Girls Gotta Eat - How to Stop Overvaluing People Who Undervalue You with Matthew Hussey

Episode Date: April 29, 2024

We are so excited to have Matthew Hussey back, fresh off the release of his amazing new book Love Life, to talk about raising your standards and finding love. He validates the stress (and often sadness) around finding a partner in the first place and why it's hard to "just relax," and then we discuss why you may need to fight against your own instincts when dating. Matthew breaks down how to raise your standards, recognize intention vs. attention, stop overvaluing the wrong people, and let go of "unhatched eggs." He also opens about his marriage and how, at the beginning of the relationship, his wife lowered the stakes while raising the standard. Lastly, we discuss finding the strength to leave an unhealthy relationship. Before Matthew joins us, we're talking about nudes, awkward customer service interactions, the plane window shade debate, and BOOTH BOYFRIENDS. Enjoy! Follow Matthew on instagram @thematthewhussey, order his book Love Life, and listen to his podcast Love Life with Matthew Hussey. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit our website for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Shop Vibes Only. Thank you to our partners this week: Beis: Get 15% off your first purchase at beistravel.com/gge. Quince: Get free shipping and 365-day returns at quince.com/gge. Storyworth: Get $10 off your first purchase at storyworth.com/gge. HungryRoot: Get 40% off your first delivery and free veggies for life at hungryroot.com/gge. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For most people, one of their greatest goals or dreams in life is to find love. It's like the worst kept secret in the world that this is the thing that we all really, really want. So it up, girls got to eat. Welcome back. Do you know that I, like, late in bed the other day, thinking about how you got to say at that one time? What, recently? Yeah. I was like, I can't believe it.

What, people like it more? You know, it didn't even register with me. It's keeping you up at night. Yeah, really, I've been thinking about it. This is also the first time I'm wearing a dress to record in six and a half years. Oh my God. First time I just pussies out. A dress.

Crazy, right? And it's not even like, what are you wearing under there? Underwear? Panties. Okay. And speaking of clothing, I'm obsessed with your shoes today. Thank you so much because they're brand new. They're fresh.

I'm glad because this is a white rug. And I saw shoes and I was like, oh, my God, be cool. Be cool. Be cool. Well, yeah. So these are my brand new Airmaxes. I wore air maxes in high school. I love them.

So I was like, I want to get a pair air maxes. And, you know, spark. is such a sneaker guy and like he's bought me sneakers and like we're like a sneaker couple. And so I told him that I got these air maxes and he was like, you know, send me a pick like wearing nothing but the airmaxes. And I'm like, you think you're kidding, but you know I'll do it. And so like I took like a full nude with like just the sneakers on last night. And then I put a little like emoji because I was like I don't want to do full pussy. He's what if he opens it at work? You know, like whatever. And I sent it. You're putting emojis over your pussy to your boyfriend.

Well, I just like, you're like, I'm spicy, but like a little tiny. I don't know. What time of the day was it? I fired it off when he was at work. Weekday nudes. Weekday nudes. Yeah, like it was a 10 a.m. nude. You got to save like an original version of it.

They're like, I'm not at work. Let me jerk off to it later. But you got a work hours emojis. But teeny tiny, like little tiny little honey pot, like right at the vagina slit. In my mind, if you let me guess, I was going white heart. I like the honey pot. And then I love that like crazy. satanic devil face

like the red face. So I just like teeny tiny over my nipples honestly just to be funny and like fired it off and it's so You guys go to YouTube for the photo. It's weird to wear just sneakers like to be fully naked and just wear sneakers is so

funny. This is so funny. You look great. Thanks. I mean you can tell them funny. I mean it's going to be sexy no matter what. because he had sent me a new the other day that I was like, wow, it's a framer. The whole thing?

But ass? It was funny. I'm telling you, not all guys are good at this. It's an art form. I know. I think it's an art form most women have down. But guys, like, do you have guys you can speak of that sent you, like, really good nudes? Guys, you could speak of?

You know what I'm saying? Oh, that guy who was a bartender in Tampa that I talked. Since we've been friends, that guy. Oh, right, right, right. Perfect body. Just like, it looked like it was from the internet. No, I think that guys, I think it's really hard for them to send nudes. I think they don't even know what to say half the time when you send a nude.

So, like, if I fire one off back, my ex used to do that whole joke about I used to like request nudes from him. And like how uncomfortable he was because I used to like send him so many and he like never knew what to do. And like, I had to be like, just get your dick hard and like grab it in your pants. Like we'll start there. And then he like did that joke about it for years. And I was like, are we going to write new material? No, I think there needs to be like a. masterclass for guys on how to do this. It's hard because it's like corny. Well, that's the thing.

You don't want them to be taking themselves too seriously. But some guys do nail it. Are you looking for a sitting down angle? I don't want to give away to me. I feel like this is like too personal. He doesn't want me to give him away his secrets. Remember that guy that sent me the drop box of nudes. I was looking through them the other day. Oh yeah. Yeah. 16 nudes. This guy sent me 16. Okay. Thinking of like all of those. He did do somewhere he was like sitting down. That can be a a nice angle. That guy had a few sitting now, but his balls were like resting on the chair. It's like kind of funny.

So anyway, these are my air maxes. Okay, we've got to talk about these partners. Okay, thanks to Hungry Root for supporting Girls Got to Eat. Right now, Hungry Root is offering our Girls Got to Eat audience 40% off your first delivery and free veggies for life. Just go to Hungryoroot.com

slash GGE. And thanks to BASE for supporting Girls Got to Eat. Now we don't need to choose between beautiful pieces and functional luggage. Base luggage makes travel a breeze. Get 15% off your first purchase at base travel.com slash GGE. Yes. And this episode is sponsored by Quince. They can help you upgrade your wardrobe with luxury essentials at unbeatable prices. Go to quince.com slash GGE for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.com slash GGE. And thanks to Storyworth for sponsoring this episode of Girls Got to Eat. Give all the moms in your life a meaningful gift.

You'll both cherish for years, storyworth, and save $10 on your first. purchase when you go to storyworth.com slash gge. Okay, so Raina, I'd like want to tell you this thing. I went to an Earth Day themed yoga class. It said it on the schedule. Listen, it said Earth Day. I was like, what are they going to do? Did you laugh yesterday when I woke you out? I was like, hi, have your Earth Day theme yoga class. I'm like, what are they going to do? Play, heal the world by Michael Jackson. That's like the only song I can think of. Or are they just going to do a bunch of tree poses. Like, what are we going to do? Right. So I was like, I didn't care. I was like, you know, I love a theme class no matter what. But I walk in and I check in at the front desk and as I'm like walking away

from the front desk to go put my stuff in the locker, she goes, oh, happy Earth Day? How do you respond to that? And to you as well. Seriously, I go, oh, thank you. Thank you. I didn't do it. Thank you. And then I walked to the locker like, what just happened? It's like when you get out of the Uber, how do you respond to Happy Earth Day. It's not like happy Valentine's Day, happy Easter. Like you can't say you to, you too. So then get this. Nothing else Earth Day themed.

Nothing else. She's just trawling you. She's like, here's what I think happened. I don't care. I'll say it by name. I think Core Power was like, hey, Bianca, do an Earth Day theme yoga. And she was like, what? And so she probably didn't have time to pull it together, didn't have time to write a bunch

of mantras, put in a bunch of poses, and then make music for it. So she probably just every time someone checked in was like, happy Earth Day. And like that was the extent of her Earth Day theme class. Nothing, Raina, nothing else was Earth Day. She was like, it's our Earth Day theme class and then nothing. They could have gotten like organic bamboo mats. Everybody has to be green and brown together. Like everything is recycled.

Like they could have done something. I thought, you know, from theme classes from doing like Y7 and stuff, it's music. So I'm like, it'll be music. But what music also? Like, what's music about recycling? So anyway, I don't. just thought it was very funny because the way I just had a stroke

when she said Happy Earth Day to me. Okay, I have another situation. I don't want anybody to know about this. I thought about it for days. I got a massage the other day and I walk in and there's like three girls standing at the front. Two girls checking me in. There's like one girl off to the side and she's like how are you with the massage? So I check in and then I see a girl standing right there that's like clearly

the masseuse and they go, okay, you're a masseuse right here it's going to take you back and she was standing there for a few minutes and so I meant to go, oh it's you. Because I've been with her before. And I go, Oh, it's me. And she just walked into the back. We never acknowledged that I said it.

Oh, it's me. The whole massage. Oh, it's me. What the fuck does that mean? I don't know. Oh, and I said it with a lot of conviction. I meant like I've seen her before. She's massaged me before.

I meant to be like, oh my gosh, it's you. I'm excited. Nope. Oh, it's me. Oh, it's me. She's like, she just turned around and walking. I thought about it the whole massage. Totally.

I was like, do I acknowledge this? Yeah. It's like I told the Uber driver to also have a good flight. It was so humiliating. What I find myself doing sometimes is like turning to someone that you think is someone that you're with and go, oh, you're not my friend. Just to look someone straight in the face to be like, you're not my friend. Have you ever done that? You're not my friend.

Like it's so weird. You've never done that? Like I think you're right next to me and I go, oh, sorry, you're not my friend. Yeah, I guess I'm dead. It's really funny. It's so rude. I have a question. Do you think of my friend that I talk to all day, every day?

Do you think my lisp has been less in the last month? Or am I imagining it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. With your jaw being. I feel like my lisp has like lessened a little bit in the last month because of the jaw lipo. Yeah, but that was the whole thing. I thought you had more of it with that and now it's corrected, right? I didn't get jaw lipo to have less of a lisp.

Is that a thing? I don't know why it would affect it. You mean less of a lisp than before the surgery? Yeah. No, I think you're still Still Justice Lispy? You're a little mumbly today. Okay.

When we started, I was just like, can I get captions? I have a big tongue. I think that's part of my issue. It's giving Andrew Colley. It's a lazy big tongue. Like sometimes I watch myself talk and I don't see it as much because I must be like working my tongue a little stronger those days and I watch myself.

But I think I do have a lazy tongue. Maybe. Okay, so just confirming. I think you're back to homeostasis. Lisp. Yeah. Like back to pre-surgery. Okay, got it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Post-surgery, I had that paralysis on the side of my face a little bit. So if you guys were new here, I had lipo all over my jaw. I don't know if I, it's still a little swollen. We're getting there. No, no, no, it takes a while. Yeah, I can take months. I have my check-in with Dr. Barry yesterday, though.

He said, everything looks great. I'm great. Okay, perfect. We love to hear it. So before we get into it, a reminder, Mother's Day is coming up, May 12th for all the mommies out there. And Ashley and I have a line of sex toys, beautiful, high-end, gorgeous sex toys. Vibes-only.com.

And it is the perfect gift. The packaging is unreal. It's beautiful. It's luxurious high-end. It is the perfect gift for the moms out there. Yes, all moms. New moms got to get theirs. They may not be able to find a time for an orgasm.

You're in between. They deserve more than all of us. Exactly. So new moms, old moms, like our mom. Like grandmonds? Boomer moms, grandmoms, empty nest moms. Like you know, you've left the nest, leave your mom with a vibrator. And I just can't hype it enough.

We got my mom, the Raina for this past Christmas, and I wanted Raina to give it to her. Because I was like, this is, you know, if I put both of our names on it. And then I got my aunt, the Ashley. And then Tessa got her mom. What did you get her, the Raina? The Raina. Yeah. So we think all of our toys can be for whoever.

But we do really like the Raina because one end is the. wand, which is just very easy. Turn it on. It vibrates on your hotspots. And then, I mean, the clitoral suction on the other end, like, listen, a lot of moms, especially boomer moms, like our moms have not experienced that. I mean, that's going to blow their mind. They're going to be like, I'm divorcing your father. It's a newer sensation.

I don't need him. One of my friends bought it and texted me, she said, I sent my husband out to dinner with the kids so I could like stay home with the rain up. That's sucking sensation. Like, we didn't have that growing up. And then, you know, we have an amazing lube. Our loop is second to none. we sell out of it all the time because it really is so, so elite. And that's great too, especially

if you are aging, I mean, pre postmenopausal, like you just naturally have a little less lubrication down there, get the blowjo for your mom and your dad. Or this is how you suck dad off better. Yeah, exactly. It's a little Father's Day gift too. But we just really wanted to hype vibes only for Mother's Day this year and just for like all the moms. I mean, moms just, you know, they gave you the gift of life. Give them the gift of pleasure. Amen. Go off this. I mean, I can't type it enough. It's the best looking sex toys I've ever seen. The packaging is so beautiful and it'll be a really nice thing to give somebody. So maybe your wife, your ex-wife, your baby mama. Yes. Oh, yeah. Any women in your lives that are moms, we really encourage it. And I think it's just a great

gift for even just like moms to be like if we're talking like baby shower gifts or something like that. It's just like you're going to want that. Because I feel like the whole thing with like, especially with newer moms is all they want is just like some time to themselves. You know what I mean? Especially if they're raising like babies, young children. I mean, you know, kids of all ages. But sometimes all they want is like to send me to a hotel. You know, let me go get a massage, get my hair done. And this can be the accoutrement for that. Go masturbate.

Yeah, now's the time to get them a selfless gift that doesn't involve you. Yes. Let them have orgasms. Those moms and, you know, 60 plus, like they're loving it. I loved it recently. I think this was Cosmo a couple months ago did their whole issue of like sex over 60, I believe. And just kind of like a lot of people don't think about women of a certain age is wanting sex or pleasure or orgasms and stuff.

And I love that they really like focused on that. And so I just think it's a great time to talk about like an older demo and everybody wants pleasure. Yeah. Your parts still work. You never age out of wanting to have orgasms. Yeah. You might need a little blue down there, but get yours.

Totally. Okay. So that's vibes only.com. And then we have really fun stuff coming out. We have a new blow gel flavor coming out for spring. And we have a brand new toy that we are launching soon, which we're really excited about. So get in there, check it out, get on the newsletter. We'll send you all that information.

Okay. One other thing, I had this on my list last week, and I had forgotten to say that when we went to Hawaii, we flew Hawaiian Airlines on the way there. I did a whole, like, review on how I lead that airline is on my Instagram story. I couldn't get over it. The Wi-Fi, it was free. It was better than any. It was stronger than Wi-Fi.

It was like, Earth, Earth-Think Wi-Fi. Flowers in the bathroom? Yeah, flowers in the bathroom. The food was, like, on point. Like, everybody's wearing Hawaiian shirts. And, like, but they said, I've never heard this on a plane. If you're on a red eye and stuff, they'll tell you to, like, lower your window shade and whatever. But they said midday, they said, lower your window shade for a more restful vibe.

I couldn't believe it. I was like, that's right. Go all the way off Hawaiian Airlines. Because if you are new around here, my whole personality is based around my passion for lowered window shades. Yeah. And if you want to text me about it on the plane, she hates it. She hates it. She wants to rest. I am the problem.

I've come around a little bit because you're sitting near me and you do want it to be a little darker. I do. I want to watch the clouds. for hours. I'm just like, there's a cloud. There's another cloud. Like, I like to watch us. I like a visceral.

Yeah. Like, I like to watch us take off. When it's bumpy, I like to know that we're in the first layer of clouds. Then you're in the middle. It's fine. The second layer of clouds. I like to watch all of it happen. And then I'm usually listening to a podcast.

What am I supposed to look at? The back of a seat? I don't understand. I don't understand. I feel like I'm starting to feel reactive in my body. Like in my gut, I'm feeling like anger towards you because you're like representing all these other people that I like fucking hate. And listen,

damn us about this. Go back and see the clip we posted on this years ago and pop off in the comments. They're hilarious because people are divided down the middle, right? But like, I can't understand it because I also have sensitive eyes. I'm like, you just want to burn out your retinas. I don't get it. You're putting a glare on everyone else's screens. I fucking hate it so much. And the fact that they were like, everyone put your window shades down, I was like, amazing. And then I have to tell you that. Have you watched the curb series finale yet? No, not yet. All right. Well, I'm just going to tell you. And this is not really a spoiler. I love a spoiler. I love a spoiler. I love a spoiler. I love a spoiler.

plays of a book all the time. I guess this is sort of a spoiler. So skip ahead if you don't want to know what happens at the very last 30 seconds of Kerb. He dies. Larry dies. It's a Boeing and the window opens and he flies out. No. So Curb Your Enthusiasm is one of our favorite shows.

We love Larry. We have hung out with him. I feel like he is my inner monologue at all times. And the series finale of the whole fucking show, 12 seasons, is him on a plane at the very end yelling across to Susie to shut her window shade. That's so funny. He is you. The fact that this show is.

ends with something that is my defining personality characteristic. I couldn't believe it. He is you. You are Larry. Larry is you. I hated so much. When everyone lowered it on the Hawaiian Airlines flight, the woman in front of us didn't.

She was the only one. But she was like, pregnant. So I was like, maybe she's like, I have to look outside or something for my baby. I don't know. I don't like it.

And I book a window seat so I can be in charge. And I do that at a time because I refuse to not be in charge of the window. However, I am aware that people want to sleep in the morning. So if you fly in the morning, I do try not be a fucking dick. I do put it down. Yeah. No, you're fine.

I know. Hearing you talk about looking at the clouds, I just. I'm fine because I'm scared of you. And I know you'll get up and be like, can you fucking stop? Can you shut that? I think I told this before, but I was on the long flight. I don't even know. Maybe it was like across the pond or whatever.

And people were trying to sleep. And there was one asshole in like the lay flat cabin with their window open. And they were sleeping, which nothing makes me more upset. Like you didn't think. to shut it for the rest of us. And I went over and shut it. I got a standing ovation from the pole plane. That person was sleeping.

It's so funny. I'm two feet tall. Can you imagine me trying to reach over a person? Like you can like bat it shut with your arm. Your arm's longer than mine. I went across the plane. I was in like, I was in like 8A. They were in two at four.

I walked over. No, I went all the way around. It was like a huge plane. I went up through and around and down the other aisle to shut it. Oh, you thought I just booboo. No, I went over across. You went from F to A. You crossed the whole alphabet.

Wasn't it affecting you back there? Yes. You were just like the principle of the video. No, because you know how I get. I'm trying to work on it. Because even my boyfriend said to me recently, he was like, you really get fixated on something. You can't let go.

Yeah. I'm working on it. Also, when you told me he said that, I was like, did you guys meet? Wait, do you know what it was about? It was about being at this restaurant, and I just felt like they had to shut the curtains. Because it was like a low, sexy vibe, and the sun was just setting. It was at this amazing place, Barmonette, and the vibe in there was so dimly lit and intimate and sexy, and they just had their curtains open.

And I felt like it wasn't dark enough in there, and I couldn't get past it. And I just, on the fifth time, when I was like, God, this would be so perfect if they would just shut the curtains. He was like, you really get fixated on things, don't you? It's the same thing of like an open shade. She's not a Karen, but it's funny when she does this stuff. One time, I've told her story on the podcast, and I had to times, but it was my favorite thing I ever witnessed. I was at the beach for like an hour and a half with your dad. And there was like this music, we don't go alone to the beach together.

I was on a family vacation with Ashley. But there was this music playing and it was like really loud and disruptive. And like we just kept talking shit about how annoying it was. And you showed up at the beach and you just turned it off. Yeah, this family. I was talking shit to everybody. They were in the ocean and you just walked over with your dog. Half the family went in the ocean and this one guy was asleep under the umbrella and I went and leaned over him and turned it off.

I posted a TikTok about this a couple summers ago and a lot of people popped off in the comments and like we're being so rude saying like, oh, you sound like a lot of fun, whatever. I think it's so rude to play music really loud in the beach. I think when people do things that if everyone did it, it would be like a huge problem in a cluster. I find it like really rude. Like the same is like playing something loud from your phone in a restaurant or like on a plane or anything like that. Like just you're being disruptive in a public place. I find it like very rude. what if everyone had their music on at like a full blast? That would be insane.

Well, I always think about, okay, whose needs supersede others, right? And it's like, does your need to listen to music at an extreme volume supersede other people's need to like enjoy a quiet, nice day at the beach? And the same thing with the window shade. Like, does your need to have this up supersede the rest of the plane? Like, you're probably affecting 20 other people. So like, you're just being an asshole. Yeah. Listen, I'm part of the problem sometimes. But if you really need to like look out and see the clouds or whatever, but the loud music on the beach, I think it's so crazy. I mean, I guess there's some scenarios you're in like Panama City.

It's that's the vibe. You know, when we used to go on adult spring break, we would like set up like a DJ set on like, whatever, that's different. But like, you're in a nice family beach or you're just in like Santa Monica, whatever. What are you doing? I can't stand it. You think you get to DJ the beach. And then if it's like heavy metal, I'll call the cops.

It's usually not music I want to be listening to. I've never called the cops. I just go over and turn off myself. I always say this and I like traveling with you because you'll do the stuff that I'm thinking about. I'm a Jewish mom. It's how Jared talks about in his special. That lady comes up from the escalator.

She's like, what's going on here? He said they always just complain. His mom's always like, it's cold in here. Is it cold in here? Everybody's cold? I was taking a Peloton ride. It was just pink. She was on a plane and these like two men behind her were just talking so loudly that she like got into it.

She told him to like, stop talking. She's like, why do you think you get to talk loud on a plane? I hate when people talk loud and they're near me. I hate it. I know. I hate when I sit down on a plane, two people are friends next to me. I'm like, God, down, I have to listen to sound of your fucking voice. We're trying to rest here.

Yeah. Put your window shade down for a restful environment. Hawaiian Airlines. Anyways, Hawaiian Airlines. But I want to say one more thing because we talked about our Hawaii trip last week, and I do feel like I kind of said this thing about Hawaii that, like, I openly said, like, I sound like an idiot. I was just like, you know, how did we get them?

And I think I'm just very, like, we went there and we loved it so much. And I felt like my vibe on it is like, I can't believe this is part of America. Like, we're so lucky that we can travel here so easily. and without a passport and, you know, but I do realize that it came off kind of ignorant. I got a few messages about it. Nothing crazy. But, like, I want to speak about things and be culturally sensitive, you know, like, I understand that that's, like, a long history and it's a sensitive topic.

And there's a lot of Native Hawaiians past and present who aren't thrilled that they're part of the U.S. And I, like, like, want to pay respect to that. And I just feel like, I'm not getting to get into a history lesson here. I should probably brush up myself. but we promoted Hawaii, we told people to go there, and if I'm going to be somebody that people are looking to for like to go to this place, like, I just want to speak about it in like a respectful tone. So that's like the only thing I wanted to say. I mean, I think when you travel, Rain and I really always want to be respectful to the culture. When we went there, we went to this luau that was like hosted by like, you know, four generations of this wine family. And I feel like we learned a lot about the culture. And we just kind of told you about throwing up on a boat. But I think we went there and really wanted to like appreciate and be respectful and like support the community and stuff like that too. So I don't know, like listening back, I was just like, I always just want to check myself on stuff if I don't like the way something came across and not come across as ignorant, even though I'm the first

person to say that I sound like an idiot. And we just loved Hawaii. We really have a lot of respect for it. Me when the Maui wildfires happened, I like posted a tonne. I donated a ton of money. And, you know, they are part of the U.S. but I realize it's like different to and that it is sensitive and like a long history there. So that's all I wanted to say. Because I loved it. I want go back. I want to go back so badly. It's a place I'm like, I see this in my life as a place that I really want to like go back and always like be a respectful traveler. And if you guys are listening today on Monday, I want to direct you guys to the Vial Files. Ashley and I are taking over the Vile Files, Nick Vial's podcast, reality recap today. So we are so excited to be there. And I love that show so much.

I'm such a fan. I listen every week. He recaps. He recaps. Keep it in. It stays. He recaps all kinds of stuff. So Love is Blind and The Bachelor and Bravo shows. So we're going to do a bunch of Bravo shows. So check that out also. Ashley and I during a fool girl's got to takeover. I know. We're so excited. We're so honored. We just got off the phone with him. And I'm just like, this is so cool. We get to like host this. Okay, quick break. And then we'll get back into it. I have something I'm so excited to talk to you about. Okay. I'm going to tell you guys about quince. And I do want to say that if you liked my shirt last week, it was from quince. And I didn't say it because they weren't one of partners last week. But that like kind of v-neck, sleeveless sweater,

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Yeah. I'm not like running out to the grocery store that often. Like we can pass the time. I know. So since they became a partner, I'm like loving them. And if you kind of just like value your time and time spent at the grocery store, I think you're going to really love Hungry Root. And right now, Hunger Root is offering you 40% off your first delivery and free veggies for

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first delivery and free veggies for life. Just go to hungaryroot.com slash GGE to get 40% off your first delivery and get your free veggies. That's Hungryoroot.com slash GGE. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. Okay. So you want to tell me something. Okay, I want to break this down. So I saw this and I didn't know about this. I saw this on like, an elite daily post where, you know, Taylor Swift is back in the... Was she ever gone? Well, it's just with the new album and stuff like that, which if you're a Swifty, we don't need to break down the album for you.

I've been, like, listening to it off and on. I don't have a lot of thoughts right now. I got to catch up because I'm going to Wimbly. I'm going to London and I'm going to see her there. Oh, yeah, you're going to go see her. I was going to do Amsterdam now I'm doing London. Yeah, I can't really speak on the album. It hasn't been like top priority to listen to it front to back.

That's no shade. You know, we love her music. Well, you know, like, Beyonce. Like it's not within my realm to be like, oh, I'm still kind of listening to it. Like the Beyonce album came out. I'm listening to it on the spot. I actually opened up my eyes and turned it on immediately. But Spotify sent me push notifications.

I listened to it at like 9 p.m. Then I came out of the 12 midnight on the East Coast. Like I'm listening to it. Me and Taylor, voice noting back and forth about it. Like that's my, I'm Beyonce girl. Taylor Swift, I just haven't listened to it in full. I don't know if it's going to be one of my favorites. I'm a 1989 girl followed by reputation followed by folklore.

You got that ranking. But anyway, we've been busy lately. It's 31 songs. Exactly. She's so generous. So she's back in the news, like your whole feed, whatever. And I saw this thing and I was like, what is it? And it said Elite Daily.

And the headline was, was Joe Alwyn sitting in the booth really so bad? And I didn't know this whole thing. And it basically says two Elite Daily staffers debate the infamous booth gate incident between Alwyn and Taylor Swift. So basically all that happened was that... I don't know about this at all. They were just seen in a restaurant in New Orleans and he was on the booth side. And the pictures are very uncomfortable.

Taylor is up in the chair. So she's, you know, she's so tall. She's like, bit like me. And so she's just kind of look so uncomfortable. And he's just chilling in the booth. People went crazy. They, like, villainized him for it. That's the gross seat.

I want to discuss booth boyfriends. But before that, I do want to say, there is certainly a world in which Taylor was like, I don't want to face the restaurant. Granted, they were in a very well-lit public restaurant. So you know what you're getting into. But I can see a world in which you're like, I have to look at everybody. But also, she looked very, like, physically and comfortable. She's hunched over.

She's in the chair. Everybody's walking by no matter what, seeing them, whatever. But who knows what went down. So I'm not villainizing Joe Allen unless, of course, he's a guy that slides into the booth first. But this really made me want to open up the conversation about booth boyfriends.

Okay. Here's my feelings. You have to let me sit in the booth. I face the room. I'm the girl. That's the girl seat. Except the only person that will not do it. My dad refuses to face a wall.

It is so fucking rude. Somebody who loves me, so proud of me, all this and then he thinks like the sun shines out of my asshole. He will not let me sit in the food. You have to give your dad the boo. Booth. Little Bill. He's in the booth. He refuses to face a wall. Won't do it. He doesn't do his girlfriend, too. Okay. That's so interesting. I mean, it's your dad. You got to respect your elders. Whatever he wants goes. But his girlfriend should break up with him. That's just so crazy. Raina. If I was with a guy and we went to a restaurant and he just slid right into that booth. My dad is immovable about it. He won't even reason with you. If I was on a date with somebody and he behaved like that. It's the same as if they don't ever think to walk on the street side of the sidewalk.

It's the same thing. I'm sorry. Whatever. Maybe we're old school. We like this shit. It gets us wet. It's just a thing. You all should know it.

That terrible guy I went on a date with at Grand Blanco who got to fight with me on the date about gun control and women's safety. That guy I walked in sitting in the booth. No. Maybe face the wall. The way I would walk out. I asked Sparklize. I said, what if we always went to a restaurant and you slid into the booth? He goes, you wouldn't be with me.

You know, like it's just. So disclaimer, there was a couple people in the comments being like, well, my, you know, know, boyfriend is a former military or whatever, he's got to eye the exits. Oh, for God's sake. There's an exception to everything. Excepts every rule. But I can't see someone maybe like Buck that's like I got to watch the exit. Buck.

My dad's not watching the exits. My dad's two feet tall. Who's he going to be done? Yes, if you have a medical or mental whatever reason. A medical or mental reason. Otherwise, this is just one of those things. If I'm out with girlfriends, I don't feel the need to like get the best seat in the place, like whatever.

But if I go out with you, I like to be a little lower because you're so much sure than me. if I'm in the chair, I'm like looking like Taylor crashed over and you're just down in the booth. You know, so it's like whatever. But on dates, it feels like a must. I feel bad because I can't actually articulate why I deserve it more. Like, can you articulate it? Yes, it's comfort. It's like grabbing the car so she doesn't have to walk in the rain, walking in the street side of the sidewalk.

It's making the woman comfortable. It's just chivalry and it's just a little old school. It's opening doors. It's all that stuff. Like it's making sure you offer up your. female date, the comfortable seat first. I hear you. I'm short, though, and so I don't really love a booth.

But when I think about physicality, like, I fare better in a chair because I'm higher up, booths you sink in and I'm five feet tall. Yeah. But I like to eye the vibes. And there's no way I'm staring at a wall for an entire date. Yeah, and then people see Raina Greenberg, and then people see. A-list celebrity. Raina fucking Greenberg out with a booth boyfriend.

And then there's just, imagine? You're on Dumois. Somebody walks over. Raina's a booth boyfriend. So we walked around, they're like, are you Raina? And I'm like, no, I'm not actually. Because Raina would never take the suit. We'll post the photos of Taylor and Joe.

And of course, if you're Swift, you've seen them. And maybe more people saw this than I realize. I just never heard about Boothgate. This is so funny. These two women debated this. Yeah, I would say when I'm out with my dad, I always let him have the booth. That's so funny, Dad. It's something I think about.

I feel like I'm rude if I take the booth without asking. The one woman, Hannah Kerns, said, it almost reminds me of TikTok's Orange Peel theory where it's testing the little things you do to make your partner's life easier. It's just an easy way to show someone that you are prioritizing them. And then people broke it down in terms of stuff that they felt Taylor said in different songs about like Joe and things like that. But yeah, we can't speak on Joe. We don't know what went down in that restaurant in New Orleans. But I just thought Booth boyfriend was like a funny concept to talk about.

That's very funny. Yeah, I want to go. I just, I'd love to hear from women who hopefully like aren't currently in a bad relationship that this is happening. but like maybe dated that guy that like slid right in and just had to have that more comfortable seat. Like what else it said about the relationship? That guy also takes the window seat on the plane. That guy grabs the remote control first when you sit down in the living room. Like that guy's doing that shit.

Yeah, that guy is walking down the street with you and a car comes up and he pushes you into the road. He saves himself. Yeah. Okay. Well, glad we've unpacked it. That's so funny. Okay. So I have to tell you something that I also.

Oh, God. Well, I told the group, we're in Hawaii and everybody was like sharing in the car and I was like, I have a thing to share. and it was so brave of me. I finished a porn the other day, which is so... I've never... Okay, I watch a... I watched porn like once a week

for the last 15 years. I watched a lot of porn in my life. And I enjoy it quite a bit. I have never finished a porn a single time in my life. Like, I watched like the full 11 minutes. I was just going to ask what was the length? Most porns that I watch are on like those terrible sites. So they're like 7 to 11 minutes.

Not that long. I've never watched a porn to completion. Does this resonate with you at all? Because you don't really watch porn. I don't really watch porn. I know. I feel like I'm not your audience. I know.

I understand that you usually put on a porn and get right to it. Did you ever masturbate or you're watching just for fun? What? Is that a dumb question? Had you prepared to masturbate or you were like, I'm just going to see what's up. Like there was nothing on Netflix? Yeah. And was it on your TV?

No, it was on my phone. A couple times I did mirror my phone under the TV. So luxurious, but I was like, I don't need to do all this. It's too many extra steps. I'm trying to have an orgasm. No, usually I watch for like three minutes and I have an orgasm and I've never seen the cum shot. I have never seen somebody like, it's so rare to like see somebody come at the end of a porn. I like never seen it.

What did you think? I didn't hate it. Yeah. You love cum. You know what I would think you would do is I don't fast forward. Fast forwarding. I see you turning on a porn and be like, ah, I got it, whatever, he's the handyman, blah, blah, and then fast forwarding straight to the cum.

Okay. So here. Thank you so much for. seeing me. I don't like washing the oral come. Like I don't like watching people getting in their mouth or on their face. It makes me sick. And so I'm just like, well, I'm just going to wash me like come on someone. I know that's really dirty. You guys. Whatever. What do I care? Yeah, I've never, I've never ended a porn before. But I've been smoking this weed lately. So I bought like weed that was just going to make me like a little, I like, you know, chill weeds, make me a little sleepy.

But the weed I've been smoking makes me like, I can just masturbate forever. Too long? Too long. And normally I masturbate for like eight minutes. I hate the Tessa's here. Tessa, don't look at me. Tessa got her mom a vibrator. She's cool. That's true. That's right. Your mom's doing this too.

Tessa's like, mom, have you ever finished a porn? She texted her. Rana made me ass. She's like, that company needs HR, Tessa. Your dad's going to call somebody. It's just, I've had this like crazy porn evolution, pornvolution. So like I used to just read erotic stories. That's how I started off.

And like I've never watched anything. Then I only would watch lesbian porn. Like the penises could get the fuck out of here. I never wanted to see a penis and a porn. And then during COVID, I started watching like male on female porn. And now I've like hit the top, which is I've watched the end of a porn. Yeah. Straight porn.

So now you just got to go into our app where we have audio porn and get into that. Well, we do have an app and there are erotic stories. But, you know, it's nice about them because you can take them on the road. You know, you can just be on a walk. you do your little cute walk streets listening to porn, which is nice. Right. Watching porn on a walk feels like a male behavior. Yeah.

Like you go into like the Delta lounge. You walk around and look at guys' phones. I bet you like 30% of them are watching porn. Really? It is so funny because I think about guys like watching sports, you know, on their phones, undercover like a wedding. You look over. It's just porn.

That's so funny. They're watching the end of the porn show. You're like, oh, look at that guy. He must be like watching the Celtics game. And no, it's just like, he just like, come shots. Cinema of it. Yeah. Okay.

Well, I loved your update. Yeah, I love Darius. Okay, well, we have Matthew Husty today, guys, and we are so excited, but just going to tell you about our final partners. So excited for this one, it's that time, Storyworth. We don't talk about them so much, but when we do, it's always really important, and it means that there is a reason coming up why you should try Storyworth. So we love this so much, and we're talking about Mother's Day and whatnot, and Storyworth is just this really special, sentimental thing that I have done for my mom and my dad, and my cousins have done for my, my aunt, their mom, and we just think it's such a good thing that you can do. And I'm going to tell you all about it. But before I do, Storyworth is offering $10 off your first purchase at storyworth.com

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Okay. Okay, guys, we are so excited to welcome back a very special guest to the show today. He is a New York Times bestselling author, speaker, and coach specializing in confidence and relational intelligence. His YouTube channel is the number one in the world for love advice with over half a billion views. You have seen him literally everywhere you can get advice on tating from Netflix to Good Morning America, Business Insider, and of course this podcast. His newest book, which we are over the moon excited about, is out now. Love Life. Please welcome to the show, Matthew Hussey. Thank you for having me again.

Yes. It's been, I feel like it's been a long time since we did this. It has. We did it in the summer of 2021. I was in a hotel room in Seattle. You were in the Hamptons. We have been through so many life stages with you. Life stages of the US too.

Like we were like pre-COVID, right post-COVID. And then we were with you on the Drew Barrymore show. We did that panel. And then now we're here in the LA studio. We moved here. We live here. You got married. I got married.

Yeah, that little detail. That happened last year. I feel like you've been through a bunch of stages. I've definitely been through a bunch of stages since knowing you. I've been through happy times, really miserable times. Yeah. Well, and then even now I'm remembering we did like Instagram live during quarantine. I mean, we really haven't been through it all.

Did we do an Instagram live during? We did. We did. I forgot about it. Yeah. It was a different time. I just discount anything that happened during that period. Yeah, what was that again?

Anything goes, yeah. And then we did meet your now wife when we were on the set of Drew Barrymore. And so you got married. Last October, well, technically in August we did a private ceremony, just the two of us. But we got married with all our friends and family in, yeah, October of last year. She's wonderful. We loved her. And she's just beautiful and kind and smart.

It must be really interesting being a dating coach all these years and finally finding the one. It was. You open your book. It's very funny the way you open your book talking about how you're, You're a dating coach who's like a shit boyfriend, which I think is really funny. I don't know. It felt like you were faking it until you make it type of thing. You're super vulnerable about being basically put on blast of like, how can you give

this advice? You've never even had your heartbroken. And like, I can tell. And I found that really just refreshing. Yeah. And the way you kick off the book like that. I mean, it's really honest. The book's incredible.

We are obsessed with it. Yeah. It means so much to me coming from you guys because A, you two are incapable of inauthenticity. Yeah, we just wouldn't say anything. We'd be like, so you wrote a book. I feel like I was telling you what I thought about earlier and you were looking to be like, is she going to ruin my day or not? I know you two wouldn't bullshit me. So it's for you to say that means an enormous amount. And yeah, I think after all these years, I've been doing this for 17 years now, which blows my mind because I always associated with being like the young

pup in the room. And now, like people used to say to me like, you know, how do you know all this stuff at this age and increasingly people stopped saying that. And I realized at some point, like I just passed the point of it being impressive that I knew things by a certain age. That's funny. Yeah. And, you know, one of the perils of starting something like this young is that I'm still making all of your mistakes and I'm still making a bunch today.

Don't get me wrong. But it's like you're still in those phases of figuring out who you are and what you want and not knowing how to be happy. The funny thing is, when I started out, in my mind, I wasn't thinking of it in terms of I'm helping people find love because I have found love and now I'm showing other people how to do that. I was someone who was like this shy introverted kid who got high at 11 years old on like Dow Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People and I was like, oh my God, this is, I didn't realize that was a big book. Like I picked it off my dad's bookshelf and I thought I had discovered this like secret scroll that no one else knew about.

And I was like, wait till people see this. I felt like that when I found my dad's playboy when I was like 11 and I was like, girls can do that to each other. That's crazy. I have to tell other women. Do the other ladies know about this? Sorry. It's a fucked up parallel.

That's so funny. That's really funny. It's as odd me taking an interest in, it's actually more odd, me taking an interest in how to win friends and influence people at 11 years old. It's a very, that's like, it's charming. I don't know if it's charming. It's cute. I thought at the time like, oh, what a funny book.

And then when I opened it up, I couldn't put it down. Like that idea that I wasn't stuck with being shy. There was actually things I could do to have more impact was like a revelation for me. So I had taught myself how to create more opportunity. And when I first started making YouTube videos at 19, that was really just me sharing like, here's how you can create more opportunity. And one of the weird ways I identified with women at that time was so many women when they were coming to me for help was basically it was clear to me they were like waiting to be chosen instead of doing the choosing. And I was like, well, that's kind of me.

I feel like I'm doing the exact same thing. So I'm learning how to be more proactive. Let me show you what I'm learning about how to be more proactive and so much of it translated. But I did not know how to be happy in my love life. I just got to a point where I really knew how to create opportunities. It took me years to figure out like, why am I so chronically dissatisfied in this area, which is a scary thing to be when you're starting to get increasingly known for helping people in an area. Yeah.

I mean, I do believe that like those who can't you teach, and I think that like that doesn't make your advice invalid. But it is really fascinating in the book. We kept talking about it, how you open it up, talking about you read your old journal entries of your, like convincing yourself to stay into these in these relationships. Oh man. So for everyone listening, there's a point in the book where I literally,

what I've done my whole life is like written little thoughts to myself in like my notes or journals or phones to just encourage myself along the way or to tell myself what I need. And I can remember like there was a relationship where I was deeply unhappy. And I wrote notes to myself about that were like, really designed to like get me in a gear where I could continue to endure this pain. And it was like they were like supposed to be notes of encouragement. But I look back now and I read these journal notes and I include a couple of them in the book. And I cringe. I can read one. I'll go for it. Yeah. You said my expectations are what's fucking me up right now. Before I just

appreciated it for what it was. But then I went from gratitude to expectation. You're talking about your relationship. But you wrote that this is this chilling justification for your then well-practiced masochism. My problem is not that my needs aren't getting met. My problem is that I have needs. All I need to do is get back to being grateful that I have this person instead of having any expectations of them. Forget feeling safe, secure, and loved. You're just lucky to be here. The way you describe it as if the notes you're writing to yourself where like you're a Navy SEAL training is just like I think that's going to speak to a lot of people. Like the overarching theme today might be something along the lines of relationship shouldn't be this hard.

They shouldn't feel like a day-to-day struggle where you have to write yourself inspirational notes to get through them. And we're not talking about, you know, 10, 20, 30 year-long marriages, kids. That's not necessarily even the bulk of our audience. But like this was just a relationship, like a girlfriend, boyfriend, boyfriend relationship. And you're out here like, you can do it, man. You'll get through this. Like, that's wild.

And I think we've all been to these situations where we're just training ourselves to be in a situation that is not good for you. It doesn't feel good. I mean, I remember thinking that about the person I was engaged to. I was like, if I can just have sex this week, and if I just get through that with him, then I've like checked the box and done the thing. And it's like, why are we staying in a situation that we don't like that we're not happy with? And of course, if you've children, it's a larger relationship, very different. But like a short term thing, why are we convincing ourselves to say something that's not mentally healthy for us? There are, I mean, there are a number of reasons. Some of them, when we're deep in it, it becomes structural. And like you said, we're enmeshed

with this person and we have a life with them. Community. Kids, community, identity, all of these finances. Some people, this financial devastation if they leave someone. So there's all of that in things that have taken root in our lives. But then even in the things that haven't, there's the what we're choosing to value. Like, I'm choosing to. this person my value in life. So if I hold on to them, I'm holding on to my value. If they leave, my value leaves with them. That's a very common thing.

Many of us feel like if I can just secure this person, if I could just make this work, then I'll be happy. But they ignore how utterly miserable they are in doing that. That they feel fundamentally unsafe with this person. But for a lot of us, that's what our nervous system is used to. I think also being single and you speak about this book is a fate worse than death for some people. And they're just like, I'll choose anything over this. And I like that you acknowledge in the book how painful of a state that can be being single and you can talk about it.

But I think a lot of people stay just because of that and fear of that. You almost have to start from a place of saying, for most people, one of their greatest goals or dreams in life is to find love. It's like the worst kept secret in the world that this is the thing. that we all really, really want. And we have to go through life pretending that we don't want it that much and that we're kind of indifferent to it. And it's fine, you know, whatever.

I just, when it happens, it happens. It's like we have to all pretend that we don't care that much when for most of us it's the thing we care about the most. And part of that is our own shame of not wanting to seem desperate. A big part of it is culture

and telling us that, you know, there's something wrong with you if you don't find love. But there's also a thing. something wrong with you if you try too hard to find love. Like if you want it too much, if you talk about it too much, then there's definitely something wrong with you. So we feel like there's no winning. So we have to keep this to ourselves that we're just terrified that this may never happen for me. And then when you start to throw in the fact that many people want families and

the timelines that go along with that, that increasingly people become panicked that this isn't going to happen for me if I don't get moving, that's like a very, very, very, very, very very painful experience for so many people. So it then is really hard to, A, if you are single, it's hard to be calm. Everyone's like, just you need to relax. And I want to punch the person who says you need to relax because I'm like, it's not easy for this person to relax when they feel like someone else is in control of one of their biggest dreams in life. We go out and create businesses and it doesn't feel like it's dependent on another person. Right. You can go out and do it. You want to get in shape.

It doesn't feel like it's dependent on another person. There are all these things in life you can go and make happen. And then there's this thing that feels like I need to go and find someone to agree to this and to want me and to want to be on the same path as me and in the same stage of life as me. And it feels like your dreams are being held hostage by a person you haven't even met yet. Right. That's a hard position to be chill from. Right. Totally.

So I understand on the other side of people being like, I don't want that, so I'll stay in this relationship. I guess that I hate. Yeah, because maybe it's better than nothing. And you know what? Maybe it turns into the thing. And if I leave it, can I get over the sunk cost of the time and the energy I've already put into this thing all on the idea that it's going to turn into something?

Right. That's a really scary place for people to be. And then when they see their friends complaining about the apps and what it's like out there. And they're like, I don't want to step into that way. You know, at least I know this person. At least I know who they are. At least I kind of know my way around the pain of this situation. And that's the problem is that we get really comfortable with the pain that we are familiar with.

So we repeat that over and over and over again in our lives. And just write ourselves inspirational notes to get through. You could do this man. Well, I had a friend of mine who came to see me. She actually did an interview with me on my podcast. And she saw me at a time when I was like really in that. place like in that denial of how hard it was and how unhappy I was. And she didn't tell me this until after the relationship ended, but she said, when I came to

see you that day and she hadn't seen me in months, she said, I went to my sister's house afterwards and I said to my sister, oh, he is not happy. Like he is not in a good place. and I had no idea how much I was telegraphing that. Wow. I thought I'd like she'd just come in. I'd seen my old friend and we were hanging out and doing the podcast and whatever. And she left and told her sister about how deeply unhappy I was. That's so scary to me that I could be that out of touch with my own feelings and my own experience.

We have that happen to friends. It's really sad. We were just telling you about a friend of ours that, like she doesn't see what we see. You know, like we're kind of able to see how like, her personality has changed as a result of, you know, what she's been through. So, yeah, sometimes other people have to, like, tell you. So the book, and, you know, we have so much to talk about today, but we so wanted to hear of, like, why you want to write it and, you know, how long it took. And like, you know, what was your ultimate goal? Actually, I was in no rush to write another book.

I wrote book 10 years ago. And my publisher every day since was asking, when's the next one? And I just didn't do it for years. I didn't do anything. And I was like, I'm not writing another book until I feel truly compelled to write something. And it got to the point where I'd been through a lot in my own life. I'd feel like I dug a lot deeper in what was going on with people. Like it was really clear to me. Like I kind of got known for this early thing of like, this is way in the beginning,

like talking about how people could make a move. And I talked about dropping the handkerchief. And it was like a fun metaphor that really helped women especially be proactive without feeling like they were suddenly going into this overly aggressive mode of having to make the move all the time. But I had this idea in my head that if I could get women to have more choice, they wouldn't make choices to be with people who hurt them. And what I discovered was that I wasn't right about that theory, that even if I helped people get more choice,

they would still gravitate towards situations that hurt them. And that became for me like, oh, this is something I want to, understand. I want to write about, firstly, how can I help people who are single, want to find love, and are struggling with the emotions and the thoughts that plague us when we're in that place, which is a form of chronic pain. And it's a chronic pain that we need to learn how to manage. And then how can I help people find love faster? And what are the deeper obstacles that are preventing us from finding love. And then lastly, how to be happy no matter what was really important to me because I was like, to me, we cannot wait until a day

where we meet our person to start experiencing life fully because life is too short and these are some amazing years we're in right now. But I used to get kind of wound up when I would hear people say, you have to be happy and whole first. Because I'd be like, who, How many people are happy and whole the day they meet the person who ends up becoming their partner, becoming their husband or their wife? Like, give me a break. Like, all the people that look back and go, they're like sitting there from the comfort of a marriage going, you just really have to be happy and whole before you meet someone.

I'm like, oh, really? Were you happy and whole at 24 when you met the person you've been with for the last 15 years? Of course, you were 24. You were an idiot. It does give the notion that, like, everyone else in a relationship has figured something out that you haven't. Sometimes I don't like that. You know, that like all those people are perfect and I'm not, no.

But maybe it's also like, I don't know, the advice has gotten kind of blown out of proportion because obviously the underlying meaning of that is you don't want to come across like, I'm not complete until I find a partner and giving off this like desperation and just like waiting around for someone to complete you and not really doing things to enrich your own life. There's a chapter I write about in this book called Happy Enough, which is a phrase I love. because it's achievable. Mm-hmm.

Like, I went through a seven or eight-year period in my life, and this isn't like going back 10 years. This is like butting up against the last three years of my life, where I had really severe chronic physical pain. And it was a combination of tinnitus, where my ears were ringing all the time 24-7, and head and ear pain that just never went away. For a very long time, it threatened to just destroy my life.

I wasn't in my life. anymore. I was on the outside of my life all the time. And even in what should have been fun moments, what should have been joyful moments, I was just deeply, deeply depressed. And I remember going to a therapist and saying, I'm just going to live for other people now because I can't, I don't enjoy life anymore. So I'm just going to, I'm going to be there for my family. I'm going to be there for my friends. I'm going to be there for the people that I coach. I'm going to shop for my team at work. But it can't be about me anymore because I don't enjoy things. now and he said that is like hallmark depression yeah it's depression that originates from

physical pain but it's a distinction without difference what you're experiencing now is like full-blown depression as a result of this and that experience with something that I couldn't use my like type a ambition to fix nothing I could do could I went I traveled around the world I threw money at this thing I like did everything I could could to try and fix it and nothing shifted this pain. And when that was the case, I went to hopelessness. I just went to complete despair because I was like, I don't know how I'm going to do this for another 50 years. Like I don't know what to do. It wasn't like three months I had it and then I gave up. I had it for years at that point. I would feel so angry every single day. I was. Yeah, deeply. Yeah. You know what's funny?

I haven't said this to anyone yet on any podcast, but there was a first years ago when I handed a not a full draft, but when I handed a series of chapters to my publisher at Harper Collins, Karen Rinaldi, I sent her this and I was like, hey, I'm ready to write the next book. And I sent her the chapters. And she sent me a email back and she said, I'm so sorry, I so wanted to like this. But there is something deeply off in the tone of these chapters. Wow. She said it reads as really angry. Wow. And I look back now and there was areas where she was over harsh, but I understand what she was saying because I was so angry. Yeah. And what's funny is it ended up being one of the greatest parallels I drew on for this book because this wasn't even too long ago, but I had a woman in the last

couple of years say to me, this was her first session with me. I don't do private training in the same way anymore, but she's part of a very small group of people that I work with. with. And she said to me in this one-on-one moment, and bear in mind, this is her first thing she said to me. She could have asked me anything. She did not ask me how to find love. She said, Matthew, how do I kill my desire to find love? And this was a person in her, I want to say 50s or 60s, I'm not sure. She said, how do I kill my desire to find love? She said, I have been wanting to find love my whole life. And I was married for a couple of years briefly. It wasn't great, but it was something.

Since then, years have gone by. I've never found it again. I so want to find love when I see my friends in relationships. I am happy for them. And at the same time, I just feel this not in my stomach because I see what I want and haven't found. And she said, if I don't kill the desire to find love, I'm worried I'm going to be sad for the rest of my life.

And I don't want to live out the rest of my life. a sad person. So how do I get rid of this desire? And I saw myself in that therapist's room saying, if I can't shift this physical pain, I'm going to be unhappy for the rest of my life. And I thought the things people go through when they're single and they want to find love is chronic pain. It's a chronic emotional pain. But it's, again, a distinction without a difference because chronic pain is chronic pain. So then a huge component of this book became, how do you manage the chronic pain of not having found what you're looking for so that you can get to happy enough. Because if you can get to happy enough, which is where I got to with my physical pain,

you then can start to make a difference in your life again. You can start to make an impact again. You can start to bring your magic out again. You can actually start to create opportunity again from that place. But when you're in that state of depression or chronic anxiety or chronic unhappiness, from there we lose all of our power. Wow. Yeah, wow.

I feel like people are listening to this. Like, what happened with you? You know, like what happened with your pain? Are you like, do you want to share? Yeah, sure. Well, I started looking for what are the tools that I need to manage my relationship with this pain? Because what I learned was there's the physical pain itself and that's very real. But there's also an emotional component to this that is a big problem.

part of why it feels intolerable. Is that like anger, frustration? It was anger and frustration. It was the story I was telling myself about this pain, which was that it's my fault. I've somehow caused this. I've somehow done it to myself. So it's my fault that I'm in pain all the time. It's never going to go away.

And if it never goes away, then my life is ruined. Yeah. And it's all over. I'm never going to be productive again. so all the things I want to achieve, I'm never going to achieve. People aren't going to find me attractive anymore once they realize how fragile I feel. Because even if I look a certain way on the outside, I'm not on the inside. I feel like I'm about to break.

I'm about to snap at any moment. And once someone figures that out, I'm not the strong man that someone's going to be like attracted to. So I'm never going to now attract the kind of person I'd like to attract. It was all this story that turned pain in the moment into something that was immense. immediately insufferable and intolerable. And I put these tools in the book. I started to find tools that really helped me. So, for example, I had a coach that, you know, one of the things during this time,

I felt like things I loved kept being taken from me because they all made my pain worse. So like a nice glass of wine or like eating certain foods. I love food. And it's like one of the things that I escaped to. And then food started to make my pain worse. And I was like, what am I going to do? This is like whatever comforts I have left are just being taken from me. And I said this to a coach.

And she said to me, listen, we don't know how these foods are going to affect you in five years. We don't. We don't even know where this pain is going to be in a year. So let's lose the ceremony of I can never have food like this again. I can never have a glass of wine again. Let's lose that ceremony and just change these things for now. Okay. And then we'll adjust and we'll look at it in time.

But she picked up on the fact that I was going into this catastrophic thinking of, I'm never going to be able to do these things again and not acknowledging the truth that everything changes. Yeah. Everything changes and it's changing all the time. And that's true of people's love lives as well. We have a story we tell ourselves that, you know, I've been single my whole life or I've never found the love I want and the past is going to equal the future and it's never going to happen. But everything changes. You never know when someone's going to walk into your life. life and it's going to be a different kind of love, something you've never experienced before.

You could also find it and think it's the greatest thing ever and lose it. Half the friends you're jealous of right now are not going to be in those relationships in five years. Absolutely. So one of the things you talk about is you open the book, I would be single and a parallel for it. You use your pain. And then the first chapter, you're like, all right, well, let's work on this. And you open with fight against your own instincts. And I love that. And you started by saying like, you think like my instincts are good, lean into them, but like most people don't start off from a place of like secure attachment, great families, you know, safety. And so you're just like whatever, whenever you want to do the opposite.

No. No. I'm just kidding. But I love the chapter and you talk about, I want to unpack these themes of like when someone goes cold, fighting for it, bargaining, things like that. So can we talk a little about fighting as shown instincts? I had a boxing trainer once that told me his name was Martin Snow. He said, your instincts can get you killed.

in a boxing match, your instinct, if you're not trained, is when someone throws a punch at you, you blink. That's not a good instinct. Right. Right. But it's what we do naturally. Right. We have to train the instinct to block or to slip a punch. The same in a riptide. A riptide pulls you out to see. The instinct is to swim to the shore as quickly as possible in the straightest line you can find. But that's the thing that makes you fight the current and drown. We have this idea that we should trust our instincts, but our instincts can be misguided. Our instincts are what we developed for survival. Think of that phrase, survival instincts. Well, what we had to do to survive in an earlier time in our life isn't necessarily useful in the current context, but we develop those instincts and we're

still using them now. So our instinct might be when someone pulls away to text them more, or when someone becomes scarce to value them more highly. Those are not good instincts. Those are instincts that will get you hurt. Our instinct might be the moment we have a crush on someone to drop our entire schedule to stop going to any classes we enjoy, to stop seeing our friends and to give them all of our time. And that would be a bad instinct. The instinct is when we go on a great date with someone and we think, oh my God, this person's amazing. I have such an strong connection to them. The instinct is now to do whatever we can to make it work with this person, even if we have to lower our standards to do it. And by the way, the instinct is also, if you have an amazing time with someone to now think that they're probably the right person for you, despite the fact that afterwards they don't call. That's a bad instinct. And it's based on this idea that if I had an amazing time with someone, that must mean something very, very important. But how great of a time you had with someone is only a measure of their impact. It's not a measure of their character. It's not a measure of how

great they'd be in a relationship. And lots of people can be great on a first date, you know, somebody that's just generally charming and has a lot to say and smiles, a lot makes good eye contact, isn't necessarily a good partner. It just means they're good at being on a date. And by the way, some of the most dangerous people are the best at being on a date. Oh, totally. Because that's what they specialize in is making you feel very, very strong feelings very quickly. So these instincts are dangerous. We have to be really careful. I think there is a deeper intuition that we should trust. But most of us are so out of touch with that intuition that we follow our instincts and we call it intuition. But really it's just this reflexive thing that we do

when, oh, someone's not giving me the attention I want. Let me see if I can fix it. When I was dating my now wife Audrey, there was a moment where I went back to LA. We weren't like, we weren't in a relationship. But she was evaluating me for that role. And I got back to LA and I was like, God, I can't do a long distance. I can't do this. I can't be in this long distance thing. And slowly I started to fade. And then a few weeks after, I sent her a message having barely texted and said,

I miss you, which I roll at looking back on it. But that's what I did. I know a lot of people in that situation, their instinct is to be like, I'm so happy they text me. And they're saying something affectionate. So I kind of want to roll with it. and see where this goes. Yeah. That's the instinct.

But Audrey did not do that. She sent me a message that said, hey, I hope you're well. She said, I don't really know what to say when you send a message like that. We haven't really been that close for a while now. And rightly or wrongly,

this message comes off as a bid for attention. That was literally the text she sent me. And that was like, go off, girl. She's like, take your I miss you. And show up your ass, Matthew. But that was the subtext. She's like, I can't even get a fucking text back.

I miss you. Get out of here. Matthew was like, that's probably the woman I'm going to marry. Oh my God. He's like, that's hot. Anyway. But that was that was, yeah, that was what she sent. And it was like the ideal message.

Because she was saying, what you're saying is out of sync with how much energy you've been giving me. And rightly or wrongly, which is amazing language, because it removes ego from the equation, it says, I might be wrong. But how I'm seeing this, like how this comes across is that this message is a bid for attention. There's no intentionality behind it. And we'll talk about that too. Attention versus intention. Yeah.

So that was, that was like a really powerful moment. But I, for her, at that point in her life, she had trained different instincts. Because there was a time in her life. and if she was here, she'd tell you this, there was a time in her life where she had the complete opposite instinct. But it hurt her enough times that she was like, I can't do this.

There's no point. This instinct that I've had previously is not working for me. I do want to circle back and close that loop. How do we change the instinct of like, I am getting crumbs from this person? It feels like sort of an uphill battle, but it feels so good when I do get the thing

that I'm working toward. The intermittent reward? Yeah. So like how do we fight against that instinct? because for so many people, that feels great. Because I also want to say, like, we have biological instincts and survival instincts, but also we have instincts that have we been conditioned through whatever the fuck, through Disney movies, through music, through movies, through rom-coms, you know, whatever unrealistic.

So I just don't want this to come across sounding cynical. It's just kind of like, let's remove the unrealistic romanticism from some of it, too. Okay, have you seen the new show on Netflix one day? I'm obsessed to that. Okay. I'm one of my favorites. I love that show. Me and Audrey watched it together and we absolutely loved it.

But when we watched that show, I'm not going to give away any spoilers to anyone, but two people meet in college and it's kind of following their friendship and the feelings under the surface. Yes, and then you check in with them once a year on this day to see where they're out in life. Right. What's going to happen? And I love the show, and yet I also thought this is a really dangerous show for people. Thank you. We talk about this when we talk about The Notebook with Jay Shetty.

You know, like, we have been bombarded with this from childhood. We don't need to go down this road completely, but I also just want to validate that, like, some is biological, but some is a true conditioning of being a little warped on what, like, realistic relationships are. There's this bit of a subtext to that story, which I know as a book before, that it's worth holding on to this person

that you were friends with years ago for the possibility that it might turn into something because that's deeply what you want. And by staying in that psychological space, you really don't have the space for any kind of healthy relationship. Absolutely. With anyone else,

you're secretly pining for them for years and years of your life. I think of those as like those stories we have with someone as like the unhatched eggs of our love life that we sort of coddle and nurture and keep warm. And they almost keep us from ever having to live a real life. They absolutely do.

We don't have to go out there and like immerse ourselves in life and be active and involved, participant in real messy, imperfect relationships. We get to hold on to this perfect idea of this egg that never actually hatches, but if it did, it would be incredible. And that's what so many of those stories are about. I've certainly been in those situations, these like will, they won't day, and it feels comfortable because you found somebody that knows you that maybe you're attracted to that feels like a safe space. And it does prevent you from having to go out into the world and face real dating and it can be really dangerous and you can whelm around in that for a very long time.

Some people forever. Yeah, but it does cut you off from scary experiences, but ultimately good ones and people that really do want to be with you. And that's the thing is like we have to suspect ourselves if people who are unavailable to us are constantly attractive to us and people who want us we have a weird kind of contempt for. It's like that we have to start going, what's going on? here that the people that actually turn to meet me are people that I instantly devalue. And the people that are just out of reach, I keep telling myself a story about how important they are.

I love this line that says, it was a series of things, but it said third and the most troubling are the self-esteem issues that contribute to our overvaluing this person we barely know and undervaluing our own self. Like, it's so crazy when you put it into perspective like that. Like, this person who was not given you much, all of a sudden they're on this peddle. have stolen you feel like something's wrong with you well it comes from many places but we're we're making this person more important than our happiness like when we're literally not paying attention to the fact that this person makes us miserable that having them in our lives makes us

anxious all the time it's the complete opposite of you know this person's in my life because they make me happy because they I feel like more of who I am in front of them I feel like I'm at home with them. I feel like they make me a better version of myself. It's literally the antithesis of all of those things. I'm not happy. I'm less of myself. I pretend to be something that they'll be attracted to to try and hold on to them. I feel like I can't truly be vulnerable about how I feel. I avoid saying all of the things I really want to say to this person. And it definitely doesn't make me the best version of myself. It makes me a version of myself that is anxious and unhappy and detached from my family and friends who don't even get a good version of me anymore because I just feel unhappy all

the time because of this person. How can that be the thing? Yeah. How do we retrain these? Yeah, how do we fight against this? So first, there has to be a sense of real compassion about how we ended up in a place where we are overvaluing those things. Like there's a race car driver, Mario Andretti, that said, like, his tip for race car driving was don't look at the wall. Your car going. where your eyes go. And the wall for me was like growing up a certain way. I had a lot of hyper vigilance. And, you know, one of the ways that manifested was like if I was out with my brothers, I would always be the one who's like the guard who's worried something's going to happen. And if you're looking for the wall, you'll always find it. If you're looking for a guy you can't trust,

you'll always find it. If you're looking for someone to abandon you, you'll always find it. And if you can't find it, you'll create it somehow. Because that's the reality you know and you keep crashing into that wall over and over again. And once I realize that about myself, you can't help but see it everywhere for people. So a huge part of changing our wiring and our instincts is understanding, oh, this has nothing to do with this person in this room or this person I'm dating. This is a pattern that's followed me my whole life. And look, maybe this person is untrustworthy.

I just don't know that yet. But maybe they are. What I know is that I keep recreating this situation or I keep pushing people away by not trusting them. So I'm going to deviate from my programming and do something slightly different. And I think of it in terms of like, what's a 1% shift that you can make?

That's a little bit different to what you would normally do. If you've been cheated on your whole life, it's hard to believe that people aren't going to cheat on you. That's really hard. It's like you can't just believe something new because you want to at least. Sure. I've never had that ability. So what we can do instead is just get curious.

What could be a different reality or a different way of being than mine? And I think one of the best places to get curious is with people we know who are living very different lives than we are. Let's say you have a friend who's in a relationship and you really respect that relationship. You think it's a great relationship. And you get jealous all the time. and they don't seem to have those problems. And yet every relationship you've ever been in, it's like jealousy is a major feature of the relationship.

Talk to them and say, why don't you guys get jealous? Like, what's going on? So interesting, yeah. Tell me what's happening with you guys that this doesn't occur. And what you'll hear from them is moments where the exact same thing that you go through

or the exact same circumstances happen, but where you go left, they go right. And you realize like, you could say to someone, so wait, if your partner was like talking to someone and you felt this and you could feel an energy and like, what would you do? And then you hear them go, well, you know, honestly. And you hear them say something completely different than the way you think about it. And then you go, oh my God, that's another way of being. And maybe I can't instantly just do a brain transplant and get every, all of their belief systems. But if I could borrow five percent of that and then. use that in my relationship right now or with the person I'm dating, I can deviate a little bit from my normal programming. And when you get curious in that way and you almost become like a social experimenter with your own patterns and you just do something slightly different and it gets a slightly different result, it is like a new universe opened up to you where you realize, oh my God, my experience of this life, I've been telling myself that's just life. But actually my experience

of this life has always just been my experience of this life. I love the advice of like look at friends whose relationships, the respect and see how they do something a little bit differently. And jealousy and being cheated on as a good example because you can say to a friend like your boyfriend goes out all the time without you, that doesn't bother you. That would make me feel crazy. And your friend could say, I don't know, I chose a partner that doesn't make me feel like I can't trust them. And here's how I found somebody that I do feel like I trust. And here's the characteristics of that person. Like I just, I love that advice of just saying like, how would you handle this thing? Because I couldn't. Couldn't be me. You have to make peace with the fact that when you ask those questions,

you are like a toddler learning to walk in an area where other people may be natural athletes. And that's okay because they didn't have the same trauma as you. They didn't go through the same things. They like developed differently. So by the way, you're an athlete in areas where other people are a toddler. That's okay too. But I really believe in asking really, really dumb, basic questions about areas of life that you admire other people in where you feel like, God, I know this is easy for some people. And for me, it's the hardest thing in the world. I really believe in that.

Yeah. I think we also asked you, like, a really loaded question about what the whole book's about. Like, I think we're like, so how do we, how are we better about this? And that's kind of what the whole book is. It's, like, really broken out into, like, a bunch of different segments that I feel, like, I was saying to you earlier, if you really read this cover to cover, you are retraining those instincts. That's almost like what the book is. So I feel like we really lobbed a heavy question at you. But like one thing I loved is this, these are small things that we're learning, which one of

the chapters I love so much was that attention is not intention. And I love that statement, but then you also broke it up into six steps for sorting attention versus intention. And you wrote this line, don't invest in someone based on how much you like them, invest in someone based on how much they invest in you. So just little things like that are like maybe someone ever thought of that. Maybe someone never thought that attention is different than intention. Can you explain a little bit of that? Attention can feel like intention. Right.

Because someone gives us attention. It feels like the best thing in the world. This person I like likes me. That's the best feeling ever. It feels like we've discovered like, you know, the Holy Grail. Oh my God, this is it. This is what I'm supposed to feel. But we forget to check in with whether this person has.

any of the same intentions we do. Like there's a chapter in the book called How to Tell Love Stories. And it's a really important chapter because it focuses on what love stories we tell ourselves or how we tell ourselves love stories that either make them important or insignificant. And there are four levels of importance that I write about

in any situation. There's admiration, which is just where you think someone is great from afar. You think they're attractive, hot, sexy, charismatic, eligible, whatever. But there's something about them you really like. Not a very important thing because that's where like you get unrequited love from. They may not even know you exist. So it's not important.

Level two is mutual attraction. And that's the phase we were just talking about where someone you like is giving you attention back. And it feels like the most important stage. You're like, I found it. Now I just have to make it work. We hear all the time people saying he calls me all the time, text me, never asks me out. Why? Yeah.

It's like that's because he likes attention. Yeah. And by the way, he likes you. Yeah. It's like, sure. He likes you. When people say, does he like me? It's like, yes.

Yeah. That's with all the text. That shouldn't be the bar. Yeah. Like, he likes you to no end. Yeah. Like that's the key thing to focus on. You're focusing on the wrong part of it.

Because then that's where level three comes in is you go beyond mutual attraction to commitment. Are they saying yes? And if they're not saying yes, then level two becomes kind of worthless, really. What's the value of it? If someone doesn't say yes at the end of it. end of it. Totally. Right. Then level four is compatibility. And compatibility is do we actually work together? But when you're talking about that chapter, attention is not intention. That really highlights a

key difference between level two and level three. Level two is just attention. But level three is really about do we have the same intentions? Do you want a relationship? No, you don't. Okay, well then this is really a waste of my time. And we have to start getting very, very clear about what is a good use of our time. And also, one of the things I hope this book does for people is that it's not just about learning who and what to say no to. It's a bit more proactive than that. It's a bit more empowered than that. I love that idea of investing who invests in you. I think of it almost like there's this pride, proactivity spectrum, where on one side is extreme pride where you never do anything because screw everyone. I'm not going to let you.

give them the power to reject me. And then on the other side is extreme proactivity where you just keep being the initiator and you don't have any shame about constantly chasing someone down, even though they're not trying. The best way to be is somewhere in the middle of those two things. Yes. Sometimes you miss a person that could have been good for you because of your own pride, which I want to validate. And by the way, I was in danger of that. Like I, I want to hear, we got to hear the end of how this worked out, by the way, with

you and Audrey, but. But she was by far, not by far, but she was like the more, she was the, braver one. Like she had real standards about what behavior she would and wouldn't accept. She also had incredible warmth and kindness. And it really messed me up because I didn't know, you know when someone has standards, but they have them in such a way as you can kind of walk away going, the way they did that was really out of order. You feel the anger and the way they express the boundaries and the standards. And I think it is hard sometimes to communicate boundaries and standards in a way that sounds not angry.

Because some things are just like, you can behave correctly or bye. You know? You can feel bitter. Like you've been burned so many times. I think that you blame a lot of people for the mistakes of the last person and it can sound really angry.

And that's normal. Sometimes I have to type out a text message and I have to read it as though I'm the person that is reading it. And I think like, that sounds angry. You know, like I could read it with a tone that doesn't sound great.

And it's a hard balance to strike. It really is. And there are certain things, people do that you'd be justified in having a tone in the way you come back to them. Totally. But the tone, in a way, the tone is kind of the ego part of us. The important part is the boundary. The important part is the standard where you just make clear what is okay and what's not

okay. Like I can remember it early on, I got jealous about something. And I went to this very kind of shut down, passive aggressive, you know, the walls went up. And from that point on, like, she knew I was off. She couldn't get in. And she was like, what is going on? And eventually, like, I said something. But I didn't say that made me jealous and it made me feel threatened.

I started making her wrong for something. And it created this real argument. And again, at no point was I like, I'm not letting you in to what's happened here. Because that would make me feel too vulnerable. Like, that would make me feel like I'd like, I'd like given up my power and now I'm going to get bulldozed, you know, if I really am honest with you. And I had had a relationship, by the way, where I like took a moment to be more vulnerable than I felt like I wanted to be. And I spoke an insecurity.

And this person said to me, this was my worst nightmare. It actually happened. I said this insecurity and this person said to me, I find that really unattractive. Oh, no. And it sent me. You know, like, when you imagine moments where you're like, oh, I could have gone to the dark side there. Like, I could have gone full Voldemort from that point on that.

Like, I was like, that was one of those moments where I was like, in my head, I'm never doing that again. Right. Right. Like, never again. Fuck that. Like, fuck Brunei Brown. I am never being.

You were like, she told me I would be rewarded with my vulnerability. And now I feel like a pussy. Exactly. A hundred percent. And of course. That was the wrong lesson to take from it. But at the time, it hurts. It was like, I'm never doing that again.

And when Audrey, like, finally pulled out of me, like, what had affected me about this situation after way too long of us going back and forth, she then had to experience a whole second wave of me having this vulnerability hangover where I was like, now I'm shut down because I feel like I've said too much. And here we go. Now you're going to find this unattractive. And you're going to see me as this is going to be the truth of me now. Not all the ways I've been awesome so far, but this moment right here.

is now going to be the truth of how you see me. And she said to me, firstly, like, you can't come to me in the way that you've come to me over this. Like, this is not okay. But, like, I understand that this is something's hurt you, and it hasn't made me less attracted to you. Like, I actually love getting to know you better, and I love understanding you more,

and it just feels like I feel closer to you as a result of this conversation, and I love that, and it doesn't change any of the stuff that I think is amazing about you. I just think I know you better. And it was like, for me, that was a moment of, oh, I'm safe. Like, I'm safe in a way that I never thought I could feel safe. I thought the only way I could feel safe is by never letting this stuff out. And it's crazy when we look back in our lives.

Like, I started thinking about this and I was like, this has been a pattern my whole life. This is not like something that came out with Audrey. Well, I got to ask you, what happened after this text of her being like, uh, this doesn't sit right with me? Like, what, how did you guys get to where you are now? think this is the best part of the story. Well, yeah, we want to hear, like, how you guys ended up together from her being like, that's not going to fly. Everyone is always like, that's awesome that she sent that.

That's not even the most awesome thing about Audrey. It didn't result in me going, oh, my God, let's be together. I got that message, and I felt very called out. And I was self-aware enough at that point in my life to look at that and go, she's right. and it would be unfair for me to like try to turn this situation into anything because yeah I'm not being intentional right now so fair enough it's like she's put her cards on the table and I'm going to back away I did not get a text message three days later saying so how are you because that's what a lot of people do because when they have a standard and they send a text like that it's not really a standard it's a tactic

And tactics, when you don't get the result you want, you just change tactics and do something else. Totally. But a standard is who you are. You don't renege on a standard just because you didn't get what you want or what you'd hoped for. You stay to it because it's who you are. And just because I backed off, nothing changed about it from her side. And I remember reaching out to her a little while after that and being like, this was a few months, I think. And I was like, I'm coming.

back to London. Do you want to catch up? Do you want to go for a coffee? And she sent me a message and she was like, yeah, I'm sort of seeing someone now and it might be serious. So it just wouldn't be fair for me to meet up with you or be texting you. But I hope you're great. And I was like, I'm like on the edge of my seat. How this worked out. I know. Well, that's the crazy thing. It's like, that sucked for me because I thought she was great. And I was like, how, I was like, yeah, like, what the fuck? You went and got a boyfriend? Like, what the hell? But I was like, fair enough. She's hot. He just asked you. You'd be like, fair enough.

But eventually I went back to London and she had reached out to me and sent me a text. I don't know what it was asking how I was. Because of the integrity she had had when she was seeing someone. I was like, if she's sending me this text, she's definitely single. Of course. So we met up and nothing changed about her standards. I remember getting to the point where it was like getting physical and she was like, listen, I'm not doing this again. If you're not open to actually seeing where this goes, I have no interest in this. Like this, let's just talk this up to like, it's been a nice time. It's been great to see each other again. But I'm not interested in going down this road if you're not actually coming from an open frame of mind about seeing what this could be.

And she wasn't saying like, we have to call each other an item right now. She was saying unless you're open to seeing what this could be. Keep your clothes on. I'm not exactly. Exactly. Put them back on. Let's be real. You're naked.

She rejected you. There's a very, there's a particularly sorry state to be in. Well, I'm naked, so I'll be your boyfriend. He's like, fair enough. But that was the beginning of it. And it really, like, for her, every step of the way, it was like, and this has become a really important.

word for me when I'm talking to people is progress. Everything's not black and white in life. It's not always like, we're not together tonight, we're together tomorrow in a relationship. It's not like that. But are you actually feeling a sense of progress? And what you can say to someone and what I remember her saying to me was like, if in six months this isn't right, we don't have to be together. You can decide that this isn't right for you. You're not going to be the villain in the story. if you decide like, oh, it's not right after all. And by the way, we might get six months from now. I might decide that you're not right for me.

Yeah. Like either of us are entitled to do that. But what I'm not going to do is put energy into this if you're not actually going all in right now to see what it could be. If you're going to half-a-sit, then let's not bother because I'm not going to give you my best energy and you're giving me half of yours. Either you genuinely are seeing where this could go or let's not bother. but you're not signing in blood. No one has, I'm not asking you to make a pact

that we're always going to be together. I'm asking you to commit to seeing what this could actually be if we're going to bother with this. And that I think was a very powerful thing because it simultaneously created a high bar for what she expected while simultaneously lowering the stakes.

And for me in my head, lowering the stakes was actually what I needed because I had been in situations before where I had run it down the road with someone and then I'd hurt them and I felt like like I hated myself every time. I always ended up feeling like a villain. I hated myself. I was like, I just don't want to do this. I can't face like either getting hurt or hurting someone else. I'm just done with it. And so I started to become a voidant in that sense of like just worrying about even getting in like the water with someone. And she was like, no, no, no, let's see. And she was

like it's okay if you decide this isn't for you, but you can't not go all in. And that lowered the stakes while raising the standards. And that combination was what allowed me to start actually fully investing without feeling like it was too much pressure. And when I started fully investing, I started actually seeing how great it could be. Yeah. And that's what changed things. It's hard to imagine that you can exist in this space of life is long and we don't have to sign up today to be together forever, but also I don't want you to whel around and waste my time. It's a hard space to like find, and it sounds like you both found your group. Because you talk a lot about lowering the intensity in the beginning relationship and not

doing so much future tripping. Like, is he going to be the best father or the best husband? I want to introduce with all my friends. Send his Instagram to everybody. Isn't he amazing? Incredible. Like, I think we want to do that. It sounds like she kind of like lowered the intensity, but still being intentional if

we're going to be here together. Exactly. Exactly. And that's the least you can ask of someone is. I think. Part of the reframe we can do for ourselves is to say my time, my energy, like when I shine my light on someone, it's a really special thing. Like, that's a beautiful thing that I get to give someone. And I don't just give that for free.

Like, that's something that you have to actually go all in with me or at least be open to seeing where it goes. Or there's a thousand other places I could be putting this energy in my life. And I think too often, because we don't value the energy that we have to give, we don't see it like that. So we'll give it away at any price. Or we think that by getting close enough to someone, if we can just keep giving and giving and giving and giving regardless of what they're giving back, we can get close enough to someone that they will start to see our value and will become irreplaceable and indispensable to them. And there'll be this tipping point where all of a sudden they go, oh my God, I can't believe it. Look how great my life is because of how close you are to me. but this is another bad instinct because unfortunately the opposite happens.

Someone feels that there's absolutely no price for all of this energy from you. Right. And so they completely take it for granted. They barely even notice how much is being given to them. They feel entitled to it. And it can be truly horrifying for people to realize that when push comes to shove after months or even years of giving your best energy to someone, their intentions haven't moved an inch. Well, you really have a lot of great information here. And the chapter I love the title is

do not join a cult of two. And you'll explain what that means. And it talks a lot about of like defining the relationship and you give language to use and all that kind of things. We get asked that all the time. You know, like how do I have these conversations where you can really, you know, screw yourself by being in this undefined relationship when you know what you want. And you give this example of this woman that I just feel like I have to bring up because Ray and I see this all the time and she was in this sound like a situation ship that she had convinced herself it's what she wanted and she was really kind of like stood up and talked to you and she had this like whole bad bitch persona and it's like no no no like I want this too you know like he's not committed to me but we've

agreed to this and she finally broke down when you asked her a series of questions and was like the truth came out and what you wrote was she had appropriated his excuse in order to stay in rapport with him and in doing so and silenced her own voice. When she was speaking to her own friends, it wasn't her speaking, but the guy who was ventriloquizing her to maintain a status quo that he was happy with. And it breaks my heart when we see this happen. We see it happen all the time. And you know that someone has just conceded of what they really wanted and had someone break down their boundaries to have what they want. And then you've somehow been convinced that that's what you want, too. It's kind of terrifying. The ability people have to be able to do that to us.

us where we and that language was used very intentionally that do not join a cult of two because it's kind of what it feels like is this slow indoctrination where inch by inch we're moved further away from the thing we originally wanted yes yeah and towards something that at a certain point no longer resembles anything of what we ever envisioned for our love life and because we've been indoctrinated by that point, we end up defending this weird situation we've ended up in. You know, the example you give is one of the women saying, we both just have really busy schedules as entrepreneurs and it means we can never see each other. And I'm like, but is that what you want? Right. And she's like, well, and I'm like, if he's suddenly freed up a lot of time to see

you, would you free up a lot of time to see him? She's like, well, yeah, probably. And it's like, so this isn't you. Right. This isn't you talking. It's him talking. And, It's easier for us to co-opt the excuse and to pass it off as our own. Because if we didn't, we'd have to admit to ourselves that we have been pushed into a situation that doesn't work for us. Sure. And it's easier to maintain that cognitive dissonance of like, no, no, no, we're deciding this. We have agency in this. I'm also deciding this.

And really what's happening is this person is allowing you to be treated, however you're allowing yourself to be treated until you say no or stop. I've watched this happen to people in dating. I've watched it happen to people in marriages that last decades, and we can really lose ourselves. That's the scary thing, is you really, you can lose touch with who you are, with what matters to you, with the things that keep you anchored in your world. And of course, when this goes on for too long, it really isolates you from your life.

Because you start by telling your friends, this is what happened last week, or this is what they're saying. certain points, certain friends, like truth tellers you have in your life, will say to you, that's not okay. Like, that's really selfish or that's, I don't like that. And if you're not willing to leave, then what gives is that you just stop telling those friends, those things. And your sense of self-worth and what you deserve. I mean, we see it all the time. We've seen women that are so wonderful and worthy just be like beaten down. I don't want to go so negative all the time, but it happens a lot. And I think that only you can stop it and say, I deserve more. Yes. And you have

to be really honest with yourself about how the situation you're in is fundamentally incompatible with you being at peace and you being happy. And there's a chapter that I think is one of the most important chapters in this whole book called How to Leave When You Can't Seem to Leave. And in the chapter, I say you have to be willing to light the fuse that blows up your own life. And that's a really hard thing to do. It's easier to have someone break our hearts and betray us and leave and say I never want to be with you again, at least with a victim. Yeah. But when this person will gladly take your time, your life, your intimacy, and just put you on a

slow drip for the next 30 years of your life, you have to be the one to detonate. And that's a really, really difficult thing to do, especially when you consider the short-term chaos, the mess that you will feel in your life as a result. It takes massive guts to be the one to do that. And there's no easy answer to this. The tragic thing is that some people have to get to a place where their life completely blows up before they find the strength to do that,

before it almost becomes like there's no other option because my whole life has fallen to pieces because of this person. And that's what happens in a lot of narcissistic relationships is that someone's entire life has to fully blow up before they walk away. My mission with that chapter, I say this with complete humility,

because for some people it will help them and for other people, their lives will need to blow up. But if I can get 10% more people to detonate before their life has to blow up five years from now or 10 years from now, that to me was worth writing the book for. 100%.

We agree. You guys detonate. Light that fuse, blow up your life. It's been a very romantic episode. No, I really appreciate you sharing about everything that you've been through and your personal stories and how that really was so curious about how this all happened with Audrey from that first. I miss you text and so I really appreciate you sharing with stories. She just always is, there's always a section where we bring her on stage now because people just, they really want to hear from her. Yeah.

And she has such amazing understated insights. But when people watch her and they hear her, they get like, oh, this is who she is. This is like coming from a very real place. So, yeah. It's not performative. No. Well, this is wonderful. Ashley and I truly, we read a lot of books about dating relationships.

And we just love this. And we love your wife. And we've met her. And she's great. And we love having another show. And I'm sure that everybody's going to want to get the book and find you. And are you still doing events? Well, we're doing an event on May the 4th called Find Your Person.

And the whole event is like, what would I tell people? to do with their next year if I was trying to make it inevitable that they found their person. Maybe I'll come. And it's like me creating a roadmap for people. But the cool thing about the event is it's literally free for anyone who gets a copy of the book. It's an exclusive event. So only people who get the book can come. But it's virtual.

You can do it from anywhere in the world. My wife Audrey is going to be joining me for part of it on stage. And if you go to lovelifebook.com and order a copy of the book. you can literally put your receipt number in on that page, and we will email you your complimentary ticket to that event. So I'm sure it'll be great. You've done so many speaking events and live events and everything, so I'm sure it'll be wonderful.

And people can find you on Instagram and everywhere else they can find you. Your website, by the way, it looks great. Yeah, it was horrible before. It was not great. It was amazing now. But it's like it takes time to do all these things, as you know. We updated our vibes only website. It took us for ages.

It's, but it looks beautiful. Your website's fantastic. I really appreciate that. We've been putting hard work into it. The website is Matthew Hussie.com, but right now, I mean, the big things going on is the book. I'm so proud of it. I think it's going to help a lot of people. That's at lovelifebook.com.

And we have a retreat this year that we're doing, and people can come and check that out. And the podcast, Love Life with Matthew Hussie is our podcast, if you want to check that out. But honestly, you're never going to get, like, if I make a YouTube video, I've spent like five hours on that YouTube video. This book has had. hundreds of hours spent on it. So it's the best value thing you'll ever get. Get the book.

We can't recommend enough. You guys, one thing, get the book. And you guys know where to find us. Girls Gotta Eat.com for those tickets to the no crumbs tour, Girls Gotta Eat Podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Hess. Rina's rana. com.

Of course, Vives Only. That's going to be vibes only.com. Subscribe on YouTube. Share this episode with a friend. Get Matthew's book. And we'll see you next week. Have a good week, guys. Bye.