Girls Gotta Eat - How to Manage and Make Sense of Fighting in Your Relationship with Dr. Orna Guralnik

Episode Date: April 10, 2023

We are honored to have clinical psychologist Dr. Orna Guralnik of Showtime's acclaimed show Couples Therapy join us to talk about conflict within a relationship. We discuss first of all the importance of having differences in a relationship, then get into how to better understand your partner during a fight, what is a fight vs. a discussion and who gets to say, and determining if the conflict is about the actual content or just the delivery. We also discuss what to do when you're having the same conflict over and over (examples include: household responsibilities, infidelity, having children), the concept of "never go to bed angry," managing your anger, and apologizing. Before Dr. Orna joins us, we're catching up on Rayna's hot neighbor and art gallery crush, Ashley's nails and new car, and announcing new tour dates. Enjoy! Watch Couples Therapy with Dr. Orna on Showtime (season 4 premiering 4/28), and visit OrnaGuralnik.com. Follow us @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit our website for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Shop Vibes Only. Thank you to our partners this week: Daily Harvest: Get up to $65 off your first box at dailyharvest.com/gge. Calm: Get 40% off a premium subscription at calm.com/gge. Helix: Get 20% off all mattress orders + 2 free pillows at helixsleep.com/gge with code HELIXPARTNER. NextEvo: Get 20% off your first order of $40 or more at nextevo.com/gge. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

If you're really looking for a fight, you're going to look for like the one word that your partner said that is really, ah, gotcha. And if you're looking for a way to connect, you're going to ignore all those triggers and you're going to find the heart in what your partner is saying. Girls got to eat. Welcome back. Azul. Would you like to join us? Raina is a little below the line. She needs a little therapy. I'm not below the line. I've been staying above the line considering the amount of stuff we've had to do and the amount of travel.

I mean, the travel is for work and that's fun. But I think I hit the line today. You're right at it. I'm hovering. You'll get above it. You'll get above it. Well, recording always puts me in a good mood. I feel like the show, I mean, I always think it's great, but I've just like loved the last few women we had on the show.

We've been an amazing woman this week. And it's just been like bangers. Women only. Yeah. What do you know? Except for you as all? I'm hands free. It's weird.

I don't know what to do with them. So we're recording at Ashley's, which is really nice. It's going to be all comfy on this couch. I hate going to a studio. I can't wait to build ours. If you're watching, the art is here. Should I bring it in the frame? Did you even see it?

Wait, why do I feel like I saw it? Where is it? It's right there. You've got somebody walked it. Let me get it. I just want to show the YouTube. I'm having my mounting guy come and do some stuff, but this is the... I'm behind it.

Is it so unbranded? I love it. I think it's really unique and beautiful. Also, is it the same guy that's been doing work at my house? No. I have so many updates for everybody today. I'm so excited. I have a neighbor update. I have a art gallery update. I have a house update. We just have so much going on. I have a different mounting guy. His name is Igor. He's a different mountain. Should I use your kind of mount? I don't know. I just, your task rabbit to build furniture is unparalleled. He's incredible. Yeah, I might have him. Have you had him mount yet? I have not had him mount, but I had him hang a chandelier and all my string lights outside. No, he's great. I just, you haven't mount yet. I do

need some things mounted. Yeah, I mean, use him. If they say they mount, they do mount. But it's not for everybody. Some of them don't mount. Mounding is hard because you're drilling into a wall. Like, remember when Dylan, I tried to have him mount one floating shelf that was three pounds? Yeah. I will never, that's the biggest hole I've ever seen at a wall. Dylan. It's so crazy. He's a friend of ours, he's a comedian. He's been on the show and he looks like he would be really capable. He is not. Rob was so upset. He was like, we need to teach him some life skills. But Igor did the TV, and then I just really liked his crazy laser level thing. So that picture can hang there.

I can do it myself. I just need him to do the level for me. So he's coming tomorrow. So I'm just going to wait. And then I have like floating shelves and we're really getting there. I can't recommend paying someone else to help you with this stuff enough. Well, I can't do it. I can't like, I mean, guy friends and stuff.

Like Rob would have mounted that TV in 12 seconds, but he wasn't in town. And so I'm like, yeah, I can't mount a TV. It's so funny. You know that means like I'm a feminist, except for everyone. it comes to like, what is it, like, paying for the check or something. I'm a 5 and 6th ever when it comes to, like, things around my house. Like, I'm all good. I'm just going to pay people to come help me unpack, mount, hang things.

Like, yesterday I was like, I'm just going to take all the boxes out to the street. And there was like 30 to 35 boxes. And it took me hours, actually, took me two hours to break every box down, break it out, like stack them in a way that's not like a huge asshole for the neighborhood. And I was like, where have two hours gone? I know. I'm never going to do it again. Time is money.

I mean, I will do, I'll do a lot. I will do a lot, a lot. And, like, you know, I used to do it all. I didn't have money to pay people. Those apps didn't even exist. You know, like, I've always just hung all my stuff, done all my own stuff, like, tried to get people to help me. But, yeah, now it's nice to be able to be like, doot-to-do, get in the app.

Yeah, some stuff I'm also not strong. To hot guy. Get them to come over. You watch and build stuff. I can't recommend using TaskRabbit as a dating app enough. So I said this thing to Ashley yesterday, and it applies to TaskRabbit, too. Like, in L.A., like, the thing that's, like, one of the biggest changes, for me is like all the places that use me

like my safe space still is like dog shit, like the grocery store at the doctor's office where I would just roll up looking so bad are no longer safe to look like dog shit. And task rapid stuff is the same too. Like everybody is hot. I look so ugly at home. The task rabbit shows up. He's so hot. I went to the eye doctor yesterday. He was a

10 smoke so hot. I go to the grocery store. Everyone's hot. Where can I go look ugly here? I know. Like where can you go? What is safe? What's safe? Probably Skid Row. I bet you even they're hot there.

Everybody's hot. Well, we promise you guys that we would announce new dates for the fall and the winter. We are so excited. So without further ado, we're not going to tease this any longer.

We have tons of dates. We're really excited. Snack City Tour. So there's eight shows left right now of the current tour. So please get those tickets. And then we will see you in the fall. Do you want to kick it off?

Okay. I feel really excited about this first. Oh my gosh. You guys, we are coming to the U.S. UK. First show in London ever in Girls Got Eat History. I can't even believe it. September 9th, 9-9, very easy to remember at the Indigo at the 02. Is that what we say? Yeah, my brother and my sister-in-law, who are living there now went and they were just, they took a picture outside. They were like,

I can't wait to see you here. It was so excited. I waited. First ever London show, I can't believe it. Get those tickets. I have a feeling they're going to go quick. You guys have been begging us to come for literally four-ish years. Yeah. We've been trying. Yeah, we really did. This was on the books pre-COVID. We tried to do it. It's just whatever. Like, we're finally making it happen, but it's always been something we've been

wanting to do. And then we are coming back to Texas on Thursday, September 28th, Austin, again, at the Paramount Bomb Theater. We love it. Then the next night, Friday, September 29th, we are in Dallas at the Majestic. Again, that show. Holy shit.

Unhinged. The stripper Hit me with a belt, Ashley. The Dallas last time was one of those times where I was like, I don't know what's happening. I haven't looked down at my outline in an hour. People were standing in the aisle. Remember it was just like, people were just like, not in their

scenes. Like, I mean, it's Texas, so no rules. Dallas business car guy came up and like choked me and was like spitting me around. And then he does like teach some classes. It's like not his main thing, but like some of his students. Oh, students were like in the audience. Dallas business card guy. Oh my God. Totally forgot. That's the origin story.

Friday, October 13th, Charlotte at the Fillmore. And finally coming back to Atlanta, October 14th at the Buckhead Theater. I'm so excited to play there. I used to throw parties there. I had so many New Year's Eve, Halloween parties. I worked with this social group called a social mess, and we threw all these parties. And so I have just been up in there so much, partying so hard, so wasted. And so it's funny that we're performing there.

But I'm really excited we could reschedule that show for you guys on October 14th, Sunday, October 15th. Sunday, October 15th, we will be in Nashville, finally coming back to Nashville, Tennessee Performing Arts Center, and then Thursday, October 26. We're in Portland at the Newmark Theater, so that's different than that we did before. We really wanted to, like, do something different. Yes, and then the very next night will be in Vancouver, October 27th, at the Vogue Theater. Then we're heading to Seattle, October 28th, the Moore Theater.

San Francisco, November 3rd, the Masonic, Los Angeles. We'll be at the 8th Theater. So we're coming back home for a show, November 4th. And then right back out again to San Diego, November 8th at the Boutboa Theater. And then we are rounding out the year. So special. I feel like I'm going to cry our holiday shows. Toronto, we'll be there in December 8th.

I'm doing, like, emotional about it. Really excited. It's really one of our, like, biggest markets. We're so excited. And then New York, we're going to, why am I crying? We're ending the tour, this Nack City tour in New York City at the Beacon Theater. So it's, why? Am I good?

You've been out of so many tours on this show. But we will list all this on our Instagram. All of the dates are. going to be on the website now. The links will not work if you click them. It'll say the show's not on sale yet. So all shows go on sale April 17th, 10 a.m. local time. Okay. So all of this is going to be on our website so you guys can just plan for it and go ahead and get ready to get into the queue. But all this will actually be on sale April 17th in the morning, 10 a.m. Your local times. Yes. Oh my gosh. I cannot wait. And we will see you guys out there.

Yeah, we're so excited. We've been trying to like make up these shows in Atlanta, Nashville and Charlotte for so long. So we're really so amped. And then we just got back from the most fun weekend in Milwaukee and Minneapolis. Yes, we had the best time in Milwaukee and Minneapolis. That was our sixth sold out show in Minneapolis over the years. And our first time in Milwaukee, Cream City, which one girl messaged? She didn't like our jokes about Cream City. Girl, what are you talking about? All they did was make dirty Cream City jokes. Bitch, if you didn't think we were coming to a city called Cream City, and that would be the story arc of the whole show. You don't know us at all. Also, it was dirty jokes. What did you think was going to happen in that room? We have not made it clear

enough that these are filthy, dirty shows. Anyway, we really loved Milwaukee. We stayed this great hotel, the Iron Horse, and had such a good time, Minneapolis goes about saying. So thank you guys for coming out. We really truly had the absolute best time, and these shows just keep getting wild and crazier. We added a whole new element of this last tour in Minneapolis that we tested out. So that's going to be integrated into all the shows going forward. It was like the funniest thing because me, you and Tessa were like in the airport together and we were like brainstorming. I feel like Tessa had this idea. And then you and I at the same time, said the exact same thing. All three of us conceptualized it's like really fun thing. So we're

really excited to do this at the shows with you guys. I just have to say this thing. So I think it was our first flight out. We had a layover in Denver. And I was sitting next to this man. And he was fine. Whatever. He got on the plane. He was on a call being all out. Whatever. but then he just kind of, I was in and out of sleep. I fall asleep as soon as the plane takes off and I'm just like asleep the whole time. So I'm in out of sleep and I hear him ordering drinks, whatnot. You know, I'm fading in and out. You know, you always have turbulence going over the mountains in Denver.

So we're about to land in Denver. Really shaky, turbulent. It's the most turbulence you'll ever feel. It's a lot of turbulence. It's just kind of what it is. He doesn't wake up. When I tell you, I'm not afraid to fly anymore. I've done a lot to get there.

Like, I'm not afraid of turbulence. This was extreme. I can't. It was extreme turbulent. Yeah. So the turbulence woke me. Maybe I was already up, whatever. It was significant.

And then we landed in this kid in front of us is screaming. Like, we're, the plane dropped onto that runway. I mean, if you know what it's like to fly in the way of plane lands, like, he did not wake up. I'm like, this is unreal. Like, if you don't wake up when the plane lands, that is a jolt to the system. I was like, this is shocking. So I'm like, what is going on? And he stays asleep the whole time.

We're ready to get off the plane. People are getting up. They're getting their bags. I'm in the window seat, obviously, so I can control what's happening with my window shade. And I'm like, I have to wake this motherfucker up to get out. It is really so funny. You texted me. This guy's still asleep.

I'm looking at him. Everybody in the plane is standing up, unlatching the things to get all their suitcases down. Suitcases are hitting the ground. This guy's just asleep. And I'm trapped. I can't get out. He's man spreading while he's sleeping. And so I just like tap him.

The way he looked at me, that man did not know where he was. He was so wasted. And then I like had this memory of as I was falling asleep, him ordering like double doers on the rocks. Like I was like, oh, he is fucked up. And he looked at me so confused. And I was like, I don't know what to say to him. I have to get out. I have to like deplane.

And he was just like, ooh. And he finally just gathered himself and like let me just moved his legs a little bit. He still could not stand. He just moved his legs so I could shimmy out and get my bag. I was like, that man is not well. I was like, Frana. That guy was blacked out. I wanted the after.

Yes, exactly. Like to land and be like, where am I? That is, have you ever been that drunk on a plane? I don't want a drink on a plane. I'll have like one drink maybe. I've never gotten like drunk on a plane. This is not my vibe. I have all the respect to the world.

for people that get on a plane at 7 a.m. and start ordering liquor. Respect. Love your truth. I'm just looking at it like, how did this happen? How do we get here? I love when I go to the Delta Lounge, it's like seven in the morning and somebody has two drinks in front of them. Yeah. Like, what are you doing today? Like, I have so many questions about your afternoon. I mean, some people just view the travel experience as drinking related. Like, that's the party time. So I feel like that's, you know it when you see it. Like, I'm usually in the minority not ordering a drink. Well, my bounce back is different than most people's. I mean, you know me.

I have one drink. I stopped drinking. I have a hangover. She's instant. So, like, a lot of people, most of my friends can, like, have two drinks of lunch and, like, go on with their day. I cannot. Yeah.

Yeah, I just, with the altitude, like, it doesn't really go well for me. I feel like instantly more dehydrated. But yeah, usually if I'm, like, also from flying in, like, a long flight, a lay flat, I like to get a glass of wine and, like, watch a movie. Like, that's luxurious. You know, I were a couple years ago when my dad had that fake stroke, and then I was having, like, a psychotic meltdown, and I flew to Pittsburgh, I'm going to start drink at the airport at like two in the afternoon.

I had like two to three drinks in the airport. And I got on the plane and they gave me two more drinks. I was blacked out drunk. It's the drunkest I've ever been at an airport on an airplane. And the flight attendant comes over me. She was like, I didn't want to bother you. But I was like, no, no, no. She was like, we are all such fans of your show.

And I was like, I can't talk to a person right now. I'm so drunk. That's so funny. And then I just want to give one more update. My nails. I'm really feeling them. Last week I said, I'm not trying to get used to him. They're an inconvenience.

and you really do just get used to it. The thing is like, when you get these, you just don't realize how strong they are because you're doing stuff that if your natural nails were this long, they would just break. You know what I'm saying? So I think you have to adjust to be like, these are strong and they can, you know,

pull your leggings up and not break. Oh, yeah. Well, these are specifically. And like everything is, I've figured it out. Typing, I'm still a little slowed down. But yeah, the nail tech was right. She was like, give it three days and you'll adjust. and I obviously have loved the way they look from the start.

But so many you guys message me and people are like, you should do SNS and set of gel. And I just, I like the way these look for now. And I think I'm committed to sticking with this for a little bit. But I appreciate everyone that, like, sent me messages about my nail journey. It's a big deal.

I'm telling you, like, it was the first thing on my notes last week was talk about Ashley's nails. It's a big deal. I need new ones. I think I'm doing cat eye. I think I'm doing velvet nails. That's a whole other.

It takes longer. Not that much longer. I love my place. But I do love these green nails. I get a lot of compliments. Everybody at Orby Parker yesterday said how nice my nails looked. I got new glasses. I got new eye exam.

He said that my prescription does not change that much. I have a stigmatism, but it isn't changed that much. But you and Tessa pointed out that I am driving now so I should get a stronger prescription. Yeah. I have two updates for you. Okay. The first is about my neighbor. Tessa really undersold this.

Couldn't have undersold it more. I went over last week. Listen, I know I said I'm not going to sleep with them, and I'm probably not. but I will. That guy, dibs so hot. He's so hot. It's great. That's a really undersold.

So I popped over there to be like, hey, I just want to introduce myself. Sometimes my packages will come to your door or whatever. I walked in there and this like six foot two man with no shirt on that was sweating and working out was there. And I was like, what the fuck? He is, and he's like scrambling to find a shirt and apologizing to me for not having a shirt. And I'm like, don't put it on. Don't put it on. He was so hot, so nice.

And he, like, texted me. He was like, let me know if I can do anything to help. And I was like, you could just come drink with me? And he was like, all right. Yeah. And listen, he does have a hot brother that looks almost exactly like him. So I think the move is the brother. Okay.

Is it rather older or younger? Unclear. Okay. I always talked to the current guy. Yeah. Rob and I came over and I spotted him. He lives in like the same house as you almost. Same address, right?

Like, it's really close. So the owners, like, I guess, took this house, put a wall up and it is the same address. Yeah. So like one address is on the street. one's on the avenue, but it's like the same building essentially. It's weird. Yeah, I caught a glimpse. I was like, oh, and then I went to his Instagram. I was like, Jesus fuck. So yeah. We'll see. Someone will fuck him. Someone in this group will fuck him. Me, Ashley or Tessa. Tessa's like he's a little old for me. He's 28. She's like, ew.

So that's my update about that. And then my other update is about the art gallery with Rusty. and they did wear me down. I have bought new stuff from them. They started calling me and texting me every day. You didn't go there, right? I'm going there this week. Okay, to pick up your stuff? Pick up my stuff and there's like this other thing I want to look at.

But he also, it's so unlike me. He was like, Rusty let me know, blow, blah, blah. It's so unlike me to not be like, Rusty should deliver the stuff that I bought. Like, I'll pay you guys more if you just get this guy to deliver. Like, why not be bold? And I'm disappointed in myself that I didn't say like only if Rusty delivers it. When the owner called, he brought Rusty up too. Yes.

And he was like, you talked to Rusty. So you already have the opening to say, can he deliver it? It's a missed opportunity. I'm really disappointed on myself. Do you guys deliver? Does Rusty deliver? Does Rusty deliver? Yeah.

Can Rusty be my delivery driver? I still think I could do it. Yeah. Maybe I'll just see. I'll be like, I don't have time to drive out there. Can Rusty come by? Yeah. He's going to be like, ma'am, he has his own job.

Ma'am, he has a wife. Just you. Okay. So you had a very big moment this week, a really special moment. Let's talk about it. I bought a car. I told you guys I was. The car.

The car, my dream car. I bought a Jaguar F-Pace, six-cylinder, 400 horsepower. If you lost, I don't know anything this one. I don't know. Do you know what those words me? Yes, of course I do. My dad drives an eight-cylinder, Jaguar sedan. So that car has some juice.

And, like, it just has such pickup. And my dad is a big Jaguar Land Rover guy when I was, like, growing up, he always had these, like, old cars. And, like, you know, here's this dumb kid, you're, like, embarrassed. You just want you had parents have, like, a new car. Like, he had this, like, bright orange car. I was like, don't pick me up at school in it. I was like, but now I'm like, that is the dopest car.

But back then, and then I remember he got this old Jaguar and I, for once thought it was cool. And that was, like, the first thing I thought it was cool. Like, you know, you just think your parents are, like, embarrassing. And I just remember thinking it was cool. And then I just think ever since then, you know, this old friend of mine DM'd me and we were friends in middle school. And she was like, I remember you saying in middle school that you wanted a Jaguar and you really did it. And it was really special. And I just want to make my dad proud.

You know, my dad's a car guy. His whole life has been all about cars. That was his business forever. He owned an auto parts supplier. And it's just like, I just wanted a car that he would be like, I can't wait to drive it. I wanted him that he would be proud of me for. And it's what I wanted. And I bought it with my own money.

and my best guy friend Rob, I couldn't have done it without him, couldn't have done it without a man. I can't do anything without Rob. I could have, but like he helped me kind of figure out what I wanted in advance. And then it changed when I test drove the one with the red interior. So I knew I wanted white and I just wasn't thinking red interior. I'm like, that's so loud. And then that's the one we test drove on the lot. I was like, this is it.

This is the car. Like we were going to try to find a different one. I was like, no, no, this is the one I want to buy this today. I want to buy this today. I'm not leaving until this is my. I like the wheels. I like the red. I feel like a rapper. Like, I just really want it. So we took the one off the lot and I went and picked up a couple days later because we were like on tour and I had to get insurance and that's the whole thing. But yeah, I mean, Rob was so wonderful. He knows so much about cars. It was so

nice to have him because my dad couldn't be here or Matt couldn't be here. So I'm just, you know, eternally grateful to him for everything he does and his wife for letting us borrow him all the time. He's helping us build out the studio. And so he literally has like, we're his like other wife. wives slash daughters. Like that's the vibe. We were on a phone call and we like hung up and he's like, so what I'm hearing here is there's a stopgap, there's a bottleneck, blah, blah, blah, and here's ways to address that. And we're like, are you also our business manager?

It's crazy. Yeah, so he helped me and they were great. I got it at Jaguar, Los Angeles. And this was huge for me. You know, I've been wanting to buy a house. I haven't been able to do it. I've never bought my own car. You know, I had my same car since college.

We all know the O3 Xtera, which is still around, is on the farm. There's no trade in value when that's fucking thing. We're going to keep that. That'll be Jay's first car. Can you imagine? They're like, that's not safe. That's not safe. He's like, it's vintage. It was really nice.

And like we went to pick it up Sunday. Tessa dropped me and you off right as soon as we landed. I went to go pick it up. And we pulled up and then through the window like this little glass room at the dealership. I look in and I see the white Jaguar F-Pace with a big red bow on. And I was like, oh my God, that's it. Is that really it? It's also like in its own little room because you just drive it out of there.

So it's like in a box by itself. It's just like so special. Yeah. So it was like really so nice. I just wanted like a nice experience for it. So you don't need a man to buy your dream car ladies. Just follow your dreams. And that's what it is. So I'm driving all the time. Like I'm like, I'll drive, I'll drive. I'll drive. I'm just like, this is going to make me sober because I'm never going to drink and drive it. And so and I want to drive all the time. Like I want to be in the car and pick people up and, you know, Kate and I were going to this thing in Santa Monica tonight. I was like, I'll drive. Like I'm just going to be that bitch. So take advantage. while you can, friends. Of you? Yeah, like, while I'm wanting to drive so much. It is really special.

It's, like, such a crazy thing because, like, New Yorkers, we don't, like, own anything, you know? Like, we don't have these moments that, like, everybody else has and they're, like, early adulthood, like, buy a house, buy a car. Like, it's just, you don't need those things there.

And so it takes a little longer, and it's just, it's funny that, like, I'm in my 30s. I've never, like, really owned anything. And it is really, like, so special to have those moments where you're, like, I did this thing for myself.

because I don't know if in New York you don't really have a lot of those but it's really really nice and exciting yeah so I'm excited I wanted to talk about this thing that I was watching curb your enthusiasm of all things and it like jogged my memory about this like dating topic I wanted to like ask your opinion on

so the episode, it's season nine and he's talking to a friend of his who like called this person that he's dating honey and then she gets like really weird and Larry's like you premature honeyed like it was the premature honey and I had this guy who told me I babed too soon Yeah.

And I just, it made me laugh so hard and just thinking about like, how do you, like, come back from that and how soon is too soon for like pet names. Because I think these people were like on like a third date. So I wanted your like take on like how soon is too soon to like drop a honey or a babe. Um, I, honey is just like married couple in my eyes. Honey. Honey. I use honey.

I don't use it. It's fine. Like whatever. I don't think anyone's ever called me that. I don't think I've ever said, honey. It just, it feels like kind of like your parents. Like, it just feels kind of old-timey to me. But, like, whatever.

Like, love your truth. I don't know. Like, that's just, I had an ex that just, like, started calling me a pet name, like, really early, kind of jokingly. But then it stuck. Like, I'm talking, like, week one. So, yeah, like, sometimes those things happen like that. Like, I remember one ex of mine, I babed him first. But we'd been together for a while.

And he was like, babe, huh? And I was like, shut up. Don't shave. me we are together we've been together for like months on months on months like and so then he just started calling it and that was like our transition into it like it's funny when you do it the first time and like a someone calls you out or like they don't reciprocate it you're like it really is putting yourself out there it really is it's scary the first time you drop it's scary babe well i was like drinking and like i must have said like what time do you want me to come over babe

I was saying it like sarcastic. It was so soon in the relationship. He couldn't have thought that I was serious. But he like, and when I said relationship, I had huge air quotes. Like we had fucked after going to the bar. We'd purposely gone on dates, like three maybe. And then I had said like, babe. And I think he really like took it.

You know, a matter like, she called me, babe, she's in love with me. You know, he didn't like it. He was like really turned off by it. He told me I babed too soon. Yeah. But I meant it as like a joke, but you've got to be careful for the Babe Lane minds. And I think that like if it's a unique. nickname that's like a joke between the two of you, something that's not like babe, baby,

honey. If it's a little unique to the two of you, you can use that sooner because it's funny. Yeah, that's kind of what my experience was. It was just kind of something like pop culturey. And then we just ran with it and used it all the time. But I'm wondering, do people ever tested out via text first? Do you type it before you say it? This is like a real thing. And maybe like there's a transition of like for me, you know, you're calling me Ash first. Like, it's a nickname start and then pet names, right? Like, I don't know. Like, do you guys ever call you Ray or Ray, Ray, right?

Yeah, I get Ray. It feels overly familiar. But do you like it when you're into somebody? Like, a guy that I'm dating or just like that does an ash. I'm like, ooh, like chills at my spine. I love it. Ray, Ray, I get that sometimes. It feels playful and flirty, so I like that.

Babe, to me, like, that word means we're in a relationship. Like, Ray, Ray, Ray, Bay. Like those things feel like playful and flirty. Babe feels like it comes with like a collar. Like around your neck. Like you're in a relationship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can do Bay. I've done that like more playfully, but then it sticks. You know, but babe. Yeah. It means something. Babe and baby means like I feel that I have ownership over you. Baby, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, baby girl. Like, I can't. I mean, some guys can pull it off. Don't get it twisted. But like, I'm, I'm, I'm, I hear, like, baby, I'm like, don't do it, don't do it. And then I had an accident. We both just really, like, loved Dewey and RIPE King.

And he just started calling me all my pet names to Dewey. So all the, like, little things I called Dewey, he just started calling me that. He would use my dog voice. That's funny. But I got to tell you the student of Dewey, so I've got to get this alarm system installed. And I'm speaking like, first, I've never had one. And they were like, what do you want your safe for? to be.

Dewey? The first thing that came to mind was Dewey. That's so fine. I thought it'd be too easy to guess, but I might have used it. Yeah, but Dewey is here. Remember the orange? Dewey lives in California.

Dewey is here. He was in the Soho House with us that night. If you know, you know, he knocked an orange off the bar and then it disappears. He is here. He's in California. He's been here for a minute.

I just thought he popped into your head because he was probably in your, he was probably checking up on you. First word. that came to mind before anything else Dewey came to mind. Somebody else's animal. Also if you're new around here, Dewey is my dad dog.

If you knew around here, I had a situation in this hotel where he was there. Yes. In ghost. Yeah. He was a ghost. It really made me laugh at that. I was like, why is this the first thing? That is so funny. That's your safe word. My safe word. Ozil is a funny safe word. He was the second. I was like

is Azul weird? I picked something else so I feel like it's too easy to guess. I'll tell you what it was later. If you could guess what it was. Okay. But anyway, it was. Anyways, It's premature honey. I just thought it was very funny. Honey, I'm curious of what our listeners.

We should do an Instagram question slide about pet names, like, and weird pet names and funny secret pet names. You know, like it's funny when people have something that is a little more obscure. And then you're around it and you feel like you're seeing them naked.

When you see couples use their like secret weird. It makes my whole body. Wait, what? Bubba? Bubba. Like a little baba? Like you've never heard that? It gives me the ick all over my body.

Well, Baba to me is more like what you call your kid. I feel like my friends might call their little son that, Bubba. No, that's B, B, B, B, B. A. What are you saying? Like, I guess it could be the same. What are you saying? I'm Bubba. Like, it's just, yeah, I've never called anybody that, but, like, I've heard other people do it,

and it gives me, like, full body. Also, do you feel like sometimes, like people like to overuse, babe? It's like Lindsay Hubbard and Carl? Do I think every word out of their... Hey, babe, babe, what's up, babe? Thanks for getting my suitcase, babe. To me, it's the same energy as someone that's like my boyfriend, like someone that you can't, it's giving like my first relationship vibes a little bit

when it's like so much extra. And this isn't everyone's story, but like when I feel like it's an over usage of pet names, it can be a little try hard. It just feels, it feels forced to me and like try hard. Like you're just, you got to let everybody in the room know that you're in a relationship. Hey, babe, what's up, babe? I love you, babe. What's going on?

Listen, I think it's sweet, but like there's a line. I can't describe it. You just know when someone's crossed it. It's just too much. And it's, it is Summer House, Lindsay and Carl. Every single sentence has the word babe in it. And it feels weird. Also, what about when people just always say my husband or my wife?

I'm going to say that. Say Kevin. Say Angela. Like, just say their name. Like, I know who they are. Like, I can't even imagine, like, if Kate said my husband ever instead of J. It's really, really. Or Matt said my wife.

Like, you know, it's like a little dated. It's a little, like, Southern. It's a little patriarchal to me. me or it's a little bit like, or maybe not. Maybe it's just like you're so obsessed with like marriage. I mean, I know a man in particular that does it all the time and it like doesn't bother me when he does it. I think he's like obsessed with his wife and like doesn't think he's like better than anybody because he's married. I mean he just, he says my wife a lot. But like it is outside of him it is sort of odd to me when like I know your partner. I've hung out with them.

You can just say their name to me. Right. Like it's different strangers. Yeah, of course. My wife, my husband. But like, what are we trying to do here? With your close circle. And again, guys, it's just our opinions. If you do this, I don't care. I don't care. But it's just funny. I think about like Kate or Kate, or Kate, send my husband. I'd be like, stop it. It just... It's at the wedding. Just say their name.

I'll spend a hundred times with them. Sometimes it just feels like somebody's trying to put you in your place to let you know that, like, they're a little bit better than you. They're on a different level. My fiancé. My fiance. I get it. If you just newly got engaged, you can't say it enough. And I respect it. Actually, when I was fiancade for those, like,

four months I was fiance. It was hard for me to say it. It was just, it feels so, like, weird coming out of your mouth. Actually, he's my fiance. It's like, it's not your boyfriend anymore. I need people to know that like it's a different level, but like to correct people felt really weird. And they were like your boyfriend. Actually, it's my fiance. There's no way to say it without like a well actually tone to it. But that's what it is. Okay. One more thing. You sent me this meme and I do feel like it's on the same flight while I was watching that episode. Yeah. It just spoke to my soul. And I almost feel like it's a little relevant to today with our episode with Dr. Orna.

This has lived rent-free since Sunday at 9.52 a.m. when you sent it to me. It's just a meme. I don't know if this is an original, but her name is I am Shri underscore. I don't know. But the meme is, it was originally a tweet, I guess, and was on this meme page. Being in a relationship is solving problems together. Problems you wouldn't have if you were single. Hit you the chest. Which, listen, also, clearly neither of us are in a relationship with Rob. He's married. But he makes our life a lot easier.

Ultimate Solver. So if, best thing about him, someone like him actually makes your life easier instead of harder. Because I say that sometimes. I'm like, I don't want to carry someone else's shit. I don't want to deal with someone else's problems. Like, I got my own shit going on. I understand that's what a relationship is about. You know, you help each other through life.

I mean, that's what we do. I'm happy to help you with your problems and vice versa. So it's not that. You know what I mean? That's what relationships are about. My problems are not, it's not the same thing as romantic relationship. It's like,

the problem here is that like there's a mess everywhere and you've created the mess. And now I have to solve with you who's going to clean the mess up. Like that to me is like that type of thing. Like I don't find that with you. Like you know, business problems we solve them together.

But like you don't create problems in my life. Right. Like a romantic partner would. Right. Right. Or like all of a sudden you have all this stress and anxiety surrounding like a what are we situation? A relationship. Like what's going on or my partner this, my partner that?

And it's like, man, what if that person wasn't around? Stress free, unbothered. No problem. I sleep right of night. But again, I can't stress it enough. Like the right partner shouldn't make you feel like that. But it is so funny when you frame it in that way where you're like, we're solving all these problems. We're in couples therapy.

We're doing this. We're working through all of our shit together. And it's like, but that's why you have them. So you really do need to balance, like, if it's worth it. Like, we're in couples therapy to fix the problems that you've created with me. I wouldn't have any of these problems if you weren't around. That's why we're in therapy. I'm not doing this for fun.

I'm here because you traumatized me by cheating on me. And now we have to just, like, fix all these problems together. I know. It is really funny. But it is. It's just also like life. I don't know. Like the shit that I have to deal with with this dog, it's just like today, I'd like, book is grooming. I have to clean up his hair all the time. I have to take him on walks.

I have to, you know, do all this stuff. It's like worth it. He doesn't, because of what he provides to me, like you just have to weigh it. But I just love that meme. Being in a relationship is solving problems together. Problems you wouldn't have. Well, I mean, I think that like you said it without saying it, which is that like, hopefully this.

trainoff is that the proms they bring in, they also bring enough good stuff. Like, you know, companionship and, you know, having an actual partner in life and, you know, the sex, but building stuff. You hire a task for that. Well, but I'm like, if you're in-house, you know, like much better than outsourcing. So if I can have a guy that can do all the stuff, I'd be outsourcing a task grab it. He's in-house. You're trying to save money.

Well, it's also easy, too. I don't have to schedule it. I don't have to go through an app. I don't have to talk to anybody. I hate talking to people. Right, right. Okay, let's get into it with our guests. Yes.

All right, guys. We are really excited for today's guest. It really has been a long time coming. She is a clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst practicing in New York City. She is on the faculty at NYU Postdoctoral Institute for Psychoanalysis. And she is about to launch the fourth season of her acclaimed docu-series couples therapy on showtime. We are so excited to finally welcome her on the show. please welcome Dr. Orna Koralnik.

Thank you for inviting me. Thanks for joining us. We had just the best pre-interview call. We're so excited. You speak to so many different couples about so many different topics on your show. And your advice is so fantastic. And Ashley and I really loved listening to the show. So we're just excited to pick a topic and dive in with you today.

How do the fourth season go? Any new type of stuff you've never seen before? Honestly, every new couple has like their own very unique personality and unique thing that they bring. I mean, you're going to be spending time with an amazing set of characters. I mean, the people that we worked with this season have been just wonderful to work with, like, deep psychologically minded, different backgrounds, different issues. You know, there's a couple that come from like a Mormon background.

There's a couple that come from like Palestinian-Libonese background, very good mix of characters. Deep thinkers, they really put themselves on the line. In terms of issues, it's interesting when we were thinking about the season as a whole. One of the questions that came up is, is there more of a question around monogamy this season? I'm not sure if I would characterize the season that way, but it is one of the themes if I had to pull a theme. Maybe I would put it more like, how does the break out of monogamy?

What function does it serve for each couple? Okay. So I have a question for you. We love this show, obviously, and it's so interesting. We were just doing this other podcast, and we were talking to him about the show because he was talking about a very,

what sounded like not great couples therapy experience where you just really felt like the therapist was against him and just blaming him for everything and we're like, that's not really how it should feel. You should watch the show if you really want a kind of roadmap of how it should feel. But I'm curious if you had any hesitation doing this show. Was there any part of you that was like,

I don't want to put this on TV or a part of you that was like if I can help other couples dealing with the same things that they're going to see on the show, I'm all for it? What was just your thoughts about it? Meaning earlier on when we just started. Yeah, before, yeah, yeah. Did I have hesitation? Absolutely.

I had terror. Yeah, I was a hesitation of many sorts. I mean, first of all, both the directors and producers and I weren't sure it's going to work. First hesitation, meaning will the therapy really unfold the way therapy unfolds when there are cameras when we know it's documented. I didn't know that I could even function in front of a camera. I mean, am I going to get specialized? Am I going to feel self-conscious? And I got to lose my capacity to think like an analyst. I had no idea what it's going to be. I mean, I'm not like a show business person. I'm a very private person, typically. We didn't know if the couples are going to

be able to go through a real therapeutic process, knowing that there are other people kind of witnessing at this while we're doing the work and later. And then I didn't know, am I going to be doing good work? Is it going to be good work that I'm going to be putting out there? Am I going to be embarrassed by what I've done or more? I was mortifying. I mean, people told me you could ruin your career by doing this. And then, of course, there are all these issues around losing the whole frame of confidentiality. I mean, to be when I was, when I was, work with people, there's like a very, very strict firewall of confidentiality. Like, I never, ever know.

And suddenly it's like just like completely removed. It's like, whoa, this is like public information. How's it going to work? Is that ethical? Is this going to be okay for the clients? What are they consenting to? Anyway, there were a very long list of hesitations and fears and uncertainties. Yeah. It's interesting you say that because my viewpoint going to the show,

watching it was like, are people really going to go there? Are people going to be as honest and open? Really, what you saw in the first season and every season there was, there's so many different themes of what couples go through in terms of narcissism and cheating and monogamy and so many different themes. People really went there. You know, I was surprised too. But it opened your eyes up to every couple just has a very unique and different set of situations and stories. And you can see yourself represented in so many of these storylines. Yeah. It's interesting. That was like, I asked you that and it's like, duh, the answer because it's like the number one thing is confidentiality. And it's like, let's put this on TV. Let's just

make this the least confidential it could be. So thanks for sharing your feelings surrounding it. And we can't wait for the next season. Yeah. So today we wanted to talk to you about conflict in a relationship and a romantic relationship and fighting and styles of fighting. And you said this thing to me. we spoke before the interview and you said, we were talking about how to fight and what is a fight and who gets to say. And when you said who gets to say, it was like a real like mind explosion for me because I think we've all been in these fights where like one person is yelling and the other person's like,

why are you fighting with me? And the other person is like, I'm not fighting with you. It's a discussion. And even in that moment, it's like, why does one person get to decide that it's a fight when I didn't think it was a fight?

And when we pulled our listeners also and said, what are you looking for in this type of conversation? So many things came up in terms of going. to sleep angry, having so much anger and not being able to control it or being on the other end of the spectrum, being passive aggressive. So it really opened my eyes up when you just said, like, who gets to say? Because there's so many different styles of this conflict with your partner. I agree. Yeah. So fighting, disagreeing, arguing. I mean, it's like, I mean, it's everything. It's everything in the sense that, I mean, if you want to like totally zoom out, difference,

is where growth happens. If there's no difference, there's no development. You know, if a baby has everything they need, they will not develop a thought. If everything is handed to them, they're not going to move. So difference and bridging differences is where the action is.

It's where growth is. It's where desire comes into play. It's everything. So people get really scared of difference and really scared of, I'm not even going to call it fighting. I'm just going to call it difference for this moment. And they get paralyzed by, oh, my God, if we are different, if we think differently about two different things, if we need different things, it feels very dangerous and a lot at risk. and it is partially, I mean, that's in our little mini pre-conversation when I was talking about, like, who gets to decide what's a fight and what's not.

It is partially determined by culture and by the family you came from, where for some people, difference is just like a way of living. I mean, there's always like difference. And I mean, some people, you probably all know people that, the moment you say something, they immediately say the opposite, just as a way of having a conversation. It's always devil's advocate, and it's just like a playful way of living.

While for other people, those kind of differences can be like really alarming and grating and feel very bad and scary. So people differ in what they think of as conflict. They differ in terms of how much different, and disagreement they can tolerate before they feel like something very bad is happening. So one of the things that couples have to do is to kind of align on what they consider like a conversation, what they consider an argument, what they consider a fight, and what they

consider something really destructive. And sometimes it has to do with the actual content of what is being said. Sometimes it has to do with the tone of voice. Doesn't you even matter what the content is, but if the tone is aggressive or too stubborn or too emotional in one way or another, if someone cries, it can mean a lot of things to different people. And they have to kind of align on what's a tolerable range of conversation for the couple, which is actually a lot of what I do when I work. Just figure out what's a workable range. and what feels like it's just too much. Do you feel like a lot of people adopt their parents' style of arguing and fighting?

I think people, either they get primed to a certain culture of conversation that mimics their parents, or they are phobic of repeating what they had at home. And like everything that reminds them of their parents, even in the smallest ways, they get, you know, paralyzed and resistant. and so it's kind of either or, but they're always in some relationship to how they grew up, yes. Yeah.

So when you have a couple come in that cannot agree on what's a fight, you know, you have someone that's really, any change in tone, any raising of a voice is really alarming, like you said. And then there's somebody that's like, I have no idea what you're talking about.

We're having a conversation. And you do have one person, you're screaming at me. And the other person's like, I'm literally not. Where do you even begin to find that middle ground? I think what I do in those cases, I first of all try to parse out what has to do with the content that they're trying to negotiate and what has to do with, let's say, you know, manners of speaking. And sometimes it really is just manners of speaking and then teaching each one of the couple to understand that the other person is hearing them differently from how they mean it, which is not easy.

takes people time to really get out of their own perspective and kind of listen to what's going on through the other person's shoes. And it might be understanding the other person's history. Let's say someone had a very abusive parent. The moment they hear any kind of increased feeling in their partner, they're already cowering the way they cowered as a child. So helping people understand that that might be going on, that the way the partner is listening to them is not only an indication of how they're speaking, but it might have something to do with their partner's history. It really is so true that like you just have no idea how you sound

and how you're being digested by other people. And I've had that romantic relationships. Ashley and I've had that I've said a thing and she digested in a way that like I had no idea I sounded like that and vice versa. And it is hard to say to somebody like you don't hear yourself because the other person can say back to you like, well, you didn't hear me correctly. You know, like I feel like your defense,

there's a defense to that as well. And then it's hard to get out of that cycle. And then there's the question of what about the content that the two people are talking about is making it so hard. Right. Because sometimes people, they focus on the wrapping of the communication, but really what's going on is they're using that as an excuse to not talk about what's really going on. So sometimes, you know, people can say like, why are yelling at me?

But it's not about the yelling. It's like, I don't really want to hear what you're saying. That thing you're saying, I don't want it. And that's the teasing out what's what. So do you tell people to address the tone first or to address the content first? Like, where do we start? I don't have a rule book of like how to go about it. But I listen to both and I try to understand like what's what here.

Is it about the way the conversation is wrapped? Or are there things that are different? to say to each other or a negotiation that's going to be a really difficult negotiation. And then the tone is like a red herring. Okay. I'm really curious. And this isn't a joke. Like, you're lucky that you are on the show and the cameras follow these couples home and sort of film them having arguments. And I remember as a child, there was a lot of screaming in my house. Just my mom just absolutely eviscerates you. And I used to say to her like the amount of screaming never ends in this house. And she used to tell me that that was completely untrue. And I used

always think, like, if we could just put a camera in this house and I could bring it to a therapist, I would feel validated because somebody would be like, this is photographic evidence that you were doing this. So I'm wondering, like, do you ever talk couples outside of your show to film their arguments? Is that something that, like, people ever do? Because, like, I do see a world in in which somebody is like, you do this all the time? The other person's like, no, I don't. And then you're, you're like, run the tape. Right. It's like, do you find that that's like a therapeutic tool? As long as everybody knows they're being filmed. Like, is that. is that something you've ever told people to do?

No, I've never asked people to do that. First of all, that's upsetting what you're describing, and that's really hard when you're in some kind of reality. And the person who's like inflicting this suffering on you is like denying what's going on. That's rough. Yes, thank you. Yeah, that really sucks. But it happens in romantic relationships, I think, too.

Yeah, of course. I mean, it happens politically, right? Aren't we living in like two very different realities? And like, I mean, people have to find, they have to be able to trust their own experience. It's not, you know, it's the camera, mom agreeing or not agreeing that that's what happened. That's not where the real growth is. You have to learn to trust your own experience. And then you also sometimes have to learn.

to entertain the idea that there are multiple ways to interpret the same event. Meaning you might feel like, I mean, I know it from my own kids. Like one of my kids might feel like I'm really like being very overbearing with them and thick. But I know what I'm doing. They got to get this thing done or they, you know, whatever. When they're little, they just got to put your shoes on. And there's no way to get out of the house without that. it's like really terrible what's going on.

They're being like controlled. And both realities are true. So it's, you know, this multiple reality thing and multiple perspectives thing is like it's everywhere. It's ubiquitous. We've got to figure out ways to live with it. And you can't just record the other person and the truth is going to be out there. The truth is inside.

So how do you marry those two or is it just coming to the conclusion that I experience this completely differently because I'm sure you see this every day is a couple that's like, that's not what happened. It's always like, yes, it is. And someone's not plain, like, make believe. But yeah. I see it in my office. Two people are talking.

I'm right there. I see it. And each one of them has a completely different experience of what just happened in my office. And I understand why they each have that experience. Experience is not just out there in reality. it's not like a scientific fact. Experience has to do with how a person experiences it, which depends on so many things.

And what they choose to attend to and ignore in what the other person is saying, you know, if you're primed, if you're really looking for a fight, you're going to look for like the one word that your partner said that is really, ah, gotcha. And if you're looking for a way to connect,

you're going to ignore all those like triggers and you're going to find the heart in what your partner is saying. So cameras can't do that. It's an orientation. Sure. And ultimately, at the end of the day, you know, your experience is your reality. And so it doesn't matter if somebody else watches this TV show of you and your partner. If you feel invalidated and you feel like somebody is coming at you and putting you down,

that doesn't really matter. That is your experience. And I like what you said about being able to trust your experience and really having the confidence to say to somebody, like maybe you don't agree with me, but that is how I experienced this. And if you love me, you will care that I experienced it like that. And maybe I can even tell you what in my history, what in my mood made me experience it that way. Okay. It doesn't mean it's all of it. It just means that's part of what's going on. Do you feel like it's normal to never fight? When I say normal, like, is that bad to never fight? I think it's a little suspicious. Okay. I do too. I just,

Somebody asked us that in an Instagram story slide, and I was really surprised by it because I can't relate. But I mean, I think that there are, I don't know. Fighting, it could be, that could be perceived as just as yelling and screaming. And I think some people are really good at managing conflict in a mature, rational manner. It's got to be totally out of the ordinary to never have had a difference in opinion or conflict. But I could see where there's the world with two people that just are really good at, hearing the other person and coming to a resolution in a rational way, but two people who have stable, secure attachments, they've done a lot of work and they're able to navigate through the

world without like raising their voice. I agree. Totally agree. Yeah. I like the way you defined it, that there might be a difference that they need to kind of work through, but it doesn't have to become, you know, either a fight or something like raising voices or an impact. But working through differences, whether it's different interests in the same moment, like one person needs this, another person needs that, or just a difference in perspective. I mean, I think that's kind of built into human relationships. I would hope so. I would hope that you don't have a couple that's like, we've never disagreed.

We, what's happening here? You share a brain. That doesn't sound sexy for one. I don't know what the intimacy is like. if you think about every single thing in the world the exact same way. But I would wonder if somebody was being like tremendously passive, aggressive and just choosing not to argue and have fights. I am more prone to sort of like stamping it down.

I am just a pretty easygoing person in general. Nobody that's dated me would ever say that I yell and scream and say things I can't take back. That's just not my personality in any way. But I think you do get into the cycle of some people who are just so terrified of fighting that it becomes just like, yeah, we never fight. It's like, well, that's not good. You should be able to voice some things that you feel.

But being passive aggressive, I mean, you can fight in ways that are not very vocal. I mean, being passive, you can still fight. Like, always forget to load the dishwasher. That's a pretty serious fight. Mm-hmm. Quiet. Quiet. Yeah, exactly.

True, true. I do want to talk about fighting about the same thing over and over again, but I just, I was wondering about your thoughts on going to bed angry also. And, you know, everybody has these different styles, being cast progressive yelling and screaming. Some people refuse to address it. Do you think going to bed angry is unhealthy or are there sometimes when it's healthy? Yeah, you just, that's every couple's cliche marriage advice. Never go to bed angry. All right. I don't know. We want to hear what you have to say about it. Provocative little question. What do I really think about that? I think there's some. wisdom to the general idea don't go to bed angry. They don't mean it concretely because sometimes people need time to be able to process things and concretely they may need to go to bed angry one night, two night, seven nights before they can address something. But if we don't take it too concretely, I think the idea is don't just let it simmer,

or try to resolve the issue you're struggling with. You might need to take some time, but try to resolve it. Don't just let it sit. Well, you said this thing about washing dishes, and we did want to get into it. And in terms of breaking the cycle about fighting about the same thing over and over and over again, and to me it sort of falls into two buckets.

Either you're fighting about the same specific act like somebody cheated or something more is pervasive, the right word, that it's just like, you never help me around the house. You don't help me with the kids. I work just as much as you, and you won't do the dishes. And people get into this cycle of fighting about the same thing over and over and over again. And I find it really hard to break the cycle personally in romantic relationships.

So we'd love to just talk about what happens when a couple can't break the cycle of just, we're having the same fight every single day. Yeah. I mean, that's really the bread and butter of my work, of couples' work. I mean, is these kind of repeat patterns that couples get stuck in. I mean, that's when they bring in a therapist. And it's always interesting those repeat fights. I mean, from my perspective, it's like a riddle.

Like, why would a couple do the same thing over and over? If they know it's going to get them into the same fight or the same trouble, why would they do the same thing over and over? Like, what's in it for each of them? And that could be many things. It could be that they really disagree. about something fundamental. I don't know.

We can like, you know, fake talk about the dishes. I mean, I don't really think it's about the dishes. But let's say it was about the dishes. Let's say they really disagree about who should be doing what. Right. I mean, you might say, look, I'm doing the child care or I'm doing or I'm bringing home the money. And I expect you to do that piece of it. And that's my stance.

So you keep fighting me about this, but that is my stance. So there might be that there's a real disagreement there about whatever they're fighting. But then they might be really through the fight about, you know, I had a, we had a couple on the show. I mean, sadly, they didn't make it yet into the edits, but they had a repeat fight about manners in a restaurant. How should you eat in a restaurant? repeat fight for many years, the same fight. And you'd think, okay, that should be easy to solve, right? And then finally we got all the way down to it was a way for them to negotiate class differences between them.

Because, you know, manners around eating have a lot to do with class. And who's right, who's wrong? If you ask one person to accommodate you, does that mean like, okay, middle class, Trump's working class? what are you agreeing to when you're resolving the fight? What are you really giving? So it's a riddle. These kind of repeat fights are often about something else. Or there could be repeat fights that are really kind of a proxy to something else. Let's say someone is like unhappy with what's going on sexually, but they don't know how to talk about it. So they take the fight elsewhere and they kind of have this bizarre repeat. beat fight over there when it's really not about that. It's a way that they're trying to resolve something else that they don't know how to talk about. We just did a whole manners episode, so I've got to know what the fight was about because if you're talking with your mouthful the whole night, that's not a class thing. But I find that interesting because what two weeks ago,

we did a whole manners episode. And yeah, so I'm wondering how like what level of it that was. But you didn't address class. Well, so our take was like, of course there's things that are tied into class. Salad fork, whatever, you know, but then there's just things that like class don't come into with just basic politeness, how to hold a utensil. Politeness, treating a server in a certain way. I guess there is a spectrum, but can you share with us or no? I'm just out of curiosity. Like, what would boil down to class when it comes to manners? I think manners are completely an expression of class. Okay. I can't be one thing that we do manners-wise that is not class related.

You know, if you sit in a Bedouin tent and you don't burp after dinner, you're rude. Okay. Well, culturally too. Yeah. If you're like in an Asian and certain Asian societies, if you don't slurp your soup, you're rude. Well, I guess that's cultural too then. Yeah. And we talked about that too.

Like cultural differences that are less than like just because you didn't grow up with money doesn't mean you don't know how to. everybody's been told don't talk with your mouthful, right? But this person in that couple that I was talking about with class, he knew. He knew how to eat. But with his partner, he didn't want to accommodate that style of eating because he was like, hey, I'm trying to remain true to the way my family was. Okay.

I don't want to just act as if I'm of a different class. There's something meaningful to me about. people. Licking the plate. Just licking the plate. Okay. All right. I can definitely see a world in which somebody feels like their partner already thinks that they're of a different socioeconomic level as them and then really internalizes any type of comments about the way that they eat and their manners in a restaurant. I can like really see it being like a huge like put down. And I've dated somebody like that who probably already thought that I thought I was a little bit better than him. And so any comment about the way he lived his life was taken with such unbelievable.

Like, he was so mad. He was so hurt. He was so insulted when I was just like, maybe don't wear a t-shirt to meet my dad. Maybe we don't wear a comic book t-shirt to meet my dad. It doesn't mean I think you're poor and you can't afford another step. For me, it just was a politeness thing. I think he saw it as me looking down on him as a person and where he came from. So I can definitely see that like somebody would take it as like a shot.

But I'm like, we've dated. I'm going to know if you lick your plate clean if we're in a long term relationship. But anyway, we don't do well in manners. I just think it's funny because we just discussed this a couple weeks ago. I'm just, I'm really like this stuff about like you never help me around the house. It like really sticks with me. And I don't. I'm curious how you negotiate that.

Because I do think one partner always and it's usually the woman feels like I work just as much as you and I come home and I'm responsible for everything around the house. I'm responsible for the kids. I'm the primary caregiver. So how do you even begin negotiating that type of fight? It's a tough one and it's especially at the stage where people have young kids, it's inevitable that there's going to be difficulties around that. It's inevitable, especially in like our society where, you know, the whole burden is on the family. There's no real welfare support for families. It's like all on the parents. And it's inevitable for a variety of reasons. Of course, there's like, I mean, if it's like a straight couple, but not even a straight couple, there's like

gender politics. Like there's kind of a division of labor that is expected, like the one that takes the maternal function versus the paternal function and the kind of distribution of labor power dynamics that go with that and the unfairness of that. But then there's the fact that when there's too much to do and there's always too much to do when they're kids. To some degree, you can only see your own nose. You can only see what you're doing and you're always doing too much. It's always some kind of excess and it's hard to see what the other person is doing. So there's always some feeling that you're doing more than the other because that's all you see. It's kind of baked in. So what I do, it depends.

on the couple. With some couples, I really have them concretely write out what they each do. So the other person knows, not for the purpose of, you know, some compare and despair. Like I do more than you see proof, but for the purpose of really appreciating what the other person is going through and knowing, just knowing, not for like comparing. Because how do you weigh tartar and what's, I mean, I mean, for some people, like, sitting on the floor and playing with the baby is, like, a lot harder than, like, doing five rounds of laundry. It's, it's subjective. But just to know, to really keep in mind that you're not the only person living, breathing, working, suffering, but that another person is out there doing something to that already sometimes just changes the dynamic.

And then bartering, like, okay, what's easier for you? What would be better for you? If we just distributed the work differently, what would be easier for you? Like, let's see if we can do things where each person is doing the thing that is not the hardest for them. Is there a way to give each other breaks? Meaning to try to get out of the lockdown paradigm of like, who's doing more? Other ways to think about the same thing. I like that you also said it's subjective.

like this thing that doesn't really take a lot out of you is really draining to me or exhausting, where this other thing may be the opposite for you. I'd love to talk about just a couple other examples. I know you spoke with Rain about how you like to think in terms of that as opposed to these like broad topics. What about a couple that is there was infidelity at one point on one end and they want to make it work, but they can't get past that and it just keeps coming up and keeps coming up. And let's even boil it down to just one instance, not an affair, you know, just like.

It's like a one-night stand. Yeah, sure. And the Hartner just can't get past it. We have a couple like that on the season that's dropping now. Again, this can take on so many meanings. It's so depends on the couple and sort of what they're coming into the relationship with, what their ideal is. You know, there are plenty of couples that, you know,

they're not even like that invested in monogamy nowadays. So it's like not a big deal. and other people where it shatters some kind of very intense ideal of trust and specialness, and it really kind of lacerates the person to their core. It's very different for people. And I think the first thing to do is to really understand that context. What does cheating, monogamy, specialness, what does that kind of loyalty mean to each person, like how to interpret the act.

And then you often get, when you really start exploring things, you often get to all kinds of surprising meanings that you don't expect. Like a person can feel like terribly betrayed by the event and they can't get over it because it really reminds them of like a sibling rivalry they had like 20 years ago. And there's something about the scene that kind of replays, kind of an old childhood scene with a sibling. And that's really what it's about. And that is for them to do kind of work on that. For some people, it might really have to do with like trust issue really

with that particular partner that it's not really necessarily about cheating, but it's about trust in general, one who's like not completely honest or honest in a different way. So, you know, it can be like a clue to something else. Okay. In an instance like this where somebody like Ashley said just cheated one time. But, you know, the deal was monogamy and you broke the deal. And I think on the surface, people are in therapy to work on things. And of course, they're there because they want to get over it.

They want to move past it. But have you ever had to say to somebody or would you ever say to somebody like it's time to make a decision that you are going to get over this or you need to split up? And I know you don't tell people split up. But like maybe we're still. talking about this a year and a half after it happened, is there a point at which you do have to say to somebody like, you need to make a decision today that you want to be with this person and you are going to forgive them or you have to make a decision that you will never forgive this and that

the trust is broken forever and go? I wouldn't say it exactly in those terms, but to some degree, yes, I do ask people, when people are dug in in a place of like refusing to move on, I ask them, What do you need? I need you to think really deep and hard. What do you need from your partner that you can imagine will allow you to move on? And if they cannot, if they really cannot, then it's not because their partner is just really like, well, they're actually lying all over the place. But let's say it's a situation where the partner is like doing their share of the work, then I need to ask the person, what is the big risk of forgiveness? like what I mean forgiving is as a risk and what's the issue there like why hold on to a grievance like what satisfaction are you getting out of a grievance I love to use of specialness you know and I'm sure that's wrapped up in ego too like there's got to be this thing of your like because I just

can't get over it because you made me feel less special like that was the thing that I needed the most in the world from my partner and you broke it and But yeah, at some point, move past it or end the relationship. Yeah. And what is this like, if you really, really hung up on the idea of being special, like, what's going on there? I mean, it's great to be special some of the time, but none of us are special all the time. Like, we share the world with other people. So what's going on there?

Well, is it also wrapped up and just like, I'm afraid to forgive you and move on from this because you might do it again. and then I'm going to feel really stupid having done that because, like, I knew better and I'm smarter than this, and you've already fooled me once. And I feel like it is a little frightening to decide that we are going to forgive somebody and maybe they do it again. But I mean, at some point, that is just life and vulnerability. You have to get over it. Yeah, you're talking about like not forgiving as some as if that could control the other person. If you don't offer for the other person, boy, is that hard work?

Yeah. Okay. So another example and something that, you know, Raina being in our 30s, like 30s are seeing even more with our friends, people in our age group with women and wanting children and usually a male partner that isn't sure, you know, like we'd preferably be a hard no so that you could make a decision. We just keep seeing this woman, for example, that really wants children and the clock is ticking quite literally. And the man is unsure. And for whatever, reasons again, we know every situation is different and every couple is different. It's hard for you to give completely overarching advice. But if there's anything to provide here with people that are really running into this and just a constant partner that is just like, I don't know, I'm not ready

now, but I might. And this woman's freaking out. Yeah, it's a tough one. I'm familiar with that. I don't have like a baked response to that. But I can tell you how I think with people about it. There are all sorts of ways to have kids nowadays, right? It doesn't have to be in the context of like a heteronormative, got to have it this way or that way. There are plenty of ways to have kids. And then between a couple, again, it's a question of what is it about?

Right? This kind of struggle or difference, what is it about? it about something else between them? Is there some pattern there where decisions get made always in a certain way? Meaning, does the question of the baby replicate another way that this couple manages difference between them? I mean, for, let's say it's between a woman and her husband or boyfriend, is there something that the boyfriend is replicating? Are they always kind of on the verge of like, no, to other things. Moving in together.

Right. Moving in together, moving, taking a new job. Is there some way that this person is just like resistant to change or has a way of framing things so that there's always someone pushing them from the outside? Like, meaning is it more than about the baby? Is there more to this dynamic that they need to sort out? sometimes one person needs to be the leader, needs to push the couple, okay, we're going to do it.

Just trust me, we're going to do it on faith. We're going to have a baby. We're going to move to a different place. We're going to leave a job. Depends. Yeah, we've seen a lot and we've seen, you know, a woman that is like, let's just do it. I'll take care of it.

You know, I'm happy to enter into this decision together, knowing that I'm willing to carry more of the weight. But that's some people's nightmare. You know, you want to have a 50-50 child racing. You know, it's tough. So. Yeah, but if you're with a partner that doesn't want that, then. Right.

I just think it's tough all the way around because you're like, it's interesting to kind of concede on what you wanted. You wanted a 50-50 partnership. And then you want a child so badly that you're like, I'll just do it all, just fine. You just kind of, you just like impregate me. And then we'll figure. it out and then you get into a point where you are doing so much, it's hard to handle,

you're resentful. And then the guy's like, but this is what you told me. It's really tricky and we just keep seeing this. So we keep seeing like an unsure man and the relationships end. But that's in a way that's a variant on this issue of difference because I've also seen it the other way around where the couple gets into a relationship where the male agreed to to kind of be in a way kind of a donor, like a familiar donor. But then once the baby's there and life evolves, they want like more and more and more. They want like 50-50 participation. And the mom's like, I didn't want you here.

She's like, how do you get for? I mean, life is that. I mean, things change and how you feel about things change. And how do you negotiate difference? like really respecting the other person's otherness and taking care of yourself and not imposing yourself on another person, but really finding a way to negotiate difference. It is really interesting. A years ago, a friend of mine told me that she was going to couples therapy because she wanted

to move in, get married. He did not want to do those things at that point. And I remember she was going to therapy and she said, the therapist said that if he has to qualify why he doesn't want to do these things, then I have to qualify why it's so important to me to do them. And I was so mad in that moment. And I was like, who the fuck is she to say that to you? But over the years, I have really marinated on that.

And it just my thoughts on it have changed a little bit. And I do think that everybody should be able to put it out on the table of like, well, this is why I want to do these things. This is why I don't want to have kids. But also, if you really do want to have kids, you should have to, just because that's the norm doesn't mean that that's what we have to do. And I think that everybody has like a dog in this fight. Yeah.

Do you ever, I know it's hard for you to tell people exactly what to do, but we've seen women come up with a deadline of if you can't give me an answer on this, I need to leave this relationship because having a family is so important to me. Do you find that to be something that you endorse or see people do? And I'm not saying like, it's tomorrow. It's, you know, I'm going to give you some time. But at some point, you know, I'm whatever 37, 38, I have to move on. I do. Yeah, if that's important to a woman and her partner doesn't want to do that and doesn't want to be involved, that's totally legitimate. Yeah.

Okay. Well, we really wanted to talk about anger and the style of fighting that really is a lot of yelling, screaming, maybe even saying things that you don't mean and you can't. Or maybe you do mean them, but you can never take them back. So if you are somebody who is prone to that, we kind of want to talk about, you know, what is the right partner for you? and how can you exist in these relationships? I mean, for me, if I dated somebody like that that would last five minutes, I will never deal with something like that.

But if you're somebody that's just like, I just find myself screaming and swearing and I can't stop, how does that manifest in a relationship? How can we find ways of controlling that? Do we ever find ways of controlling it? If you're like, that's just how I fight, that's how I fight, that's how it's going to be. I mean, even though I want to respect the fact that people are different

and they have different styles of communication and not every emotional communication is necessarily like an offense or a bad thing. Having said all that, I do, first of all, think that there is only a certain range within which a real conversation can happen. And if you go beyond that range, it's not a conversation. It's not even a fight. It's just, you know, offloading or dumping or in severe cases, just, just, you know, offloading. abuse. So I think if you're entering that zone where it's not a constructive conversation where two people can actually hear something about what the other person is saying

and consider it, I don't think it's productive. And I think just saying that's how I am is not enough. Then you've got to do some work on yourself because you want to bring yourself into the zone where there's an actual exchange. And an exchange means that whatever you're saying, the other person can hear and process. And when they're talking to you, you can hear and process so that there can be a real back and forth. If it's just kind of a dumping, okay, once in a while, fine.

But that's not a conversation. It's not even a fight. It's something else. I think also some people, are just quick to anger and react quickly. And I've worked on that throughout the years. It used to be more me, but I feel it in my body, like right away in my gut. And I've learned how to manage it. And sometimes it's just time. It's just 10 minutes. It's just don't react now, take a walk, breathe in and out, little things like that. I mean, do you offer tools to people who just

are easily reactive is the word? But I'm a rational person I can communicate. It's just, it's that immediate reaction and in that moment you almost feel out of body. Yeah. It's really good that you're locating it in the body because that's where the intervention is. It's physiological, like anger, all feelings. It's a physiological experience. And when people are quick to kind of spike, the best way to deal with that is to first of all know how to listen into cues in the body and to address it.

at the level of the body. So yeah, breathe, walk, kind of on a physiological level, bring yourself down to that range of emotion where you can still be in communication. I think it's also just like training. You just don't send the text. And it's hard because you really feel not yourself.

It's like I keep doing this too where over the years it's like, you know you're going to regret this later. So just throw the phone across the room, whatever it takes. even five minutes, just that immediate, you get so fired up even if you're fighting with somebody in the internet or whatever it is. So it's a practice for me is I know I won't feel this in even five minutes.

So if I can just not do the thing right now, I can wrap my head around it in a rational way. You said it better than me. I'm not to work on it. It's a journey. I feel like as the other partner, I like not her other partner. partner, but I can't be spoken to like that. It does take me back to childhood. The amount of screaming, feeling like somebody has just eviscerated you. And I had this fight with a partner, even like two years ago where he like really like just demolished me and my character. And I bring it up kind of a lot.

And he even said to me like, kind of recent, like you got to stop bringing this up. And I was like, I don't think you understand like how traumatic it was for me, like that moment. So for me, like, I just have to say to people like I just, if you're going to be like that, I just, I can't be around it. So as the other partner, I think it's perfectly fine to just draw the boundary. and be like when you're a less condescending way, but when you're done talking like this, that's when we can reconvene. Because I just, I can't be around it.

It really is very bad for me. That seems very legitimate. I mean, unless you really block any communication. Yeah, I wouldn't do that. But, you know, I think it's perfectly fair to say, like, this isn't go anywhere. And if you're at this volume level and you're just chucking grenades at me, I just can't be here, you know?

I think what helps in those moments is to say to the person, I really want to hear what you have to say, but you got to figure out a way to calm down. There's like a meme that says like never in the history of calming down, telling a person to calm down, calm them down. Same with like when you're ready to stop being like that. But if you say to the person, I really want to hear what you have to say, that's what you're really saying. Just figure out a way to organize yourself so I can hear it.

Or is there a world in which you put it back on yourself? Like, I really want to hear what you have to say, but I'm unable to respond what I'm being spoken to in this manner and that we're not going to get anywhere. This is too upsetting for me when you're yelling. I want to hear what you have to say. Can you find a way to speak to me so I can hear it? Yep. I think that's a great way to frame it.

Like, I am receptive to this. I'm not close off, but screaming is not it. Yeah. Scream when they feel like the other. person is not listening. Right. You got to figure out your part in it. Do you find people in your work that have a real aversion to apologizing?

And is there an over-apologizing? Is there a healthy middle ground? I'm just wondering if couples really come to an impasse where like someone just needs that apology. And there's a person that doesn't feel like you apologize unless you feel like you've done something wrong, which they don't think that they've done. You know, it's interesting. I'm just writing about this. I was writing about it today. I'm writing an essay. And I think one of the things that is hardest for people is to feel like

they've hurt or harmed someone else. And they resist and fight and avoid and say all sorts of like silly things, you know, like, oh, sorry, you feel this way. And it's hard for people to say, I know I've done something that hurt you. And it's sort of similar to what we were saying earlier about working at home, like doing the chores at home. Like people from within their own experience, they don't intend to harm. They're just trying to like take care of themselves or further their own agenda.

They're not really grocking that they're harming another person always. So it's hard to lead people to a place. I mean, as a therapist, it's hard to lead people to a place where they can be accountable, take responsibility well, and not feel like, okay, they've now taken on all the badness in the world. Right. Like, I love that you framed it that way, like, why this is a whole other discussion. Maybe this is what the essay you're writing.

Like, why do we have a hard time of apologizing? Because we think it reflects on us being a bad person, a person that would hurt someone they care about, a person with ill intentions. Yeah. when we all fuck up, we all do things, whether we meant to or not. So I see that that's probably the struggle of like, I'm not a person that would do that. And it's like, but you did. So it's like then people really do these mental gymnastics of how to apologize

about saying the language that their partner actually wants to hear. Right. And we did a whole episode called, I'm sorry you feel that way based on this, you know? Like, I'm sorry that you got upset. and yeah it has nothing to do with me and then that can feel really invalidating too because like it's almost like getting really close to an orgasm and then not being able to finish and you're just like I thought you heard me but then all I'm going to get out of this is I'm sorry that you feel that way and it's it's so disappointing and I was arguing with somebody the other day and he sort of was just like

well that's not what happened well that's not what happened and I was like can you just acknowledge that this happened and this is my experience and say you're fucking sorry I think about that a lot. I think about we all do this. When someone wants an apology from us, we have to think, like, did I do this thing? And what does it say about me as a person? Because I didn't really think that I would do that. But here we are. So. So. For me situation. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But do you think there's power and saying, I'm sorry? Like, it's a profound thing to, to grasp, wow, I get it. I get how. this thing I did doesn't matter why I did it doesn't matter but I can see how this thing I did hurt you

and that matters to me I think that's a profound thing to offer and it doesn't mean I'm a bad person or a selfish person at my core it just were all imperfect right I have had those arguments where you're like I can't believe that's what you think of me I didn't do that on purpose that's not the kind of person I am like how could you have interpreted this the way way that you are. And yes, I can see why saying sorry. It just feels like you're almost admitting that their view of you is correct. Which doesn't mean that. In terms of taking too much time, like, is there too much time that can pass before you say you're sorry or not enough? Like, is it bad to just obviously just abdicating right away and just be like, I'm sorry,

it's not great. But how much time is too much time? You don't want it to be empty. And, right. Right. The empty apology. much time to go by, that's, that's terrible. I mean, I think that's probably situational. You know, you could have an ex come back years later, speaking from experience right now, you know, years long fight. No, but where they're like, it took me years to even realize this thing I did because I've self-reflected. I haven't been in therapy. I've changed and I didn't think I did that, but I did. And sometimes you don't want it, but sometimes I don't think it never feels bad to have someone give you a genuine apology of something that they did.

Yeah. Meaningful, yeah. The thing I'm writing about is how I feel like the recent political movements, especially like BLM, have really helped people with being able to be accountable. Something about like the political discourse nowadays has made a big difference, I think, for people. Yeah. And also just people have had tough conversations with their friends, their family. You know, I think that I agree.

I'm looking forward to reading that hopefully. And, you know, I was just having a conversation with a friend the other day that, I don't know if the friendship just, it changed it during all of that. And they had some tough conversations. And I think a lot of people went through that and hopefully came out better on the other side. Yeah. Changed in ways that then kind of infiltrate other.

Parts of life. All right. Well, this has been a really great chat. We really love all your insights and we're so excited to watch the new season of the show. So if you could tell everybody the premiere date, where they can find your work, we would love that. Yes. Our show is dropping on Friday the 28th, I believe. Okay.

And I know the producers wanted us also to make. mention if people want to work with me on the show, how to get in touch with us. So if anybody wants to work with you on potential future seasons of the show, they can apply a couples therapy, documentary.com. Thank you. This will be out ahead of the show, and this will give people a good opportunity to watch the first three seasons, check up on your work, read anything you've written, and then they can catch the premiere date shortly thereafter.

Can't wait. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Thank you. It's a very fun, engaging interview. I really appreciated it. We thought so, too. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Well, we hope you all enjoyed that interview. And you can find us at Girls Gotta Eat.com. Tickets available next week, Monday, the 17th. But you can start saving the day now and getting excited.

So Girls Got Eat.com will be where you can get tour tickets for the entire Snack City tour. Girls Got to Eat podcast on both Instagram and TikTok. I am Ash Hess. Raina is reina.greenberg on Instagram. Subscribe on YouTube. Check out our sex toy line and our erotic audio app at vibes only.com and vibes only on Instagram and we'll see you next week. Have a week, guys. Bye.