Girls Gotta Eat - How to Let Them Go with Anna Kai

Episode Date: December 16, 2024

If you're ready for a master class in how to let someone go, presenting: Anna Kai. We loved having her on to discuss why we get hooked on people who aren't good for us, when you should know someone isn't going to commit, and how to cut off these relationships/situationships and move on. We also discuss her experience going on 100 first dates before meeting her husband, why she doesn't believe in love at first sight (but what she DOES believe in that's more important), the myth of closure, and more. Before Anna joins us, we're catching up on Rayna's move and Ashley's new travel goal, and breaking down two recent Internet trends – "We listen and we don't judge" and "women in male fields" (oh we have thoughts). Enjoy! Follow Anna on Instagram @maybeboth and Tiktok @maybeboth, listen to her podcast Brutally Anna, and check out her website maybeboth.com. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Thank you to our partners this week: Skims: Shop Skims Holiday Shop at https://skims.com. Hinge: Download Hinge Today. Aura Frames: Get $35 off Aura's Carver Mat Frames at https://auraframes.com with code GGE. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Why would you go back to the man who hurt you and ask him to heal you? This podcast is a Dear Media production. Hi, guys. Welcome back to another episode of Girls' Gotta Eat. Welcome back. I'm so close to Christmas. It's my favorite holiday. No, second favorite holiday.

Favorite holiday, Thanksgiving. You know what would be funny we say Thanksgiving? Every episode forever. Right of there for dear eating a thing. Also Thanksgiving. Thank you guys for coming out to the New York Show. We are recording this before that, but sure they were incredible. We love you guys.

We always love performing there. Our seventh annual New York City holiday shows. We just had them this weekend. So thank you guys for coming out. Thank you to the New York Giants Drumline, which we've had for three years now. There are our official drumline in New York. They were incredible. And we have Boston this weekend, final shows.

If you're not coming to Boston and you can, you are going to be sorry. It's a threat. These are going to be unreal. I'm really kind. It's one of our favorite places. Maybe our favorite theater that we've ever performed in. No. And the tour there will be so special.

Yeah. Like the entertainers we have still always in awe that we are able to get them and get them even bigger and better than before. And it's just going to be unbelievable. All the bells and whistles. So we will see you guys probably still a few tickets left to the late Friday show this Friday the 20th. And you can get tickets at Girls Got to Eat.com. Get the vibes only vibe bracelets. And we will see there.

Yeah. We're really excited to Dubai. All right. All right. We're going to thank our partners and jump right in. Download Hinge today. I knew you're going to say it like, I'm not going to laugh at this one. You said it, Download Hitch today?

I'm normally if you want. That's like, this thing and take this. It's just, I'm not, I'm never expecting it to be three words. I thought you might say, download Hinge today. You said it as in you do you. Okay. I'll say thanks to Skims, Shop, Skims, Holiday Shop, and Skims.com and or Frames, get 35 off orra's Carvermatframes at oraframes.com with code gge.

So I'm crawling out of a hole currently. I have been like only in like moving renovation and nothing else. I can't talk about anything else. I don't think about it yet. So I'm in the house. In the house. I'm in the house and I'm not bored. Tasker happens around the clock.

I'm just like, but I moved out on Friday. Flat rate moved me and I love them and they're great and they've always taken to care of me. And then I moved into the house on Saturday. And you've been over a bunch. You're the only person actually. Lisa came over last night. at least to him over for a minute and then just security system, Wi-Fi, TaskRabids. I mean,

I broke down like a hundred boxes in one day. I'm an animal. Yeah. You're running on adrenaline, like something like you have just been nonstop. I can't sleep. I get up at 5 in the morning and I'm just like I have an Excel spreadsheet with four different tabs and it's just like to buy, to do, to ask the contractor. Like I just have so much stuff. But I feel like a light at the end of the tunnel I can like be a person again. It's been a lot. Well, congrats. The house is unreal. Thank you. I don't know what's going to have with me because I am in that house and I'm like, oh, I want this house. I want to love my house this much. You know, I love my house. I don't own a different. There's different, different vibes over here. But like, I just, it's like going to be your dream home. And like, I want my dream home.

Like, everybody wants their dream home, you know, and it's just like you're getting getting to make it exactly how you want it. Like, it was already so stunning to begin with. But now just like being in there and how bright and light. And it's like perfect. Like, I hate my kids. with such a deep passion and my bathroom and I love my house and so many things in that. But also I don't own it. So it's like I got what I get what I get. But, you know, I just want to love it like that. And I just told you like this is, I feel like the most work you're going to put into something that will be the greatest payoff.

Because it is so much stress and frustration and it's been such a long process. There's manual labor and there's managing all these people coming and out. And it's like there's nothing worse than movie. I mean, this is what people say. It's one of the most stressful life moments. And on top of a renovated. And all the things you've dealt with, you didn't have toilets, you didn't have heat, like all this stuff. And it's going to be so worth it. Like, the payoff is so massive.

It just, it feels really good. I'm really proud of it. I'm very lucky. I'll talk about it on further episodes because I know you know just like before and after picks, but I renovated the house. And I'm just, I'm a good friend of mine. My contractor is a good friend of mine. My contractor is amazing. Like, he's just, he's incredible. We talk all day every day. That's my best friend. Oh, I'll remember to see your wedding. Apparently, he's her best friend, you guys. Run the tape. I was just talking about the cheating in your wedding. I just, I mean, it's made all the difference in the world, having somebody I can, like, depend on that answers their phone seven days a week. And, like, we've just collaborated with me.

This is so funny. Like, it's really like you're talking about your man. I just love having someone to depend on. And, you know, he really's just always there for me. He always answers my calls and he never doesn't text me back. Literally, this morning, I was, like, calling you a second. It just, I hit send and my phone rang. It's just, this is the dream relationship.

And he just, like, comes over and does stuff for me. Listen, I'm going to keep it in the box, but I have feelings on how I think this is all going to play out. And, you know, I don't want to jinx anything, but I've been telling everybody. I've been telling all of our friends. Like, I'm just like, here's. So, here's what I think. You know, so we'll see you guys. I'll tell you more about the companies and the contractors and all that when I finally have

photos for you guys, but I'm in and I'm excited. And now I have to pack to leave town for two weeks. Yeah, don't know how you're going to do it. No. Actually, so I never unpacked from London from visiting my family. And so I think I really am just going to stick a couple live show outfits in that zoo Yeah. And that's it. Well, speaking of traveling, I had a big change.

I want to run by you. So you probably know that the whole time we've traveled together for six years, I always travel in leggings. I always travel my aligned leggings, Lou Lemon. What do you do? I'm thinking of traveling in sweats. Oh. Actually, I can't really scary. What did you think of?

Jeans. We have no jeans. We have no jeez. What do you mean? You like, sweat. So what do you mean? Listen, I'm not of the mindset of like, you need to dress up to fly, like the olden days. Yeah.

But like, I feel sloppier in sweatpants. It's my own shit. Their sweatsuits are what everybody wears. Most popular podcasts in the world. That's what she podcasted. Like, I'm not saying other people look sloppy. Something about it. I'm like, because I wear sweatpants around the house and I don't want to get dressed.

And like, what I usually wear are like leggings and a hoodie. Like, I have my whole look. But like, I've been seeing people in the airport. I feel like I want to feel like that. A sweatset? Yeah. Or like that spanks that we have, just not confined. lined leggings. Like, I want to be loose-fitting sweat-v vibe. I mean, I'm really for it. Well,

I'm liking his sweatpants and like these little baby alo teas that I've been like wearing matching sweatpants with all the time. I love it. It's kind of looks sexy. And they're like, I just, I like, Brittany and I were in Paris and she wore a sweatset to, I don't really do the hotel next door to the Ritz-Carlton. It's essentially as fancy as the Ritz-Crawlton. We went and had dinner in her sweat set in Paris. Okay, so Brittany, I think it's her body that can pull it off. And sometimes I see these girls an airport or in the lounge or whatever. Like, what does not look good on me is sweatpants and a sweatshirt that is not cropped. I, yes.

I don't have the curves or the butt or something. Like, it doesn't work with my body. So I need it to be cropped at my waist. Like, I can't do baggy sweatshirt that covers up the waistband and then there's baggy sweatpants underneath. I've tried it. It doesn't work for me. So that's where I struggle.

I have been wanting to dress like that for a long time. I think it's so sexy and other people. Brittany's so sexy. I know. It's because she's pretty good than me. You know, she's her body. No one's looking at her body. Like, it's just people are like, with that face, who even cares

or you have a body? Well, and I'm short, too. Like, the tapered sweatpants on me with a baggy sweatshirt. My pants, my legs are looking there one foot long. But see, on me, a sweat pant never bunches up at the bottom. It's a high water. Like, you know, I'm never going to have that look. Like a tapered?

Oh, because it'll be a capriced. The taper just hits the ankle. I told you years ago, because you were out of, here like, why has no one hit on me in the airport? I'm like, your quarter zip. And we got you into a cropped quarter zip, which I like a cropped, anything cropped. And I don't mean my stomach's out. It's just hitting at the waist, not so baggy. So anyway, that's my fashion update. I mean, that's a good fashion for a minute. It's short. I'm so short. It's just like, when you have something like hangs below your butt, you look shorter. Yeah. I know. You and I are just

not made for this style, but I'm going to try it out. I want to be comfier. I'm going to be comfier. I've been looking. The leggings are so comfy, but you know what I mean? Even Cumpfier. No. I'm a long place. I don't like that constriction. I don't like it. Yeah. I mean, the lines are like buttery soft. I wish this is an ad, but it's not. But that's the exclusively the ligand that I wear for everything. I have so many pairs. But it's just like to be in a sweat pant on a plane, watch me, catch me. Catch me on that plane and sweatpants. Read people's text. I've been looking for our sweatsets at since that night and pairs of Britney that like looks good on me. And it's just like, no.

The thanks when we have is good. Yeah. I got stopped in the coffee shop This one was like, what's your set? And I go, it's Spanx. And she goes, what? I said, do you know Spanx? She goes, yeah. And then we had this weird standoff and I'm like,

oh, they make other clothes. And she was like, oh, okay. Like, she thought I was not okay. And then I was like, you got to feel it. And I'm like, I feel really weird in the moment to go feel it. Feel it, bitch. No, every time somebody comments on that set from Spanx, I'm like, you got it, touch it.

Touch it. What's it called? Air. Oh, the air. Air. Air. No, just air. It's air.

Air performance air. Something. They're not a sponsor either. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed that I love it. Okay, we have a couple fun topics to discuss today. I'm really excited. We're each going to take the lead on them.

And they're both great for today's episodes. We're talking about, we talk about relationships in every episode. Yeah. We have Anna Kai on today. We loved her. When she came to Raina's report, we talked shit with her for an hour before we even went into the studio. So we love it. Okay.

So I'm going to talk to you guys about. the we listen and we don't judge trend and this is on TikTok I'm sure it's made its way over at Instagram but I like this article that the cut put out that the headline is are straight couples okay and so I'll tell you about this trend you may or may not have seen it but basically the we listen and we don't judge trend is made with mostly couples but it says you can also make them with siblings friends or just about any other relationship you don't mind destroying I love that one person divulges a secret to their partner and before anyone can pick a fight or react both chant, often in monotone, we listen and we don't judge the way a preschool class or

the golden rule or the pledge of allegiance. Then the other side gets a turn. And I mean, there's been results. Like people are like, this ruined my relationship. I mean, they, they definitely vary in tone, but I hate them all mostly. So the first time this came across my desk was, um, Kat Stickler. She didn't want her mom. And I didn't know this was like a couple's thing at first. And one sentence in, I was already, I don't know. I'm going to say, like, cringing, because I think she's a great relationship with her mom and her daughter. I think it's always, like, sweet and cute. But, like, her mom is talking about how, like, when guys text cat, her mom goes and deletes the text.

And her mom's, like, hysterically laughing. And cat's like, wait, what? And I was like, this feels kind of mean. That feels, like, kind of a mean thing to do your kid, but they both seem in on it together. They both seem, like, in on the joke. Obviously, like, she created the video after the fact she could have cut it. But, like, even watching a mother and daughter, I was like, oh, this feels mean. Now that you, I've not seen any parent-kid relationship ones,

but I think a funny trend would be like admitting stuff to your parents that you did when you were younger. If you have the right parent, it would not fly with your mom. Fuck no. But like one of the shows when I told my parents who were in the audience that one of my friends had anal in their closet in high school, it was hilarious. But my parents are cool. And like that trend would really fly. But I, listen, I don't care what people do.

I love other people's drama. But this, I just don't appreciate. it. I have a visceral reaction to it. Here's why I don't think it's funny. And so I'm watching like uncomfortable, cringe and it's, there's no funny to balance it. Like I've watched a number of them in preparation to talk about this and I just, and like every one of these should stay in the drafts. Yeah, I mean, the stuff that people were revealing and I didn't they range. I'm sure there are some funny ones out there. I won't watch them all. Yeah, some of them are like, I don't do the dishes. Like, I mean, it's a household chore stuff. But like, we've seen even like people say,

Sometimes I look at your face and I wish you were somebody else. No, like a lot of them are like dads that like sometimes I say I like have to go fix something in the basement. I just need to get away. Like I just think this is stuff you don't admit. Like this is stuff you keep to yourself or you tell your friends. And if I saw ones which maybe they exist that were like really funny and light and then the partner really reacted with like a hearty laugh. Like I would be okay with it. But I've seen partners react really offended or uncomfortable.

Like this one guy told his partner he didn't like her cooking And it was just uncomfortable Like that would hurt Like tell me that in private If you need to tell it I wish I could take like a lighter stance on this I just this stuff feels like mean And it you know what it is

It's stuff that stays in therapy It's stuff that you talk to your therapist about You know like that whole like Sometimes I pretend I have to run an errand And I just go sit in the car Because like I don't want to be around my family I don't like being a father Like that's not stuff that's like

Hee he let's posting on TikTok No, you're literally right. Like, that is what you actually say in therapy. Yeah. I'm having doubts about my life because I'm doing this thing. Well, that's what some of the articles said. Like, this is like a weird bootleg therapy for some of these couples. But I'm like, what do you mean?

Like, posting this on the internet for people to comment on, like, it feels like the opposite of therapy. Wait, I forgot about the comments. You know, I just totally forgot that people also levied their opinions about it. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it doesn't, I don't know. which doesn't feel like something I'm going to plan, script, edit, post. Like, even that suspect thinks or suspect says or does trend, which is much more lighthearted. It's funny when people are running and they stop and they laugh and the laugh is fake and it's weird.

But like, some of the stuff people reveal, I'm like, oh, you like scripted this and now you have to laugh about it. But wait, I like that comparison because I do like a lot of those. Yeah. And we're going to talk about Tyler Cameron, but I love Jason Tardick and Tyler Cameron's. The one that Jason Tardick and Tyler Cameron did made me want to do the trend. And I commented that and it got a bunch of likes because people were like, yeah, you and Raina have to do it. I don't, it's not about the content. It's about whether or not it's funny.

It's just isn't funny to me. No one's laughing genuinely. Right. Again, like if I saw this trend and it was like lighthearted and people were laughing, I'd be laughing with them. No one's laughing. Everyone's uncomfortable and contemplating a breakup. I do think that you were right about what you said, though, about like some of these people are just using this as like an excuse for therapy or an excuse for communication. Like, right.

Like, I'm not going to tell you this in private, but I'll tell you this on this TikTok. TikTok. Do you think we're like we're just out of touch to these, like, Gen Z. Tessa's are a Gen Z correspondent. Like, am I just old and out of touch that I think that this type of behavior, like, airing your dirty laundry on TikTok and then laughing at each other like it's so funny? Like, am I just out of touch? No, I mean, I don't watch that either because it makes me like...

Tessa said makes her uncomfortable. Is it uncomfortable to watch it? Yes. Physically uncomfortable. Okay. I just want to make sure. And I love other people's drama, so I should like it. But I don't.

No, you're right, though. The suspect trend seems like that's drama. Like, Kristen Cavalieri, just, like, spilling tea. It's funny. Yeah. I also just, like, don't think the trend is funny. Like, we listen and we don't judge. I don't find the setup funny.

Like, I like the suspect thing is funny. It's a funny setup. I just don't like it. It's not for me. We listen and we don't judge. Like, I told me a second because I was like, I don't really know how this is, like, applicable. Like, we don't judge.

Like, it's not because those things are about the other person they're not about you really like it's not like I don't know I pick my nose and I wipe it under the couch and then you say to your girlfriend or like wait I feel taxed oh my am I right now I don't wipe on the couch you know I just pick my nose but like it's like people have like gross body stuff that they admit and then it seems normally to be like listen don't judge okay yeah like wait you're so right like I don't shower at night I don't shower in the morning We're so, right, like, it's misaligned. Yes, that's exactly it.

Like, we listen and we don't judge should go with, my boogers are under the couch. I don't want if I'm making up at night. I ruined your shirt. No, like, sometimes I hate you. Like, yeah, not the same thing to me. Right. Well, let's talk about our next thing.

This makes me so mad on the inside. And I thought it was like, okay, so women in male fields, this trend, basically, I'll sum it up for you. it's essentially women posting things that men say to them all this like pretty non-committal unkind behavior and they're posting it as though they're doing those things yeah so the first time i ever saw this it was not really dating related but i talked about this and i'll just tag her now so her instagram is deeper than money and there's a period deeper than dot money i hadn't seen this trend and she was like on the forefront of this was like mid-november

one thing said when i hear a man talking about his fancy house and i hit him with the wow what does your wife do when a man asks me a finance question and I say it'd probably be faster if I explain it to your girlfriend. When I see a man on the golf course and hit him with, did your girlfriend force you out here? When I see a man with a boat and I say, got to be his mom's, when I'm talking to a man who owns his own business and hit him with, but who actually like runs it though? And so I just love those. Those are like career related because she's like a money career person, but like most of them are like dating related. Yeah, most of them are like some fuck boy behavior. I mean, there's really fun. This one made me laugh. He asked me to pick something up for him

at the grocery store. So I went to the exact aisle and shelf. where it was, stared right at it and texted him. I don't see what you're asking for. Like, I think that some of these things are so hysterical, but the dating ones started to get me like really mad. So stuff like I left him on red while being active on every form of social media and said, sorry, I'm never on my phone. Yeah, he sent me a paragraph explaining how he felt and I replied with IDK,

what you want me to say right now. And my favorite, just told him we're hanging out tomorrow, made plans. But when tomorrow comes, I'm going to ignore him all day and come up with a random excuse. And I just, I started to get mad, really, me, is because, like, women are posting, and they post a selfie of themselves, essentially, with the behavior below it. And the message is, like, if I were to do this, it would be preposterous. Like, it's hysterical to think that women would do any of these things. I'm sure women have done all of them. There's one of cases for everything.

But in general, the behavior belongs to men. And it's funny because you're like, women would never do this. It's ridiculous. It's crazy. I would have to be actively trying to be an asshole. Yes. to you in order even invent any of these things. If somebody was texting me a budge and I just went on their story and liked it,

I would have had to be texting all my friends. Like, I'm about to be the biggest dick ever right now. Yes. If somebody explained, okay, making plans with somebody. If I was like, I'll see you tomorrow at this time. And the next day, a normal person said to me like, what time I'm going to see you? And I just ghost out of the plans.

I'd have to be purposely trying to do something to say. I'm so crazy. You are so crazy. Like normal everyday male behavior is a woman saying, watch how big of a dick I'm about to be. Yes, that's what it is. It's so true. It's all of this like non-committal, unkind. A friend would never treat you like this.

And all of these, there's just thousands of examples of it. And I just kept getting madder, matter of thinking about this. And this whole episode is kind of about that like fuckboy behavior and somebody that won't commit when you want them to commit. And I just kept thinking like, we should reframe this behavior. lot of times when this stuff would happen to me in my 20s, I would feel so bad about myself and I would take it really personal and I would just think like, what did I do to provoke this? And I'm such a fool for believing that somebody would show up for me in the way that like, I want them to. I felt so silly. But like, now that I'm older, I just find this behavior unattractive. It is

unattractive to me that you cannot commit to a plan. It is unattractive to me that I've expressed my feelings to you and you've responded with one sentence. You are a bad communicator. You are noncommittal. You do not show up for me. just unattractive. A hundred percent. Like, how often do we say intentional is a turn on? You know, and a lot of times this is just stuff you outgrow. I was watching Sex Lives of College Girls.

And Bella, who I love that character, like, has this turning point where she has a crush on a nice guy. And she was like, oh, my God, nice is horny. Like, it's finally to me, you know, which is like a feeling we've all felt of, like, you like that bad boy that treats you poorly. But this is what I've been saying since the beginning of podcast is, like, I only like people that like me. Like, that behavior.

Yes. Like, you have to somehow figure out how. how to shift your mindset over time and actually make it unattractive to you. And it's what we talk about with being ghosted. Like, it's the meanest thing you can do to somebody. It's so mean to have someone that is like begging you for a response in some cases, just wants a response. And you are such a coward that you can't just like text them that maybe you're not

interested or something like that. And it's like, you just don't want someone like that. You've got to find a way to be like, that person fucking sucks. And I dodged a bullet. And I know it's easier said than done, but like, it's really gross behavior. And, like, the more we can talk about it in that way and frame it in that way, the better. Yeah. Your inability to show up to plans you've committed to, to follow up with me to a text that I've sent.

And just normal human decency, like, you wouldn't trade friend like this or your mom. Yeah. I just, your disinterest in treating me like a human being is unattractive to me. And I just, every time I read these, it really reframed it to me because, like, when I see a woman talking about doing it, it's preposterous. I know. It's such a good way to look at it. This is so crazy if we did this.

Every man you know did this four times did that. Listen, I also want to say, like, there's men listening that are like, oh, contraire, I've been treated like shit. You know what men are they say these days. Why do women initiate the percentage of divorces? Shut up. Why do you think? Because of you.

Where are you going? But anyway, I just want to validate that, like, women are assholes too. and men have had terrible experiences and we understand that. And not all guys are assholes, of course. I mean, there's so many great guys out there. But just, of course, that goes out saying. But overwhelmingly, that's why this trend exists because it's predominantly male behavior. So hopefully, I mean, this whole episode really is about people that don't treat you just the way that you want to be treated.

And just being able to say yourself, like, I just don't find this attractive and moving how it's not about you. It's about how they want to treat another person and it has nothing to do with you. That's your business. Bullet Dodge. Okay. Well, we're just going to talk about a couple of our partners, and then we will get into it with Anna. We're so excited for you guys to hear, oh, skims. Listen, you can just do all your holiday shopping on skims.

I would. So I feel like I don't want to tell me what I've gotten them, but I've gotten so many things for people. And I got some stuff for my brother, which is not going to be relatable to everybody, but they go up to like 5X. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. So my brother is big and tall.

And so I got him some skin stuff. We'll see if it fits because he really needs like 3X tall. but we're going to see. So I was excited to get stuff for everybody on my list. We just love it. I mean, the website is so easy to navigate with like gift guides, gifts for her, gifts for him. Oh, I got matching pajamas for Jay and Aaron. Like I went ham on the skin set.

Yeah, they've got a gift set. Yeah, it's great. So again, get in that holiday shop and it's the best destination for all your gifts. And then you can get some things for yourself to just throw in the bag. So everyone in your family can get skins. And of course, like, we love the bra and underwear sets. Like, if you have a close girlfriend or sister or cousin, I think it's so cute to get these sets.

They come up in such a cute box. Like you get the panties all in like one box. You know the bra size. You can get those two. And again, they had these like really cute different prints and colors for the season. And then the soft lounge is just the best feeling. So Ray and I both have the soft lounge pajama set in red.

Rick. Red and black. Yeah. You got black. Okay. So I got the black before they were to sponsor the show. So I got someone who I'm not going to say because she listens, but I got her the black.

And I got some stuff for my mom. And again, for my brother, for my nephews. I mean, we're just so obsessed, but you can't go wrong with the soft lounge. And again, that soft lounge dress, it comes in spaghetti straps, sleeveless, and then also long-sleeved. Like, if you know their size, that dress is magic. It looks so hot and everybody, get that for them, too, all the colorways and, of course, all the sizes of all the bras and sizes for sizes for guys and everything. We just love it. This is, like, got to be a go-to for your holiday shopping.

So you can shop Skims Holiday Shop at Skins.com available in styles for women, men, kids, and even pets. If you haven't yet, be sure to let them know he sent you after you place your order. select podcast in the survey and select our show in the drop-down menu that follows. I do it every time. I select our show. Obviously. I just like going to get that order under our name. Hinge is the dating app designed to be deleted.

I mean, what a perfect partner for today's episode. While the holidays are crazy, take a moment to pause and reflect on your dating journey over the past year. And what do you want to do for 2025? What you do differently in the dating journey next year? I mean, listen to this whole episode. and then use Hinge as your guide to finding better people. I love the way that they built their app. The prompts are fantastic.

And you can really build out new photos. I mean, take those holiday photos. Put them on your hand. We love the prompts. I've never seen another app do it like they do. They really built an app to create conversation, to connect with other people. Talk about your intentions.

And, you know, I always say not just this past year, but through the podcast, I've just learned that, you know, dating should be fun and easy and light. it and hinges like really such a good gateway into that and just like you think you'd write like just bought a house looking for someone to make it a home women in menfield looking for a man to help make this a home because like women make houses at home help me make my house a home just bought a house looking for someone to cook and clean in it or just bought a house looking for some dumb man to come fuck it up looking for something in women's fields

for some man to leave his socks in my new house everywhere. Women in Men's Fields is like, just bought a house, looking for someone to come and prove what I've already bought. Yeah. But really, I can't recommend it enough. You can update your photos, your dating intentions, your proms, talk about what you want for the year, and just meet up with somebody for 90 minutes.

It's such a good way to do it. Refresh your Hinge profile earlier, or down on Hinge today, and set your 2025 dating intentions now. Okay, let's get into it. All right, guys, we are. So thrilled to welcome our guest today. She has amassed millions of followers on social media as maybe both doling out tough love dating advice.

And she is the host of the new podcast, Brutely Anna. Please welcome to the show, Anna Kai. Thank you so much for having me. I feel like we recorded or did not record a whole episode. You've been here for a long time. I've been here for like an hour and we've just been talking. It's been cathartic to say the least. But I'm glad we're actually recording.

You walked in and we're all like, we're each other's people. We've just been going. It's been lovely. So thank you for taking the time to speak to me before we actually were on air. Oh, no. You've been speaking to me. I mean, you've been speaking to me on the internet for longer than you know. I came across your page and you do a lot of, you do makeup while you yell at me, basically.

And I love it. It's really like, it's the best type of tough love dating advice. You do a lot of like take yourself out of this bullshit relationship. I'll let you introduce yourself. But I think you're fantastic. And I've, like, followed you for a long. time and I love your dating advice and it's very digestible and relatable. Yeah, thanks.

Well, we try. We really do. It's been a long time. Yeah, you look amazing and I want to talk about the content, but I read this article of why we like that type of content of people doing something so much. Do you make up while they talk to you? I'm curious. It's a whole psychological thing of just that we recognize it.

It feels safe to us and then we have something else to distract us while we're absorbing the information as well. But it's like a whole brain thing of watching something that you, yourself. do. So that's kind of why I started doing it because I had this whole weird experiment with social media for two years before I went viral. And if you scroll back to my Instagram, my first Instagram post when I first started out trying to be a home decor blogger, like if you want to understand how long it takes sometimes to get to where you want to be, go to my first Instagram posts. I did not know who the fuck I was. I think I was trying to be like

a tradwife in Texas because for some reason at the time when I first started Instagram, all I was looking at were like Texan moms and I was like I'm going to be this and I was getting on stories being like hey y'all I'm from philly okay and I went to NYU and I literally I'm going to send it to you guys because I sent it to my lawyer the other day because he was like talking about oh I need to get comfortable talking in front of the camera and I was like it is a journey like some people are born out of the womb being able to speak naturally on camera I'm going to send it to you guys for a I'm dying to watch. There's the heavy sepia tone.

Whatever that filter is, it's like the Paris filter on ecstasy on my face. And remember those early Instagram story filters where they like literally give you plastic surgery? People had to have like an intervention with me about it. Because like I look back at old videos and I was like, how dare I do that to me? I can't believe this. But if you are not looking back at your old content and thinking it's cringe, you're not doing it right. I'm sorry. You're not growing.

Exactly. Like you need to look back and be like, who was she? I look back a year ago and I'm like, who was? I know. Well, I look at my makeup from two years ago when I first started and I was like, I really thought those caterpillar eyelashes look good? I was like, that smoky eyes like, like, because like my makeup has just gotten so much more minimalist over the last two years, but that's changing. And I think that's great. Like my first Instagram story was me talking about a minwax wood stain pen because our new puppy had scratched the floors. And I was like, I'm going to be a home decor

blogger and maybe get a partnership with Minwax. I don't even know what you're saying. I don't know these words. It's like a little like touch up pen for your floors. Got it. So yes, Minwax is the brand. You're trying to get those pens for free. I was trying to get those pens for free.

The first product I got for free was faux tile. It's like, you know, like faux wallpaper tile that's texture. Yeah. That you can put up instead of real tile. Yeah, I know. My first one was hot sauce. What was yours? Oh, like free product.

Free product. Yeah. Bottle of hot sauce for me. I was like, I mean, that's actually kind of nice. Oh my God, probably like Captain Morgan. I used to work hard with Captain Morgan. Captain Morgan and Samirot paid my bills for years. So they probably weren't the original.

When I met you, you were really in that land. Okay. You were in the alcohol world. Heavy, yeah. With my account, I like a, it was like a funny parody account was called Bros. Being Basic. But even when I was blogging, like the alcohol brands were like, she'll do. Totally. It was good for your brand though.

Yeah. Yeah. I worked with alcohol a lot. So, like, let's back up. You're married. Yes. I am married. I met my husband in 28.

on Bumble. What month? I lied. Oh. You met in 2017, but you started this podcast in 2018. Okay, great. So everybody has the same anniversary. And everybody was like, oh, what's the story of like how you met your husband?

Because all you do is talk about your failures. I'm like, we met on Bumble. It was nothing special. Okay. I almost didn't go to the first date because I was really tired. Totally. You see your story that you dated like 100 men or 20 years? Yes.

Okay. Okay. But it's actually not that ridiculous to think about for any woman who's been in a major city in dating on the apps. If you go on an average of three new dates a week, which I was doing in my 20s when I was single in between relationships, it's just not that hard to amass that number. A hundred first dates, not like a hundred relationships. Right. But it's like, and then, of course, my trolls have to be like, what hard. I'm like, I didn't sleep with, well, I might have slept with a hundred. I don't know. I've lost count.

But. No, but I mean, what was that experience like? I mean, I had a goal in mind. from the time I was, I have never been chill, ever. I've never wanted to hook up and have fun and be casual. I wanted to meet my husband, freshman year of college, first weekend. And I thought I did. I met this guy during orientation. I went to NYU. And he was really beautiful and kind of emo and just like everything that I wanted at the time. And he was like, oh, my parents met freshman year of college. I was like, we're following in their footsteps. Oh, my God. Yeah. And then, Three months later, he broke up with me. Oh, no. So that dream died and that I continuously dated more and more men in college, hoping that they would be my husband, and they weren't. And so after I left college, my senior year, actually, I had a boyfriend who was Jewish and still is Jewish. He's still alive, just not in my life.

And I was so in love with him. And I, NYU has a thing where it's like, it's a lot of Asian women and Asian men and Indian and Jews. So it's very common for Asian women and Jewish men to date at NYU. And I wanted so badly for my future to be a Jewish man's wife. I was like, I was like, I just want to find a nice, too. Full sense. Because it's also the cultural thing is, it's similar. It's like, I just felt like he understood my parents.

I just sort of understood his parents. And the problem was we didn't understand each other, but sure. So he ended up dumping me right before graduation, and then I just completely lost my identity. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm like going out into the world as like a liberal arts major. I was going to pursue acting at the time. I was really unstable. And I thought at least I could hang on to my identity as a Jewish man's wife.

And now that was ripped out from under me. So I was like, okay, so I'm not converting to Judaism yet. Wait till the next one. Wait till the next one. Yeah. Because I told him that. I was like, I'll convert for you. And he was like, that's so sweet, but I want to find a woman who was born into Judaism.

Which I actually think. You could do it on Zoom today, honestly. I mean, it's easier than ever. I'm sorry. That is so fun. You're like, I'll change everything. I'll convert. He's like, I'm all set, actually.

I will burn my life to the ground just so you won't pick up a shred of my dignity and incorporate it into your life. Relatable. Yeah, but that's who I was. And I was like, I totally, I do not blame him at all because I think, college is a time of exploration and it's totally fair that he would want to find a woman who is just born into the Jewish faith. You know, we are all collateral damage in each other's journeys and I've hurt people and I've been hurt by people. And so there are very few good and bad people. Everybody's been the good and the bad guy in a relationship.

So anyways, I then go on a massive online dating spree throughout my 20s. I had long-term relations in between. And then I had a lot of situations, but it's not that hard to. date a lot of people. And I think the reason I did that was because I always wanted a husband. Because I was ever the type of girl who got dumped and was like, I just need a couple months to be single and just like think about how to recover from this. I got dumped. I remember one night on like a Thursday night at 11 o'clock, packed my shit up from the guy's place. I went home and I re-downloaded all my apps and I started swiping for an hour that night. Like it was a job for me.

Like a job. Yeah. Because it is in some ways, that's how I had to think about it because it's so unenjoyable, but the goal makes it worth, like the ends justify the means. And so I was like, okay, if I find my husband, it will be worth it. And it was worth it in the end. And especially now it was worth it because it's part of my career. But like at the time, I was like, this fucking sucks. Why couldn't I have just been one of those girls that met their husband in college and just be done with it? Well, then you wouldn't have this career. Exactly. There we go. So maybe I would be baking pies in Texas. Who knows? Right. Hey, y'all. Yeah. I mean, look, there are women who do that very well.

well, I was just not one of them. It's so ridiculous. Well, and you had defined yourself. I mean, you know all this. I'm not telling you anything you don't know. But you didn't know who you were your senior year in college. What if you had been with the person you met your freshman year in college? You know, who knows? So thank God. Thank God. Do you guys look back at your relationships in college and be like, oh, wow. If I had gotten what I wanted at that time, like I am so grateful that God knew better than me. Like that's how I think. I'm like, I like God was or the universe, whatever you believe in, it's like somebody out there knew so. much better for you than you did for yourself. And I'm grateful for that because if I got everything I

wanted, I would be Jewish at least. I'm 15 Jewish. I mean, I look back at my girlfriends that have been in a serious relationship since they were like 22, 23. And my ones that have really waited a really long time and Ashley got engaged at, you know, 41. Like, and I think like which, which is better, you know, to never have been out there in the world and had all this experience and seen all these things or to have all this pain and all this life experience, you know, what's, what's the path I would choose, like, if I could choose either. I still think I'd pick the path of, like, experience rather than, like, you know? Yeah, I mean, everybody's path is different. I mean, all my college girlfriends married a guy they met while we were in college. And they have beautiful families,

I've still loved their husbands, you know, I was obviously so different than I'm to school in the South also, which is part of it. But, I mean, I built a whole ass career, two companies, thriving and then like settled down with the love of my life. Like I think I did it right. And again, I never wanted children. So there's that too. You know, a lot of women are like, I can't imagine that. You know, I want children. But yeah, I mean, everybody's got a different path. But I couldn't imagine this not being, this is the dopest thing. I know. I like look at my life and I feel so grateful that I went through all that shit because similarly, I have girlfriends who met their husbands very young and now they're getting divorced because I'm 34. So it's like if you kind of settled down before

you knew what you were looking for, a lot of women married the guy that they were only supposed to be with for a few years, not for a lifetime. And it's nobody's fault, but you grow apart and you want different things in life. And I think once you get to a certain age, you know what you want and you find somebody that grows alongside with you as opposed to growing apart. And like I was in my late 20s and my husband was 34 when I met him. And we just, the reason we click is because we want the same things. And it's very hard to want the same things when you don't know what you want. And I didn't know what I wanted in my 20s. I was honestly just secretly hoping for a man to come save me for most of it. Yeah. I think a lot of people feel like that. Like someone else can help me figure out who I am.

Yeah. Like what you said, it's like what I have chosen this life of just like agony to get here. If I knew I was going to get here, yes. But at the time, I would have chosen to be living a life of leisure and just joy and watching my girlfriend struggle through the dating apps like I was. And I would swipe to the point where I would run out of men in New York City. And they'd be like, please take a break. You've run out of men within a 10 mile radius. I never wanted to go into Brooklyn because I'm that bitch. So I was only in Manhattan.

And I would run out of men. But that's what it's like. People are like, oh, I'm so tired of swiping. I'm like, yeah, it gets really fucking awful. But like maybe what it is is also I'm like the daughter. of Chinese immigrants. I was taught, like, life is not about finding pleasure and joy and everything. It's just like life is about struggle. It's always about the struggle. There is meaning in the struggle. My parents, like, we'll never stop struggling, even though they just should fucking retire at this point.

They're defining. Yeah. Maybe that's what it was in me. I'm like, okay, there's meaning in the struggle. There's meaning in the endless swiping and the chats and everything. And eventually that proved to be true, but I didn't know. Right. So I'm just curious. I mean, when you met him, did you have a feeling he was going to be the one? Or was he just another? Was he 102? And you're like, I can't even see, like, I don't know which way's up. Like, when did you know he was special and went on a second date? Yes and no. Because by the time I met him, I was so jaded because I don't know if you guys have been in these situations where like I would go on amazing first dates, like explosive fireworks. You're like, you are my soul. made. Totally. It would last for about a month, two months, three months, and then they all of a sudden turn into a completely different person and lose interest and you're like, did I make that all up in my head? Yeah. So I had so many situations like that where every time I was like, oh my God, I met my husband and it proved to be not true. So by the time I met him, I had no enthusiasm for the sparks in the beginning. But what I will say is the second I saw him, I was immediately

comfortable. So I don't necessarily believe in love at first sight, but I believe in comfort at first sight. and I just felt very at home with him like I kind of knew him already. And so I was like, okay, this could be great. But I also, it was my rule, never to text first after a first date because I just figured like if he's interested, he'll text me. And if he doesn't, then he's dead to me. I think it's a solid rule. My husband's like, Dave is like, so wait, if I never texted you on a second date,

I was an amazing first date, you would have never reached out. I was like, correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, damn. But you did. But you did.

Exactly. So we're here now. All the men that came before you proved me right. And you're like, and if I just would have been 10% more tired, we wouldn't be here either. I know. I've never believed in canceling on somebody's same day. But I was like, I just, you know, just first dates are so exhausting. They're like interviews, right?

And then immediately as soon as I saw him, first of all, he's way cuter than his photos because straight men take horrible dating photos. Well, who's going to take their photos, you know? Oh, his mom. His mom did. I wish, I need to go pull up. He, like, deactivated his Facebook. I'm going to try and find this photo.

he's standing in front of a hydrangea bush in a shirt that's like tucked in a little bit funny like too big and he's just got his hands in his pockets he's not a photogenic person to begin with but like his mom clearly took his dating out photos and he just had like a bunch of random headshots like you know very very budget head shots and then a bunch of group shots of him with all of his buddies from high school and college that to the point where you have no idea which one because they're all wearing hats and vineyards. Like, oh, God, yes. But no, you know, I didn't know. And I didn't know for a while, but I knew it was always easy. And then once we got, I think right around the six month mark, I think that you should know at the six month mark whether it's working or not. And if it's not, you got to get the fuck out. And especially after a year, that's how you stop yourself from getting into these long-ass situationships where you're just wondering. Like, I never questioned with him, not for a second.

And so that's what every woman deserves. It's just a man that not necessarily is love bombing you because I had that where they make you feel like, you know, you're God's gift to man for about three months and then they just disappear. It was a very healthy relationship from the beginning because he was a very well-adjusted person. He would call me after work. He wouldn't be bombarding my phone during the day because he's got shit to do. And we would see each other on the weekends. And he would make plans for the weekend on like a Monday or Tuesday, not last minute on Thursday night because you couldn't find somebody else on the apps. So it was just easy.

think when it's meant to be, it's easy. It's not work. This whole idea that love is work and marriage is hard and love is hard. I think life is hard and life is going to throw lots of shit in your face, but our relationship isn't hard. I love that you said that. And I do think long-term marriages take work. Of course, we believe that. And kids and life and everything. And we don't have kids right now. So come back to me in three years. But the beginning phases. I talk about this with my fiance, because sometimes you talk to couples and they're like, it is so hard. You're going to die. And I'm like, I don't think we're ever going to be.

Yeah, but do you know how many girls that you and I know that you and I know that they're in a relationship with somebody? They just waited them out. It just was so bad for a year, for years, and then the guy just got tired. Wait, really? Yeah. That actually happened? Yeah.

And it's, you know, it's a lot of. It's a lot of agony. It's a lot of like, I didn't know when he was going to commit. And then he eventually committed. There's a few. But that's how your love story is going to start. Like, you're going to be up at the altar. And be like, the way our love story started because you're going to have to tell it over and over again is he did not want to commit to me.

But I wore that man down. Literally, we know stories like that. My family hates him. My friends hate him. My therapist hates him. But I never figured out what it was about me that couldn't let go. And so here we are. Yeah.

But it's like, I always tell women, it's like, you are the grand prize. And we were not taught that. growing up. Like, we're all millennials. It's just like, now I'm Gen Z. They don't give a fuck. Like, they're just like so self-assured in a way that I never was at that age because I was taught that my value lied and who wanted me.

And when you grow up with the Disney princesses we grew up with, I have such a beef with the OG Disney princesses because we did a fucking Moana, you know? Right. It's like, we know, it's no white. He was asleep until a man kissed her, you know. Ariel? My God. Give away your talents for this man. Stop talking. Your voice is going to disappear.

My favorite Disney princess was always Mulan because, yes, identity politics, but also she was such a badass because she was the only Disney princess that was like, I don't need this guy over here. I'm trying to save my fucking village and not to have to send my 70-year-old father to war. Totally. Right. So we grew up with a very skewed idea of what it meant to be a woman. and I think we're on doing that, but I think it's really hard. Yeah, it's a lot of years of breeding. Okay, so I really want to talk to you. We really want to talk to you about how to let go of those type of relationships

so that you can find the ones that do serve you. Because I found you online at a time of my life where I needed to sort of like learn how to let go of something that just was emotionally holding me back. And so, like, I think so many people are in these situations where they're like, this is a situation. This is a guy that won't commit to me. I'm getting sort of what I want, but I can't depend on this person to show up what I want them too. I don't know they're going to introduce me to their family over the holidays. And I think

in the beginning, those kinds of the chase is alluring, but it's hard to like let it go because sometimes they give you like just enough. Yeah. I mean, I have a girlfriend who in our 20s, she went back to a guy no less than 12 times. I actually ended up stopping to count because she was like, I'm doing it. I'm leaving him finally and then she would just go back to him because he gave him, he would give her just enough. And I think for me, in all aspects, right, not just relationships. like I have a hard time letting go of anything. But I just got to a point in my life, especially with my career, because that's obviously, I've been in a stable relationship for the last six and a half years. So it's not always in the forefront of my mind. But my career, it was like, okay, like, I didn't

make it as an actress in my 20s. And that's so hard to let go of that dream. Okay. And I didn't make it as this. And I just kept trying. And I was just like, the process of letting go and for people who DM me and they're like, I just can't let go of this man that I know is bad for you. I'm like, plain and simple, you're going to die one day. And you. And you're just, you're going to die one day. You have no idea what day that is. And if this was your last week on Earth, do you want to spend it fucking around with wondering whether Chad is going to text you back and whether you're going to text him back in three hours and 13 minutes or eight hours and 56 minutes, which is going to be the power

move here? Like, how long can it take? And I think when we really grasp our own mortality, and I know I'm being morbid here, but I mean that, it's like our time here is so finite. And the older I get, the more that I realize that I just, I don't want to spend any time with anybody that makes me feel bad in any capacity. Because if you don't know also what a healthy relationship looks like, sometimes for a lot of women,

if all they're used to is chaos, peace feels like boredom. I was going to ask you if that crept in at all with your now husband. I would flip-flop. No, no, not with him. Because by the time I met him, I had gone to therapy. I had a career that was making me money. I was a real estate agent. And I was like feeling pretty good about myself.

But, like, I just, for the longest time in my early 20s, would go from, like, the emotionally tortured bad boy who could only give me half of what I want, but, like, told me at midnight, you know, after having sex that I was special, right? And then I would get done by him. And then I would go and date a really nice, solid guy that maybe I, like, wasn't that attracted to for whatever reason and be like, this is boring. And then I'd break up with him. And then I'd go back to the bad boy. And, like, it was just always this kind of, like, I couldn't figure out with a happy medium.

was and the reality was it's just like I did not do enough work on myself to figure out like there is a balance like you don't have to find a man who's boring in order to feel stability but before you find that stability in yourself you're never going to get it so like letting go is just this process of like you don't have time to hold on you really don't and when you really think about that I think it's easier look it's easier said than done but also too I know a family friend who has literally been fucking around with this guy for 10 years, 10 years. Yeah. And he has taken all of the best years of her life. She wants to be a mom. That's not going to happen at this point, hoping, right? Just hoping against hope that he would come around. And she's in her 40s now.

And he refuses to come to family functions. And, you know, he's her boyfriend, but he doesn't interact with her. And I'm just like, what is going on here? Why did you put up with this for 10 years? I'm like, that is on you. You are a co-conspirator in your own misery. At that point, you know, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. You knew probably year two, what he was about or year one. Six months in. Yeah.

And you were hoping against hope. And I think what that comes down to is like you attribute some of your self-worth to being with this man and only with this man because you don't think you can do better. And ladies, you can always do better. But it's funny because I will meet the most boss fucking women who have the most amazing fucking careers and just know how to negotiate for themselves in the corporate world or whatever.

And then it comes to a man and they just like crumble. I'm like, what the fuck? You know, it's like women have two brains, I feel like, for their careers and for men. And a lot of times I'm just like, you would never put up with this in your job. Why are you putting up with this in your personal life? Like the ambiguity.

like don't you want to feel like you're going somewhere in your building not just you're just pulling the guy along and so I see that I've seen women just waste so much time hoping and I'm like all that time you could have been out there meeting other people like there are so many people in this world so many well that's the biggest thing for me is like when you think about how much energy you put into this person and you didn't have energy for other people which is understandable because you're getting some kind of dopamine hit and you're getting you're getting some kind of dopamine hit and you're getting some kind of emotional stability from this person that you enjoy. But like, you're foregoing that energy you could be putting towards something else. It's impossible. Right. But not even just

dating all the other things in your life, your career, you know, maybe it's your family. Maybe it's your fitness or your health. Like it affects everything else. And so I think sometimes women who might be listening to this, they're in their 20s, you do have a lot of time. Listen, it's not taking like that, you know, like, but what are you missing out on that you should be building now? I mean, when you we're in a toxic relationship, like, it takes over your life. I mean, when you're just anxious and stressed and distracted, it's so hard to be productive, you know, like, if you're the girlies out there that are like, I want to make it like you guys or whatever you want to do with your life, like, you cannot get there when you're being held back by this toxic relationship. You know, we talk about

like wasting time, but it's like, it's all your tie. It's all this. It's not just finding someone else. It's like actually everything else too. The paralysis of like what happened to me when I was like in my 20th, like waiting for a guy to text me back or you're talking about your friend's boyfriend that won't go to family functions like I would never be able to enjoy a family function if I knew that like maybe he was going to come maybe not I don't know if he'll show up for me like I feel I was so paralyzed inside my body right yeah yeah but I think it's like again it's like what are you ascribing it's the value that we ascribe to being with this person that's the issue it's like if you don't ascribe any of your value to being with this total chat then it's fine but I also think of it like I live in

and there are a lot of old houses in Connecticut that probably should have just been torn down and you start over again. But instead of tearing the whole house down, because there's a house there, it's existing, like let's try to fix it, right? So they add some weird, like, Frankenstein addition onto it. And now the house just looks strange

because it's not proportional and it's the house built in the 50s and then it's just got this, like, cancer growing off of it. But like, now you've got a bigger kitchen. You got a bigger kitchen, but, like, you got other issues. And, like, you know, over time, they keep adding to it because it's like,

it's an old area. And I'm like, this would have just been so much better if you just demolished it and rebuilt a new. I really like this analogy. Right? And it's like, that's your life. And if anything, the only reason I'm here now is because I was always willing to just demolish my life over and over again. I mean, there wasn't much to demolish. It's not like I was building much for the first 20 years.

I was just hoping to find like even a piece of wood to be like, this is a foundation. But I think that's what it is. It's like, why fix something that really just shouldn't be there anymore? Like, just burn it all to the ground and start anew. the soil is, I'm really big into analogies, but like the soil is more fertile after you burn everything to the ground. You can grow more from it. How cruel is it for like another person to just,

we'll say like a man and a woman, like the woman, she keeps trying, she's all this hope, and they know you're going to do it. And they know that you're going to stick around. How cruel is it that somebody else is going to let you do that? And they're just like, I'll just keep letting her doing it until she stops me, you know? Because people are selfish and it benefits him to keep you in his life. and kind of use you as needed.

But it's like, why allow yourself to be entertainment for a man? And I think that's what a lot of people do is it's like women think I'm special. I mean something to him. No, you're special to him in the fact that like you're his Netflix, right? He's bored on a Friday night. He couldn't get another date instead of streaming. He's going to text you and have you come over and you're going to Netflix and chill, right? You are entertainment.

And so do you really want to be that? Like, do you want to deduce yourself to just something that he hits, up because he's bored, right? I agree, yes, with the boredom, but sometimes guys, they go in and out. Some days they do want to have a girlfriend and they want to want to have the girlfriend experience. And the next day, they don't. And that's a lack of consistency. And there's one thing that you should have in a healthy relationship, it is consistency. If there's one thing you should want of somebody, it's consistency. And so I think there's some guys out there that like, they're not faking it. They really are having fun with you on that date. And they're really having fun doing the girlfriend,

boyfriend, experience the next morning on a Sunday lane around doing this stuff. And then they just don't want it the next day, but you keep hoping. And that's the saddest thing, I think, is when you see relationships that have really fallen apart, relationships, I say that loosely, whatever it may be, you have going on. And like, the woman, for an example, is just yearning for those early days. And you're like, those days are over. Yeah. Like, the days when you treat you. It's not going to go, he's not going to, he's not that person anymore. And you're just trying to get it back so badly. And it's, I guess it's hard to be like, it's, that's, that's not reality anymore. Yeah. And it's like you're trying to, you know, it's the first time.

you do a drug is the best time. So my favorite, I'm very, very sober now. I don't even drink. But in my early 20s, I went to NYU, I was a club girl, I did ecstasy. And I will never forget the first time I did ecstasy, Molly, whatever the fuck you want to call it. If you really gets different, I'm like, I don't know, it's all illegal to me. And like, thank God, you know, whatever. What is the drug that's killing everybody?

Fentanyl. Fentanyl was not a thing, whatever. 15 years ago when I was experimenting with my body and my mind. Yeah, no, Sam. Yeah. But I remember the first time I did Molly and I, it was like I was transported to another world and it was amazing and it was so great. But subsequent times were never as good.

And that's what happens with any sort of addiction. And a lot of times like women are not addicted to drugs. They're addicted to men. They make poor choices with men. And like it's the same thing. My dad would always say because he's a scientist, he's like, it's a chemical reaction happening in your brain. Totally.

And when you get broken up with and you get heartbroken, your brain, you're, is depressed, but it just needs to rebalance itself. And that always really helped me because I was like, oh, it's not me. I'm not this sad person. It's just a chemical imbalance in my brain. Absolutely. And so that's what it is. It's like stop chasing that first high.

You're never going to get it again. It's just, it's hard sometimes. I've heard you talking about like meeting people where they meet you. And I think it's tough because I think women's notion is to placate, make things better and to try harder. I mean, that's so many people's notion is he's pulling away. Well, I'm going to go towards it. That's every relationship, too, not just with men and just also with friendships. You know, I have so many women who are like, oh, you know, we're at the age where we might

still be friends with our college friends. We might be pulling away from them. And like, a lot of women are like, I need to hang on to this, right? I need to go even further. I feel this friendship like fading or I feel, you know, this relationship with this family member isn't really working. I mean, I have a friend who is like my mother-in-law has never really liked me. and, you know, I just keep trying and trying and trying.

And she finally stopped. She's like, I can't try anymore. It's like, and for me, the most freeing thing was as a people pleaser, because I thought my worth lied and who liked me, the best thing that ever happened to me was just realizing that I don't actually give a shit if people don't like me and actually most people, like, not most people. Most people shouldn't like me. We like you.

You're our people. Well, like, you know, it's like, it's okay to be disliked by somebody for who you are. Totally. And meeting people where they meet you, it's like, you know, it's, so funny when you stop groveling what happens essentially to men, friends, anybody, family members, and you see that they're like shocked that all of a sudden you're just not there anymore to really, and then you don't have a relationship because you are the only one keeping that relationship. And so with a man, so many of us have been in this position where it's like you just keep going

the extra mile because they're never going to come to you and then you stop and they're like, wait a minute. And the men who don't know what they want and they just want to fuck around, that's when they come to you. And then you're like, oh, well, you came to me now. Should I come to you? And they're like, oh, never mind. I got it again. Okay.

Just going to take a quick break. And then we will get back into it. I'm so excited to talk about aura frames today. So many people in my family are getting these frames. I am so obsessed with them and I'm so excited to gift them to people. This is the number one digital frame featured by everybody, wire cutter, the strategist, Wired, recommended by Fast Company, Wall Street Journal, Forbes. Everybody is obsessed with this.

But I can tell you why I'm obsessed with it. So it's going to be this frame that you're going to gift. It comes in this beautiful. packaging, the frames themselves are beautiful. We're talking about the carbon mat frames today. And they're super easy to set up. It takes about two minutes. You're going to do it with the app.

And then you're just going to upload your photos on it. So there can be multiple people on it. So let's just say you want to give this to a grandparent, which I just love. And I don't have any grandparents left. But if I did, you know, this is such a nice thing they could have in their home. And then their kids and grandkids could be uploading photos to it. And they never know what's going to pop up. You know, like you're kind of on the back end.

putting the photos in and there is free unlimited storage. It's private. So you have complete control over who is access to the frame and the photos look like real prints. So they really make them look amazing. There's interactions. You can react with emojis. There's interactive touch bar, smart photocropping, brightening. And we just love it. I mean, I think this is the perfect gift. The packaging is so beautiful. And you know what I was thinking. I'm going to ask me to my sister-in-law sent me like a really, really wonderful housewoman gift. But I would like to buy myself an aura frame and I want her to upload photos the baby. Because every single day, I'm like, send me those baby photos there in London. I don't get to see them. But like, every day he changes and every day I want you photos of that baby.

Totally. That is a great thing. Yeah, you buy it for them. And then you're like, now you got to put photos on it. Here, give me your phone. Here's the app. So we just love it. And you guys can get on it. I mean, if you're like, what do I get for somebody? This is going to be it. So save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off or his best selling CarverMat Frames by using promo code G. G. G. Check out. That's A-U-U-R-A-Frames.com. Promocode GGE. This deal is exclusive to our listeners. So get yours now in time for the holidays, terms and conditions apply. Do you have advice for how to end these relationships? Because just like you said, like you might pull back one day and then they're coming at you. You know, like, how do we get over

these people? Yeah. Because there's a lot of good in these relationships. You wouldn't keep going back if you didn't enjoy a lot of that. Love is rare and finding people you like is hard. And you can love the wrong person. It's like, I don't really subscribe to the theory that it's like it's only love if it's easy. No, you can fall in love with a totally wrong person. It could be toxic, but it's still love. Yeah. Thank you very much. Because we had a guess that I was talking about like the first person I fell in love and he was like, well, that's not love. I was like, excuse me, sir. Also, everyone hated you in this episode. Our audience hated you. We should take it down. You guys know I'm talking about. But yeah, tried to tell me. I'm like, no, it was love. It was fucked up.

It was dysfunctional, but it was just. This is why I always say love is not enough to sustain a relationship. I'm not just love. I'm not just love. But it was love and I enjoyed it. I felt it deep in my core. You enjoyed a lot of stuff about it? I'm kidding.

No. So how to let go? We're like, oh, but it's not all bad, right? Because if it was all bad, then you wouldn't care. Totally. But like, it could be all good. And like, you're not thinking about that. It's like, oh, but it's not all bad.

And I'm never going to find a person that I click with. Maybe I'll find somebody that is the other 50% that he's not. But I'm never going to find. the other 50% that he is. And it's probably not that important how special he is. Honestly, like, I've clicked with so many men where I'm like, you're so unique.

Nobody's that special. Like, you really have to think of it. Like, you are special and your relationship with yourself is special. Stop putting this man on a pedestal. Once you really get out of the relationship, can you then see clearly in every single guy that I was with

that I thought was so different and we had this chemistry? It really wasn't. It was just me gaslighting myself. Because it's just easier. It's easier to stay in what you know even if it is dysfunctional because it's the devil you know. And inertia is a very powerful force.

And I actually, you know, I thought about this in relation to dating because this is really weird. But my 401K was always with Vanguard. I'm going somewhere with this. Okay. I used to have that. Yeah, you did. My 401K was always with Vanguard. And they recently sold their 401k retirement division to a company called a census.

Never heard of a census. sent me all these letters being like, your money is going to a census. I was like, okay, whatever. I just like ignored all of them. And they're like, final notice, if you want to get your money out of Vanguard before it goes to a census, you should, it's actually too late now. I was like, oh, it's fine. I was like, and then I finally was like, I should look into where the hell my retirement is going. So I Googled, you know, what's going on with this census migration. And I like found this money blog and this guy being like, okay, they're like fine. They're like, they've been around for a while. It's good. And then I logged in and I couldn't figure out how to use the interface. And I was

just like, this is so fucked up. And the guy in this blog post on this money blog, he's like, here's what most people are going to do with this migration. Nothing. They will just accept a census, even if it isn't the most functional platform. I'm so sorry if you work at a census. I had no fucking idea how to. We'll bleep it.

No kidding. Yeah, I was like, I was a sponsor on this episode. I'm kidding. No. You guys hit ascensus.com slash g-G to get started today. Well, I moved my money to fidelity, and they're actually great. Okay. So get fidelity on your butt.

I was like, and I just, I don't know why that stuck out to me so much because it was just such a moment where I was just looking for financial advice, but I was like, that's so applicable to all aspects of your life. He's like, you know, 90% of people will not do anything because it's just easier to maintain the status quo, even if it's not the best thing for your money. And I was like, I will not be that because I actually would have been. I was the one ignoring all the letters. I was like, you know, whatever. It's not good for us. But I also think like the, when you feel so numb in a relationship or you never, are you going to hear from somebody and the lows are low, the highs are the fucking highest.

You're, oh my God, you feel so good because somebody finally showed up for you. And it's like, it shouldn't feel like that. Like, the lows shouldn't feel so low and the highs shouldn't feel so unexpected as a win. Right. And I like what you said of people kind of hold on to whatever percentage, 30, 40, 50 percent of a person. He's really funny. He makes me feel no one's going to get me like this. He really listens to me, you know, like all this stuff.

And it's like, what if you could have it all be good? No, I don't know, 80 to 90. You know, and I think people get hung up on like one trait or one thing they think they won't find in someone else. And I was talking to a friend recently and we were talking about another friend. And I don't know. I don't think she's in the best relationship for her. And she's been with this guy a long time and they're engaged and he's like a bad dude. It's just like I don't think I think she could have more.

I think she could have a better relationship. And I asked the friend, the engaged friend said, well, he makes me happy. And I said, I think what she means is he doesn't make me unhappy. And I think we hear horror stories and I think she's saying like, well, he doesn't make me unhappy. Like I really felt like I didn't even hear it come from her mouth and I like read between the lines knowing what I know. And my friend was like, yeah, wow, okay, I think that's what she meant. And I'm like, I think that people are just willing to go along with something that's not terrible. You know, like what else.

Yeah, yes, that's what it is. It's, you know, like where are our standards? But again, it's like being willing to sit in discomfort and being single and wanting to be in a relationship is extremely uncomfortable. And a lot of women, if they have good enough but not great, don't want to deal with the discomfort. But anybody who gets anywhere in life and gets what they want, most of them have to deal with discomfort.

And everyone, I mean, think about you guys starting this podcast, right? It's like, it's all the same. It's like starting your influencer careers. It's insanely uncomfortable in the beginning. But there was something in you that you were like, I'm willing to suck it up because for the possibility of a better life. I mean, it's like the immigrant story, right, that I was talking about. It's like my parents were like, we could just stay in China and around all of our family and maybe not live the life we want to be living, but live a comfortable life. And they're like, no, we're going to uproot ourselves, go to a different country, struggle for 15 years and hope that it gets better.

But like, again, I don't think the point of life is to be happy. I think the point of life is to live a life meaningful enough that it makes the shitty parts of life, the inevitable shit, worth it. So how do we leave? Everybody has to hit a breaking point. And I really don't think it doesn't matter what I say. It doesn't matter what your girlfriend say. You have to see. And it always comes down to a point where if he doesn't leave, you have to see something so heinous in him that you were like, I can never unsee this.

And if you don't get to that point, it takes so much courage to walk away. I have a girlfriend who's literally going through a divorce right now with an amazing guy. He's so great. But they are just going into very separate directions in their lives. And she's known for a while that it wasn't working. And I just thought I was like, she's never going to leave. I was like, because it's working out. And he's a really good guy.

It's so hard to leave a good guy. But she ended up leaving. And I said, you know, why did you decide to do this? Because she was like, I just knew in my heart that I deserve better. And if you don't feel like you deserve better, you're never going to leave. And it's so easy for us to be here, be like, you deserve better, right?

What does that actually mean? It's not, you know, I'm not going to tell you how you need to figure that out. It's like, for me, it was yours of therapy. It was realizing that I needed to get financially stable on my own. Money was a huge factor in me feeling like I could finally let go of this idea that this man was going to save me

because for so long I was like doing gig work in the city while I also auditioning. And once I got into real estate, you know, my old job before I was an influencer, I was like, oh, I can, make a living, pay my bills, have disposable income, save money, all on my own. That freed me in a way that honestly, no therapy couldn't do that for me. And so that's why I always advocate for women. It's like, go figure out how to make money because it's not even so much about the

money itself. It's about what that money represents and it's freedom. And so maybe the first step is like, go get a promotion. Like, go get really good at your job and then realize that you have worth outside of the man that you're with. And as soon as you start reinforcing that, like I have worth in my career, I have worth with my friendships, my family, I have this big, beautiful life outside of this man. Like, why do I need him?

And that's how you leave, so leave it surely. I like to acknowledge also that everybody is a really different breaking point. Right. You know, but the answer after you kind of realize I don't feel good inside of my body isn't wait around longer, try harder, give them more passes, look the other way long, you know.

And I really validate. that that's hard because when you find somebody and you're like, they get me. And this is my really close friend and I love their company. People around me love them. You know, it's hard to be like, this isn't enough. Fuck you walk away. Because like, you see people around you and bad relationships too and you're like, I'm walking away for that shit. Yeah, exactly. So I understand the notion to want to like wait around, but this is the ultimate like if they wanted to, they would. Like six months in, a year in, if somebody wanted to be with you, like they would be with you. And I think a lot of women, I don't want to keep saying a lot of people resort to like saying, well, I'm

much. I'm asking too much. It's like, you're just asking the wrong person. Well, that's the easy thing to do is because if you constantly blame yourself, you are the only person you can control. Yeah. So if you say, I'm too much, I need to change. I said that all, you know, when my Jewish boyfriend was dumping me in my, you know, illegal studio apartment in New York City, I was like, I will call you less. I won't text you on the Sabbath. I know your phone's off. I was like, I'll be less. I basically will disappear. You know, I will disappear from your life, but I still want to be your girlfriend, right? You know, it's, it's just more like this idea of how much can you diminish yourself before you don't exist anymore. And like bartering. Right. Yeah, like you're bartering with

somebody to be with you. We've gone astray. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, some women haven't. Some women are just like, I have a few girlfriends. So I'm like, you were just born out of the womb with self-worth, right? How the fuck did you do that? But I had, it was a long, hard journey. And I think I still struggle with it. You know, it's never ending. It's like, I still walk into rooms and I'm like, I still feel like an imposter. You know, that Martha Stewart thing, it's like, I can't remember who's interviewing her because she's having such a moment right now. Oh, yeah.

She's like, I've never felt imposter syndrome. I'm like, I love that. I wish I related, but I basically feel like an imposter everywhere I go. So it's like, you're doing amazing. You know, but it's like, but I don't know. Like, whatever, it is who I am. It's like admitting anything differently. It's like, I am confident because I'm scared, right?

It's just like it's all intertwine. It's the yin and the yang in life. Obviously, this whole career is very new to me. I've only been doing it for two years. It's like I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop. And this is an extremely up and down job. They're the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. It's like a bad relationship basically, right?

But I'm in it and I love it and I can't imagine doing anything else and I fault my whole life to get here. So I'm in it and it's just like figuring out how to manage the fact that the highs are never quite as good as you think they are and the lows are never quite as bad as you think they are. But, you know, it's a journey. Yeah, and you have a stable partner. Yeah.

I have a stable partner. And I have a wonderful family. Imagine if you didn't. Imagine if you had the instability of this career on top of an unstable partner that, like, made you feel like that. Like, can you imagine? The way some women just juggle instability in all aspects of their life and they just suck it up because, again, it's like you get comfortable with pain. And then you just become numb to it.

I mean, I literally had a girlfriend say to me other day, she's married. And it's been dysfunctional for a while. And I was like, what are you guys doing? Like, are you okay? And she's like, I mean, I'm fine. But I just feel dead inside. And I was like, that's where we've ended up. And she's like, yeah, I just feel dead inside.

But it's fine. I exist. And it's almost easier to feel dead and numb than it is to feel anything at all. Because she's like, nothing's going to change. That's really sad. I know. I think we get comfortable in these feelings. And I think that a lot of it's from childhood, obviously.

And the type of relationships that we're talking about, You get comfortable kind of almost like competing for somebody's love. Yeah. That's a comfortable feeling for me. Like I grew up really wanting like one of my parents to like me, love me, and it's a comfortable feeling for me. Because it wasn't given to you freely. Yes.

Stability was given to me freely. But likeing me, enjoying me, really loving me as a person was not given to me freely by one of my parents. But it's a comfortable place for me to be. Exactly. And it doesn't always, everybody thinks it's like daddy issues, right? It's not always daddy issues and it's not always necessarily. It's from childhood.

but like you know where your shit comes from. My shit comes from the fact that I was one of the only kids of color in Pennsylvania growing up. And I had to work so hard to make friends my entire life. And it was always just this like I always felt like the odd man out. I was bullied. And my parents had a really loving home and they always made me feel valued. And I was kind of a weird Asian kid.

Like all of their friends kids were like acing the SATs when they were like eight. And I just wanted to sing and dance. just like, you know, wear funny hats. And they just let me, like, they let my freak flag fly, right? They were like, go be you. You know, my dad's tip on parenting, which I will definitely take when we have kids because it just sounds like the easiest route. He was like, I just think that you should let children grow like weeds, whichever way they

want to grow. And my husband's like, yeah, that could have ended up really poorly because you could have ended up like an addict or whatever, like not. You just happen to be very driven, right? So you ended up somewhere. But like, he's like, I don't know, we should probably take some happy meat. medium between like, you know, how my parents raised me and like how your dad just was like, go do whatever. But I never felt like I didn't belong at home, but I always felt like I didn't

belong at school, which is like seven hours of your day. And when you're a kid, you just want to feel loved and accepted by whoever for you as a parent. For me, it was by the kids in school. And so I never really understood that that's where it was coming from until much later in life. I was like, I don't have daddy issues. Like, you know, I'm fine. I was like, oh, it's because I'm used to this dynamic of having to work for love and acceptance outside of my family. And that's why it feels familiar. And that's why I'm going after these men that are halfway interested. But I feel like I have to work for the rest of it. And it feels like a win. It's like, oh, a prize. You don't want the prize, okay? Right. Yeah. I think that's going to resonate with a lot of people.

Yeah, me too. Well, can we like close out with closure? Yeah. I think that, you know, we want to end these relationships and feel like really good about it. And we were heard and seen. And Who doesn't want to end any relationship with like good closure? So maybe I like your thoughts on like asking the person that's doing this to you for the closure. Fucking bullshit. Oh my God. I think closure is such a myth because if a relationship is ending, it's ending because it wasn't good. Okay.

Nobody's like, we were the one and it just happily ended. Okay. Sometimes it's amicable and I'm not saying it has to end in an explosion. But most of the time it's really heartbreaking. It is a loss. And a lot of times people are very confused. And I don't know if I really subscribe to the theory that there is ever a mutual breakup. You know, people are like, oh, it was a mutual breakup.

I'm like, yeah, but somebody had to initiate it. Okay. There's always, I think, one person. Even if both people know that it wasn't working, there's always one person that really didn't want to be in the relationship. And I think there's one person that wanted to make it work. And that's usually the person looking for closure because they weren't ready to close the door. And it's like, why would you go back to the man who hurt you and ask him to heal you?

It's like an addict. Again, sorry for all the drug references on here. But it's like the addict's like, I'm just going to do it one more time, just to feel it one more time. And then I'll be done, right? And it never is. You're never done. So it's like give yourself that closure. Like women just need to take the agency for rewriting your own story.

So I remember one time I got dumped by my boyfriend who I was madly in love with and he halfway dumped me. He was like, I'm just not ready to be in a relationship right now. I'm really messed up. It's me. Blah, blah, blah, not you. I want to stay in touch. I want to, you know, it was really fucked up that I agreed to this, but he was like, I want to take you out to dinner on the anniversary of the day we met once a month and just catch up, but not date you. And I was like, sure, that sounds great. So I did that for a few months. That is a torture. It was torture. Yeah. But how I freed myself was I finally was like, I'm going to write him a letter. And I just didn't even know if I was going to send it at the time.

I was just like, I'm just going to write out all my thoughts because I'm so confused and it was just so helpful. And I just, I wrote and I wrote and I wrote for like two hours. And then I like edited. And I was like literally, it was like a college essay, honestly, at this point. I was like, this is the common app. And by the end, it was just a very clear distillation of how I felt. And I was like, this is great. I'm going to send it to him.

And I don't care if you read it because it was just like me freeing myself. Like, I'm not saying you have to write a letter. Maybe you don't like writing. You know, it's like, but there are things you can do that everybody can do to take agency back. And I think that's what we feel as women, as we feel powerless when we are not the ones to end the relationship and, like, take the power back in whichever way you can. For me, it was writing a dumb-ass letter and sending it to him. Yeah. Like, people do that all the time.

Well, you did send it. Did you ever respond? No. Okay. But it's okay. You have to, like, get it out of your body. Yeah. I think that is the way to take the power back.

This person's made you feel really powerless for so long. at least you can be the one to say like it stops now exactly yeah and i love that quote and reina had told me that quote too that you can't expect the person who hurt you to heal you yeah i think that's really powerful well that's what people do yeah you know it's like go back to the scene of the crime right like maybe it'll hurt less this time yeah yeah yeah totally just miss this time right and it's like it's always worse the second time too and i always think that past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior. Yeah, sure, some people change, but most of the time they don't. Most of the time it's just the same shit. Yeah, I think, you know, it's some person who you've had this situation with or whatever

you have going on that's been like hurting you or keeping you on the hook, someone's stringing you along. Like, it really is a kind of crazy thought to be like, well, they'll give me something that'll make me feel better. It's like, why in the world would that person do that after the weeks or months or years that they've been stringing you along. Why would they be the person to make it better? Exactly. But we do that. And it's illogical. And it's just, again, it's rooted in our insecurity that we will never find better. And like there's so much better out there for you. And we've all been there all three, four, eight, ten thousand. You know, it's like we've all been there. In any way, I think it's helpful to know that you're not special. You're not the

only person who's ever felt this. And other women have gotten themselves out of it and live amazing lives because they gave themselves the closure. So give yourself an amazing life. Man, I love you so much. My perfect way to wrap it up. We really just encourage people to go to your TikTok, your Instagram. Your advice is so great. And you started the podcast. You've had a lot of former guests of ours on the podcast already.

And so we're, you know, we look forward to seeing what else you do. Tell everybody where they can find you. You can find me across social media at maybe both. And my podcast is Brutely Anna. I love it. Well, congrats on everything. Thank you. And you guys know where to find us.

Girls Gotta Eat.com. Our final shows. this weekend in Boston. If there are tickets left, you can grab those at Girls Gotta Eat.com. Girls Gotta Eat Podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Hess. Raina is reina.

gneberg. Subscribe on YouTube. Share this episode with a friend who may need it. And we will see you Thursday. Have a good week, guys. Bye.