Girls Gotta Eat - How to Enjoy Your Life Even if You Hate Your Job feat. Guy Winch

Episode Date: February 9, 2026

This episode is truly a game changer for anyone struggling with work stress, work life balance, or honestly, just having a job in general (so, everyone?) We are welcoming back psychologist and bestselling author Guy Winch to tell us how not to let work run (and ruin) your life. We discuss how to actually turn off after work, boundaries when you work from home, a ritual for curing the Sunday Scaries and not dreading Monday morning, learning how to appreciate your job (but also, when you should quit), and tips for vacationing better including his "triple dip" theory. We also discuss work stress in a relationship, including the effects on your sex life and how not to absorb your partner's work stress. Before Guy joins us, we have a celebratory (and awkward) moment for our 8-year anniversary, and we're recapping Rayna's tour kickoff and frigid trip to Florida. Enjoy! Follow Guy on Instagram @guywinch and get his new book Mind Over Grind. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for more. Thank you to our partners this week: Hers: Get the support that actually reflects your needs. Start your free intake at forhers.com. Vivrelle: Skip the waitlist and get your first month for free at vivrelle.com with code GGE. Audible: Listen to the Audible original comedy Big Age at audible.com/bigageseries. Shopify: Test out a new idea or get serious about launching a new brand at shopify.com/gge. Rocket Money: Reach your financial goals faster at rocketmoney.com/gge. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How is work impacting us in the workplace, but especially outside of the workplace? And what can we do to counter that and break free? This podcast is a Dear Media production. Hi, guys. Welcome back to another episode of Girls' Gotta Eat. Eight year anniversary episode. Wait, why is it the ninth? Well, it's this week.

Is it? Actually, it's the week of Valentine's Day, always. It wouldn't be the next week, the 16th? No. Because we started it before the 16th. We do this every year. You do this every year. You're sure it's not the 18th.

No. Yes, I'm sure. I think we started the podcast. I think we started on the 12th, February 12th. Okay. We go through this every year. We do this every year. Don't look it up, you guys.

You know what I even look up? What do you get ready for an eight year anniversary? Wood. Every year it's wood. Paper, no. What is it? Let's look. I have no idea.

Gold? It should be gold every year. If you give me wood for sticking with you this long, anyone. That's crazy. Eight year anniversary gift. If you could be wood, it better be a house. Bronze and pottery. Well, what do you know?

I got you a bronze pot. I'm just kidding. Okay, bronze and pottery. It symbolizes strength, durability, and the beauty of a well-crafted union. Wait, that's so cute. Modern gifts tend towards linen and lace. I did not do that for you.

I got you a box of lace. Well, we'll thank our partners tonight. talk about it so much. We'll just get into it. Thank you to VVRL. Skip the waitlist and get your first month for free at VreL.com with code GGE and Audible. Listen to the Audible, original comedy at big age at audible.com slash big age series and Shopify test out a new idea or get serious about launching a new brand at Shopify.com slash GGE. And thank you to hers. Get the support that actually reflects your needs. Start your free intake at for hers.com. And thank you to RocketMoney. Reach your financial goals faster at rocketmoney.com slash gge.

So we, this is our eight year anniversary. I just, do we simply for eight years fucking crazy. It really is. I mean, just two girls with a microphone and a dream. New faces. One microphone. New faces, but two girls with their original faces. We'd one mic.

We would do it. You were like a little apartment. All I need is one mic. Literally, we were gnaz back in my apartment in the East Village. Slurring. Because my MacBook Air couldn't accommodate two. Literally we bought two. Wait, that's funny.

I didn't know that. Well, I bought two of those giant Yeti mics, and they would not register as two. And I started doing a bunch of research. And they were just like, yes, too much to put in your little MacBook air. Wait, that's funny. I don't know how we like started. People are like, how do I start a podcast. I'm like, I don't Google it the way that we did.

That's how I started a podcast. I don't know. No AI back then. Chat ChbD you couldn't tell me. Just old school internet dialing up to figure out how to do it. Well, thank you guys for eight amazing. years every day. I just can't believe I get to do this and I get to perform with my best friend two times a week and on the road. And it's just what an honor. Yeah, I'm about to Google AI.

When did girls go eat to start? It's going to weigh on me. I think it's the 13th. You know, you guys have been along on the ride and watched our friendship blossom over the years. If you're new around here, we were newer friends when we started this eight years ago. And it's just grown into something so incredible and we have our audience to thank above all. And of course, everyone who comes out to the shows and listens every week and supports us and the messages we get. And we just love you guys. Yeah, I love you. Thanks for letting us be a part of your life. Okay. Well, I love you. Okay. I'm very excited about this gift. Okay. I'm like so excited for you to open this. Okay. So I got this for you. It is actually from one of our partners. They're not a sponsor today, but it is from

Quince. I saw it and I was like, she has to have it. I know. Oh my God. So it's a necklace. It matches your engagement ring. Oh, my God. It's a ruby and a diamond. Raina, what the fuck? I'm sorry. You said you had a gift for me. And I was like, well, I didn't get you a gift. And you were like, oh, it's nothing. I thought you were giving me a gag gift.

You tricked me. You literally yesterday were like, it's like something stupid. I didn't say stupid. This Ruby necklace, you were like, I was just like, you're, what the fuck? I love this. Thank you. This is so perfect. And it's, I think, I didn't even know Quinn's sold stuff that was this expensive.

It's the most expensive thing on the website. What is happening? You have really deceived me. Yesterday I was like, well, I didn't get you. You were like, oh, it's literally nothing. It just, I can't even believe what I'm about to give you. Also, I'd be buying you a lot of jewelry, and it's kind of weird. It reminds me of like, who buys another woman, a trip to Paris?

Who brings with a little. Lesbians. I love this. Thank you. You're welcome. I just, I saw it. Oh, my God. This is like, exactly matches it.

It's just like gold diamond ruby. I was excited. I don't even know how to handle this. I wish I had you on record yesterday. Your full tone was, it's something so stupid. You're going to laugh when you see it. You said that shit.

You said you're going to laugh when you see it. Maybe laugh at how expensive it was. I don't know. We didn't talk about this. It's not 10 years. I'm going to take you to Paris. You're 10. This is some bullshit.

I don't even want to give you this. We weren't like supposed to get gift each other so you know like this was just an opportunity that I had to pick something out for you you have a shopping addiction you know that I've been cured of it I can't even believe this as well get this out of here I can't believe I'm going to give you this I feel like she shonks gonna be like I should have bought her that yeah that's what you're doing that's the reason you're just trying to always out to try to want up your husband I can't even believe this actually this is the gift bags from your wedding you brought me a gift bag from

your wedding. You have waterboarded me with content about these gift bags. You're like, you know what I'm going to do is give you another one? Oh my God. Okay. Because I was leaving the house. I was like, she probably does need another Azul candle.

Listen, I do need more Cheetos. This is why I don't have any Cheetos at home right now. I thought we were doing gag gifts. This fits the bill. No, I did need another gift bag. You want me a ruby and diamond necklace. Also, is this a custom segment? Quince paid for it.

Quince paid for it. Thank you for making the trip to be here with us. Oh my God. We are so excited you're here. I cannot wait to see these comments how much better of a friend you are than me. I saw that necklace and I was like, holy shit. It's like, it's her engagement ring. That's crazy.

That's so good. Thank you so much. Okay. Thank you for snacks. Happy anniversary. My gift to you is I've been hosting your tour. That is a gift. I love it.

For host pay. I haven't paid you at all. The club paid me a little bit. I texted you this morning like, I'll pay you. I'm going to pay you. I am. I'm going to do it. Okay, well, let's talk about the tour.

So I'm going to start. No, because I want to hype you as another part of your gift. We kicked off Rana's tour in Tampa and did a show in Miami. And, you know, I had seen a little bit of this, but not a lot. I haven't been to your New York shows. And so I have only seen 10 minutes tops that you did last year with me on my tour. And so to see it all come together, I mean, I am emotional talking about it. It was so hilarious.

It was so brilliant. It was really touching and just so funny and different. And so you. I mean, anyone who likes you on this show is just going to love to see this hour from you. And I just didn't, I don't want to say I didn't know what to expect. just to watch you get into the zone and your delivery. Like it's you, but it's a different version of you to see you up on the stage alone.

And it was just such a joy. And I got to sit next to your dad. And to watch him react to stuff was just the best part of the night. And Tampa was incredible and Miami was incredible. And I'll give you the floor. But I just really wanted to share with our audience how special it was. And those people who were in Tampa and Miami have seen the show and everyone else will see it too. And you guys should just obviously come out and get tickets.

Well, thank you for saying that. And I just, to have you with me was really so special. And we weren't necessarily going to kick it off in Tampa. We were going to kick it off in Madison. And I didn't know that you could be there with me. And so to like start it in Tampa and have you be with me for the first two shows just like meant a lot. And I didn't really want to talk about this too much before I started the tour. Because I want people to be like, what have I bought tickets to?

But like, I had never been on a stage for more than 15 minutes by myself. When I called our agent was like, I think I have this hour I've written. I think it's really different. And I want to go on a tour with it. it. And to talk on stage for 15 minutes has nothing to do with talking on stage for an hour, like to hold people's attention, to write something, start to finish. Like, I have been terrified on a level I've like never felt in my life. This was like genuine terror. I have not been sleeping. I was just like, what am I about to do? Can I do this? Like to walk on stage in front of 400 people

in Tampa by myself and talk for an hour has nothing to do with walking on stage with another person and talking for two hours in front of 4,000 people. Because like, I always have you for banter, if I need to take a break, if I need to pause, the energy of another person, it's like, I stop talking, it's over. Yeah. I just, I have truly never faced anything all by myself like this. And every accomplishment I've had in eight years is hours and it's with you. And I've just, I've never done anything like this on my own.

And just to share it with you is really special, but I just, I feel really proud of it. You should. And I felt so sick and crazy like, what, I truly like, what have I done? And if I don't do this, Ashley's not going to just do it for me. Like sometimes I'm like I was sitting there Just pop out, I'll take it from here. Right. Like late at night I was sitting there like, do I have an hour of content? And like it's better than I could have hoped for.

It is longer than I could have hoped for. I mean, it's so impressive. Even in three shows, I was like, I know what I want to tighten and change. And like our audience has just like spent money and time to just like trust me and show up. And so thank you guys. It feels like the greatest thing I've ever accomplished. I just, I'm so proud of it. You should be.

And it's so impressive. I mean, I don't know. the average person who doesn't perform or do comedy what they think about an hour. I think some people will be like, that's crazy. And some people are like, oh, it's not that much. But I just want to explain, like for a comedian to have an hour, is it takes years. And that's a good level you get to. You will ask someone, do you have an hour?

Are you doing an hour? You're in the road doing an hour. It's a thing. And it should take years. And, I mean, again, you just sat down and you wrote and you put your head down and you practice this around your house and you really took it so seriously. That's not what everyone does. I mean, people cultivate these jokes over, again, years and then they put it all together and they figure it out. Everyone has a different process. But it really is so impressive to put together

an hour in six months. I don't know. Thank you. And I really like, I studied this. Like everybody was laughing at me because I was like, I turned on every comedy special. Yours, Nikki Glazer, Taylor Tomlinson, and Hannah Burner, like our friends, I watched them. Like, how do they move? How do they speak? Like, what do they do with their bodies? I wrote this as like a start to finish story so people could like follow along. And it was hard to run this because I was like there's 50% of it.

I couldn't run it without the other 50% of it. So I couldn't do it until I got on stage. And when you walked off the stage in Tampa, I was like, oh no. It's go time. I'm scared. But like we got to Miami and I was like, I feel good. I feel like I'm in the groove. And it just, I feel really proud of it.

Our agent last night asked me like how the shows went. And I was like, what were you thinking? Well, I called you and I was like, I would like to do a 30 city tour. I've never been on stage more than 10 minutes and you were like, bu, bu, here's your tour. Like, what were you? I was like, this is insane that you did this. Yeah.

Like, it's crazy that you weren't like, Raina. I think you should start smaller. I think we should try five shows and Ziocos. He was like, yeah, no, say last, we got you. I mean, he's known us for eight years and he has seen you perform. He knows that you're a natural and he had faith in you. And we just, we have the best agent in the game. He said that you either were the biggest, like,

faker, like, fake confidence in the world, or I knew you got it. Either way, like, I knew you'd figure it out. But he was, when we got on stage at Carolines and you would never been on stage before in your life, not even so much as a talent show, he was like, what the fuck is about to happen? But he was probably like, I just got this. I don't know if that popped into his head at all, just like Raina's got it, but you do got it. Well, thank you.

And really, like, I say this a lot, but I just have to, like, give you your flowers. Because watching you on a stage, I'm like, man, her command of this is amazing. and you raised me and you raised me and sent me out to the world. And I just, I can't wait for the rest of this tour. I'm so excited. I have like 28 more stops or something. Two to hell, 20 more to go. Tomorrow night I'll be in Madison.

And then Wednesday night, I will be in Minneapolis for two shows. I cannot wait to be in Minneapolis. And just like make that city laugh. There are tickets left for the second show. And I have amazing openers with me on this one. And so Ashley won't be at that one, unfortunately, but she'll be at some other ones. Yeah.

Catch her on tour. We're planning it. It is so fun. It's so fun to open these, you know, and, you know, I feel bad for the person that has to go between us, but I'm just kidding. They were amazing. They were like, no. Brittany was amazing.

Matt was amazing. But it is just so nice to see you guys and like watch the excitement and not have to feel nervous that I have to do an hour. It's such a treat. I used to be able to get drunk, feel like, what's up, guys, leave? So anyways, that's all. I'll say thank you guys for coming. I mean, I finally am able to say out loud this is the most terrified I've ever felt in

my entire life. Holy shit. But like do things that scare you. run towards them. Like it will feel like the greatest accomplishment that you ever have in your entire life to accomplish to just climb that mountain, you know? Yeah. And we had our friend Alyssa's Bachelorette in Miami the same weekend.

It was all in one shot. And it was just like 50 degrees. I mean, it was shocking. And we had mentioned this on the snack, but they haven't had this low of attempt in like 100 years. I've never felt like that in my life. I've been going to Miami my whole life since I was a kid. and I've never not been warm.

You leave the airport. You're like, I'm hot. It feels so good. It, like, warms you from within. Like, you're just walking around and a bathing suit and flip flops. And it was so brutal. And she really had such a positive attitude. I mean, we went on this boat.

Like, I was just on the boat, like, fucking Jetu holiday energy, you know, like freezing, trying to make the best of it. And we just had some really fun girl moments where we stayed inside. And we, like, watched some reality TV. and we had fun dinners and things like that. But I just, I felt bad for her, but she really kept her spirits up. And I think she had a great time. She just wanted to, like, be with her girls.

And, but that was something else. I've never experienced that in Miami. We were, like, in sweats. I mean, she had a great attitude about it. I don't know how I would feel. If her and her sister, Jackie, they just planned so much and everything was outdoors and to, like, bring everybody down there. There was girls that were pregnant.

They got on flights and went down there. And to have most of the stuff you planned be, like, not outdoors in Miami. Like, some people would have had a real meltdown about that and it is like a testament to her to be like okay we have to do plan B and like I can get my head around plan B and still be happy yeah and she kind of had in her head already I mean she checked the weather but I just you know we love her and we're so excited for the wedding but it was really funny because there was talk about going to the club like we went to dinner at this place called mila it's a spot for sure we were talking about going to the club afterwards and I was like

we're not going to the club and I just kept quoting that line and knocked up where Craig Robinson is like you old she pregnant Because there's two pregnant women. Like, we're, what, we're going to show up to, 11? Just pregnant. Pregnant, old. Like, listen, I can party at the club and we look great. But I just kept thinking that, like, you can't come here tonight.

It's like, you're pregnant, she old. No, I was like, we are team go home. We're team get in bed. That's what I'm trying to do. And I was, honestly, I love a group that just leans into going home. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. I mean, we did do a club night.

for my third bachelor's, but the other nights, actually, we got a little wild on all of them, but it just, it was nice. And we played that game Fish Bowl, which I'm sure you guys know it, but we played on New Year's Eve and we played it again. It's like my favorite game. It's my favorite. I had never heard of it until the summer when I played at Megan's house. Okay, so basically everyone that's playing writes down a person place or thing, people are

really funny. Like deep cut celebrities are funny, but it can be anything. It can be a fucking sandwich. It can be, what, Shashonk on New Year's Eve, Nepal. I think people write the clues sometimes before they understand what the game is. Because I think celebrities and famous figure is fictional or nonfiction is the easiest way. A hundred percent. So you throw all these things into a fish bowl and then you have two teams and your team

has to guess what it is. And the first round is you can describe it however you want without saying it. The second round is you get one word. The third round is you have to act it out. And then a fourth round that some people play, some people don't is you have to make a sound, like a just a sound. And the thing is, is that you know what's in the bowl after the first round. So you really need to pay attention.

But it's still hard to figure out with one word and acting it out charade style. It is so fun. And Rain and I being on the same team is a real cheat code. Like New Year's Eve, people are like, oh, this isn't fair. They are locked in. They can read each other's minds. And so when we pick teams at The Bachelorette, I was like, Rayne have to be in the same team.

And everyone just thought it was like a cutie thing. And I'm like, no, it's a cheat code. Thanks. How we're going to win. Yeah. It's so fun. It's so fun. And like, you can play a bunch of rounds.

I can't believe, like, you're usually so drunk by the time you get to the sound round, and people are good at it. Yeah. It's shocking. Yeah, and it's just funny. Like, I don't know. I made mine, like, a little edgy. Like, we played a second round with just people, and I did Stephen Hawking.

Actually, acting out of Stephen Hawking. I was like, oh, my God. Fuck Stephen Hawking. It was an Epstein Island. I don't care. Also, that was the day that the Daniel Bernstein news dropped, and three people put Daniel Bernstein in the face. We kept picking out Daniel Bernstein.

Yeah, I know. And then I was like, we need to replace the Daniel Bernstein and I put in Erica Kirk. Somebody swung in on a stripper pole. Someone popped up from underneath the floor with sparklers. Pretending to mourn their husband. Playing Nikki Minaj. So anyway, that was really fun. And then we did just want to give an update from last Monday's episode about the wrong number texts.

Raina was getting these texts. we figured out that it was probably from a dad and it was about his kid and it was someone you went on a date with what forever ago when he was texting. You guys can go back and listen to me. He was texting like it was about his son's school or his son's daycare.

But at the beginning text just said, he was just like, hey, we're running late. I just thought this was a work thing. Yeah. So I was like, I don't care about this. And he kept texting. But then after five unanswered text, you were like, you got to text them.

So I said, hey, I think you have the wrong number. And he said it's my son's like caretaker is named Rayna. also and he must to swap the last names by accident or something. I mean, it is so like a man, though, to just keep sending text messages that are unresponded to and never think, like, maybe I got the wrong place. And a lot of people are commenting on the stores that were texting me. They were kind of like, you're both right.

Like, it is personal, but it is automated. I don't know. Just people had a lot to say. The one you sent that you read me was not automated. The girl talked to you said, like, good luck with your show. I mean, I get texts from stores all the time. They're clearly, they say, hey, Raina, but like, they're automated. made it. Yeah. So it's like, I don't know. Let's just be like that. It's just be like that. A couple people also

messes me that they were teachers and that there's like apps that people text to. And it looks like a real phone number. It's like a school automated thing. But yeah, this guy just got his nanny and me mixed up. And I mean, I want to give a man flowers for doing anything with his kid. You know, like good for him. And yeah, it's just like a man to be like, sure, I'll just let it fly. I'll just keep texting into the ether. Okay, well, we have a great episode today with Guy Wynch. We love him. He's back for his three-peat, right? Just like NEDRA was last week. So these are some of our absolute faves and a really impactful episode. We think you guys are going to love it. But before we get into it with him, I just want to talk about health a little bit. So let's have a real talk about our health. This is not a hot take, but it is the number one thing I value my life. You know, if I'm not healthy, I can't do anything. This morning, buzz, buzz, I'm healthy. I'm healthy. No, but I can't excel at work. I have my personal relationships. area of my life. It really, if I'm sick or if I'm in pain or I'm just feeling off, it is hell for me. So we're going to talk about hers, but I'm going to talk about my personal experience recently. So I went to the doctor recently, and I had like a laundry list of stuff like to talk to her about as you age. It's just like my butt, my boobs. You lead with butt. You walked in with butt.

We know I'm always having issues back there. Buffy agent. And then yesterday I went back. I got blood work because I had a little bit of issue with my thyroid, but they thought it was just related to the supplements that I take because biotin can send your thyroid out of wax. So my thyroid is normal. But I got blood work yesterday after we got Botox. I was like, I've been poked and prod it all day. I trained in the morning so I could go in the afternoon and get more needles. And I got it all back and everything like looks pretty good.

But I just think about this all the time. Like going to the doctor is not always so easy. And I had a situation where I went to a dermatologist and I diagnosed myself. Like remember I was in there and I was like waiting for her to say the thing. And then finally I was like, maybe it's this. And she was like, oh, yeah, I do think it's that. And you had a nightmare situation recently. No, I just, I, because I am getting older also, like you should have like a full panel

of tests. You should have blood work. You should check your thyroid. Like you said, ultrasounds, like anything, mammograms, like everything that you need done is you get older, check everything. And I went thinking I'd be there for like, I don't know, I budgeted like an hour. I was there for like two and a half hours. I was in the waiting room forever.

And I'm like so mad by the time I got in there. And like, I don't want to take it out on anybody. It's like nobody's fault. people are like working hard, but like to get your health checked and to like spend it this time feeling like I'm being kind of taking advantage of or ignored was like so disappointing. Yeah. And we really deal with so much as women, especially as we age, like you said. I mean, like every year when I go in for an exam, it's a longer list of stuff we need to talk about. I mean, perimenopause, of course, we're coming up on. And menopause changes in our body,

our energy levels, anxiety, acne. The list goes on and on. I mean, even looking at my pain, from all the blood work I got done. I was like interested in what all these things mean and how they do affect your energy day to day and all the different aspects of your life. And these things have historically not always been at the forefront of the conversation. So sometimes it feels like you really have to take your health into your own hands. And, you know, we have all the respect to the world for everybody in the medical field. But sometimes it feels like you're not getting the answers that you need or you're being told that everything's fine and it's not. You have to go to a second opinion and you really have to kind of take control. And so we do feel like it is improving in terms of women's health. And so we do feel like it is improving in terms of

women's health being more at the forefront of conversation, which is awesome. And hers is in the conversation with their women-first approach. We are so excited to partner with hers. They are a positive force out to provide access to care. Women deserve by addressing key tension points of an outdated health care system. So hers is an online health and wellness company where you can get a clear picture of your health with convenient access to in-depth, holistic lab testing. And then if prescribed, you'll have access to a not one-size-fits-all treatment plan for your needs.

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And you just pick it and it shows up. Like, it's so surreal. Really so incredible. Like, sometimes it's like, how did she get that? Right. Vibral. Maybe she's born with it. Maybe it's Vrrel. And they just gave us an amazing offer, which expires at the end of the month.

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All right, guys, we are very excited to welcome back a guest to the show today. He's an author and an internationally renowned psychologist whose viral TED Talks have garnered over 35 million views. He advises startups in the mental health space. He's worked with the U.S. and UK governments. and he has created emotional health programs for Fortune 500 companies. His work has been featured literally everywhere in New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Time, tons of major outlets. He is the co-host of the Amby-nominated, Dear Therapist podcast,

with three-time former guest, Lori Gottlieb. His new book, Mind Over Grind is a modern deep dive into burnout, emotional cost of work and work-life boundaries. Please welcome back to the show, Guy Winch. Thank you for having me. It's great to be back. We love that. Third time?

Third time? Yeah. We don't do that a lot. We don't do three-peats a lot, so we welcome back. Neither do I, you know, so the feeling's mutual. Look at that. What an elite club. Yeah, I mean, less than 10 people, less than five people, probably.

So the first time we had you on, heartbreak and rejection. We talked a lot about that. I always write about fun things. Okay. I like both of them a lot. Rejection is really like something that just, it applies to everybody. And then how to complain better was an amazing topic. The complaint sandwich.

I remember all those fun takeaways. Changing the topic. So this is a really. departure from dating, relationship stuff you've talked about before, you're talking about like workplace and not just workplace dynamics, but how to function better in the workplace, mental health. So why the pivot? Well, because work has really taken over our lives. And I would just see it with the people I'm working with that work has kind of invaded so

many aspects of their lives, some of which they realize, many of which they didn't. And then I started looking at the research, and the research was slightly alarming because there are all these studies that show all these aspects of our personality that get amputated because of our devotion to work or because we have a toxic workplace or because we're just very, very driven. So I wanted to like pull that all together and see how is work impacting us in the workplace, but especially outside of the workplace. And what can we do to counter that and break free? I love this. And we talk about this. We have a friend who her fiance is doing his residency and just the level of stress.

I remember one time we were talking to her, like, how do you not absorb his stress? And he's a wonderful partner. And I think about this with my husband. Like he's stressed or down about work. And he goes there every day. You know, like what you do for most of your life, how can it not impact your home life partner friendships? Right.

Well, first of all, moods are contagious to begin with. And so when somebody comes back, even if they're trying very hard not to show it, it leaks. It's clear. We also know that there studies that show that when one partner is really chronically stressed, the other partner will start developing symptoms of burnout. That's how much that transfer happens. And so it's very, very difficult. And unless people know how to leave it at the doorstep or leave it in the office, as it were, then it's going to leak. And it's going to impact them, their families, their kids, all of it. Even if you have a pretty

stress-free job, to come home to a person that's stressed out, you're already bringing your own stress into the relationship, and then to come home to a person that's unhappy, hates the way they spent their day, isn't happy with their salary, or what they're doing all day long, how could it not deeply impact you? You know, we get very preoccupied

with work, because this is where we spend the majority of our time. You know, our unconscious mind thinks work is the most important thing to us because it just looks factually. Our unconscious mind is kind of primitive. It goes, that's where you spend most of your time. That's what pays the bills

and that's what gives you the security, the food, all of those things. That must be the most important thing. So when you come home, you're really preoccupied with work and then when your kid is running to you or when your partner comes up to give you a hug, it feels like an intrusion. It feels like I'm not ready for that yet

and you freeze up or you tense up and they can feel it. And it does a number, you know, and it creates conflict in the home. And so there are all these things that happen. And again, some of us are aware of some of it, but we're really not aware of all of it. I remember, like, as a kid, my mom was a single parent.

She got us up in the morning, drove us to school, worked all day long, came home, I'd immediately cook dinner and do homework with us. And she, like, wouldn't let us come down to the kitchen. It was like, a little, it was in a great environment. She was like, I want to be here, I want to cook, I want to be left alone. And as a child, it was really upsetting to me

because I wanted to, like, hang with my mom. But now as an adult, I understand, like, how she felt. Like, can I just have 10 minutes to myself? But it permeated our nights, our evenings. everything all the time. That's right. Kids don't understand it. Kids, I know. I think about that. Like, what kid doesn't have that memory of dad coming home, especially for like a finance dad, you know, that comes stress or working all the time. They're barely home. And I brought up my husband, I want to say, too, too, too, too, too much, too, too much, too, too,

to have sex? There's research about that too, actually, that it doesn't just impact your sex life. It impacts your sex drive. And it impacts the sex drive of the partner. Because, again, it's not very appetizing when someone's a ball of stress. It doesn't turn you on either. And you don't want to intrude in that way. And so it really impacts so many areas of our lives.

And again, when you say it, yeah, it makes sense. But people don't understand the comprehensiveness of how badly this is impacted. them and their quality of life and their relationships. So I'm curious, like, in your research and interviewing people about today's work culture, because Ashley and I both had jobs for a long time, but we've almost for a decade worked for ourselves. We've been the bosses. We've been entrepreneurs.

And I worked at Groupon and Amazon, huge companies, but it's been very, it's been a long time since we weren't the boss and in charge of our own schedules and things like that. So what do you see in today's, like current work culture, like, that people are upset about, stressed out about, or is it everything? Look, I think what we see is that work stress and burnout keep going up and peaking over the past five years. And that's interesting because that's even as the awareness of it has been going up too. And people's awareness of the importance of work-life balance has been going up. So when people are more aware of it and trying to do more about it, how come it's still peaking?

Because the work culture has gotten really harsh. You know, there's just a phenomenon of job hugging right now where people are just staying in the job they have because you know, it's just too difficult to find another one. And who knows if that one's going to be any better? Right. Things are very, very difficult in the workplace right now at all, all levels, really. Have you seen, you know, since COVID, people aren't going to the office as much, and I really thrived in an environment where I had to be at work.

I really liked the social aspect of it. I like that I had somebody to take a walk with and go to lunch with. And after work, I did, like, happy hours. I really enjoyed that. Have you seen, like, not going to work impacting people positively or negatively? Well, first of all, there is a big return to office kind of shift. that's happening in a lot of big companies and a lot of corporations that they're trying to get people back into the office. But the problem with erasing the boundary between work and home is that

it erased the boundary between work and home. And so, you know, I think before the pandemic, somebody would have thought twice about emailing their employee at turn a clock at night. And I don't think they're thinking twice about it because especially if they're working from home, well, they're, you know, it's where they work. And so I think those boundaries have become even more fluid. And even our expectation of it, like, well, if I work from home, it's fair. No, it's not. And the research is that we do about eight hours on average of emails after hours a week. That's an extra day, an extra day of work unpaid, right?

Or unpaid in terms of overtime because of how much that's happening. Well, and when you say leave it at the door, there is no leaving it at the door when you're home. You're inside the door. So, because I think of you would work and maybe, I mean, A shitty commute sucks, but at least there's a time between work and home to leave it or let stuff go when's the workday over? How do you separate it between then and whatever it is you're doing? Your plans that night, your partner gets home, that type of thing. You know, it's interesting. When I give talks to companies, I always ask the audience,

tell me what time your workday ends. And they always give me a time. It's 7 o'clock, it's 6 o'clock, it's 8 o'clock, and that is not when your workday ends, whether you're working from home or not. Your work day ends when you stop thinking about work. And for a lot of people, that extends the work day a lot. Because either they're doing emails or they're just preoccupied and ruminating about work. So they are thinking about work sometimes all evening, all night. And that is how long your work day is. And what that does is you are in fight or flight.

your body is activated when you were at work because of the tension, because of the difficult hostility of the current workplace, like 90-something percent of people, you know, encounter incivility, which sounds like a mild thing. But when someone's really rude to you, you're going to ruminate about that when you get home. I can't believe she said that. I can't believe he did that. And so your work day just keeps going on and on. Your body and your mind don't have an opportunity to set and reset to calm down. So you're like fight or flight all the time. And that's the chronicity. of the stress that's leading to burnout. We start pretty early, Ash and I both do, and now she gets up really early, so she's up in the mornings with me. But we start pretty early, but like I try to draw the line at a certain hour because I know I'm not going to be productive after that time.

I know it's actually just better for other people if I just get up at 6 a.m. and do it instead of, you know, 6 p.m. or 7 p.m. But when other people message us at night and they need something from us, I and she both feel like somebody, other people are working, so we should acknowledge them and be present for them.

And there's that, like, internalized pressure to be like other people are doing this, I should too? I mean, I don't have a lot of hard boundaries with work because I understand the balance of running the company, being able to live my life however I want it. And so that kind of comes with the territory that I'm kind of always on. But I don't know.

I still know how to take a break, but I've learned to accept that the benefits outweigh the negatives in terms of being the boss, I guess. So I don't know. But when you're responding at night, you're activated again. I know. You're at work again. You're not doing whatever you should be doing at night in terms of relaxing,

having couple time, you know, doing whatever the things. I know. And so, and I try very much, especially since doing this research and realizing, yikes, I've been guilty. Two, I will schedule the emails. You know, I won't send it to somebody after six or seven o'clock because I feel like then they'll feel compelled to respond and here I am being hypocritical because I'm saying that's not okay.

So I'll just schedule them. And I'm much more productive in the morning, too. So I will respond to all of them in the morning. I guess Ashley and I just always want to tread lightly and acknowledge that, like, you know, we're entrepreneurs and there's, you know, tradeoffs that come with that. Yes. But we try to not, we don't hold our employees to that. Exactly.

And I'm with you. I just like, I put the scheduling emails, you know. But I want to say entrepreneurs are really at risk because of that kind of thinking. Yeah. Because they feel like, well, we get to control our own schedules. I'm also self-employed. Yeah. Right? So I get to control my own schedule. So surely I don't have to be, you know, difficult about it. I can respond to the email or not. But that's the slippery slope because then I find that like I'm checking my phone. I'm not present in whatever I'm doing. I'm actually, ooh, and that email was actually quite important. Now, there's very little that couldn't wait till the morning. I mean, it's truly very, very few things, if any, that couldn't wait till the morning. But the entrepreneurial mindset is must do all the time. And entrepreneurs are really at risk.

for overworking, for burnout, and for really ruining their quality of life and necessarily because they feel, well, I have the freedom, but, like, then, yes, then use it in a good way. Yeah. I'm not a role model. I want to say in terms of, I think a lot of things you could look up to me, but work-life balance is probably not one. Ashley doesn't have an off-switch, and it's fascinating to me. I mean, she will send fully coherent. I mean, before she moved in with her husband, I mean, she would say, I would be

up every morning to like full screens of text messages. But like at midnight stuff, she was thinking about and my creative ideas. It's wired that way. Never turns off. And like last night also we were going to go to we had 730 dinner plans. And like I was texting her up until the minute she picked me up about this podcast we were going to go on. We didn't need to answer it that that minute. And we talked about work to the minute we walked in the door at the restaurant. But then I sometimes I'm like, I can't help who I am. My head hits the pillow at night and I think of all these creative ideas. It is wild. And I like the articles that come out that are like,

night people just embrace you. You know, like, I can't explain it. I'm laying in bed and like the jokes come to me. I have to put them in my notes. I don't know. My brain is just like,

oh, you're a night person. You're a morning. Yes. And you're a night. So then how are your mornings? Are your mornings more restful? Do you at least take a slow start to the day? Or do you jump in right away?

I have a morning routine. I really do try to get up and not immediately fire up my brain with emails and Instagram. and have my coffee and do the whole thing. I take it pretty seriously. As long as you get it somewhere. Yeah, I do. For some people it's the morning.

For some people it's the evening. Yeah. Yeah, I like to take that seriously. And I think, you know, I'm getting better about saying, I need this time, don't bother me. You are. No, you really, you've changed a lot. This isn't about me.

I brought up work life balance, and we have this on our outline. Is it a myth? Which I want to dive into. I believe that the work life balance has starts in your head, not in, because people tend to think of it like, I'm going to add an hour of yoga. And I'm like, that's okay.

But were you stressed at yoga? But yeah, are you really focused? I mean, hopefully if you're doing yoga, you can actually focus on the poses or not. But it starts in your head. It starts with where is the clarity. Where does work end? And you begin.

I sometimes give this thought experiment to people. If your work disappeared tomorrow, what would be left? How much of you is left and what would that you be about? And for a lot of people, they'll be like, uh, uh, I don't, I don't know. but it's like, then why aren't you giving oxygen to some other parts of your personality to your experience to life that's not encompassed by work?

Now, in your case, specifically, you bring a lot of your personality and a lot of those things to your work. So you're not like, you know, but people who work in corporate offices, you know, they don't get to be funny. They don't get to be silly. They don't get to be goofy. They don't get to bring a lot of their personality. Can you do anything you want to do.

That's just you do what other people want you to do. Right. But it's like, where do you bring in the parts of your service? that you used to have, that used to nourish you, that are meaningful parts of who you are. When you can't express them during the day and then you're too fatigued at night, and that's the part about amputating these parts of ourselves,

because become very narrow people. So, like, people, millennials, like Ashley and I were raised, like, hustle culture is the thing, and girl bossing is the thing. Sleep when you're dead is the whole thing. And, like, your job is what defines you. And so much of that I do I love and I'm really proud of, but like that is exactly how we were built.

And so how do you suddenly tell somebody, don't be like that? It's not don't be like that. It's not your job defines you, but what else defines you? Can there be aspects that are not about the job? And maybe for some people, it's like, no, I get to express all of myself in my work and that's okay. But for a lot of people, I said to them, well, what were you like before you got into the career? What did you enjoy doing in college? What were, you know, people who knew you before this, what would they say about you that we

don't see because of where work has taken you now and not just work, but, you know, parenting obligations and all those things that really kind of take up all the space of the day and all the oxygen that you have. And for some people, they don't even realize what they miss. They just got used to being so narrow and going from this to this to this to this. And then what is life about really? Like, what are you going to remember? And if your job is very meaningful and very satisfying, that's great. But for a lot of people, it's just work, work, work. But what are you remembering? If you you know, the end of the year comes and you do a review of the year, what are the moments that stood out for you? And are they all about work? What about outside of work? And what made them

special? And it's usually relationships. It's usually experiences. It's usually self-discovery, something meaningful. And some of that can happen at work, but a lot of it doesn't. I like this exercise of like if work went away, what would be left or like, what did you used to enjoy? Because like, if you said that to me, a lot of it would be cooking. And like Ashley is very good. You and your husband and like spend like an hour and hour and a half like cooking dinner. I don't hear from you. You really do. I know when you're doing that because you put the phone down.

Like it's, that's great. It's important to like, like pull the car into a parking spot and just be like, I'm going to be here for a little bit, be present. And I think if we strip this all away, like I would,

I just, I love cooking. It's so important to me. Going out to eat, restaurants, traveling. Like that's the stuff that like enriches my life. That's what would be there.

I think of someone who works for us who's watching this now, so I hope I don't miss speak on her. And she lives in New York, so she works from home. And she expressed us. She was missing a little bit of community with not going into an office and collaborating with other people and just being home alone. And I think she was maybe wanting a more creative outlet too in different ways.

And now she is taking up some art classes. And I think it is fulfilling her. I feel so we were talking about this while she's editing this. But that really puts her around people and fulfills her in that way too. And I just love to hear that from her. That she kind of thought of what am I maybe missing in the. the workday that I can, that I like my job, I want to keep my job. We're so lucky to have her, but what else can I do in my life? That is such a key thing, though, that she did, which most

people don't do. She actually paused to ask the question. What is missing for me? Okay, so more socializing, more this is missing for me. And then how can I address those needs? So for her, it's taking that class, being around people, doing something creative. And this is part of what I'm saying, like pause to ask the questions. Don't be on autopilot all the time. And when we're stressed out, our default is the autopilot. And we're going to fly into a cliff because, you know, we're not thinking. We're just getting from one task to the other, to the other, to the other. So like you've, we talked a lot about like, you know, how work affects you. And the book also talks a lot about how it hijacks, like, your mental health and your morality sometimes and your

personal relationships. But I guess before we move on to how to manage this, maybe we should ask you, like, how do you decide to stay in your job or make a change? And why do you not talk in the book about how to negotiate at your current job, like boundaries and talk to your, you have a lot of like good stuff, especially in the intro, about like why that's not what this book is about. Primarily because in the current workplace, which is a very challenging one, there are companies and there are many of them in which if you start pushing back about these things, you're going to get listed on the next round of cuts or layoffs.

And I've seen it happen time and again where somebody opened their mouth. And it's like, well, great, we have cuts coming. now we know who to put. Yep. I felt like an Amazon. I didn't drink the Kool-Aid. I wasn't like going to go along with everybody. And I was punished for it.

So, anyway. So, and look, that's not all companies. Totally. Because I can't tell, and because some people often can't tell until they try and then they find out, I didn't want to go there because I didn't want to set people up. So I'm not saying to you, this is how to negotiate, this is how to do that. There are other books that do that. Totally.

I'm not, you know, I'm not doing that. But in terms of when to leave, if you follow the advice in the book and you're making adjustments, it should lower your stress, it should enrich your life outside of work, and it should create more work-life balance. So do those things first. But if despite all of that, you're just unhappy, you're miserable, things aren't changing, then you really should consider leaving. Now, again, don't leave until you've gotten a new job. People make that mistake all the time. Oh, I quit. And then it's like, oh, that's not good. You're more hireable when you're in a job already. It's less depressing to interview for jobs when you're in a job already. But, you know, for some people,

it's just so bad that they really should consider doing something else. Because again, this is where you spend most of your life. So your quality of life is being severely impacted. And the insolity you mentioned and disrespect, that just, I think it starts to rewire who you are. If you feel genuinely disrespected every day at work, to me, it's a different level of just being overworked or stressed. it's, I mean, even sometimes I'll be in a restaurant or wherever, and the way someone talks to a server, I'm like, how the, and they just have to take it, you know, like, I just am like all day to deal with, that's a small example. And, you know, you're dealing with a customer or not your boss. I mean, there's so many different levels of mistreatment. But it really, I think it starts to break you.

Yeah, there's bullying. Yeah. There's harassment. And, you know, for women, there's a lot of these aggressions that, you know, being talked over, being, you know, like every time they express something that would, a man would get applause for, they get penalized for it. There's research that shows, for example, they did a study in which they had people read an assessment of two workers. One of them completed all the assignment, well, in the allotted time, and the other worked overtime for it. Who would they consider more competent?

Well, the person who worked overtime. because they showed more dedication but they needed more time to do it. I would pick the person who got a time and when it's women then the women, you know, the woman who did it on time and competently

and effectively and efficiently also was judged as less competent and able than the man who took longer to do the same task. Because she's lazy because she got it done quicker. The task was completed correctly. In other words... I don't even understand it. I'd be like, you're slow.

You're not hired. But that's the judgment. There's biases against women. There's biases against all kinds of people in the workplace. And they leak out in all these insidious ways. And you're dealing with it on the daily basis. And so that's a stressor in and of itself. You have to have your defenses up all the time to deal with this rude boss

and this one who's doing this to you in a meeting when you're talking rather than quite, you know, that kind of these gestures of dismissiveness and rudeness and the hostility. There are a lot of companies, for example, that in which, many, in which they have mergers, right, or takeovers. And now you have two departments doing the same thing, and one of them is going to survive, but until they decide who, they have to work together, those meetings are horrific. And they happen, and that's the daily life now for the next six months or whatever.

People are dealing with terrible hostilities and terrible tensions all day. It's a true battlefield. I had a corporate job, and I remember, like, everyone would sit in the same, like, pit together. And, like, whoever left first, I left first, always. And it was, look, I was done. I was done working. I got everything done. But it was like, who can stay the longest?

Who can be the most miserable? Who can stay until 8 p.m. on a Tuesday? And I was just like, I was looked down upon, but I was like, I'm done though. That is so funny. Like when I would leave work, I'd be like, buy losers. I got plans. What are you guys? It's dark out.

Get out of here. Yes. But then it costs you. I mean, that's what the research is. People are not employing good judgment and saying like, well, actually, she got her work done. Good for her. they're like, well, she's not showing education. Yeah.

That's how I always say that. I got looked at. I felt like that in one of the few like full-time normal type jobs I had where I was like, I'm really good at this. I get my work done quickly and my reward is more work. I should be able to go home. And that's how we treat our employees. Like if you're done, fuck off and go to the park, you know, not let me figure out what else I

can give you to do. You know, I think we trust people to manage their workload and their deadlines and we have a great team. But I never understood that. Like, I'm done. Can I just take a little time off because I'm so good at this? And instead, it's like, no, do more. The tension in the room when I would leave first, I could feel it.

It was uncommon. No one liked me because of it. But I was like, I don't need to be here any longer. Also, all you were just on social media or whatever you're doing to pretend, you're working. G-chat, yeah. Yes. Okay, so you're going to stay at your job, let's say. And it's not a need to get out of there immediately.

Maybe it's fine. You know, I think a lot of people's job is fine. and a lot of people realize it's not perfect. I'm stressed here and there, but it could be worse, and it's fine. I'm not being mistreated, but I'm still bringing it home. I'm still stressed and I don't want to be. So what are some of the techniques and self-talk? So first of all, I believe you should have a ritual to transition from work to home.

And by transition, I mean, your brain needs to transition. Okay. Because, again, you need to come off the high alert of your fight-of-flight response that you're in during the workday. And the ritual, and I say ritual, because rituals tend to have deeper meaning and our brain really responds to them. And so if you have a commute, so it can involve music, it can involve listening to certain playlists, or podcasts, for example, fun podcasts that make you smile and laugh, even as you learn things.

But the more senses you involve, the deeper the ritual resonates. So change your lighting when you get home. Change your clothes. We're very sensitive to the clothing we wear. You know, there's studies, for example, that looked at, in one study, they had people do a very boring task, and half the people were in a very cold room, and half the people were in a regular room. In the cold room, there was a lab coat, and they said to them, oh, if you're chilly, put on the lab coat, and they made the room very chilly on purpose. And so they had the same task, but when people put on the lab coat, they were much more accurate and much more detailed focus because it made them think like they're scientists. So the clothing we wear really impacts us, like the power suits, the this or that.

has an impact. So have clothing that you wear for work and have different clothing, even if it's both t-shirts that you wear when you finish work that you associate with not working. And then sense, have, you know, certain candles, certain sense, certain, you know, like aromatherapies, whatever the thing is, the more senses you can involve in this ritual, you will train your brain to the minute you start and know, oh, we're coming down now. We're switching out of that mode. We don't work out to the ritual. Yeah, well, try not to. When you have emails to do, which you will, you have to frame them because stress is very psychological. It depends on our framing of it.

So if you think about emails as work kind of intruding or still working, then you're still at work. You have to think of it as defining what the task for the evening is. And the task for the evening might be veg out and watch a movie. But then what the emails are are on intermission. You are taking a break from the task of life. So you're framing it as a break rather than as work, a continuation of work. And again, that framing in your head allows you to then disengage afterwards and get back into relaxed mode. I like this ritual idea.

I do it every day. I call my restorative walk. I do it around 4 o'clock every day. I actually change before. I do it every day. I put sweat pants on. I take off my jeans if I'm wearing jeans. See, that's exactly right.

I put it something comfortable. And I walk around Venice. I take an hour. I go to the beach if it's light out. I feel like a different person when I get home. It's one hour. But it really is the transition. I feel like the same way when I do my walk.

And it's just like when I get them from the walk, I'm not. I mean, I should be. You know, like, that's the way I think about it. It's the same with my workout. Whatever it is, because then I shower. So it's like I do the thing. I shower. I get into my clothes for the evening or if I plan or if I'm just veggieing out.

And like that really is the transition. I think that we both do it as well as we can for people who work for themselves. Yes. You're signaling your brain. that I'm done with this part of the day and I'm starting that part of the day. Even if it still involves some work, showers are great.

They're very, very immersive. So they're a great way to kind of shift your mindset. But those rituals are really useful. I think that's really helpful. And I do regenerate after that. I am able to like tuck back into emails a little bit for the night. And it doesn't feel as like important, I guess, or stressful. So I love the idea of changing.

Always change. Oh my gosh. To be like on the couch in your work clothes? I had a friend that would do that. She would be, she'd be like, come over. Let's, like, watch something. She would be, like, in her work clothes. I'm like, you haven't changed?

It's like eight o'clock. You're wearing, like, hard pants. Like, this is crazy. So I always thought she was a serial killer. But that's weird behavior. So anything else, like, end of the day. How do we separate? Yes, you, again, the day ends,

the work day ends when you stop thinking about work. So you really have to detach from work. Again, even if you have to dip in once in a while, you want to feel that you're really detached. And you want to label what you're doing, even if it's nothing, as your personal time. Now, if you're doing something, then it's dinner with friends. And our brain takes one thing very stupidly seriously,

that is calendars. So rather than a blank space in the evening, write personal time, have a different color for it or write whatever the plans are. Because then you're telling your brain, no, this is about personal time now. Okay. And again, brain loves calendars.

I don't know why. We didn't evolve with calendars, but the brain still responds to them very well. Okay. So, you know, writing that in your calendar is reminding you, like, that's the task now is to actually live your life. Okay, but let's talk about talking about work. Before we break the rituals, I want to talk about Sunday night rituals.

Like, how do we not get Sunday scary? Okay, well, I want to come back to that. I want to talk about talking about work at home. Yeah, okay. Sunday night. Sunday night. How do we not talk? Everyone has that anxiety that creeps in.

So a lot of people get, right, the dread on Sunday of like, The work week is about to begin. First of all, what that shows you is how stressful your job is, that your mind, in anticipatory dread of what is to come, is stressing you out just by the anticipation of it. So when that happens, you want to do a couple of things. First of all, you want to try and create a task on Monday morning before work. That is something enjoyable.

Okay. And then so on Sunday night, the next thing up on the agenda, is not work, but this task. It can be breakfast with a friend. It can be working out. It can be like, I start Monday mornings with an hour of your friend painting or doing whatever,

or going for a very refreshing walk. Something you really enjoy that you can look forward to doing. It creates this buffer zone. So your brain doesn't perceive the next thing up is work. The next thing up is that thing. And you also want to tell yourself that. You want to message yourself like,

oh, I love Monday mornings because I get to do this. Listen to girls got to eat. People, we've gotten that for years. Yeah. They kick off their way. To bring it back to us, but we will never not do Monday because we're like, we want you to start your week with us. You know, like for people to say they wake up Monday morning and they get to look forward to our podcast is like an honor.

That's why we picked Monday. Yeah. I mean, that's great because that's literally what I mean. It's like if people are looking forward to the podcast and they can listen to it on Monday morning, I'm suggesting they listen to it on Monday morning before work. Mm-hmm. And start your week with something that you're looking forward. forward to that you enjoy, it really makes a difference because then it really balances out. Sunday arrives and I have to start the work week, but I get to listen to the podcast.

So that really matters. And it's these kinds of things that the layering, the buffer zone between the Sunday night and the Monday morning. The other thing is a lot of people go away for the weekends and then they have a drive back and they spend one to three hours in the car in traffic and by the time they get back, they're so irritable. And then they're then they have to go to work. So like there's no buffers on there. You're not, so try, if you have a week in place, that's great. But try and come back a little bit earlier and do something enjoyable.

We do that on Sunday night. We always do that on to do. Yeah, that's been a really great thing about being on the West Coast. I don't prefer to be like behind the rest of the world time-wise, but at least you gain the time back. So when I was on my tour this year, I really always wanted that first flight out on Sunday morning to get back by 10 a.m.

So I really mostly had breakfast with my husband Sunday and then just felt like we're fresh. It's like the travels are kind of behind me. But getting back Sunday night is so brutal. You're so right. Doing Monday morning. But I like really love this Monday morning ritual. And I know some people were thinking like, how am I going to manage that? I got to wake up at six, get into the office, whatever.

But if you can, like, I even love this coffee with a friend, like the workout class. It's really, I'm loving this. I mean, I'll sometimes go to bed. at night excited for my coffee in the morning. I'm just like... Yeah, me too. I'm a little bit of an addict and so it's like, yay. I'm a total adjutant.

Yeah, like I got some new espresso pods to try out. Like, I may have a special latte syrup. Like, I will get excited about my coffee or breakfast. So I get excited about my morning ritual. It's why I love waking up in the morning. I try to draw a hard line and I don't message anybody before like unless it's an emergency 9 a.m. I try to like do my to do list, make breakfast, have coffee, message friends back,

voice note all my thoughts and feelings. And like, then we'll get into work unless it's like an emergency. And if you have control, most people don't have control in their jobs, but if you do have control, or if you're a manager and you have control, don't schedule meetings for Monday morning. Because it's already starting with tension, you know, allow people to ease in a little bit to the workday because you're kind of like, you know, it's not productive. You're just getting them all tense and then the whole, like ease in if you can. Amen.

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Okay, so I just want to talk to you even with our brains and letting work go, but also talking about it. Not even bitching. Fending. Or positive. Like just talking about work, you put yourself back in it. Yes, I think we're talking more about the negativity. But I think you might have somebody who, I mean, I can think about my husband who he gets home from work.

And I'm like, how was work? And he's like, I'm trying to forget about work. You know? And then you're in this like, but I want to hear about your day. And he's like, I don't want to talk about my day. So that's good for him because he's like, you know, there's just I can bitch about it. But I actually would rather shift gears. Look, the thing about stress is it's extremely psychological.

And our unconscious, I try and make this point in the book, I talk about the unconscious lot because our unconscious, and it's going to make people paranoid, is always listening. But it is always listening. So when you talk about, like, oh, I have such a difficult week coming up, I'm so stressed out, et cetera, you're unconscious like, oh, it better activate and be in fight or flight zone and be, you know, prepared. Now, yes, you might have some difficult moments during the week,

but you probably have some less difficult moments during the week. So be more accurate and you can shave off a huge percentage of stress by just being more accurate. By just saying I have a couple of difficult meetings, but I have some easy days too. You know, I ask people how stressful is your job? And they go, oh, it's very stressful. I'm like, well, if you keep saying your job as a whole is very stressful, then you are setting yourself up to be stressed out even in the easy moments, which is a shame and a waste. And it's, again, adding stress to your day.

be more measured, be more accurate. Be like, oh, some difficult meetings here, or this day is very difficult, but there'll be some easy times, there'll be some easy meetings, and I can take nice, long lunch breaks here. Be more accurate. And that way, you can lower significance amounts of stress just by redefining it to yourself, let alone to others. I like that, because I think we talk a lot about, complain about your job, but it's worth saying what's good about your job.

And I hate to keep bringing up my husband, but I'm thinking about him a lot in this episode. I was just telling you, like, the things he doesn't like about it and complains about, I was saying he was able to leave early for us to go to this football game on Monday. You know, like, there's flexibility and there's good things that a lot of people don't have. I think it's worth focusing on the good, too, and the reframing. Because I don't know if it's anyone that's, when you ask about their job, their mind immediately goes to the good. I mean, I don't know.

I think most people immediately think work negative. stress. So what's really important, so for example, just to use that example, when you get to leave your job early to go to the game, it's very important in those moments to express appreciation for that. You know what? One thing about my job I really like is I get to leave early and go to the game. One thing I like about my job is I get to cut out and go to the gym during lunch. Right. Nobody's the wiser. One thing I like about my job is this. Like make sure that when you're doing the things, even if it's daily, you're expressing the appreciation. Again, to yourself. You have to say it aloud because that will balance things out. You will feel less stress when you

remind yourself of the less stressful moments, the advantages, the ways in which your job is good. And he started taking these scooters to work and he has said it's the best part of his day. He works so close to home that he just started doing this and he's like, I get to be outside and ride to work outdoors. It's like changed. I think it's like changed his entire like outlook on work. I mean, how lucky are you to have such a short commute, but also like not get in the car, deal with parking, all of that, I think it's like changed. Okay, I'm done talking about him. He's just on my mind a lot because he's like a person that is

relatable to a lot of the way people feel about their job. Yeah, I think everybody in psychology will tell you your brain will believe the stories that you tell it and you're the narrator of all these things and I think back to times when like we've had really demanding tour schedules and Ashley and I will work Monday through Thursday and Friday

morning we have to get on a plane and we'll do shows Friday, Saturday, and sometimes Sunday night and I'm so exhausted and like beside myself from how tired I am. And I really have to work to remind myself like how fun this is, how lucky I am, what an honor it is that people spend money to come see you. And I have a tour coming up also, which I think we'll have started by the time this podcast comes up.

But I already have to remind myself, like, be present, enjoy this, remind yourself how fun this is and be in the moment. Enjoy the journey. Yeah. Because I don't want to look back and think, I was so tired and stressed the whole time. You said something so important. So I want to emphasize it. You said, I really have to work at reminding myself of how fortunate I am in many kinds of ways.

Yes, you do. And I'm saying not you, but to the audience, you have to work to remind yourself of that because it's much easier to slide into the complaining, to slide into the bitching, to slide into the negativity. That is much more satisfying to just roll. It is, unfortunately, that's how we are. Like, you know, we love self-pity and we love feeling victimized and we love feeling like, oh, poor me.

but and it's harder because you're feeling so when you're feeling really tired and stressed to remind yourself like but I'm fortunate is actually laborious emotionally it's not easy to do but it's so important to do because A it's true and B it lifts it really lifts you it really it gives you some ability to exhale

because yes it's very difficult but I'm fortunate to have this problem I'm fortunate to be tired in that you know like the podcast is so successful we're doing all this interesting fun stuff it's great to think back to your days at Amazon or wherever it is and realize like wow I'm thinking back to how I felt then I'm in a golden place right now that's amazing

that I was able to do that and build that and so to get that perspective and to do it regularly it takes work because that's not our default but it's such a healthy thing to do I know I think about my brother who's so stressed and really works for himself and he feels like he can never turn it off and he has to remind himself, like, but I get to wake up with my boys every morning and have lunch with them some days. Like, I don't have to go. He has a lot of friends who go off

to the office. They work a 12-hour day and they don't see their kids. And so I think he's been able to reframe it in that way, like the things I get to do because of this structure I have. Yeah, you have to. I mean, you go crazy otherwise. Yeah. I mean, Ashley was on tour the whole past year and we talked a couple nights ago about like just having to remind yourself the whole time like, I'm tired, but this is really wonderful. Yeah, this is really special and I'm really lucky. And okay, so let's go back to personal relationships. Okay. So I think from the opposite end of it, I think a lot of us have, our partner comes home and they're really stressed and they want to really vent Sunday nights and they walk in the door. And it's just like, obviously you're

the receptacle of that because you're their best friend and you're the person they talk to at the end of the day and you're their confidant. But as the partner that feels like my partner comes home every day and is really unhappy, miserable, wants to talk about, that really brings this home. Do you have, like, advice for how to talk to them without being like, let's set a boundary. You don't get to talk about work for the first 20 minutes,

you know, because that can feel really hostile and condescending. Yeah. To your partner. Well, first of all, get them the book. The book. Because that would be a good way to go about it. But truly, I think it's fair to say, what would be helpful to you?

Do you want to talk about it like your husband does not? You're like, I don't know talk about it. Sometimes he does. just he is an example of somebody who I get it. Let's say he does. Let's say somebody does. Would it be helpful to talk about it? Yes.

Can we decide when we'll talk about it so that it's not in dribs and drabs and takes the whole evening? Okay. Because it affects my mood too. I want to be here. I want to be supportive. I want to listen. I want to be able to just validate, give advice, whatever you need.

Can we decide on when's the best time for that to happen? Do you need 15 minutes to kind of decompress and just have time for yourself? Would it be helpful to do before dinner or after dinner? Can we decide together on what's the most effective way we can do it? so that we can keep it in its place so that work doesn't invade our evening. Because let's give it some space, but let's not give it all the space. Figured out where it's going to go. And also, I think these people have to put their own ostrich and masks on first.

So, like, the point of, like, buy this book. It's like, you have to, I can only help you so far as your partner. I need you to also help yourself. I need you to go to therapy, work through these problems. Let's evaluate whether a job changes, what's next, you know? Like, you can't take this on entirely. they have to help themselves too. I'll give you one other case scenario,

which I'm seeing a lot, unfortunately. And I get this in Q&A's, and people say to me, my partner is at the point where they can't consider anything. They're just too exhausted, and they're just, like, there's nothing I can do.

I can't even, I don't even have the space mentally to start thinking about what I can do. And what they're describing, in essence, is real burnout. Because when you're burnt out, you don't have any bandwidth left. Right.

You're just mentally exhausted, physically exhausted, emotionally exhausted, and you don't have any bandwidth left. And so it's that when somebody says to me like, oh, they can't even consider this. They can't even have that conversation. Then I said to them, they might be truly burnt out. Are they aware that it's burnout? And are they aware that that's a very emergent thing? Because it will compromise them more and more and more. It actually requires a sort of intervention of sorts.

I love the idea of giving them this book. I sent my brother another book. I'm not going to mention that book in this episode because your book was now. But I sent it to him. I was like, I think this will help. I think that's really a first step is providing someone the tools. And if you have a partner who lashes out at you, I don't need that. I don't know.

It's not the type of relationship I'd want to be. I think they should be appreciated. Well, if somebody says I don't need that, well, but how would you know until you've read it? Yeah. I mean, I think about Alyssa. And I think they're doing great. I mean, but her, again, fiancé, who's in his residency, I just, I'm curious now how they're managing it

because that is probably the most grueling type of burnout you could be in. That's just when she tells us the schedule, I'm like, how is this legal? It's like six, seven days a week all night. I know, residents, it's terrible. Yeah. With a call schedule, with everything, it's like, really...

Yeah. But by the way, when you have a schedule like that, then that's when you have to really try and be as effective as you can in figuring out where do I get little, little pieces of oxygen. Where do I get little islands of something?

Because when you're morning till night all the time and you're just tired all the time one thing that happens to us and I'm not about residents because they're physically fatigue, they're running around literally from floor to floor in the hospitals. But I'm back to our unconscious mind which I keep talking about.

But our unconscious mind doesn't distinguish well between physical and mental fatigue. So when we had a difficult day at work we come home and we feel like, I am drained, I don't have the strength, do anything. Well, no, you're mentally drained. You're not physically drained. So does vegging out for four or five hours, you will wake up tired the next morning. Oh. Because you didn't recharge. You just relaxed. And it's a combo of resting and recharging that you need

to have. Now, you know, and people know that when you force yourself to go to the gym if you're athletic or to go and cook if you're into cooking or to go and do something active that fulfills you, you will expend energy doing it and you will feel more energized when you're done. Because that's the, you know, when you're doing something that really speaks to you, then it energizes you. It replenishes your battery. It fills your battery. Relaxing won't fill your battery. It won't deplete it, but it won't fill it. And we're constantly confusing the physical with mental fatigue. And so we actually have to be wiser in terms of I feel drained and I don't feel I'm getting up from the couch.

But if I do, and if I do this thing that I know I like, if you're an extrovert, go meet with a friend or, you know, go for a walk and have a, you know, catch up on the phone. Do the thing that actually invigorates you. And that's the thing that will keep you much more energized because otherwise you're just going to wake up feeling fatigued again. I wonder if you're like this. I'm saying Ashley, or are you also both you? Like, I try to do kind of the opposite of what I've done all day.

So if I have a day that was kind of like, I didn't really learn anything or do that much, and I didn't see anybody. I tend to seek out entertainment, like podcasts and shows that are kind of more informational and heavy. Like, I'll listen to The New York Times The Daily or I'll watch a documentary. Whereas, like, if she and I have had these, like, very mentally charged days, I like to just listen to nonsense and pop culture type of episodes and reality TV. I kind of, like, oscillate the type of stuff. But that's exactly correct.

It's to balance out your day. You know, it's to give yourself the thing that you, you know, you just depleted yourself on doing X. So do Y now. Give yourself the opposite. That's correct. That's exactly right. I like talking about distinguishing between the mental and the physical fatigue. Because sometimes it's physical fatigue, and that's when I have to think of how much sleep I got the night before.

Like sleep is more important every year as I age to me. And it's like the number one thing that affects the way my day goes. But like that I've had to do that with like, I can work out. I'm not physically fatigued, but I feel so drained. And so it does feel crazy sometimes, I think, to talk all. all day and record all day and do these things and then still go to dinner at night with friends and talk all night, but it makes me feel better at the end of it. Drained in a good way. I actually, that's what we say about when we're in New York, when we run around all day,

like, you get home and in the hotel and you feel like so drained but in a good way, that's a really nice feeling. We don't get it as much here because we don't run around and do as much, but that's, I love the way that feels. Look, I really left it all in the field. We really, like, put our stamp on the day. in New York here. 5 p.m. I put my pajamas on. I'm going on here.

Okay, can we end on vacations? You have a lot of thoughts. Yes. Vacations and anti-vacations, I guess? Yes. I'm not anti-vacians. No, like going on a vacation. You think you're on a vacation and it's an anti-vacation.

Yeah, you work the whole time. Yeah, exactly. So, look, one of the mistakes people make on vacations is they go and they're only going to dip into work a little bit. And, you know, it's a problem. One of the things I say about vacation. is that, first of all, you should know that roughly a week is where you max out the benefits. So if going on a two, three week vacation, because you're really tired, is much less effective than going on three, one week vacations.

Okay. Generally speaking. I can fuck your honeymoon. Yes. Secondly, the mistake most of us make is we kind of, we try and get ahead of work before we go, to kind of clear the desk before we go, and then we pack last minute. And we rush to the airport and we get wherever we're going so stressed out that we spend half the vacation trying to relax and getting into vacation mode. And then half the vacation's open.

And so I actually advocate taking time before the vacation to rest up. You want the last couple of nights before the vacation to be restful. You want to be well slept. You want to pack a week in advance if you can. So you don't have that on your... I know, it's absurd. So you don't have that on your head. You want to have a travel packing list so you don't have to start figuring out what you need and you just, you know, you just go to it.

And then you want to try and get to the airport a little bit early so you're not all stressed out. You want to make sure that you get to the vacation in vacation ready mode because then you'll get the most out of it. I love this. And again, it's, you know, people's lives are different now. But if we're talking about a person who is like they work and this is their one week long vacation, I think this is like so important. I mean, we travel all the time. I don't know the difference between vacation and work travel anymore, but it's really like I think of that person.

They have stayed late Friday or whatever the night before. They pack that then they get home and pack. And then they take a morning flight out the next morning. And so anything you can do, even if it's the one day to relax. I mean, a couple days is obviously ideal, but it's just everyone has that story of the like getting ahead and checking all the boxes and then rushing to pack. And if you're like, Raina, you drink wine when you pack

and you have a meltdown, and then you have to wake up and you're on a 6 a.m. flight. That's my original. Okay. But it's also guilt, right? It's also like, I want to show all my coworkers that I'm trying to, like, do the best for them so they don't get stuck with things or whatever.

But it's like you're ruining your vacation. Like, in other words, try and be a little bit more thoughtful. If you can get back, don't get back Sunday night for a Monday work day because you'll, you know, like get back Sunday morning if you can. If you can just get some time, a buffer. And then I also believe in triple dipping with vacations. In other words, spend time before the vacation getting excited about it, planning what you're going to do. Now, you don't need spoilers,

but like anticipate like, oh, I can't wait to do this or I can't wait to do that. And then when you're there, make sure you have extra time everywhere to document. People actually are much guiltier about documenting instead of being present in the thing. Like, I would see people in certain places I go where they are really just there to take pictures to show the people that they've been there as opposed to absorb in any way, shape, or form where they are and why they're there. Yes, I've had to, like, make deals with myself to stop doing this, where I will, like, sit there and take, like, 15 photos of the same thing, and I've had to make promises to myself, one photo of this thing.

Oh, just building a little extra time. First and joy, then take the photo. I love that. And then, because, look, our memory is not great. What we will remember from the vacation is the media that we took on the vacation. So you're curating your memories here when you're taking photos and videos. But curate them well. Don't do it at the expense of actually being there because then you actually lose out.

So build in some extra time to then document. And then when you're done, when you get home, organize it into folders, create a little booklet, do something so that you can then relive the vacation. And do that in the week that you get back. So then you're kind of extending the vacation vibe. I'm triple dipping. It's triple dipp. I mean, how many people have gone to see fireworks and only watched the fireworks through their phone screen?

Which no one wants a fireworks pick. Concerts. I mean... And by the way, and then they have 20 minutes of fireworks. Are they going to sit through and watch that? No. Are they going to punish other people by having to sit through and watch that? No.

A minute of fireworks is sufficient. Look how pretty it was. Here's a sample. Minutes a little long even. I agree. But it's like... And the phone is not here. It's in front of their face, so they're not seeing it.

Yeah. concerts. I have to promise myself to not film all because you're not going to do anything with it. Yeah, nothing. You have the album, so it's like, you know. Those are the boundaries you set on yourself, and I go see my favorite artist, which is Beyonce. I thought, I go into it. It feels so corny, but I'm like, Ashley, you're going to get like these three moments for your Instagram story, and that's it. And I think Serena Kerrigan posted this. She's an influencer and creator. And I think

she was pretty honest about the issues with her boyfriend when they would travel, and she needed him to take pictures of her and this and that. And I can't remember exactly what she did. It was some sort of like time limit or we only take this many photos and if we get the shot, we get the shot. And she said it's really helped their relationship because someone like her who does this for a living and needs to get this content, she relies on her partner to do it. And I think he's happy to help. They're a wonderful couple, but it gets to a point where it's too much. And then he's not enjoying it. So whatever they did felt really healthy and positive and helped their relationship. So he's not like, how many more pictures.

So just plan ahead a little bit. Plan ahead. A little bit early so you can take, so you can document, so you can do the thing. You can get a, you know, a few seconds of the footage while you're there, but then be able to enjoy it because you're not enjoying it when you're so stressed out about, will I get the right footage? I just think that's, we feel kind of silly, like planning ahead. If you don't do it for a living, for example, if you are just a person who wants to

post on your own Instagram, but it's not. It's just making sure you can enjoy it. Everyone makes this mistake. Everyone is so obsessed with it. I need to find the right picture, and then you're literally missing out on what you're there for. Doesn't it feel so good when you do it early? Like we were in Greece. We're like, got the shot.

Now we can enjoy the boat. Do it first, then enjoy. I thought about that in Greece because like I actually, before we went to Greece, we went to Santorini. We've gone a couple times. We love Greece. I looked up like photos that everyone takes in Santorini. And I was like, okay, there's two spots that would be fun to take photos in. And we got those shots.

And we were able to be present and be with everybody. And we have each other. We're lucky. but I think a lot of, to Ashley's point, a lot of couples' experiences are that one of them is trying to be an influencer, be on social media, they make money from this. I understand they want to post-affiliate links

and this is their livelihood, but they also deserve to enjoy these experiences. But it feels so good to not do that on vacation. Like the time is when I'm like, I did get this content or I'm not getting it because it doesn't matter and I'm good with what I have so far when you actually are like the person with your phone away and you're just looking around and like soaking it up.

An icon. Yeah, you really feel kind of cocky about it. Well, Guy, thank you so much. Again, can you tell us where people can get the book anywhere, everywhere, where you recommend? So the book should be available everywhere and anywhere. It's an audio book. I do the reading. Ebook and hardcover.

Find out more information. They can go to guy wench.com. And then you'll have links to my social media, to my substack newsletter, and all the other stuff. Okay. And people want more content. You were on the show. in September of 2020 and September of 2022. Those are both on our website.

You can search those episodes, but you have great books. You have two other books. Three other books. Three other books. And then this book. And so we really encourage people to just really consume all your content. Yes. Give this to every stressed out person, you know.

And you guys know where to find us, Girls Gotta Eat.com. We are Girls Got to Eat podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I am Ash Hess, reina. dot Greenberg, rhinagreenberg.com for her tour tickets. and subscribe on YouTube, share this episode with a friend, and we will see Thursday. Oh, and Vives Only for Valentine's Day gifts

for a stressed-all person in your life. Vivesonly.com. Have a great week, guys. Bye.