Girls Gotta Eat - How, When, and Why Liars Lie with Psychologist Drew Curtis, PhD

Episode Date: August 19, 2024

We're uncovering the truth about liars on this episode with psychologist and author Drew Curtis, PhD. We discuss pathological liars, why some people lie all the time (especially about insignificant things), and if there are ways to detect a liar. And of course we talk about lies and deception in dating – the point in a relationship where people lie most, the differences between what men and women lie about, the motivations for dishonesty, if you can regain trust after being deceived, and if "once a liar, always a liar" is true. Before Drew joins us, we're talking about Rayna's cowgirl fashion, Ashley's favorite/most random fan encounter, and we're popping off about people taking pics. Enjoy! Find Drew on X @Dr_CurtisPhD, find him online at angelo.edu, read his book Big Liars: What Psychological Science Tells Us About Lying and How You Can Avoid Being Duped, and check out the Curtis Deception Lab. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Thank you to our partners this week: Armra: Get 15% off your first order at tryarmra.com/girlsgottaeat or use code GIRLSGOTTAEAT. Skims: Shop the Skims Soft Lounge Collection at skims.com. Gametime: Get $20 off your first purchase when you download the Gametime app and create an account with the code GGE. Fresh Direct: Get $50 off your first order at freshdirect.com with code GGE. ZBiotics: Get 15% off at zbiotics.com/gge with code GGE. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We're talking about dating. When you look at when we tend to lie, most people lie more early on in relationships. And men and women do it differently because they're after different goals. Let's talk about that. This podcast is a Dear Media production. Hi guys. Hi guys. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Got to Eat.

Welcome back. One month till the tour. Yay. I mean, one month in a couple days. But this is the week of in a month. I cannot fucking wait. I'm so excited, girl. Vegas?

Everybody's going. Everybody's going. All of our friends are coming. I just keep inviting people. Like, I don't even know if we have tickets left. I just keep being like, the amount of people I texted this morning, you should come to Vegas. Everyone's like, yeah, come. Everyone.

I feel like it's a destination wedding where people plan for 70 people and then 100 show up. Okay. So you are going to be there with your boyfriend and I'm having to have self-talk with myself where I'm like, don't convince her to get married at a chapel. Like, I'm kind of have like affirmations in the mirror. where I'm like, I'm not going to black out and tell her I would die if we went to a chapel right now. Okay, but like so many people are going to be there. I know. If we could get your brother to fly there, we don't do it.

If my family's there all of a sudden, I'm like, oh, I guess I'm getting married this weekend. I like the little white wedding chapel. Oh, no, everybody is going, like so many, our New York friends, like we had to ask for more hotel rooms. We were like, yeah, can we get some way? I know. I was like, actually, you were like, can we get more rooms? We did. And they said, yes.

I went to the Cosmo. I cannot wait. I've never even been there. Everybody says it's the best venue. Yes. Every time we say we're doing the Cosmo, people are like, what? You guys, it's next month. Just get the girl group together.

Bring your slutty friends. If you want to fuck in Vegas, just come. You would get married? 36 hours in Vegas. Just like pool party, dinner, our show, wake up, brunch, go home. Bus. Another bus. Club.

Another club. No sleep. The openers are going to be fired. It's going to be extra sexy. I really haven't real it in for the costume. costumes. The stuff that I've been working on is crazy. I have to put it back in the box.

I need to know what you're doing in Vegas because I feel like I sent you the dress and you were like cute. No, I said that looks hot. I said like if I sent you flame emojis or something. But are you not if I wear like a showgirl outfit? Mad. Does it just laugh at you. We're laughing at you.

I had like red sequin body suit with red feathers. Like I'm... Feathers. It's a showgirl outfit. Yeah. Not the headdress. I'm not wearing the head dress. Please don't, you can't.

I don't think I can take myself seriously on stage. I feel like when we don't perform, like, why am I living? Like, what am I getting all these stories together for it to tell no one about? Like, I'm just part of our job. But like, no, we're not on tour. Oh, like, prior. Like, I fucked that guy in Vegas back in the spring and like, I didn't even even even tell about it.

Right, yeah. Because you guys weren't with me on a stage. Oh, oh, right. We're going back to the scene of the crime. Yeah. That's crazy. I'm excited. So, all right, wear your feathers.

We can't wait. And then immediately after that, my hometown show, Pittsburgh, and then Indianapolis, my college hometown show. And then Detroit, Ashley's favorite place. Yeah. So grab those tickets. GirlsCottya.com. I got a little hair refresh if you guys haven't noticed. It's not that different than what I used to have.

It's lighter. It's a little lighter. But I mean, I've just been my natural color for a long time. But my hairdresser, I have a new hairdresser here in L.A., recommended by my newer caredresser. They've worked together. And I was like, I just couldn't go back to New York. So I was like, I need someone here. You know, so she recommended her bottom line.

whatever. We got along really well. I loved her so much. Her name is Haley. And she was like, we were talking about touring. And she was like, so tell me some of your favorite favorite New York. God. People don't expect it. Yeah. Yes, your favorite like unexpected cities. And I was like, you have asked the right question. She was probably like, oh, wow, that's a lot. Like I couldn't stop. I was like, we love Ohio. I was like Detroit. I was like, people don't give Ohio enough love. Like I was going off. Yeah, I was like, Indie. Have you been in Milwaukee? The best. Madison, Wisconsin. I was like, I can't wait to go to Madison, Wisconsin this year.

We mean that. Yeah, so like Raina said, popping off in Vegas and then the following weekend, so excited for Pittsburgh Indy and Detroit, Royal Oak, if you will, and then of course all the other dates. But you guys can check all of those and get your tickets at Girls Gotta Eat.com and we can't wait to see you. So excited. Okay, let's thank some of our partners and then we will get into the episode. Thank you to FreshDirect. Get $50 off your first order at FreshDirect. Get $50 off your first order at TryArmra.com. slash girls got to eat or use code girls got to eat. Yes. And thanks to Skims, shop the Skims soft lounge collection at skims.com and game time. Get $20 off your first purchase when you download the GameTime app and create an account with the code GGE and Zbiotics. Get 15% off at zbiotics.com slash gge with code GGE. Okay. So at this time today, when this comes out, we will have just

gotten back from Jackson Hole yesterday. I have dreamed of going to Jackson Hole. It's been on my, I have like I have a trips list on my phone, a places I want to go to. And, like, Jackson Hole's been so high up on that list for so long. And you and I are not ski girlies. We're not like winter sports people. So it's like really a summer destination for us. Yeah, exactly. So, like, we finally have planned a trip to Jackson Hole. I feel that like my soul is in Jackson Hole. I feel like I am meant to be with a cowboy and wear Western wear. Like, this is the most excited I've been to plan wardrobe for a trip. I have a hundred outfits upstairs. I've decided. I have to decide between. I just, like, see what you're doing. I'm so. I'm so. I'm so. I'm so.

I have suede. I have jean. I have fringe. I have silver pants. Everything is lace up. There's nothing that isn't lace up. I have stars on the butt of stuff. I just, I have studs everywhere. What are I doing? I bought my doing. Where are we going? Are we just going to dinner? What's the plans? I'm trying to fuck. Okay. You and I'm doing. I know. I'm trying to meet a bunch of cowboys. I got us tickets to the rodeo. We're going a million-dard cowboy. I have a bunch of statehouse reservations for us. I booked horseback riding. I have a hike the going, I bought my first pair of hiking shoes. Right now, when you were wearing a lace of corset on that horse, they're going to be like,

ma'am, you didn't need to wear leather pants on the horse today. Someone told me yesterday you to wear pants to horseback ride. I genuinely forgot. Yeah. I'm so excited. And you did plan this. I, so the thing is, like, I will plan a trip and I'm very good at it. It's just like, if somebody else...

You don't want to do it. Yeah. Listen, if it's you, you can plan my trips. I would never give somebody else that power besides you. No, I'm really glad. You, like, emailed us. We're just going with our friend Rob and his wife. And yeah, I mean, I have always wanted to go to.

I've never been to Wyoming. Yeah, me either. Where else would you go in Wyoming? You say it like there's tons of destinations. It's just a state. We've been to a lot of states. That's true. There's only a few we haven't been to.

Yeah. Nebraska, Wyoming, the Dakotas. Mm-hmm. And that's, I mean, maybe like Mississippi. Montana. I do want to go to Montana once. Same, yeah. No, I'm really excited.

So I hope you get to live your truth. I feel like I got to get on your level. I don't want you out here literally looking like a live show and I'm in jeans and a body suit. So I do have to have some self-talk where I'm like, this is not a costume. Like this is not Halloween. Like the shorts I bought have so much fringe and studs on them and like a lace-up corset and it's not Halloween. Okay.

You got to stop. I'm not trying to, like I'm genuinely asking. Like where would you wear that? Where's the line? No, where are you going to wear these shorts with your lace up corset and your like cowboy boots? Like what is your vision? To dinner? To dinner.

Yeah. Okay. I respect it. On our hike. Okay. And I saw that the weather does change pretty drastically. So at night it will be cold. So I'm just going to get in two outfits a day.

Totally. Which I'm so amped about. I have so much fringe. I feel like in my wardrobe day to day I have it. Fringe. I love that. I know. You have inspired me a little bit.

I was like online using one of my like revolve credits last night. And I got these like leather like brown leather pants. But I do. do have this denim corset I haven't gotten to wear yet. I just haven't had the opportunity. And so I'm going to do that with kind of like a coated black leather-esque kind of like crop gene with like a heel. That's amazing. Yeah. And I do have new silver pants. Okay. So I'll do those like a black leather corset top. Yeah, I'm going to do looks too. You're in. Yeah. No, I'm not going to like leave you hang in. Yeah. So I have silver shoes. I have like four different

kinds of boots. I have knee high boots. I have so many boots. You know, Raina has no problem. Approaching people, meeting guys, whatever. She's. never has, but with Rob with us. Oh, Rob's going to do it all for me. I'm not going to do it. But he won't let you, like, he won't let me. Yeah, like he is like a coach. I love it, you know, literally just like your trainer on site. I feel like I'm going to get so much attention from the three of you. You Rob and his wife, like, it's just going to be like, who does rain and want to sleep with here? And all three of you are just going to like egg me on. Like, there's not going to be me saying that guy's hot and then I'm not going to go sleep with that guy. I'm so excited. God, I can't wait.

I'm so excited. I know. I feel like we really did. some bucket list trips this year with Hawaii. Yep. And then I took my trip to Canada, but like this in the States, like these were two things that were on our list. It's been on my list for a long time. San Sebastian and I checked that box. And liking Paris.

Check that box. And I just booked a trip back to Paris in London for the holidays. So I'm excited. Well, I had wanted to share this one story. And I think it's going to lead you into something that you wanted to talk or rant about. But I forgot to mention this last week when I recap my vacation. I just thought that was very funny because we love to talk about seeing girls got to eat, listeners in the wild.

and I had quite possibly my favorite listener encounter in the middle of Lake Louise. Never see it coming. So we were in Lake Louise and we're like, it'd be so cool to get a picture of us in this canoe, like of us, like from someone else taking it. You know what I mean? And how are we going to do that? And I'm like, we should just ask somebody that's in a canoe to take a picture of us and air drop it and like we'll do the same for them.

And like what a great plan, right? So we're just like looking who looks like kind of young. and cool. You know, that's how I pick them. Yeah. And, you know, who can we get close? There wasn't a ton of people out there. Who can we get close enough for the air drop will work, you know?

And you have a TikTok account. Huh? But I try to pick somebody. It looks like somebody like Tessa that looks like young and cool. Yes. Sorry. I'm not young and cool. You're like, what is TikTok?

I didn't even get that. Okay. So I see this like younger couple and she's filming him. So she's already making content. So like she'll be perfect. So I don't know why I asked in this way, but I yell across the lake. I go, hey. Do you guys want us to take a picture of you?

And then we'll send it to you and then you'll take one of us. So my opening was, let me offer to take a picture of you too. Can I take a picture of you too? Actually, I always do that. Yeah. But it wasn't like, hey, can you guys get a picture of us and then we'll take one of you? I led with like, can't take a picture of you.

Yeah. She goes, Ashley? I can't stop laughing at this. You're in the middle of a lake. Ashley Heseltine? Oh my God. She's like, babe, that's Ashley. Her girl's going to eat.

We're going to the Vegas show. She's coming to the show. I'm so dead. When you tell me you're coming to a show, I know you're like a real one. On another continent in the middle of a lake. Not continent. I just want to clear up to country. I get them.

I guess sometimes. Um, so. Like, guys, sometimes I forget what you see where it is. And then I'm like, okay, but are you going to get the picture? And she's not taking any. Like, I was like, so, are you going to, do you want to do this?

She's like, I just want to talk. The canoes are drifting farther apart. And I'm like, pay, we're not going to get the picture. You know? Like, I had a goal. here and I'm really glad that you met. So then I'm like, how do I facilitate what we agreed upon with the photos

and stuff? So like, I take some of them. I take like very cute pictures of them and then like the air drop didn't work and then I say to Sparkle Eyes I'm like, did she even take any? And he was like, I think she was taking like fan picks. You know, like we didn't pose for anything. She's taking

selfies. So then I'm like, just DM them to me. Just DM them to me. Whatever. And she was like, okay, okay. And then, you know, we kind of drift away, whatever. I was checking my DMs every five minutes. You even told me you were checking your DMs. It was like I had a crush and I thought they were going to DM me.

Like I could not stop checking my DMs because I was just so excited to get these photos. And she never sent them. You never not. No, she never sent them. I posted the reel of us in the lake and then she's in the comments. And I knew her name. She goes, oh my God, it was so fun to meet you in the lake. I thought she was ghosting me.

Here she is. I DM her immediately. Why am I fan girl in this girl? I DM her. You better give those pictures. I DM her and I'm like, hey, do you have those pictures? And I sent the ones of, because I didn't know her handle. So I sent her the ones of her and her boyfriend.

They were great. And she was like, oh, my God. I'm sorry. They just, like, weren't that good. And here's the thing. They weren't that great because we just didn't have the good angle. Like, we just only had trees behind us. Like, the best angle is like the full, you know, depth and breadth of the lake and, you know, that scenery.

So she didn't do anything wrong. It's just like, we didn't have the best background. Yeah, you should move your boat. Theirs were much better. Yeah, we should just spawned our boats around. But she sent them and they were like fine. We just weren't in the right place. So it was just a very fine.

funny thing. And like that was at that point the first listener we had even encountered. Like we did see more in Banff and then it was like a lot. And it was a lot of people that like worked in restaurants and bars. And we did see some people once we got to downtown Banff. But at that point, really hadn't seen anyone in Vancouver. Really hadn't seen anyone like Louise, we had just gotten there. And he was like, the fact that this is the first girls got to eat, fan we've seen and it's in the middle of this fucking like, it's crazy. You don't see it coming on a lake. I voice studio. I was like, I got to tell what happened. And Raina goes, I just laughed out loud, a fan in the middle of the lake, ha ha ha,

if my hero asked me to take a picture of her on a remote lake. Like the fact that I was just like, can I get a picture you? Anyway. I always do that. I always like ran up to people on offer first. Like when I was in Santa Barbara alone, I saw this couple. She was pregnant.

And I was like, we can picture you guys. You look so cute together. I'm like, you're going to turn this around, take one of me. Yes. And we saw this very cute couple,

like my parents age. They just kind of reminded me my parents. You know, they were really cute. They were at Lake Moraine and they were taking solos of each other. And we jumped in and asked we could take a photo of them and then they took ones of us and they did a pretty good job,

which now I want to kick it to you because I know you have a lot to say. Okay. I do have a rant. I'm going to pop off so hard because people are so fucking lucky when they ask me to take a photo of them. But we're going to just thank some of our partners get right back into it. Okay. I am so excited to tell you guys about game time. I have told you about them before.

This is a way that I am getting tickets for sporting events and concerts. And I mentioned before that I got scammed on these tickets for a Celtics game, a playoff game. And then I went on GameTime and was able to secure tickets. I mentioned before that they were less expensive than the exact same seats that were on another app or another site that I'm not going to name. So we're really into it. I love the app. It's so easy. You can see the view from the seats.

And they have a new feature called Game Time Picks that makes getting tickets for concerts and events even easier. So Game Time Picks filters out the fluff to show you only incredible deals on great seats so you don't have to waste time searching through thousands of tickets. I keep recommending this to people. Like if people don't know about this, I'm like, don't waste your time and money on, again, other sites that will remain nameless. But just really go to game time and pick exactly where you want. They have all in pricing. So when you toggle this feature, it's going to show you the total up front with no surprise fees at checkout.

Again, seat views, which is just necessary when I'm getting tickets. I need to see what the view is going to look like. Lowest price guarantee and game time ticket coverage. And so, yeah, you really don't have to worry that these aren't going to be legitimate tickets or anything like that. Your purchase is covered with the most flexible. customer service policy in the ticketing industry, which is great too. So we just love it. I mean, whatever you guys are looking into concert, any show, you know, anything that's going to be ticketed as far as like a big sporting event or a big concert, just get in there and find these deals

and view your seats and just feel like you know your purchase is going to be covered. So you can take the guesswork out of buying concert tickets with GameTime, download the GameTime app, create an account and use code GGE for $20 off your first purchase. Terms apply. Again, create an account and redeem code GGE for $20 off. Download game time today. Last minute tickets. Lowest price guaranteed. The app is super easy to navigate and you're going to go right in. You're going to see where that $20 is going to be and you just like redeem it at your checkout. Okay. And our newest partner, I'm so glad to talk about FreshDirect because I've been a long, long time fan and customer of theirs dating back to New York because they really are like the only

true replacement for a grocery store and they offer wide-engine products, pantry staples, specialty items. Great prices. I mean, I couldn't get enough of this and I lived in New York because I didn't have a car. And so to have something that I like really trusted to deliver groceries to me was unbeatable. And I think there's some other times you get somebody to deliver groceries from the store and you're like, I don't love the quality of this. It doesn't feel as fresh as it is. But I have always been so happy with what they've done. Freshrect is farm to kitchen. The food is sourced directly from farmers, fishermen, ranchers and delivered straight to your door. They really just remove all the time and energy it takes to grocery.

shop and you can shop online. I love their site and I love their app. It really is just so convenient. It's really unbeatable. You can shop from anywhere your office or your couch, anywhere you want and have it delivered to you. It's a game changer. It saves your time. Who wants to lug groceries around unless that's your Olympic sport? Yeah, I remember before I moved to New York, I would always go and stay with Rob. And I mean, he's a food guy. You know, he's like a food stop and his whole fridge would be fresh direct. And I was like, what is this? This is crazy. Because, you know, I was still like driving the grocery store. And then I moved to New York and It was like the first thing I did was just like I got to get on FreshDirect, get all those groceries

delivered. I used it for so long. I've gotten everything delivered. Pantry staples, produce, all kinds of stuff and I've always been super, super happy with it. So for over 20 years, FreshDirect has been delivering the freshest, fruits, vegetables, and meats to the tri-state area. Don't take my word for it. Try it to believe it with $50 off your first order. Go to FreshDruck.com and use the code GGE. That's FreshDirect.com. Code GGE for new customers to save $50 on their first order. terms and restrictions apply. See site for details. $50 off. Great deal. Okay. And Zbiotics, let's face it, after a night of drinking. I don't bounce back the next day like I used to. Neither

I think a lot of people feel that. And so you can make a choice. Either have a great night or a great next day. And so that is where Zbiotics comes in. Zibiotics pre-alcohol. So I'll tell you first, like, it's just these little vial, essentially, and you just throw it back. You know, I think people are like, is this a powder?

Is this like, I just want to be really clear. It's like so simple and easy. You get these little tiny vials. They're very cute. And you're just going to take that before you go out. So I'll tell you about it. Their probiotic was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking.

Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's this byproduct, not dehydration that's to blame for your rough next day. Pre-alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. This is a proactive solution that wards off feeling miserable the next day instead of a reactive approach like drinking electrolytes or eating greasy food. Yeah, eating greasy food.

I mean, I know you want it and you crave it, but it's going to make you feel worse. So, yeah, I definitely trust this and take it. I mean, I'm just thinking like a big night, like a New Year's party or something like that. You know, just I remember taking it then or even on vacation. it's good because I feel like you just drink a lot on vacation and it could be like every night when you're not used to doing that. And so this is just going to help you feel better the next day. And if you have horseback riding the next day or a hike planned, you know, Rain is going to, she's going to be going so hard and her lace up corsets and her leather chaps.

And she's really going to take this. So she can get on that horse the next day literally. So you guys can join the movement of empowered women. Yes. Choosing Zbiotics for fresher and more productive mornings. Enhance your mornings with Zbiotics. Go to Zibiotics. dot com slash gge to get 15% off your first order when you use gg at checkout.

Zibiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee. If you're unsatisfied for any reason, they will refund your money, no questions asked. So remember to head to zibiotics.com slash gge and use the code ggat checkout for 15% off. Thank you Zibiotics for sponsoring this episode and our good times. So I've been wanting to pop off about this because it's an ongoing situation. But developing story.

Basically, I went home a couple weeks ago for my sister-in-lized baby shower. I hired a photographer. Her name is Taylor Olison. And I tagged her in the photos. She's great if you guys were looking for somebody in Pittsburgh. But I let her leave. I told her she could just bounce towards the end of the shower. And I forgot that my dad, Adriana's dad, Adriana's brother were coming.

So I didn't really get any professional photos with them. But like tons of people took photos of us. So I was just like, let me just source some iPhone photos from people. How bad could they be? I don't understand. And this is not a man problem specifically because it is women too. They are also the culprits. I don't understand the thought process behind

other people taking photos for you. If I hand you my phone, just take a picture. You don't need to change any of the settings. What do we do? Don't zoom in, don't zoom out. Don't put portrait mode on. Don't turn live mode on and tell me you've gifted me more options for the photo. What am I going to screenshot the blurry live mode?

No, I'm not. What's happening? Don't change any of the settings. Don't zoom in on my face. Don't change the angle. Don't take it from above or below. I don't need my legs looking. 300 pounds or my body looking like it's three pounds.

Just do exactly what I've handed you. I'll hand somebody to a camera and I'll say like, just take it exactly like this. The top of the frame should be this right here. Everybody thinks they're a photographer. You're not. No, I swear to God, you hand someone your phone and they think this is my moment. Yeah. When they turn it to be landscape, what are you doing?

I would have handed it to you like that. That's the number one thing people do. And that's fine if you want a landscape. photo. Hold it upright. If you are under 45 years old, how did this happen? Anybody that turns it to the side? I'm like, what are you doing? Obviously, I only want to put this on social media. This isn't for my memories. But hold it how I handed it to you. Exactly. How did we go from what I handed it to you to live mode, portrait, and zoomed in? It's just so crazy. Like, someone who's never taken a photography class who's never had an interest in photography, you hand them a phone and all of a sudden,

they're like, this is it. I'm Annie Leibowitz. Yes. Like, I'm going to make. this and they are wrong. People that take the phone and turn it diagonal, like they just drop the most fire artistic idea. I want this diagonal photo. Or like, again, it's not gender based. I think men are worse than most things, you know, when it comes to this. But they hold it up so high. Like, I know that we used to say in the early 2000s that like this was a skinny angle, but like we've moved on. I guess some people still want it. But I don't want it. When you come up high, why? I don't want it. It's too high, though. It looks ridiculous. It looks like a bobblehead. And also if you're a person who's like, well, I want to look really thin.

That's what FaceTunes for. Yeah, that's why God of a snap scene. We don't need to come up here. Yeah. What are you doing? I just, it makes me feel so crazy. And then once I get you my phone, exactly as I've decided that it's going to be, maybe think about the photo.

I don't want six feet of floor and I'm at the top of the photo. Maybe wait for people to stop talking and to make eye contact with the camera. Why do I have hundreds of photos where people are in the middle of a sentence? You just thought, now's my moment to take a photo. I'll wait for these people to be in the middle. middle of a conversation to take the photo. The framing is so crazy. I remember really early on, when I first moved to New York, my mom came to visit and I wanted to get these cute pictures of me. I was like in Times Square or whatever. And I had her take them. And I was like, I was trying

to be as nice as possible. I was like, so mom, do you see how like I'm at the top and then the whole bottom of the photo is the street, is the dirty street? That's what I'm saying. Too much ground. Yeah, too much ground. It's crazy, but I'm like, how do you not see that? I know. But it is a note that Like if someone's never thought about it, which again, you know, no shade to my mom. But like after that, she did learn and she was great now. You do have to say to people like, just look through the viewfinder and think about it. There's a viewfinder. It's a phone.

It's a giant screen. Just look through the view. Yeah. And just think about it. Yeah. And think about what would make a good photo and wait until I'm looking at you and not moving in the middle of a sentence and just do that. And Jeremy in Italy was taking on my photos. Jeremy, who's a photographer.

Listen, he's great at food. He's a great food photographer in videocer. people different subject matter. Jeremy was giving me so much runway below me of ground. I'm just like, he kept saying, well, it'll, it'll crop in on Instagram. No, this is already the crop. Yeah. Just frame it appropriately. A very male trait I find is that they just think they know best and they get some weird ego about it. Like when I went to, this was Jenny and Karen, we're in town. We went up to Seattle Farms and it's so beautiful. I mean, it feels like you're in Italy. It's this gorgeous winery. And we had this really cute server. And he, had like dropped some drinks or whatever. And I was like, can you get a picture? Like when you swing back around.

He was like, yeah, yeah. He was like, so cute. Like, he was kind of flirty with us. I was like he's going to be so excited to take this photo of us. You know, he seemed like a guy could tell him exactly what you do. And he was just going to like press the button. This man from the next table over here is this interaction. No.

Oh, I'll take it. I'll take it. His wife. He's so good. When a woman tells me their husband is so good. No, he's not. So I was like, oh, God. And like, I, like, I, the server looked back.

Like, he was upset. Like, he looked back. like, oh, I wanted to do it. Like, he looked back upset. And I was like, now you've upset this server. So he couldn't get up. I got it. I got it.

He's so good. You're going to die. He's going to so good. So I'm like, let's fucking see. Sure enough, turns it immediately landscape. I hated these photos so much. And I hated his energy. Just like, oh, girls, I got this.

It was crazy to me. I want to know what happened to those women all the time. But I will never hand a phone to a man. I'm always like, can you take this? I search out somebody again who looks like. like Tessa, who looks like a person who has been familiar with the internet and photos and TikTok. And when they go, he's better at it than me. I'm like, what happened to you? But every once in a while he is. It's rare. But sometimes it does happen. I think that happened to us at the lake where

the woman was like, he's better. And he did nail it. But that man, I felt so angry. His whole energy was just very like, men know best. You know, like I got this little girls. You know, and so sure enough, I was like, thank you. I thanked him. You know, I wasn't rude about it. And then as soon as that server came over, we got up again and he took the photos. And I was like, this is how it was supposed to go down. Yeah. The person who looks at this view every day. Yeah. Right. The photos were terrible. Zoomed in. Stop zooming. Why are people zooming? I'll zoom if I want to. I'll zoom. Later. Yeah. We saw a guy at Lake Louise and here's where you're going to get harassed. He had a camera

on. He was wearing a camera. So I think when people see a camera, they're like, you can take a photo. You have a camera on you. No. That's your street cred. And we asked, him and him and his wife laughed and I was like how many people have asked you he was like a lot and he took photos but he did not give a fuck and I posted one on Instagram and a carousel and the last photo was a zoom in of our face because we were not ready like oh that's who took that man who took it like I think he was like fuck you I'm done taking photos I'm like well then you shouldn't wear your camera around your neck no what were you asking for it yeah and it's just this is a highly contested viewpoint to the point that I was really surprised so the girl who painted me like naked last year. Camille Hunt in New York. She's great. She put up this TikTok and it was very funny. She's on vacation with her boyfriend on a hike at a lake or something and she's like, I want

you to look at the photo I took of you and take the same one of me. And the comments are really funny and I wrote like, it's crazy, yeah, like the fights this has caused on trips and like hundreds of people responded and they're fighting in the comments like can't you just be happy for the memory? Why is this so deep? And it's like, I don't

know. I went to this thing one time. It's important to me to capture it in a beautiful way that I can remember forever. Yeah, it's not more important to me than the memories and the fact that somebody did this with me and that's beautiful. But like, shut up. Like, I want a beautiful photo of this experience. Yes, and we're just ranting because it's fun to talk shit. You know what I mean? Yes, it's nice that strangers do this for you in the first place. Of course, I'm always appreciative.

Don't get a twisted. I'm always appreciative. And I've had great experiences, by the way. Like, I have great photos taken from strangers and they take yours, you take theirs. You know, we did this on our whole trip. We had a ton of these times. And I stopped this woman one time in Paris. I was solo and I wanted this photo in front of the Eiffel Tower.

And I took photos of her and her boyfriend. I mean, we had a whole photo. session. Yeah. So I've had great experiences too, but there's something when people, it's the energy of like, I know better and I'm going to Zoom and do all this crazy stuff. Framing, not everybody looks at a photo that way, but it's more

when you start doing stuff, your weird ego gets involved. That's what I have the biggest problem with. Also, these are the real villains of society. Beware of those people that are a little too confident because they are always the ones that are like, I'm going to put this in portrait mode and hold it up two feet higher than your head. People that are

like, yeah, I could do that for you. They're the ones to take fire ass photos. Although me, when somebody asked me, I'm like, you are so lucky. Like, I'll say that to them. Like, you're about to see Picasso paint this photo for you. But I take it really seriously. Like, I want you to have, like, especially in a place, like, Louise Eiffel Tower, like, whatever it is, like, I want to do right by you.

I'm treating you like, I would want to be treated. Take a look. You want me to go back in. If I don't have anywhere to be, I'll stay there all day. Me too. And I'm always the one that's like, move a little to your left. You're blocking this thing. Do you want to do anything else with your body?

Do you want me to turn the camera to the side? No one's ever said yes. Yes. I know what I hate to when people like, they like overact. They kneel down. And I'm like, I didn't ask you to kneel down. Like they just get too much into it. They're showing off.

So I have a whole camera roll for all of a thousand photos where everybody's in the middle of a sentence looking the other way. There's motion blur. Like I look like a different person in every photo because of the different angles and lighting you've captured. I think I need to find. a photo and do a montage of all the photos of me, me and Sparkalize, me and you, me and our girlfriends of me going like this while they're taking the photo. Because the number one thing

people do is turn it to the side and I am going like this as they're taking the photo to try to get them to turn it. There's so many photos of me going like this. And they never pick up on that hand motion. Why did they never pick up on the hand motion is what I don't understand? I'm always yelling so there's a verbal cue and a visual cue because my arm is outreach doing the thing. The Universal sign for turn that around. So many photos of me and you going, I mean, every day I have photo. But like, for some reason, they don't pick up on these cues. They're like, well, they're in the photo.

If it's someone older, fine. You know what I mean? Like, I give them all the, like, grace in the world. Like, as long as it's not some, you know, mansplainer who is over here, like, I got this, you know. But like, someone that's like my mom's age is like, you know, just like, she tried her best. Also, the other generation that you can't trust is Genzi. And here's why. because it's not cool to, like, just take photos, like, three girls, like, staying next to each other anymore.

It's very millennial, you know? Like, they all want to have, like, some action going on. You know, they always want, like, some motion blur and some action. Like, everyone's just, like, making a face and look in the other direction. Like, it's very millennial to just take a photo of, like, a bunch of girls standing together, just smiling at the camera. So, like, Gen Z probably does. They do turn it sideways because they're just, like, let's spice this up a little bit. I know, but the thing is, like, that's our culture from disposable cameras and not knowing what you were getting.

Like, they're trying too hard to. not make it look aesthetic, which is also fine. That's their culture. They don't want it to look aesthetic, but the trying to not make it look aesthetic is obvious that you tried. All my photos are posed photos. That's my whole grid. I'm a millennial. But then I like showing realness too and it not being so curated. I wouldn't say that you and I have this like so curated. You know, I think that's why people like that I posted that terrible photo of me and Sparkle-I's because it's like, that's a realness. Like I don't know that we're overly curated. I'm like, this is our life. This is what we look like. But I feel like my best photo shoot with a stranger was when I had that Uber driver

bring me up to the Home Alone house. And I wouldn't go with you. It was like out of Duncan and Addoken, something like because I put his name in the caption. Yeah, you don't want to go. You want to get a massage or whatever. We were performing in Chicago this is years ago. I was like, I got a stay at home alone house. And as we're driving up, I started kind of feeling him out. I was like, so when we get up there, do you think you'd be down to take some photos of me? Like, it was crazy. This Uber driver... He did a great job, though. Yeah, he did a good job.

Was it me or the Uber driver that took photos of you in front of those cactuses in Arizona that time? We made him pull over so I could take photos in front of cactuses. Because the whole trip, I didn't get any photos with cactuses

and we're on the way to the airport. And I was like, we have missed this opportunity. And so, yeah. I just listen, you can be happy for the memories if you want, whatever, like, we're different. And I think it's not weird

to say to somebody like, look through this thing, do it how I want it. This is the kind of photo I have. How many more times you're going to go back to Lake Louise? So like if I want it, I want it how I want it. Oh, and you know what I will say. What has been just a game changer for me is my little octo thing. I'm the only person left that doesn't have it. This is, I'm showing it on YouTube and I want to say Octobuddy. That's the brand. But the other brands make them. But you just get them on Amazon. But I like the Octobody. This is not an ad for them. This is like, you know, $8 to $12 or something. And so I'll post a photo that I took with this. There was a photo we took when I was on this boat in Boston. And, like, I just stuck this to the bar.

Like it doesn't stick on everything, but it sticks on most things. And I stuck it to like the bar ledge and then did like the front facing camera and got like an amazing photo. I used this all the time. Yeah. This is how I got my time lapse, like going down the gondola. I mean, whatever, hot take, but you can stick it on a mirror. I mean, whenever we're making content in my house, we stick it on that big mirror.

And it's just such a game changer. Like I think that's a great option if you are on a trip too. And it's like, yeah, you got to stick it to someone. something, but like better than whipping out a tripod. Like a lot of times you can find something to stick to. Can I tell you where Catalina Island? Jackie stuck that to somebody's car. To take a photo of us. I was like, Jackie, you can't be doing that. Like, it was somebody's truck and I'll be honest, the angle was pretty good. So she stuck into someone's truck. Someone's truck window. I was like Jackie, but also it looked pretty good. Someone's cyber truck. I feel like it's really, it's like

exploded in last few months. I feel like everybody we know how. Our friend uses it to take showers and FaceTime with her boyfriend. I know. She's so spicy. The spiciest. Okay. So I recommend that. I have so many of them because I want them to all match my cases because I'm doing like a burgundy case for fall.

I already have it. But I got to get the octobody for it. Oh, you've got a new case. Okay. I'm going to switch up. I'm not switching my color. Black Octobody. Burkney and black.

White would pop though. Let's talk. Clear. I don't want clear. All right. We'll see. Okay. I order two.

I get so much compliments on my red case. It's like red jelly. I got on Amazon for like a couple bucks. Yeah. But we're big fans of flaunt. We're flaunt. We like square cases. Well,

square case only. Have you ever tried to go back? It's like so embarrassing. Well, I really like burga is my favorite, like designs that they make. And some companies like put the name of their thing on it real big, which I hate.

I'm like, get out of here. Caseify or whatever. Yeah. It says it all over the case. Like you're Louis Vuitton. We don't need your name on this. Right.

Like Berga is really small, but they don't make square cases. And I'm just like, you make the most beautiful designs. can you help me here please help me help me yeah I'm a flaunt girlie and I it's kind of expensive like people get flaunt dupes on Amazon but I'm like I'm just willing to pay like I have some brand loyalty to them I love them flant if you're listening hit us up yeah no seriously I'm sick of paying for phone cases I get a new one every season okay all right guys well I'm gonna tell you

about skims oh my god I always feel like I'm writing to your book entry what can I say we just love it love it so much and I was saying to Rainer recently like I I feel like something that I don't have so much of is like good lounge clothes, but like not pajamas, like for when people come over. You know what I mean? Around the house outfits. You're hosting. You're having snacks yet. Around the house outfits.

That's so many. It's my whole personality. Yeah. And so that's just been something that I have solved with Skim's soft lounge. We'd love the soft lounge collection. It's just like so comfortable. And of course they make more than just like lounge clothes. I've talked about the soft lounge long slip dress.

And this is the most magical dress I've ever seen. Like it just shapes you. it's like so stunning and so sexy and so that long dress I posted on my Instagram and I'm such a fan of it. That dress I wore it with sambas in New York, but like, look at you know, Sambas, but like you could really dress it up too. Oh yeah. That's what I said before. Like you can dress it down with like a sandal or a sneaker or like you could wear to a wedding, I think, with like the right accessories and the right shoes. And then the soft lounge scoop onesie. I love this too. And this is just something that you can wear again, you around the house or just like put on sneakers. I mean, you could rock a heel with it like however you want to style it. the soft lounge tank and the soft lounge foldover pant this is just like a great set to wear around the house and like we love their tank tops and their pants i really love that foldover pan i just like it's

kind of like classic it's kind of like the pants style like wear it's a little nostalgic for me too and then the sleep sets rena's obsessed with the pajamas didn't you wear them to record a couple weeks ago you just like rock the pajamas yeah wore the black soft ones i just i'm always in them i'm always in their stuff and i always have their bras on their panties yes i know and i know i just joke that i don't wear underwear but I do wear underwear with like short skirts, you know, so those are the only one underwear I have. I don't have any other underwear. I threw everything else out. I really love their thongs, like with the lace on them and like these bright colors. I have like hot pink and red and they're just like really sexy. So we love everything that they do, especially that soft lounge collection. I didn't mention it's like this

ribbing material. I mean, it's magic. It really is. It's just like, I don't know what they put in that thing. But you can shop the Skims soft lounge collection at skims.com. Now available in size is extra, extra small all way up to 4x. And if you haven't yet, be sure to let them know we sent you. After you placed your order, select Girls Got to Eat in the survey and select our show in the drop-down many of the follows. It's easier than it sounds. It's just like a quick little drop-down and you guys are going to mark Girls Got to eat. We would really appreciate it to let them know that we sent you. Okay. And finally, you guys know that Ashley and I are literally always on the lookout for something that's going to strengthen our immunity and gut health, improve our fitness, metabolism,

enhance our hair and skin radiance. So we've recently discovered this incredible product, Armra Colostrum. I took it to Europe with me. I took it every single day. I took it to New York last week. It's just such an easy thing to incorporate into your routine. And Colostrum is the first nutrition we receive in life and it contains all the essential nutrients our bodies need in order to thrive. Armour Colostrum is a proprietary concentrate of bovine colostrum that harnesses over 400 living bioactive nutrients that strengthen the barriers of your body and fuel cellular health for thousands of research help back benefits. I mean, I just take this all the time. It's very simple, easy. There's tons of great benefits. So it reactivates your hair growth, a glowing skin. It stimulates

stem cells and collagen production. It fortifies gut health and ignites metabolism. It also fuels fitness performance and recovery. So you can harness the close guarded secret of the elite athletes. Long prize for their unrivaled ability to take performance to its apex. And we're going to tell you guys how to get it. We have worked out a special offer for our audience. Receive 15% off your first order. Go to tryarmra.com slash girls got to eat or enter girls got to eat to get 15% off your first order. That's T-R-M-R-M-R-A dot com slash girls got to eat. Okay, let's get into it. All right, guys, we are really excited to welcome this guest and this topic today. He is a licensed psychologist and Dean of Archer College of Health and Human Services and the president of the

Psychological Association of Greater West Texas. His research specifically is focused on pathological lying and deception. He has published multiple books, including pathological lying and big liars, what psychological science tells us about lying and how you can avoid being duped. Please welcome to the show, Drew Curtis, PhD. Thank you so much. That's a great pleasure to be here. Yeah, we're so excited to have you. I really was just, like Raina had said earlier before we start recording just in bed last night with your book, learning how to be a good liar. No. Did you practice some of that?

Well, Ashley always tells me she's on her way and I know that's a lie. Oh, yeah. I guess I lie every day. Yeah. So you still have some more practice to do. But I felt very validated and that everyone lies every day. Let's run the stats on that. Yeah, for sure.

You know, I think some of the comfort is knowing, you know, that most people across the world throughout history, you know, have lied. You know, when I think, I think real interesting, you know, this dynamic of when we think about liars, it's like, you know, we're all liars, but we don't like to think of ourselves that way. But yeah, there can be some validation to know that, you know, others have done similar things that we've done for sure. I love that because I posted on my Instagram, I was reading your books at this coffee shop and I post on my Instagram, what questions do you guys have about lying? And I thought the questions would be a little different. Most of them were like, when is it okay to lie? Are white lies okay? How often do people lie? Is it a cool if I lie? Like, I didn't really expect that. Because it cool if I lie. I mean, yeah, and we'll get into all of that. And we consider ourselves very honest people that don't lie to our friends and family besides, you know, I'm on the way. And you know what? Most women are always lying when they say that. But that's why I had to stop sharing location with Raina. But we want to hear about what made you want to go into this.

So as you mentioned, I'm a licensed psychologist. So I had done my PhD work in counseling, And what really got me interested in this was I was working with a patient. And this is a patient who had been seeing me for basically he had been cheating on his girlfriend. And she found out that he was cheating through text messages. So kind of a last ditch effort to save the relationship. He wanted to prove to her, okay, I'm sorry, I'm going to make amends. I'm going to do everything I can to get you back. So I'm going to go to counseling. And so I was about the second. session with this individual. And he says to me, he says, I never lie. And I was caught off guard. I was surprised. I was thinking, you never lie. Isn't that the reason you're here? You're here because you were

cheating on your girlfriend and lying about it and she caught you. That's all that was going through my mind. But I was just so caught off guard. I was in my training. I didn't know what to do. I thought I was going to be smart. And I said something like, you never lie, not even right now. And he said, no, without missing a beat, no. And so that, I didn't know how to handle that at the time. So I took that back to my supervisor class, peers. And I said, what do we do in clinical context? Because for most therapists, you know, we assume that people are going to come see us.

They're going to pay money and they're going to be completely honest about their woes and trauma and hardships and so forth. But that's not the case. So what do we do? And that conversation with my professor and fellow students lasted no more than two minutes. There really wasn't what do we do. So that piqued my interest. I wanted to dig into this area and see specifically at the time, how do we deal with this in therapy? But more broadly, how does it affect people beyond therapy?

It is interesting. Cheaters will say, like, I only lied once. It's like, well, you lied hundreds of times. But then I was going to ask you, I didn't know if this was the point you were getting to because this is in the book, too, of was he a liar or was he technically always telling his girlfriend the truth when he was like, no, because you had this thing in the book that's like talking about different types of lies and lies by omission. And the one example is so blunt. And it says this guy telling his girlfriend, she's like, what did you do last night?

And he was like, I just hung out on the couch and watched TV. And then it says, except you called your ex over and you had sex. So technically he didn't lie. He did just hang out and watch TV. But his ex also came over. Someone sucked his dick. Yeah. So it's just, but that guy, just to close the loop on him, was he just a liar?

And he was lying to you and he'd been lying to his girlfriend. And that was kind of the whole situation there. Well, yeah, back to that, you know, is he a liar? Kind of what you said, that when we think about, this is something I've been real fascinated about when we think about when we've been lied to, we think about times people lied to us. They are liars. You know, they're horrible people. They're bad people that have hurt us. But when we put the shoe on the other foot, the perspective is real important.

When you think about you lying in your relationships, why do you do it? We don't tend to think of ourselves as horrible liars. We think, well, I did it for some good reason for protecting the relationship to spare someone embarrassment or some good reason rather than when others lie to us. They're just horrible people. So was he a liar? Yes, to the extent that we all are liars, right? We all have lied.

If all of us telling at least one lie, makes us a liar, then we're all liars. In that moment, though, why I guess I was surprised because, you know, it seemed like a disconnect where he was saying the reason he came to kid help was because of his lie. Yet when I ask him about lying, he says he doesn't do it. And I was like, well, how do I deal with that discrepancy? It's like, you can clearly do it and that's why you're here. But you're not admitting that to me or yourself in this moment, I think was the harder part. The other part you had about the omission, you know, most deception researchers, including myself, we would say, you asked, is it a lie if you, you know, a girlfriend is saying, what did you do last night and you

leave out information? Those, we would call those lies of omission. So anything that's not telling the truth would be deceptive, would be a lie. You know what you're doing, and that's the intention. And obviously intention is a big part of it, which you talk about in the book. That's right. That's the most important part is intent, that you're intentionally trying to make someone believe something you don't believe to be true for sure. So maybe that answers my question, which is like, let's talk about white lies and people that kind of lie a little bit here and there to save somebody's feelings versus like compulsive pathological lying, like to actually classify somebody as that. Like women. Women tell altruistic lies and they don't want to hurt people's

feelings and men are more deceptive. It's in the book. Yeah, I know I want to talk about like who lies and what they lie about. But what, like when somebody says like this is a pathological compulsive liar like how do you categorize that yeah that's you know that's been my more specific interest in research and this is one thing that i think the scientific community has been behind the the popular culture you know we talk about pathological lying and it's almost present in pop culture specifically when you think about elections and presidential elections and so forth pathological lying compulsive lying pops up uh psychological and scientific community, it's been pretty sparse. In fact, there's not, as of yet,

a diagnosis in the DSM for pathological lying. So the work I've been doing with Chris Hart is largely trying to get that recognized. And in sum, your question is, what's the difference? Pathological liars are those who tell excessive lies more than the general population. So typically on average, 10 lies a day. Their lies are causing them impairment and functioning. So it's causing them problems with relationships, sometimes occupations. It's causing them pain, distress. They don't like the fact that they feel the need to lie so often. And typically, it's putting themselves or others in danger. And so it's doing all that to an extent that doesn't look like the normal population or what we'd call normative lying. Yeah. And I like, I think we probably

overuse that word, like a lot of words we misuse or overuse. And I like that you broke it down. on the book, it kind of has to fall under these, like, four categories. Like, pathological is a pretty heavy word. So, I mean, people could be encountering that or not, but I think more often than not, the things that we want to talk about are probably not people that are, like, pathological liars. Yeah. But I like bringing it up and I especially like talking about it in terms of an election year. Well, you know, the other fascinating thing about pathological lying, when we typically think relationships, we think about people that lie to us over and over again, which could be a pathological liar. But I think what I've found is many times we think of pathological liars as these

con artists that are manipulative. They're working their way to, you know, we're talking about briefly having multiple sexual relationships or multiple partners. And they're constantly calculating the next liar, the next scheme. But that's not what we typically see with pathological lying, that it's not that much forethought. In fact, a lot of its absence of forethought that gets them into trouble. Okay. That's interesting. Yeah, it's just in the moment. Like, I'm going to lie about this thing. Yeah. And I think what we've seen in our circles is just this incessant line because you've kind of dug yourself into a hole you can't get out of. Like, they start to compound. Do you see that? I mean, it's just, you know, I'm thinking of someone we know. And it's like, all the lies are around this relationship that it just feels as though this person can't, like, write this ship where it's the, you know, they've gone too far down that path.

Yeah, there's a clinical psychologist, Jordan Peterson. And he called this the hydra hypothesis, the mythological character, the hydra, that you know, you cut off one head and several grow back. And I've written about this and found this in my research that what happens is lies beget lies. And you'll find with pathological liars, typically they'll tell a seemingly innocuous lie, like something like, what did you have for breakfast? And they say a banana instead of cereal or something like that.

And then they have to build upon that. That's right. And they're like, why did you lie about that? That's inconsequential. But then they tend to grow. You know, they now have to keep that lie up. And in one of the cases that I worked with, an individual started lying about feeling ill, which then perpetuated into missing school, which then going to doctor visits, which then became two years of therapy with a psychotherapist, all of this on a small lie that was seemingly inconsequential. yeah, you'll see that where lies will grow into bigger lies and more and more. So I'm really, I do want to talk about who lies and I want to circle back to like genders and different kinds of jobs and things like that. But like when somebody has this characteristic that they lie and they build upon the lie, do you see across the board are these people, and I know it's probably very varied, very varied, but like do these people live in anxiety at all times that one domino is going to topple the whole pyramid? Or is this just

become so comfortable of a way to live for so many people that they don't even know what's the truth and the lie anymore. just like, I'm going to exist. There is a high level of anxiety to mention your point. In fact, what happens is in a social relationship, the person's feeling anxiety. And when they tell a lie, it actually reduces their anxiety in the moment. So it makes them feel more comfortable. The lying does.

But hours later, they tend to feel remorse or they'll ruminate thinking, oh, why did I lie about my breakfast choice? So they do feel guilt. And that's where it's not this cold calculated, heartless person. You know, they'll feel guilt. Why did I lie about that? your other question, what was the last part of what you're asking? I'm just wondering sort of the character traits of people like this.

Does it become so commonplace that like the truth and the lies sort of just run together? Run together. And they're just like, this is how I'm living. Do they know? Based on the definition of deception, you do know because it's intentional. So you know you're lying and you know you're telling other people lies. In fact, pathological liars, you know, if they spend more lies on top of lies, eventually they'll admit, yeah, that was, I was lying about all that. So if you put them into a corner, they do know that they're lying. I have to ask you this. Why are you lying about what you have for breakfast? Like, what is going on there?

Because we know some people like this. And A, why? And B, if you're newly dating that person or newly friends with that person, should you run? Like, is this a red flag? Like, I find it so outside my comprehension. There's no reason. Like, what is that? Yeah, yeah.

It surprises a lot of people. In fact, if you were to ask people pathological liars, why did you lie? about that, many of them would say, I don't know why I did. But our research has found that typically they experience some anxiety when they're asked these questions. And they almost impulsively say something. Our recent research has found that adolescent pathological liars have a deficit in executive functioning. So they're not forecasting the future. They're kind of impulsively responding without thinking about the consequence. Right. If I asked you to get out your phones and I asked you to go on your favorite social media app. And I want you to post this status or tweet or

whatever saying you just found out you have cancer. You would probably get more attention than any other posts. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. You'd probably get tons of attention. But most of us don't do that because we forecast, right? We forecast that the consequences of being caught in this lie is going to be worse than the attention we receive. And it feels. morally wrong, not just like I might get caught. It feels like deep inside, that's wrong. The moral aspects, all of it, right? So if you're in adolescence, you're having the limbic system and specifically for pathological liars, that deficit and kind of thinking through the future or thinking about moral, moral aspects of it, you're acting impulsively without thinking those things through. Right. So most of us,

as we age into adult, we tend to tell less lies because we can think there's other ways for us to get attention. We don't have to post these false things. So we're thinking through conversation that the, you know, the truth is going to work out fine or we don't need to lie to get what we want. So maybe when you lie about the breakfast, like whether you realize it or not, the lie was just a better answer for whatever reason in your head. It was just the answer you wanted to give. Sure. Yeah. Or that it reduced the anxiety. You just said it in the moment with almost that lack of forethought of, it's not a planning calculated. I'm going to say this instead of that. It's just I'm going to say this. And I do like in the book, how you talked about, you do outgrow some of this. Like, we both lied more in high school. They flew off the tongue. You know, like I did so many things I'm not proud of. And you just, you grow up and you can't recognize that person. And that's probably good for parents to hear who are like, oh my God, am I like raising this fucking compulsive liar? And it's nice to know that like kids lie, teenagers lie. And you just should outgrow it.

Yeah. You mentioned morally too. So think about. if you're responding about cereal or what you had for breakfast, that's not really calculating on your moral radar of, well, this is a big moral wrong. I shouldn't do it. So it's going to have less of a concern there. I'm fascinated by people that have that relationship to the truth, that you can just let this lie leave your body. And I was involved with somebody who just lied about everything. And it would be dumb stuff. Like, he would say, like, I'm sick. I stayed home today. And I would, like, have seen on his Instagram story, he went skiing today. And watching him lie directly to my face was such a crazy experience because I was like, I'm like watching the face of evil.

I still continued to be involved with this person. Evil was attractive, huh? Yeah. That's we all have problems. But it's crazy to watch those lies leave somebody's body and you're like, you just don't feel in your body the way I do when I tell a lie. The way that I feel in my body, the anxiety, it's overcoming. I could never do that, you know? Now, is that true even if you think you're telling a white lie or a lie for someone else's

benefit. Lies for other people's benefit. I mean, I just, I don't think you have to tell the truth about everything all the time, no matter what. I think, you know, there's nuance to it. If you're going to save somebody's feelings and telling them the truth wouldn't bring anything positive to their life, I can understand lying about something like a white lie, but it's every situation is sort of like a one size fits one type of thing to me. Yeah, I think the haircut is the number one example. It's just like someone got a bad haircut and they can't go back and change it. So you just tell limit looks fine to spare their feelings. I'm glad you mentioned haircuts. What do you think of mine? Oh, we. This is Rayna's whole big, big bald guy fan. Yeah. She's done so much for the bald community.

Yeah, I really have. I really have encouraged so many women to sleep with bald guys. So you're welcome. Thanks for that white lie. So no, we know seriously. No, I really like it. Can we just talk about like personality traits of somebody who is predisposed to lying? Because I think you break it down into five personality traits. The dark triad usually is what pops up. up. And so these are individuals who tend to pop more on what we call narcissism, individuals who pop more on psychopathy, individuals who are going to be more consumed with themselves and really less regard for others. Personality is only one facet of some of this. So when you think about lying, really, there's aspects of people that are going to be more prone to be those calculated

liars. But if we're thinking about the general population, it's going to be more about the situation you're in. Right. And we want to talk about why people, people lie, especially in, you know, romantic relationships and why is someone lying all the time? If you look at why people lie broadly motivations to deceive, pretty interesting that people lie for the same reasons that people tell the truth. One of the researchers, you know, suggested kind of one of the prolific researchers in deception, Timothy Levine, he suggests people lie when they think the truth won't work. And I added to that, and I think people lie when we perceive that the truth won't work. So if you think about the times in your lives when you've lied,

you thought, if I tell the truth, it's going to cause embarrassment, discomfort, relational turmoil, whatever that may be. And so you choose to lie because you think the truth won't work. Or it'll be easier for you. Yeah. And so that's the forecasting where you're predicting that the lie is going to be better than the truth for most of us, except for the pathological liars. right now now the only problem with that is humans are not very good at predicting the future so sometimes the truth may actually work better and so I suggest that's where it gets us into trouble especially in relationships I think the truth always is better I don't lie you know besides you know the occasional like day-to-day stuff that everybody does because I want to treat people how I want to be treated I don't want to be

lied to so I don't lie I mean that's kind of the golden rule of life but I I also just think the truth always comes out. I really firmly believe that, whether it's the next day or a year down the road. Like, it's a crazy mindset to really think you're going to get away with it. I guess some people do. I guess some people really do get away with their lies. But to me, I'm like, the truth always comes out eventually. So why not start with that?

But most of us don't start with that, right? We're talking about dating. When you look at when we tend to lie, most people lie more early. on in relationships than you do in close intimate relationships. So you're going to exaggerate features of yourself when you're dating much more than you're going to reveal who you are. And that comes with time, right? So that's that three to seven month mark when you're in a relationship. And if it doesn't stay together, it's because you become who you are and less lies. You're, this is who I really am and this is who the person really is. And so you decide yes or no. But yeah,

significantly most lies are told up front. And a lot of those reasons for impression management, right, that we're trying to facilitate an impression. And men and women do it differently because they're after different goals. Let's talk about that. Page 130 in your book. So I notated it. But what do men lie about versus women and what's the motivations and what is the crossover? Because there's quite a bit of crossover as well. Some of the research and psychology that looks at this talks about mate selection, right? That men and women are after different things. you go just to basic biological needs. So men tend to deceive more about commitment, long-term commitment, that they want that

and having more resources, money, and so forth, whereas women tend to be a little more deceptive about youthfulness and appearances, physical appearances. Okay. And I find it interesting that you said that three to seven month mark, because I read this stat, I don't know where it came from so many years ago, that you can kind of pretend to be someone else essentially for three. three months and then it really doesn't work past that. I just think that's interesting. That you could do it at the beginning, like you said, like it's really heavy on the beginning

and then you get found out. And also I feel like three months is when we start to like really socialize with a partner as friends and those lies are easier to be checked. And so it becomes a little harder, I think, to lie. But do you find, is there a crossover between what men and women tend to lie about in the beginning of a relationship? Well, yeah, it's about some of that, right, that men might be early on exaggerating resources or money. I have all these things. I'm only looking for one person for the rest of my life, any kind of status, commitment, resources. And whereas women, typically the deception is going to be more the physical appearance or youth. So maybe highlighting aspects, makeup, clothing, things that present a certain image

about what they're after. And so interestingly, though, I've done some research with some colleagues years ago, women at least have adapted. We don't know, I haven't studied men, but women are suspicious when men talk about money or commitment on dates early on. So if you're on a first date, second date, early dates, and men talk about, they start flashing all the money, cars, pictures of resources, things they have, and they start saying, I want to be with just one person, one special person, that's where women become most suspicious. So even though men deceive about that, women counter that with suspicion. In fact, women are least suspicious if men talk about we call non-mate value thing.

So on a first date, if I say I really like tacos, women are going to be least suspicious about that because I'm not talking about my commitment or money. We know that you like tacos and you're lying about wanting to be in a relationship. That's just history. Yeah, exactly. And you might you might guess too, women are also least susceptible if the pendulum's the other way. men say, well, I don't have any money and I only want a one-night stand. Women are going to be least suspicious, but probably least inclined to continue the relationship. That's a tactic. So I guess my big question is like, how can you trust someone that lies? Like, that's the big thing

with cheating. You know, like, how could I ever trust them again? But even if it was early on, even if they lied about something early on and then you're in a relationship with them and you're committed and you find out that they lied about that thing early on, are you like, oh, my God, they're a liar. How could I ever trust this person? Because he's, he's a lie. I'm here we are in one hand saying everybody lies, you know, some more than others, some bigger than others. In the book, there's a distinction of like an average person and then a big liar, right? But can people just deceive their partner and have an affair and then go back to being an honest relationship? I mean, I think that's everybody's concern.

It's like, how can I trust someone once they've lied more than a little white lie? Let me kind of go broad and shed and make sure I get back to this trust issue that you're talking about if I don't get there. But I think it's, you know, it's important that we remember, while everyone has lied, most people do not lie often, right? So I think this hope optimism is that most people, in fact, within a 24-hour period, most people tell zero lies. So really, the default position of people is honesty. Most people are pretty honest most of the time. Some of what I research with Chris Hart is those who aren't. So the big liars, the pathological liars. Those are the exceptions, though. That's not the majority of people. So it's good to keep that in mind that most people are honest most of the time. And so that helps us, too, when we come across a deception, you ask this question about what if someone lies about cheating or what if someone lies about something in a relationship,

what do you decide to do? Relationally, the other thing to know here broadly is that we talked about dating. And the research really indicates that people, when they do lie, they tell more lies early on when they're dating and many fewer lies when they're in closer intimate relationships. But is that because it becomes harder to do so? Twofold, right? That it is harder to do so. And it actually shifts. You're talking about lies of omission. So when I'm dating, I'm more likely to lie about, you know, my favorite music is this, falsifications. As you become more intimate in relationships, because what you're

saying, it's harder to do so. People are, when they lie, they tell more lies of omission. So they just leave out information. So it's harder to do so. The other part is really the consequence. You're talking about morality and consequence. So if you're in a close relationship, you know that if you lie, it's going to weigh heavier on what you've invested into that relationship than if you're on a first date. So the consequence is bigger.

And not just even in an intimate relationship. Think about friendships. You're less likely to lie to close friends than you are people you just met. Because the toll that. it will take on that relationship. All right. So now the problem, though, is when we do lie in intimate or close relationships, the lies tend to be of greater magnitude. So there are things like you talked about infidelity or finances or something, some bigger transgression. With trust clinically and research, really the hardest thing to recover is if a transgression is coupled with a lie. Not if you

confess what you did necessarily gets you off the hook. I don't want anyone. want to think, you know, you did this, you need to come clean and everything's perfect. But typically, if you lied about a big transgression and you're caught, it's harder for the other person to regain trust. But it's still possible. And how it works clinically, how I've seen it, though, it's something like, I gave you the example of the gentleman earlier in the clinic. You know, he said, look, I'm not cheating. I'm not doing these things anymore. Why doesn't she just believe me? It's on her terms now. So you now have to prove through your behavior over time that she's willing to trust you again. And that comes all on the other person's time when they're willing to do that. You know,

but it's not, you'll typically find that in relationships. People say, hey, I did this thing. I lied. I'm sorry. It'll never happen again. And they may be sincere. But it's the other person that has to say when they're ready to start trusting you. I guess it could go either way. I mean, it's just, that's the big question of like, is this who you are? Does this define you? You know, if you lied to my face every day for however long because you were cheating or you were doing this or financial infidelity, those types of things, is that just your personality? You know, like I'd love to see the stats and like, does that guy, for example, never do it again? And I don't know the answer, but that is the question I think everybody asks themselves, you know, and I guess you have to get to the root of

the problem. Why did they cheat? Were there other issues in the relationship? I mean, that's what we've said before. Like the cheating, I think for women, it's the lying that it's harder for them to get past sometimes than the act of the infidelity sometimes. Yeah. If you lied about this, what else am I being duped about? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. To me, like, infidelity is almost this outlier to lie. It's like it can be situational and in sort of a box of like, well, we've been together for 10 years and things are stale and we're horrible to each other and we don't have a sex life and I met somebody at work. You know, I can see that. I can see the road to that. It's almost the people that make me a little more uncomfortable is in the beginning of a relationship,

a collection of little lies that make me very uncomfortable. And I mentioned that person before who I did not go on to have a relationship with. So I made a joke about it, but I can't ever actually see myself being in a relationship with somebody who even like says that they went to the grocery store, but really they went to the gas station. Like if you're comfortable with little lies to the point that like, I'm not sure why you're doing this. It just seems like fun to you. Those people scare me more than somebody who has an affair and it actually could be an isolated incident, even if you told a hundred lies around that affair. Does that make sense? Yeah, for you, is it that you don't understand why someone would tell the lies? But if you understand,

that makes it a little more acceptable. It seems like what you're saying. Yeah, I mean, I understand why people lie about cheating. There's a benefit to it. It's really nuanced and layered. We've had Esther Perel on the show a couple of times. We really talked to her in depth about cheating and it's a great episode. But yes, little lies in the beginning where I'm like, I don't know what the benefit here was. Are you lying about a banana? Yeah. Like what, like what is wrong with you that that sentence left your mouth? I also think probably it is someone's level of guilt and remorse. I mean, I would really be, if this were me and I got cheated on and lied to, like, I would need to believe on a deep level that lying to me all these times really ruined your life, like that you feel so,

much remorse and guilt surrounding it that I can trust that you have some moral compass and that this has affected you so badly that you won't do it again and that's the motivation for not doing it again. Like if someone is just like, that was the worst. I felt terrible every day. I was sick over it and that makes you not want to do it again. It's the old cliche, right? Fool me once. Full me twice, right? Shame on me. We maybe were willing to tolerate being fooled once, but some of what you said, we don't want to be lied in other areas or this to happen again, right? That then it's shame on me because now I know. And there's this really interesting phenomenon that's deemed, you know, we're talking about lying in relationships and lying

necessarily has to happen in relationships. It's between, you know, people, at least two or more people. And there's this phenomenon called the ostrich effect. When you discovered that maybe if someone lied to you, you start looking back through all your relationship history and you start thinking, how did I ever get duped? Or what else did they lie? So throughout history of the relationship. But the ostrich effect is that sometimes we're willing to stick our head in the sand and able to not, you know, willingness to not know if we're being lied to or we may accept that we might be lied to and just don't want to know because we want to assume things are going as they should. And And so that's on part of the other person saying, well, I really don't want to know if you're doing X, Y, and Z. So I'm not even going to ask you about that.

Yeah, I mean, you see that with wives of athletes. And I understand that there is a benefit to putting your head in the sand, you know, quote unquote, it's different. You've children. You've built a community with this person. You financially rely upon them. I mean, we have all the sympathy in the world for somebody that has been backed into a corner and has to deal with these type of things. Should we talk about how you can detect a liar? I mean, I think our audience. audience is going to be like, well, how do I know? And I don't think it's one simple black and white answer, but at least just discuss it a little bit because I found really interesting in the book that you said, good liars act like how they think an honest person acts. Like, they will employ certain tactics like eye contact and staying calm and not looking around and there's various things, but that's not even necessarily how honest people act. I just found that very fascinating. Like, they're playing the part of an honest person. It's Halloween.

Yeah, the cosplay, honesty. So anyway, I found that interesting. And you guys can read the book and read all that. But we do want to talk about, are there tells? Is there anything we can do? For me, it's evidence-based. You know, I'm looking at the receipts and I'm running the tape on things, and I'm actually going to gather the evidence. But when you're in conversation, you know. Yeah, you make a good point. How do you know if someone's a liar? I say if they're older than two and a half years of age, they're a liar. So we're all liars if we're three years or older. But to your point of, How do you know if someone's lying? What you pointed out, evidence is really important.

A lot of researchers, myself and others, will do these laboratory studies where we record people on screen and they're either prompted to lie or tell the truth about questions. And then we bring our research participants in. They watch these videos and they have to determine, is that person lying or not lying? And there's tons of research that's done it this way and looked at these laboratory studies. and we find that there's no what we call Pinocchio's nose. There's not one behavioral indicator that changes when someone lies. But interesting, to your point about evidence, what we find is how people actually detect deception

is not how we typically do it in the labs here at the universities, you know, research labs. How people typically detect deception is exactly what you said, getting evidence, you know, or like the person I talked about earlier that his girlfriend took his phone and found, these text messages. So most of the time when we find out if people are lying, we usually have some evidence that is discrepant from what they said. So we have evidence. That's one way. Another way,

you talked about morality is many times, you know, people might feel their conscience eating on them and they'll just confess, you know, hey, hey, what's going on? What's up with you? You seem, you know, so they may confess. I'm sorry, I lied about this. And usually those are the two ways that we typically discover deception from the evidence, from confession, or kind of a mix of those things. That's how it happens in real life rather than these deception research studies where you're trying to look at behavioral cues and if people shift their eyes or shift their hands. That's so true. And also, if you're telling the truth about something that is embarrassing or you feel might hurt someone's feelings, you are going to get awkward and weird. I mean, to hard conversations that are truthful

are when you're the most awkward, when you are avoiding eye contact, when you're doing weird stuff. So in the book, and like you just said, like the bottom line is that's not what to look for. I mean, how many people have been lied to and they obviously bought it in the moment. They didn't think twice and it's like they found something later, you know, and also someone's track record. We hear this all the time. I mean, let's say there's a woman, for example, every other person in her orbit has said, that guy's a liar.

He's the worst. Don't trust him. And you go into the relationship anyway. And lo and behold, he's a liar. You know, I think it's kind of evidence with what you already know about someone to be true. And again, people who are good liars have mastered the art. So there is no like watch their eyes, watch their hands about it. And I find that actually really comforting almost that there isn't like one or two tells because I think when you actually are in a relationship of somebody and you realize

that they are a liar, that this thing was a lie and you start unweaving the web. And because this wasn't true, this isn't true, and this isn't true, it's tremendously deregulating. And you say to yourself like, How am I so stupid? How did I let this go on for so long? I think there's a ton of self-blame that comes along with all this line of like, am I such an idiot? And I think it's almost comforting to say, like, this person's set out to lie to you. And it's normal and healthy to believe that people are honest in telling you the truth and they care about you and that it benefits them to have a moral compass. And so I guess it's comforting to know, like, there's no way to figure this out.

You just have, like, time and evidence. Yeah. And, you know, all the things you said about. feeling those emotions when you're duped are what most people feel you know they they self-doubt blame am i not a good judge of character but you know i think that's the better position to hold than assuming everyone's lying all the time i mean that's a hard one if you really think about assuming everyone's out to get you that that's a hard cognitive space to take up and i think it's a hard life to live if you're thinking people are always out to lie against you so when you take the two you have to

kind of take the risk of getting duped, which thankfully, once again, most people are honest most of the time. So it's these exceptions where we're looking at that. One other point you mentioned about the hard, awkward emotions, you know, I make the case. We talked about earlier predicting that the truth won't work is why we lie. I think most people, if you're willing to have awkward conversations, you can engage, you know, how do you model honesty? And sometimes it is hard to tell someone you don't like their haircut because it can be awkward. I'll tell you a story about my son, my oldest son. When he was five, we bought him a beta fish. Long story short, accidentally, the water was too cold when I changed it and the fish died. And I remember my wife and I having this

conversation in the morning when we woke up to a dead fish, what do we do? Do we lie to our son? And I run to the pet store quickly and get him a new fish. Yeah, or do I tell him the truth? And at the time I'd been studying parental deception and found that parents who were perceived as most honest had the highest relational satisfaction from their kids. So I said, well, let me try this honest thing. You know, I'm just going to tell him what dad did and accidentally, you know, murdered his fish and see where it goes from there. And then psychologist in me, I'm like, oh, opportunity to talk about death. And this will be great. So I talked to him and I said, you know, here's what happened. I'm sorry.

And here's what we can do. And without missing a beat, my wife thought he was going to be, you know, scarred, hurt, upset. Without missing a beat, he said excitedly, let's go to the pet store and get a new fish. Like he was not traumatized. He wasn't bothered. But I think we may talk ourselves out of dealing with awkward or potentially awkward conversations with people where we can be honest. And we tell ourselves the lie is going to be better when it may not be, right? we might want to have those hard, difficult, even if it ends up being a difficult conversation,

there may be, I would argue, greater reward in that with the honesty. I support that wholeheartedly. I'm thinking of just a couple times in my life. I'm not going to tell the stories now where I was like, do I tell this person? I mean, one, I think if this was so long ago, I had one person who I snooped on. I went into his email and I found this thing. And I was just like, do I tell him or not? Calling him and telling him, I was shaking, you know.

It was so difficult. And I just think he appreciated the honesty so much. It's a really hard thing to tell someone you did. I mean, it was my fault. I did it. But it's just it made us stronger. Yeah, I mean, he started it. But, you know, it's just those, I'm thinking of a couple other instances where you're

like petrified. I mean, and I are not people who really suffer from a lot of anxiety. So even someone who does suffer from anxiety, I can't even imagine. I mean, you are literally shaking at the thought of confessing this thing or having this tough conversation. and I've never once not come out better on the other side, but I've also never had to tell someone like, I cheated on you.

I've been having an affair. So there is that. But it just, it's always the best option, I think, but, you know, hot take,

honesty. Yeah, I don't know. I just, it feels bad in my body when I feel a lie, leave my body. And I guess there's instances where, like,

the truth won't change the outcome. So if you're like, I went through somebody's email, I saw that they were cheating on me with all these people. And you're like, I'm leaving them anyways. So I don't, I don't need to get into a moral discussion about whether I should have gone through your emails or not.

It's like, I caught you. This is over. Bye. But I don't know that every situation is like that, you know? Well, that's an interesting situation is a couple that breaks up, let's say a man breaks up with a woman for a multitude of reasons. And he cheated before somewhere along the lines, even if it was a year or two prior or whatever. It was in the past. And do you share that?

And I am kind of of the mindset of I'm all set. If we're broken up, I don't need to know that too. I'm like, I don't, you don't need to dump that on me too. You know, it hurts, you know, and I think that's what you see a lot is, is this just going to hurt somebody for no reason? I mean, I think sometimes people confess to get it off their own chest at the expense of someone else's pain. That's right. What's the intent? Is the intent to like further open the wound or?

Or is it self-gratifying? You know, if it's done, why didn't you confess that earlier in your relationship? Oh, you would to get it off your chest? Like, I'm fine. Yeah. Like, why do I need this? Why do I be upset? But some people, I wouldn't agree with me.

Like, some people would be like, no, absolutely. I want to know that. So that's personal. But I'm curious what you would say about, like, once a liar, always a liar. Can these people change? Because I have a girlfriend, for example, that said she had been dating this guy for a couple months and he admitted to her that his last relationship he'd had an affair. And she never went out with him again. She was just like, that's a liar, that's a cheater. And I don't

subscribe to that necessarily. I think it's sort of what you said previously. How do they feel and speak about the cheating? What is their reaction to it? So I'm curious, can people change and should we give people a chance when they sort of say something like this? Yeah, well, you're asking a psychologist, so I'm optimistic. I think people can change. And I've seen change. You know, really it's about people's motivation. And I think that's the harder part. Their motivation to change with relationships. relationships, it's harder because both parties have to be willing to change together in that. So if one person's already closed the door, that's the hardest thing. I mean, it's probably not going to be an opportunity. But if both parties recognize that we do want to change and it may be a long road or hard road or something like that, but both are in it. Yeah. So it comes down to motivation. What's the motivation? And you've talked about, you know, I caught someone one time and I'm done with them. I've worked with pathological liars who are telling excessive lies constantly. And even there, there's hope for change.

And even their significant others realize that they lie frequently, but are willing to work with them. You know, through therapy. One of the ways I mentioned is, you know, modeling. Instead of lying, let's have tough conversations about the truth. And that's what you can do in therapeutic context. So seeking out a therapist, you can do that. opportunities to have those conversations together. And I think that can grow a relationship stronger. Like when you can deal with hard, awkward, uncomfortable things together with a conflict

resolution, that's going to make your relationship stronger. But you have to want that, right? So some people say, uh, nope, this person or whatever, this isn't worth it for me. So I'm done. But if you want it, I think definitely there's hope for change. Yeah. So if somebody is just a liar and they're unwilling to admit to you, if you're sitting here saying, I know this is not the truth, and they're unwilling to cop to the behavior, there really is nothing you can do with that person. The door is just closed to the truth. Yeah. If they're not willing to change, then that's probably the bigger issue.

That's right. And that's relationships in general, right? If you're not willing to make changes, then. Like you said, I like your point. Like some people, this could have been their default. Maybe their parents were liars. You know, maybe tough, honest conversations have been something they've avoided their whole, life, they have to understand how to have them and that it'll be okay. I'm not like in defense of

pathological liars. No, but like being a people pleaser. Yeah, like they're so avoidant of those tough, honest conversations that it takes practice and a willingness to learn to have them. That's right. And in, you know, the other book, you mentioned big liars. The other book wrote with Chris Hart, Pathological Liars, our final chapter, chapter 10. We provide recommendations for families, couple therapy, how do you come out on the other end? So there are ways I'm optimistic that people can change. But yeah, you have to want to. That's the basic part. All right. Well, thank you. This was great. And we really do encourage people to read the book because it is a wealth of information. And, you know, obviously there's parents that lie to you. There's lying in the

workplace and friends and things like that. So, you know, learn how to deal with that. Where can people find your book, your research, your work? Anything else? Do you want Instagram followers, whatever you want to blog. Have an ex. People can follow there. Our books are through the American Psychological Association or Amazon. You can look up the books there. Research. Some of that's on my website or reach out. Email me. I'll be happy to share anything with you. If you just search Drew Curtis, Angela State, you'll be able to find that website there. Okay. Well, thank you for your insights and your time. We really appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks. Well, no lie. This has been a very fun podcast. So I appreciate you both as well.

well inviting me on. Yes, we honestly enjoyed it as well. Yes, we did. Thank you so much. You have a great day. Bye. And you guys know where to find us. Again, Girls Gottaeatatatcom for those tour tickets. We can't wait to see you guys out there on the road. Girls Got to Eat podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I am Ash Hess. Raina is reina.gneberg. And subscribe on YouTube. Share this episode with a friend. Again, our other company is Vibes Only, hit Vibs Only for all your sex toy and cleaner and everything else needs. And then we will see you on Thursday. Have a good couple of days, guys. Bye.