Girls Gotta Eat - Managing a Mama's Boy (and His Mom) feat. Therapist Whitney Goodman

Episode Date: December 12, 2022

It's finally here -- the long-awaited mama's boy episode! We brought in marriage and family therapist Whitney Goodman to break down the mother-son dynamic and how the "mama's boy" forms, how it can look when you're dating/married to one, the different levels of impact it has on your relationship, how to approach the situation, what NOT to do and say, and more. We're also sharing our own experiences, our listeners' top mama's boy concerns, and a hilarious/ridiculous story submission that blew our minds. Before Whitney joins us, we're talking about Rayna's recent hookup, Ashley's face procedure, and the two types of people watching The White Lotus. Enjoy! Follow Whitney on Instagram @sitwithwhit and visit her website for more. Follow us @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit our website for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Shop Vibes Only. Thank you to our partners this week: Daily Harvest: Get up to $40 off your first box at dailyharvest.com/gge. Storyworth: Get $10 off your first purchase at storyworth.com/gge. Milk Bar: Get $15 off any order of $80 or more when you go to milkbarstore.com/gge. Calm: For a limited time, get 40% off a premium subscription at calm.com/gge. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And you can get kind of defensive almost of like, what do you mean my relationship with my mom is too close or she shares too much with me? It can be a really big realization. What up girls got to hear. Welcome back. My God. What are we talking about? We have a lot of stuff going on this week. Well, I feel, so I'm like, if you're watching, I'm wearing this, like, Clemson sweatshirt and then I'm coming off a weekend of, like, all sports.

I woke up at 9 a.m. to go watch soccer this past Saturday. I thought you 11. You'd already had an entire. social plan. Then we went to the Eagles game. Like, now I'm just like rocking this Clemson sweatshirt. Like I'm just, I'm heavy in the sports game this week, just this week. All your teams are going well, I can't relate. It feels nice. It happens to me a lot. And my high school team too. And our podcast. There's been points where it's like my high school football team, my college football team and my NFL team are all just like

dominating. Smurna high school really glowed up. They did? Oh, my high school team is like bomb. blow people out of the water. It's not even fun to watch. I didn't know about this. I don't know you It wasn't like that when I was there, which would have been so fun. It would have been like varsity blues. It wasn't like that when I was there. It was just average. It's sad when you miss it because I went to Indiana University and they're like the Hoosiers, like the biggest most famous basketball team like in the country and I just missed all of it. Bobby Knight left before I went to school there and they weren't good when you were there? All sports were horrendous when I went to Indiana. It is. If I could change like one thing, I would go to like a Big Ten school that had like a real like football

program. I look at the games. I know Clemson isn't a big time school, but I look at the football games at schools like that, and I really regret not doing it. I mean, Clemson was fine when I was there, but now, I mean, and I went again this year, so it's just like a different type of experience. But, I mean, the Eagles, we'll talk about it.

It was fine. We had a very fun day out. We socialized with each other. And also speaking of outfits, I am wearing jeans for the first time in five years for a podcast recording. First time in history of this podcast. How do you feel? I worry. I wore my loose jeans. So I feel okay. These are my favorite pair of jeans. They're from free people.

My whole wardrobe is free people these days because it's just baggy and I love it. So that's what I'm wearing. And I don't know how to look sitting. It's good. I mean, if you're comfortable, I'm comfortable. Very different vibes. We have a meeting today, but I was like, I'm not, I can't wear jeans to record. I'm going to go and change after this. I'm too fragile. My face is fucked up. We'll talk about it. Okay. So our holiday shows this week, I am really, so excited. It is my favorite tradition of every year. I have to have active talks to myself to not cry on stage. I just

get so excited. And for all of our shows. But the holiday show is coming up. If you guys haven't submitted and you're coming to the show and you want to send us stories, just wild sex and dating stories, people you're coming with, you want to roast your friends. If you're coming with single guys, or you crazy breakup stories, you can email stories

at girls got to eat.com. Yes, single guys. Definitely let us know. Send us their resumes. They're dating resumes. Oh, yeah. I love it. They're dating profiles, whatever it may be. But yeah. And yeah, so we're so excited about that. And then we'll go on tour in 2023,

starting in February, getting so excited. I went a hard lot yesterday. I started booking flights, book in hotels, and just forwarding you confirmation numbers. We've never done that before. We always, like, sit down together. I'm not doing it. I was like, stressing me out.

You really just sent me all those ebos. And you were like, these are the hotels, and these are the flight times. And you were like, this is by the cheese cake factory. We can go there before the flight. This is by this restaurant in Denver. We can land and go get brunch there. The place where we had a,

fight in Denver. Well, do you ever just get a wild hair and you're like, I gotta book these flights? Like, in my head, I'm like, there's one seat left at this price. I'm gonna, I have to get it. You know, like, I just was like, I'm booking this. I have hotels.com credits to use. Like, I just went ham and just was like forward, forward,

rain to book this and you were like, thanks. Well, we also have been traveling together for so many years. It's like, we know what the other person is to do where you want to stay. One hotel that we would stay in in Salt Lake City, you know. There's more than what. There is a really, you're going to like it. Ashley knows if she finds me a strip mall near the place or a cheesecake factory.

I'm happy. Yeah. So I'm excited. So you get those tickets at Girls Gotta Eat.com. Tons of shows. There's still tickets for some stuff. So many new cities that we're coming to. We're just so excited.

And those are amazing holiday gifts that you can just print out and give to somebody. Yes. We did this. Ray to mention it last week, but I really just want to double down on it. And we'll have Anna show this on the screen. We made this really cute holiday family Christmas card of me, Raina, and Azul. And so you can get the card and then put like your printout for your tickets in it and make it like a really cute gift. We can't wait to see you guys on the road coming in 2023.

And then we have vibes only gifts, whatever you guys want to get. Of course, all of our amazing vibrators and lube and blow gel and massage oil, the get wet set. The Lucy is this amazing new toy that we have. And I saw this funny email. Did you see this? I did not see it. And I like when you read an email that I know I won't read it. like when I read. The subject line is tis the season slash vibes only gift idea. And this, yeah, sure,

this is a plug for vibes only. But in general, this is like a cute gift idea for your partner. It's really creative and their long distance. So she says, hey ladies, I wanted to tell you about what I'm giving my boyfriend for Christmas and how I'm incorporating vibes only. We've been dating four months in our long distance. So we only see each other on the weekends. They're having some great sucks. New and long distance. Oh, they are fucking. All I would be doing is fucking. Four months long Did it? Yeah. Okay.

I wanted to do something thoughtful that wouldn't break the bank and decided on an advent calendar because what's more fun than opening a gift every day go off? It's all small little things. A note, a sexy Polaroid. We love that. His favorite snack, etc. I'm getting an IUD this week and told him it seems unlikely I'll be in the mood for sex this weekend. So his advent present this Friday is vanilla frosting blow gel for him to bring to my house this weekend.

That is incredible. She's getting an IUD, so she's like, you get a blowjob. this girl, if this guy doesn't propose to her the day she gives him the blowdown. She says, I'm excited to try it out and think it's a fun and thoughtful way to say. I'm thinking about him. Yeah. For sure. Let's be honest, it's really present for me, but I know he will be real excited when he opens it.

I'll be sure to report back. No, it's a present for him. The IUD is present enough for him, actually. That is so funny. Can you imagine that? That's one of his gifts. It's a receipt for her IUD. So you actually might be able to ask the doctor to give you one.

It's just like a little plastic tea. Like you could actually just like pop that into the advent calendar. What, an actual IUD? An I don't know what it costs. I don't know how much money can't be. I don't think they're giving them out. It's not like a bogo. You can't just like ask your doctor for one.

Probably just get what? The receipt. All right, she could put the receipt in there. But I think this is a great gift in IUD. An IUD. He's like, what is this? And she's like, it is free coming forever inside of me. I just love this.

I think it's so sweet and special and creative. And you know, I'm bad at gifts. You know, I'm like the least thoughtful gift giver. I'm so bad at it. I start to panic. I'm bad at it. You're really good at it. You like, what are you talking about?

You like run around the city and like, for my family, you always get these like crazy gifts. I put effort in, but they're not, like, you commissioned a painting for me one year. You got me like this really nice boob necklace that had to be getting like a breast reduction. Like I don't, I don't. I don't, my brain doesn't work like that.

I don't think of those things. I know, I've already, I've gotten you like three things already. It's, I, I, I'm, I start. One of my worst quality. One of them I even got in October. This is what I'm saying. I see stuff and I think of you. That's what I'm saying.

You got me, but you're a nicer person in life. So that's my gift for you. I have to compensate. The other 365 days is my gift to you. I'm just nicer in life. Thank you. That was really nice. It's one of my worst qualities.

I don't think of those things. You do, you start thinking of stuff in October, but I actually am a little ahead of it. I did write in my notebook by Christmas Guests for the Hustle Times. So I won't be doing this the week before Christmas, but yeah, I'm bad at it. So anyways, this is really thoughtful. And I know that, like, maybe you already bought a vibrator from us.

So you're like, what else can I possibly get? We have tons of stuff that are great for, like, stocking stepers and advent calendars. We have a cum towel. The cum towel is, like, the best stocking stuffer. You could get anybody. Your parents, can you imagine? You should put that in my mom's stocking. Would she get mad?

Would she get mad? Would she get mad? Would she get mad? Would you get mad? No, no. Maybe not. But I think it's funny. Yeah, I'm maybe... Give it to Lindsay and Buck.

Yeah, yeah. Definitely give it to Lindsay and Buck. I just think we have so many, like, really fun, gifty things. We have the massage oil. We have the lube. It's an incredible lube. I could have used some lube this weekend. We'll talk about it.

And... You know I've, like, started bringing a little travel thing a lube. When I carry on. Yeah. I'll put a little bit in my, like... little travel necessar bottle. I always think of super bad when he's like, and I brought this little thing of spermacidal loom.

And then Jonah Hill's like, you brought loom? Yeah, little bottle, spermatidal lobe. Does not have a little bit. I guess he just has that like Michael Sarah voice. Yeah, he's like, oh my gosh, does he have a lisp? A little bit. Maybe I just hear other people listening because I have a lisp. So those are great gifts.

Can I address something in my face? For one, I haven't even brought up. If you guys are watching the YouTube, I just look a little like grease and puffy. And so I just wanted to, I'm not wearing any makeup. I can't wear makeup. So I got this procedure done. I obviously went to plastic surgery of Short Hills with Dr. of Chinsky where I got, who did my nose. Some people still ask me who did my rhinoplasty and it is Dr. of Chinsky and he is the absolute best. My nose is absolutely perfect. You know it is. And we go there and we get our fillers and our Botox and all that kind of stuff. So I wanted to get this thing. And I will say

this treatment is called Morpheus 8 and it's a laser and a micrneedling together. But I heard about it on randomly the Skinny Confidential. They had a guest on that talked about it. And then those were our guests last week. And then I heard about it, or Jack Vannick, who from Lady Gang, she got it done. So I think it's really hot because it's like very effective and no, not a lot of downtime. Like a chemical peel. Like people can't like go out in public for days afterwards kind of stuff.

So I will update you guys on like how I feel about the, I got it yesterday as we record. So I'll update you guys on how I feel about it next week. But it was intense. You know, it's funny because they were like, have you had, I've gotten needles to the face, obviously. I'll do Botox and fillers and stuff, but I have never done like a microneedling or a laser to the face. And so I feel like they were like, have you ever had a laser or a peel or microneedling? And I was like, no. And I feel like that's insane to do both at the same time, like to do this thing because it's so intense.

I feel like that's like you've never sucked a dick or gotten your pussy and you're like, let's 69. Let's do all of it. Like, let's just go. So it was a lot. It's painful. They numb you. I've done it before and I did and I had never done any needling or lasering ever.

I only did my neck. I did it a couple years ago. But yeah, I went full send the first time also. A laser is a lot and a need and microneedling. And you put him together, you're like, what the fuck? We were talking about this yesterday. Men could never be women, not for even five minutes. Yeah.

Can you, men couldn't even go through like a waxing. No. One time you just get a man to like wax anything on his body. He couldn't do it. I mean, they do it. Do you my stuff? Yeah. I mean, like, Sweet Peach Raquel, like she tells this, she waxes the guys all the time.

I mean, they will do like their balls and stuff. But a lot of guys come in for just like chest, back. Uh-huh. I mean, if a guy's got a hairy back, like, I would prefer him to wax it because I don't like a spiky shaved back. On the hierarchy, I'm going, I guess, waxed, hairy. Yeah, why are we not just like...

I'm down with a hairy chest, but I don't need a back sweater. It's not for me. Big hairy shoulders. Nope. I guess it's gross. No offense. I haven't really... I haven't really encountered it a lot.

What I hate, the lowest level of body, is shaved. And I just hate it. I would rather a full body sweater on your body than shaved chest. I hate it. I know. If your back is shaved, I'm like, who's doing this for you? Then I have questions about it.

Yeah, I did this guy, the guy that I met at DUI school. And I was like, who's shaving you? What was the answer? Like a roommate? He was like, I do it. I'm like, you can't reach back there. No, uh, there's no way. I guess you could get your shoulders if you're like a little bit.

I don't know. I don't want it. I think it's dangerous. I think it's a risk to try to shave your shoulder. Like your back. Like, I don't know. We had a fun weekend this past weekend that we're recording. You had a wild night.

I'm still recovering. I have a four-day-long hangover, but I'm okay. I'm getting there. I met this guy on Friday night. I am not going to tell the whole story. I might tell you guys the whole story next week. Basically, I had a very fun one-night stand with somebody and we'll, like, see where it goes. but I, like, saw this guy at a bar and he was really cute,

and I ended up going home with him. I did things with him that no one should ever do with a stranger. It was every hole, every single thing. It was, I can't even, I look back at this night and I'm just like, who was she? I can't believe all the stuff I just did. I remember him, he was looking at me being like, who are you? This is everything on the menu that you can imagine we did all of them. I love it.

And then I, like, stumbled out of there. like 7.30 in the morning. I agreed to go to an Eagles game with Ashley and then I slept all day. And he has been nonstop texting me and calling me and asking if he can come over for 48 straight hours. And I'm just... Is he still at it? Yeah. He's still at it. And you're like, it's Tuesday. Sir. On Saturday at like 11, he was like, I want to come over and I was like, I just left. Like, just leave me alone. And then I like remember like, this guy found somebody that does insane things. And so like, I don't blame him. I understand him being like, I want to go back for more.

Like, I think that some people can just be for sex purposes. And that's probably what he'll be. And that's still fine for me. I'm not looking to get a boyfriend three weeks before we leave for L.A. I feel like that is how it happens, though. You hear that all the time. You know, you like give less fucks if you're about to leave a place. I've heard so many stories like that where some people meet right before someone's like about to move. Yeah, because it's like vacation sex. It's like, you just don't care at all.

It's like I'm on vacation. This is my senior semester in New York City and I don't care. I'll do anything. What else can I tell you guys about it? I'll tell you like the full story coming up. I don't want to tease you guys or anything, but I will. Well, you're going to share some stuff with the shows. Yeah.

It's not about like subscribe to our Patreon to get the full deets. It's like you're going to talk about some of it. You're not trying to hold that. But some of the stuff we're going to talk about the holiday shows. And probably even in a 20-23. I have not had like a wild night with a guy like that in a long time. and I started over the summer and towards the end of the summer, like I just wasn't feeling great about my body,

leading up to the breast reduction, and then, of course, you have a breast reduction. And it's just like, it feels weird to be naked in front of new people. And so it makes you feel just a certain way about your body. But I feel great about my body, and the breast reduction is healing. He did look at me. I remember him going, have you had a breast reduction? And I was like, yeah, so?

Like, I snapped back, and he was like, I was just wondering where the scar was. That's all. And then just, like, kept it moving. Like, I do have an obvious scar, but it's, like, nothing crazy. I'm perfectly happy to be naked in front of somebody. So it was just like a really fun experience. Good. I'm glad.

Azul, do you want to come back up here? You're looking so longingly over here. Come on. No? Okay. Does he look scared? Cudy. Are you okay?

Azul, come on. Is it the weather? Oh, you know, is it supposed to thunder? He can feel that. Oh, my God. He's doing it. You guys. You guys, he's up.

If you're watching, he's up on the top of the couch again. Is this, is he doing in your apartment? He's like, cosplaying a cat. He doesn't, no, he does not do. I'm just trying to think of my couch. He could get up there on my couch. He's not. I love it.

Hi, cutie. Okay. So today, we are doing this Mama's Boy episode that has been such a long time coming. with Whitney Goodman and she was so great so we have a great interview coming up. But I wanted to just like address a few different things about us like taking pictures of his old. I mean, look at him.

Is he the cutest? I know. But one thing I just wanted to say in terms of the episode that I didn't, I feel like we didn't get to say with her and of course I think that we're like all aligned with this stuff is like a lot of these situations with like your partner or somebody that you're dating

or even your husband, a fiance, boyfriend, whatever it may be, and his mom, I feel like sometimes the inclination is just to be like, oh my God, she's so overbearing, she's such a bitch, she's just like obsessed with him, she's ruining our lives, she's rid in my life, you know. And I think that it's easy to turn to frustration and anger, but if you can pull it back and try to approach these situations with compassion

and just shift your mindset a little bit, I think it can be like very helpful. Because I think that this is a woman that probably never intended to have a son and become this type of mom, you know? Like I think that whatever, happened along the way she's probably struggling to. I say this as someone who was like gone to situations like, you know, the wrong way, like too, too angry with an on-up compassion and things like that. So I just think it's nice to approach you situations in this way as much as you can

because to get what you want out of them. Like I think that we're all about trying to get you, listeners, what you want out of these situations that are confusing, frustrating, etc. I'm glad that you talked about leading with empathy and compassion. Empathy, that's the other word. I feel like as I get older and I'm, I mean, I certainly don't have children, but a lot of my girlfriends have children now and I watch them be mothers. And like one of my best friends at home, Laura, like I watch how she is with her son and she's so many like hopes and dreams for who he's going to be and what their relationship's

going to be like. And you make a child, you have them on a pedestal. You have all of these things you want for their lives. And I think that, you know, somebody enters the picture and maybe as a mother, they aren't exactly what you think your child is going to date or they aren't super close with you and you're like, I feel like I'm losing my child. And so I understand that sometimes some of these digs and some of those behaviors just bred from that. You've all these expectations for the most important person in your life. Like my friends that are parents, their children, of course, the most important people in their lives. And you have certain wishes and hopes for their lives. And hopefully that doesn't come out in not being kind. to a partner, but I guess sometimes it does. We're all imperfect people. And a lot of people don't even realize that they're not being kind. And we talked about this on the episode.

Like, some of this behavior is just completely, like, not purposeful. You've no idea you're even doing it. The intent behind the behavior is not to hurt somebody's feelings. I mean, sometimes it could be. Yeah. And then that's like, yeah, that sucks. But, you know, also like hurt people, hurt people. So it comes from somewhere.

And I don't think that you, I'm not saying you should be empathetic and compassion to someone who is, like, berating you. or making racist remarks or anything like that. I mean, but in general, like before you tackle these situations head on or figure out how to move forward, it is, I think, just as much as you can shift your mindset. Yeah. So you're not seeing red when you're trying to talk to someone about their family. Yeah, because I think, and we'll talk about this, you know, you do step into a lot of landmines

when you do start to tell somebody about their family. People are like, I can say this. You fucking can't. You know, like, I don't, my mom can be completely impossible. I still have not enjoyed my partners making comments about. it. I'm allowed to talk shit, not you. So that is for people that I think are not throwing grenades intentionally. I do think sometimes a parent really is just kind of like stoking the fire a little bit. They're like, bitch, you won't say anything. You won't do it. You know? And that's really uncomfortable.

And we acknowledge that throughout this episode, of course. Yeah. So we talk about microaggressions and somebody kind of stoking the fire and poking you a little bit. We got this email. It just perfectly summed up this situation for me in terms of like, you're sitting there like, I'm a rational person. I know this is happening and I can't prove it, but I know that somebody is just like crossing little baby boundaries and I don't love it. So this girl with his email and it was just so perfectly done. And so I just wanted to read it for the episode. So really what I wanted was for you to read it for the episode.

On the email reader, all, I'll pass me a little paper. Okay. So the subject line was the mother of all mama's boys. I love that. The mother of all mama's boys. Okay. She says, geez, where do I begin with this?

My ex was a huge mama's boy. He talked to her every morning. She would randomly stop by. We lived only five minutes away. It was just bad. When my boyfriend and I were talking about taking next steps, getting married, she went insane. I would catch her going through my things. She would constantly twist stories around to my boyfriend about how rude I was to her.

Anyway, to wrap this all up, the nail in the coffin was my boyfriend's birthday. We went to her house for dinner. She ordered all the food and made it very clear as an appetizer. She got everyone clams except for me, saying I told her I didn't like clams, which she has seen me eat claims in the past. So I'm saying they shit's so petty. I love it. Well, it's just, like, I'd be like, wait, what?

I like clams. What are you talking about? Also, how much are clams that you can't just, like, get some extras just in case somebody wants them? I mean, clams can be expensive. Seafood would be market price. It can be high. I don't think clams are expensive. I think Clans and Russell's low market price.

Well, you never know what's going on in the seafood industry. There's like a crab shortage right now. Okay. So she said, now I'm making a big deal out of it. my boyfriend shared his clams. She was not happy saying that she only got those clams for him. Later in the night, we were taking food for leftovers and I'm putting the food in a bag, not taking any of the clams. She comes over and tells me that I'm putting the food in the bag all wrong. In my polite way, I allowed her to package the food. Little did I know, she put all the leftover

clams in our food bag. The next day, what is happening with Clamgate? The next day my boyfriend got mad me for taking the clams because they were supposed to be for his nephew. She set her up. She set her up. It turned into a terrible situation. I wasn't allowed back in her house because I was a liar and stole the clams. I've skimmed this. I didn't get to the end, like the actual.

Okay. So this quote unquote clam stealer broke up with him and I'm so grateful because I don't have to deal with her anymore. I didn't realize that's a mom set her up. Set her up. But then her boyfriend should. Where did the nephew come from? Also, clams don't really keep.

Like, they're not like leftover. Again, they're cheap. Also, like, there's not a clam shortage and no one can afford clams. But is... Am I right? Clams, you eat them in the moment. They're not to go. They don't sit long term.

You know? Are they opened? Yeah, once they open. I mean, they can sit in pasta like muscles. Yeah, but you're going to put a bunch of open clams in a to go bag? Well, you know, I feel about shallow. I would never fuck with a clam. I don't get that stuff away from me.

But yeah, you can put it there. They don't reheat well. Like, they get, like, gummy and rubbery, and they're not, like, great. And also, like, the clams, we're supposed to be the nephew. Like, I also can't believe this started a fight. Like, can you imagine you're telling your man about this

and he takes her side and he accuses you of being a clam steeler? Like, what kind of relationship is this that you can be like, you know your mom's crazy, right? You know that, like, this is, like, clam gate, like you said. And like, she clearly wouldn't let me eat them at the table and you just share them with me.

Like, we're rationing clams at this dinner table. You see this is crazy, right? And for him to be like, you're crazy and a thief. So insane to me. Well, she dodged a bullet with that. That is so insane. I can't believe the clams broke them up. I mean, again, we'll talk about this in the episode.

But this type of thing, as long as my boyfriend was on my side, I could laugh this off. Like, I could be like, also I do comedy. Like, I'd be like, just so you know, I'm talking about Clamgate this week on my show. Definitely. You know, like, if I... A soul. Okay.

Do your thing, man. All right. Right on the paper. He doesn't like Clamgate. I really, like, I empower people, though, to actually, like, take a step back, look at your life and be like, I don't know that I want to marry into this. Like, this is a long road. Like, I don't think most people's solutions is like, fuck this family and I'm not hanging out with them. Like, I think most people are like, I just got to say.

settle into this. And it's like when you zoom out and you look at every single holiday for the rest of your life and the people that are going to be the grandparents to your children, if that really doesn't look like something you want, like I think that people do feel empowered and should feel empowered to maybe not be in these situations. And we'll talk about that today. We're not trying to get ahead of ourselves. But I just, this stuff to me, I guess it does. It feels different when you're in it. But if my partner and I were on the same team about it and could laugh about it, I'd be like, you're fucking crazy mom. I would be like, I'm a statistic. I know. I live for this kind of shit. I would set up more dinners with her just to see the other crazy shit she was going to do. Yes. Okay. So this is this thing I wanted to bring up. I've been holding on to this. It's about boundaries. Rana loves boundaries. Can't talk about boundaries enough. And this was a post on the skim that was like right before Thanksgiving, but I think we're obviously going and we're still in the holiday season. But these are from Nedra. So it says the skim said we called it Nedra Tuwab to break down by setting boundaries.

especially important during the holidays and scripts to use in certain situations. So I loved this. And Nedra posts this a lot too. If you guys aren't following Ndra Tawab, we had her on the show. She has two books now, and we'll probably have her back on at some point, but she talks about boundaries. And I like this post because it says boundary setting tip, don't know how to respond to relatives saying offensive things over the holidays. Try. And then they have three bullets. The first one, I feel uncomfortable with the statement you made. The second one, can you rephrase that? And the third one, wow, I'm unclear how to respond. That was unkind to say. And the comments is where it really got lit. And I, what I love the most and what I was, I told you to try was something that you were dealing with

over the holidays. And what I'm seeing a lot more is just straight up, can you repeat that? In work situations, in family situations, like asking someone to repeat something offensive is the biggest power move. Because they're either going to repeat it and sound insane or they're going to realize what they said was out of pocket. So I love that. And there was a couple, like, yes, in the comments, can you repeat that? Having them repeat it makes them rethink, reframe what they said. And then I like this other one in the comments. That's an interesting thing to say out loud. That's my favorite one of all these comments. I feel like people make jabs at me in my life. I mean, everybody does. And you sort of do a double take. And an hour later, you're like,

damn it, I wish I would have addressed that better. I wish I would have stuck up for myself better. because there's so many times somebody will say something to you, and you're like, skr, what? But you're so taken aback by it or shocked by it, and then you let it go. These are things you don't really have to think about that much. Like, sometimes I hear, like, boundary setting verbiage, and I'm like, no one talks like that.

And I'm not going to remember that in the moment. Definitely. I'm already, like, the cortisoles in my brain, like, triggered. Yeah. And I'm mad, and I'm not in, like, a calm, rational moment to be like, you know, that really was unkind and it really hurt my feelings. What I really want to see is, like, fuck you, put that back in your mouth. This is like in the between, you know?

But I just, I'm waiting for the situation to happen. Like I also just think, again, like I said, could be really great at work. If you have some, like, you know, boss or maybe even like some male co-worker who's trying to be condescending or mansplained or whatever. Like, I just think, I'm sorry, can you repeat that? Is such a boss move. I'm like, I'm waiting for it. I just want someone to say something offensive to me. So I can be like, oh, can you repeat that?

To make somebody repeat an insult that they thought. thought was going to be like, you know, passive aggressive and just, and you're going to out passive aggressive them. It is really such a boss move to be like, I think you should say that to me again. And I'm actually sad that I'm not going home for. Are you going like, are you saying it like that or are you kind of pretending you didn't hear it? Like what's the, what's the energy behind it that you picture? I'm picturing a like plain dumb. You know I heard it, but I'm going to be like, oh, I'm sorry. Do you mind repeating that? So I think that's a more power move because I think you haven't risen to their level.

Like when you get mad, you lose. And they can be like, they can just start laughing or like gassing other people up to laugh at you. And like we were talking about this. Like when two people chime in, also you lose. So if you just sort of stay calm and you play dumb a little bit, I feel like that's better. Because I feel like when you, when you've like negged me to like come up to your level, I've also lost.

Yeah. I just want to make you look stupid. We'll post this too. Like I said, but that was from November 21st and that was the skim, but like via Nedra. So we just want to talk about that It's always relevant, especially as we go into the holidays.

And that's pretty much it. One thing I do have to say, Rana, did you watch the most recent White Lotus? We'll talk about the third week in a row. Yes, I did. Okay. I have to say, I read a lot of tweets and commentary on White Lotus.

Jennifer Coolidge, Twitter is where it's at. You have to, what people are saying about her, especially after this last episode, which at this point, there's another one, but the one where she's just doing Coke with the gays,

and it's incredible. But I think there's two types of people watching White Lotus. I think that there's people that are saying, when is something going to happen? And then there's people that are saying, everything's happening. So I'm glad that you brought this up because I was reading commentary about White Lotus last night, with people being like nothing's happening. What? Everything's happening.

I think you're missing the point of the show. The point of the show is to watch how people interact with each other. It evokes so much emotion to watch. My favorite thing in the world is watching these two couples, like, juxtapose to each other and, like, how they are responding to different scenarios in terms of being attracted to each other and cheating and sex with each other.

And I find it so fascinating. Yeah, I guess nothing is happening. No. But I also don't agree. Like, I totally disagree. I also don't know what people mean by nothing is happening. Like, you want, like, a murder every five seconds? Like, thank you.

The entire cast is fucking the same prostitute. No, I'm saying there's two types of people and one group is smarter, and I'm not going to say, but if you know, you know, If you're watching this saying nothing's happening, like, yes, what do you want? Like, everything's happening. Like, it's wild to me, the buildup of all these different stories. There's so many different storylines happening at one time.

Now, finally, the hotel manager is hooked up with the woman for the first time. Like, everything's happening. Yes, there is so much sex and there's so much just, like, deep emotion. It pulls at my, like, emotions every single second. I love watching, what is her name, The Assistant? Oh, Portia. I love watching her, like, sort of reject this guy who's, like, traditionally conventional and go with this guy who's, like, although wild and crazy, now she's sort of, like, realizing, like,

maybe that was a bad choice here. And, like, so much is happening emotionally just with how we think about the world and our lives and sex, interact with each other. I mean, I don't know what they want. No, it's just, listen, there's two types of people. You hear me. You can also, can you tell me, like, what other shows is more stuff happening? Thank you.

I thought this would get you all wrong up. I just, I want to know, like, what people want from a show. Because when you think about, like, the most famous shows of all time, like, Seinfeld, nothing happens ever in any episodes. Like, or, like, I don't know, like, friends. Like, you need somebody who, like, adopt a monkey every single episode. It's just, it's not a show about, like, wild and crazy antics. But, like, I think I know all my favorite shows of all time.

And, like, other than, like, the Sopranos where they murder somebody every episode, I don't know what people want to happen. I mean, also, like, I think there's a lot of shows that you could, qualify as being slow moving, and I felt a little bit more like that in season one, but I don't even feel like that now. Like, I feel like shit is happening. Like, I am enthralled with everything that's happening. I am too. Every single five minutes, something else happens, and there's so many characters and storylines. I'm insulted by these people, but I'm glad you read that up because I saw that too, and I thought, I paused for a second and I was like,

huh, is nothing happening on this show? Is I stupid? And then I was like, no, they're stupid. They don't get it. They don't get it. So much is happening. Oh, and then of course, I love that mean that was like no one knows anybody's names on the show. It's just, it's perfect. It's Jennifer Culloch, Theo James, Aubrey Plaza, son, father, grandfather, Jennifer Coolidge's assistant. So, Portia is the name that stands out to me. Do you, I'm going to ask you a question, see if you know this. Do you know Jennifer Coolidge's name in the show? Gun to your head. Can you even say her first name? I'm trying to think about her husband. You're not going to get it. I just looked up last night. You're not going to get it.

I'm not going to get it. It's on the tip of my tongue. No, it's not. I'm not going to get it. I can feel that it's not. It was when he's yelling at her, it's Nancy. No, it's not. It is, can I have a vowel?

Can I have a letter? Can somebody give me a hint? Okay, fine. Knowing that you were never going to get this, I'll give you a hint. Okay. It starts as a T. Teresa? Tanya.

It's Tanya. But I never, in a billion years, would have guessed that. So I literally was on Jennifer Coolidge Twitter last night being like, oh my God, her name's Tanya. I just forgot. I would. And also, I couldn't tell you, it's Aubrey Plaza and Aubrey Plaza's husband. And Theo James and Theo James's wife. And we love her. And the girl from the huge stand of her. The bold type. Yeah, we love her. I don't know her name. Couldn't tell you. We love the show and we are on the edge of our seat with everything that's been happening. Okay. Let's get into it with our guest. And we are going to shoot over.

to that interview. Yes. We are very excited, guys, to welcome our guest today for an awesome topic. She is a psychotherapist and a licensed marriage and family therapist behind the hugely popular Instagram account, Sit With Wit. She is the author of the book, Toxic Positivity, keeping it real in a world, obsessed with being happy. She has been featured in the New York Times Psychology Today. Good morning, America. And now the show, please welcome to the show, Whitney Goodman. Hi. Thank you for having me. Hi. Thanks for joining us. Our audience. is so excited about this topic. And we have been wanting to talk about this for literal years.

And we've just been wanting the right person to come on and discuss it with us. Awesome. Well, thank you. I'm excited. Well, do you want to start just tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into what you're doing and just kind of your short story? Yeah. So I'm a marriage and family therapist. I work with a lot of young adults on family issues.

in-laws, parents, things like that. I provide virtual therapy now, and then the other part of my work is writing things for social media. Okay, okay. Why specifically like family therapy in-laws, things like that? I have always been so fascinated by how families work. I think they are really the core that impacts every decision that we make in our life. And I've also seen a lot of people become so messed up

because of what happens in the family. And I think if we can get back to that and understand it more, we can have a much better life. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you are who you are based on how you were brought up in your family dynamics. And we've really tackled so much on this show. And we recently did an episode about your relationship. I mean, mainly women with their mothers. And we love to talk about it. But this has been something we haven't really dove into this mama's boy, for lack of a better word, just essentially. I mean, mostly focusing on women who have a male partner and their issues with him and his mom in terms of like lack of boundaries. Do you know, the mom is competitive with the girlfriend or the fiance or the wife and the microaggressions and all the things that come with it. Let me ask you this. Do you see this a lot in your practice?

Definitely. I think it comes up a lot when people first get married, when they're dating. when a baby comes into the picture where there can be all these milestones where there's tension between like a female partner and their husband's mom or even sisters like this happens in that dynamic as well. That came up a lot actually. People were like, talk about the sister. We're like, we'll do that the next episode. But a lot of these things that came up will dive into why this dynamic occurs and how to

manage it as both the partner and what you can ask your boyfriend or husband to do. but so many of these things are like little microaggressions and they're hard to put sort of words to it that doesn't make it sound silly or superfluous and we'll give you some examples but a lot of these things are like I told my man my man was like what are you talking about you know and so it's hard to manage these things

so I guess we can start with like why does this dynamic of this like quote unquote mama's boy occur this like too close too intrusive sort of jabby type of relationship that can happen and competitive with his harders, which is crazy to me. But yeah, we just kind of want to, we want to get to the root of the issue. There's a lot of reasons why this might be happening, right? And this isn't an

exhaustive list, but I think one is that sometimes mothers and their sons can form sort of this like pseudo-marital bond, especially if the husband is out of the picture or not very emotionally attentive, where moms might be getting that type of relationship from their sons. And so they've become too emotionally involved. And then when another woman enters the picture, it's like, wait, you're supposed to be here to meet my emotional needs. And now you have this other woman in your life that you're paying more attention to. And so some jealousy and things like that can pop up. There's also this idea that we all come from different family backgrounds, right? So what might be normal between me and my mom is not normal for you guys. And you bring a spouse into the picture.

and it's like, okay, wait, they're pointing out all these things that you didn't realize were issues. The other thing that I tend to see is that it's just a shifting of a dynamic. You know, the mom might have expected her son to end up with a different type of partner. And you see this come up when someone's a different religion, maybe a different look than they were expecting. They're from a different part of the country. And the parent has trouble, like, accepting that. and there can be a lot of headbutting around that topic.

All of these. Yeah. And I feel like you would know probably if, you know, the son, for example, was smart enough to realize which one it was, if it was like an always problem or a, oh, weird, she's Jewish problem or whatever it is. But it's funny, because I said this recently to my mom recently, a friend who has a really close relationship with her son. I was talking to my mom about this, like, you know, because this doesn't exist in our family.

It's super healthy boundaries between my mom and my brother. And but I was asking about her and her friends, and she mentioned one. And I immediately knew that the reason why is because of her relationship with her husband. And they're fine. They're together, but they just, you can almost feel that she is like seeking something from her son that she isn't getting from her husband. He's just kind of absent, emotionally detached a little bit. And she developed this really close bond with her son.

And it's like that can be pretty easy to pinpoint, I assume, a lot of the time. I think for an outsider, yeah. But sometimes, sometimes. Not from inside the system. Right. From inside the system, like you have to imagine that for some of these men, like, that are getting with a partner, this might be the first time they're hearing about this. And you can get kind of defensive.

of like, what do you mean my relationship with my mom is too close or she shares too much with me or that it can be a really big realization, which to the outside person is like, this is obvious. You do not have good relationship or a good relationship with your mom or good boundaries. And they've never realized that because it's all they know. Uh-huh. And you're questioning almost the intent of it because I think from the son's point of view, I'm just using like heteronormative relationships. From the son's point of you can be like, but my mom loves me and she supports me. You think this is too close?

What is that supposed to mean? Like, neither person really understands it. And I'm not going to spend too much time harping on my brother and my mom. Personally, I have not experienced this in a relationship with a significant other, but I watch it with my brother, my mom, and his wife. And my stepfather was out of town five days a week. I went away to college when my brother was 14. And it was just the two of them in the house for four or five years for a long period of

time. And so they developed this like closeness that like I don't have with her. And so I think it could be really tough when another woman comes in. Absolutely. And even just the change of like how much you're talking, how much time you're spending together, the topics you're discussing. Like if, if your son is always calling you about, you know, his problems and you're able to call him and now there's this other woman in the picture that's taking that away, it's an adjustment. I think a lot of parents go through that adjustment? Yeah, we go through those adjustments with best friends. But I mean, I know it's different when it's like your family, but when things shift at all. And so obviously, that's why it's just the best to have the healthy boundaries in place in the first place.

But we want to just kind of, before we really dive in, if you don't mind, we'll just rattle off some of the things that we've heard. And Rain, you can go through what you compiled recently. But even like we did an episode recently called Should I Be Mad about this. And so many things came up about he talks to his mom, three to four times. a day, like she stops by all the time, you know, he tells her everything important in his life before he would ever tell me. We can't get through a dinner without her calling. You want to go off on some of these? Yeah, because I think some of these are a little more, as we said, microaggressions and not as big of a deal. And some of these are really huge things like weddings, raising children,

things like that. So there's definitely ways to address different ones. But yeah, like Ashley said, calling too much, need to talk constantly, stopping by all the time, making a lot of snide remarks. I'm feeling like as the partner that the mom's constantly criticizing you because you don't cook the same way she does or clean the same way that she does or take care of him the same way. There's all these comments about what you should or could be doing better. Comments about ex-girlfriends came up a lot and other women in their lives.

A lot of contributed to the household invasion of privacy chores, financially supporting a mother also came up. Her being at the house all the time, feeling undermined, mom having keys to the house. I don't want her to have keys. So, I mean, there's a huge range of stuff. I, my guy dated right after college. Like, his mom was still, like, sending him boxers. Like, she still bought his underwear. I was like, we're 23, you know? Like, I'm not saying that's that, like, old, but I was like, ew, just, like, do you just buy your own underwear?

Like, I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it was a little weird. I guess, right, that's different ages, right? Like, maybe it's still normal at 20. too, but at 30, I would find it weird if my man's mom sent him a pack of boxers. And they were like holiday themed. I was like, come on. Your mom sent you St. Patrick's Day boxers? What is going on here? And this is like such an interesting topic to me because I was talking to a couple

different girlfriends this morning about how they experienced this in their relationships. And every example, it sounds a little silly on the surface, but compounded with 30 other examples from this year of the constant poking. intrusiveness, undermining, really, I think, adds up and can be a lot to deal with. And to tell your partner anything without insulting them is really tough because I don't think what you want to do is create a situation where you're pitted against this person's parents. I think you're pointing out a good thing that's happening here is like in all these dynamics, no matter what they are, it's the partner and the mom both saying, I want you to choose me.

I want you to put me first. I want to get to be the one that makes the call here. And I think when we're adults and we partner with someone, we're forming our own new family, right, whether you're married, living together. And you have to decide how are we going to handle outside influence, even if that's from my mom or my family. And if you consistently put your mother in front of your partner, eventually that's going to come to a head.

This is even more difficult when you have a mom that's maybe emotionally immature, narcissistic in some ways, not understanding, that that's, I think, when the boundaries end up getting more and more intense. But the man or whoever it is in this relationship has to be willing to sit with their partner and say, like, all right, I need to hear how this is impacting you and try to get a sense of what this feels like for you, even if I love my mom and I don't think she's doing anything wrong. Yeah, I mean, to me, there's so many, every case is different because you also could have a girlfriend that you're like, you want too much. You're the narcissist here or something, you know, so it's like there's never, every case by case basis would be different. But I mean,

I think at a baseline, like, I'm sure you see this a lot and we see it a lot where the, it feels an impossible task to even get the male partner to validate. It's his mom. Yeah. And some of these things sound so quote unquote sensitive, but you're like, but this is my, my reality, this perception of this is my reality. So how can you even bring it up? It's a really good idea to bring it up, like I think shortly after something has happened. So let's say you are at dinner, the mom makes a comment to you. After the fact, just being like, hey, did you notice like when your mom said this to me, this is what it felt like to me, this is what I heard. What do you think about that? And just trying to open up the conversation and even see

what their perception is. And then from there, trying to create a dialogue about it. I can see how that doesn't seem like a big deal to you, but it's a big deal to me. And this is what it felt like when I heard what they were saying. And from there, you're going to figure out how your partner's going to respond, right? They're either going to be very defensive or open to hearing what you have to say after that. And then what if you really don't have... negative interactions with the mom. It's just the constant has to talk all the time. And then you're

getting into this territory of like, for me, I'm like, are you an adult? Like, do you have to consult your mom six times a day on these things? I mean, where can you even start when it comes to that? Because you almost feel like you're going to insult your partner. But like I don't want her as the third member of this relationship. I'm all sad. When I hear that somebody is like always asking their parents about things or consulting with them, it makes me think they probably don't have a lot of confidence in their decision making. And so they're always trying to outsource that that's where I would want to start is like, you know, you can make your own decisions. It's okay for us to try to figure this out together. If we can't figure it out, then we'll call your mom. But instead of like jumping at

them and being like, oh my gosh, you're always talking to your mom. Why are you doing that? Starting from this place of like, how can I help them feel like they have the ability to make decisions without their parent and make this more of like a team thing instead of beating them up for that. Okay. Because I can see how it would feel like, yes, what you want to get across is that we're a team. But what you're saying to them is like, I don't want you to be a team with your mom. And somebody's just like, who are you to tell me this? It's so tough. Well, and it's, you know, it's tough. It's different at different stages in the relationship, you know, because I could be dating somebody seriously, semi-seriously a few months in, and his mom is being so weird to me.

And it's not that, like, I need to be his new family. And it needs to be he and I as a unit. I'm super close with my family. I don't really go by the rules that, like, once you get married, this is your new number one family. And, like, I think that there's a way to have everybody be happy, at least so far that's what I've seen. And in my family and my brother getting married and having a child and all these different types of things. So I'm not of this, like, I need to be the number. number one, I would be like the middle ground of like, she's really intrusive and she's like making passive aggressive, taking shots at me, you know, so I'm coming at as it as not a place of like, you and I are team. And it's more just like, can you get your mom? Can you get like, this is just

like crazy. Right, right. So first getting them to see it, I think is the important piece though. Of like I like to first come in from this place of like this person has no awareness of what's going on and not assume that they're doing something like bad or negligent right off the bat, right? So like, just be like, do you notice that? It seems like your mom's always telling us what to do or she's always intervening, whatever it is, because they might just have absolutely no clue that that's what's going on. And I agree there is this fine line, but there's also this idea of like what decisions are for us to make and what decisions do we need to have outside consultation on.

And that was something I was figuring out when I got married. I was the one always bringing in my mom. And it was like, your mom doesn't really need to decide what house we buy. You know, like that's a decision that should be between us. Can you ask opinions? And this, I'll think a lot of people will grow out of this too. I mean, I think that I can absolutely see you're young. You're a young couple.

Even if you're getting married, you're buying a home. Like, you're deciding where to live, how to do certain things in life. those are the ages where I was still asking for my parents input on everything. So you have two 25-year-olds. It's like, of course the parents are going to be like, you guys don't know what you're doing. And it's different at 35, I would think. So there's like little things that I feel like it's hard to draw these boundaries because you're like, these are so little and there's so many of them. And I mean, again, I haven't really experienced this in my own relationships, but I watch it happen with my sister a lot, my mom. And no one's really doing anything wrong, but I understand like why it bothers

this one thing comes up all the time with them. Every time my brother talks about making dinner with my sister-in-law, my mom always has to say, like, well, your brother really cooks it. She just sort of sits there. She's the sous chef. She's just kind of chopping stuff. She always just has to, like, make a jab to, like, let everybody

know that, like, it's my brother who's really a control. He's driving, you know, he's driving the car in the situation. And I, these are like little nothings, but like it would drive me crazy. My sister-in-law has never expressed to me that it drives her crazy. But I'm tangentially a little annoyed. And I think these type of things can add up. So I like your advice of like just telling your

partner. I'd like you to just listen for these things. Because I can tell you all day this are happening. But like, do you notice this? Is there any other thing that somebody could like do other than like, please just observe this yourself? Well, when that's happening, it's okay to ask, like, why do you always say that? What do you mean by that? Because there's an intention behind your mom saying that. She's trying to put somebody down. She's trying to make a statement. And sometimes people, when you ask them that question, it gives them a minute to, like, think about why they're saying that. And she might just realize in that moment, like, oh, gosh, I don't know why I keep saying that or find out, oh, it's kind of mean. Let's say that out loud. Right. It's okay to compassion,

like, kindly ask just like, why do you keep saying that? I guess you're right. Sometimes we don't even know that we're saying is red as mean. You know, you think you're complimenting one person, but you're really insulting a different person. Yes. So what are some ways not to approach this? Because, again, I think this is, every case is different, but some tones and mindsets and kind of what not to do

when it comes to thinking about addressing this with your partner. I wouldn't start right out the gate by trying to really separate your partner from their mother. of like maybe disparaging them. Your mom's a bad person. You shouldn't be around her. She doesn't care about you. And coming in like really hot with that is not a good idea.

Also, again, assuming that your partner sees what's going on and that they're aware of it and they don't care about you if they're not acknowledging it right away. Like giving them some time to become aware of these patterns. And also realizing that your partner might want to have a different relationship with their mother than you never. necessarily want them to have. So figuring out how can they have that relationship and you guys also still have a good relationship at the same time. Okay. And like how can I set boundaries around this stuff that doesn't make me look like I'm being unreasonable or unfair and I don't, I don't want you to not have a relationship with your mom. I just, I also want to feel like a priority and like I'm being respected. Saying that is is a perfect thing to say of like I want us all to

have a good relationship and I'm trying to figure that out. There are things that you're allowed to set boundaries around. Like if the woman, the mom keeps showing up at your house unannounced and coming in the door, that's your space. You're allowed to say, I want your mom to contact us before she comes over and we can set that boundary. You're not saying your mom can't come over and she can't see us. It's just here is a limit around that.

So I think trying to be reasonable around those boundaries is fair and you cannot control everyone's reaction to those boundaries. Yeah. Where do you go from a point of trying to express this to your partner and them just not, just complete defensiveness, not willing to hear it? Can you go anywhere from there? It's very hard to. I think when someone's not willing to hear something, not willing to entertain it,

it becomes like, okay, how can I protect myself? how can I set boundaries, particularly in cases where their mother is being really cruel, mean, abusive to you. If your partner's not going to join you in protecting yourself, you might have to assert that boundary yourself. Or decide I can't be in this relationship if you're not going to put me first. Do you see, like, how often do you see that? When you have a couple come to you, I'm sure our families present all kinds of issues

and sisters came up too and we can talk about that. But what do you say to people if a man's just, says to you or a woman that she says, like, I think that this is too sensitive and ridiculous and I don't even know how to approach this. I'm not going to approach it with my mom. In that case, I would really advise the partner to decide can you be in a relationship with a person that is saying these things? Is this something you can tolerate and that you're okay with? And everyone will make a different choice with that. But you have to decide, am I okay living with this if this never changes? And that's the reality. for a lot of couples.

Okay. So what kind of language do you give somebody if the partner then is like, fine, I'll talk to my mom, fine. What kind of language can you give them to go back to their parent and not say stuff like, well, she just thinks you're being a bitch or she thinks you're not being friendly? She doesn't want you to come over so much. Right. This is like the second huge hurdle is like the son having to talk to the mom.

It stresses me out. It's very stressful because I think now that the mom can then or the parent can turn around on their child and be like, you don't care about me, you know, you want me to not do X, Y, and Z that I would recommend the son or child in this situation start off from a very kind place, right? Like, mom, I know you love so and so. I know you care about us. I really want us all to have a good relationship. This is something we've noticed keeps happening. And I want to talk to you about it and just opening up the door for that conversation. It's probably not going to go well the first time you talk about it.

And I wouldn't expect that. You know, like you have to keep working at this stuff. I like we've noticed this. And you said that. It immediately sort of like doesn't make just the significant other the problem because I can see a lot of scenarios where a man is just like, she just thinks you're being a bitch to work and you stop. You know, and it instantly puts the mother on the defensive.

It makes the significant other. the villain. Yeah. Like it's not going to actually, it's not going to tarnish the son's relationship, it's just going to make the mom like you. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder, I'm just thinking, like, for example, if my brother came to me, it was like, mom's doing this thing, I'd be like, I'll, I'll talk to her. Like, I wonder if you ever can get sick. Like, it's, it's just because I'm a, I'm a woman, that's my mom, you know, like, I feel like I've had to kind of, I've had to have some talks with her sometimes where it's, it's so receptive coming for me because it's not the person.

Not that they have a lot of tension, but there was one thing where I was like, let me handle this. And I got in there. Well, Ashley's family is wonderful and rational and kind, okay? But I feel like if my dad was doing something weird, I'd be like, Matt, can you go handle this? Yeah.

Like, we have to divide and conquer. Yes, well, they're wonderful. My family is insane. And I have tried to float the idea to my mom that she is crazy to my sister a lot, and she's like, I don't have no idea what you were talking about. Yeah, you have kind of tried to do this. We had this crazy experience at the wedding

where my mom gave a whole speech about my brother and never brought up my sister-in-law's name. And at the very end, my mom was like talking about how my brother is everything she's ever wanted in a child. He's basically the only thing she's ever wanted in a child. And she goes on and on. And then she ends the speech. And she says my sister-in-law's name finally,

and she just goes, and she is very lucky. And that was the whole speech. And we've made fun of this for years. And my mom gets so defensive because she's like, I'm not intrusive. I don't bother them. Like, from her point of view, she is really, she's just chilling, you know? And if I make fun of it and suggest that she doesn't just chill, she is not receptive to it.

But, you know, I think that for me is if my partner, I could deal with a lot if my partner saw it too and had my back. You know, like, I think it's so much different if your boyfriend, husband, fiancee is like, I know, like, she's crazy. but I'll make sure she doesn't come by anymore, but can you just, can we try to chill on this? But to me, it's like if I have his recognition that he sees this too, I can put up with a lot. I can be like, she's going to come at me and I'm going to let it roll off my back. She's not my mom, whatever. But the hardest part would be someone that can't see it and clearly doesn't have my back. Yes, I totally agree.

And I think I can put up with a lot as long as he's just like, listen, just deal with this for a couple hours. You know? Yeah. Well, then you feel like a team and not like it's your spouse and their mom against you. And you guys can even laugh about it. Like, oh, my God, can you believe my mom said that crazy thing at dinner instead of it feeling like you're the one that's on like the attack receiving end? What about with weddings? This came up and you brought it up also too when you're getting married and feeling like the mother-in-law to be is really interfering.

a lot because we've seen this happen and it really puts a strain on people. This is another time where I think the dynamics are so nuanced and complicated where moms can sometimes use the wedding as like the wedding they never had. They get competitive with the bride. They feel like their sons being taken away from them. That in any of these situations, I think you have to figure out like how do we want to play this? What types of demands are we going to entertain from the parent and how are we going to set boundaries together? And then, I mean, well, typically, you know, because we always say parents

that are paying for it get in there. And so it always gets tricky. Like if, but that would, you know, typically traditionally be the bride's parents. But there could certainly be a world in which the mother in law or mother-in-law to be is fronting some money. Therefore feels like, she can be making decisions. Yeah, and sometimes that's true, right? Like, if they're paying for it, maybe that's their decision to make. It's called me. Again, I'm like, I'm not even saying that they're wrong.

Yeah. Yeah. You know? Like, so. What about something more serious, like, when you are starting to have children and you feel like a mom or like a grandma now is, like, picking it the way that you raise your child? This one is so hard.

And I think you have to get really comfortable at saying, like, I appreciate your input. This is how I'm parenting. This is what we've chosen to do. Or, you know, you got to parent your children already and do it the way that you wanted. And this is the way that we're going to parent. And this is where it's so important to be a team as co-parents and being firm in your decisions. It's not my first thought to, like, defend myself and clap back at somebody usually. I let these things go for like a while and there's like five times that somebody's done this to me.

And then I'm just like mad. So it's hard to turn that around. So if this has become like a pattern and not just like one thing, is there any other like advice you have? Because I think the children's stuff can just feel really judgmental and jabby. Absolutely. Sometimes when things become a pattern and you snap, it's because you didn't say something early enough. So I would always encourage people like when when things start feeling bad, bring it up sooner rather than later. because otherwise it's probably going to get worse.

We always say too, like your relationship can look like whatever you want it to look like and it doesn't have to be spending every holiday with these people or whatever it is. I mean, I could see a world in which there's a healthy relationship and the son isn't going to be estranged from his family and they're never going to like you and you're willing to be like, I'm not going to spend a lot of time with them. You know, I'm going to go see my family and we're going to come back together in the city where we live or whatever it may be. Like figuring out, like you said, how everybody can coexist.

or calling it. Yep. How often do you see it work? I know. The girlfriend or the sister or the girlfriend or the wife is like, let's spend some time together and try to get to know each other and like each other. Like, do you see it happen a lot that the mom's like has this epiphany moment where they like really get along and love each other?

I do when it's around certain things. Like kind of these surface level things that like just don't fit into their vision but they come around on. That I've seen work. When it comes to things like religion, race, things like that, where people have these very fixed mindsets and they're not willing to budge, that's where I think it gets more challenging to see that work out. The parent has to have some level of insight and awareness for this to happen. Uh-huh. Do you see the other stuff get repaired? The incessant phone calls and calling and stopping by and passive aggressive comments? I mean, do you see moms change? 100%. Absolutely.

Absolutely. I think when it's handled the right way and the parent has insight and they're able to kind of see their way, there's also a point in time I think where parents might realize like, hey, I got to change my ways or I'm not going to have a place in my kid's life. And so the onus of responsibility is also on that adult to figure out what's a new way for us to relate. And I'm curious what you think about understanding, especially if you're the partner that's frustrated with this, that this can be a long game and this is changing a family dynamic and it's not going to happen overnight and it's not going to happen with one conversation. And if you're seeing a little bit of progress, it's great. And it could get to the point that is livable for everybody over time. Yes.

That patience is so important because I think people try to jump the gun too quickly sometimes. with these really hard and fast boundaries and rules, and it can be shocking to a system that's been operating like this for generations. And so remembering that you're an outsider, you're introducing new things, and it might take some time for things to change. Yeah, because I think these dynamics have existed sometimes for three decades before you walked into the picture a lot of times,

and you're this new thing, and I can understand somebody's mom being like, who the fuck is this? You tell me that I'm calling too much. I can't show it at my kid's house. I raised this person. Exactly. I buy his boxers still and I'm going to keep doing it. I mean, I will say that that relationship,

I thought some things were weird. We were long distance, so I didn't see his mom a lot, but she was just not my kind of woman. I just, she wasn't cool, like my mom. She wasn't funny. But I just sucked up to her and kissed her ass and just turned into the person that I felt like she would like, and it worked.

I mean, I remember going to a wedding and she was there. I sat next to the whole time. I was like, we were just talking about the Clemsing game. You know, I just was like, I'm just going to really make an effort. Like, I am likable, and there's no need for me to, like, win or something. Like, I just, if I can just make her like me, I have won. And I just really went kind of hard on trying to be likable for her. And it really, it turned out.

I feel like she just started to back off of him more and really was supportive of, the relationship while it lasted. And, you know, I am, I'm stubborn and I can have ego about stuff. But that I just was willing to, I decided to make an effort instead of being like, she doesn't like me and she's not, she, like, I wonder sometimes if you're just like, you just don't like the mom. You're like, she sucks. And so you're, you don't want to make the effort.

But sometimes you have to make the effort too. For sure. I think I want to walk away from these situations feeling like I made the biggest ever possible. I do the right thing as the partner. I show up. and I bring flowers, I try to help cook, I try to engage. And I just want to feel like if it's not being reciprocated, kindly that at least my partner acknowledges it and validates it.

And we all want to just be validated for how we're feeling. And I think that it's, I love that we're like validating also that like not, you don't have to be best friends with your partner's mom. Like it's okay. And like maybe you just don't spend that much time there. You know, I mean, I don't know how many, how much time we're really spending with our partner's families. What a few holidays a year?

maybe you've kids, it's a little more. But as long as you're trying, I think that's all you can really ask of yourself. And here's another thing too. I mean, I've definitely heard of situations that there is a super tight-knit family and they live close enough and there's a Sunday dinner, you know, every Sunday. And, you know, as kind of the family dynamic is that the partners are expected to be there too. And at what point can you be like, I can't do this every week. I love you. And I think your family's fine. And I love that you have a close relationship. but like, you know, those things are tricky too, where you're like, I'm not refusing to spend time with your family, but it's a lot.

But you're allowed to opt out of that. Yeah. Like, that's not mean or I think we're talking about such a spectrum of stuff here, right? Like not wanting to spend every Sunday with your in-laws or not maybe like your personalities being like that good of a match is not abusive or cruel or wrong. Like that's just life. You don't get along with everybody or want to see them. every week. And so I think we have to be careful not to have these really like black and white

interpretations of like if they don't come to dinner every Sunday, they hate us and they're mean. When really it could just be like, oh, they need a break. I had to like really draw some boundaries of the Nexus family. His mom was really, a lot of really serious problems, like really serious psychological problems. And it was a lot for me to be around them, the way that she interacted with her children, what she really needed from. her ex-husband, what she needed from my boyfriend at the time. And so I did kind of opt out of spending a lot of time there because I just, it was uncomfortable for me.

I did as much as I could to be as kind as I could, but it wasn't always the most comfortable situation. And he at least validated it. It was like, yeah, I know it's a lot. And I did what I could. And like as long as I showed that I was making some effort, that was our compromise, you know? Yeah. And I think it probably, you know, I think a little can go a long way with some of these moms.

if you just validate their relationship with their son, like a little bit, you know, like if you at least give them a like, oh my gosh, that thing that you did for him or you sent him was so cute. Like, I, that's the shit that I did. I just sucked up, you know? I felt like I needed to make her feel special and that I really respected the relationship with her son in order to get her to accept me. And then hopefully back off a little because the mom likes you so much that they trust that

you're a good enough partner for their son. Yeah, and you both have the same goal, right? Like, you both love the same person and care about the same person and want everybody to get along in whatever that looks like. When it comes to something bigger, it comes to financial support, or we have, you know, the mom's trying to live with you. I mean, that can be for a bunch of different reasons and people can fall ill and different things like that.

But the financial support, how do you even tackle that? Because to me, I dealt with a situation that I didn't go about it the right way. It's so tricky. It's really tricky. This is a conversation I think about like values, cultural norms and like ability. I don't think it's fair to expect adults to support their parents when they can't. Like if they actually don't have the ability and are going to tank their own family in the process. but there are a lot of families where that is the norm.

It's expected for us to sacrifice everything for our parents to move them in with us, whatever it is. I would always approach this from the perspective of like, okay, what meaning do you put on this? What values did you grow up with? What's your story in your own family? And let's try to understand where each other is coming from this. Instead of just being like, no, your mom's not moving in with us. That's crazy.

We're not giving her money. You know? Yeah. And at least trying to have the conversation. Because then you're just both on the defensive. Yeah. I mean, I can even see a level of where you just are, it's not so much that you can't afford your own family, you know, but it's just that you, like, you want to go on a vacation.

You want to do something that's just an extra. And your husband or partner is giving a lot of money to his parents. And I mean, I just, you got to tread so lightly. And that could be a long road. too. You might not get to go on that vacation that year. This is true. Anything else that you see come up is a really huge issue between significant

others and mothers that are sort of pitting them against each other and any other type of advice you would give. And I'm just curious, I know that you do this a lot. So anything else you see come up quite frequently. Yeah, you know, something I'm seeing a lot is now with women working a lot more and being maybe out of the house, not being

stay-at-home moms, that there's this big conflict between like kind of what you expect your wife to do compared to what your mom did and this amount of labor that's like happening in the house or what men are doing now in, and you know, this heteronormative relationships that I think I see such a difference between what men are expected to do today and what their dads did and maybe what women are still carrying in the home while also working, that there's a lot of conflict, I think, around what,

what's expected. So this came up and people saying like him expecting me to be his mother essentially. And what I took from that is that, you know, like to take care of him the way his mom did. And maybe your mom, maybe his mom didn't work. You know, maybe her job was to be a mom and your job is to be a mom and also have an outside job. So what do we even say in these situations? Because like, I'm not going to be able to be your mom. And that should be a totally okay.

If he wants you to be the mom and the mom wants you to be the mom and she's doubling down. And then you're like, I'm fucked. and I can't even cook. Exactly. I think that's the problem is that then his mother is also measuring you on an impossible standard, right? So being, this is something I think every couple needs to talk about from the start. Like, what are you looking for in a partner? Because there are some people out there that are actually looking for someone to cook and clean

and stay at home and raise their children. And like, you need to make sure you're on the same page about that. So it's not like you have a bait. and they're like, oh, wait, no, you're going to quit your job tomorrow or you haven't talked about this, which I see happen way more than it should. So having these types of conversations about expectations is huge. I always say, like, I always thought I would be a mom my whole life. And then I took a moment to really think through the steps of what does my life look like if I am a parent and think through each of those things. And I think we're not having those

conversations with our partners enough day one of like, who do you actually see raising the children? What time do you see dinner being on the table? Do you see dinner being on the table? Do you see me cooking it or are you cooking it? Yes, exactly. Are you okay with hiring help if you have the resources to do so? I see this go wrong and I'm like, how did you? We sometimes think people want to get to the altar so badly that they don't ask the questions

because they don't want to know the answers. Or they just don't know any better. But yeah, it's like have the conversation, have the conversation. But we don't have you for much longer. We know you have a hard out. but can we do, you know, five minutes on sisters? Sure. And is it the same, you know, like with the moms and how to approach it?

Or why does it happen? I mean, you tell us. I think it depends a lot on how the siblings are ordered sometimes. Like if you have a youngest boy with sisters, there can be that very similar dynamic to mothers. Sometimes when there is no father in the home, the brother ends up kind of in that fatherly role with the sister. sisters. And so there's really complicated dynamics there that then when you bring a new person

into the family, like, wait, he's supposed to be operating as my dad or he's kind of like my son. And everyone gets shuffled around that we kind of have to give people time to settle into those new roles. Yeah, we got one that said little sister obsessed with older brother. I dated him. And I've seen it. And it helps. It does help when that sister finds a partner. You know, she's almost looking at her brother as her partner. And we've seen sisters and brothers, like their photos. We're like, oh my God. She's like on his lap.

We've seen a little too close. I think that if somebody doesn't like you, my advice to sisters that like seem to hate you is to try to befriend them. I mean, that would be my first thing is that you actually are peers. You actually are the same age. So like find time to spend together that is outside of with the partner. If they can see that you're not a threat and you want to have a relationship with them, it can help.

But I've dated people that, like, the sister's, like, sitting on his lap or calling a lot or he's calling her to, like, make decisions. And I'm like, I'm literally right here. This is crazy. I'll fight your sister. I don't care. I'll suck up here, mom, but I'll fight. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

But, okay. So just kind of same type of thing and realizing that just, like, patience really is such the key here. Wait a amount. And, yeah. And see. I'm here to stay. Yeah, exactly. Bolt or you've got to wait it out.

And just, I mean, just take notice of small improvements, right? Like, if we're going to be together for the long haul or even for a significant period of time, let's just hope that this is a blip on the radar. We get to a place where everybody can coexist happily. For sure. For sure. Well, Wendy, I know you have to jump, but thank you. This is really great. want to find you, find your Instagram, your website, your book, everything. We didn't even really

get to talk about your book, but I was reading it this morning. It's a really interesting topic about toxic positivity and why we don't have to always be so happy all the time. So it's a great book. I want to validate that. I'm really enjoying it. So tell everybody where they can find you. Yes, you can find me on Instagram, other social media at Sit With Wit. My website is sitwithwit.com and my book and everything else is linked all through there. Okay. Great. Thank you so much. This was really great. We appreciate it.

And you guys know where to find us. Girls Gottaeatat.com. We are Girls Gotta Eat Podcast on Instagram. I am Ash Hess. Raina is reina. org. You guys can always email stories at girls got to eat.com and vibes only. Vives only on Instagram, vibes only.com.

And Girls Got to Eat Podcast on TikTok. You did it. That's it, guys. Have a great week. Bye.