Girls Gotta Eat - How to Complain to Your Partner (and Friends) the Right Way feat. Psychologist/Author Guy Winch

Episode Date: September 26, 2022

We have another free therapy session with a favorite return guest -- psychologist, author, and speaker Guy Winch! On this episode, we're breaking down complaining from all angles, including the problem with not voicing your complaints to your partner, to how much complaining is too much in a relationship. We're also discussing the most effective way to complain both in relationships and in general life situations (like with a retailer or landlord), how to deal with chronic complainers (whether they're your partner, friend, or parent), and friendships defined by complaining. Plus, we cover how to complain in a funny way and sexual complaints (separate topics lol). Before Guy joins us, we're catching up on one of Rayna's former prospects back in the mix and Ashley's body still being fucked up. Enjoy! Follow Guy on Instagram @GuyWinch, listen to his podcast Dear Therapists, and find more on his website. Follow us @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit our website for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Shop Vibes Only. Thank you to our partners this week: Pretty Litter: Get 20% off your first Pretty Litter order at prettylitter.com/gge. Helix: Get up to $200 off all mattress orders + 2 free pillows at helixsleep.com/gge. Nutrafol: Get $15 off your first month's subscription plus free shipping at nutrafol.com/gge. Blueland: Go to blueland.com/gge to get 15% off your first order. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And of course it doesn't go well and like, ah, I knew I shouldn't say anything. And then we clam up again. But that's because we're not effective. And yet we could be if we knew how. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat. Welcome back. I have a rash. Covered in a rash.

Last week it was a cyst. This week it's a rash. Third doctor's appointment in two weeks. What the fuck? Should we be a medical podcast? I couldn't fuck if I wanted to. I got guys in town this weekend that I'm excited about. I have guys DMing me.

I've guys stalking me trying to come to my show tomorrow. Like, and I'm, my body's not ready. I can't relate because you had a slutty summer and everybody wanted you and I didn't fuck it all all summer and I am ready to go. He's ready. I started our publicist my boobs this morning. She was like, they look that good. You're rash free, butt cracks cyst free.

You are ready to fucking rock it. Let's go. Ready for thoughtum. Hot Girl Thottom. So much to announce, but I'll just, yeah, I have a rash and I'm going to go to the doctor right after this. And you know what? I wanted to plug one of our.

Your rash sponsor. And I also have no idea how I got this, like whatever. But I use Doc doc to book a same day appointment. They are one of our partners. You might hear them on some of the older episodes. And we love them. And it's so easy to just like search by who takes your insurance or if you want to pay out pocket and then like same day appointment.

Yeah. So I'm going back to the first dermatologist that put a needle in my butt crack two weeks ago. She's going to be like, this bitch is fucked up. She's going to be like, what is Ashley? You need to go therapist. What's going on? Well, you know, I felt really bad this morning. She sent me a photo of it.

I start to like panic when I get like a mosquito bite. I mean, if anything is going on with my skin, I like full on panic. It's like insane looking. It's just getting worse. It's spreading. It doesn't itch. So don't get on me. By this point, I've seen a doctor.

She probably got a new ailment, honestly, by the time you DM her, she's in a new doctor. Can I just say this? And then I know you want to speak on this too. I have never in my life gotten so many DMs about something than the cyst that I talked about last week. I'm starting a new podcast called Sisters, spelled CYS, spelled CYS, me and all my sisters, all you guys are in the DMs. It's such a common thing. Everyone, whether they've had the actual Pylonidal Sister or like just what I had, like so many DMs, so many concerns. and funny DMs and thanking me for normalizing this embarrassing thing that's in your butt.

And I just was like, this is my new brand, sisters, forever. Can I be a part of, we go so? Do you have a cyst? I'll get, but I'm your sister. I'll tell you how to get one. I'll walk you through. But you got a ton of amazing messages too. Well, it's just so, I mean, I can't stop saying, and it's so funny because Ashley and I got

like exactly the same messages following last week's episode saying, like, thank you so much for talking about this. Thank you so much for normalizing this. Mine was about my relationship with my mom and Ashley was about her butthole. The messages were the same. But we do want to say thank you so much. Wow, the response to last week's episode

about mother-daughter relationships and repairing them, it definitely applies to just parent-child relationships in general. I thought it was really applicable to really any parent-child relationship. But I talked about my mom and my relationship with her and you guys just sent the most beautiful messages thanking me for being vulnerable and open and normalizing, you know,

that you aren't best friends with your mom necessarily and you want to be and wanting to try to, like, change it. Or, you know, maybe you don't want to be best friends, but friends. Coexist. I just want to say thank you. Ashley and I both do. So thank you. If you guys haven't listened, that was the episode from last Monday.

So check it out. People were asking about an episode about dads, like daddy issues. And I think that gets covered a lot in different places. I know we've talked about relationships with fathers and things like that, but we're definitely on it. I want to dive into that with a professional as well coming soon. So we'll do a daddy issues episode for you guys. Yeah, we love these family episodes.

Okay, we are really excited to say this. I feel really emotional because we told you guys we were not going to be on tour for quite a while. We were going to be announcing a tour. But ahead of that, we just couldn't let you guys down. It's our tradition every single year. So announcing the Girls Got to Eat a holiday show live from the Apollo Theater December 15th. We are so excited. I'm sorry for yelling.

I feel really emotional. This is our tradition every single year. So, of course, we're honoring it. We cannot wait to see you in New York City, Thursday night, at the Apollo in December. Yes, I cannot wait. This was a venue that is so iconic and we wanted to do before. We just love this. The girls got to eat live from the Apollo.

And this will be our fourth year of holiday shows. We did them in 2018, 2019. We did it from the kitchen in 2025. Five years. We did one in the kitchen. 2018 let's let's let's let's let's let's let's let's let's let's remember nostalgia hit me 2018 2018 grandercy theater mm-hmm 2019 town hall

2020 kitchen party party city streamer backdrop 2021 beacon 22 Apollo like it's really we just have to do it tradition yes and if you guys haven't been before it is our craziest show of the year we have so much entertainment so much wild stuff goes on we have guests Last year we had the Brooklyn Nets open the show. So fun dancers, Ashley gifted me a stripper last year. I don't even know what she's going to gift me this year.

Oh my God. I mean, well, the strippers are just, they come now with the show. Like, it'll be an even bigger, better gift. Someone's going to eat my pussy on stage this year. We're going to have a pussy eat off. You know, I don't like it. Remember? You're going to bring out a guy and I get to suck his dick.

We did a dick-sucking contest at the show. people are like, this is not okay. I was the only contestant. But it's like we do it. So obviously we're not showing like pornographic. All you see is like the guy's face. His head is in one of those like cutouts. Like you see it like a theme park.

Or we put him in a box like a magician. Yeah. But who's the, so in my mind, three guys come out and I suck all their dicks. Graphic. This is just really fucked up. But am I the only contestant is my question?

Is that my gift? Okay, you guys, you can apply by emailing, by emailing blowjobs at Girls' Got to Eat Podcast. Now we're going to get that email address. Good morning America. Wanted to know if we had any clean clips. This is probably not what we're going to send them. We're also on Tamara Hall tomorrow. So you guys can check that out.

Check us out on Tamara Hall. Yeah, we did this GMA, GMA 3. It was a great experience. Yeah, it was. But it's a challenge to find things that are daytime TV friendly, even nighttime TV friendly, like for what we do because of cursing, all the sex talk and the wallpaper. Like we were sending clips from the studio and they were like, we can't show your titty wallpaper. We were like, oh, right.

They said even cartoon dancing. I mean, I do understand it. Yeah, of course they understand. This is like no shade. It's just, it's what it is. But we had a really fun experience. So, live show, holidays. We are so excited.

Get the tickets for that. They're going to go really fast. We've been getting so many messages about it. So they are going to go on sale next Monday if you're listening the week that this comes out. So Monday is it October 3rd? At 10 a.m. Eastern time. Is October 3rd the Mean Girls Day? No, that's October 4th.

April 4th. No, no, no. You're thinking of, I'm thinking of when Aaron Samuels asked. Yeah, I am too. In October 4th. It's October 3rd. Hold on. Yes, Mean Girls October 3rd.

So Mean Girls Day, October 3rd, we're 10 a.m. The tickets will go on. 10 a.m. Eastern time, they will go on sale and snatch those up. Yep. You can get that at GirlsGottyPodaypodcast.com. And if you're new here, every episode we've ever done is on the website. So you can look for new topics if you want. All of our partners are there as well. Everything provides only. You can go ahead and navigate over there from Girls Got to Eat website as well. So everything is there that you need. Yes. And if you're new here, I am a stand-up comedian and I do shows of my own. And they're really fun. and I have shows starting again in November,

and I have shows in Denver that they're all sold out for shows. Thank you guys for scooping up on those tickets. But then the following weekend, I will be in Nashville at Zanies, which is a club that Rain and I love so much, and we love performing there, love Nashville. I'll be at Zanies on Thursday the 10th. And then I will be headlining the Red Clay Festival in Atlanta on November 13th.

So it's Sunday, 7 o'clock, variety playhouse. This will be, I think my first, theater solo show. I've been doing all these comedy clubs, which I love a comedy club, but I'm headlining this festival. You can buy individual tickets to my show. It's not any different than a regular show. It's just going to be in a bigger, better venue. I'll have some fun openers. So if you see festival and you're like, well, I just want to go to a regular stand-up show. This is going to be that. I'm going to be doing my hour and it'll be really fun and crazy. And I'm, you know, started comedy in Atlanta. I lived there for 10 years. So it feels like a hometown

show for me. So if you guys want to come see me to stand up, Nashville, November 10th, and Atlanta, November 13th, and you can go to asheass.com. I've seen it. Pretty good. Pretty good. No, Ashley's great. And you guys will love her show. It is so much fun.

So I co-sign and I think you should go see it. And we will announce a tour after that, probably, closer to Thanksgiving. So grab the tickets to see Ashley. And as soon as you do that, we will announce a tour for the winter and the spring. We'll get all that out for you so you can buy it for holiday tickets. You have to get my tickets for. Grab the tickets to Ashley. If my tickets on my shows aren't sold out, we're not doing it.

We're not doing it. We're not doing a tour for girls. I'm just kidding. If we are. If I don't get on tour soon, I'm going to not be okay. No. You got to show these tithies off. Yeah, I got to show my rash off.

She got to show her butt holes. I'll have something going on. Yeah, something will be wrong with you by then. Something will have three fingers. Fall it off. She can't hold the mic. She just doesn't have a thumb. But you'll be able to get those for holiday gifts, the tickets that we have.

So, yeah. And then speaking of gifts, if you guys listen last week, we'll make this really quick. If you know our company, vibes only. it is an incredible line of Bluetooth-connected sex toys with an app that has erotic audio experiences and there is a controller for your sex toys. We have opened up the app. The controller is now free.

So the controller that controls your sex toys, free. Do you hear me? Free. Get in there, use it. It's so cool. And then also we've unlocked some of the content so you can get into the app play around and see if you like it. You'll love it.

We're confident. Yeah. So totally for free, you can go in there and you can see the whole app. So if you were like, what is this? Now you can see it and you can listen to some of these audio experiences in the full way that subscribers do. So you'll connect your vibrator if you want to. You'll be prompted to connect.

It's super easy. And then there are tutorials. They're actually video tutorials in there as well. If you're like, how do I connect this? What do I do? We've unlocked. There's videos in the app and we've unlocked the tutorial ones all for free as well. And those are Raina and I telling you guys how to use it.

So really get in there. There's some of the hot stories. There is the beginning of this BDSM. series, one of the sexiest voices in the app, that's for free. So listen to that, get a taste. And then if you want to subscribe, we hope that you do, there's so much more like it. But again, the standard controller, we are going to add some features down the road. But as it stands right now, the controller that we offer is free. And we hope that you'll subscribe. So everything is at vibes only.com. And you can get the app for iPhone and Android.

Yeah. All right. That's it. That's us plugging our stuff. What else do we have going on? So I have my first Indian wedding this weekend. I'm so jealous. Which a few people were like, this is the first Indian wedding you've ever been to? I mean, I have a lot of Indian friends. Some are single. Some I think are soon to be married and some are already married. And I feel like this is like such a weird thing when you become friends with somebody like, two of my very, very close friends, your friends are you. They're more my friends. We became so close. They got married before I became friends with them. And it's so weird to be like I wasn't at your wedding. You know, and I've seen like all this footage. Like one night our other friend sat me down and walked me through all four

days of their wedding and I was like almost in tears that I wasn't there. Like it's, it breaks your heart. So this is actually the first time it's aligned where I'm going to the wedding and doing all the things, getting the Mendi, you know, the Hena stuff tomorrow. And then, you know, it'll be over as you guys listen to this. But then like there's a party on Friday and then the wedding's on Saturday. And I had to get this like really cool outfit. It's like all sequins, very mermaidy. So I'm really excited. I know. Sorry. I'm like rubbing your face. I mean. No, no. I, I, I, I, I, I'm really excited. This is a friend of mine,

but not a, this is a birthday party friend, not a wedding friend for me. Yes, yes, exactly. She's wonderful. Yes, but I'm just, I know so much about these weddings. I've talked to so many friends about their weddings, and there's just so much fun stuff that happens and they're,

I just, the fashion is so fun to wear and just have like a totally different look than you would normally wear. And it was just like, fun consulting with my friends about like, can I wear this? Can I really wear a crop top? Like,

is that what we're doing? They're like, yeah, girl. That's what we do. So I'm excited. That's like what I have going on. Now we're recording on Wednesday, literally Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. This is, like, dominating my weekend.

So it was I love. Have you asked about, have you scoped the single men at the wedding? I think it's a pretty large wedding, and I think there will be a good amount. And then we've talked about being single at weddings before in other episodes, but just like, because we haven't touched on it a while, how do you feel about being single at this wedding? Great. I mean, I didn't, I don't even know if I got a plus one. I don't maybe think I did.

I don't know. But I don't have a partner. So I think we have maybe five girlfriends that are all just, we're all going to go together. So we're single and it's just going to be really fun. I love that. I can't wait. We're rolling deep. I keep saying I'm going to have to like take a trip this weekend or something.

I don't know how to get through this. I'm going to a party on Friday. I've been saying yes to more things lately because I say no to most stuff. So I'm going to go to a party on Friday and meet guys what you meet guys at this indeed wedding. Yeah. Well, you might have some. somebody else in the mix. I do. I'm excited. So I'm, you know, every few months, you guys, I recommit to dating. I just, I hadn't been feeling, like, great about my body before the second breast

reduction, and now I feel great about it. And I feel like they've healed really well, and I'm just, like, ready to get out there and get naked in front of people. So I'm excited. I reached out to somebody, because you and I were talking about just, like, because I don't really like dating app. So, of course, like, you should revert to either somebody who just, you know, or a friend of a friend. So I reached out to, it's a throwback from the winter time, but Dallas business card guy. And he's going to be here this weekend. And I will, listen, I, he texted me a few times over the spring.

And I was really busy. We were on tour and it's very hard to get a hold of me when we're on tour. I just forget to respond to people. I'm not trying to be a jerk. But he did send me three unanswered texts. And it was rude of me. It was. And then a week later, I just felt like,

I don't even know if I want to address this, whatever. I'll let it go. Right, right. So the other day, Ashley was like, you should text him. His business card lives on our coffee table. His business card follows Raina around. I had to take a picture of something for vibes the other day. Like we're doing like a really fun set for the holidays, just a little teaser.

And I did take a picture for her of something for it to see if something fit correctly. And I just held his business card up in the photo. I'm trying to find, here it is. I'm not, I'm trying to fuck you, not hire you. This clip is from February 1st. So the episode that coincided with February 1st, it was probably January 28th or something. If that you want to hear the Dallas. business card guy's story. It's a personal fave. And I, you know, we were talking about just dating and

like, I've been having a lot of deeper conversations with friends about my dating life and like what I'm looking for and how I'm feeling about everything. And we were kind of having that about you. And I was like, I think you should reach out to that guy. I just think it's like physically, he's your type. He's just, he's great. I just, let's not like discount these people that we already know that we may have bypassed because they don't live around here, whatever reason. And so I encouraged you to reach out. Yes. Just like she encouraged me to be my last relationship.

We're live at it earlier because she did, but I don't regret that relationship. It was a great relationship. So this guy had texted me three times. I didn't answer. So I texted him. I didn't even tell you this. This is so embarrassing, Ashley. Raina.

It was so humiliating. I was like, I'm going to get back in there. I saw that for whatever reason, don't worry about why. I saw he was going to be here on Monday. Which is so perfect. We were like, let's check the internet to see why he might be here. And he was. It's like, it's Kismet.

I reached out to him. I had all the time in the world. I had six months to write this text message. Did you have a typo? I had a huge typo. I said this maybe a little bit out of the blue, but any chance they're coming to New York for blah, blah. I wrote there instead of your. A there.

I was like a bottle of one. I type of text. I'm like, killed it. Send. And then they're like, any chance they're coming in New York. And then I panicked. No.

Oh God. And then what? I panicked and sent another text. And I wrote your. I should probably type this correctly. L.O.L. He just doesn't respond. Oh, no.

And I was like, honestly, that's fair. I sent him, he sent me a bunch of texts in spring. I never responded. I understand somebody being like, also, it doesn't matter why, but the context of the text I didn't read is it kind of sounded like I was asking him for tickets to something. So anyways, I was like, okay, you get two text messages. I'll follow up with somebody if they don't respond, whatever.

So I followed up last night and I said, well, if you are going to be here, we should grab a drink, if you have a night off from work, whatever. And whatever, I said, I figured I'd ask, smiley face. And then I sent that off last night. And he didn't respond this morning on the way to like, Good morning, America. I was like, all bummed. I was like, you know what?

I kind of deserve it. Let's not go sad of it. It was like, whatever. And I didn't feel bad. I felt like you sent two texts, you get two texts. But then he did respond right before we went to the set. So that was nice. So he'll be here this weekend.

We'll see. I'll let you guys know. But he's some work commitments ahead of time. So I'll let you guys know. Yeah. I mean, he's here on a work trip. So if it works out, it works out. But the takeaway for me is I think you get two texts.

I think that like one time is fine. Someone doesn't respond. second time, I don't think there's anything embarrassing about following up, I would never send a third text under any circumstances in the world. No. I did that too. I've been talking to this guy on Raya, and I was looking forward to, like, potentially meeting up with him, and I'd send him a text, like, because we matched, you know, a month

ago or, you know, mid-August, like, I feel like when we were, like, in Dewey around that time. Yeah, it was about where we were doing. And then I was going to see him, like, this week in New York or, you know, maybe last week in LA. Like, it's also just fine to forget about these people. I mean, they, like, live in your phone. They're strangers. It's like, I don't take it personally.

And I've done it. You know, we've all done it. But I was like, I was interested. So I, like, shot him a text or a, you know, message before Labor Day, like, have any plans for the weekend. And he didn't ever respond. And I was like, all right, well, whatever. Like, I'm a stranger.

I've done this people. He could have been dating somebody by now. He could not be in this app. Like, so many people have these apps that they just like don't look at for weeks, months on end. Whatever. I just don't. I mean, I met this guy personally.

I thought he was cute. I liked him. And I was like, I'm busy and I forgot. So then I saw that he was in New York this week. So I just shot him in their text. Raya tells you, like, where people are, if you have that enabled, I guess. So just shot him another message. And if I don't hear back, it's like, fine.

I don't know this person. My situation is a little bit different. But I do think, like, you can do that follow up or not. Like, I think it's fine not to. And maybe we'll discuss next week something when we have a little bit more time to dive into something that's something that's been happening. to me where guys are like so over the top and it feels like aggressive and the nonstop of unanswered messages and then they've been showing up. We'll talk about next week.

I'll unpack it for you guys. And we'll see what you think. So teaser for next week. But yeah, it's kind of crazy. But let's all wish rain of luck for the weekend. Okay. So, Bachelorette. Bachelorette. Plural. So you and I watched, we don't ever hang out, but we watched the last. We don't ever hang out. Don't hang out. We watched the second to last Bachelor episode and the beginning of the Bachelor season finale together.

Right. And last night is the first time we didn't watch one together in three weeks. Oh, because we watched. Oh, we've been watching. We haven't. Yeah. So we didn't watch the finale finale, part two of the finale, which was insanity. I was screaming at my television.

I like, the people in the hallway heard me. Yeah. So we don't need to like recap what happened. You either watch it or you don't. You care about The Bachelorette or you don't. But it was really crazy. It was like crazy with this thing with Tino. He took a shirt.

His shirt was all the way unbuttoned. He was making a phone call. It was just insane. And then they bring Avan back. And of course they did. But I mean, all of it was wild. And then the text messages with Eric, Erich, we call him Erich. They showed them.

It was an insane finale. It was honestly, if you haven't watched one minute of The Bachelor, the entire season, It's some of the best 30 minutes of television I've ever witnessed in my entire life. You don't have to know anything about these people. Just know that this guy, Tino, proposed to Rachel, and then he cheated on her by kissing some girl. And it went crazy. He brought his journal over to her house, which is a fake house,

and he looks disheveled, and he's reading from the journal. It was hysterical. I saw this tweet that was like, Tino coming over to Rachel's house to talk about this, and it was a picture of the burn book for Mean Girls. Like he's got these like receipts in this journal and she's like oh with no context like it was really good TV I don't know what's going on with her and Avin This we're recording this like the day after it happened I loved it and I loved watching the all former bachelettes like facial expressions as they're watching us all unfold I mean it was incredible television so I can't see what happens with Rachel and Avan and then they Uh announced Zach as the bachelor so fuck is the bachelor. Okay it's fuck um so it's just funny if you know if you listen to the show you know that we met Zach in cancun and it was he

DM'd me and it's this whole funny thing and we think we should be on the show we would love to be a part of the dates on the show I tagged him in something I was just checking my Instagram to see if he responded we should host a group date yeah I have an idea for it I'm not going to pitch it out here but I'm manifesting it so no we're not going to go on the show I'm not going to I'm not going to go in the show if they cast me they would cast me as the oldest woman as the oldest woman to ever be on the show, I guess with the exception of Claire. But they probably like hammered home, like on the set. But no one, this old has even been there.

Stop it. It's like one producer. Well, we were talking about this how like, even when there's a contestant that's like 33. They like can't stop talking about old. Her title just says cougar. Chariatic. Yeah, geriatric. That happened before.

I don't, I don't know if it was Michelle Money or it was somebody else that it was like all the girls just couldn't stop talking about how old this 32-year-old was. was like it's just like I would never I would never recover and I would I would never go on the show I wouldn't go on the show at any age I've been approached when I was a lot younger I it's not for me and no shade at all like people they find love and they get careers out of this so I get it but yeah now we want to go on we want to set up we want to do a group date so we're manifesting it with you guys you can manifest it with us and we have some connects and let's try to make it happen and we're working on it and then love is blind after the altar we told you guys to watch that as

well. This was three episodes of just the group post show. And now they're all broken up. So yeah, it's three episodes. I've never stayed up that late before. I realized like midnight, it was three episodes and I was up until two in the morning. It's so funny right now because you're saying that like it was live. You had to watch it and stay up. I've never stayed up so late to watch the Super Bowl. Yeah. I just, I don't, I started and I was so enthralled. I just, I love the friendship between all these women. I think it's this like incredibly diverse group of women that all met through the show and clearly like love and respect each other. And I really enjoy watching their friendship and all these people are friends. And I was real,

I just wanted to see the love stories play out. Also, I was dying. You know what happened with Deep Dee and Kyle. And so I had to stay up. I had to know. So as a stance now, they are broken up. I am heartbroken. I have never felt so deeply that I wanted a couple to really work out, you know, and I hope that they had ended amicably. We don't know all the details, but I felt so much that they had this great friendship and they didn't want to ruin it. And then right now she had such a good point. She was like, you're going to ruin him no matter what. If someone starts dating someone else, that's going to ruin it. So you may as well just try it. Well, she was like, if he dates someone else, I'll kill him. Right. Like, the friendship is over. Yeah. The friendship's been over?

No, you're not friends anymore. But anyway, we'll let her speak on it next week. Yes, we are so, why am I yelling? I'm so sorry for yelling. I just watched like the sound wave goes so high. we'll have her next week. She will be able to talk about what happened. I'm so moved by her story. I cried myself to sleep that night. She said this thing and it really like hit me in the heart. She was talking about her relationship with Kyle and the friendship and she said we're in this like gray area and like what is the point of this? Like I can't just keep living in this space and it hit me in my chest in terms of my dating life and just like not being in situations like that anymore where you're just like, is this going anywhere? What is the point of this? You know? Like I can be in

control of this. I should be in control of my own life. I should ask for what I want. Yes. And so she really inspired me and I think she'll inspire you guys. So we'll see her next week. She inspired me and all of us at the finale at the altar was shake when she was like, fuck this. I choose myself. You know, so we just love her and we are so excited to have her on the show literally next week. But yeah, I mean, check it out, you guys. I feel like love is blind is so popular. So so many you guys have probably already seen it or watch that. But it was nice. I'm trying to think of anything else really of note. My main takeaways are, we're Deep Dey and Kyle. And then I just really love Iana so much.

And like I'm sad about her and Jared. Like it's very clear that like he needs to grow up. And I think there's a lot of love there. And it's like a bummer that he couldn't. Well, I guess I'm assuming grow up enough to be with her because they broke up. I loved these couples. I loved Danielle and her husband too. I like was rooting for both these couples.

I did like them more on this after the altar actually. She seemed a lot more like settled. She felt she was secure in the relationship. I enjoyed watching them. So both these couples, I was really sad to watch them split up. I want to know about these text messages. I know. I'm trying to get deep to you to tell us.

I want to know what happened with Shana and Shane dying to know. I know. So hopefully we'll get the tea. But if you guys haven't watched that, if you didn't follow the assignment last week, your assignment, again, this week is to watch Love is Blind too. And after the altar. Yes. If you haven't even started it, have fun.

It's such good TV. Have fun. There's a new chef's table on Netflix, which I'm excited about. It's all about pizza. So five or six episodes, all about pizza. I've been really enjoying it. I have got to do Tell Me Lies on Hulu. I just have not had the time because I know this is going to suck me in and we are committed

to watching this. I don't think it's that many episodes. I think I can blow through it. I'm like, what am I going to do this? Like I'm going to do it at the holiday show? What? I think I'm going to do it the holiday show? You said I can blow through it.

Damn it. That was the best callback of the whole time. God damn it. Sorry. I forgot. That was hours ago. I'm kidding. I forgot about your blowjob contest.

I forgot about your little blowjob Got your little bluejimp, Kantis. You guys email blowjobs at Girls'Gedy Podcast.com. You've never sounded more like your mom, though, when you said that. Blowjob, catches. Oh, my God. Can you imagine? Okay, one more break, and then we were going to get into it with our guest today.

We didn't mention it before, but is Guy Winch back again. So excited about this episode. Okay, one last thing. What? I meant to say this. I've been wanting to share the story with the audience. So as you guys know, we were traveling, we were in L.A. And we were staying in this hotel.

We were on the same hall, different rooms, obviously. We would never. And so I like we're in the same hall, though. Like, it's easy because you're like, can you pick me up on the way out? Yeah, I was just knock on your way out. You were in 307. 3.07. It's the time I was born.

So it was easy for me to remember my room. And I had to tell you something. I was on the way out to go to a show. And I was like, are you home? And I knocked on your door. You're like, yeah, I'm just in a towel. But I just had to tell you something. I had an idea for something.

Okay. So I knock on your door and I like survey the room. I'm just nosy. I got to see what you're doing. And I see like propped up on your bed, your laptop. You're watching something on your laptop. And all I see in the laptop screen is like six boxes collage of security cam footage. Like six different camera angles.

And I literally started to feel sick in my stomach. Like what is she doing? Like she has a secret life. She's got cameras in the hotel. she's like weirdly spying on people like I'm not kidding reina and I go what is on your computer what are you doing reina and she said tell me right now tell me right now what are you doing what is on your laptop what is this is how you found out that this is like my secret life and she just said I'm watching below deck and I like lost black and white security footage and that was where it paused right I'm

not kidding you that I felt in the pit of my stomach. Like, it's happening. I don't know her at all. Like, it's this like deep dark secret. Crazy way for the podcast to end in a hotel in L.A. and you find out that I'm surveilling people. I have hacked the hotel surveillance system. It's happening.

What if Blue Deg is just a cover up? Like, what if I just made that up? I like see my room. It says like 307. I'm like, oh my God. She's such a freak. That's how it ends. I don't care if you surveil people, but you can't surveil me.

Okay. That is so far. I'm glad you told a story because I was worried we would never tell the story on the podcast. It was so funny. It just came to me. Memory unlocked. Okay. So excited for our guests today.

Yes. We are so excited to welcome back a guest to the show. He is a clinical psychologist. He is the author of multiple bestselling books, which have been translated into 28 different languages, including emotional first aid and how to fix a bro. broken heart. Collectively, his TED Talks have garnered 30 million views, including his first one, why we all need to practice emotional first aid, which is rated as one of the most

inspiring TED Talks of all time. I watch it. I can co-sign. He co-hosts his own podcast, Dear Therapist, with last week's phenomenal guest, Lori Gottlieb. Please welcome to the show, Dr. Guy Wynch. Thank you for having me. Thank you for joining us in person. What a treat. I know. It is a treat, especially after these past two and a half years. It feels really special. Yes, exactly. Well, welcome back. Everyone loved your previous episode. I think it really helped a lot of people and were excited to talk about complaining today. Who wouldn't be? You were on the show exactly two years ago in September. V-A-No loves to do this. I have to know.

We were joking about the stuff you say a lot. Her thing is telling people exactly a year and seven months ago, we did this episode. I got to know. She loves a milestone. I got to know. So, yeah, you are back exactly two years later to talk about complaining, and you wrote this book, which I read last night, The Squeaky Wheel. And so we're going to talk about how to complain more effectively to your partner, your friends, your family. And what do people are complaining to you all the time, which is what I want to talk about. It's a very important topic. I mean, it's a funny one.

It's a light one, but it actually has a lot of ramifications, which we'll get into, I'm sure. So I know this book was a while back, but I'm just curious about the inspiration. I mean, people come to a therapist because they need to talk things out, complain. Maybe they've complained to their friends too much, and their friends were like, go talk to a professional. So can you just tell us a little bit about the inspiration for the book and why you felt like this needed to be a book? Yeah, there were quite a few of them, but mostly it happened in the, like most things for me in the therapy office with patients. Just too often, I think there was a run of three of them that week. Okay.

Where somebody sat there in an individual session and said to me, and I'm just so angry. at my wife and I said and did you say something to her and he said he looked at me literally like I was crazy and say why would I say something to her like complain to her are you out of your mind and I and just another person said to me that no I just told all my buddies about it but it's not and another person had a customer service complaint and she said I was so angry with the company I said and so did you return the product no I don't want to start sitting on you know on hold and listening to bad music and and it just occurred to me like wow people have all these complaints and they have no idea what to do with them or how to handle them. Yeah, so I read the book

last night and I think in the intro there's a quote that I wrote down and you wrote when we were upset with a friend, family member, a colleague, that person is often the last person to hear about our dissatisfaction. I can't relate. Ashley, I read that and it hit me so hard immediately I was actually cannot relate to this at all. That person is immediately the first person, which is, I mean, that is something I value about my relationship with her and we've said this on the podcast. she'll just tell you right away. She'll call the front desk. She'll tell you. She'll do whatever.

But it hit me because I was like, that is true. I will spin my wheels talking about something to a friend that I'm mad at another friend about. And it's like, why didn't I just tell that person and just nip it in the butt? I'll spend years talking shit about something. And it's not a great way to be. It actually comes with quite

a price, right? Because when we voice complaints, and by the way, people don't understand that we probably voice dozens, dozens. dozens of them a day. And most of them are mild and they don't really matter and they're in the form of venting, which is fine. But when something really nags at us or bothers us

and we don't actually get it resolved, we just tell a lot of people about it, even sometimes, as you say, for years on end, there's something quite disempowering about that. That's something that leaves us feeling quite helpless and weak and frustrated and resentful. And it does have quite an impact on our psychologically that we don't realize.

So I think there's different layers and ways to structure the conversation because there's this not complaining enough or not voicing how you feel, then there's over-complaining, which I think a lot of people can relate to as well. And their partner or their friend or their parent or whoever is getting the brunt of the excessive complaining can relate. So should we start with the people that don't complain enough? Or how do you complain effectively? I mean, you just take it away. Okay. Well, first of all, let me just say one thing. One of the reasons people don't complain to the people they should be complaining to

is because it doesn't go well. And the reason it doesn't go well is because they suck at it. And in general, we're terrible at it. We just don't put any thought into it. So we voice it spontaneously, or once we've accumulated and we want to explode, and of course it doesn't go well. And like, ah, I knew I shouldn't say anything, and then we clam up again.

But that's because we're not effective, and yet we could be if we knew how. So one of the things that stuck out to me is, like, Ashley and I get these great emails all the time from people saying, I want to talk about my relationship. I have this thing that's going on. It's beautifully well written.

It's smart. It's insightful. And I always think if you just sent this to your partner, this is the perfect thing. But they didn't. They send it to us. And like you said, it's a fear of it not like going well or hurting somebody. So, of course, I understand why people don't do it.

One of the things I was struck by, and this is actually in the customer service domain, but it was a really interesting stat. And it was that on average, people, when they have a real complaint about a product or a service, won't, only 5% of people will actually complain to a company. And the reason the 95% of people don't is they think it will take too much time and create too much aggravation and be too effortful. But they spend way more time

voicing that complaint to everyone who can't do something about it like all their friends. And the thing is this, when we voice a complaint, we get aggravated anew each time we voice it. Every time you go around regaling people with a tail of like, you know, whatever it is, We get upset, we get aggravated. Yes, we get the venting and we get the validation from them afterwards.

But we're literally upsetting ourselves over and over and over again. It's not, the ROI on it is really, really poor. Is that translatable to relationships as well? Just in general. It's worse in relationships, because then when we start to fight and we get shut down very quickly because we voiced it really, really poorly, or we didn't think through it all what we're trying to do or what we're trying to achieve,

then it really shuts us up for sometimes. Sometimes somebody will try that once, and literally not try it again for years. And they're walking around with all these aggravations and dissatisfactions. It's hurting them. It's hurting the relationship. And if you do know how to do it, it's truly magical. So how can we start being better?

So I want to start with something really basic. Okay. And it's stupid basic. But it's true. That's great. The first thing you have to do when you have a complaint is figure out what you want to achieve by complaining. If you're upset with your partner or with a friend or with a family member, and you want to tell them about it to what end. You need to know what you're after.

You're after an apology, an acknowledgement, a makeup, a what, that they just don't do it again in the future, unless you know what you're trying to achieve, you're going to go about it the wrong way. So you literally start from that end and you work backwards. Here's the outcome I would like. How do I get there? Okay. So for the person like Ashley said that like doesn't complain ever, this is not like they're bread and bunner, they're not great at this. Like, then what? So, okay, but first, so that was the first thing you have to do. But even before that, you kind of, it's not about going about now and being complaining machines. It's not about, okay, now I know how to complain.

So I'm going to go about like machine gun style and that everyone know. That's not useful either because when we express a lot of negativity, it colors our perception of the world. And we don't want to color the world as negative and dower and against us. Because that has an impact on us too. That's the problem with complaining too much. You literally are painting the world as a crappy place to be. So you want to choose, and you want to choose the ones that are really meaningful, the ones that really nag at you, the ones that really make a difference in the relationship,

and those are the ones you want to voice. And there shouldn't be that many of those, hopefully. I feel like the word complaint can conjure up images of just whining. You know, like, and some of this sounds more just like an issue you could be having in the relationship. But actually, you can redirect someone, you can make a request, you can voice a dissatisfaction in all kinds of ways that are not fully a complaint. A complaint is, this is something. that bothered me, upset me, I'm not pleased with.

And so it has to, it's a fuller meal than just, you know, saying, hey, I didn't like when you said that. Or, hey, don't talk to me in that tone. Or something like that. A quick redirect. It's not really fully a complaint. And whining is about tone. Wining is about the manner in which you do it.

And it also smacks a victimhood. So I really know that kind of thing. And people associate that with complaining. I associate complaining with an assertive act. I associate complaining with an effort to actually get a result, do it assertively, and do it for the better of the relationship, whether that relationship is with a person, with a business, with a family member, whatever it is.

Okay. I feel like when I think about some things that I've complained long term about, the second that I address it, I'm like released from this feeling. It feels so good to me, like, I will let things faster for a long period of time. But the minute I say something, I, like, feel better and I'm released from this, like, prison of thinking about it constantly. But it is really scary to do that. And I think that, like, there's two types of complaining.

One is like you don't do the dishes, you know, like the house, like it's not so deep. It's not a character assassination. I think the stuff that's harder for me to address and probably other people is, and that we get emails about is more of like a character assassination almost of like who you are as a person. I don't have an issue saying to somebody like, I wish you'd clean up a little more around here or like buy toilet paper for the house. I think it's a little scary to be like, I don't like you are as a person. Yeah.

But I mean, do you see a lot with clients that it's all those little things that have built up to be so much bigger and then they don't know even where to start in terms of like I wish you would help around the house I wish you would do all these things

so look let's distinguish between criticism which is the character assassination a criticism is like who you are like it's not like please clean up around here more

it's you're so lazy please clean up around here more that's a criticism that's going to character and by the way that's one that's not going to work well because people are going to have a much bigger response

defensively to you're so lazy I'm lazy, and they're going to miss the point. And that's what happens when we complain poorly, which again we do all the time, is we actually misdirect the person away from the result we're trying to achieve into something sideways that they can then take on runway, though they can counterattack with. And suddenly we're in a big scuffle when it was like, oh, I just said you lift your underpants on the floor.

I didn't mean to start World War III. Right. But if you don't know what you're doing, you will start World War III. So what do you say to the person? Because I think this happens a lot. When you say to somebody like, I don't like that you leave your underpans, hands on the floor, but what they, like, I think I've experienced this in relationships where you say this one thing, but they hear, what they hear is you're a lazy piece of shit. Like, that, like, what do

you do when somebody's like, well, like that? So that's a much direct. You can simply say, please don't leave your underwear on the floor. And you say that once, and then the next day when they leave it, you just point and go underwear. And that's over complaint. I think I didn't, yeah, I mean, you could be a little like, hey, babe, it's just, you know, I just would love if you picked your underwear up. I mean, that's fine, right? Yeah, I don't show the underwear wants to sit down talk of listen we have to talk your underwear is on the floor or that's too much for that and that's what I'm saying you can go with simple requests and redirects and that's fine the complaint is when really something more meaningful is bothering you yeah like you know

they insulted you in front of someone and you really didn't like it or you really don't get along with their parents and it's causing a real problem for you like when there's something more meaningful, that's a real obstacle in the relationship or festering in some kind of way, that's when you have to address it. And that's when it's more serious. And that's when it does require a, hey, I want to talk to you about something. So are we ready for the complaint sandwich yet? I don't want to jump ahead. Are you guys hungry? I heard sandwich. I got excited. So look, the idea of the complaint sandwich is that even people who work in customer service feel attacked when people are complaining, even if they're not yelling at,

at them and screaming at them and cursing at them and telling them to die, which, by the way, happens many times. All day, every day. It's terrific. But we naturally get defensive. So the idea is you want to start with a positive statement to kind of relax the defenses and ease you in. So if it's like in a relationship, you start with something like, hey, look, we've been dating

for three months and I really like how it's going, you know, setting the tone for something, i.e., this is not going to be a relationship ending thing. Don't, you know, just bring it down a notch. and then the ending statement has to be something that gives motivation or that lets the person know that if they just resolve this in the way you requested, things will be great. And so that ending part is something like so if you could just, whatever the thing is,

I'd feel so much better about things that would be really great. And the meat of the sandwich, which goes in the middle, has to be super lean. And the mistake people make is they get a running start. And they literally will say things like, you know, in 2012 was the first time that you didn't be like, oh, oh, oh, oh, And by the way, they're tuning out by the time you go to 2016 and we're not at the present. Right.

And you don't need that because even if they've done it a thousand times, your point is you don't like it. And that point is made with one time, which is the most recent time. And so you have to keep it lean because, again, just to totally belabor the metaphor, you want the sandwich to be easy to swallow. So that's why the meat has to be lean and not overpowering. And so then you say as simply as possible, this I didn't like or this really bothers me. or when you said this, I felt that. You know, and you keep it simple.

And then you let them respond. Okay. So can we give you an example and you walk us through it, the exact verbiage? So I like your example of you cut me down sometimes in public. Let's say word, it's like a woman and she has a male partner and he just makes snide comments every once in a while, maybe belittles her a little bit. Not all the time. I feel like that can turn into an abusive relationship. But, you know, whatever it is.

And this happened recently on a night out. and she felt belittled and embarrassed. Right. So I would start with, look, I really like when we go out with friends. You know, it's one of my favorite things to do, and you're really fun to go out with, and you're really great most of the time. There's one thing you do that really bothers me.

You can sometimes, maybe you don't notice, be a little critical, or make a joke at my expense, which is actually a little uncomfortable for me. And I really would like you to be aware of that and to not do that. Do the opposite if you can. I'd like you to build me up. like us both to feel that we build each other up in front of other people. So if that's something

you can really pay attention to, it would mean a lot to me because it's something that bothers me. Perfect. I feel like that's so rational. And it's, when you said, like, keep it lean. I feel like so many people, including myself, it's so easy to fall into the trap of like, but you did do this four separate times. And here's every time you've done this. And I think I would struggle in that moment. Because I want to give examples. And I want to be like, you did this thing and this thing and this thing. And it's not that I know, if you did it once or twice, I probably wouldn't care, but you've done it four times and now let's talk about all. Like, it's hard for me to reel it in. Well, and then also sometimes you are with your partner or your friend or

whoever it is and they do something once and you just hope that's like a one-off. It's not that you're scared to speak up, but you're like, whatever, maybe they were like drunk. And then it happens again. And then you notice the pattern. And then you're like, now I have to say this. And then all the other four times are on your mind. It's a great advice to kind of cut back on that running start. Except it, look, let's be honest about one thing. It is way more satisfying to blast the person and completely unload on them and tell them they're real asshole and let you know that, you know, upset you were.

That's much more satisfying. It's going to be much less effective. Of course. Because the version I gave, while much less satisfying is going to be much more effective, they're going to be able to respond to that version much more. Now, by the way, you have that talk and the next time you go out it happens again, then you've got to address it perhaps a little bit different. I would still use, you know, that complaint sandwich, but I would say, like, I just want

to understand if that's something that you were aware that you were doing. I would drill a little bit more down to find out what is that about. Why does that then keep happening? But once you voice a complaint like that, then there's a limit setting involved. You don't let it slide the next time it happens. Because if you did, then the message is, but I'll tolerate it. And that's not your message. So then you really have to be on it. Okay. It's different. Obviously, your relationship and your customer service complaint, but it's still human behavior. And it's when you're so over the top, nice, like the outcome that you get is sometimes even more than you would have expected. Like, because a lot of those people have been screamed out all day.

So when you are so kind and nice and rational and not heated, it's just like the problem almost always is resolved. And not that this is a hot take, but it's just anytime I approach any situation that is in a customer service, I'll tell myself, like, don't take it out on this person who had nothing to do with this. Also, that is so important to remind yourself in those moments that this person is a low-salaried employee who's getting yelled at all day. They didn't cause the problem. And they might not be authorized to fix it either. So one of the questions I always ask if I'm calling, like, are you authorized to do blank? Because if I want to refund and it's $50, maybe they're authorized up to 25 and so I will actually

even ask them just so I know. But yeah, I remember that it's not their fault and I'm asking them to help me. And usually when we're asking somebody to help us, we're much nicer about them. To go at them and curse the year and yell at them and threaten them and then say, now help me. That's a great way to think of it too.

Just like, I'm asking this person for help. Why would I call and start yelling? I'm wondering what you mentioned a client of yours that said like there was complaining. constantly about his wife and you were like, why don't you tell her? And he was like, well, I would never do that. That's crazy.

What are you crazy? That's insane. So, like, what do you say to somebody that's just, like, been complaining about something for, like, a year and has never addressed it? Because we're way past the, like, sometimes when you're in public, you cut me down. Like, we're like the, this is what I've thought of you for a year. And I've complained to everybody else about it clearly and I've thought about it. Like, what do you, how do they start addressing it?

So, first of all, it's clear to me that, if that's, the case, they just don't know how. They're really worried they're going to do it wrong and they're very wise to be worried because they're likely to do it wrong. So I will literally help them with talking points. I'll literally give them the formula. I'll have them rehearse it with me. I'll correct them.

Sometimes I said to one time I said to someone, okay, we need to start with something positive. And this was in a couple's therapy session. And so he turns to his wife and he goes, nice blouse. And I'm like, no, no, no, that's not relevant to what we're talking about. You're like, I'm going to have to fire you as a client. This is divorce counseling now. No, but it's the point of how some people like,

really, they don't know what to say. And once they have good talking points and I'll, you know, here's a pad, write it down on your phone, whatever it is. And I say, and if you're worried about it, send an email, send it to me first so I can vet it because you're going to screw it up. So let me at least make sure that that version works well. You're going to mess this up. Just let me look at it first.

Well, yeah. I know. I love that. If it's really important, why not help them succeed? You know, and so then once they do get the hang of it, they get better at it, but it's a skill set. We have to get better at it if we don't have it. I love looking at stuff like that too, just in there's so many different things that we discuss that you're just not born with these skills. Some people are born with more than others or they acquire them as they grow up.

But I don't want someone to beat themselves up because they don't have these skills. Like you can learn them and you can practice them and you can get much better like with any communication skills. And look, and that's really important to do. I think I was naturally better at it. I mean, the first story I have in the book was a true story of when, it was many years ago when I was renting an apartment and they started building a building outside, you know, not related to my apartment. And it made so much noise, I asked for a rent abatement because my quality of living had gone down.

And so did everyone in the building. But everyone in the building just wrote these nasty letters to the management saying, like, there's incredible noise, you know, it's not fair. Give us a rent abatement. and I realize that has nothing to do with this building. It's New York, they'll build in front of you sometimes. So my whole letter was coming from that point of view of, I know this is not your fault, I know it's not your responsibility,

I know you don't owe me anything here, but the reality is my quality of life has taken a deep dive, and then I just said I would really appreciate it if you can adjust my rent even somewhat. It would make me feel better about the fact that I have to live with this now for two years. And they call me and they said, we got letters from everyone, and you're the only one we're giving a rent,

abatement to because that was a good letter. They literally said that. Wow. I dealt with that and I don't know if I ever, I discussed the noise when they were doing construction below my apartment, but I never, I got a lot of money back. Like I, because it really affected, it was unreal. They shouldn't have let me move in there, honestly. And then it got worse and then it was like totally unlivable. You know, I was lack of sleep.

I think I like cried about on the podcast early on. It was a lot to do that. Of course, it's not their fault. They're not doing it. It's the business below. And so it was. It was a long road, but it finally did result in a decent money off. So anyway, I can relate.

I love that story because noise. It ruined my life. Construction noise. It was a lot to do with. I want to talk about, so you talked about people that don't complain very often. I want to talk about people who it is diarrhea of the mouth. And I want to focus on your own behavior. And we can talk about people that complain to you constantly.

But the feedback from the last two series relationships I've been in, that I, let's say my mom, I bitch endlessly about it. I complain constantly and that I am doing and have done what you have said, which is that like I'll bitch to everybody about it instead of the person who it is. And so I have gotten that feedback in both my last serious relationships. So like how can we be better at like checking ourselves that like we are constantly bringing something up and complaining? So are you saying your partner and you can take yourself out of it too. Are we talking about a person who is complaining to their partner about everything else in the world? Yeah, that your partner says to you, you bitch endlessly about this.

You just dump on them constantly at you, but I'm saying. That was not the feedback. The feedback was one specific thing for me, but yes, like Ashley said to sort of zoom out that the feedback from your partner is like, you bitch endlessly about this. And it's bad for me to be in this environment, which is not what somebody said to me. But I think that is really relatable. So like, what do you, like, if somebody says, like, she just never stops. So I want to distinguish between you bitch endlessly about a topic that's clearly bothering you very much and that clearly you need to address. I think that's different because that's just something that must be very much on

your mind that you're exposed to a lot and so it just constantly aggravates you. Fair enough on that. I think that's different than somebody who I classify as a chronic complaint. Yes, agree. Oh, thank you. I feel like Raina, we know someone that is like the chronic complainer. like it's always a dark cloud. It's incessant. And then there's like something you were like pissed at me and you've been complaining about it for weeks. You know. Yeah. So thank you for both for drawing that. Because that, okay, that does feel really different. So let's talk about both of those things. Let's talk about the, you feel like your partner just like will not let this one thing go. Maybe it's work or maybe it's. Yes. Work is a great example. I, you know, I feel like Rayne and I both dated guys in the past that we felt were very similar and they would like come home and just like complain, complain, complain, and we're like, I can't hear about this anymore. Right. Well, I mean, look, but. If it's about that one thing, then the bottom line is, so why don't you find another job?

Or why don't you ask for a transfer to a different department? Or if this is truly making you this unhappy, maybe you should do something about it. In other words, you can set limits with someone and say, look, when you come home at the end of the day, I'm looking forward to a nice evening. And you bring home this cloud of work that puts us both in a shit mood. and it's like I'd like to use the end of the day to kind of recharge a bit and to restore and to be able to be lighter. So if this is really bothering you that much,

how about we set some limits about it? I'll give you 15 minutes every day. You need to compress it all into the 15, but after that we're moving on. Okay. Right? Sometimes if we do that in sessions with someone, I tell them that they have to stand up

and the rule is that every time to complain about something, they have to wag their finger. And it makes them feel stupid. They stop doing it at something. So make them feel stupid. Yeah, I mean, and that's just like one example. I mean, jobs come and go. It could be like a family member that they're dealing with.

And that's a little trickier because, you know, you potentially are tied to this family member forever. And I can see a world in which someone's like, all he does is like complain about his mom or all she does complain about her dad or in-laws or whatever it is. Did we approach that in the same way? Because it might be a little tougher. Right.

I think that not that it's easy, but you, of course, can change jobs. You cannot change your mother. No, but you can set limits with your mother. If you set limits with your mother, you'll have less to complain about to your partner, about your mom. In other words, you have to look at the source of what's going on. And if your mother is aggravating you that much, that's not good for you either. Then you need to find a way to set limits with that or to limit that. You know, I once said to my mother, and she's no longer alive, but I once said to her,

look, you don't get to call and just complain. And she would sometimes do that. Just like everything that's wrong, I'm like, it's not okay for me. So I'm going to give you 50-50. For everything you say that's wrong, I want to hear something that's great in your life. And then I shifted it to you've got to start with the one thing great, and then you earn the wrong.

So she had to earn the right to complain by telling me things that were going well. Now she would get really, really good. And she was like, I'm reading a good book. Now, you should have. here what's okay yeah yeah I feel like it I would drive me insane but it would drive like if somebody was like tell me 50% good stuff I'd be like I literally hate you but it would also maybe force me to fix the problem yeah I mean it again and it is like it is tricky I mean I have had times in my past where perhaps I wasn't the most compassionate partner and I am I'm more easily annoyed in life than

the average person I always say my like inner monologue is Larry David like I just I know I'm easily annoyed. So, you know, I think that maybe sometimes in past relationships, they could have complained a little bit more until it got to a point where I should have been annoyed or should have been over it. So I think that's also like a line too of like what's just normal and okay in a relationship. You should be able to vent to your partner. I mean, Rain and I were not romantic partners, but we will just nonstop. But usually it's an issue we're dealing with maybe together. So it's nice to have a sounding board. But yeah, there's probably a world. in which someone is being unrealistic about how relationships are,

because you should be able to express things that bother you in your life to your partner. Right. This is not about don't do that at all. This is about, this is about quantity. Right. This is about how much of the verbiage is negative. How much of the mood is negative. Right. Without the balance of the positive. And there should be a balance. And if it's really pervasively, pervasively negative, that's a problem. And then you should try and do something about it. And by the way, like let's look at an example of a new mother. who's, you know, stuck with, you know, the baby old day and is really miserable and needs to vent about that

because there's nothing she can change. There's nothing she can do about it. There's no action to be taken there. And then it's really important to allow her to vent and to be supportive and all those things because she's stuck, you know, or you're taking care of an elderly parent or somebody with an illness

and you need to be able to vent about it. It's super important. So there's situations in life in which, yeah, you need to be able to contain that from the other person and validate from the other person because it's truly nothing they can do. but if you think there are things that they can do and they obviously are, then

yeah, then really it's about okay, I'll validate, I'll be patient, I'll complain, I'll be compassionate, but you need to move out of the stuck place at some point. So I want to just, before we move on, I want to go back to what Ashley said about the dark cloud chronic complainer where you just feel like every day it's something.

It's not just like this work thing you need to focus on or your parent. It's like every day I walk into a dark cloud and like I can't live like this. So how do you talk to somebody? about that because that does feel more of a character assassination to me. Like, I, it was like,

it like shot me in the heart when my partner said to me, you claim it by your mom too much. But this is like your whole personality. Right. Right. Now, I wrote an article about it once. And the way I started it, I said, you know, optimists see the glass half full and pessimists see the glass half empty.

And chronic complainers see the glass that's chipped and the water's a little muddy and now I really can't even drink of it. And why do these things always happen to me? Why can't even at a glass of, it's that. Yes. Nothing ever works out for me. My water's always murky.

And the problem with the chronic complainer is every time you try and give them a suggestion or show them a bright side or help them in a way that will really resolve the issue, they're going to fight you on it. Because in fact, the chronic complainers don't want to resolve the complaints. They just want validation for the victimhood. They just want you to validate like, oh, my goodness. Oh, that's just terrible. That's just terrible.

You know, because every time you see them, how are you? You know me, and you feel in your head, sadly, I do. And, you know, because it's now going to be this whole litany of everything that went wrong and all the victimization and poor them and life always sucks for them. And it's so negative. It's embedded into who they are and how they see themselves in the world. And that's why they fight it when you say like, no, but that sounds great. Oh, you would think it would be great.

But you went on vacation. and don't even ask about the hotel. It's just you can't get there. You cannot get to a ray of sunshine anywhere. And so when you read, and those are not a lot of people, but there are some people, and they are very distinct when you know them.

And with them, you do not try and fight it. I mean, unless it's somebody you really are stuck in a relationship with, which is a different story, then you just go with a few minutes of like, oh, that's a shame. Oh, that's terrible. Oh, well, look at the time. You know, like, and then you kind of move on,

because they really don't, they're not looking for comfort. They're looking for validation. And you'll just sort of, so like, you'll just spin your wheels. So, like, say this is like a friend that says, do I have this problem? And no matter what they, no matter what you say, even though they're asking for advice, they're just going to tell you why you're wrong and they're going to tell you why they're going to do what they want to do anyways kind of thing. And, like, you get into this spiral of just complaining that, like, you're like,

wait, nothing's ever going to fix this. So you think with people like that, you just sort of say, like, you just listen and hear them out. And that's it? they're really close. I mean, if they're really close, then you can try and have some kind of intervention on it. But if they're not really close, that's not your job to kind of tell them, hey, there's something really wrong here. And then you just manage them in a way, like, you know, if their acquaintances, if their colleagues, whatever it is, you just try and manage and once, and again, these are not a lot of people, but, but it's distinct and you know it when, and you know

those people when you, when you encounter them, if it's someone close and, you know, I mean, when I've had people like that in my life, I've said something at some point. And I said, look, I just want to mention something to you. You are such a lovely person and you are so kind and you're so compassionate and I'll go through, you know, again, I'm complaint sandwiching for people who haven't picked it up. And I'll start with something like that. And then I'll say something like, but you seem to be really focused on everything that goes wrong in your life

and not at all focused enough on what's going right. And I worry that that's really impacting your mood. And I worry that's really impacting your quality of life. And I care about you. Do you notice that? I love that. And I also just want to say that I do think that people go through phases in their life where things just are darker or depression. I mean, I remember a point in my life, our lives, where we were just so busy and it just felt like we weren't having fun and we were really stressed. And I felt like I was walking away from situations and being like, I just like unloaded on a friend at the comedy club when they asked how things were going. And like that's not me. And I realize that. But then I feel like I've had friends as well. I'm thinking of two friends that that's not their natural state. But then it seems like that for weeks or months on end. And one of them, she made a big life change. But there was a point where I was like, I mean, it's tough to be around. And she used to be so fun and light. And now it's like this past six months,

it's like constant complaining. Again, made a big life change. And I want to say that to validate that like we go through phases in our lives where things are just feeling more negative. And you can realize it on your own or what you said is so compassionate and nice and sometimes some people need to hear that. Like sometimes you can't stay outside of yourself and someone that you love and care about it could be really helpful for them to say like, I've noticing a little negativity and maybe, you know. Yeah, but you have to be very careful, right? Because there's some people like, you're not going to say that to somebody who's a refugee. You're not going to say that to somebody who actually did go through a series of terrible events. Right. Or who's truly having a very, very hard time and then it's appropriate.

But the other distinction you made, which I think is so important, is that if it's out of character. Yes. Because that means something's going on. That means the person's stressed or depressed or something. And then you can say, like, you've seemed depressed to me. You might have been for months now. Are you okay? I mean, that's a fair conversation to have as well.

But that's not like, look, you're complaining endlessly. That's like, you seem depressed. You seem really down. Are you okay? Can I help? Can I do it? Yeah. To me, I think that's a good time to like bring it up, check in with some.

and draw the boundary because you're at least like bringing somebody's behavior to them. And I've had people do that with me because it's not my nature to complain at all. I'm a pretty easygoing person. And two summers ago, I had two friends back to back saying to me like, you're talking about your body a lot. You're like really talking about like your image and how you feel about yourself. And from the other side of the coin, it made me realize something about myself. It felt supportive.

It felt loving. Two people said it. So I, I mean, I got a workout bike and I started working out. And I was like, okay, let's address. Not everybody could buy a workout bike. But it allowed me to look at my own self and what I was saying and how it was affecting my mood. And I was like, oh, I am constantly thinking about my body. Let me think about this a little bit more and why.

So I think that's really, it can be really supportive. And it also helped me to draw a boundary and be like, all right, let me think about my behavior. And yeah, you know, maybe people don't want to hear this so much. And I need to do some self-evaluation. That person, and again, I like what you said about some people have had a traumatic life. and it's just there, it's going to be a little heavier and darker on them. But someone that that's not their story, that's just that natural person that, like, complains constantly.

I mean, everybody's got their own shit going on. But I guess there's nothing really that has really taken such a toll. Like, can those people change? I mean, we're talking someone that's 30 plus that it's like, is that just your personality? Right. Do you need to just find people that can deal with it, you know? Yeah.

People that just walk and, like you said, you can't even ask how their vacation was without them being like, The weather was so hot Miami. It's like Miami's hot. Why is this the thing? Also, I complain a lot, but I make it funny. Okay, and I want to make, okay, you know what? That's a very, very important caveat.

Okay. And look, I used to do stand-up too. If you're working out a bit, if you're figuring out material, you know, or if you're making it funny, or if you're really looking for the funny, sarcastic way to present it, it sounds very different than complaining. Thank you, Guy. Because you're doing it with a wink. You're finding, you're being sarcastic about it.

You're finding the humor in it. You're making it sound, giving it a very different tone. And that doesn't sound complaining to people. Because what stand up is fundamentally is a series of litanyers of complaints. You're just telling them funny. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, my ex was like, all you do is talk shit. I was like, that's my hobby.

That's my personality. I love doing that. If you can't enjoy that, you can't be here. I took a beat for a second. I was like, do I do that? Yeah, I do. And I love it. But I want to go back to, again, when Ashley said,

okay, so the person that's not, they're not a stand-up comedian. They're just like, everything sucks. But they can still be funny. Yeah, okay, but right. Can they change? Sometimes, look, you just gave an example. This is not the best example.

When you said, when two people said something to you about, hey, you're talking about this a lot, pay attention, you're like, oh, I need to pay attention. And for some people, when you say, hey, you're sounding really negative. Are you aware? I know you went through a life change. How are you with it because you don't seem to be as happy as you used to be?

How is that going? For some people it's like, oh, they didn't realize it. They're so in it that they didn't realize it maybe for months and maybe sometimes even for years, there's something that's coming out of them that's quite, quite negative. So I think it can be useful for people. And yes, some people can certainly change. Again, it's related in some way to our identities.

Some people, the way they define themselves is by, I'm the person that lives take a shit on. You know, that that's who I am. It always, always goes badly for me. And it's an unfortunate way to define yourself because it'll become a self-fulfilling prophecy all the time. I'm going to ask if it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. And again, you can point it out.

But there are the people, you know, in therapy known as help rejecting complainers. And they're the people who go from therapist to therapist to therapist. And no one can help them. And essentially they're not open to help. And again, that's a minority. That's a sliver of people. They're truly not that many. But there are people like that, and there are people who can't change,

who don't change, you don't really want to. But most people can, and sometimes saying something can be a loving act, and sometimes saying something can open someone's eyes and make them realize, oh, I've really, you're right. I haven't realized how I've slipped, and it happened gradually for me, but wow, it is all encompassing right now. I like that you brought up your mom, because when I hear maybe this type of person,

I definitely know people that they could be thinking that that's their parent or their grandparent or, you know, somebody that may be a little older, more stuck in their ways that may not take the feedback as well. So when you were like, hey, you have to tell me something positive, do you feel like over time it made an impact? At the time, it did. And at the time, you know, it really changed something. It changed something in our dynamic because our conversations changed. And then I brought more lightness to them.

And it was really, really helpful. And, you know, and so it can actually help with that. I just wanted you to say that because I think sometimes you have to put in the work to, you know, And again, this is kind of the stuff we talked about last week with Lori of sometimes if you're the child, you're frustrated. Like, why do I have to put in the work? Why can't they just be different? But sometimes you might have to change the way you structure the conversation, like lead them to water. And maybe over time, it'll just naturally get better. So I like that almost like forcing it on them. You tell me something positive right now. You know, tell me now. Tell me now. Tell me right now. I think for friends, it can be tough because you tell me something. You know, I think for friends it can be tough because you're, you tell me something. you can fall into this dynamic where like that's just your relationship. You just complain about stuff all the time. And, you know, I think people really want to come to Ashley and I for relationship advice.

That is what all of our friends do. We're the first call for a breakup, for a tough situation with a friend. I mean, this is what we do for a living. We've had the honor of interviews so many people like you. We've a lot of information. So I think that sometimes, you know, you can have this dynamic with, we'll call it female friendship where like all you do is complain and it's hard to stop at some point. And I've felt frustrated where I feel like sometimes like my relationship with

certain person. It's like, all they do is complain to me about like their love life and their dating life and their sex life and I can't listen to this anymore and I don't want this to be our relationship and I'm fatigued from it and I don't know how sometimes. But I mean, you sort of said you just have to address it and draw the boundary. Yeah. Now here's another thing that happens which I want to address because this happens quite commonly and it's very problematic and we call it co-rumination. And what happens there is that one person and often it happens with women and often with younger women, you know, teenage girls a lot of the time, is that one will start complaining to the other about something

and it'll feed into the other person that go, oh, I know, me too. And they can spend hours, hours together, ruminating about the things that are upsetting them. It's like one is feeding the other. And what we know from that research is that those girls, and again, sometimes women, sometimes men, but it is mostly women, can get much more depressed over time. because it's a best friend and their friendship is often defined

by we get together and we talk about how miserable we are in the dating world or we get together and we talk about how miserable we are at work but what we do is we share misery all the time and that can be really, really damaging. Again, we have to be aware that what we say

not just reflects how we see the world but colors how we see the world and what a lot of we're putting out there is so negative and we feel so passive about it. because none of it is about solutions. None of it is about, oh, but let's get perspective. None of it is about, but let's try and see that in a different way.

It's just about the misery of it. That will really foster a negative perception that will really foster a sense of depression, a sense of helplessness, even anxiety in that sense. And so that idea of, oh, I have this friend that we can get together and just share the misery for hours on end is not a good thing. You actually have to be very careful. Because you're like, you think that you're bonding and that you're venting,

but you're not, you're just, it's like a cycle. You are bonding. You are bonding. But what you were talking about with you and I do is like, well, bitch about something, but I always feel at the end of the conversation, we've like addressed it and we have a solution. I don't feel like I'm, this is not like a misery loves company. I'm just here to do more misery. Yeah.

And I think two things. One, it's how you feel after. Do you feel sick? Like, do you feel like I'm so much worse off than I came into this conversation? And I don't know. I think the funny thing that Rainey and I do is one person's always. like a little more upset and the other person picks up on it and has to be the optimist. It's very weird.

Like when I'm like so low where I'm like I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel with whatever is going on, like rain is the one that has to be like, okay, well look at the bright side. And then when she's in that space, like all of a sudden I jump into action, I'm like, okay, well, this, this and this. And she's like, you're right. Thank you for reframing it. Like I don't, it comes naturally, but I'm glad that we do that somehow innately as

opposed to, yes, we sit around and we have cried together and complained together, but sometimes you have to take on the role of like, yeah, I'm annoyed about this too, but I need to offer a different perspective, so we're not just sitting here rolling around our own shit. Yeah, I'm smiling because that is a very, very classical couple dynamic. No, but you're, look, your work-wise, it's okay. Yeah, you know, like you are a couple in that way. And, you know, and it's true, you know, when you have a couple and they have a problem, they can't both. fall to pieces. They can't. So one of them,

you know, one of them takes that role. The other one usually has to take the other position. And it's a very natural dynamic that happens. But again, it will happen between, you know, colleagues who work together all the time. It's just a couple dynamic and it's a very natural one. You're right, though. It's like when I walk away from these situations, like we literally, this exact situation last week.

She was upset about something. I was trying to see the bright side. Then I got upset about it. She was like, we're done being upset about this. We're done with it. And she was really nice. I had a good cry. It was great. But I said other things too of why we should be done with it. She wasn't just like, we're down with this. Stop crying. I do feel better when I walk away, but there's like, I know what you're saying

where these relationships where you walk away and you've used each other as sounding worse. You just walk away feeling worse. You're just like in the shit. And it depends on what it is. Like, I want to be clear. You know, someone's not like my parent died and you're like, look at the bright side. Like, I want to be clear.

I'm talking about a different type of complaining, you know, like we have a friend that's really dealing with something hard right now. And like, she's not complaining. She's telling us how she's feeling. And it's, we're not at, there's no, we're not at the point yet to really offer anything except for like, I love you, I'm here for you. I'm support you. I understand.

Or I, as much as I can and I'm listening and I'm here as opposed to like, well, girl, just get back out there and think about it this way. Like it's, I don't know. It's sometimes, every situation's different, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what she needs. She needs right now, if it's very difficult, she needs the validation. She needs the compassion.

She needs the sounding board. she needs the hugs. You know, in six months time, if that's, if she's still stuck in that place, maybe that's when it's like, come on, you might need to, you feel, you know, you sound a little stuck. But not at the beginning. And it depends on the, on the magnitude of the thing. Of course, compassion should be the first response. Yeah, I have a real problem with people in the beginning that say like, just be, it'll be fine.

Like, you know, in six months, if it's become your whole personality, that's different. Yeah. One thing, and you tell me if you agree, if someone is really stuck and it's been on going and let's just take someone that's going through a breakup, for example. And it is like that sexensity scene where they are like, Carrie, we can't listen to this anymore. You need to go to therapist. And she does. But I would say something like I'm out of my league here. Like I feel like I can't help you anymore. I've offered you all the knowledge and information I have. And I would love to see this get better for you. And again, not sitting down with the therapist, not everyone,

it's not for everyone and not everyone can afford it. But we've seen people send podcast episodes of ours or there's books or there's different things. So I don't think that's ever gone so terribly wrong. I think that's a lovely way to say it, the way you say it. I'm really honored that Ashley and I are the people in our friends' lives that people come to. I feel so special that somebody would, A, want to share something with me and B, want my insight. But at some point, I am out of my league.

I got to go to work. I can't do anything else for you, you know? I do want to say one thing, though, before, I don't know how much time we have before. And I do want to get back to the fact that I think complaining is a good, thing, in essence, to me, the way I think about it. And the last chapter in the squeaky wheelbook is about complaining as activism, how very specific private people have had a complaint, but they started a campaign of effective complaining that went up against governments,

went up against huge companies, and one person brought those companies of the governments to their knees just because they were good at galvanizing. And what I say to people, an example I often get is that people come and say, oh, you know, my kid just came home from school and I don't like what the teacher said to them. And I want to complain about that teacher. And it doesn't really go well to complain about the teacher. Because when you come in as a parent of a kid and say, you know, I don't like how the teacher treats my kid, you're the complaining parent.

There is a world of difference between two parents coming in. You gave that example. You said, two people said it to me. Not one. And you emphasize, well, I heard it from two people. because one person, maybe she has an issue with me. Two people, no, that's me. And so it's a principle of complaining that if you can get one other person to do it with you,

you're going to get much further than if it's just you. All right. Well, let's talk about, let's talk about sexual complaints because those are tricky. Those are the hardest for a lot of people to bring up. Because people feel really uncomfortable about bringing up sexual complaints. One, they don't feel uncomfortable bringing up. bringing up and you know most people often mostly men but not necessarily don't feel uncomfortable at bringing up i want more of it you know we're not having enough of it but when you're getting

into the specifics of yeah you know there's something that we're doing sexually that's not okay for me or i i really want sex to be better or you know like a lot of people feel really really uncomfortable bringing that up and and to me it is incredibly important in a relationship that you're able to do that. Because to the extent, you know, some people, sex is not that important for them, but for a lot of people it is. And that's something that can happen a lot. And the thing that happens a lot is that when one person says,

hey, I want more of this. You know, like, and especially when it's a woman who's saying, I want more of this from a man or from another woman, and they don't get it. They go to bed feeling rejected every night because they lie there, well, is it going to happen now? Are they going to hear me now? And then it ends up this accumulation of feeling really, really rejected.

And that can be really, really damaging. So I think it's really important for a couple to develop, again, the skill set, this happens with practice, to put sex on the table as something we talk about. And the more you do that, the easier it is to do. And it truly becomes just one more thing to talk about. But it's the discomfort you have to break through. But the great thing about that is that, you know, it's just about talking about it and it becomes less.

uncomfortable, but only if you address it and you can talk about it. So what if the complaint is that we just don't have sex? Then the complaint, well, the complaint is we don't have sex and I want to. And then, and if we, I hear from people all the time, oh, I haven't had sex with my partner in five years. And I'm like, and you're not talking about that at all? I said, no. And how do they feel about that?

I don't know. Oh, my goodness. I mean, it's not the judgment of the not having sex. It's the like, I can't imagine not speaking up. But I, it's tough. It's so common. Tough for some people. It's so common.

It's much more common than you would imagine. And five years, one year, even it's been six months. It's been like it's quite, quite common. And people don't talk about it. And they don't know how the other person feels about it. And I'm like, what if they feel like you? And what if they're misreading you and thinking you're the hesitant one? And you think they're the hesitant one.

And maybe he is, maybe you are, maybe you both are. How do you know unless you talk about it? So can we just do an example language for we haven't had sex in a while? And five years might sound extreme to somebody, but even let's say whatever feels long to you, whoever's listening. You know, like it's been a few, whatever feels abnormal in your relationship. How can we bring this up? Is it still the sandwich?

So actually that one is quite straightforward. It's like, hey, I'm going to talk about something. Yes. And you make sure you have their attention. And you say, I want to talk about a sex life. If it's been five years, they know what the conversation is. conversations about. Right.

Or, you know, even if it's been six months, they know what the conversation's about. You know, that's not a tricky one to get into it all. You know, you just need to bring it up and say, can we talk about this? I don't know how you feel about this. Maybe this is okay for you. What people do need to do, though, because I hear this all the time as well, is you want to get an idea and do the research online about what's normative. Because, you know, people will sometimes say to me, in a couple therapy session,

one person say, we don't have sex enough at all. and the other person says, I think we do? And then I always ask, well, how often do you have it? And sometimes will say to me three times a week, and we've been together for 30 years. And I'm like, all right, then, what's your secret? You know, like, in other words, that's a different... But one of them will feel really frustrated.

And they don't understand that they are so far ahead of the curve, you know? And so you do need to get a sense of what's normative there. You said this thing that would immediately disarm me, which is that you start the conversation by saying, I want to talk about this and I want to see how you feel about this. because I think that a lot of people, including myself, mostly open up a conversation and say, I want to talk about this and this is how I feel about it. And I like that language of like, I want to talk about this and I also want to see how you feel.

Because to me, I feel immediately like my guard has dropped a little bit because I know that like I'm going to be a part of this too, you know? Yeah. It probably gets a little more difficult with like the nitty gritty. Like I wish you would go down on me. I mean, I can understand that it might be a more challenging ass. but maybe that could be, I love being intimate with you.

I like, can you maybe start with a compliment there, but I wish I could have some more of this, or I wish, you know, because it can't complain so much. I don't know if you have such a beautiful mouth. You're not using it correctly. I mean, I don't know if that's the recipe there.

It can really be, but first of all, be aware that if you're making specific requests, be open to getting them and that, but that's a much better discussion to have, right? Like, I want to talk about our repertoire. We seem to be falling. into quite a narrow way of doing things.

And I want to talk about stuff we used to do that we don't do or stuff we don't do that I would like to try. Can we have a conversation about expanding our repertoire or bringing more tricks and tools into the encounters? Yeah. Because I think when you say, like, and I want to say how you feel about this, I think that like you've implied like, and I do want to get the feedback as well.

Like I'm going to tell you you need to like be down there more often. But like I'm open to you saying I also need to, you know? Maybe we need 69 more. We'll both through the same. That's how you start. I'll do it if you do it if you do it. That's what I did with my ex with therapy. I was like, I'll go if you go.

I'll start. Okay, good. I mean, I just knew he needed to go to therapy just for it with to deal with some things that, again, I was not equipped to deal with. And I was happy to listen, but I couldn't help. I was so out of my league. And I was like, I'll go. So I went, found a great therapist. She recommended therapist for him.

He went. And I was like, we're good. Good. We broke up, but he might still be in therapy. So anyway, I hated the way a partner my dressed. I really hated it. This comes up a lot and, you know, how do I change? I said, you can dress me.

I want to know what you think about what I wear, pick out my outfits and that for me. Oh my goodness, but if you didn't like how they're going to let the person who you think dress is terribly dressed you. I didn't. No, I thought. I asked him like what he thought of outfits more often and like what I was choosing. And for me, it was like then that opened the door for me to give him advice about what he was wearing. Is this bad advice? It's not what I would do.

Rather than saying I hate the way you dress. No, no, no. Most of them just say things like, are you going to wear that? Well, I didn't want to do that. I wanted to be like, this is something we talk about. Oh, no.

It's fine. I'm not saying there's a right or wrong way. My personal opinion is you tell someone when you like what they do wear and tell them how sexy and how good they look. And you can also like go shopping. And I did that with an ex of mine where we went to the gap and like,

let's like trying some clothes and just like over the top compliments. Oh my God, you're so sexy. Like I just, anytime he did something. thing that I liked, I doubled down on it. I think so we like did more of it. And so many guys, I think are just open to listening to their partners. I'm one of those who I hate shopping. I just, I can't stand it. It bores me. It's tedious. So if somebody says to me like, I'll go shopping with you. I'll be like, thank you. Because maybe it'll make it less painful. And so like a lot of guys

just don't like the shopping experience. And so, you know, I'll wear the same things over and over again. it means I don't have to go buy new ones. And so if someone is helping there, that's a, I'm open to it. But, you know. Yeah. But right to say what you said, like, of course I like knowing what, if I'm dating somebody, what he likes to see me in. I just wouldn't be like, hey, go online and buy me some stuff.

I don't even know. He couldn't afford to buy me anything. So I didn't be going. Anyways, I derailed the sex conversation. But, um, no, I think we were. Yeah, I think we could. I mean, I'm glad that you, I'm glad we talked about that. And we wrapped it up.

That was the other end of our sandwich was the sex stuff. Sex stuff. Yeah. All right. Well, this was really wonderful. And I read your book last night and I think it's really helpful. So tell people where they can find you, your website, your podcast, everything and consume your writing. So it's guywinch.com, G-Y-W-I-N-C-H.com. We'll give you links to my talks, the podcast, articles, books in all the languages and everything. The podcast is with Lori Gottlieb, who you had last week. And we do live therapy sessions, which is always fun to listen to. And by the way, you don't have to send a boyfriend to. therapy anymore. You can just send them to a podcast. I love that. It will do the trick a lot of the time. Amazing. That's so great. We're so lucky to have all these resources. I know. So thank you so much. Yeah, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. And you guys know where to find everything that we do. You can shop our product line at vibes only.com and you can download the app on Android or iPhone. And again, there are these free features so you can get in there even if you don't have a subscription.

And we hope that you subscribe, follow Vives only at Vives Only on Instagram. And that's the handle on Twitter as well. Girls Gotta eatpodcast.com for everything you need. Girls got to eat podcast on Instagram. Ash Hess is my handle on everything. Raina.combe on Instagram. Tickets go on sale next week. So save the day for the holiday show in New York on December 15th. And we'll see you next week. Have a good week, guys. Bye.