Girls Gotta Eat - Repairing the Mother-Daughter Relationship with Therapist/Author Lori Gottlieb

Episode Date: September 19, 2022

We are honored to be joined again by psychotherapist and bestselling author Lori Gottlieb to discuss a topic so many can relate to: The mother daughter relationship. Lori expertly and compassionately walks us through how to navigate a strained relationship with a mother (or parent) if you have resentment about your childhood/their parenting, feel like they are critical or competitive with you, are lacking boundaries or the tools to express your feelings to them, or just want a better relationship in general. We are also discussing our relationships with our moms; and before we jump into the topic, we're opening up (maybe too much) about some body stuff, unpacking a spooky situation, and recapping Selling the OC. Enjoy! Follow Lori on Instagram @lorigottlieb_author, check out her podcast Dear Therapists, and visit her website for more. Follow us @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit our website for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Shop Vibes Only. Thank you to our partners this week: Hello Fresh: Go to hellofresh.com/gge65 and use code GGE65 for 65% off plus free shipping. NextEvo: Get 25% off your first order of $40 or more at nextevo.com with promo code GGE. Babbel: Go to babbel.com/gge for up to 60% off your subscription. Osea: Get 10% off your first order with promo code GGE at oseamalibu.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Wait a minute. Why do I have to do the first thing? Why can't my mother approach me? Why can't my mother apologize? Why can't my mother see what she did or didn't do that I needed? Come back to another episode of Girls' Gotta Eat. Welcome back. Coming to you from L.A. In the same bed together. We've been recording a lot of episodes in bed together. Is this what's become of us? We do a bed podcast. Yeah, we're all the way across here at one corner on the other one. Ashley just wants to let you know she's not touching me. But we, so we're staying at the Holloway house in West Hollywood, so much better than the other hotel we used to stay at in West Hollywood that will remain nameless. And they just, this woman just brought a bar cart up to the door.

And every day between five and six, they make you drinks at your door. It's like table side guacamole, but drinks to your, I'm shook by this. I heard it happen yesterday and I'm on antibiotics. I'll talk about it. We'll talk about why. I actually can't drink. So I'm not drinking. But I was like, this is insane.

Just a full bar to the door. Well, I also in solidarity did not get a drink. I got pineapple juice just in case anyone wants to lick my pussy later. I was literally just going to say, because you want your com to taste good. The only people that I sleep with here, one of them is it Burning Man at the other one? That's about right. That's about right. I can hear the cart down the hall.

Like, it is iconic. I know. I love this hotel so much. And this is where we're going to stay. Yeah. Not at the other place. Yes. So we have a really great episode for you guys today.

It's really special and close to our hearts. and we're really, I already get emotional about it. It really evokes a lot of emotion. Yeah. It's really personal to me. And every episode we do is very personal to me. But it's really, it's a special episode. We're excited and we have some really fun announcement for you guys.

But we just want to say one thing about last week's episode. Yes. So we did receive some feedback on last week's episode and we did add an addendum addition to the end of the episode. So you can hear it after the music. and I just wanted to say that we thank those of you who took the time to write us thoughtful messages and emails, and we did think a lot about this and reflect on it and we're keeping the feedback in mind going forward. And I just, I mean, we really do think the world of our audience, most of you guys,

and we like brag on you all the time and we don't take you for granted and we certainly don't want to be out of touch with you. So thank you for listening and for your thoughtful messages. And as always, for those of you who wrote into us in regards to last week's episode or previous episodes and said that we inspired you or helped you in some way, truly nothing means more to us than that. And it is an honor to positively impact people's lives. And we're grateful that we get to do it. Wow, I have nothing to add.

You said it's so beautiful. So I totally co-signed what Ashley said. And thank you for the messages and the feedback. And thanks for supporting the show. And we love you guys. Okay, so something else happened in this hotel that I wanted to address. I'm so glad this came up. Okay, so let me just explain what happened.

First of all, Ashley will send me text messages. Well, you don't know what happened. This is a surprise me, and I'm really excited, actually. So what happens a lot is that I will send Ashley a text message. She'll respond. She'll say something and I will never respond. I go to sleep within minutes. Yeah, right for me.

I'm not great for me. I'm not being rude. No, it's fine. But, okay, I want to read you guys as text messages that came in last. night. So at 1135, I text Ashley. Is this car alarm serious? She texted me right back. 1142. I didn't hear it. She was doing stuff, blah, blah, blah. Okay. I was doing stuff. Why don't you say what I would, why do you read it? Was doing appeal. I was doing appeal. I don't know if that is because of skin care. Oh, okay. You had no idea what I said when I said I'm doing appeal. Okay. Wow. So this is four

in the morning. I read her next text messages. I woke up in the middle of the night. I read them. she says. Also, I think this hotel is haunted. Is there an orange on your bar? Tell me right now. I'm in bed by myself and out loud laughed and tell me right now. Because she is thinking that 10 minutes prior, I have texted her is this car alarm series and I am ignoring her. Tell me right now. I guess that's my new catchphrase. So aggressive. Okay. So here's what happened. Okay. I said that I think this hotel is haunted and kind of jokingly and I do kind of think that. There's been some like weird noises, but then I had a memory unlocked. So two nights ago, as I'm falling asleep, you know, you're in that very weird in between falling asleep stage and I hear the sound of what can only be one thing. And it is a piece

of fruit falling on the floor. Okay. I swear to God. Okay. And that's a sound that I recognize. And I'm just so sleepy and loopy that I was like, Oh, a piece of fruit fell off the bar. Okay. The fruit can't fall off the bar. There's a tray. There's a ridge. There's no way.

It's like fully like there's no way. Yeah. There's a, it can't roll off. There's a full blown barrier. Yeah. So and I was like, whatever. Woke up, had to forget about it. And then it was a memory unlocked.

And I was like, I swear to God that there was an orange and a lemon and a lime on that bar when I checked in, which there often is. There often is. There's all three. Like I remember coming in here. I'm not kidding. and seen all three of those fruits and then heard this orange drop in the middle of the night, and then the orange is gone. Did you look under the thing?

It's nowhere to be found, but I don't know if the housekeeper took it or something like that. It is nowhere to be found. A ghost picked it up and fell and put it on the floor. Okay, so I will co-assigned. We've stayed at this hotel before. This hotel group, there's always an orange, a lemon, and a lime in the hotel, always. Yeah. And there is no longer one.

And it can't go under the dresser because an orange is too big for it. So here's what I think. this is where it's going to get weird. I think Dewey was visiting me. Why? I think Dewey was visiting me for a couple things. I've been talking about as well too much. Dewey, and if any of you guys are new here,

Dewey is my dog that died. If you're like, who was Dewey? So I had a really realistic dream about Dewey a couple nights ago. And then randomly yesterday on Instagram, I saw this dog that was up for adoption named Dewey from Georgia. I got Dewey in Georgia. And then Orange, Dewey was orange. I'm not.

I started thinking about it and then my body was tingling. Like my fingers were tingling. I don't really know. I think I kind of believe that. I think he came to visit. You've been talking about his little too much. You say, he's the love your life. We've been talking about him so much how much I love his vibe.

Dewey is the love my life as well. It's the second love my life. But I think he heard that and he didn't like it. He poked you like on Facebook. Yeah. So anyway, I just think it all adds up. Dog's don't have thumbs, though. Like, how do you pick your orange job?

He just rolled it off. Like, it's like a ball that a dog would play with. He just rolled it off the dresser. And then he ate it? The housekeeper might have taken it. You know what I mean? Oh, I see what you're saying. I didn't look in the morning.

I forgot. I mean, you know that stage when you're like not fully there. You're like, am I dreaming? Am I awake? I got there at 1136 last night. I never responded to your text message. But I'm curious. I am just so unfazed by.

stuff. Like when I'm in a hotel, I'm like, I'm safe, everything's fine. If I heard a weird noise in like a house in the woods, I would freak out a little bit more. But I mean, the fact that I literally heard what could not have been anything other than a piece of fruit falling in the floor. And I was like, whatever. Went to sleep. That is so funny. I totally agree with you also. I do feel safe here. In the woods or in a house, I would like lose my shit. I'd be panicked and I'd be like in a corner crying for the rest of the night. Yeah. Okay. He doesn't have thumbs, but I see what you're saying. It's like a ball. He dropped it. He could bat it off. Yeah.

Okay. All right. Also, he's a ghost. I think this happened. I think you were talking too good about a soul. Stop, right now? Stop saying that. But anyway, it was good.

That is so funny. I think it was like a, you know, mad or jealous visit. No. I just am like, why is he in L.A.? I think you would have dropped your skin curroutine on the floor or something. That was a jealous visit. No, it's an orange. I'm just saying he would have dropped that on the floor if it was like if he was mad at you.

Oh, if he was mad. He picked something harmless. He would have broken something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he was like, I'm orange. Here's the orange.

That is so funny. Thank you for telling me that. I was like, what could this be about? Tell me right now, it's midnight. You have to know if there's an orange on the bar. Okay. Well, we're going to further humble ourselves and tell you a story. Oh, my God.

Listen, we both got milked this week. Milked. I said yesterday when I was at the urgent care, out of state, away from home, with my ass in the air. I'll explain. I don't know when I'm going to be ready to talk about it. Here we are. I'm talking about it.

To all of you guys, I wasn't even ready to tell my friends. And now I'm like, I got to tell the listeners. It's been so funny because I had this experience last week where my surgery tapes were taken off of my boobs. And sometimes you need drains from surgery so that you get liquid the leak out of your boobs. It's gross. I don't know. But I didn't. But sometimes they can swell.

They can fill with liquid. So the doctors do all this gross stuff where they numb your boobs and they stick a tube in it. And they literally milk the fluid out of you. you like out of this tube. They squeeze your boob really hard. It's gross. And they filled up three tubes. And I was like in so much pain, I'm fine now.

It's fine. It's just part of surgery if you want to get a breast reduction. But I was like, I can't believe I got milked. This is like crazy. And like, what are the odds that also Ashley did? I just don't. I don't know that I agree with your word choice, but I'm going to go. I just don't.

You can call it whatever you want to call it. It's milked for me because it came out of my boobs. It just doesn't come out of your nipples. Right. Yeah. I just picture you with udders. It's disgusting. Yeah.

You can milk anything, Focker. What does he say? I have nipples, Greg. Can you milk me? Yes. Meet the parents. So, she's going to be really vulnerable with you guys right now that I realized, like, the week before we left for L.A., the week between coming back from being in Delaware forever and then leaving for L.A.

That one week that I had, like, something going on and on my butt. I was like, it's like a lump. something's off here and I started like Googling what it could be like lump on your butt. Like close to the crack. I'm going to tell you guys. I'm not going to be, I'm not going to be discreet about it. And there's a thing called this pylonidal or pyloneedal cyst that I thought it was. And it turns out that the doctors don't think that it is.

But that's what I thought it was. And so I, anyway, I, regardless, it was something I wanted to get checked out. So I went to a doctor in New York. I was proud of myself, made a doctor's appointment. And I went. And she was like, yeah, there's like a sister, a Lampere, and I don't think it's the pilot idol. It's not in the right spot. But let me just give you, like, a shot of what I think was like cortisone.

I wasn't listening to them. I should listen more. They should also send recaps. Doctors are not telling you what they're doing. You're supposed to, what, take notes in the moment, whatever. So I never know what she's doing back there. So I was like, sure. She was like, this will cut down inflammation.

And so it was really embarrassing. Like, it was so much different than like a gyno exam. Like, they didn't, like, lay me out on the table. I just, like, pulled down my pants. And there was like a nurse in there and at PA and she stuck a needle in my ass crack and like set me on my way. And I was like, Jesus Christ, that was a lot. And it got better. And then I came to LA and I just like, I don't know.

I thought I was in the clear, but I wasn't. And I did like a high yoga class. And bottom line, it like got infected. So I was like in a lot of pain. Like it hadn't really been painful. It had been mild discomfort that was like totally bearable. And then it got really painful. So I was in a really bad place where I was like, this is really bad and something's wrong here.

So I went to the urgent care in West Hollywood and it was like an infected. This is too gross. No, it's not gross. I'm laughing at you. The photos you sent me were so scary. Like the photos of like the needles and like the vials just like laid out. But like I like imagine you, you're just laying on your stomach like. Yeah.

In like Happy Baby. No, that Happy Baby is on your back. She could have done it in Happy Baby. I was on my stomach. Doggy. Doggy. Spreading your own butchie. And anyway, she was like, yeah, this is like a cyst or an abscess or whatever that has been infected.

And we need to basically drain it and put you on antibiotics. So I just, I'm not going to get into all the details, but it was a horror show. It's just what she had to do. Like, I'm just not, I'm not going down this road because I know I'll want to cut it later. It was traumatizing for everybody. And I walked out of the urgent care. And I felt like I was going to pass out from. like just like clenching my knuckles like I was kind of shaking it was painful I felt weak I thought

I was going to walk home I was like called a car and like leaned up against the wall till the car came it was like point one mile I couldn't make it you looked like you'd bit so you asked me if I would I offered you asked me if I would go to CVS pick up your prescription and some gauze and stuff for you and I knocked on your door of your hotel to grab your insurance card and you opened the door in a robe you looked like you've been traumatized when I got home and I looked at my face in the mirror I was white as a ghost like I was like I been through it. And it got better. And now it's better. It's just like an open wound, but it's no longer a lump or a cyst. Like she drained it and it's been draining itself. It's still working. But I,

it's disgusting. And I don't care. We could talk about weird body stuff. This just happens. And probably, I mean, this can happen with an ingrown hair or like just bacteria that gets infected. I mean, and it's in like the worst possible spot because I can't see it and it's like completely on my back. So it's just been a journey. Like, and I've, you know, me I'm so open so I've told people so my brother today checked in he was like how's that tail feather and I think that it's a few factors but when I was in Delaware I was riding that bike so much more than I normally do and I was like going to hot yoga and just like riding around in my own sweat and it's just like I can't believe that that could have contributed to it because it's only my

favorite thing to do only my favorite thing to do is to be at the beach you know you come from the beach out of the water, go to yoga, ride bikes. Like, all the stuff that makes a moist area and contributes to these issues are just all my favorite things to do. I'm blowing the lid right off. His biking is bullshit. No one should do it. I'm glad that you brought up your brother asking about your butthole.

I'm glad that you brought up your brother asking about your butthole. My dad will not stop asking about my boobs. And, like, I understand it's like in context. He's like, are you, how are your boobs feeling? How are they, like, are you besides you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, like, I had to put a stop to it yesterday. I was walking to CVS for you.

And my dad was like, so how are your boobs? I was like, you can't, let's just put a moratorium on this. We can't do this anymore. You've asked me about my boobs enough. You got it. I can't have my dad asking you about my boobs one more time. It's been like every day for a month. I don't need to talk about the swelling, the size, the shape, or my nipples still getting hard.

He hasn't asked. No, if your dad asked about your nipples being hard. Are there the shape and the size you want? Yes, leave me alone. So I can't talk about this anymore. They look so good, you guys. I'm just looking on them right now. They've been out on this trip.

I just wanted to let you know from my vantage point. I feel really happy. This is the biggest they look. I feel like you can choose your adventure with them. They can look big or small. Somebody asked me if I lost sensation in my nipples. No, they're heart of the rock. Your dad.

Yeah. This time was my brother. Did you tell your dad of my step down? My leg crack? You did. Didn't you? No, I was talking to him on my first run to CVS yesterday. Raina has...

I've been doing two a days. So much for me, you guys, because I was, like, sick in Portugal and she had to, like, go get me medicine. Like, she keeps having to, like, deliver meds to my hotel room door. Every time you open the door in a robe, you look like, you've been traumatized. But anyway, you guys, be careful with your buttholes. Like, I don't want to anyone to have to go through this. And if you have anything going on back there and you think it could get infected to do the antibiotics, I can't drink for 10 days, it's fine. I'm, I can't have this happen again. So, that's my truth. Yeah, I never, I keep saying we both got milked this week, and we did. I really never expected it.

I was supposed to be laid up on a chair with all those tubes and needles. I know, so gross. Oh, my God. You know, it's been so great, so I've been, like, not masturbating that much because I got scared that my nipples would get hard and I'd rip the stitches, which you were like, is that a medical fact? And I was like, no, I made it up. That is the funniest shit ever. Rain has been saying she's been avoiding any situation that can make her nipples hard,

and I was like, oh, that makes sense. And she made that up herself. Like, no doctor said you can't get your nipples hard. Not for one second. Dr. Raina. That's Dr. Greenberg right there. No one said this. I just made it up.

But if you take, like, I suggest taking five days off masturbating, you will have the greatest orgasm of your life. It's been incredible. Oh, yeah. Hot tip. If you feel like you're not coming as hard or you're just getting in like a rut, take some time off. Or just mix it up.

You know, listen to the vibes only app and use your fingers. Like, whatever it is, just like mix it up. And then once you go back to that vibrator, it'll just like blow your mind. You know what really turns me on because I, I don't have a much. masturbate on the plane again. I feel like a predator of myself when I do it. It's crazy. But I laid in my seat and I was just like thinking about sexual experiences for like an hour. And then I was like, I can't live like this anymore. I have to go to the bathroom. So now I'm back on masturbating. I've lifted my own ban on it. But I've had some great,

great orgasms. But everything's good now. And I've lifted my stitches ban. Okay. Well, while we're talking about masturbating and vibes only and all that stuff, we have a really exciting announcement. There now is free content within the Vives Only app. You don't have to have a subscription to listen to so you can get in there and see what it's all about. And the controller for the vibrator is also complimentary without a subscription as well. So again, we design this with certain goals in mind. We've expressed this in the podcast. We just wanted people to be in there for the content.

And we knew that people wanted this controller and it's taken a long time to rebuild things and be able to offer this model. But we're really excited to do it. So our goal is obviously that you'll get in there. And if you have the vibes only vibrators, you'll use the standard controller, which is free, and test out some of the stories, the videos, all the tutorials are free. Rain can speak on them a little bit more. And then you'll subscribe.

Yeah, you guys were really excited to do this for you. We are just so proud of this company and the content. We're so excited to provide the standard controller for free. So if you have a toy, get in there immediately, start using it. And we have unlocked videos, all the tutorials. are in there of me and Ashley, and there's great videos that are also free content, and there's some erotic stories that are free as well. So we want you guys to get in there and experience this and enjoy it and see how you feel, and we think that you'll love it so much. You'll keep coming back.

Yeah. And we just also want to clarify that there is so much more with the subscription. So there are only a few free stories. It's just a taste to give you an idea of what the app is like. So if you have the subscription, we don't want you thinking that, wait, now all the stuff's free. That's not the case at all. So if you have the subscription, you have literally 10 times more stories, probably more than that. And there is more coming on the feature side that we are so, so excited about. And we want to keep adding features and adding perks for subscribers as well. So I just wanted to make that clear to our subscribers that we already have. And those of you who are considering subscribing that there is so, so much more. And that's like the full experience.

And if you get in there and you don't have a subscription so you haven't yet paid, you'll see that the stuff that comes with the paid subscription has little handcuffs on it, you know, just staying on brand. and that's obviously requires a subscription. But you can get a taste for it. You can use a controller. We say standard controller because at this moment, the controller that lives in the app, everything that it does is free. It's the same controller for free and for paid.

But we will be adding some premium features that are going to be really exciting. And those will be part of the subscription service, which is just how things work. You know, so controller is free, some erotic stories, some videos. And hopefully you guys, again, will like it and be like, I want. to get it all. Yeah. So we're really proud of it. We're excited to do this for you guys.

And of course, we have all the products available at vibes only.com. We released a new flavor of the blow gel. It's vanilla frosting. It is so unbelievably delicious. It will make your blowjobs. It will make your blowjobs. So you can buy it for somebody you want a blowjob from or buy it for somebody that you want to give a blowjob too. It's just really, really fun and delicious.

So that's all at vibesonly.com. We are working on restocking the reina. We have a couple new products coming. We'll keep you guys posted. And in the meantime, we offer all payment options. But if you guys want to break up the payments, we offer Sezzle, which is just broken up payment option if you don't want to pay upfront for everything. So that's it.

Get in there, check it out. We hope you guys love it. Yay. So selling the OC on Netflix. Yes, we told you guys to watch. We told you guys we'd be reviewing it. And we're ready. The time has come.

I watched it. I crushed the whole thing in one day. Selling Sunset is just one of my favorite reality shows of all time. So this is a spin-off. It's the Oppenheim group and the O.C. I enjoyed it, but I was watching a couple episodes and I felt like they're really reaching to have a villain, like a Christian Quinn, and vilify these women. And I started like reading the comments and I was like, I don't know.

I'm not convinced. So I was waiting to be convinced that these like women were villains. And overall, I liked the characters. It was interesting. I thought it was shot beautifully. I was just like, am I missing something here? like that these women are so terrible and everybody hates them and it just never came to fruition for me. Yeah, I mean, that's the main thing. It's like, who is the villain? And you go back and

forth and you're like, it's supposed to be these two Alex girls, Alexandra Jarvis and Alexandra Rose. And it's, you wonder if you're missing something. You're like, when did they, what did they do? Uh-huh. And then it's such a roller coaster because you start the show. Well, I think at least, at least this is how I felt. And then I think from seeing what people tweeted and wrote, this is how most people felt. I liked Alex Hall to begin with. I was like, she's like a bad bitch, and I think she's so pretty, and she just has her shit together, and she's this single mom, and she's trying to date, and you're like, I want to be in her circle. So she is the, she feels like the anchor of the group, of the nice kids. So then she has Polly, who's like all

quirky and British, and she's kind of, you think she's the cool girl, and then it slowly changes, and you're still like, wait, do I like Alex Hall? And then do I hate these other Alex and then the, and Gio was in with them, and you're like, but what has Gio done that's so terrible? Like, why is he lumped in with the villains? And it is so crazy. Like, that's the main thing. It's like, who side am I on and who is actually the villain? And I will say, I really liked it. And I kind of liked that roller coaster and not knowing and being confused and like, wait, who's on? There's, like, fun to watch and, like, to have to really think of the way you felt about certain characters. But, like, it was proof to me that you don't need the Christine Quinn character

that's like so sociopathic and such a pathological liar. And like, I don't like watching her on screen. So none of those girls were like that bad, but they were all kind of like bad in their own way. So they were all like on a more level playing field. It just felt like a little more normal people. Yeah. In general, it felt like it's still mean girl behavior

and people like sort of cutting each other down. But it wasn't this like sick, narcissistic behavior. Yeah. Everyone would like do something bad. Then you would kind of feel some forgiveness towards them. It was just, it was kind of wild. And it was funny because I feel like Alex Jarvis, and especially towards the end, she is like what Christine Quinn thinks she is.

Like, you know, she's like very confused on why everyone hates her. But like, so am I. You know, like, we're like, wait, why? And then at the end, I think the producers were like, we have built them up to villains this whole time. They have to do something. And that's when they kind of went in and like dredged up all the drama with Kayla. It felt like the very last episode.

And I'm sorry, you know, spoil. Not really spoiler. But the very last episode, they're on this boat together. and these girls that you're still trying to figure out if they're like the mean girls are not are saying like your pants are ugly and they're like yelling at them and you're like taunting them and I was like, okay, this is like too much and you've kind of lost me like having any sympathy for you. Not the Alex's, the other girls. I felt like you went too hard. It was too mean. It got too mean girly and ganging up on these two people that are in your office, on a boat with you.

It was like a little much. Yeah. You know, a lot of the things that we love about the show are the way it shot. It's so beautiful. The house is alone. The real estate. The real state porn, the fashion. So it delivered all that. And I just felt like it was a little more balanced drama. But I will say that these girls as a whole, there isn't like the number one mean girl Christine Quinn style, but they're all a little meaner than selling sunset. That's a good call. Yeah. You know, like individually. As a whole, like I think that in selling sunset you have Mary and Chris Lowe and they're just like, you know, as far as we think, just like sweet and nice and Amanda. Uh, you know, they're like, so catty.

So it's like their catty as a whole, but they're all more balanced. That's such a good point. So it's kind of crazy to watch because you're like, whose side am I on? Uh-huh. I mean, I think it's reality TV 101. I mean, I watch a lot more than you do of like housewives, especially where it's like, I think the producers tell you to never apologize. Like, and that's how the Alex Hall situation felt.

Like, Gio said like, you insulted my wife and you were like a little, I don't know what word he used, but he snubbed her. You snubbed her. And Alex Hall, like, becomes incensed. refuses to apologize. And I almost feel like, maybe surely is like this, but I also feel like producers almost tell you like, do not back down, do not apologize. Because that would go from a scene that was 20 minutes long to a scene that was 30 seconds

long. Right. Like a normal person in any situation would be like, oh, I'm sorry that your wife felt like that. That's a bummer. Like, that's not my intention. And I'm happy to say something to her. Like, we would have no television if you really apologize. Like, there was a whole season of the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills where like Teddy

was mad at Doreet for showing a plate to a lunch. and she just wouldn't apologize. And that was like the whole arc of the season. And it's like, people don't really act like this. Yeah, like that thing was such a nothing. Right. She was like, well, should I talk to her about it? He was like, no.

And she was like, well, then what do you want me to do? He was like, just don't do it again. And then it was like, in the real world, that would end the conflict. But then they go to like a beach party with the team and it comes up and get, you know, like, you know that the producer's like, hey, bring that shit up again. It's like, and that's, listen, I mean, Raina is like, she's, knows so much more about, she watches so much more reality TV

and can speak on this stuff so much more than me. And this to me, it just, it's still selling sunset and selling the OC, it's still not like drama that makes me feel anxious in my body, like some of the housewives and some of the other shows. Like I can stomach this and I enjoy it. Oh, totally.

It's like the right level drama for me to watch. Yes, it's very funny to me on the housewives when somebody gets labeled like a pot stir, a shitster. And I'm like, you understand that the producers were like sit down at this dinner and bring up this thing. We've talked about 17 times. Do it.

But it was really entertaining and I enjoyed it. And I love the houses and I love the way it shot. And I absolutely recommend watching it. And some tea just came out that Tyler and Britney Snow, his wife, are divorcing. Yeah. He's like crazy. It's crazy because he put out a statement being like, she thinks this is so funny. And I mean, you never know what goes on my closed doors.

But he's like, yeah, she thinks it's no big deal. And then they announced this. And then TMZ has like released photos of him and Alex Hall together. So we're staying on top of the drama. Yeah. So if you're like, who are these people again? You're just going to watch the show. But it's insane.

Like I can't believe this. Like I feel like this is a part of the show. I know. Like it feels like how did this happen? And yes, he was like flirtatious with his office coworkers. But you know, on the show, you're led to think that like, okay, well, that's just how it is. And he has this healthy marriage or whatever. But maybe the marriage was having problems before.

But who knows. Again, who knows what's real and what's not. But they are getting divorced. and he's, I don't know. I don't know. Also, you never know, like, when somebody comes home and it's like, listen, during filming this stuff happened, it was no big deal. And then you watch it on television.

You're like, that's not what happened. You told me what happened, but that's not what happened. Like, I don't want another woman's mouth on your face on national television. You told me it was late flirting, but she opened her mouth and put it on your face. So, I mean, I was watching that the whole time thinking like, damn, Britney Snow is like real chill. Right. Also, love Britney Snow. Loved her ever since John Tucker, My husband.

die. Oh, I do. That is a classic. I know it is. Oh, and like what, pitch perfect probably, but I love her forever. But yeah, I always wonder when people like rewatch a show, like what their person has said to them about what happened and then like what the actuality is. So, clearly she didn't like it. I don't blame her. But who knows? It's like maybe there were having issues before and this was like the icing on the cake or they didn't, you know, this was right. Or they were kind of separating before, but they didn't want to say it on the show. Like, you just never know. We just have dated people that I would see do that.

And I'd be like, it doesn't matter to me. I don't care. She can put her nose on your mouth on her nose. I don't care. But we are excited to talk about us to you guys. And your homework for next week is to watch The Love is Blind, season two, after the altar, three episodes on Netflix. So that's your homework and we'll talk about it next week.

Yes. I've watched one. I'm going to watch the remaining two. And we will discuss on the next episode. So we have an episode about mother-daughter relationships today. We were returning guests, Lori Gottlie, we're going to get into it with her. And just in the interest of, you know, you being able to really lean into the interview with her, we thought that we would talk about our relationships with our moms just ahead of time between the two of us.

And just sort of like give you guys a little bit of background on our moms. And, you know, I feel like I've been so open with you guys all these years about my life and my family and my relationships. But the one thing I have kept a little private is the relationship of my mom. And the reason for that is I just don't really want to embarrass anybody because my mom's a good person. But the relationship with her has been like the most challenging relationship in my life for my whole life. For a lot of reasons. And I don't ever want her to like listen to this and feel like I said something about her that, I mean, I guess we all say things about people that they wouldn't necessarily co-signed. But I want her to feel respected in the things that I say about her.

So I think I flippantly make some jokes. But, you know, the truth about the relationship with her is that growing up, up. I had a really nice life. I felt really, I felt physically really safe. I had a roof over my head. I went to summer camp. I had a parent that went to parent teacher conferences and made sure that I did my homework with her. And she cooked me dinner every night. And my parents divorced when I was four. And my mom was a single mom. And she raised my brother and I, my dad always lived like down the street, but he got to be the fun parent. She was like the parent parent. I was safe physically, but I, I never really felt safe emotionally. And it's taking me decades to deal with that.

and deal with how I feel about my relationship with her and how can I get along with her and reconciling that somebody was a good parent on paper but made you feel so bad all the time. And I will acknowledge that, you know, we all play a role in these relationships. I'm sure that it wasn't easy for her to deal with a daughter as a single parent.

I'm sure it wasn't easy for her that she got to do all the parenting. My dad got to be the fun parent and he got the glory kind of and he got to do all the fun stuff. But emotionally, I felt like I had this parent who didn't like me and liked my brother more than me and was mean to me. There was a lot of screaming in the house every single day. I remember she would come home from work and I'd hear the garage go up and I just would start to like panic inside. Like what is she going to pick on me for today? And what is she going to be mean to me for?

And what am I getting screamed out about? And I remember I would like try to make sure that like the trash was out, the dishes were done. had nothing to scream at me about it. It didn't matter. It just, it was like a war zone in my home. And I feel, I remember sitting at dinner with my brother and my stepdad. My mom and I would just be screaming at each other. It was just constant. It was constant criticism. We just like could not figure out how to get along with each other. And this was from the time I was like 11 until I was 30. And it never really got better. In waves it did. We tried to go to therapy. And there was multiple times where we didn't speak to each other for six plus months and we just fought constantly. And I never felt like she liked

me or she was proud of me. And I wanted those things so badly. I wanted to just hear, I wanted to be validated a lot and I didn't get that. I didn't grow up in a home with somebody that really said a lot to me, you're right. I can see your side of things. I'm sorry. I didn't get a lot of that growing up. And I think for her, my mom's really smart. I think she wanted to see her role in things, but I think there was a lot of resentment for a lot of reasons. And towards my stepdad or my dad or I'm sure I wasn't a fucking joy to deal with either. I mean, what daughter is, Jesus. I mean, we're just, it's a lot to raise a girl and a boy, but like, at least some, and I was

harder. I was harder. Not harder than you. I wasn't what-uping you. I was harder than my brother. Yeah. You know, I think that, you know, if you ask her, she would say, I always told you I was proud of you.

And I always told you that I loved you and that I thought you were great. And I don't know if that's true or not because I really just remember the criticism. I remember the screaming fights every single morning on the way to school. I remember dinner just being screaming at each other. I remember like never hearing what I wanted to hear and feeling like she was so mean to me and not ever knowing how to have a common ground with each other. And it took me my whole life to figure out how to get there. You've seen us have crazy fights and you weren't even around for a lot of this.

And it has shaped who I was forever. You know, a lot of people have daddy issues. I probably have mommy issues. She was a good person and she's tried to be a good person, but it's taken a lot of years to kind of deal with each other. And I remember going to therapy and this therapist, I was like 14, said you need to make her mean less to you.

And my mom was like, fuck this guy and fuck that advice. Hard advice to follow. Well, yeah, I remember her saying, what the fuck is that supposed to mean? It's your mom. Who doesn't want acceptance and pride? And there's nobody in the world. no one that I want to look at me and say, I'm proud of you, and I can't believe what you've done

more than her in the whole world. And maybe that's just not really what she's like. And maybe she's disappointed in the way her life turned out. Maybe some of it came onto me, you know, but I think that I've at least tried, I would never give anybody else advice about how to deal with their own parent. This is a one-size-fits-one for me. But I did sort of figure out what that meant in my 30s and what that meant for me was that I had to stop letting the criticism mean so much to me. I had to stop taking everything so, I guess, personally, like everything she said to me felt like a criticism. It felt like she wasn't proud of me. It felt like she was being so much more angry than she ever really needed to be. And I removed myself from that a little bit. I decided I don't need

to prove this person wrong all the time. I don't need to step up to the plate for every fight. Sometimes when she starts getting a little nuts and yelling, I don't have to match her on that level. And yeah, that does make a relationship a little more surface level on some level because you're like, I'm not being me in every situation. But it also allows us to get along with each other, to have conversations, to be in the same room, to be able to travel together and be in events together. And it's been about five years since we had a fight like that.

We had a really bad fight on Thanksgiving five years ago. And we haven't. And I mean, that takes a lifetime of work. And I don't know that that's the solution. But yes, people have said me my whole life. Have you tried talking to her about this? Should I tell her how you feel? Of course I have.

My mom's a therapist. We talked endlessly about. about this stuff. So I don't know. I mean, mother-daughter relationships are complicated and it's painful to look at other people's relationships with their moms and think, I want this so badly. Why can't I have this? And everybody has deficits in their own relationship with their moms, but I just, I want to be able to sit in the same room and not be like ripping each other's heads off and feel validated every once in a while. And you may not get everything you want from a person, but like at least we can get along. And I feel like we at least hear each other a little

bit more now than we used to because I have removed myself from the type of fighting that we do and it doesn't can't fight with a person we'll fight with you yeah I mean I just think what you've done is so admirable and I don't know really I didn't know you before so you know when you say I witnessed you said I've seen you guys fight it's more you recapping to me or something like that or you know I don't really know that side of your mom because of how you've chosen to handle it over the years. And I think, like, I don't, I think you heard some things in therapy, but a lot of that has just been you being, like, smart enough to realize what, how to coexist. Yes. And not just be at each other's throats forever. Yeah. And, you know, my solution of trying to prove myself

right to her all the time was never going to be good. My solution of not speaking to her and staying with, like, my aunt and uncle when I'd go to Pittsburgh instead of staying with her, it hurt her. It hurt my dad, my stepdad, my brother. You know, it made everybody feel unhappy and sad. And that wasn't the solution I wanted either. Because, again, at the end of the day, my mom did not abuse me. She didn't do terrible, horrible things to me. She just, I didn't really feel like she was very nice to me.

We couldn't get along. Yeah. I feel like I sometimes will, like, you'll tell me stuff that she says. And I almost can, like, feel her wanting something deeper too, you know? She does. And by the way, I don't know if this will come up in the episode, but you are welcome to not speak to your family. You don't have to just take it and take it and take it from anybody.

And blood does not mean that you have to. And it's okay to draw boundary and say that you can't be in my life with anybody. And that's fine too. That was not my path or my solution. But that's fine too. Yeah. And I do think obviously some of this was you realizing like this is her shit, not mine, which is really tough to do with a parent.

Because you're like, how do you not view yourself through the lens of your mom? mom, you know? Yep. Like, it's so difficult because your parent is supposed to think that like, you shit gold. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's tough to not see yourself the way they see you. So it takes a lot of maturity and strength and growth to actually be like, what she sees and how she treats me and speaks to me and criticizes me doesn't necessarily mean that that's

who I am. And I say this would love for your mom because I really do think there's a lot of good there. and I like get so excited when I feel like you guys have made progress. I feel like emotional about this. When I feel like you guys have like made progress because like it's clearly not beyond hope. And like as of late, there's been a lot of like her trying to maybe correct what you've brought to her that she misstepped in the past. And I think also what you have with your dad is I get really emotional talking about parents stuff. I don't know.

Really special in that you guys do have like this friendship. The way you guys communicate is really special. and this is not that I'm saying it's like better than you and your mom. I'm saying like it's rare in general, I think, what you have with him. Yeah. It was nice for better or for worse to have a parent to be able to be like, you're not like this. The stuff that she says is not true. I know that everybody doesn't get to have that.

But it has been a lifelong fight and journey to like get to this place and it's not perfect. And I felt really sad a lot of times at times like graduations or birthday parties. And she'd be screaming her fucking head off at me. And I'd just, I'd look at other people's families. and be like, this should be easier. This should be more fun. And honestly, I'm sure she was sitting there thinking the same thing.

Right. But that's all I really have to say about it. I don't talk about it all on the podcast because I don't want to make anybody feel bad. And I think that we've made progress. And, you know, everybody's relationship is probably not what they'd want it to be, except for yours and your moms because I think they're great. I mean, yeah, it's like I want to tread lightly because I don't, I can't really speak on having like a strained relationship.

or anything that like honestly is pretty less than ideal. I was talking with a friend recently and she said, you know, I look at you and your mom. I'm like, well, that's not a comparison you should make because Cindy Heseltine is one of a kind. And I was born to this world with really wonderful parents. I feel so grateful all the time. And it's so much of her like we were talking about this. People are like, can't believe you talk to your mom about like sex and dating. And you guys are like friends.

but they're still like not a weird friend. You know, she's so my mom, but that's part of me being like open to. Not everybody is so open as you and I are about talking about the stuff in the first place. You know, like that's what was the first question I asked you before we went down this road. Like, are you like me? Are you talking about your sex life with like that your parents could even hear it, you know? But she is this carefree, really loving, really supportive, really wonderful woman. I mean, that's why we say she like hasn't aged because she just doesn't get.

get stressed and upset and anxious and she is just the best person in the world. And she would tell you that she realized early on, because I was not the easiest that like she did just need to kind of like be my friend. Like she was like, no one can control her. You know, I was a person that was like a straight-A student and I did what I was supposed to do. It was like a kid and a daughter, but I was pretty, I was difficult. I was moody. You know, I wasn't like a total nightmare brat to be around. But I wasn't the easiest. And so I think my mom was like, I just wanted to get along with her. You know, like, I can't tell her what, no one can tell her what to do.

They thought it was a mistake where I chose to go to college. They were probably right. I've talked about this before. Like, but they just couldn't, it was like, she can't be managed. So it was just hoping I didn't do anything too terrible. And I think they put a lot of trust in me and my brother to do the right thing. And I think no matter what, even when I was like annoyed with them or embarrassed of them, like, oh my God, do you hate your parents?

Like, I still wanted them to be proud of me and I still don't want to let them down. And so they trusted us. and it was a reciprocal relationship. And so they've also just like let me fly. I mean, they've put up with a lot. And they just saw something to me that I feel like sometimes I didn't even see in myself. So, I mean, I just got lucky. I'm aware of it.

I didn't do anything to deserve it. And I know that so many people have strained or unhealthy relationships with their parent or parents or have lost a parent or both of their parents. And so I imagine this topic could be painful to listen to in that regard. and I have all the empathy in the world for people who have had the loss of a parent or are estranged or are just in general struggling deeply with this relationship. So I just don't want to come across like I'm bragging. I'm just sharing my honest experience since it's the topic today.

And no relationship is perfect. Like my mom and I have had rough patches, mostly when I was a lot younger. We've gotten in fights. We made each other to cry. But honestly, most of those instances were probably my fault. you know, like she is actually the easiest person to have a relationship with. Like, if you have a conflict with Sydney House of Time, it's probably you. You need to reflect on that yourself.

And that's just, that's what it is. You know, I'm aware of that as well. So that is my truth. I don't look at it as like bragging or being like, I don't have problems. You know, you're just, you're really lucky. Your family's a joy to be around. I love being around them. Your family treats me like one of their own.

And your mom is really special. Your mom is lucky. She also has like, an incredible marriage. She had a teammate and a partner. My mom never felt like that. My mom felt like I can't fucking believe I have to deal with this by myself, you know? And I'm sure that bred a lot of anger just in general about like how did I get here? Because like it might have been a little different dealing with that kind of stuff with a partner that you felt like you could sort of lean on to co-parent. And so, you know, to your mother's credit also, she's great marriage.

I also wonder generationally how much plays into it. I don't know what your mom's relationship with her mom was. But like my mom was like best friends with her mom. You know, like every Sunday They talked in the phone for two hours. You couldn't disturb her. So they had like a really, it's like how we roll in the family, which I think is like, you know, I'm not having kids. So it stops with me. But it's just kind of like, she had that too.

And I think she was like, this kid is a fucking brat. But I will wait it out. Hopefully we'll be friends one day. It's so funny. Well, just sort of in closing before we get into the guest, I just want to say when we decided to do this episode, we posted on Instagram, we asked you guys what topics you wanted us to cover in terms of mother-daughter relationships. And I was really blown away by the amount of topics people submitted.

My entire life, I felt a lot of like shame and guilt around not having the type of relationship that you have with your mother today. And I would look at around at all my girlfriends. And I would think like, God, I just like want to like go to lunch and go shopping and like laugh and have fun and not feel bad about myself. And I'm sure she felt the same way. I'm sure she felt like she wanted to do that too. and felt sad that that wasn't how it was always between us. And all of my friends seemed to be like best friends with their moms. And I thought, like, why am I able to have all these relationships in my life, but not this one? And like, why can't this one be easier or, like, work out better?

And reading all of your submissions, I mean, I'm just, I'm looking at the list. And so many people said, you know, issues with my mom being critical or feeling guilt or competitive with me, body image stuff, stuff with my sibling, helicopter parents. I mean, there's such a huge range of what people deal with with a parent and how it can impact you. And it was a reminder to me, honestly, that, like, you just don't really know what's going on behind closed doors. You don't know what other people are dealing with. Just because other people look like they have a perfect relationship doesn't mean that they do. And everybody is dealing with this on some level. And I'm excited for this episode because I think that rather than focusing on one or two things,

we really talk to Lori about a way through for all of this. So I'm really excited about this episode. And I hope you guys really love it. And that's all. Yes, I think it will be really impactful for a lot of people and we're really excited to do it. And just last thing, before we get into it, I just want to say if my mom is listening and I don't know if she is, but I love you and you were a great mother and you always made me feel safe and I'm glad that we're in a good place and I just, I want her to hear that because I don't think I say it again throughout the episode. So okay. All right, guys, we are so

excited to welcome back a guest today. She is a psychotherapist. She's a New York Times best-selling author of maybe you should talk to someone, which is sold over a million copies. It's currently being adapted to a television series. In addition to her clinical practice, she is the co-host of the Dear Therapist Podcast. She writes the Atlantic Weekly's Dear Therapist Advice column. She is a sought after expert in media and her recent TED Talk is one of the top 10 most watched of the year. Please welcome back to the show, Lori Gottlieb. Hello. Great to be here. Hi. Thank you for being back. Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having you. me. Yes. Well, we're doing mom stuff today. Yeah. And we were wanting to do this topic and we were

looking at your website and some various things and your podcast and everything. And this is something that you discuss a good amount. Yeah. That's something that's so common, whether it's, you know, somebody who's doing a session on the podcast or somebody who writes into the column or just in my clinical practice. You know, I think that a lot of people when they grow up, they start to wonder about what can this relationship with my mother look like even if it wasn't the relationship that I wanted when I was younger and maybe still isn't that relationship. How much can she change? How much can I change? What are the possibilities? Okay. Do you see any really common themes with criticism, like just generally criticized and not knowing when a fight was going to break out or judged, I guess,

as well? Yeah. I mean, I think criticism coming from, and we're talking about mothers right now, but I would say this applies to parents in general, so any parent, I think that you want that person to be your safe place. You want that person to really be the person that has your back, that sees the best qualities in you, that can be honest with you, but in a gentle, helpful way, as opposed to a critical and sometimes even traumatizing way. And sometimes it even veers into what, you know, becomes emotional abuse if it's constant. And, And I think that a lot of people feel like they see other people who have those good relationships with their mothers and they feel very ripped off that they didn't have it.

And I think that they're so angry still about not only the past, but about why don't we have it now without realizing that they do have agency, they do have choices. They do have different ways that they can experiment in terms of relating to their mothers differently to see what the mother is capable of doing. But if you keep doing the same dance that you've been doing your whole life with your mother that was the younger dance when you were younger and you didn't have any choices because we don't have those choices when we're kids, then I think people just end up in the same cycle and the same pattern over and over and nothing ever changes. So it really has to be that you have to do something different. And people don't like that because they feel like, wait a minute, why do I have to do the first thing? Why can't my mother approach me? Why can't my mother apologize? Why can't my mother see? what she did or didn't do that I needed. And I think that the good news and the bad news for people is you do need to be the person to start. But if you do, so many people see a big change in how they relate to their mothers. And it's very meaningful as an adult, especially as you grow up,

you have your own family. If you do, if you have a partner, it will help you relate to your partner in a healthier way. If you can kind of process some of this stuff with your mom. and then if you become a parent yourself, it's really going to impact how you parent, depending on how much work you've done in your own relationship with your parent. I like what you said about sort of leaning on, well, it should be like this and feeling angry about it and saying to yourself, it'll be different this time and then it never is. And I think it's a really tough cycle. And I think you hit it.

I mean, well, obviously you hit it on the head. But you know, you're the one that has to change if you want something to change. You can't control your own behavior. Yeah. It's so frustrating. that you have to do it. Like, you're the mom. Like, you're the parent.

You know, you're supposed to be in charge of this relationship and, like, repairing it when it needs repaired. Like, why do I have to come to you? And I think that is like a thing you just want to scream. And then that now you're mad on top of the issues that you have with the parent to begin with. And I see that too. When people come to therapy, they feel like, why am I the one that now has to do all

the work and I have to come to therapy every week. And I have to spend all this time and money and energy. doing all this work, why can't she do some of this? And I think that, you know, it's a really good investment in your life to try to figure some of this stuff out. And if you can let go of the, of the understandable resentment, I should say it's all very understandable. It's like, I didn't get all of these things. And now I have to put in even more work. And it feels so unilateral. But it's not because you're in relationship with your mother, even if you aren't really talking that much or even if you're fighting most of the time, it's still a relationship and you want it to

change. So how is it going to change? You're going to have to do something different because whatever you've been doing has led to this point where nothing is changing. I wanted to just back up to this question or sentiment of I'm, I got ripped off. What do you say to that person that just comes to you of like, I see my friends that have these relationships and I see that, you know, even what you see in pop culture and I just want this fairy tale mother-daughter relationship. Yeah. I want to be friends. whatever that looks like, but I just feel so angry. Like, how do you even start that conversation with someone? I think that that's such an important point because it does take some grieving,

that there's a huge loss in not having had that. So you can't just pretend that you didn't have that loss. And so alongside of changing how you interact with your mother, there's grieving that I did not get the childhood that I wanted. And I always want people to remember that you have to, let go of the fantasy of having a better past in order to create a better future. And so if you have the fantasy that when I find this new relationship with my mom, that that's going to make up for the past, no, the past is the past. You're never going to get that back. And that sounds really

disappointing and frustrated. But at the same time, that's the grieving. And if you can go through that grieving process and focus on what can I get as an adult, what would that look like? That's what's going to help you create a better future. You can't get a redo. You're not going to get a redo. And so many times when people want a different relationship as an adult with their mother, what they want is they want their mom to make up for everything that went wrong when they were children. And no human being can do that.

So what people do is they approach their mothers with all this anger and this fierce anger and righteous anger. And righteous anger. They have good reason to be angry. but the expectation that the mother can somehow give them a redo is just not on the table. It's not realistic. Yeah, I think you do bring a lot of anger from the past. And I don't think I'm still holding out of things that happened when I was five. But in a way that you know, you were formed by a certain experience.

And it's hard to not take that experience and apply it to what's happening today. And it can make you really angry. And I love what you said to just sort of say to yourself, let's hit the reset button. Let's have a new relationship now. I mean, Lori, I would assume that that is so much easier said than done and takes a lot of therapy in general because you're not, you're also angry of like, I turned out this way because of you or like, you affected my romantic relationships. And so it's so deep. The baggage is like so heavy. I mean, I'm assuming I just want to validate people that are like, yeah, it's not that easy.

I can't just say like, let's move forward. The past of the past. I'm sure you have to deal with people. I'm not saying you said that, but I'm just, I'm sure you deal with people really even getting to a of feeling comfortable letting go, right? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think you're right that it affects so, so much of our lives. And, and again, if you don't process this and if you don't kind of work through the grief and if you don't see what is possible. And sometimes what you want to be possible isn't possible, but sometimes part of it is. And that can be incredibly healing. And so I think the other part of it is that, you know, I always say to people in an early session, tell me how you

were loved as a child because I will learn from that how they love as adults. And so you're absolutely right that if they were loved a certain way as a child, they are going to probably have a lot of complicated feelings about love as adults. And again, this is why you know, you're trying to reconnect with your mother partly because you want to see what's possible there, but partly because you want to heal. And so when you can kind of see from the adult perspective, which isn't the helpless child perspective, but again, the person, the adult who has agency and choices about and can set boundaries and can say no or can, you know, decide, hey, this is okay and this is not okay. It's very empowering. And it teaches you how to be in relationship in a different way in your

friendships and in your romantic relationships as an adult. Even at work. You know, even with, you know, how do you do with authority figures? How do you do with people who somehow remind you of your mother? Little pieces of them that do. And, you know, why does that, Why does that trigger you so much? How can you pay attention to that? I think it is hard to let go of a lot of that anger and say to yourself, I was a child. It was on you to make this better.

It was on you to make me feel safe and okay. And I think that probably there's some anger that like you didn't handle it as well as you should have. And I can talk to other people and make relationships better. Why couldn't I make this better? And so even forgiving yourself for what has happened, you know, I just, I think it's a lot like I actually said it. It's a long road.

It's not so easy. Right. And you just use the word forgiveness. And I'm not a big proponent of that. So meaning, I think that if you truly forgive someone, great, that that might be something that works for you. But a lot of people are told, you know, you need to forgive this person. And I always say you can have compassion without forgiveness. Because what happens is people then feel forced into forgiveness. Like if I were a better person, I would forgive my mother because she had this kind of upbringing. And so I understand why she was actually a better mother to me than her mother was to her, even though she was still kind of a

shitty mother to me. Or she didn't, you know, do what I, give me the kind of love or the kind of support that I felt like I needed. That doesn't mean you have to forgive her. You know, you have to look inside of yourself and say, I might have compassion for her as a little girl and understand how she grew up to be how she was. But the fact is, I still didn't get what I needed. And I have a lot of compassion for me too. I have a lot of compassion for me as a little girl who didn't get what I wanted. And that self-compassion is going to help you have compassion for your mother without saying, and I forgive everything that happened. You don't have to do that. You can still have a relationship with your mother that isn't based in anger, but is more about more about compassion

and the grief at the same time. I like the reframing of that. I love that. That's important because someone's like, I can't just forgive, you know, and I think it's just important to think about I was just talking to a friend that was just talking about her wanting her to have a deeper relationship with her mother. And I know a lot about her mom and what she's been through and the loss of a spouse. And I just feel like her mom had to live in survival mode the whole time she was raising these children. And I think it can make you a certain type of way where you just have to push forward. Because if you let go, it'll all unravel. And I think that can turn you into a type of person that, you know, maybe lacking those deep relationships that a mom that didn't have to live in survival.

mode had the luxury of having. Well, I think as kids, we see our parents as people who should have it all together. We don't really see them as human beings. Right. And when you become an adult, you're more able to see the fullness and the complexity of their own stories. They have certain limitations. They grew up in certain families that had limitations too, and they didn't get what they

needed, perhaps. Or something happens in life, like you said, like sometimes, you know, a child dies in the family and then your parents are really kind of not the same. or like you said, their partner dies. Things happen. Financial situations happen. All kinds of situations happen. And I think that when you can see the fullness of the picture, again, it doesn't mean

you have to forgive, but it gives context. And it also makes it feel a little bit less personal. That I think when you're a kid, it feels so incredibly personal. Why doesn't my mother love be in this way, that I see the other mothers loving their children? And by the way, when you are a child who does. doesn't have certain things like that, you notice all the kids who do, but you don't necessarily notice the kids who don't. And so you have this very skewed view. It's kind of like if you're

trying to get pregnant, you notice all the pregnant women walking around, but you don't notice like all the not pregnant women walking around. So it's kind of like you have radar for the thing that you don't have and it makes you really sad. I think noticing that, you know, our parents are human beings. And one of the things that happens is sometimes when people like this are healing, And they have their own kids. And they notice that the different milestones, how different they are with their own kids, that it's very healing to say,

wow, my mother wasn't able to give me this, but I'm able to give my child this. And it's sad because you think, oh, I should have had this. I was only five. I should have had this. But at the same time, being able to give that to your five-year-old,

feels so incredibly healing. I was wondering what you say to somebody, and this is probably a last resort, but when somebody comes to you and says, I want to repair it, is there like a number of steps you take before saying maybe it's just time to accept that you don't have this relationship or you're never going to have this relationship? A lot of tools, I'm assuming, that lead up to that before. And that's fine too to say you should just accept it.

But let's talk about like some tools before that. I think that the way that you approach your mom is going to be very different when you have a therapist guiding you. Because if your child is, if your adult child is coming to you and you have a volatile relationship or you have a relationship that's very tense. The parents is expecting to be blamed. And what do we do sort of as humans? We defend ourselves. And it's very hard for a parent. You know, I think I think the thing that's hard for the children, the adult children to accept is that your parent probably did her very best, even if her best was a D plus, that she probably did her best. She didn't have a kid thinking, oh, you know, I'm not going to love this kid or I'm not really going to care about this kid.

generally that's not the case. In most cases, the parent thinks when they're going to have a kid, like, I'm going to be a great parent. And they don't realize that they just don't have the tools, that they don't know how to be a great parent. They never learned how to be a great parent. They're not able to be a great parent. And they often think that they were a pretty good parent.

And so they do not understand when the kid comes to them and says, you know, this was really hard for me. My childhood was really hard. They think, look what you had. You had this, that and the other thing that I never had. or they make that kind of comparison. Or, you know, you're too sensitive. Or look at your sibling.

Your sibling didn't have this. So obviously, it's just the problem is you. So they really can't tolerate the fact that you're saying, you hurt me. Even though you didn't intend to, you hurt me. That's really hard for a parent to hear. So a therapist can help you approach the parent in a way where they won't feel so defensive, where you're coming from, you're offering sort of peace and openness as opposed to,

to I need you to take responsibility for everything and apologize to me. That's not going to be, that's not going to happen in the beginning. This is why it is so important to do this in the right way. I can't imagine a more defensive person than a parent that is being approached in that you did everything wrong. You were a terrible parent. What? Like it's like questioning the way that they did something for so long, their whole life existence in a way, especially if it's someone that thought that they did their best or they did their best with what they had. So I can imagine this goes wrong so much without the right tools and the right professional guidance. Yeah. There is a level of needing to validate how somebody feels. And I remember having these screaming fights with my mom and she would say,

look around your life. Look at all your friends that don't have parents that show up for them, that don't go to their school plays or do homework with them or come home every night and cook them dinner. And I do all these things for you and you fucking hate me still. And I feel like choked up. You know, my mom would say, you know, your father doesn't do any of these things for you. Your father doesn't show up the way I do. I'm the parents. and you still hate me. And I don't hate her and I was in high school and these were terrible fights. But I do think there was such a level of me never, ever validating that feeling that probably

made her feel insane. Right, right. And I think, you know, both people want validation. So the parent wants validation of, you know, there are things that they also did that were probably really meaningful, even like one or two things in your entire childhood. And so, you know, we had, we had actually on the podcast, on Dear Therapists, we had a session with a mother and a daughter. And one of the homework assignments we gave them was we, we wanted the daughter to write down three instances of when her mother, because she had mentioned some in the session, when her mother was the kind of mother that she wanted. And to write those down and share those with her mom.

And I think it's really important for for the moms to hear these things because it's not, you know, And are there cases where the mom never did anything at all, where there are zero memories of any positive experiences? Yes, there are. But I think if you can find some balance there, if you can find some of that, again, in these earlier conversations, it will make it easier for your mom to validate your experience, that there were times when you didn't get what you want. There were times when you did and she was really there and present. But there were a lot of times that she wasn't and that you're not trying to blame her. You're not trying to, you know, you're not trying to open up an argument. You're trying to say, what can we do now to see each other better? What can we do now so that I don't feel so injured when I'm around you?

I want to have a relationship with you. But if I'm injured every time I'm around you, we're probably not going to spend that much time together. And you think that's really sad for both of us. Yeah. I mean, I also think there's just a lot of hope here, you know, if you're willing to do the work. And I've seen, I mean, a friend with a dad, but really just. had a terrible relationship basically non-existent that they're closer than ever now because she decided to do it. And for lack of a better word, take responsibility, whether even if she felt

angry about like, why am I the kid and why do I have to do that? And I've, I saw it every step of the way. And I'm assuming at the beginning, even for her, it probably felt impossible. I feel like you probably couldn't even foresee that you could be at this really healthy, wonderful, loving relationship. And it's beautiful that it can, at least it happens. It does happen. It does happen. And sometimes what happens instead is that you realize that there are certain things that

you get from your mom that you really enjoy. And they might not be those deeper things that you want. But when you're different with her, you notice that, oh, you know, we really have fun when we talk about this. Or we really have fun when we do this. this together. And maybe it's not everything that you want, but you're still having a relationship with your mom that's positive. And you have had to grieve and find other people in your life. Maybe it's your partner. Maybe it's your best friend. Maybe it's a sibling, you know,

whoever it is, who might be that person that you can go to with these other things. And you're still going to be sad about that. But it's very different from being, you know, kind of like throwing out the baby with the bathwater, meaning you're totally estranged from your mom because you can't get everything that you want in that relationship. You can still have a good relationship with your mom that isn't your fantasy relationship, but it's good enough. So is there, and maybe you feel, maybe you did answer this, but we asked people, you know, what do you want to hear us talk about in this topic? And we got so many responses. I mean, you get injured by a parent in a million way and everybody's experience is different. So many people have been injured by a parent,

so many different ways. So when you said injured, it really stood out to me. So I was curious, you know, if you have advice for like, how do we let go of feeling so injured by the past? Well, first of all, you've got to set boundaries. So you don't want to be around someone who's always hurting you. So you set boundaries. And the thing about boundaries that people often misunderstand is that people think that a boundary is a request from another person. And if they don't honor that request, then there's no boundary.

That's not true. The boundary is with yourself. It is, what am I going to do if this person, does not honor my request. What am I going to do? So if you say to yourself, if my mom criticizes me when I'm with her or tells me or gives me advice that I don't want or, you know, tells me or compares me to so and so or whatever the thing is that really drives you crazy, that feels really awful every time you're with her, you can say, hey, mom, when you criticize my appearance, when you criticize my choices, when you criticize my partner, when you criticize my job, when you make those kinds of

comments, whatever it is that your mother does, that doesn't make it enjoyable to be around each other. And so I'm going to end the phone call or I'm going to leave and we'll get together another time. And then you do that. So what people often do is they set the boundary, the mother breaks the boundary. And they see, see, I tried to set a boundary with you. And then they get into a big fight and then nothing ever happens. What you do is you stay calm and you say, you know, this is, I asked you not to do that. So I'm going to leave and we'll get together another time. and hopefully it'll be better next time. And I love you and I'll talk to you later. It's not an angry leaving. It's just a very calm, hey, my mom couldn't do it today.

So I'm going to leave. And your mom might be like, oh, look at you. You're so sensitive or whatever it is. And you say, yeah, I'm sensitive. You're my mom. No, no, no, no. But the thing is, my brother calls me sensitive. And I'm like, I don't. So that's fine. That's the whole thing is that she's using it as a pejorative. She's saying like something's wrong with you, but you're going to own it and say, I'm sensitive. I love that about myself. It makes me more empathetic in the world. I love being sensitive. So you have a daughter who's sensitive and empathetic and very compassionate.

And I'll see you next time, Mom. Love you. Have a good day. That's it. Done. And if you do that, now the other part of it is consistency. So it is the consistency is so important. If one time you say, hey, mom, I'll see you later.

Love you. But, you know, this didn't work out today. but I know next time will be better. The next time that she does that, you don't leave or you don't end the call, then she's going to get the message that it's okay to do this sometimes. And nothing's ever going to change. It has to be every single time.

You have to be so consistent with that. Yeah, I mean, this takes some practice because I think so many people feel that like fire in your belly, like the second. Like it's so hard to stay calm in the moment. You're like, they did it again. Like, oh my God. Like it's just, this is probably a lot of,

of like deep breaths and just practice at this. And I think you would feel so accomplished when you can do it in the calm manner. We're right. So we have a saying, if it's hysterical, it's historical. So what we mean by that is if you feel that in your body, that intensity, that, you know, zero to 60 in your body, that's the hysterical. If it's hysterical, it's historical. Like you felt that a million other times with your mom. So you're layering on to this one interaction all the millions of other times that something like this has happened. So you have to remind yourself, wait, this is one incident. I'm not going to bring in all the other 500 million incidents. I'm just, I'm sitting here right now. She said this one thing. And if you can keep it in

perspective, because she said this one thing, I made a boundary with myself that I'm not going to put myself in situations where she says those kinds of things to me. So I'm going to leave for today. And hopefully next time it'll be better. You have to have that perspective. Absolutely. Do you feel like there's ever a fear from the child that the mom will just give up, that there have been too many, I need to go off the phone, I need to end this time together that the mom will be like, you know what, this is too many boundaries and I can't adhere to them. And so I want, you know, I'm not interested in bettering this relationship because of these boundaries. I got a letter to my dear therapist column actually

from a dad saying that his daughter was getting married and she had all these boundaries about what she did and did it once and it was just too much and you know all these things and and he said you know I don't my daughter said she wants boundaries in her relationship and he wrote and I don't want a bounded relationship. I wrote back and I said all relationships are bounded relationships. The relationships wouldn't exist if we didn't have boundaries. Relationships are not a free for all. And that's so important for people to remember relationships are not a free for all any relationship, even the best You can't just do anything willy-nilly in a relationship. You have to respect the other person's wants and needs.

That's the nature of relationship. And so parents who don't understand that, they clearly never had their own boundaries respected. They never learned about boundaries. They didn't have people who respected their limits. And I think that that's where you get, you know, children who grew up as people pleasers, too. I always say to people who are people pleasers, who taught you that their needs were more important than yours. Because that's what people pleasing is. The parent says my needs are more important than your needs.

You're going to need to please me. And then the child thinks, oh, I have to please everybody. And hopefully somebody wants to have a good relationship with you. Right, right. You know, I've said things that, I mean, probably seem a little stubborn, but, you know, my mom was harping on this one thing in particular that she didn't like. And I said, well, here's the solution. You can change this thing about yourself.

And she argued back with me and said, that doesn't happen. I don't do that, blah, blah, blah. And I said, you're telling me you a problem. I'm telling you the solution. I'd like you get on board with the solution. And I think we'll have a better relationship. And at least for us, again, one size fits one, but it has helped us because she said,

here's this thing I don't like. I said here's how I think we can fix it. And I appreciated that she changed. And I thanked her for changing. So that was really helpful to me in terms of like drawing a boundary and just saying this is just sort of is what it is. And she was welcome to tell me that I was wrong. I will tell you from all the estranged parents that either come into my practice

or come on the podcast or write to the column. that parents don't want to be estranged from their kids. Parents will do almost anything to have a relationship with their kids. The thing is they don't actually realize that they're pushing their kids away. Because it's always been like, oh, yeah, we have these fights, and then we just see each other again, and we don't really talk about it. And then we have another fight. And then, you know, that's just the nature of our relationship.

And we have kind of a difficult relationship. But it's not going anywhere. And when you start setting boundaries, they start to realize you're not threatening to leave, by the way. This is not an ultimatum. You're just saying, here's my boundary. If we're going to go to lunch, if we're going to talk on the phone, if we're going to do whatever we're going to do, I don't want your opinion, your critical opinion. If I want your opinion about something, I will specifically ask you.

And I mean, I assume that sometimes it's not as easy to name and it's not just like a straight criticism. You know, we have on our list, your mom being jealous of you, feeling competitive with being a martyr, just general guilt, feeling pressure to live up to a certain standard. I mean, therapy is also where you can help name it in terms of how, you know, it feels bad, but you're not exactly sure why, and it's a little hard to express to the parent. Yeah, they're baffles. They don't understand. Like, what am I doing? Right.

And I think even with something like you mentioned pressure, so a lot of times parents will feel like they're very well-meaning as in, you know, if you just get a, you know, I don't think that partner's right for you. Or, you know, if you just wear your hair this way. Or if you just, you know, I don't know what you're doing with your career. I don't know why you're doing that. You know, if you would do this, if you would do things the way that I did that. If you would do them or I didn't do them this way. So learn from my mistakes. Do them this way.

You know, if you do this career instead of this career. If you, you know, live here instead of there. If you, you know, live this way instead of that way. And I think that that's where the child has to say, you know, I understand that you really want to help me. And you think that I'm going to have a better life if I do the thing. that you're suggesting. But I really like the way that my life is going. I like the choices that I'm making. And if I want your advice on these things or if I want to run something by you, I promise you, I will come do that. But this is not helpful for me because we have different ideas about what my life

should look like. And I'm the only person who gets to live my life. So I'm going to make those choices. I love that. Yeah. Do you see a lot of jealous feels like a little too easy of a word, but like feeling competitive. It's all kind of tied up in the daughter having things that the mom didn't have, whether it's this healthy romantic relationship or the career or the looks even. I mean, does it boil down to jealousy? I mean, it's like your daughter has things that you weren't able to achieve in your own life. Yeah, absolutely.

And I think that that's so taboo and it doesn't get talked about enough. And the problem is that it doesn't get talked about. So I think if people could voice this and talk about this, it would kind of normalize it a little bit. I think as people age and if they have regrets about their lives, then they sees their child living the life that they wish that they had had in some way, that there might be some envy there. But where it starts to take over is where they have nowhere to go with it

and they feel a lot of shame around it. So they don't even really, they're not really even aware of it. So what they do is they try to sort of cut down the daughter. And they don't realize they're doing that. They wouldn't, they're not even consciously doing it. that. But it's like the little comments, the little criticisms, the little digs here and there. And sometimes it's like not overt sabotaging, but just kind of like not really being on board with some of these good things in the way. Like they're not as excited as they should be.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. I knew a couple. And I was like, I found myself being like, I think she's, the mom's jealous. I think she's jealous of your relationship. And that's why she's not approving of it. And she says she doesn't like him. There's really nothing. She has nothing to really back it up, I think that you found this really incredible love that she doesn't really have and it's coming out in this exactly like you said, almost like a sabotaging way. Yeah, it's hard. I mean, I think I have a lot of empathy for those parents where, you know, they didn't have it and they're watching it happen and they have a lot of conflicting feelings. On the one hand, they're thrilled that their daughter's life is turning out that way.

and it puts right in front of them, it holds up a mirror to all of the things that they didn't have. And so it's both and. And I think that it's so hard when the moms, you know, aren't aware of it or they feel so much shame around it that they can't talk about it. It's so incredibly common. Yeah, we've seen it.

And it's tough because you're like, where is this coming from? And I think that you obviously... Yeah, I found myself on multiple... I don't like to boil everything down to jealousy, but I found myself on multiple occasions, be like, your parents jealous of you or she, you know, like, that's from, at least from my, you know, birds eye view. But I, I think also sometimes parents are, you know, boomer parents, I guess.

Like, they're of a different time with when it comes to feelings and therapy and emotions, especially with dads, you know, or I see so many moms and dads and I'm like, they would benefit so much from therapy, but they can be more stubborn and they just don't, like you said, maybe even understand how they're feeling and it's coming out in these strange ways and then there's shame on top of that. Can we talk about how to deal with it? Because I don't know that you, like if you said, if I said to my mom, you're just jealous to me. That's why you're saying it's over well. So like, I don't know, like saying you criticize me too much as easy saying you don't set boundaries to me as little not easy, but easier than saying I think you're jealous of me. Well, first of all,

Just going back to how we talk to our moms, I probably wouldn't use the word boundaries. You know, I think right away, if anyone says to you, like, I want to set a boundary with you, already you feel like I'm being pushed away. I'm being excluded. You don't really say that. You just say, hey, mom, when you do this, that really does me. You know, like, yeah. So with like envy, for example, I would say, you know, you want to talk about, you don't

want to sort of psychoanalyze somebody else. Nobody likes that. That never goes over well with your partner with a partner. parent. Nobody wants that. So I think what you want to do is you want to talk about your own experience. Hey, mom, I'm confused. Like, I'm really happy in this relationship, but you seem to to point out things, you know, you sort of kind of like have this negative attitude about the relationship. What's going on? Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Well, I don't know. I'm just not sure that he's right for you or she's right for you or, you know, whatever it is. And you can say, okay, well, tell me why. And you hear. And then

then you say, okay, well, I feel differently. And I don't think it's really helpful since I'm the one in the relationship. I don't think it's really helpful for you to keep telling me that. I hear what you say. What I really would love from you, mom, for the sake of our relationship is for you to support me and my joy in this relationship. And if it goes wrong, it goes wrong. And I'll have to deal with that. But that's where I am right now. I'm really happy. Sure. It's really asking for what you need and making clear that, you know, here's my limit. And then be consistent about it. So if your mom then keeps saying negative things, you say, mom, you know, again, going back to it, I'm going to get off the phone because I just, I don't really want to talk about my partner that way. That's not a conversation I want to have. This to me feels like the hardest one to tackle.

Like, I think that some people can take a step back, realize that they're being critical, that they're being, I think you see so many parents even just ease up on that, you know, the pressure, the criticisms. but when there's this deep rooted senior child live the life that you wanted or achieve things that you never could or never did, I mean, does this get better? It can. It can. I think, again, you want to create some trust in the relationship.

And that's not about blaming the parent. You know, often I'll see something when you talk about the difference between the generations. You know, a parent who maybe didn't have the career that she wanted and sees her daughter having this sort of like amazing career, or we'll say things like, you know, you really should make sure you're looking for a partner or, you know, whatever it is. Or you shouldn't work so hard. You work too hard. Those kinds of things. And it sounds like it's coming from a place of concern, but sometimes it's coming from a place of unconscious envy. Like, I didn't get to have that life. I would have liked to have had that life. It wasn't really available to women when I was my daughter's age in the same way.

Yeah. Right. Part of that is just I wish I could have even had the opportunity that you, have. Yeah, yeah. And again, going back to even, I wish that I had been loved the way that I loved my daughter, even if your daughter doesn't feel exactly loved in that way, you know, a lot of moms who came from, it's, you know, what we call generational trauma. So it gets passed down and passed down until somebody says, I'm going to be the person who stops it. And it's usually the adult child who goes to therapy and says, I'm going to stop this. Because a lot of therapy is like, the person who comes to therapy is coming because the other people won't go to therapy. Like the people who actually should be in therapy, they won't go. So you're the one going. And then again, going back to

what we're talking about, you're resentful that you're the one who has to go because you were the, what we call the identified patient in the family, the IP. So you're the one who was like too sensitive, always calling things out, always, you know, like naming the things that we didn't want to name in our family. You couldn't just go with the flow like everybody else. You were the one who sort of called out the problems. You were the truth teller in the family. How important to be that person as much as you're like, I shouldn't have to fucking do this. The weight of this generational trauma is on my shoulders. It's also so admirable. You want to live a different life. I mean, the only way for things to change is for you to end the cycle.

Yeah, I'm saying like I admire this person, you know, good for you to. Right. It takes a lot of courage to do that. And it takes a lot of courage to go and say, you know what, I'm coming, not because I want to change my mom. but I'm coming because I want to change me. I don't want to live with all of this sadness and anger and anxiety and resentment and whatever else you're coming with and the relationships that aren't sort of going the way that I want them to go. I want to find a way to live my life in a different way. I don't want my life to be so difficult.

And your kids, if you're future family. And if you become a parent, you certainly, you want to, you know, there's this really seminal paper called The Go. in the nursery. And it's about how if we don't heal in whatever way, the wounds that we had as children, then we pass them along, even though we swear, you know, we always say, I will not do to my kids what my parent did, what my mom did, what my dad did, whatever it is that, you know, whoever disappointed you as a child. First of all, we tend to pick partners who are like those people if we don't. You know, we say we marry our unfinished business. So what happens is we end up

choosing partners who will wound us in the same way that we were wounded. We don't. see it at first, but that's what happens. And then we end up being parents who are going to wound our children in whatever ways that we were wounded. And we, you know, it's like we swear we're not going to be like our parents and how many people do you see who are exactly like their parents? Wow. Yeah. Really important that you figure this stuff out. Maybe it would be really helpful to wrap up with some tips for like your articles, things that people can read, good books. Not everybody can afford therapy. But do you have any resources and recommendations? Yes. So they can listen to the Dear Therapist podcast, which has so many episodes about mothers and their adult children. They can read

the Dear Therapist column in the Atlantic, which also has so many letters about that. They can read, maybe you should talk to someone, which has a story in there about a mother whose adult children will not talk to her and how they end up repairing those relationships. relationships, and this is a long time estrangement, and the mother thinks her children will never talk to her again. And it's, I think, very much what we've been talking about today. There's also a workbook that goes with maybe you should talk to someone where you can work through some of this stuff in the way that I work with people in the therapy room. And there's a journal coming out in November that might also be helpful. There's a book that's called emotionally immature parents, not my book, but I think it's very helpful for people to

understand a little bit about why their parents maybe couldn't give them the kind of childhood that they wanted. And there's another book called Mother Hunger, which I think a lot of people might be interested in. Well, Lori, thank you so much. You, I mean, obviously it goes out saying you're just so well-versed on this subject and you're such a pro. I mean, we were stressed about this episode because we were like, there's so many topics and it's so case by case and you just nailed it. everything. I think this is going to be really life-changing for a lot of listeners. And we really appreciate you taking the time and speaking on this with us. It's really so important and affects so many people. Yeah. Yeah. No, my pleasure. Everything Ashley said. Thanks so much. Thank you so much,

Lori. Thank you. Bye. Take care. Bye. And you guys know where to find us. I'm mixing it up this week, I'm going girls got to be first. Girls got to go. You never know. We got a new app release and you're going girls got to eat first. Damn, you're right. Okay. You know what? No, no, no, no. No, no.

You're right. Vivesonly.com. And you can shop the products at vibes only.com and you can download the app for Apple and Android. Get that on Google Play. And there is some free content to lure you in. The controller is free now. And hopefully you guys will end up subscribing to have access to all the content that we offer. You can follow along on Instagram.

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