Girls Gotta Eat - Prolonging the Passion feat. Intimacy Expert Michaela Boehm

Episode Date: October 26, 2020

We're joined by intimacy expert (and relationship counselor to the stars) Michaela Boehm, and she's educating us on achieving intimacy first with yourself then with a partner, how to keep the passion alive in a long-term relationship, going from "go mode" to "flow mode" in the bedroom, the problem with fancy anniversary dinners, tantric sex, and more. We're also answering the question, "If the sex is bad at the beginning, is there any hope?" and getting real about determining if someone is a long-term match for you. We're also discussing our ideal living situations with a partner (Ashley's is...unique), and Rayna reflects on a significant anniversary and how it has affected her life today. We hope you enjoy! Follow Michaela on Instagram @MicBoehm77 and check out her website for a wealth of information. Follow us @GirlsGottaEatPodcast, Rayna @Rayna.Greenberg, and Ashley @AshHess. Check our website for tour dates. Thank you to our partners this week: Function of Beauty: Go to functionofbeauty.com/gge to take your four-part hair profile quiz and save 20% on your first order. Rory: Try out your personalized treatment for just $5 at hellorory.com/gge. Dame: Get 15% off your first order at dameproducts.com/gge. Candid: Go to candidco.com/gge + code GGE for your risk-free starter kit and $75 off. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And then they go to the fancy restaurant, which is always a bad idea because who wants to have sex after you've eaten an enormous meal? No, I'm trying to fuck after a light salad. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat. Welcome back. Can you guys feel that it's Saturday? Oh, my God. Like, I feel like we haven't recorded a Saturday episode since Derek Pave last summer. I have nothing to do.

When he held me up against the guardrail outside and just like slam me up against that fence. What are you doing? He is a girlfriend now. All right. It's a nice memory for me and probably so super platonic for him. Speaking of a lot of plutonic. We didn't. We didn't,

no, no, it's not hard for me. We didn't talk about on last week's episode how you always used to say plutonic. This is the greatest gift this podcast is given me is how to say platonic. Yeah. I thought plutonic is a word. Plutonic. Like Pluto.

I have retrained my mouth to say I'm platonic. I'm glad. That was so long ago that you didn't get it right. years ago and all of you let me know. The greatest gift this podcast has given me. So we're back from our trip to Nashville. We're back. It was so fun.

It was really fun. The shows were so incredible. Thank you guys for coming. Lots of funny moments. Lots of funny stuff that happened there. But honestly, the stories are really good and we'll probably save them for our next virtual live show, which, Are you announced to the date?

Are we doing this? No, no, no, no, relax in the date. I'm just teasing it. that we do have a holiday show coming up for you guys. We're going to do something crazy. So a lot of you been asking, and we had so much fun in our last virtual live show. So we'll be doing one in December.

We'll announce a date soon. You guys are going to get tickets soon. I got excited. I thought you were announcing it. No. We still know the date. We'll just let next week. We'll save up all the crazy shit that happened in Nashville

in our own lives for that show. Yeah. We were safe. We were distance. We were safe. We're always safe. Not everyone is in Tennessee, but we were. And I just want to shout out the hotel.

They didn't like hook us up or anything. They tried you after the fact. But this hotel, I still have been thinking about it. You don't always thinking about recently or some my favorite hotels in that I've ever been to and that probably is at the top for me because the hotel is so wonderful and the rooms are great and like the coffee shop and the restaurant and the rooftop, everything's really great. And then the dog. There is a dog.

The hotel is the, I didn't even say the name of the hotel. The hotel is the Bobby in Nashville. A dog just like lives there. Guys, it's the greatest hotel amenity I've ever seen in my entire life. And I never thought that I would love a hotel. Like I'm just trying to, like, do my business when I'm in a hotel. I'm trying to, like, work or like eat and get going. This every day, we just, like, walked to the hotel.

I just, like, ran up to everybody. It's a dog named Sasha. She's, like, the sweetest, most lovable, best trained angel of a dog. And I got to say, this is funny. You and I, we had a day where we just never left the hotel. We're in the hotel. I'll be the entire day. It was a fun day.

It was a fun day. We played with the dog and we ate snacks. And, like, we had that great salad. Yeah, I got chicken. you didn't get into any chicken and I wouldn't let you have any of mine. I know, I was like, can I have a piece? You're like, you should order it. I was like, you should order it.

Yeah. Uh-huh. Girls got to get chicken, I guess. No, I just, it was so funny because I just feel like that's such a testament to our relationship where we look back, I mean, we had a show that night, but we look back on the day. We're like, what a great day. All we did was sit in a hotel lobby.

Literally the lobby. Like, not even some are cute, just the lobby. The Bobby Lobby. It was great. We saw some fans. Yeah, it was wonderful. But that dog. I miss her.

I feel like you're becoming a dog person. certain dogs. Like, you know, I like, I like medium-sized, small to medium, like Frenchies and Pugs. Yeah. And this dog, this short-haired, like, rescue. Totally, like the, such rescue dog vibes. I mean, it was a rescue dog. Yeah. She was a rescue dog. But anyway, Nashville is great. Thank you guys for coming out. And we'll work on more live shows as it's safe and as we can. Yeah. We're gonna, we're figuring it out. We want to just be totally safe and exemplary. Responsible. Responsible. That's so. So, um, stay tuned. Definitely that virtual show, what I call it, stupid live stream show. Uh-huh.

That's the new brand. Stupid live stream show will be in December so you guys can get out your holiday sharkoo boards who dress up for it and like stream it on your TV and have holiday parties. We'll announce a date soon. You guys can get tickets and it'll be super cheap. Wear gowns. I still have my holiday gown. Oh my gosh.

Are we doing gown? I'm going to wear a gown. Okay. I'm going to wear my sparkly Amazon.com gown. Yay. Stay tuned. What do you have to tell me about a date coming up? Not a romantic date.

Just to be clear. You were my date last night. We had a good date last night. We talked a lot of shit. Really? I said I took a lot out. I really like, I cried a little.

You cried a lot. I was emotionally yesterday. You cried like four times last night. It was cute. Not tears. My eyes like well up. They were happy tears also. There were pride tears.

Yeah. No, this isn't like a funny thing. It's just like a sweet thing that I wanted to share with you today is that today on the Monday of our episodes on the 26th is the anniversary of

my engagement party years ago. Oh my gosh. And I like think about this date every year and I do this like check with myself where I'm like, whereas, you know, this is, I saw this sign and said like, I'm so happy. I didn't choose the things I thought would like make me happy or something like that. Wait, okay. Your like engagement party like where your ex-ante broke up with you. He broke on me the next day. Yeah. Right. Okay. So if you guys, I mean, I do talk about it in the pocket slot, but like the 30 second thing is the night before the engaging party. He told me he wasn't in love with me. Probably wasn't going to marry me. Went to the engagement party with 75 people. The next day. I told him I thought that we could pump the breaks,

not get married. He left me anyways, packed a bag, left. And if you guys want to listen to like that episode, it was how to get over a breakup right now. Right now. Which was, I want to say spring, 2018. Yes. So we talked about that in a breakup of yours.

But so I always think about it on this day and I think, you know, what my life would have been like and, you know, that you think that you have these moments in life you're actually going to die and like you're in so much pain. You're so sad. And like, you can't imagine. in another life because the death of your life has just happened. And I just, you know, I want to constantly give people the message that, like, you can find

a new dream, you can find a new path, you can find new things that make you happy. And just because this one thing dies doesn't mean, like, you can't have a world of happiness outside of it. I love that. I just, you know, I am in a testament to the fact that, like, you really can, quote, unquote, lose everything that you thought would make you happy and rebuild your life and be super happy, you know? Yeah.

I traveled the world. I made all these friends. I met you. I built these businesses. And so, yeah, I just want to remind people that no matter how bad you think, like, today is it will always get better. Always and to the point where you will like you said, look back and it'll give you anxiety almost to the point of where you feel sick thinking if you, if you had a done it. You know what I mean? If you think of had he never broken up with you and you

married him and this is no shade to him. Like oh my God, can you imagine? It's just like that wasn't the life you were supposed to live. Like thank God somebody called it quits. Like it to look back and be like, oh my God. And you never will think in the moment when it's happening that you could ever in the future look back and not want that. and like you do all the time. Uh-huh. I thought I remember... 99% of the time.

I remember feeling I would never be happy again. Yeah. And then no one would ever make me happy again. And like, you know, I'm so humiliated. This is like the worst thing that ever happened to me. But, yeah. I mean, you can just have a different path and you will forge a better path. And it might be real shitty for a long time.

And it was. Yeah. But, you know, I always do this check-in with myself on this date every year. And I'm like, it's really nice that this like didn't work out. And then I survived. And like, now I have all these things. I can't believe it's that date. I'm so, like, you know, I'm like so obsessed with dates.

I always think about dates. So, like, that would always be in my head, too. Mm-hmm. I think about it every year. Because it's right by Halloween. That's how I remember. Yeah. So, yeah, I just wanted to tell you that that's today.

And I'm so glad you don't you. Look at me now. You have so happy. Oh, God, I can't imagine. What if that was my man still? Sick. Two seconds. Actually, like, no shade to him, but shade to him, kind of.

And I do think that you can forgive people to move on and we have forgiven each other and, you know, try to have sex with each other again. Yeah. Yeah. You know. Well, I love that you share that. We are going to keep this intro relatively short. We have a little bit longer, an incredible episode for you guys today with a really great guest.

Her name is Michaela. Boom. Boom. I was like so excited because I was like, I know how to say her name. She was like, no. So, okay. We're going to address a few things up top that we didn't really get to cover with her, but we have some strong feelings on.

And I also just wanted to say, as I was. was listening back to this episode editing it, it has a little bit of a different tone for us in the best way. Like it's still empowering, but it's really like practical, realistic, but still eye-opening advice and information on kind of taking a look at yourself and then how to be in a healthy reciprocal relationship and not losing yourself in that relationship and keeping the passion alive and how to, you know, maybe soften your edges a little bit, show appreciation for your partner, which is stuff we talk about, but I don't know. You guys will see. I really hope you enjoy it. Actually, it's sort of interesting you just sort of like spark something.

I mean, when I was thinking, like, we sort of talked about this with her a little bit. And I don't, I don't think we recorded it. I think it was afterwards. But like relationships in the current state have only existed for a very short amount of time. And by current state, I mean, men are pretty equal in this world now. In terms of finances, men don't need women to take care of everything for them. Men are capable of doing those things. Women don't need men to pay for everything. the current state of relationships has only existed for, I don't know, 40 years. And so there's a million different thoughts and opinions about how to like change and make these things better. But like, it's a very new thing that men and women are equal. I can make their own decisions. Yeah. Women are equal to men. In terms of just like, yeah, you don't need a man.

Like you can. Yeah, clearly. We know that. There's still some equality issues across the board. But yeah, exactly. Okay. So while we're talking about that kind of thing, I want to get into something that I didn't really get into.

I don't know if I've talked about this in podcast. I might have like joked about it lately, but like this is kind of how I feel. So one thing the Michaela advises or encourages, she has celebrity clients. We're talking like Gwyneth Paltrow, Google her with Gweth Paltrow. She's Gweth Paltrow's like relationship spiritual advisor. Will Smith and Jada. So big deal. She's a big deal.

And one thing that she kind of got some press for was that she, I guess, advised Gwenth and her current partner is named Brad now? Her husband. Her husband. Yeah. Them living separately. as a married couple. And people, of course, were like, that's so crazy, obviously.

You know, whatever. Michaela herself has, we don't want to talk about her relationship, but that's something that she has also practiced in her life as living aside from a long-term partner. And she talks about that and you can Google more information on this. So I think like this was a time for me to tell you that that is what I want to do. And I just want to say, before I get into this, my disclaimer is that I literally don't care what you do with your life, whatever makes you happy.

Everyone should live their truth. I have different opinions and thoughts. and feelings and my life choices are not an attack on yours. You know, I just want to say that up top, because it's a little unique. I don't think I want to live with somebody ever. I can't imagine sleeping with someone in the same bed forever, for literally ever. To me, the goal is amass more space. Get a bigger bedroom. Get a bigger bed. Get a bigger closet. All for me. So I'm going to sleep in my California King with you rustling around, breathing heavy, snoring after you've been drinking and ruining my R.E.M. Forever? Forever. What are we working towards ladies? And sharing a closet?

You want to have your clothes with a dude's clothes. I'm going to have these Jimmy Chu shoes. I've only bought one pair of designer shoes my entire life. I finally got to a point where I could afford Jimmy Chu combat boots next to your fucking Nike's. Or on the flip, my crocs next to your loafers? No. Also, bathrooms. I've talked about bathrooms before. Don't even get me started.

You know how I feel about separate bathrooms. Sharing a bathroom with a man forever. Oh, my God. And I know people are going to try to come for me and like, not everyone has a huge home and multiple closets and bedrooms and yada, yeah. That's not what I'm talking about. I live in a small one bedroom apartment. Like don't come from me.

That's not the issue here. I'm talking, you have a big house. You choose to share that closet with your man. What are you doing? put your shit and get your own space. I cannot believe women with all, like how much we pride ourselves, not all women, but some women pride ourselves in our clothes and shoes and we just want like a Carrie Bradshaw closet and yetta, yada. And then you just share it with the man.

It makes me sick. And I know that this is and I know that this is what some people want. So I'm over here like all I want is like my own space, my own freedoms and my own closets and all these things. And some people are like, it would be an empty bedroom without my love next to me. Like, you know what I mean? Like, some people are, like, looking at me, like, you're crazy. All I want to do is share a closet with somebody and a bed with somebody, and I'm just like, it's my nightmare. So my dream case scenario is probably that if I have a long-term partner or a husband, whatever it may be, we live in the same neighborhood, different homes, same building maybe.

At the bare minimum, we have a home with two master suites. And this is like goals. You know, when I, like, when I grow up and I buy a big home. I remember we did Corey's kind of like a low-key bachelor at party for her in Dewey Beach. a few years back and we stayed in this home and it had, it was the first time I ever saw this. And two exactly the same size, like symmetrical, huge, stunning master bedrooms on the top floor. So the whole top floor was these two master suites with like the same giant bathroom, same giant closet, same giant king bed.

And I was like, what is going on here or whatever it is I want to be a part of it? And so I've always said this. I just like don't, I just want my own space. I've never like, like I loved living with roommates and stuff in college in my early 20s. But like I love my own space. I love my own freedom. The thought that every day you just have to. come home and someone's just fucking there

and you have to talk to him. Like, the reason why you and I have such an amazing relationship because we don't live together! We literally talk every second of every day. The minute I leave here, I'm like, you text me until I go to sleep. I'm like, how do we still have more things to talk about? But we don't live together. We don't live together. All right.

I think that you're on is something about separate master suites. I do want to live in the same home and you know me. I want to be on top of somebody. I want to be on top of somebody. At all times, always. I want them to be touching me. constantly and telling me how pretty I look and just like eating the food that I cook and telling me how amazing I am. I'm an amazing chef and blowjob giver and an amazing cuddler.

And like I do feel you on the multiple master sweets though. I would never let my husband like even live like more than 10 feet away from life. You want to sleep in the same bed with somebody. I do. Yeah. Forever. Oh, you do. I just, I do.

I don't care if you want to do that. Okay. Here's what I don't like. I don't want to wake up next to somebody's morning breath and their farts forever. I don't like that. So I like the option of having a second bedroom. Sometimes I can go be in it. But yeah, I want to be on top of somebody at all times.

Always I will never share a closet with someone. I've never done it. I've lived with multiple men. I never shared closets with either of them. We had separate closets. Good for you. I just think, you know, my parents have separate bedrooms. We talk about a little bit with Michaela.

Like, it doesn't mean you don't have sex. You probably have more sex. Honestly, you know what I mean? And I like to cuddle too. Like, I would love to spoon and fall asleep in someone's arms on Sundays. You know, like, I'm all about that quality, not quantity. Listen, first of all, my parents have had separate bedrooms my whole life. My mom and her husband and my dad and his wife, separate bedrooms my whole life.

And, like, that's great. Like, you ask me the old couple, they're like, yeah, that's what keeps up relationship with your parents, too, separate bedrooms. Like, I don't think you have to be in any box to have a good relationship. I'm being my box. But, like, no, I'm just, do whatever you fucking want, everybody always. That makes you happen. I know an amazing couple.

She's a good friend of mine. She lives here. and they have a kid, two kids now. But when they lived in Park Slope, they shared a studio for years. Like, it worked for them. Whatever. This is, again, it's like, live your truth. Like, be happy.

But like, for me, I think that that is what I'm going to want one day. It's like, my own space. Like, I think it also keeps it hot. You kind of just, like, date forever. And this is not for everybody. But I love that, like, that is a principle that Michaela offers to couples and tells them this is not weird and this is okay. And like, whatever works for you is great.

I love that you just popped off about this. You really led your truth. I can't, I can't, I can't get over it. Sleep with someone forever. It sounds so fun to me. Oh my God. You just said like come home and like someone's just there.

Yeah, that sounds great. I love attention more than anything. You know what I'm like? What are you watching? I want to watch my show. Yeah, the multiple rooms are just living in a bigger place. I moved you with my ex, fiance, like, I don't know, six weeks after we started dating.

Fully moved in. Yeah. I just like it. But it's one of those things of like I was so excited to live with a former partner of mine too. and it's one of those things that you can always change. Like, I just, that's what's the beauty of being your own unique person and growing up. And, like, you could live with somebody in your 20s and your 30s, whatever.

And then you could get into your 40s and you could be like, I don't want this anymore. And your partner agrees. And then you live a totally different life. Like, it just can always ebb and flow. You know what I mean? And I just, I always think about my parents. And again, my dad just like, it's more, it's kind of, they slept in the same bed my whole childhood. But then his snoring just got so.

It's more about that. My mom, I said, too. story and got so bad that my mom was in the guest room a lot and then when they built their house that they have now in 2015 they just kind of like made her like a little bit bigger bedroom. But yeah, that's my that's my truth. So I shared it with you guys. I fully support this and I don't think that anybody should make decisions about their personal relationships based on what anyone else think is the norm. They're not in your relationship. So like just because we'll use this as an example, just because somebody comes home every day to the same partner and sleeps in the same bed doesn't

make them any happier than people that don't live together. I just would never make decisions based on what other people think I should be doing with my relationship. You're not in my relationship. Right. Yeah. I love that you said that. Okay. Before we like get into the whole episode, you know, we wrap up every episode with your submissions. And we asked you guys just in tangentially to the episode. Yeah.

Because we're talking about, you know, keeping your relationship alive and keeping it spicy. So we asked you guys how you guys spice it up with a long-term partner. And your submissions were so great. So we've made a decision to take those and do an entire bonus. episode with that. Yes. So coming in the first half of November, we'll be releasing a bonus episode. Usually it'll be like a Thursday, Wednesday or Thursday. And it will be about how to spice a relationship. Your guys submissions. We'll talk about, I have a funny, very embarrassing story to share.

We'll dissect some of what you guys say. They were just too good. We didn't just want to like run through them and not talk about some of stuff. So it should be like a really funny cut up episode with a lot of good takeaways too. Like a lot of really great actionable stuff. I mean, our listeners never let us down. But when we made that decision, Raina had this hilarious idea to go with today's episode. And it was to ask you guys without Googling what you think tantric sex is. It's so funny. I'm so glad you thought of this. I thought everybody knew what it was.

And then I realized, like, people really don't know what this is. I don't think, I'm still unclear. I'm still a little unclear. Listen, you guys, you'll Google it. But you submitted a lot of ideas. I think you should start because we have a, we have a Jenny submission. Okay. This is what you guys think tantric sex is.

Right on the gait. We have Jenny Jones. When you let them go down on you and you meditate so hard that you pass it, out, but really you're awake. Lots of talismans. Talismans. Talismans. Talismans.

No, it's a garb. Okay. Lots of talismans and fucking outside. Almost being at peak orgasm without orgasming. It's bullshit, but give me it. Isn't it like connecting on a deep emotional, spiritual level or some shit? And also you add sex.

I feel like a lot of chanting is involved. That cult sex thing. I've always assumed it's, doing yoga poses while fucking. That's, that's fair. It's kind of like holding in a sneeze, except the sneeze is an orgasm and something to do with dinosaurs. I was wondering, the dinosaur scene came up a lot. What? Like a whole lot. I was really surprised. I'm not sure like where tantric, maybe just like a T-Rex. I don't know. Maybe it sounds like a dinosaur. Okay. It definitely involves the taint, like fengue, but for your clit. Hippie sex.

The makeup sex after I threw a tantrum. Lots of tantrum stuff. Which makes sense. What tracks? Tantrum. Yeah, tantrum sex. When you come from eye contact, sounds like the sex people would have it, Burning Man. Okay, that makes sense.

As someone who fucked a Burning Man guy, you. I feel like... The way you pause, it went, you. I just want people to know it wasn't me. Like, I looked up with a bunch of Bernie Fibbuck, though. Oh, you're right. I don't even know what we're talking about at this point. I don't either.

I know exactly your time because you said he couldn't fuck. Actually, he comes up in this episode, and that guy definitely could not fuck. Well, this came up, of course. I said episode of sex in the city where the old man shoots come at Miranda's forehead, also Finch from American Pie. I forgot about that. That's a deep cut.

I know. It's a deep cut. I forgot about it too. Sex with no touching vibes only. Is that the episode title? Vibes only. Like a soul cycle class, but instead of riding a bike, you ride the dick. I got hit on at a bar by a guy who said he taught tantric sex and was a quote unquote master.

He wasn't. Something to do with chakras, a lot of bending, slow breathing, witches and leather. witches. And finally, men finally have an excuse for not getting women to orgasm. This guy just can't make you come and he's like, it's like, baby, it's tantric. He's like, sticking with it for four hours. You're not going to come, but it's going to be intense.

It's tantric. But she explains a little bit more about what tantric sex is. I just thought it was having sex for like seven hours without touching. Like not sex, but like, staring at each other and humming. Like prolonging. Prolonged orgasm. Yeah. I thought it was like edging for.

Forever. Forever. I had this guy told me that he'd been edging like all week before he like came over and like we hooked up. No one has ever come faster in the history of coming. But edging, who do we talk about it with? Connor. Yeah. It was Connor beaten. You're right. Yes. Oh my God. Sitting here getting so turned on. I was like, okay, next topic. Okay. Could you leave a second masturbating. Okay, guys. We have a very special guest in the house. with us today. She is an expert in intimacy, relationships, and sexuality. She is a speaker and counselor internationally whose work centers around the intersection of intimacy and embodiment. Her work with celebrities such as Will Smith and Gwyneth Paltrow, maybe you've heard of them, has been

widely featured. She is also the author of the book, The Wild Woman's Way, and most recently it has been featured on the Netflix series. Unwell, please welcome to the show, Michaela Bohm. Yay! Hi! Well, we're so glad to have you. Raina found you watching on Netflix. On Netflix, part of the Unwell documentary series about tantric sex. And I feel like you personally taught me a lot because I just thought tantric sex was five hour long sex sessions where you don't actually.

Where you have like five hour orgasms? I didn't know that much about it. Yeah, that's not really what it's about. But, you know, that sounds interesting enough that people would maybe buy it. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, why don't you tell us a little bit? I mean, Raina, she gave your Cliffs notes,

but why don't you tell us a little bit about what you specialize in, how you got into this? You have the floor. Raina likes to ask what gives you the right? Essentially, it's a whole realm of existence when you start looking at the body in relationship, right? So the body in relationship is a whole theme because we've become so heavy

and we've become so engaged with just our mind and mostly like we're doing right now, right? Our body's parked in a chair on a sofa or in a plane on a car and we think about things and we do things. And of course, when we then look at sexual engagement and I'm talking specifically, having pleasure, achieving pleasure alone tells you where that's, you know, going

because it's not an achievement, but that is how it's described. But then all the way from not wanting to have sex, being with somebody for so long that you don't feel like really engaging anymore, all the way to relational things and just general numbness and this order within the body. And what I mean by that is not just illness, but just not feeling good in the body and not inhabiting the body and not connecting the body you're not connecting with your partner the way you used to.

So that's my area. And that really includes everything from sex to heavy-duty relational engagement around how to be with another human, how to be with yourself, how to have a balanced life in which the body and the joys of the body. And that's not just pleasure, but also being able to feel intuition, stamina, optimal performance, all of that is kind of my ball of wax, however you want to say it. I actually is here too. We want to talk to you about intimacy today and how to identify the type of partners that you can achieve intimacy with because, you know, we all go on dates and people and think, is there anything deeper here? Is there anything that I can sort of pull out of this person

to make them my person? And then, of course, prolonging intimacy with a partner when all these things come into your life like career and jobs and things like that. I think people just think, Intimacy is sex, but to us it's so much deeper than that and could have nothing to do with sex and you say intimacy. So maybe we start there. That's a good place to start. And I feel the same way. To me, intimacy is connection, right? And it's connection.

It starts with yourself. It's your connection to yourself and you being able to feel yourself. And then out of that, being able to feel yourself, you can feel another human a lot more effectively. And certainly you can feel a sexual partner much more effective. And so intimacy always starts with feeling oneself because, for instance, if you go on a date, right, if you are completely shut off from feeling yourself, your emotions as well as physical warning signs or attractions, you can't make a good decision on someone. If you just make a decision in your head about this being a good person or bad person, you're totally neglecting two-thirds of

the equation, right? You could say one-third is a good person. You could say one-third is, your mind, one third is your emotions, one third is your body, just to put some theory on there. So you start with intimacy with yourself, and that has to do with sensitizing to the messages that you send yourself, which by the way is also the prime qualifier in boundary setting. You can't set a boundary when you don't know what's actually happening. So to me, real empowerment starts with being able to say a full-hearted and full-bodied yes and a full-hearted and full-bodied, no. But once we're there and we've done that, then the next thing is you can feel another person's body via your own body. And that's a very big tantric principle because you were talking about tantric sex.

So intimacy with another essentially is being actually able to feel that other person. and not I wouldn't say intuit, but feel in your own body what's happening over there, which then allows you to actually connect without a lot of preconceived notions, and you're actually just with that person. And there's a certain kind of starkness and rawness in actual intimacy, which is why people don't sometimes want to do it, because there isn't much, there's not many layers. It's just you and another person and whatever happens between the two of you.

And that can lead to sex. It doesn't always lead to sex, but you can be intimate with a family member as in you're really with them. You allow them to see you. You see them. You meet each other in a way that everybody feels connected and understood. That's one way, right? You can be intimate with a tree as in you can completely fall into nature and have an incredible

experience of joint openness with a sunset. let's say, right? For that, you'll have to actually sit and meet the sunset. I don't know if you've ever been in nature and it was so good that you could barely deal with it. That's your lack of intimacy with nature, so to speak. Yeah, I really get really intimate with sunsets. I actually do.

No one loves trees more than Ashley. And trees. Sunsets and trees are speaking of my language. So I think if I'm a single girl or a single person, I'm thinking, okay, you know, I understand what you're saying, you need to show up, really understanding yourself in order to set boundaries, in order to create intimacy with another person and have this, like, rawness between you.

But if I'm like a single person showing up for this date, how do I do that? How do I show up as somebody who's, like, open to that? And how do I express to somebody else that I'm, like, ready to have that type of intimacy with somebody? Like, are there physical cues, or there are certain things I can say or do? So coming to you being a single girl out there, right? So we've established that if you actually can somewhat feel yourself and you know who you are, then the next step is to really determine what do you want in relationship, right?

It's not enough to just be intimate with somebody. You want to be intimate with somebody with whom you have the style of relationship that you want. And this is one of those big, big, big problems because, typically the people that we find really interesting and sexy and fun are not necessarily always the people that are good for long-term relationship. Have you surveyed every person that I've ever dated? That's how it goes, right? And so, and mind you, there is a place for that.

At a certain age, you have to know what's out there. And you have to do a certain amount of, let's say, field research. so that you know what's out there so you know yourself, you also know what you like and don't like. So that's perfectly fine. But at some point, if you say you want a long-term relationship, let's say, right, or like a committed relationship of indeterminate length but committed, right? Then you have to go, okay, that's what I want.

Well, first step then is, am I somebody with whom, somebody can have that kind of relationship. This is usually a harsh moment in time. When you go, what do I want? Oh, I don't know, I want the man I can travel the world with and do wild explorations and climb Machu Picchu and, you know, rafts down the Amazon. Okay, cool. Right.

So that's what you want. But if you then go and then I want. the baby, we're in trouble because the man who is adventurous and goes down the Amazon with you is not necessarily the man who then wants to stay home and have a family and get gainful employment and whatever, right? Not necessarily. So meaning you have to be very clear on the purpose of your relationship and you have to be very clear on the long-term purpose of why you. You have to be very clear on the long-term purpose of why you are with this person. So if you know that two or three years from now,

you want to be with somebody with whom you raise children, you have to find somebody who is actually capable and willing to raise children with you. You can't hop on the raft on the Amazon and then be upset that the guy doesn't want to settle down and have a kid with you. Or conversely, if you are sort of like me and Ashley and you want this wild adventurous life,

you can't go on dates necessarily with people that want you to be their wife and the mother of their children tomorrow. That's right. Right. And so that's a super, super important piece in dating that a lot of people neglect. And it is weird. You don't sit down with a guy and say, so how soon do you want children, right?

But I mean, you don't want to necessarily do that, but you do need to find out pretty quickly are you aligned? And if you're not aligned, you have to have the guts, to not go there. And that's really hard because it's very, once the emotions get involved and even worse, once sex gets involved, you're going to go down some rabbit hole. And then five years later, you find yourself somewhere where you don't want to be.

So selection and actually having a purpose to the engagement is super important. Now, let's say you found somebody who is as adventurous as you and he doesn't want to have children. You know, there for instance, right, if you want to, for instance, travel with a man all over the world, you can't be with a guy who has three young children from a previous marriage at home. Because that's a pretty shitty thing to do to your three children if you're gone for a year or so, right? So you might be so perfect, but it's just not properly aligned. And that's one of the hardest things for women to do because we love potential. It's just love potential.

So my teaching partner Steve always says it's like we love the fixer-upper. And we go like, oh, this will be such a great apartment when I'm done with it. Right. And you kind of take the apartment. No one else knows because you know the value in it when it's done. But of course, that's not a nice thing to do to a guy, for instance, because you don't actually like who he's now. I don't want either of these things. I want a beautiful brand-new apartment and I want a fully formed man.

I don't want a fixer-upor at all. I don't want anything that needs to be fixed. I want it to be already set ready when it shows up. That's right. And I agree with you. And that's what you should go for. And then the next question is, are you the person who is ready to move into a brand new, fantastically equipped apartment?

Do I deserve this apartment? Michaela's like, I can tell you your apartment is nice, Ashley. And I don't know if you deserve to be in it. No, I'm just kidding. That's not what I'm saying. But can I afford it? Do I belong here? Like all these things.

Yeah. Am I should, is this a fit for me? Exactly. And it's not so much afforded in the financial sense, of course. It's like, are you capable of inhabiting this apartment? Right.

Are you there? I didn't feel like that the first week. I was like locking myself out, running around in my panties in the courtyard because I lost my key. But I've gotten out, now I'm good. I belong here. But the first week was a little touch and go. Yes.

And that is how it is with a man, right? That is exactly how it is with a man. Do you belong there? Is he the right apartment, so to speak, right? Can you handle it? Right. Yeah. That's really, really important.

And I think, I love what you said, because I think that there are definitely couples out there that want to travel the world and they're making decent money in their late 20s, early 30s, and they're like, we're going to go hit all these countries, knock them off the list, and then we're going to settle down when we're 35 and we're to start a family. And those are both of their dreams. But that maybe a little bit of the, I don't know if I want to say exception to the rule, but it's got to be talked about before you set out with the adventurous guy that's so hard to pin down. And then the time comes and you're like, okay, well, is it pregnancy time? Right. Right. And then he goes, no, but he doesn't go no right away.

And then you're 38, right? Right. Yeah. I think there's something to be said with working with cards that you're dealt. I've certainly be guilty of this and we've seen emails from our listeners that have said, you know, I've been dating this guy for five months and he won't commit to me and it's like, did he tell you that he didn't want to be in a serious relationship in the beginning? But he did. Because we know a lot of guys are kind of

fuck boys for lack of a better term, but I feel like they are pretty honest in the beginning. I'm not really looking for a relationship. I'm not looking for anything and you've stuck around for five months and put up with it. But, you know, I think that we shouldn't like enter down these roads of like, I'll

fix him, I'll fix this, I'm different. I'm the exception to the role. Even though we know that we're amazing, Ashlyn, that's right. I couldn't agree more, right? And particularly when you are actively, you know, it's one thing when down the road in a relationship, five, six years into it, stuff gets a bit bumpy because maybe, you know, you have different ideas of where it's going next or stuff like that. you definitely work on it then. But in the beginning, if five months in somebody hasn't committed, they're not going to. And you have to cut your losses and just move on

and do it swiftly, right? And particularly when you are in your 20s and 30s, you have so much choice. You don't have that much choice as life goes on, right? It gets less and less and less choice for a number of reasons. you know, you want to waste a few guys, so to speak, while you can and find the one who really works for you and not hang in there. But let's just say you found somebody now, right?

And now it's amazing. So there's this thing, right? And by the way, this is also super important. If you have sexual problems in the beginning, it is only going to get worse. I mean, we, yeah, we believe that. Yeah. Right. Well, I know you know that.

but there's a lot of people that I get to see. They're like working on their sex life three, four months into the relationship. And it's like all I want to say, which of course I can't because it's very unethical to do so. You know, people make their own decisions. But I want to just go, run! Right? Because you know it's not going to get better. So I'm just stating the obvious for whomever it's not that obvious.

So you want to have exciting, amazing sex to begin. with, an attraction, and it's all new and it's great and it's fun. And that's not to say that there couldn't be deeper moments or moments of working stuff out, but it should have a joyous, easy, easeful beginning. That happens. And the reason that happens, hopefully, is that two completely separate people come together and they are not yet knowing each other. And that's the whole idea, right? You have sex, you have long talks, you speak all night. You, you know, spend the entire weekend in bed telling each other childhood stories from your upbringing and whatever, right? That's the process.

You are two different people and those two different people have a strong arc of attraction because they're very far apart. You have one person and another person that's like a plus and a minus pole and you have a strong arc of electricity. That's what makes sex hot. You don't know the person. Essentially a stranger and that's really exciting. Do you feel like there are situations that you've seen where just that there is a lot of chemistry there. A couple really likes each other, but they just can't get there with the guy, for example. You know, he's just a little closed off.

He's afraid to let loose and be super vulnerable in the bedroom. And it's like, you know, the penis is working. The attraction's there. But he's just not there sexually. And you don't want to be like, okay, we'll go to therapy and come back to me when you're fixed. You know, so how do you create that? intimacy with somebody that there is a lot of potential and this is a good person and they're not totally boring and vanilla and the sex is never going to work, but like maybe they just haven't

achieved what they need to achieve to let loose and pleasure themselves in the bedroom, I guess. Yeah. Well, there's no one size fits all for that. As long as the attraction is there, so meaning the chemistry is there, it's usually really workable. I guess there are some people you do have to walk away from. I was sort of casually dating somebody who sucks as a human, being, but I figured we would just have sex for a while. And he really lacked passion in the bedroom. And I don't know. I was at a standstill.

There was nothing I could do to make this person a more sexual person, more vivacious, more vibrant, more excitable, talk more. I mean, it would have been a lifelong project. That wasn't my person, you know, and I think that... No, that wasn't your person. And that's the thing. You have to find your person. You don't want to make another person's person your person,

because the same way you don't enjoy it, they don't enjoy it either. I think that's probably most people's problem. I mean, I think that, like, you abandon the relationship pretty quickly in the beginning if the person isn't exciting and fun and fucking you the way they want to be fucked. But, you know, once all those sparks and exciting stuff sort of go by the wayside, and you do have, for our listeners, very young children, emerging careers,

all kinds of their stress parents that are getting older or things like that. You know, you fall into this funk. A pandemic. A pandemic. You know, you fall into this funk. And a lot of our listeners just said, you know, How do I re-invigorate that spark, basically?

Right. You know, we're not fucking three times a day anymore. But I love this person. Right. What do I do? That's most of what I have to work with, right? There is some stuff around dating and qualifying the right person and also becoming the right person for someone else, right?

Because when you spend all day at work in what I call the go mode, right? You go, go, go, go, go. Your body has that. kind of forward momentum and you are used to telling people what to do. Then you want to be with a guy who tells you what to do and you have to kind of reorient your body away from being the one calling the shots and telling him what to do. And if you don't have practice around that, there's a good chance that you're going to continue telling the guy what to do, which he will only tolerate if he's a weak guy. Otherwise, we want to talk about this. We want to talk about the go mode

in the flow mode. So we can talk about it now if this is where it fits in. We're talking about it just because that's important for why the spark goes, right? So essentially what happens is if your body isn't capable of switching from go to flow, and we can talk about how you switch from go to flow a bit later. But if your body can't be receptive, you're not going to be with somebody who takes you places. And that's super important, right?

And so in the beginning, when it's all fresh and new and exciting and you have the great chemistry and you know you get to know each other you have a lot of natural chemistry that has to do with being separate people and when you get together you have roles doesn't matter if it's same sex or you know whatever you have different roles one person is there so to speak the taker the other one goes along on the ride it's maybe not always the same but there's very specific ways that that chemistry builds Then, and you don't know each other, so it's exciting. Then what happens, classically, right?

You start having friends together, you do things together, you go away on the weekend together, then you have your rituals that you do together. Thursday evening, Game of Thrones no longer on. But, you know, like that kind of thing. You're on the sofa. You do your staying. Now you're moving in together. Right.

Maybe you start a business together because you're both so exciting. Exactly. Live work and play together. I don't know. Ashley doesn't even want to live with somebody. I don't want to live with somebody ever. So we can, you know, and I know, Rana said that that's something you touch on. But we don't have to get into it.

But my dream is like I live in the same neighborhood as my husband or whatever. But I am all for that. It works. But that's not how most people do it. Let's get to. Anyway, keep going. Right. We'll talk about that because that is actually a recipe for a good sex life.

Thank you. Okay, but if you're like me and you want somebody on top of you 24 hours a day. 24 hours a day, right? That's what I want. Yeah, you want that. And that's perfectly fine. But what happens is you come closer and closer and closer together. You have more sameness, sameness, sameness, sameness, sameness, sameness.

And you're now in the same place. You start resonating, right? You start doing things together. You finish each other sentences. If you have a good relationship, you kind of intuit what the other person wants. You have the same value. you have the same goals. That's super important, by the way, if you want children,

or run a business together or both, right? So as the relationship solidifies, more of the same needs to happen. The better your relationship functions, the less exciting the sex gets. Yes. I mean, it's like a dagger to the heart. But this is, I mean, I say this about my parents all the time.

My parents have been married for 40 years. We don't talk about their sex life. it's, I don't know. I mean, now it's been a long, they've been together a very long time, but I always said that the recipe for the success of their really happy, loving marriage was that they had all these separate things going on and they had all these separate hobbies and they travel separately. And, you know, they have similar friend groups and some similar hobbies,

but they really still live, not separate lives, but really, I mean, they have separate bedrooms. They have separate bedrooms, actually. Yeah, I mean, it's more of my dad's like sleep apnea and his snoring. But they really just always made it so. important that they have these separate things, like really separate. Like my dad skis all winter. My mom wants nothing to do with it. And she has all these things that he doesn't participate in. And so I just like, I love what the road we're going down with this like, the spark is there because

you're these different people with all these different interests and different lives. And the more you come together and the more you become one, which everybody's like, you want to become one. You want to be my best friend, my soulmate. The worst it gets for your sex life. And this is not something that people really talk about because it's kind of, it's kind of depressing. in a way. It is very depressing if you don't know the way out. Okay.

It's super easy to have a way out. But you're 100% right. My parents have the same thing, by the way. It's like your parents sound like my parents. My dad would go skiing. My mom would do other things that do separate vacations. They're separate friends.

They're still married, 50-something years into it. And they, I have not really actively talked with my parents. about their sex life in a long time. But I remember at some point, the issue came up

when they were in their probably 60s or so. And it was very, you could tell. They had an active kind of erotic engagement with each other, right? And that had to do with the fact that they were individuals choosing to be together and not one amorphous amoeba of, you know, same resonance. hoping to somehow still have great sex. That doesn't happen.

But take heart, you can really easily become individuals again. Well, tell us how. But Ray had a question. She had a question. Oh, it wasn't so much of a question. I read this thing, and it was sort of along the lines of what you guys were saying. Eric Lennonberg wrote the book, and he said, you know, we find these partners, and we say to them, I want you to be my best friend and my partner, and I want to everything about you.

I want this deep intimacy. But I want you to excite me. and I want you to surprise me, and I want you to be this sexual deviant. That's so much for a person to be for you. And that's really intimidating to be this safe place for somebody, but also be this like porn star whore in the bed. That's intimidating for me to figure out like, how do you do that after four years with somebody.

Well, you won't be able to do it unless you know what you're doing, right? It's not something that can happen naturally. And it certainly isn't something that we are taught. We are taught essentially that you're supposed to be with your best friend and one, and at the same time you should be hanging from the rafters, you know, doing the most outlandish shit. And then you should be raising children and also have founded some entrepreneurial marvel of a company. And that's what is expected of us somehow. But nobody tells you how to get there unless they sell you a coaching program of some

sort, right? Which you see on occasion where it's like, you get everything, you can't have everything. But what you can have is different things at different times. And that's the trick. And that's a big part of what I do in my work is teach people how to have the things that they want and delineate them so you can have the things you want at different times. Okay. You don't want to have. You don't want to have crazy sexual attraction while you're taking your toddler to kindergarten the first time. I think that's so much more understandable of, yes, there's points where you're raising children, but outside of children, pre-children, how do you navigate this? You know, you've been in a relationship for three, four, whatever years, you are, you know, your best friends, your soulmates, you finish

each other's sentences, like, how do you navigate this? So you still have good sex? Well, there's two ways. right. Ideally, you are preventative, but for some people that's too late now, right? But if you go into a relationship, you are very, very clear on what you want and don't want and you hold your individuality and you don't wrap yourself into another human completely in this strange, codependent way, right? That takes a little bit of strengths because it will mean that you're not, you know, you have to go out with a friend on occasion and you have to. to read a book that your partner hasn't read. And you have to have separate interests and spend time apart

and maybe not even live together. But that's on the extreme end, right? But Raina might not want that. I don't want it. You at least have separate rooms where in one room, you have your stuff that you enjoy and the other room, the other person has the stuff. So it's not all this weird compromise

where everything needs to be blended and whittled down and made the same, right? And that's easy to do. You can become your own person again if you've lost it by learning something new, leaving the house, meeting different people. The reason why people sometimes, when the spark has gone, go on vacations and stuff like that, or introduce other people into the relationship, which, by the way, never really works in the long run, is the newness factor.

It's about new. So when you know that, then you can introduce new when you need it to. You don't have to always be new. You can have the harmonious relationship and be joined on the hip and be best friends. But you've learned how to delineate. And so delineation means you talk about business separate from talking about who picks the dog up from the groomer, separate from a date night. You don't muddle it all together because that. that's incredibly unsexy.

You know, when people have these date nights or we should have sex, so let's make an appointment. And then they go to the fancy restaurant, which is always a bad idea, because who wants to have sex after you've eaten an enormous meal? No, I'm trying to fuck after a light salad. Maybe so sweet. Well, you should have sex first and we enjoy a great meal, right?

Yeah, it's such a good call. But before you go to dinner. That's right. And then you go to the, get a hotel, do you have your champagne. have the sex, then go to this nine-course dinner that they have to roll you out of the restaurant and then go home and both take a shit and then go to bed.

That's right. I'm so glad you said that because have you ever had friends that have done one of these. Anal before dinner. Stop it. I feel like you hear this story constantly of an anniversary or some special moment and they go to, Raina, this is your area.

A restaurant? No, like a really expensive bunch of courses. like, per se. It makes me want to die. Per se. Elinia, whatever it is. And they don't have sex on the on the anniversary or whatever.

Like I heard of they both have to like, one's taking a shit in the lobby and one's in the hotel bedroom because they're both like, they ate too much. You know, I never told anybody that's, I never told you. I never told it. I wasn't hiding it from you.

But I was engaged years ago. But we did not have sex tonight that we got engaged. And I was like, this is so crazy. Because we got a hotel suite at the plaza. and we held this like champagne. We had like a 10-course meal before before we went to the hotels.

We just didn't fuck. Well, no, of course not, right? So this is where you have to separate. Sorry, we really took you off track. No, but no, you're not taking me off track because that's the thing, right? People have these bizarre or fairy tale movie ideas, right, that have nothing to do with human physiology

or human biology or human psychology. Right? no, of course, it's a total freaking setup when you go, let's celebrate our anniversary. Let's have a 10-course meal. And then we have the best sex ever. It's like, it's just horrible. I've never thought about this right.

You're right. Make your man a drink and blow him and then go to dinner. Thank you. And then you go to dinner. Thank you. You were like perfect relationship with you. Yes, I know. It's crazy.

No one's dating. now went like, you know, because we, and but that's really important because the thing is also, particularly when you're in a long-term relationship, the only way you're going to have fun sex is if you get out of your rats, right? And how do you get out of your rats? You do things that you don't usually do. So, so you just have to shake things up. That's exactly right. And there's nothing wrong ever with making a guy a drink and giving him a blowjob. That's my dream. There's not alcohol. Hall and blowjacks?

But I just say this, because I always get this question, isn't that not empowered for a woman? It's like, that's the most empowered thing. You give something that he enjoys and you enjoy that you're giving him something he enjoys and hopefully enjoy it too. And he'll take care of you too. It's just like, be realistic. I find it very empowering.

I love it. I'm very determined by oral sex, giving oral sex. I love what you said about almost studying boundaries and like we don't talk about the kids or the dog or the work. or something like that. And I think maybe couples don't want to set boundaries because they think that's unsexy. And it's like, what's unsexy is that you go to your special date night and all you do is talk about work and the dog and blah, blah, blah. But so I love that. And I also think if a couple is saying like, we're going to have our date night and we're not going to talk about

this and this and they find themselves like, then what are we going to talk about? It's like, there's the problem and how here's how we're going to focus on this. So it's like whether you pull some list of topics from the internet, whether you you know, hear it from experts like you or one of the other experts we've had on the podcast or you realize that you have to read a book so you have something to talk about. It's like if you find that

if someone says to your partner, you can't talk about work or the pet or the kid or whatever it is and you find yourself wondering what am I going to talk about with my partner? That's probably where you need to start. That is exactly. And that's what I mean you have to become an individual again, right? I love that you said it's never too late.

Like you can, you've never lost yourself. if you don't want to. No, you don't. And I mean, it's as simple, like you said, as simple as reading something on the internet and then coming to your date night, right? And go, I read this thing. Did you know this?

Right. So immediately you are a different person to your partner. Immediately you're more interesting to your partner. Immediately a different dynamic loads up than, oh, I forgot the dog food. And did you know that, you know, so you have to set the boundaries and you have to, The better your boundaries are, and the clearer it's delineated, the more different aspects can be available.

You can be best friends. You can be parents. You can be. If you don't have to work with your partner, you shouldn't. It's really, it's a lot and it's not a good dynamic, right? But some people do work together and some people enjoy that. But I personally think it's, it makes, it's like. It's insane.

I wouldn't say it's insane. It's just an added... No judgment, but... It's just an added level of difficulty. And for most people, relationships are pretty difficult already. So it's like, well, if you are in like super great shape, put on that weight vest while you're running up Empire State Building. Right. You know?

But if you're not in great shape, maybe take the freaking elevator, right? And so, so meaning if you don't have to work with your partner, probably don't. I mean, it's just so, it gets so difficult in the dynamic. The exceptions, of course, to every rule, right? But there's nothing wrong even with, I don't know, whatever, take cards against humanity or whatever. I just found these. This is very kind of funny because I just got these to show a couple.

I found this in Australia. Spark romance. Yeah, start like this is great. just like, and if you guys are listening, it's just like a pack of cards. It says spark romance and there's probably what, just different conversation topics. Well, look, and there's this, this is like this little matchbox with these little things. And then it says different things here, you know. Trade a secret.

What's one thing you don't know about each other? Yeah, anything like that. I love this. And there's like there's 50 in there. Uh-huh. And just don't be scared to do this. stuff. It's like, what's the alternative is having this stale, boring sex life or relationship. But I wanted to see, you said there were two things. And I think is there, are we to the second yet?

Or was this, this was kind of all part of the first, like not losing yourself in someone, right? Not losing yourself in someone. But the other thing that people, I don't know why it's such a taboo and why people are so scared about it is get some good sexual skill. Right? It's like you wouldn't dream of driving a karate without having at least gotten a driver's license and practiced some. Right. So I don't quite understand why people get so freaked out by the idea that they should actually learn. We're sticking with a blowjob because that's such a perfect example, right? Learn how to give a good blow job.

Learn how to touch a woman's breasts in more than, you know, know, like one way, like learn some skills. There is nothing wrong with that. There's books for that. There's videos for that. And I'm not talking porn because that's not actual. It's a bad example. Yeah, it's a bad example, right?

How fun is that to learn something? Then you get to try it on somebody. Like, if I learn something new to do during sex, I don't even have somebody to try it on right now. Like, how lucky are you that you're in this boring relationship? But you just get to have somebody and try this stuff out. No, I'm just kidding. But like, yeah, it's like,

It's fun. Of course it's fun to learn a new skill and be able to pleasure the person you care about. And I love this notion of giving people permission to not know how to do stuff. You know, no one wakes up knowing how to be this adventurous sexual person. I mean, I think I like discovered myself sexually pretty young. I grew up with a parent who was a therapist in a very sex positive environment. I had a lot of sexual partners. I felt good about myself. Not everybody has that experience.

You're not just supposed to wake up one day and know how to do this shit. Exactly. And even if you had a lot of sexual experiences, there's always more to learn because it's an endless topic, right? A amount of bad ones. And that's the thing, right? Most people learn a set of skills and then they go at it with that set of skills and maybe they learn a few new because their partner says, not like this, not like that. But that's not exactly, that's like, you know, that's a kind of an amateur way of doing art, right? And when you want to be a real artist of sex and love and relationship, you might want to learn a little bit of skill. And you might have to practice the piano at some point before you play it at a concert. And there's nothing wrong with that. And so that's the other aspect. How do you keep the spark alive?

You continue learning. And you can, if you have an open-minded partner, you can make it a joint adventure, right? You can get a book. You can, you know, whatever. And like I said, it's not all about. technique. Sexual skill is more than technique. It's, you know, a kind of certain kind of a play or dynamic. It's how do you speak to somebody. How do you touch somebody? And some of it is universal and some of it is exactly for that person, right? But however, which way you want to slice it,

learn some skill. Super, super, super important. Are there places you like to appoint people? I'm sure there's a million resources. But as somebody just says, like, I'm not like a super sexual adventurous person, but I'd like to be. I'd like to learn how to do this thing, touch a breast. And there are places that you like to point people. Well, I mean, super simple things are like the joy of sex, which is a very old book, right? That's been updated a few times, which is a great getting it on is a really good one. But, you know, also pick an area that you don't know, you know, how to do it and Google how to do X, Y, Z. And you'll find a million resources and instructional videos. And that's really what's quite cool about it is that you can find something

in any domain that you want to experiment. And it's kind of good to try things that you thought you'd never want to try because it expands your horizons. And I'm glad that you said porn is not the first stop on your road to learning things because I watch a lot of weird shit that I would never do or want to attempt to do that I don't know that I want my partner. to do. I don't think that's like realistic, you know, if you can't attain that level of sexuality. Well, I think that's like you're learning how to drive by watching Fast and the Furious. You know, like I think it's like porn. I love an analogy. Like porn is like, it's entertainment, right? It's not tutorials. So you want to learn how to drive. You, you know, go to driver's ed. You don't turn on Fast

the Furious 12. That's such a perfect analogy and that's exactly how it is. And also, of course, like you said, it's entertainment. So the people in there are not displaying normal human reactions, right? That's what I was getting at. Yes. So, so you can't learn how to drive watching the Fast and the Furious 12, right? You can't. And that's in general, and that's what I said in the very beginning about my domain is the body, right?

The body and relationship. You can't armchair your way into good sex. You can't think or read about good sex. Your body has to actually practice being sensitive, navigating, knowing yourself, having an honesty with your own body, and then connecting with another body. And that requires skills. And that's like you don't get into the Maserati,

the first day of driving school, right? And the same way, your body needs to learn how to do these things. And so you have to practice. So that now brings us to go. and flow. Okay, perfect. Yeah, this is, I really am interested in this because I think, you know, Ray and I are, you know, successful, independent women and we tell people to do a lot and we kind of just are, I guess, aggressive in our career in the best way. You know, we're ambitious and motivated and we're in charge. You should be able to kick ass and take names later as a woman and also be as submissive

and wild in bed as you want to be. That's. Amen. A fully empowered human being, right? Mm-hmm. Right? If you want to be wild and sensual and kind of taken by your sexual partner in bed, you should be able to do that, right? But you don't have to be ditsy, unorganized, all over the place,

crazy woman at work, or general in bed. You don't have to. You can have both cultural. motivate both and use it as you need it. And then we don't have to have this stupid conversation about, oh, you're not masculine enough or you're not feminine enough. It's not about that. It's you want to have it all available,

but you don't use a hammer when you have a screw. And you don't use a screwdriver when you have a nail, right? And so that's all you want to know. if you as a human being, man or woman, want to be in sex, right, predominantly. And I'm not talking all the time, but predominantly. If you predominantly want to be the one who kind of makes the thing happen and is the penetrator, and I'm not even talking physically penetrating, but it's like the one who drives the thing and pins it down and man handles it in every which way or woman handles it in every which way,

you are the goer, right? You are the one who gives the direction. In sex, now in your life, you should be doing go and flow however you want to, however it is appropriate. So you want to kick ass in business because that's what one does in business. If you want to kick ass in your sexual relationship, then you need somebody who wants to surrender to your kick-assness because it takes one of each to make for good sex. You can't have two people go at it. You know, that's like two heads banging together.

You can't have two people flow, but that's not very sexy. It's just sensual and cool and, you know, like. That's not so unsexy. Very unsexy, but some people like that. Yeah, for sure. Right. It's kind of a burning man-esque kind of. Yeah.

That's making love. people never fuck. They just make love forever. With lavender balls. Exactly. That's not what we're talking about. There's a place for that, but that's not what we're talking about. What we're talking about is one person drives the thing, the other person goes along for the ride. It's really amazing. Maybe then you switch, but whatever.

It takes one of each. So if you are in go, by definition, men and women alike, right? your energy has to kind of compress and go forward. That's how you go, right? If I stand up, I have to kind of gather my body and my energy and stand up. If I talk to you, I have to have an idea where it's going. So the go mode organizes things along a trajectory, so to speak. When you do that, your body gets a certain kind of a tightness

and you get a lot of energy in the head, shoulders, jaw, neck, eyes, brain, right? Because that's where you need it. I don't need my body right now so much. I'm talking with you. I'm thinking. I'm speaking. I'm looking at you. I'm making gestures, right?

So my energy will go there. If too much happens, it pools and you might have a tight neck and shoulders and a clenched jaw and a headache and stuff like that. That's from all the energy going up. Good to get shit done. But now you want to flow in bed with your chosen partner. You need to bring that energy back down where it's needed, which is your lower body, your hips, your thighs, your genitals, men and women alike. You have to get into the body to be in the flow of the situation and have sensual awareness and sexual excitement and stuff like that.

So when you're a woman, we're talking now specifically a woman who likes to be. out there in the world kicking ass and being successful, you're going to spend a lot of time in that body shape of the go and the emotional shape of the go and the mental shape of the go. Now, though, most women who really go and kick ass and want to relax with a partner and be a little bit told what to do to various degrees, right, and just enjoy and flow and feel. Well, if your body isn't used to that, that's a little bit like if you've never ridden a bike, you won't know how to ride a bike.

I don't know how to ride a bike. That's a perfect example. You can write a stationary bike. You're getting there. So then if you can, you want to ride the bike all day long, but you don't know how to. You can't expect your partner to teach you how to ride the bike while you're riding the bike, right? Because some women go, well, just do me. Well, you can't do somebody who doesn't have an opening there, so to speak.

Right. you'll have to be able to relax out of the heady mode into the body, which is the flow mode, where there's energy moving through your body and you feel things and you have sexual pleasure and sensual pleasure and there's a bit of play and it's creative, right? It doesn't mean that you don't have a head. It's just you're bringing the actual physical energy down.

And so you have to have practiced that so that's available to you. So you might not have ridden the bike all day, but when you get on the bike, if you know how to ride a bike, could just write, right? And that's the perfect example for go and flow. It's not that you're too masculine. You might just be a bit weak in the feminine if you want to go with masculine feminine terms, meaning your head, shoulder, neck, go muscle is more developed than your flow sexual pleasure muscle, right, just because you don't use it as much. But that doesn't, that there's no

qualification of masculine feminists, just are you in go, are you in flow? You have to practice flow so that at some point you can switch from flow, from go into flow if you want to do sex in flow or enjoyment or whatever. Yeah, and I think a lot of women struggle with this, you know, really independent, successful women of like, how do you even outside the bedroom kind of let a man take control when you're not used to letting anybody take control when you're like a really controlling person that's used to kind of being the boss, which I would equate myself to that. Like it's kind of you have to, and I've had to work on this, make sure that, and not make sure like you're, you know, make sure to pander to a man's feelings or, you know, but make sure they feel

needed and that they feel that they can do something for you. I've gotten the critique in past relationships of like, that I just don't really need this person and, you know, you just don't, you're used to doing everything for yourself. And, you know, I remember telling this to a girlfriend, not too long ago that this guy she was seen, they just got married actually. I feel like I may have helped a little bit with them at the beginning because she was moving and he offered to come help her move. And she said,

no, because she just wants to be a person that wants to do everything for herself. And I don't need anybody to help me. I'm used to doing things to myself. And it's like, just let him come carry a box or something. You know, like he offered,

like it's almost insulting to someone's quote unquote masculinity, whether you're male or female or whatever you identify with, that you want to help and you want to do something nice for this person that you care about and they're telling you like, no, I don't need you. And I feel like it's a constant, I don't want to say struggle, but it's something I'm constantly aware of and working on. Yeah, and women say that's all the time. Are men afraid of powerful women?

Are they afraid of women that are successful? They make money. And I think that you guys both hit the nail on the head, which is that, no, I think women, I think men, not all men, some men find it very sexy that you're independent. You can make your own money. You're a successful person. You've a lot to talk about.

but everybody wants to feel like they're needed by their partner. No one wants to feel like they're superfluous to the relationship and you're just showing up as sperm donor. Yeah. And that's why you see then the guys, the really good, powerful guys. Sometimes you go, why is he with her? She's like totally inept. Yes.

She actually accepts his gifts, right? Gifts as in talents, right? And his help. And that's worth a lot, right? And now, so how you do that is, well, first of all, I want to say, and this is very, very important, when we look about empowerment, right? You can only relinquish something you've had before, right? So it's useless to give it over to a guy if you never had it, right?

So if you don't know how to carry a box or move yourself, you should learn how to do that. Now, once you can take care of yourself, why not let somebody contribute. I love that. That's how I try to live my life. I love being taken care of, contrary to popular belief. Because you know how to do it. So when you give it up, it's actually double sexy.

And showing appreciation, I think, is so key. Like, I think that, like, on both sides, showing the appreciation and the positive reinforcement is, I think it's like if I could drill anything into someone's head, it's that. Yeah. And me too. I want to feel appreciated. I hate when people, you do something nice

somebody and you feel like it was taken for granted. You do know that the single, the single highest qualifier of successful long-term relationship is generosity. And generosity, not as in gifts, right? It's not the Tiffany box. It's the acts of service,

so to speak, the giving, the appreciation, the praise. And I can't tell you how little people praise each other. Right? Because it's always, yeah, it is very, very sad. It's always like, did you do, did you take the trash out? Did you do this? It's never, wow, thank you. And I'm not just, I'm proud of you. And, you know, I think that sometimes for somebody like, I think I need a little more emotional support than Ashley does, but somebody like us that doesn't really need, we don't need money and we don't need guidance in our careers. You know, we're in our mid-30s, we've gotten it. You know, we've got it. You should be in your mid-30s and sort of figuring it out a little bit. But, you know, if you know, if you show up to a relationship and you don't need a lot, is there ways that you can show your partner other than just saying thank you sometimes that you do need them? Well, this is a big one, right?

And this is what this goes back to, how do you choose a partner, right? Ideally, you find a partner who has something or knows something or can contribute something that you don't have as much off, right? So I just this morning worked with a couple where he is just really, really talented in the physical domain, right? Like he's very, you know, he's an ex-surfer and like big wave surfer and stuff like that. And so he's just really, really good with nutrition and sports and conditioning and whatever.

And she likes it, but that's not her area of expertise. And so how they have it is that he really contributes to her by making the shakes and doing the thing, not from a place of your fat or whatever, right, but from a place of really bringing his expertise and when he does, she really had to learn how to be super happy about that. And she is, but she wouldn't show it, right? So ideally, you pick a partner who has something

that they can contribute to you and you take it. But it's very simple. From a man to a woman, it's very easy to see. two women with each other don't do it so much because two women with each other what we tend to do is we go around in circles and it's incredibly pleasurable. So for instance, classic example,

this is an example. If I call my business partner with whom I have a very close relationship because we travel together when it's not a pandemic and stuff like that, and I go, I had a horrible day, I had like seven calls and the microphone broke and, you know, whatever, right?

He will go, well, do this. We boot the computer. Go and rest, right? You now need to calm down and it irks me to no end because I just want to be commiserated with, right? Because with a girlfriend, you know, she immediately goes, God, don't you hate when that happens? that's horrible, right? And then you talk a little bit about it and then you detox and you move on with your life.

But a man towards a woman will tend to fix things. And so if you can catch that moment where you want to throw that off and instead go, oh, okay, I'll try that, thanks. Then you are suddenly in the dynamic of depreciation. He was actually able to contribute something to you. It's a minor thing. But if you, instead of going, yeah, I did that, you go, oh, okay, I'll try that.

Or, oh, wow, thanks. Suddenly you're in a totally different relationship. And sometimes it's just practice. And sometimes it's just training, practice, maybe not what's natural to you. And you just have to work on it. Not lie. But like, just, I only want to say play the game, but like just realize that's strengthening your relationship, just like, just do it.

But I personally like when men step in to fix things for me. My love language is like, you know, one of them is the services. It's like, please do things for me, hang the curtains, fix my computer, all these things. So I don't, I'm very much like I will take it. But you see you see things happen. I watch couples sometimes that have been together a long time and they get into that nagging thing and you see one of them try to do something for the other. and the, I mean, it tends to be maybe a man did something,

but he didn't do it exactly right, and his wife doesn't, she isn't appreciative, she tells him what he did wrong, and I'm just like, this is bad. I feel like I'm watching the relationship deteriorate in front of my eyes. And so- Exactly what happens. Yeah. Exactly what happens.

That's how a relationship deteriorates. Most of what makes it the relationship work is simple discipline of keeping your mouth shut at the right moment. Yes, just, just, you don't need to say anything. Like it just, I think, you know, I catch myself all the time of like, you can think like, how could you say that or think that and just like, does need to be said. Why? What's the point?

Make somebody like you care about feel bad? That's right. And by the way, that's part of going from go to flow, right? It's like you feel deeper than the immediate need to stick your or. Be an asshole. Yes. Well, but just tell how it needs to be done, right? You can, and that's the flow.

flow is you just let the thing unfold. And if you let the thing unfold and you actually feel the intention behind the thing, even if it's not perfect, you're suddenly in a place of generosity, right? You can receive it and give it. And that's the important piece is you can't actually receive anything if you can't at least give enough space for somebody to do something to you or guide you maybe in a clumsy way or whatever. Right. So, um, if you want full-bodied enjoyment and also sexual enjoyment in a long-term relationship, you're going to have two praise and keep your nagging to a minimum, right, as a means of making space for somebody else in that relationship.

If you know how to do it all and you tell somebody what to do at all times, you're going to get a very, very weak, wimpy partner and nobody wants that. It doesn't want to fuck you. I don't want to fuck them. I love this idea of also identifying a couple things that your partner does. And even the small thing you said about making shakes and helping somebody be healthier, like identifying a couple things. Like maybe I don't need career advice.

But there are a couple things that you really can do. And being vulnerable enough to lean into those things. It can go both ways. So you have to identify the things that your partner can do for you that they actually want to do for you. Okay. And that's really, really cool then. And so then you look. to somebody for guidance or support in an area where you could help yourself, but they're just

better or they enjoy doing it, right? And this is also really important when we now talk about long-term relationship and not girding into one of these masculine, feminine, you know, gender wars is whoever is good at something should be doing that, regardless of its considered masculine or feminine. It's such a bizarre thing when women who are really good, like I for instance, am really good with money. It's one of my superpowers. I know how to make money. I know how to spend money. I most definitely know how to spend money, but I also know how to make money and I can navigate money and I know what to look for and like I have a thing. I like that's a domain I really, really enjoy.

So why would I give that up if I'm with somebody who is maybe extremely good at, like, let's say, physical stuff, right? But not that good with the management of money. I'm not saying deadbeat or can't make money, but not good with, you know, looking at something and figuring it out. If we were in a relationship, it would be really stupid if I make him manage the money because he's the man. Of course.

When I'm so much better at it, right? So it's really not, that's why I don't like masculine, feminine. You have to play to your strengths in relationship, and you have to know when to be in go and when to be in flow and make sure that when you want to have sex, one of you is in go and one of you's in flow. Absolutely. And there's certainly more, we're just in a time

where a lot of the general's are just out the window. I mean, there's, you know, stay-at-home dads and same-sex couples obviously goes out, say, and transgender. So it's kind of like the whole men do this, women do this, is just kind of BAS at this point.

Anyway, and it's also so restrictive because guess what? And this is like porn, right? I always call it the lifestyle porn. Like Instagram, for instance, as much as I love Instagram with the best of them, it's lifestyle porn. It's exactly as noxious and

toxic as actual porn. to your self-image and your behavior, right? And so a lot of our relationship constructs are like lifestyle porn, right? They haven't worked for anyone, really, right? It's a fairy tale, people, you know, and you got it from a fairy tale, and the prince comes on the white horse and sweeps you up and whatever. That has never worked outside of the entertainment, right? And so what we still orient our relational life

to paradigms that had nothing to do with love, that had nothing to do with a good sex life, but to do with economics and family relationships and business. And people didn't get married for love for a long time in history. Very few people got married for love. And even if they got married for love, they didn't expect that sex, love, business, child-rearing, and international superstardom all came in one package, right?

It's like super super unrealistic. And so the more we can do away with gender roles and classifications and just have each person develop their gifts and play to their strengths and find somebody with whom they can play the full spectrum off-low and go with their natural talents, then it's all good. to say it very casually. Yeah, as soon as I find somebody that goes and flows with me as well as Ashley,

if it has a penis. I'm going to marry that person. Rayna and I have the perfect relationship. We just don't want to have sex with each other. Well, we've had you for a long time. We haven't really talked on tantric sex. So would you be able to just kind of enlighten people on what that is when it's useful and then obviously they can tap into your resources for more?

But, you know, again, we opened the episode with saying like people have this kind of weird view of it. I picture that blowjob and sex in the city of the movie, the tantric sex. The edging somebody? Yeah. So I just, we want to hear just, we haven't ever discussed tantric sex one time on this podcast. So while we have you, could we just kind of give

some clips notes on what it is? We should have a, we should have a whole good discussion about it, but essentially everything we talked about falls into that category, which is the understanding that it takes a go and a flow, right? So what makes sex tantric is not,

the duration, which is what people always consider, but the knowledge that it takes two pieces to play together, right? So it's that whole dynamic of creating strong attraction by being separate and then kind of melting together in a moment of kind of oneness and dissolution and then playing in that domain again. And the actual skill set, right, which is what people talk about when they talk about tantric sex. The actual skill set has to do with learning how your own body functions and learning how somebody else's body functions. So you can engage in that emotional, erotic play

without your body giving out on you very quickly. Right. So meaning to be, you know, to be very specific, if you want to have like a full on engagement with somebody that's not only sexually fulfilling but also emotionally fulfilling, you probably need more than a few minutes. Yeah, I don't know, I only need a few minutes with my vibrator, but yeah, I hear you.

I'm manually masturbated today and it took forever, but I liked it. I earned it. Yes, exactly. Well, so that's the thing, right? So you want to have a prolonged experience with a partner, if it's the right partner in a connected way. So how do you do that? Well, you also learn some skills on how to be with that partner

without coming in 20 seconds and then turning over and wanting a drink, right? But for that, you have to have emotional capacity. You have to have mental capacity and you have to have bodily capacity. You know how it goes when you want more pleasure but you can't actually handle it. You don't have enough muscle or enough capacity.

And the same is true with the emotion. Like sustaining the depths of intimacy that most people desire take some practice. And so in tantric sex, what you do, it starts with all the things we talked about, right? Not having resentment, having clear communication, having that play of giving and receiving, and then having some sexual skill.

And then you can come together and you can dedicate some time opening layers and layers of both physical pleasure and emotional depths. And nobody starts there. So when we look at tantric sex per se, we're looking at all the things we've just talked about as a skill set that you work together where you have deeper connection. Often you see in these workshops, even in the Netflix thing, there was a second of people in my workshop of looking into each other's eyes. That seems so trite. But just notice what happens when you really look at someone not joking and you're not giggling and you're not looking away.

You're not making a comment. You just let yourself be seen. Like when I was saying being vulnerable, right? So that's a tantric sexual skill is to behold some. somebody and be beholden by someone without fuzzing out or giggling or turning away. And then that creates a whole depth of uncomfortable but beautiful thing that you can work with. So it's not about sexual skill per se, even though it's good to have sexual skill. It's about the ability to sustain that depth of connection and intimacy in the sexual realm.

Ability to sustain pleasure for longer periods of time. It's ability to have pleasure in more parts of the body at the same time, right? Not just localized where your vibrator is, but in your fingertips, you know, or your tip of your nose or whatever with another partner and so on and so on. So that's what tantric sex is about is the deepening of your capacity in relationship with another human with whom you want to be sexual with. I love that and you see even on silly dating shows, you know, that I watch or whatever it may be, they'll go to like a tantric sex workshop or just a sex workshop, whether it is titled as tantric or not.

And the exercise is just sometimes like sitting on the floor across from each other. Maybe you're like legs are wrapped around each other. Maybe not just looking into each other's eyes. Because I mean, think about even past partners. Have you ever done that? Have you ever like that looked into each other's eyes? Like it starts weird. and then it gets hot.

And I think it's just like, you might not want to ask that. So maybe now you're thinking you want to do this with your partner again. You just send him to this podcast, send him to an article, send them something from Michaela. Like we always say, like put it on us,

put it on some other expert. It deepens that connection. And it's not something a lot of people would think to do. And I can only benefit your level of intimacy for sure. And what better way to re-sexualize your partner when it's gotten stale, when all you talk about is work and your dumb kids,

what better way to resexualize this person and make them different and start like dating again? That's right. Well, great. Well, I'm glad we wraps it up on the tantric. This has been so wonderful, Michaela. Thank you so much for chatting with us. Oh, thank you for having me.

Yes, we're really happy to have had you. I think our listeners will definitely really love to know more about you in your work. So if you can tell us where they can find that, what your website is, your Instagram. We mentioned your books. If you've anything else, please tell people where they can find you. It's michela boom.com. And there is actually, because we just talked about this, in the beginning of the pandemic,

we made these tiny little toolkits with like five-minute exercises, just three or four. I don't know actually how many, oops. Very small exercises, one of which is a guided eye-gazing exercise. It's like 37 bucks. You can download the entire thing. It has instructions. It's called the intimacy toolkit, and then we have an embodied tool that has to do with pleasure.

And then I do, you know, usually we teach live workshops, but that's, of course, not happening. So there is, I have a pleasure course, and I have a kind of a women's, like, general, going from go to flow and back and exploring yourself course. They're downloadable, and they're six months long, and it's like this whole, thing that you can immerse in.

And there's, of course, the book, The Wild Woman's Way. There is loads and loads of free information on my website as well. I record all of my lectures and we post them as podcasts. So you can listen to me, answer couples questions or answer women's questions. There's, I think, 80-something hours on iTunes as Stitcher and SoundCloud. It's all on my website. And there's a lot more coming in the next two months because I've been busy during the pandemic. Yeah, great.

Good for you. Well, I love this. So a wealth of information for you guys to seek out for yourself or you and your partner. Well, again, thank you so much. We'll direct everybody there and to get to know you and your work better. So thanks for joining us. Thank you so much. And you guys know where to find us.

Girls Gotta Eat Podcast.com. Girls Got to Eat Podcast on Instagram. Ash Hess, reina. dot greenberg on Instagram. Girls on our score got eat on Twitter and YouTube.com slash girls got to eat. That's it. Have a good week, guys.

Bye.