. For sure.

So I don't know why we do this, but we do get very all or nothing with our habits. Right. You know, we're so focused on finding the best workout program or the ideal diet plan or the perfect sales strategy that we're like, if I can't do it this way, if I can't do it seven days a week or do it exactly how it's supposed to be done, then maybe I should just not do it at all. And yeah, of course, there is always better to have a one than a zero. You know, even if you were hoping to get to 10, like, it's better to have a one and not throw up a zero that day. And one of the strategies that I mentioned in the book, which kind of applies here is what I call the two-minute rule.

And so it's very simple. It just says, take whatever habit you're trying to build and you scale it down to something it takes two minutes or less to do. So read 30 books a year becomes read one page. Or do yoga four days a week becomes take out my yoga. mat. And sometimes people resist it a little bit because they're like, okay, you know, I know the real goal isn't to take the yoga mat out and know I'm actually trying to do the workout. And I get where people are coming from, but I have this reader, his name's Mitch, and he lost over 100 pounds and kept

it off for more than a decade now. And when he first started going to the gym, he had this strange little rule for himself where he wasn't allowed to stay for longer than five minutes. So he'd get in the car, drive to the gym, get out, do like half an exercise, and then get back in the car and drive home. and you're like, this is ridiculous. You know, like, clearly this is not going to help the guy. But I think this is a deeper truth about habits, which is a habit must be established before it can be improved. You know, it has to become the standard in your life

before you can scale it up and turn it into something more. So starting small actually counts for a lot. And you can think about this problem that you've raised in two different ways. You can think about it. At first, there's like the scope problem. So it's like, man, I wanted to work out for 45 minutes. but I only have 15 today, so screw it. I'm just not going to do it at all.

And my little phrase I try to keep in mind is like, reduce the scope, but stick to the schedule. So like, yeah, maybe you can't do the full workout that you wanted, but you could still do five pushups or you could still like run around the block even though you don't have time to run three miles. And that seems like nothing. It seems like this is not enough to make a difference. So why would I do it?

But it maintains the habit. And if you maintain the habit, if you keep reinforcing being that kind of person and you can look at yourself in the mirror at the end of the night and be like, you know what? The circumstances were an ideal today. Like it was kind of a rough day, but I still showed up and did a little bit. That starts to count for a lot in the long run. So the first thing is the scope on any given day. And then the second thing is the streak over time. You know, you're like, oh, I've done this for seven or eight or nine days. And then on the 10th day, you break the habit. And I think we all like know this at some level.

we all have experienced this at some level, which is it's never the first mistake that ruins you. It's like letting slipping up become a new habit. That's the real problem. It's like the spiral of repeated mistakes. And so if you can get back on track quickly, if you can course correct quickly and reclaim the good habit, then the mistakes don't matter that much at the end of the year.

And you see this a lot with top performers and kind of any industry, really. They're human like everybody else. They make mistakes like everybody else. but they get back on track pretty quickly. And so the mantra that I like to keep in mind for that, like, piece of the problem is never miss twice. So, you know, if I stick to a new diet for seven or eight or nine days and then on the 10th day, I binge eat a pizza, well, I wish I hadn't done that, but never missed twice.

So let's make sure the next meal is a healthy one, you know? Or like, in my case, the habit that kind of launched my career was I wrote a new article every Monday and Thursday. And I did that for three years. well, if I missed on Monday, I wish that hadn't happened, but never missed twice. So let's make sure I get one out on Thursday. Yeah. And, you know, you get to the end of the year and those mistakes are just kind of a little blip on the radar.

But that's only true if you kind of buy into that. So I think reduce the scope, but stick to the schedule and never miss twice. Those are maybe two good things to kind of hold in your mind whenever you find yourself facing that challenge of being like, why bother? I don't have enough time. Or I just messed up and broke the streak. so forget it. And maybe that gets you back on track quickly. I love that so much. And you mentioned yoga. And that's how I think about yoga too. Like I can't do an hour sometimes. But if I even do 10 minutes,

which I feel like even two years ago, I'd be like, that's so stupid. 10 minutes. What's not going to do? And now I'm like, I do it when like the water's boiling for my dinner. You know, and I just like roll the mat and do a quick flow. And I feel so much better. And so I just love this conversation because I think people, things feel so insurmountable. It's remarkable what you can do with five good minutes. You know, five good minutes can get you like sweating for a workout. It can make you feel better about yourself. If you haven't written jokes forever and you feel like, oh, my comedy career is never going to happen. Like, great, five minutes of that can like reset your mood and make you feel like, oh, okay, I'm making progress again. It happens for me all the time writing a book manuscript. I'll sit here

and like wallow in my guilt and feel bad about not working on the book. And then all you need is like 10 minutes. They're like, okay, the manuscript is like moving forward again. And that's enough. to kind of like reset the scales and get your, you know, get your attitude and momentum going again in the new direction. So a little bit can count for a lot. And I think we probably should talk about this at some point. Maybe it's on your guys list of things that you want to discuss, but this is a perfect time note to weave it in, which is habits influence your identity. And I think that's the real reason that some of this small stuff doing reducing the scope, it's sitting to the schedule. That's the real reason this stuff matters. You know, like,

ultimately, we often talk about habits as mattering. because of the external results they'll get us, hey, they'll help you lose weight or be more productive or, you know, make more money. And that's true. Habits can help you do those things, and that's great. But the real reason that habits matter is that every action you take is a vote

for the type of person you wish to become. And so, no, doing 10 minutes of yoga while the water is boiling does not transform your body, but it does cast a vote for, I'm the type of person who doesn't miss workouts. And no, it does, you know, writing for five minutes does not, finish my book manuscript, but it does cast a vote for I'm a writer. And individually, those are

small things, but collectively you start to build up this body of evidence. You start to cast votes on the pile and you kind of shift the story that you have about who you are and what you stand for. And once a habit becomes part of your identity, once it becomes part of something that you like take pride in in this aspect of yourself, it's much easier to stick to. You know, like, if you take pride in the size of your biceps, you never skip arm day at the gym. or if you take pride in how your hair looks, you have this long, complicated hair care routine, and you do it every day.

And like, we wish that we have that kind of consistency with a lot of other habits that we have, but we do it because we have this aspect of pride associated with it, or it's part of our story about who we are and what our identity is. And so I think that's ultimately where we're trying to get to with most of our good habits, is how do I integrate this into my story?

How do I have habits that reinforce my desired identity? And once you get to that point, you're not even really pursuing behavior change anymore. You're just acting in alignment with the type of person that you see yourself to be. Yeah. And so that I think is the ultimate benefit that happens to provide. I like this reframing of this so much and I feel fired up about it and not to keep bringing it back to exercise. But like for me, yes, exercise, the long-term goal is, of course, I get to maintain a certain weight and eat what I want. But I'm somebody who has suffered from like body image issues and food issues my whole life.

And so becoming somebody who works out and works on their body has reframed it for me. And it's just like, now I know I am doing something good for my body. And I do have these habits that are going to be good for me. And I set really small goals that are easy to sort of achieve. I put my workout bike in the living room next to my window so I can look at the window. It's in a favorable place. And I do tell myself, you only have to do half of this workout if you don't want to. You can quit after 10 minutes if you really want to.

But it helps me to feel better about my body, not because I maintain a weight, but like I know I'm doing something good for it, if that makes sense. All four things that you just mentioned there. The description you just went through, you hit all four of the major laws that we talked about. So you put the bike in the living room, so that's make it obvious. You put the bike next to the window so that you have like a view that you enjoy or that it's more attractive for you. So that's make it attractive. You said, I only have to do 10 minutes if I want to.

I don't have to do half of this. I don't have to do the whole thing. So that's make it easy. And then you just talked about how you feel about yourself, how it feels better to be that kind of person. And so that's make it satisfying, make it rewarding. And so all four of those forces are working for you in that current setup. And it's like, yeah, of course, you're going to be more likely to stick to that behavior when you have all this kind of positive forces helping you out.

And I think that's the type of thinking that we need to apply to whatever habit that you're interested in building, whatever it happens to be, how can you make it obvious and attractive and easy and satisfying? And you'll probably find yourself in a better position to fall through in the long run and hopefully reinforce that desired identity that you're ultimately hoping to achieve. I love to just make it attractive thing in general. Like, you got to set a vibe for all this stuff.

Like, it's really just like, it should be enjoyable. You know, again, we talked about previously with like, choose the version of the habit that, you know,

is exciting to you or is motivating to you. Like, you know, attractive often means beauty. And like, I think, like, having things that are beautiful or things that are enjoyable or

attractive. Yeah, that's a big part of it. But it also can mean that it's enticing to you, that it's appealing to you. And so what is the version of this that is most enticing? What is the version that is most exciting? And the more that you can frame your habits in that way or design them in that way, obviously, the more naturally motivated you'll feel to fall through on it.

Okay. So like I think that we're all, you know, this is January. Everyone's in like resolution mode. And we're all about to work out, sleep better and stop procrastinating, everybody in the world. So how do we actually stick to these habits? Because I mean, anybody can buy like an exercise bike to get in the living room, promise themselves. They're going to go to sleep by 10 every night and get eight hours.

But like, how do we stick to these things? Yeah. So I think we've hit on multiple things throughout the conversation. This is probably a good place to like start to tie it together and see what this looks like when you layer it together. So one of the last things I say in the book is that the holy grail of habit change is not a single 1% improvement or a single little adjustment. but like a thousand of them. It's a bunch of small changes that collectively you kind of shape

this new environment for your habits. You shape this new lifestyle for yourself. And so some of the forces that you want working for you as you think about your New Year's resolutions or as you think about what you'd like to achieve the next year, the first question to ask is who's the type of person I'm trying to become? You know, what is that desired identity? And this is different than how a lot of people set New Year's resolutions, which is what are the results that I want, what are the goals that I have, what are the things I want to achieve? And I'm saying, I'm saying, saying, let's start with who is the type of person I want to be. And then what habits reinforce that identity? So maybe that's a different place to start this year or a different question to ask.

The next thing that you can do is that you can start to try to prime the environment to make those habits easy. So one question I think you can ask is keep a habit in mind that you're trying to build and then walk into the rooms where you spend most of your time each day and look around and ask yourself, what behaviors are obvious here? What behaviors are easy here? What is this space design to encourage? And you'll start to notice little adjustments that you could make to tweak the environment so that your good habits are more obvious and more attractive, like putting the exercise

bike by the window, and so that the bad habits are less favorable or less attractive or less obvious. And then I think it also comes to scaling it down and giving yourself permission to do the smaller version of the habit. So New Year's resolutions is a time when everybody thinks what they want to achieve, the type of person they want to become. It's very easy to get a little too ambitious or to bite off more than you can chew. And that's a natural thing. Like when you start thinking about the changes that you want to make or the results that you want to have, it's easy to get excited about who you could be. And I think the kind of implicit question that's in the back of everybody's mind,

even if they're not saying it specifically, is what could I achieve on my best day? And I think, think instead, what you can ask yourself is, what habit can I stick to even on the bad days? and start there. Give yourself permission for that to be the floor. Because if you can stick to it even on a day that's not optimal, then you're in a better position to maintain the habit. And sure, if you feel good or you have extra time or capacity, maybe you do more that day.

But you want to put yourself in a position where you're building momentum. So imagine two people, they're both like, hey, I'm going to start a workout habit this year. And one person's like, I'm going to do 100 pushups a day. That's going to be my target, my New Year's resolution. and the other person is like, I'm going to do one push-up a day. Now, maybe on the good days, the person who does one is like, you know what? I feel fresh.

Like, I'm going to do 10 instead or I'm going to do 50. Like, I feel good. I want to see what I can get today. But if they can show up, even on the bad days when they're exhausted and they're like, man, I didn't have time to work out today, they can do one before they fall into bed and go to sleep that night. And they feel like they maintain their progress, like they've got momentum still. But the person who did 100, maybe they do it for the first week.

They're really excited. They're really motivated about it. They're finding ways to fit it into their routine. But then the second or the third week or the fourth week, like something creeps in and the day gets away from them. And then it's like 10.30 at night and they're getting ready for bed. And they're like, I don't have time to do all this. Like, I guess I'm going to have to skip today and break the streak.

And they could do one or they could do 10 and they would feel good about themselves. But they don't feel good about it just because of the expectation that they set in the beginning. And so I think my point is start with a low enough baseline that you can maintain progress. long enough to cast votes and reinforce that identity and start to feel like, hey, I'm moving forward. Make it easy on yourself in the beginning. And it'll get hard enough soon enough. You know, like you can scale it up over time. But if you can do those different things, if you can focus on the identity that you want to reinforce, you can shape the environment to support that habit. And if you can scale it down and focus on doing something simple, something you could stick to

even on the bad days, then I think you're in a much better position to maintain a habit and to stick to the New Year's resolution. I love that. And I think it's obviously diet and exercise are really easy examples to make here. We know that's not everybody's resolutions or that they care about, but I think it's applicable to so many other areas. I think that goes without saying. Like, it's not all like, it's like diet exercise. I mean, Ashley texts me four in the morning. I was like, I need this bitch to go to sleep earlier. But if you make it like instead of like, I'm going to go to sleep 10 every day, if it's just I'm going to go sleep 15 minutes earlier than I usually do. Thank you for say that because that's like I'm thinking of like my things are stuff I need to not do more of. I need

to do less. Go to bed less late and then scroll less. So let's talk about that just for a second because I feel like this is something we haven't discussed yet that's important, which is you cannot have a habit that's outside of an environment. So every behavior is tied to a context. And if you change the context, the behavior will often change as well. So let's take the phone of the scrolling example. I'm like everybody else. If I have my phone next to me, I will check it every three minutes just because it is there. But I have a home office. And so when I can, I try to set this little rule for myself.

I don't do it every day, but I probably do it 80% of the time, which is I leave my phone in another room until lunch. And if I leave my phone in another room, it's just down the stairs. It's like 30 seconds away. But I never go get it. And I always think that's interesting. It's like, did I want it or not? You know, in one sense, I wanted it bad enough because I would check it every three minutes when it was next to me. But in another sense, I never wanted it so bad that I would work 30 seconds to go get it.

And a lot of habits are like that, beer, for example. If I buy a six pack of beer and I put it in the fridge, it's in the front of the door, it's like on a shelf where it's right in front of my face, I'll have one every night with dinner just because it's there. But if I put it like on the lowest shelf in the fridge all the way in the back where I kind of have to bend down to see it, I'll often forget it's there for like two weeks, you know? And again, did I want it or not? And I'm not saying that these changes will change, like, if it's an addiction, you know, like, yeah, it's not going to do it for that.

But you'd be surprised how many behaviors will curtail themselves to the desired degree if you just introduce a little bit of friction or change the context a little bit. And so the problem, the symptom might be that you're staying up until 4 a.m. That's not every night, right? That was, like, or whatever, midnight or midnight or more. It's true. I just need to clarify. We don't mean to drag you too much.

But maybe that's just the symptom. Maybe the actual thing that needs to change is not sleep, but I charge my phone in the kitchen and I have like an actual alarm cock next to me. And so my phone is not next to me when I'm in bed. Maybe that's the. Well, I do that. And it made a big change. Like last night was like a different.

That's not my norm. But I did. I did. I started. I just, I know. I started putting my phone. for a while now in the living room.

And it makes a huge difference. I mean, we want people to have their phones in their bedroom because we have an app that has erotic content. So we do want you to go to, before you put your phone in a different room, we want you to masturbate the living room with it. But in the living room on your couch.

But it's a huge change. I mean, if you are scrolling in bed, don't have your phone in bed. Well, I tell her all the time. I put my phone in the other room. My phone isn't 30 seconds away. It's four seconds away. I plug it in the bathroom,

and I just take a phone break for an hour. And sometimes I feel sick. Like I feel like nauseous from staring at the phone for so long. And physically I don't feel good. And even having it four seconds away feels so much physically better. Just not within reach even. Sure. And the other, you know, there are levels to this too.

So you can do the actual physical environment, like I mentioned. But we can also do this with your digital environment. And, you know, so much of our time now is spent looking at a screen. And so can you optimize that? environment or can you introduce a little bit of friction there? So two examples for me. I don't know. I was just spending too much time on Instagram. And so I was like, you know what? I'm just going to delete the app. And so I took it off the phone and I was like, when I want it, I'll download it. And you'd be surprised how often I'm like, I don't actually want it bad enough to wait a minute

for it to download. I just wanted to mindlessly tap it and look at it. And I went probably months before I downloaded it again. Like it was probably three or four months before I downloaded it, which is interesting because if you looked at my behavior and I was spending like an hour on it every day, you'd be like, this is a really important part of this guy's life. Totally. It turns out that it actually wasn't. It was just a virtuous part of my life. Yes.

The thought of downloading and logging in, all I have to do is look at the phone to log in. I won't do it. Yeah. Yeah. And so there are a lot of things that are like that. Another one on like the positive side was I wanted to read more books. And so I downloaded Audible for audiobooks. and I took all the apps on my home screen, moved into a second screen,

and then I put audible right there in the home bar, so it was like the first thing I'd see when I opened my phone. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm never going to go to Twitter. I'm never going to check Instagram or whatever, but it is just a subtle reminder where I'm kind of shaping this environment to make it easy to read books and harder to get on Instagram. And the result is that I didn't actually need to make that many big changes for my behavior to shift in a somewhat dramatic way,

or at least to the degree that I wanted it to shift. And that same principle can be applied to many different habits. I love that. I love it too. Any like final thoughts, James? I mean, I know you have such a wealth of information for people in your newsletter and your website and your book, of course, which everybody should read. But any like final thoughts on habits, resolutions, even, things like that? Yeah. Atomic Habits is kind of the reference guide.

Like obviously, we don't have time to talk about everything in this conversation. So that's there for you if you're thinking, how can I make habits easier? what are other things I can do to make them obvious? Like the book covers all in greater detail. But one thing that's worth discussing that we haven't touched on yet is the influence of social environment, you know, the influence of the people that you're around and the groups and tribes that you're part of. And if you want your habits to stick, you know, if you're sitting there this year and you're

thinking, I have these New Year's resolutions or I have this thing that I'd like to achieve this year, the social environment plays a big role in whether or not you're consistent with it and whether or not habits remain attractive in the long run. And so if you just think about some examples, like, if I walk outside my house and I look across the street and I see my neighbor mowing their grass, I might think, oh, I need to like mow the lawn too. And you'll stick to that habit of mowing your lawn for five or 10 or 20 years, like however long you live in that house. You know, like we wish that we have that level of consistency with our other habits. And why do you do it? Partially you do it because it feels good to have a clean lawn, but most of the same.

it feels good to have a clean lawn because you don't want to be judged by the other people in the neighborhood being the sloppy one. And so it's actually that social expectation, that social norm that, hey, to be a neighbor here, you take care of your lawn in your house, that gets you to stick to the habit. And that same sort of social expectation, that social norm, that social influence is there for all of your habits and all the groups that you belong to. And so I think the punchline, the takeaway, is that you want to join groups where your desire behavior is the normal behavior. Because if it's normal in that group,

it's going to be really motivating for you to stick to it. You know, like, one of the deepest human needs that we all have is the need to bond and connect. Like, we all want to be a part of something, even if it's just your little family unit. And so if you have to choose between, you know, I have habits that I don't really love, but I fit in, I belong, I connect.

Or I have the habits that I want to have, but I'm cast out, I'm ostracized, I'm criticized. Most of the time, the desire to belong will overpower the desire to improve. Like, people choose belonging over loneliness. And so as best as possible, you want to get those two things aligned. You want to join groups where your desired behavior is the normal behavior. And when people do this, they start to soak up all kinds of habits that are typical in that group. You know, like people join in a CrossFit gym thinking that they want to go to get healthy.

And then you turn around six months later and they're all eating. paleo and buying the same brand of knees leaves and like, you know, have the same workout shoes. Like, nobody intended to do that. They were all just soaking up the habits of the tribes that they belong to. And so you can ask yourself that question, like, how can I put myself in tribes where my desired behavior is the normal behavior? And the more that you do that, the more likely it is that the habit's going to stick for the long run. I love that. Okay. Okay. And then one final thing. I am curious of what you have to say about this in how many days does it take? take to set a habit. Is that a bullshit concept or? Yeah, it kind of is. Like there's,

you know, you hear about all kinds of stuff. So many memes or 30 days or, you know, whatever. The really popular one that gets dished around now is 66 days because there was one study that found that on average it took about 66 days to build a habit. But even in that study, the range is quite wide, you know, and so something easy like drinking a glass of water at lunch was like three weeks and something more difficult, like going for a run after work every day might be seven or eight or nine months. So 66 days doesn't really tell you anything. Also, this becomes obvious as soon as you unpack it and talk about it a little bit, which is it's going to depend even for the same habit because the context can be different. You know, like two people trying to get in the

habit of meditating for five minutes a day. One person has three kids under the age of four. And the other person is single and lives on their own. Like, who is in a better position to meditate quietly, you know? So the context influences how easy it is to build habits as well. So I don't really think that that tells you anything. But the thing that people are kind of getting at, the sort of like implicit assumption is like, well, how long do I have to do this before I don't have to work at it anymore? How long until it's like easy, you know?

And I think the honest answer to how long does it take to build a habit is forever. Because if you stop doing it, it's no longer a habit. You know, like, that's fair. Yeah. It's not like, hey, let me do this for 30 days and then I'll be a healthy person. You know, we're like, let me do this for 21 days and then I'll be productive. I won't have to think about it anymore. And what I'm kind of getting at with this is like you're looking for a small change,

a non-threatening change, something that you can integrate into your new lifestyle. We talked earlier about what kind of days do you want to live, you know, like something that you can make part of that day that you would like to have. And once you start to view your habits in that way, you have a little bit of a different lens to look at them. It's not something to like suffer through for 30 days and then it'll be automatic. It's something that you want to design so that it's enjoyable and frictionless and easy and satisfying. And when you do those things, you're more likely to be able to stick to it for forever rather than just like gritting your teeth and getting through

for 30 days. So yeah, I think, you know, the numbers get dished around a lot. The true answer is it depends. And really what we're trying to do is to find something that's sustainable and enjoyable. And if you do that, then maybe you're more likely to stick to it for the long run. The answer is forever. But I want to say one thing because you said glass of water and it really just made me think about someone that's on a hydration journey. Yeah. And I think being more hydrated, drinking more water is such a small, amazing example of all the things we've discussed. because people are like, I'm not going to fill up a glass 10 times a day. But if you invest in like a very cute water bottle and tell yourself to...

I'm surrounded by people that I work with that have giant water bottles. Tell yourself that you're going to finish it. And then you're also part of the culture. Because now it's become like so popular to have your like emotional support water bottle and your cute water bottle. And like you just, it's all the things in this very small change. And I've, you know, I've slipped up here. there. But like when when I'm doing it and I'm actually like I'm finishing this water bottle,

I feel better. I look better. I have more energy, you know, all the things. But it was, I had to tell myself like, I need to buy the dopest water bottle that I want to be with in photos. Like I just want, it needs to be attractive and it needs to be easy. It's going to stay cold all day. Like it made it so much easier than thinking like I need to refill a glass of water however many times a day. And then also like, yeah, I'm like reinforced by my social. This is the principles in action. And can I also just say that I love the phrase hydration journey, which like really has elevated the quest here. Like this is this is not just something small. This is something important. No, she's part of a community. Our assistant also has a giant water

water ball. She trolls me with it always. It's always sitting in the front seat in the car when I'm about to drive. I trip over it on the floor. Ashley's part of the community of this company that has a giant water bottles. Yeah. All right. Well, this feels like a good place to add. James, this has been really so fun. Thank you so much. And I know people are just going to want to find everything that you do. So just tell us what your website is and where they can find everything. Sure. So very easy. Just James Clear.com. And you can also go to Atomichabits.com if you want to check out the book. But yeah, feel for it to check out the website and the newsletter. And that's the best place to get more for me. So thanks again for the opportunity. It was a pleasure to talk to you both.

This was amazing. This was a great way to start the year. All right, we hope you guys enjoyed the interview, truly one of our faves. And you can find us at Girls Gotta Eat.com. Follow us at Instagram at Girls Got to Eat Podcast. Also on TikTok at Girls Got to Eat Podcast. I am Ash Hess on everything. Raina is reina. greenberg, vibes only.com, vibes only on Instagram and subscribe to our YouTube.

Yeah, that's it. Have a great start to your 2023, guys. Yes. We'll talk to you guys next week. Bye. Bye.