Girls Gotta Eat - Reviving, Repairing, and Revving Up Your Sex Life feat. Dr. Ian Kerner

Episode Date: May 10, 2021

It's episode 169 (!!) and we brought back one of our favorite and most impactful guests, psychotherapist and best-selling author Dr. Ian Kerner, for another important discussion about sex. This time around, we're discussing the "sex script" and some of the main issues that plague couples including lack of sex/sexual satisfaction in the relationship, mismatched sex drives, boredom in the bedroom, and more. And we're tackling topics applicable to everyone regarding foreplay (and getting the kind you want), orgasms (or lack thereof), oral sex, and communication. Plus, we catch up on our Florida trip. Hope you enjoy! Order Ian's book here and see more on his website. Follow us on Instagram @GirlsGottaEatPodcast, Rayna @Rayna.Greenberg, and Ashley @AshHess. Check our website for show dates, merchandise, and more. Thank you to our partners this week: Native: Get 20% off your first purchase at nativedeodorant.com/gge or use the code GGE at checkout. Buffy: For $20 off your first purchase of $80 or more, visit buffy.co and use code GGE. Ritual: Get 10% off during your first 3 months at ritual.com/gge. Rory: Try out Nightly Defense for just $5 at hellorory.com/gge. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So what are you going to do? You're going to go on that ride alone? Your partner does not have the fast pass. They can't get on the ride as quickly. So what are you going to do? You tell us. Welcome back to another episode of Girl Scotty. Welcome back.

It's episode 169. We've gotten through 169 episodes. I've never had to record sick. And here we are. I recorded sick the entire year of 2018. I don't have COVID. I don't have strep. I just came from the doctor.

I'm just real fucked up. I two last night last night. I'm hungover. You're all fucked up. I want to talk about it's like to go to CitiMD and ask for a test other than a COVID test. They're like, bitch, what? We'll talk about it. Also, with episode 169, I already feel like I sucked a dick today.

They throat swabbed me so hard. I gagged so many times. I stay getting strapped throat. If you don't, we'll talk about it. Yeah, CityMD is crazy because no one's there. If you have been in New York during like pre-vaccine, it was insane. You would like, there would be lines wrapped around the block. And then they started like a virtual line.

Even like the last time I got a COVID test, I was actually number 69. And it took all day. I think they called me back seven hours later. Like it was insane. So today I walked in, not one person in there. They took me. I checked it on, I checked it at the like iPad, whatever. As soon as I sat down, they called me back.

They were so excited to have a patient. Like no one. No one is sick. they were like Ashley Asseltyen, come on back. They were like, let's test you for COVID for strep and throat culture. Let's see what's going on. Like they were so amped up. Even if people are sick, they won't admit it.

No one's admit they're sick anymore. When I was to see MD a few weeks ago, I walked in. I was so out of sorts. I was like, hi, I don't feel good. I don't think I have COVID, but it feels like COVID, but I've been vaccinated. And also I think it might be strep, but it's probably not strapped, but it has trouble a lot of times.

And I also doesn't feel like, she was like, bitch, what? I know. Go sit over there. I just wanted to go because if there's something I can do to get better soon. being sick. Like more than anybody that I know you hate it. Like I was going to Peloton today. Like I'm pissed.

I get pissed. I'm like mad. Actually stormed to the studio. I'm in a bad mood and I'm sick. Wait. Also, is it weird that we both got sick in the same month? Haven't been sick in years. Both got sick in the same month.

You didn't even talk about being sick. You got sick at probably the worst possible time. You could have been sick. I am always a mess when I'm with my new man. I either have my period or I have a viral plague. There is no in between. I was a snot factory the last time he was here. It was disgusting.

And then he was in Miami with us and I got my period. I got my period the last time I was with him. Oh my God. If anyone's curious, Raina is sitting six feet away for me. But she's already had this, whatever this is. I think it's just like a cold. Like you probably just have a cold. I'm like, bitch, I am dying.

You probably got it at the Orlando airport. All those kids. Hundreds of strollers. Oh my God. Anyway, guys, episode 169. We made it. We're here. I'm so excited about this.

We do have a sex episode today. Dr. Ian Kerner, one of our absolute favorites. So we're going to get into that with him. We're going to keep this intro short. because the interview was long, but also because I don't want to do this. I'm the walking opinion. I'm sorry I was late.

I didn't want to come. I'm wearing a matching and sweatsuit. You didn't even comment on it. I actually really love this outfit. Azul is being so cute. It's insane. Guys, he's on my seat on the couch. Okay, first of all, this is a $40 set from Target.

It's amazing. So cute. And Azul is just, if anybody wants an update, he's just the sweetest angel ever. We came back early because I missed him from Florida. and I cannot believe I was even for one second thinking I wasn't going to adopt him. I love him so much. He just, he's a complete angel.

All right, Raina, let's talk about Florida. You just, you take it away. Guys, we're in Florida. Ever heard of it? So we had shows in Miami, then Tampa, then Orlando. It felt so good to be back on stage. I feel like I love our audience so much and I like, I feel like I'm like even more in my feels when we're in front of them and I get to watch them laugh.

They can participate in the show. They can come on stage with us. You guys really like. came out and drove, brought your girlfriends, brought your girlfriends and your husbands. The couples. Loved it. The most we've ever seen. By far.

And I just think people, like when I'm excited for like the future is I think that people are just like excited to be out in the world, excited to be with their partners, excited to socialize. And so like, yeah, this fun, cool thing, I'll definitely go with you. And it just, it really like, I'm so amazed by our audience and how funny and cool and fun they are. And we just loved it. We loved every minute. We did an improv tour, Miami, Tampa, and Orlando Improv. Ashley and I were on a couple's trip for half of it. Oh my God.

Well, I just love, I mean, one of the things I love the most is, like, seeing people that, like, we always say it's brought us so much closer to people, like, because of, like, friends from college and, like, friends we've had, you know, like, we had friends and family. I did, like, in every city. It was just so nice for them to come to the show. And Orlando was incredible, like, just, I mean, the Disney jokes alone. We just had such a good time, especially the second show was, like, so wild. But both of them were so great. Tampa, obviously in Cinco de Mayo, was so much fun. And then Miami, our second home.

It truly is our second home. Like, you and I've been there together so many times at this point. It's the most, have we been there more times together? Delaware, Delaware Top. Yeah, but that's like Delaware Chop, Miami Second. And then Jared Freed was a surprise drop in at our Miami show just randomly happened to be there. And he graciously volunteered to come on stage. So that was really fun.

Looking like a snack. He looks good, man. He really glowed up. Jared Freed, we love him. But your man was there. Yeah, so he came down on Friday. You made me there on Sunday. This was like our first trip together.

And I will say the bathrooms at the hotel, not ideal. This hotel in production, so Ashley and I did an episode three years ago traveling with your partner and like shitting in a hotel room with your partner. First of all, I'm like relearning how to just be in a relationship in general. Did a minute? But the bathroom at the Marriott that we were staying at does not have a door that shuts. It has a door that slides and it sticks four inches out from the wall so that your partner can hear you, smell you, watch you take a shit. So that killed the romance a little bit,

constantly having to be like, I'm going to go to the lobby. But we made it through. It was nice to see that he wanted to like do the same activities as me, wake up at the same time, be adventurous, try new foods, fit in with my friends again. We had like a really fun dinner, all of us, um, fitting with you as a Thruple. He's, he's great. I like him so much. likes you so much. We just had such a good time. We did all the fun things. I have to say right last night, I just like, I don't know why. I'm not planning on moving, but I like to look on street easy sometimes, just like see what's going on. And I saw a few one bedroom, two bathroom apartments. And like that is the, I mean, I want two bedrooms if I'm ever going to live with anybody,

which I don't want to. But like, we've always talked about this. I'm like, I did see a few one bedroom, two bathrooms. That's what I need in my life. Yeah. I need a bathroom like in the hall. Yeah. I don't want to be like, don't go in there after me. Like, I just don't want to to talk about it. But other than that, it was really great. This is the first time he was ever seeing me perform and we hadn't been on stage in six months. So I was like, how's this going to go? But it was really fun. And I had so much fun on stage with you. And I think that you and I just got right back into it. It was fun to like Riff. Jared was really fun with us. And I think like he enjoyed like watching us on stage. So it alleviated a lot of my stress because the audience was like

so great and so much fun. Oh my God. Every show. I had so much fun with you. Well, I guess I sort of kind of met somebody in Miami. Yes, you did. I love him. I miss him. We ate at Carbone, us and then Raina's best friend other than me and her boyfriend, but we, this guy at the table next to us. Raina had seen him in the bathroom earlier, but he sat down. He was at the table, like kind of sitting his back was like our backs were to each other. And I look over and I was like, that is a 50 year old fuck boy. Tell me I'm wrong. And I just was like, not in a bad way, just like silver ponytail, like tight jeans. Like he looked like a fuck boy, but at like 50. And I was like, that guy is never going to settle down. Like I was like, I'm just getting a vibe.

And somehow we started talking about, oh, because he saw you in the bathroom. And so we, our table starts talking to his table. Then it just got really funny. He was like making fun of me. I mean, I think I made fun of him first. I made fun of his jeans. And then. Why do you make fun of you, Ashley? Because I had a little bit of a summer. A little bit of a sunburn. You had a big assyvern on your back. What do he say? Don't you have any friends? No one can put sunscreen on your back. This guy started roasting you so hard. I was so turned on by.

You know, I love it. He was like, he, would you go to the beach by yourself? You don't have any friends to put sunscreen on. It was so funny. And then I don't even know how to happen. He was like, I have my, well, I mean, he had his helmet there at the table. But he was like, I have my motorcycle here. And he walked out with us.

He was like, you want to go for a ride? And I was like, yeah. I don't know if I've ever talked about this in the podcast. I love motorcycles. I love, I've dated multiple guys with motorcycles. I think it's so hot. it's so sexy. I'm so into it. Not like a Harley. Not like a guy that's going to Daytona bike week. But like he had a triumph, which is, I love that. And he got with like a Dukati. Like I'm so turned on.

I can't believe the words are even coming out of your mouth. I don't know. I dated a guy with a triumph. That guy, I dated him all summer. He gave him my first orgasm. It's a UK brand, whatever. I didn't know. I didn't know about this. Seriously. So I like hopped on and it was like this. We just took a spit around the block. But I just, that's the thing I'm really into. also he was tall and he like a barrel chest and long hair that guy was hot and Turkish yeah oh this is what I was gonna say

like I love motorcycles so much and of course like always wear a helmet you know we just took it for a spin around the block but I just feel like I'll hop on one with anybody because they turn me on like that's I'm probably gonna die like that and it's gonna be like she died doing what she loved getting on motorcycles of strangers

I remember Merrill went on a date the night before this date Rob had like gassed her up to start dating This was years ago. She is a boyfriend now. But like gastroped, like get back out there. Merrill set a date for the next morning at 10 a.m. She went on a breakfast date.

And she went out of this guy who sounded so cool. He was an underwater welder. How was that a job? Like for Bridges. And he had. There are so many jobs in the world. They had like a coffee date. And then she was like, I have to go to Brooklyn.

And he was like, I'll take you on my motorcycle. And she didn't go. And I like flipped out on her. I was like, Merrill, how could you pass that up? This hot guy who just had a morning date. He was fucking cool. He was a cool job. and he, like, offered to take you to wherever the fuck you had to go on his motorcycle.

You didn't go. Like, Rob and I lit her up. Of course, you did. Of course, Merrill didn't go. This is so Merrill. She's like, it's not safe. It's early in the morning. I can't go.

And, I mean, my dad has had motorcycles. My brother, like, so I feel like they're safer, but, I mean, I don't know. Be careful out there. Again, that's probably how I'm going to go out. So I have never been on a motorcycle. I don't think ever in my entire life. So I do get nervous about them, and they scare me a little bit. But that guy just looked so hot.

You look trustworthy. outfit. Not really. He looks like he knows how to ride motorcycle. Yeah, he looks like you can trust him to ride a motorcycle. We walked back to the hotel and we like waited out front for you for a few minutes. And I was like, that pitch is never coming home. But he and I, we're messaging.

He said he's coming here soon. But he seems like a guy that like isn't. Like he seems like he's like, yeah, yeah, I'll be in New York for business in a couple weeks. And he like never. Like he seems like he's a fuck boy. He's so much going on. He was the tableful like restaurant tours from New Orleans. He's this Turkish guy.

He's got so much shit going on. He leaves his friends to drive the school. scroll home as motorcycle. That guy was a lot. I mean, I'm rooting for it. But Florida was great. Thank you guys for coming out. We can't wait to do more shows. We will let you know what we can

plan, what is safe. A bunch of our dates are TBD. We'll let you guys know everything that we can as soon as we know. I think that's it. I have no new wrecks. I didn't watch any TV this week. I came home yesterday. Actually, you know what? It's older, but I watched a doc yesterday. I watched the Harvey Weinstein

doc untouchable from 2019. I didn't even know about that. I didn't either. It's on Hulu. No one knows about anything on Hulu. But I mean, it's not a feel-good watch, but it's an interesting take on how somebody can get away with something for so long in plain sight that everybody knows about. I think it's always important to just remind ourselves that even though like Me Too was

such an amazing movement and I feel like people's voices are so strong. It's important to always just keep remembering to have a voice, speak up, say something and try to take people like this down, hold them accountable. So that was what I watched yesterday. And then other than that, I watched a lot of chopped. Okay. On Food Network. I'm still so deep in All-American last night.

Season two should come with a trigger warning. I just cried all night. That's probably why my throat hurts. I was just holding Azul's paws, crying, watching All-American. I wanted to give a correction from last week. Well, not a correction. I guess I kind of forgotten to mention that All-American, which is a show that I'm loving, there's two seasons on Netflix.

There is a third season, I believe, on the CW app. It's a CW show. Anyway, it is based on a true story. I forgot to say the last week. We said fictional. I kind of forgot, which makes it even more incredible. But it's my favorite show right now. I'm just like, I can't wait to go downstairs and finish watching it.

And then figure out how I get this CW fucking app and watch season three. She's not even sick. She's just like, I need to go downstairs to finish watching this. That's why I don't want to be here. So yeah, All-American Second Week in a row can't recommend enough based on a true story. Yep. And that's it. Episode 169.

Yes, guys. You're still out here not liking 69ing. Nothing has changed. It's fucking stupid and I stand by it. Tom Sigour does like a great bit in his like most recent special called Ball Hog where he talks about how like you grow up and you hear about 69. You're like, that's the coolest thing ever. You spend so many years like giggling about 69. Then you try it and you're like, this is ridiculous.

I know, but I will take anything at this point. Some guys like we just up to 69. I'm like, great. All I heard was you're going to eat my pussy. I'll do whatever. It's been so long. we have a friend who said that she's 69 with her boyfriend, but only when he's on top. And we were shocked.

Yeah. I still can't understand how that happens. Mounce her face, basically. And then if you guys want to listen to episode 69, it truly is like one of our favorite episodes. I remember the intro being really funny. And then it's called Is He Microcheting? Oh, great episode. And a lot of you guys, if you are newer here, you do have those questions of like, my

guy's doing weird stuff on social media. Like, what can I be mad about? Like, what's considered quote unquote, cheating, what's not, you know, so that was a great episode for that. Okay. Let's get into it. I'm excited. Also, I'm not sick during this interview.

It was pre-it. So they're like, we hate the way you sound right now. They're like, Ashley's energy all really changed when that man came into the room. Like, she's dying. Anyway, so this won't continue, but I'm going to take it away. Okay, guys, we are so excited to welcome back a guest to the studio. He is a writer, speaker, psychotherapist, and nationally recognized sexuality. counselor who specializes in sex therapy and couples therapy. He is regularly quoted as an expert

in the Atlantic, The New York Times, The Economist, NPR, and CNN. I've ever heard of it? He is the author of a number of books, including the New York Times bestselling book. She Comes First and his newest title. So tell me about the last time you had sex. He is finally back as a returning guest after years. Please welcome to the studio, Dr. Ian Kerner. I am so excited. It was great to walk across town and be here and be live. Your first day. place. Oh man, I'm totally psyched. Yay. There's a beautiful day, you know. Well, welcome. Well, you're the first person in the pink chair. We are in person. We just,

we love having you here. And we're going to talk all about sex and all the problems that everybody has, you know, normal sex stuff. Yeah. And I have to tell you, your first episode, which now, I mean, coming up on three years ago, probably summer of 2018, I believe we recorded with you, I mean, I remember finishing it, like editing it and getting ready to put out into the world. And I was like, Raina, we should win an award for this. Like, the, This is just, it was still one of our absolute favorite episodes. We feel like we know that it changed people's lives. And so we're going to pick up where we left off.

We're going to keep talking about sex. Yeah, we're going to be talking about it. Yeah. So you have, let's reintroduce you, you have 20 years of experience in psychotherapy, focusing on sex with couples and individuals, right? Okay. And you're a Jewish New Yorker. I'm a Jewish New Yorker.

And you're having the best sex of your life with your wife recently. Oh, boy. Okay, we're going to go straight into it. Yes. I am in my, I'm in my 50s and kids are a little older now. And, uh, no, the one still comes in and sometimes, you know, bus open the door. But yes, more free time and back to sort of feeling like a little more of a couple again, unless just as mom and dad.

But I just think that's so important for people to hear. I think that there is probably points in relationships, marriages primarily where the sex has dissipated and you wonder, will we ever get it back? So you're proof of that. Plenty of other people are as well. Absolutely. I mean, we went through that in our own marriage, too. I mean, sex has a lot of ups and downs.

I mean, when you're in a long-term relationship, you really have to think about how to keep it going. You definitely hit a lot of, you know, walls and bumps in the road, and you have to get creative about, you know, getting around them. But it's definitely an energy that can sustain a relationship. I love to hear it.

I do also. I'm only seeing a sex therapist that's fucking, okay? I'm not out of seeing why it isn't fucking. But I'm not going to go to a trainer that's not fit. I'm not going to a stylist who can't dress. Absolutely. Why would you go to a sex therapist? She was not fucking. Do what you love and love what you do, right?

That's what it's all about. Well, we ask people what they really want to hear from you, what their sex questions are. A lot of the same stuff came up just over and over again. And we'll talk about your book. So tell me about the last commute sex and how it all ties in. But a lot of questions about, mismatched libidos, wanting it more than your partner. We'll talk about the sex script. If sex has dissipated, it different times in the relationship, and obviously the takeaways

of how to get it back, always. So what should we start with? Well, you want to tell us, I mean, She Comes First is your first book, pretty self-explanatory title. And we talked about that a lot more when we chatted with you years ago. What really inspired this book? I mean, just your overall practice and what you heard. So it's interesting. You know, first of all, she comes first, that was a book that could only be titled, She Comes First. There was no other title. It couldn't have been anything else, and that's what it was. And I feel the same way about this new book, so tell me about the last time you had sex.

It could not have had a different title because it's the essence of the book. And that is the question that I ask all couples, all individuals who come into my sex therapy practice. Once I've heard about the problem, it could be a desire issue, it could be a sexual function issue, like a rectile unpredictability in a guy, early ejaculation, an orgasm issue. Once I've learned about the problem, I will always ask them, so tell me about the last time you had sex, because I want to hear about sex in action, right? People want to fix their sex lives, right? So I want to hear about what sex looks like in action, and a sexual event is a story. It has a beginning, a middle, and an end. It's a series of interactions. And I sort of call that the sex script that sort of runs,

underneath a sexual event. And I want to help couples basically rewrite their sex scripts. So the thing is when I ask them that question, sometimes they can't even remember. Sometimes we don't even get past a question because a couple will argue about, well, no, we actually did it then. No, it's been two years. No, it's only been a year. Remember that anniversary.

You're like, okay, we got to really back up with you. You guys already on the same page about when it happened. And I love that you talk about, you know, who initiated it. how do you get into it, how long until you're having penetrative sex, all that is just like part of it. Absolutely. So when I say a sex script, I mean literally from who initiated, where did it happen, when did it happen, was the beginning erotic, who undressed who, what activities did you engage in, what activities didn't you engage in? Did you get turned on? Did someone get left behind? Did you build enough arousal to get lost in pleasure? Did you both have orgasms? Did one partner have an orgasm?

When it's all done, did you just grab your iPhone and get out of bed or did you hang out and connect? And then what's the erotic thread or the connection between sexual events that brings you back to sex? So all of that to me is sort of the sex script that I'm looking at and analyzing and helping couples change. I didn't even think about that. Like when it's over, do you guys like sit and ruminate in it? Do you enjoy each other? Do you pick up your phone? Like, do you sit there and say, I love that you're just like opening up all these different areas. So, well, and there was something, maybe it's in the, it was in one of the descriptions, maybe it's in the back of the book, I don't know. But, and I think couples feel like this where you're in bed with somebody of you never felt so far away from them.

Absolutely. Which is so sad. We always say it's like such a sadder thought to feel alone when you're in a relationship than just be to feel, or to feel lonely in a relationship. Yeah, I think sex is one of those areas where you can feel extra lonely because as a couple, you're, you. you kind of, look, you know how to talk about your friends or you know how to talk about in-laws, you know, how to argue about chores, but we really don't necessarily. I mean, that's why your podcast is so great because you're hoping to just have a dialogue and give people the language to talk about these issues because they're not talking about it. Listen, when I'm

sitting on a couch with someone and I'm talking about the last time they had sex, sometimes it's the first time they're ever talking to each other about this. And it's to me. It's to a stranger, somebody they've never met. And so there is that, that gulf because sex can be just such a taboo topic and a source of shame. So I want to talk about what people are overwhelmingly asked, which is like mismatched libidos and how to get into it. But maybe we start from the beginning, which is like how much sex is normal to be having with a partner. And like, you know, the longer the relationship goes on, how, you know, if it was crazy in the beginning and then you stop having sex or if you've never had sex, like, I'm sure it's a loaded question.

So how much sex should you be expecting to have a partner? Okay, well, let's talk about it from a couple of perspectives. Like, first of all, there have been studies that have shown that couples who have sex once a week have higher levels of overall relationship positivity than couples who have sex less than once a week. And couples who have sex two, three, four, five times a week don't necessarily have higher levels of positivity. So there is something about that once a week number that I think we can talk about as a number. as a number. But look, sex is, sex is really variable. It has, it's sort of like the stock market. It goes up. It goes down. Like it has these big swings. But when you get really into the weeds

and near experience, there's so many different factors that are affecting it. You know, you're, like for example, I'm having more sex than I've had in a while. Again, the kids are out of the house, but I also went on a plant-based diet. So I feel like a little healthier. You look great, by the way. Oh, thanks. I appreciate that. I feel a little better, a little healthier in my body. So like how much sex you should be having is also determined by sort of like where you are in your life and what is the context, diet, exercise, lifestyle, how you feel about your partner. Did you get a new dog? Did you get a new dog? Dogs are good for your sex life. Did you hear that guys? Dogs are good for your sex life. Lots of, lots of petting and touching and

getting the oxytocin going with a dog. Baby talk. I was kidding. I work out my dirty talk with my dog. You practice your dirty talk with your dog. No, I don't. He does now. He's like, Azul has to sit with you.

But that's, it's just, we're not going on this row, but you could because I was just, it's, it's more, it's better than talking to the wall. Who are they going to tell? Who are they going to tell? maybe we talk to couples that like because our audience is a little bit younger so we probably aren't speaking to people who have had kids at this point or some people that had kids

but maybe like younger couples that have been that don't have kids have been together for you know one two three five years so I think this is a thing in the beginning of a relationship obviously especially if you're in a relationship that feels like it could be one that you're going to stick with I think you do go through you sort of

there is this neurochemical cocktail that really fuels like infatuation and sex. So it's really normal to go through a phase where you're having a lot of sex. You kind of can't keep your hands off of each other. And then it's really normal for that sort of cocktail to diminish. Is it dopamine and noraphenifrin?

Ashley's the doctor. How do you say it? Dopamine, noraphyran. It's all in that cocktail, right? And there's a lot of newness. There's a lot of expansion. and you're getting to know somebody. So it's not really until you're into like the first or second year of a relationship

that you can figure out, well, how are we really sexually suited? Like what is our natural libidos? Are we in? Are we complimentary or not? Right. So you can totally enter into that relationship and just not know. So yes, you can sort of wake up one day and start to realize, wait, what's going on? Like, our libidos are mismatched or our sexual personality.

armist match. Like I'm more of an adventurer or a thrill seeker and like he or she's more of like a couch potato or a comfort sex person. It really is like when the lights come on at the club. Like it's so like when the drugs wear off. You know like you've just been dancing your ass off. You're like am I Beyonce? And then like the lights come on. You're like what is going on here? Like it's it's we say that all the time. Like you can get by on the love drugs for a while. You really can. You really can. And then you can really be like shocked. And then, you know, and then on top of it, we have all of these sort of like spoon-fed cultural ideas.

Like you should always be having sex or sex should be spontaneous or you should never have to plan sex or you should be able to look at each other across a room and want it. So I feel like then you also are like, what's going on and like, is this normal? And hey, if I felt that way in the first year, shouldn't I always be feeling that way? And so that's a time where sometimes people break up because they feel like they're mismatched. So I really do try and, like, coach and push people through that point to kind of figure out a new desire framework or a new sexual framework. Because I think a lot of couples kind of give up at that point. And you talked about years ago on the first time we talked to you, and I think about it a lot where you said that, like, if you don't develop that language between you, yeah, from day one of, like, the dirty talk and the role playing and whatever it is,

that you get excited by. It is hard to wake up one day, two years later and be like, but I want this. It seems like you really coach people on how to do that because that's tough. Yeah, it's expressing two things, I think. It's being able to talk about sex, the way you talk about any other topic in a constructive way and talk about what's working and what's not. That's an important part of talking about sex. But here's the other thing.

I talk a lot in the book about sex scripts, and I want to be clear, it's more than just like a sequence of behaviors. it's more than just what you're doing. We want our sex scripts to be alive, to be erotic, to be sexy, to be emotional. So that's a language where you have to be willing to play with each other and get creative and have that kind of vulnerability. Absolutely. And I mean, again, like this was a large part of the other episode of like developing those

tools early on. So you have them. Because I also want to tell people like, okay, so the love drugs have worn off. Here we are. we're two years into the relationship, we're not having a lot of sex. Like, where do we go from here? Obviously, you can't go back and change time. So we're giving you guys advice early on, kind of develop those tools early on. But what can we tell people that are in that place? Like, where do you start? And we're talking about the place sort of where things are starting to differ,

like you're kind of at a fork in the road. Well, the first thing is like, figure out that your desire framework is going to change. And you and your partner are not going to just see each other and want to rip each other's clothes off, right? So there's going to be changes to desire, and what is the new desire framework? You know, for example, if you're a guy and you were in a relationship, and in the first year, it's like all it took was like, you know, your partner bending over and you were ready to have sex, you know, like sometimes we can be in a framework, men or women where we can like gobble up a sexual cue, right? Like a little tasty glimpse of flesh. We can just gobble it up and it goes like straight to our genitals and it's like,

we're ready to go. That's a form of desire, call that spontaneous desire or highly reactive desire. But then you can get to a point in your relationship where that same cue, that same thing that you're sort of, you don't gobble it up in the same way. And so you need more cues, or you need to generate the arousal and generate the connection and generate. And generate the cues that are going to lead to the emergence of desire. So I guess what I want to say is sex goes from being something that's kind of like spontaneous that you just feel as a reflex to something that you really do have to cultivate a little bit.

And that's okay. That's not like, oh, something's wrong because we have to work at sex a little bit, you know. I see what you're saying, because sometimes you're like walk into a room, your partner's just laying there, Cleva just hanging out on the bed. She's reading a book and you're like, I got to get in those titties. And that goes away after a while. You're like, she fucking nagged me all week. I don't want this.

Yeah. I like you're giving people permission to, like, not feel like that anymore and work on it. So right, especially if you don't have all this knowledge, what you think is like, wait, but we used to just look at each other and like want to rip each other's clothes off and we don't need more. And I love that you're saying that, okay, wait a minute, that doesn't mean that it's time to break up or there's a problem in the relationship. Right. So let's say like, let's say you're in a relationship where the guy was always in a shit. And right, he'd come into bed, he'd see those tithies and he'd want to like gobble them up, right? and now

well look I'm looking at a wall of tithies and thank you for speaking our language please thank you for taking your views from radar I mean I said I started it gobble up those chains gobble me swallow me but here's a thing

so if that guy's desire framework is starting to shift a little bit I think for the partner in the relationship and let's just say that partner happens to be a woman And I think she could start to wonder like, hey, what's going on? Is he not into me? Am I not sexy enough? Like, why is he not initiating?

There can be a pressure that she starts to put on herself. There can be a pressure that she starts to put on him to initiate. I mean, you know, I think that with our initial desire frameworks also come like a set of expectations and in a way stereotype. So we have to be willing to see our partners differently as well. Right, because you're like, I know my partner and he always initiates. Now he's not. So this is my fault, you know?

And it can feel really bad. So how do we do this? Like, what are the conversations look like? I mean, we obviously understand every situation is different. And that's what your book is like very extensive because there's just no one size fits all for this. But I loved the example you gave of the couple coming in and you telling them to even tell you while they were telling each other what successful sex even looks like. Yeah, well, that's a good point. couples come in first of all and they're just sort of focused on the problem, we don't have sex

anymore, or he doesn't bother to kiss me anymore, or, you know, she's not interested in this. And so we're coming in and we're stating things as problems. And the first thing that I want to do, especially now, look, coming out of COVID, like, let's be sex positive. Let's take problems and imagine the solution. So I will always ask a couple, all right, so you talked about the problem. I get it. listen, if we're going to work together and let's say we're going to meet every couple of weeks, every few weeks for a few months and I'm going to give you homework in between. And let's just say in a not very long time, like in a couple of months, things are actually going to get better.

This situation is going to get better. What does better look like? And if I'm a fly on the wall, what am I going to see? That's when couples really start to describe what they want, right? And they're not saying, oh, he doesn't initiate. they're like, I want to be thrown up against the wall. I want to be pushed up against the wall and told, you look great.

I want to fuck you. Yeah. Like, and that's where we- He doesn't kiss me. Kiss her. That's right. So that's when I feel like not only am I now not hearing the problem. I'm hearing the solution,

but I'm also hearing the solution in a sexy way. And that sort of becomes an invitation to have sex in a different way. So I do think that that is a big part of the solution. Okay. And then, like we said, the overwhelming response was this mismatched libido, mismatched sex drive. A lot of women, I want it all the time. He doesn't. I, you know, feel ashamed, which obviously shouldn't be with somebody.

You feel like they're shaming you. But, you know, just overall, like, I want to have more sex and he doesn't or he wants to have more sex and I don't. So help me out here. Tell me a little bit about, like, the women who you're talking to, who are writing in. Like, what do you think? Like, how are that? What's happening? for them. They're in relationships and desire just isn't happening as much. They're not feeling it or their

partners not feel like. What do you sort of? I think probably these love drugs have worn off like you said a little bit. And, you know, he's not just walking the room thinking you're sexy all the time. You want somebody to initiate. You want somebody to make you feel sexy. And we can run through a list of like, here's things I'm lacking. Like I wish he was more emotional foreplay, more for play in general. But just, you know, I want to have sex. I don't feel desired by my partner. If we're going to use numbers, like I would prefer to have sex. times a week and he would have only want to have sex one time a week or even more than that. So are you seeing women that are more high desire than their male partners? We saw both. We certainly saw both. But I mean, I felt like the narrative, like just the very

old-fashioned narrative is like men want sex at the time. So so many women have that ingrained in their brain of like, wait, I thought this, that men are always down to fuck and they're not. And so I feel undesired. But. And you know, I hear from a lot of men too when those love drugs wear off. It can be confusing for them because let's say they still are turned on by a sexual cue, but their partner just isn't in the same way. They start to feel like, they start to feel the same thing. Why am I not desired? Why do I always have to initiate and potentially strike out and get rejected? And what happened? Why isn't she initiating anymore? Right. And I mean, if you, that is, the rejection is like so, so important to think about. Like, if you were to think back and reflect, was there a

when your partner really did pursue you and want to sleep with you and you rejected them, that could carry over for a while. And maybe what you're rejecting is the way, and I would love for you talking about, the way that sex is being initiated. So maybe just showing up in bed is not enough anymore after a year, right? So maybe I need you to create an ambiance. Maybe I want you to, like, rub my back and then run your hand down my ass and start to, like, rub my clit or something.

Like, maybe I want you to like, forplay me a little bit more than more than likely, your desire is going to come online, and it can be really strong, right? So we also have this image in our mind that if someone doesn't feel desire immediately, they don't experience desire, or their desire isn't as strong, right? But if I know how to cultivate with you that desire, my partner's desire could be way stronger than mine or way different than mine. So it's also a stereotype that just like, because you don't feel desire in that first second, like a reflex, that you're not a desiring person. I talk about how, like, in the beginning of a relationship,

desire is like going to the amusement park and you each have a fast pass and you can get right on the ride, right? You're just like, it was a great ride. And shit, we have the fast pass. Why not get right back on it again? Right. In a longer-term relationship,

what starts to happen is that one partner usually doesn't have the fast pass anymore. So one partner can't get on that ride right away, right? and maybe one partner still can get on the ride or can more quickly get on the ride. So what are you going to do? You're going to go on that ride alone? Your partner does not have the fast pass. They can't get on the ride as quickly.

So what are you going to do? You tell us. That's what everybody wants to know. I think it's up to both partners to decide to wait on the line together and to make the line pleasant, arousing, amusing. To use another metaphor, I talk about sort of just creating like, a new arousal runway. I think you have to accept a new mode of desire, which is not a fast-pass mode of desire. It's literally creating an arousal runway. And what do you each need in that arousal

runway to get turned on? Do you need more visual stimulation? Or do you need more emotional connection? Do you need a context where you're not worried? You know, there have been very interesting studies. And this is another way that a male arousal difference from female arousal. I don't remember if we touched upon this in the last episode, but there was a study done in Holland where the researcher wanted to see what happens in the female brain during sexual arousal. And so he recruited all of these women. They were heterosexual to lie with their heads in like a brain scanner, a pet scan while their partners were stimulating their clitoruses. Okay. So what's happening while these women are being stimulated? What was really interesting?

and this does not happen in the male brain that one part of the female brain lit up and got very turned on and that was a part of the brain that's associated with sexual sensation. Another part of the brain, though, turned off. And that was the part of the brain that was associated with stress, anxiety, things that were distracting from being absorbed, scanning your environment, thinking about your environment. Now, that did not happen in the male brain to the same extent. So already that tells me that if I'm looking to sort of cultivate desire with my partner, well, maybe we really have to work on turning off the stressors together. Maybe that's a huge part of turning on is helping to get rid of and turn off those stressors. So maybe it's like as simple as two things. I don't want

my partner to walk in the door every single day and immediately start peppering me with every shitty thing that happened to them at work. Or the opposite, you know, something I love is like when my partner says to me, how is your day? I know it's so simple, but like, it's so important to me that every day the person I'm dating is just like, how's your day going? How did it go? And they just show that they give a shit about what I'm going through. And that just makes all my anxiety kind of flush out, you know, to know that I'm in a safe space with somebody like, gives a shit. I think there's a constant fear of rejection. I think sexual rejection is so over, can be so overwhelming and then even more so many other types of rejection. So I'm picturing maybe, let's

say a woman, for example, she's like, okay, I want to try some new things to change our runway, to turn my partner on, but I'm terrified to like do this and him not respond. So do we start talking about it first? Well, I love that that partner is thinking about this and has some things on her mind. And I think she's exactly in the right territory, which is there has to be some mind-based arousal. This cannot just be a conversation like the way you talk about money. Like we don't have sex enough, we should be having more sex. That conversation, it's not a sexy conversation. It's not going to go somewhere.

But that conversation can be a sexy conversation. And sexual language creates physical arousal in the body, right? There are women who can masturbate their way to orgasms without ever touching themselves. Okay? I work with men who have erectile unpredictability. I don't know if it's organic or psychological. I'll tell them the next time you, you're turning on some hot porn and masturbating, actually don't touch yourself for a little while

and see what happens. And guys will come back and say, yeah, you know, within two to three or four minutes, I had a pretty solid real erection. So that is the power of mind-based arousal. So to that woman who has an idea of what she wants and who's scared, I would say, don't just go to your partner and say, we need to be having different sex or more adventurous sex. I would actually tell that person. You know what? Go to your partner and say, you know, I had a really sexy dream about you. You know, I had a sexy dream about it. I woke up this morning, man, I was turned on. I had a really sexy dream. And I would hope that you're in a relationship where your partner is interested in hearing that dream. I mean, if you're in a relationship where your partner just isn't interested

in your sexual self or your erotic feelings, that's a different kind of relational problem. That's a kind of stuckness. But, you know, if I go to my wife and I've been married for for over 20 years, and if I say to her, you know, I had the sexiest dream about you last night, I think she's going to be curious about it. Yeah, I do want to get back to the people that won't address it. We could do that later. But, you know, what if you're like, the kind of person's like, I've never dirty talked and I'm scared to like bust this out, you know? We have a friend that I gave her a line to you. She said, she said, and like the second time, the third time she said it, he was like, what the fuck did you just say to me? And she was like instantly hard. But,

he was like, what the fuck was that? Like, I think it can be scary to start bust that stuff. And would that person have a hard time saying like, you know, blame it on my subconscious. I don't know what was going on. But I had a really fucking hot dream about you last night. Would that person still

have the same shame and not be, because I can give you other, we could talk about other tools, but that person still might not be able to utter those words. We always say, say that you heard this thing on a podcast, you know, blame something else. Like say that you read this article in Cosmo or like you took this quiz or you were talking to your friend and her and her partner

did something like always you can if you feel uncomfortable I think such an easy place to start is like you're you're right like the oh that's so weird that's my subconscious you know and like I I know a couple now they're married like they were friends and she I think I don't think she lied I think this was true she wanted to get out of the friend zone with this guy and she said I had a dream about you last night they're married now like that's the thing she said to get them to a place where he his mind went like wait what? Those little things that you can get somebody thinking about you being naked, thinking about you being in bed, thinking about you having a dream about them. All this stuff is helpful. And I think it's okay too. If you can't have that face-to-face experience of sharing like a fantasy,

even saying it's a dream, can you find a way to have a side-by-side experience? It's okay to like watch something sexier, watch some ethical porn together. It is okay to read. It is okay to read some literary erotica or to listen to an erotica podcast. You know, some couples will say, oh, if I need to watch something or listen to something to get turned on, then something's wrong. That's crazy. That's not, right. If I can give some, like, advice just for my own life, because, you know, on this podcast, I'm known for like, I love giving blow jobs and talking dirty and, you know, sexting and all that. But, like, I didn't wake up one day and do that, you know? I think I started it little by little by little, and suddenly you're great at it. But it's like any other

muscle. It's like any other skills. It's like cooking. You don't wake up and bake a suflay. You know, every single day that you try, say a couple times about the dream. Say a couple times I heard this in the pockets and it will just get easier to pepper it in here and there. Like, I have had phone sex every day this week. I have a phone sex master. But it's taking me years to build up to that. You know, I'm not just busting out. Like, I want to suck the come out of your dick. Like that is, you know, the top. So don't be mad at yourself if you have to like rely on these tools is what I'm saying. Like people don't wake up and they're good at this all of a sudden. Right. And let's see, if I had to ask you, did you grow up in a

positive home, a sex negative home, and we could discuss that, or a sex avoidant home. What's your response? It's certainly not sex negative for me, but I guess I need a better definition of sex positive because we weren't talking about sex at the dinner tables. Was it sort of then sex avoidant a little bit? Where did you then learn the language? How did you learn to talk about sex? And you talk to your mom a lot more. Oh, I guess, yeah, I guess I talked to probably. guess my mom and I have always had a really, I feel like people are always shocked about the stuff we talk about as in terms of sex. So I would start to say that's sex positive. I would say it's more sex positive. I think it happened later in your teenage years or your early adulthood.

I would definitely say sex positive. My dad like makes inappropriate jokes all the time. So I guess he's, you feel like your parents had a healthy sexual relationship with each other? Yeah. I mean, but it was, it's funny because I never like caught them or anything. I like, I never, like, I never walked in on them having sex, but I think we felt love and, like, sexual energy between them as, like, they would kiss and they would be close. But I think sometimes you hear sex positive, and

you picture this family sitting around talking about sex at the dinner table, which is not. That's too weird to me. Like, I think you grew up in the most sex positive. You felt like supported. You saw two parents that were in love. I see your parents, they like make out, they touch each other. They hold hands. Like, you know what? I always say no kid was ever, there's no study to

show that any kid was ever really traumatized by walking in on their parents having sex, but you know what? I see every day people who are traumatized by growing up in sex negative or sex. We get emails every day. I'm like, I've never been able to talk about sex with even your friends, with your family. And that's why people love this podcast because they are given permission to talk about it because they never talked about a grown up, which is so foreign to us. Right. What about you, Raina? Yeah, super sex positive, I think. You know, very much like Ashley, like we weren't sitting around talking about the below jobs I was given at the dinner table.

But my mom gave, my mom's a therapist. So probably a little more open than your average person. She gave me the book, Your Body, Yourself, when I was like nine, touching yourself as normal kind of stuff. And amazing. So you're doing this today, but you were given that language. You were taught that language. So many people that I work with just were never given the opportunity to develop that language and they're thrown into adulthood having to talk about this topic with literally like they never learn the language, you know? And so that's part of what we're doing. I'm doing in my practice. And I guess the thing that I want to say is like, try and be vulnerable about it. Try and get to a place where you're not

blaming, you're not demanding, you're talking about how you're feeling, and you're talking about how you're feeling in a way that invites somebody in to soothe that, to look at that, to reflect on that. Like, I feel a little lonely or I feel a little neglected. Instead of you're not having sex with me, I mean, like, we can't, that's not a hot take, high statements instead to use statements. But like, I worry that a couple gets, let's just use a woman, for example, is she so frustrated by this lack of sex that it kind of, it comes out as an outburst and like, you're not fucking me or you're not going to get anywhere with that. And you know, as soon as you tell somebody we're not doing something or you don't do this or you don't go down on me or

you don't get a strong enough erection or you don't blow me. As soon as you say that, you start to create pressure, right? And pressure leads to anxiety. And the number one, to me enemy of arousal and enemy of sex is anxiety and that internalized sense of pressure. So what you want to do is create a non-pressured environment as much as possible. And just keep digging for what your partner likes. We've had so many years of tips on this, you know, talk about things that you dreamt about, talk about porn you both like. I did this thing the night.

I asked the person that I'm dating, what kind of porn do you like? And he, like, described this category and then we like acted it out. And like, that was really hot to me. I love that. And, you know, that's a next level. after I just had this dream. But like, what kind of porn do you? Like, what turns you on?

Let's do those things. Absolutely. You had a great example in the book of this couple that was really at this standstill because he wanted to have a threesome and she did it. She had a negative experience, kind of traumatic. But working through it with them, it came to light that he just like fantasized about her having two people on her, basically. So she didn't know that the fantasy was her.

not that he wanted to have somebody else in the room or fuck somebody else. They both had no idea what the other was thinking. And then like you said, once she realized his fantasy was just her. And it could even be, it could be a man. It could be a woman. He could watch her have sex with somebody else. Like it was more about like her. She was able to view it so much differently.

That's right. That's right. He was really sexually came alive in a relationship with her. And he started having a lot of fantasies. And he started having fantasies about having a threesome. And you know, with fantasies, it's, it's hard because sometimes people can interpret that as a request for something somebody really wants to do as opposed to it just being like a sexy thought or idea. And she had had a threesome in college,

which was pretty traumatized. And she had kind of been sort of like a little pushed into it. So she immediately jumped to conclusions. And yes, he, all of his fantasies about a threesome were her being touched by, you know, forehands and two mouths. And she got really kind of turned on by it. And it was important to create that line between having a fantasy and having to actually enact a fantasy. And so they went on to really enjoy that as erotic material. And she was completely surprised that she could get turned on by that material. I just love that example. I love it. In her head, she was like, this just traumatized me. I want nothing to do with it. And then like you said, pressure. Like that takes all of the sexuality out of it was the

pressure for her. And once she realized, she was like, wait a minute. The whole point of this is just that I'm the object of desire. It like reframed their whole relationship. So I want to just touch on before we do the partner that refuses to talk to you about this stuff because I had a very brief encounter with this and like we were talking about before. Not so many dated long term. But I wanted to like try some new stuff. And he said to me like, why do we always have to talk about this. Like, why do you bring this up all the time? And it was just that I just, I like trying different things in the bedroom. And I was like,

just basically saying, like, what do you like? What should we try out? What would be fun this week? We're on vacation. He really, like, kind of shamed me for it because not everybody in the South is like this, but he grew up in a very like Southern, conservative, Christian area. Yeah, pretty sex negative. This is not something women discussed. This is not something you heckle your partner about. I don't

feel like I was heckling. But, you know, that was not a person I was going to move forward with in a relationship because that's a non-negotiable for me is something I want to discuss to my partner. This is very for you, buddy. I'm trying to make it better for you. Yeah. Right. So what do you say to the partner that's just like, and it might just be like, this isn't your partner, which is what it was for me, but like what do you say to somebody that just kind of shames you and makes you feel bad? Well, I mean, people definitely have different

sexual personalities and different aspects of their sexual personality. You know, I try and get them talking again. I try and get them talking in that vulnerable way. And I think I'm curious, when you brought this up to your partner, do you think he heard it in a kind of an extreme way? What I'm sort of saying is people will have different sexual personalities, and they can be kind of divergent, but very often I find that there is a place where they can start to meet in the middle. So it's kind of like a swimming pool.

One partner is ready to dive into the deep end of something. Maybe you were that partner. Maybe you're a sexual person and you're ready to just, you know. Thanks, Ashley. Definitely. Definitely. No, but you're ready to do some like deep diving. Yeah.

And maybe you're with someone who's like, hasn't even really put some, you know, toes into the shallow end. Right. And, you know, there's a million different ways you frame this to a million different people. And, you know, he might have put, like, felt sort of like put on display a little bit. But, I mean, I asked after a sexual experience, I said, like, you know, during a blowjob, do you want me to, like, touch your balls? Do you want me to, like, touch your ass? And I said, you know, I sort of realized, like, you're always sort of touching, like, my ass and my ass hole, which I don't like. I didn't say which I don't like, but I don't like it.

And so I was like, you know, is that something that you like? Are you interested in? Like, let's talk about this. And he just shut me down super hard. Which is so crazy. Like, you're all up in my asshole, bud. So let me ask you about your asshole. And now you're going to make me feel weird about it.

You started this. I actually hates them. I do. That's one way to start having a conversation. So one thing that somebody told me a while ago, Dr. Emily Morrison, I want to give her credit. Oh, yeah. I love Dr. Emily.

She said don't bring this stuff up right after sex because then somebody feels like you're like, hey, by the way, you did this thing, I don't like it. And I was like, okay, I like that advice for me specifically. I think that works. You know, here's the thing. Like, I also work with couples and they're like sitting at the breakfast table. I'm being a little like, you know, should we have sex?

Shall we have sex tonight sitting over our respective newspapers? Hmm, I don't know. You know, like it's like a cognitive question. It's not arousing. It's not really bringing up anything. So I just wonder. like those questions, what you wanted to ask your, your partner some questions about what he likes, right? Like what if during sex were you verbalizing with him, with this particular person,

were you talking about the sex you were having, where you're saying, oh, I love your balls, or I love your ass, or I love when you do, like, you know, because when you're a little aroused or when you're in the process of arousal, that's kind of the best time. It's not after when you're done, and it's not before when that person has probably other things on their mind and that question isn't hitting them in a sexy way. But if you're in that early stage of arousal, when you start weaving that language into the sex itself, then it's sexy and it's heard and it's experienced.

I love that idea. You're in the middle of it. That's what I said earlier. We were talking about this and I was like, when you're in those moments of like the heat of the moment, the most passionate moments earlier. If the love drugs are there early in a relationship, that's the time to do this stuff.

because that's the moment, that's your in. Do the shit you have always wanted to do because now's the time. And then you have it for later. I think of like the toolkit analogy all the time. Like then you have the tools. I agree. I agree. I mean, you know, in the book,

I talk about sort of like sex scripts, but it's also knowing like what works for you, what turns you on, what turns you off. You know, I struggled seriously as a young guy with early ejaculation. And all I try to do is have intercourse. And of course, I kept banging my head against that wall until I was like, well, how do I get around this wall?

And I started to figure out the activities that I need to engage in, that I enjoy. And so that became me starting to not only own my sexual identity and my issues, but understand, like, what's the best way for me to have, like, sex in action, you know? So I think it's really worthwhile to, like, really think about the sex script that best expresses what you're wanting and needing that of sex. You're so right. It's like when you're fucking all the time in the beginning, like that's when you ask that stuff or you say like, you walk me through a blowjob.

I think it's the hottest thing in the world. You tell me how to suck your dick. And like the person like it's so like it's so turned on because they tell you how to move their hands and how much spit to you is, how much pressure. Maybe they will tell you to like touch their taint or touch their asshole or whatever. I was telling Rain about a past relationship of mine of like, you know, we were so in love.

We were so turned on by each other that we didn't really have to try that hard. It was really easy. It was just like easy, normal sex. I'd come every time. So if I could look back knowing what I know now, and this was years ago too, there was a lot more I'm into I want to try. Those would have been the moments to do it, you know, when you're in the heat of the moment. I hear you. It's hard though because it's also like when there's most at stake, when you least know the most unpredictability, you know? So it's kind of like a paradox. The other thing that you said, Rayno, that was interesting is like, um, tell you. me how you want like a blowjob or where can I touch you.

And what I always say is don't just focus on the physical behavior, though. Think of always what's the physical, it's like an equation. Physical behavior plus some kind of erotic or emotional context equals hotter sex. So it's like a blowjob coming from the perspective. Like when I talk to men about like, why do you love blowjob so much? It's not just because, oh, they love friction against the head of their penis and pressure at the base with some lubrication, they can do that themselves. What they love is some kind of psychological or emotional experience.

Feeling dominated, feeling dominant, feeling totally loved and embraced and accepted, right? So also think about like bringing some kind of psychological or emotional angle or context to a sexual behavior. Look them in the eye and then choke on their dicks. Yeah. What else would that be? Like what would an example be? Well, I, you know, people always like, like, I'm getting bored of this position. I'm like, well, is it just a position or is it a position that's trying to tap into something, right? Like, are you trying to have like a primal, like, sort of power play experience of sex? Are you trying to have a experience of lovemaking and connection? Are you just trying to have like crazy sex that feels like a stress relief? I would say start to think about like how you want to experientially skin.

that sex, if that makes sense. Okay. So like, all right, you're not in the beginning of the relationship anymore, though. So, like, I'm sure people are like, I want two years into the relationship, so that's over, you know? Like, do you think you can stills, I mean, of course, I think you can spring this on somebody, because I think if you bust out a dirty line or a sexy pick or a new position, people are like, what the fuck? And it's so new. And I think that's so exciting. And people are scared to do it so far into the relationship because they're like, they're not used to this with me. But like, if you surprise them with that. Well, you know, I did a study. I don't know if you've ever

had her on Dr. Kristen Mark. She's now at the University of Minnesota. She's like a big, you know, sex researcher. And we did two studies. Well, we did one study. It was on relationship boredom. And we found that like, I think it was close to 60% of people

were either extremely bored or somewhat bored in their relationships. And sexual boredom was the top category of boredom. Okay, so it's a lot of people that are bored, right? What was interesting was close to 100% of those surveyed, especially the ones who were bored, said they would be very open to a sexy suggestion from a partner.

So right there, so to answer that question, I think that sexy suggestion that you said, it's new. But sometimes you need like that sledgehammer to crack that ice. It's not just a little chiseling at the ice. It's like, let's crack it. Right. Well, and I think there's two types of relationships here. right there's the relationship that everything's really great you know like you guys communicate well you trust each other you love each other you have fun together and the sex just isn't there and then

there's relationships there's a lot of other shit going on and the analogy used in the book is like the split level house and like the top level is where everything's going on and then what's underneath of it it's like your foundation so if you have a relationship where just shit's fucked up like that's probably where you start you know like rana talks about a relationship where she didn't want to have sex with her partner anymore because she stopped respecting him. He wasn't ambitious. He wasn't motivated. He was a loser. So that's why she don't want to have sex with him. You know what I mean? So it's like, I just picture two totally different type scenarios and that's kind of a conversation for a different time. But like explore what's happening in your relationship, what other reasons you might not want to have sex.

But you're really lucky if everything's pretty great and you just aren't having sex. Like, then you really do get to throw this shit out and have it be well received because you have this love you Unless everything's great, but you didn't pick each other with sexual attraction and sexual chemistry. And you're in a relationship. I see that a lot in my practice. Is that doomed? What does that mean you didn't pick each other?

That means like two people are together. Like maybe they both had hot and tense relationships previously and they feel like, oh, those relationships didn't work. Like I have to give up the sexual passion to be in a real relationship. Or this person was my best friend and why wouldn't I want to be with my best. friends. So some people don't privilege sexual chemistry and sexual attraction enough. So they have a great relationship in a lot of ways. Hey, we travel together. We love our friends. We love each other's families. But we just don't have that chemistry. Okay. So, Ian, we're going to need you here for another

hour because we talk about this all the time. We know a few of these couples and we cannot wrap our head around it. Men that say to us, this is my best friend and multiple men that we know. This is my best friend. we just don't really have a sex life. And we've seen varied feelings about that in terms of like, I ended it because I'm never going to see a sexual future or I'm just, I've accepted having sex once a week or once a month. But like, but not even like hot and sexy. You know, like sex was never really a priority. And so that's a whole other conversation.

Right. Well, that is another conversation. Did that person come into the relationship, a sexual person, or did they decide to exile their sexuality? A lot of people enter into their long-term relationships with. some kind of like what I would call a sexual split, like, oh, maybe to have consistency and compatibility, I have to give up fiery sex. That's kind of what we've here.

Like a lot of people don't feel like they can have both. Which is, you know, somehow they got that split into their heads, you know. I don't, you know, sex therapists also say, or couples therapists say, when your relationship is working and when sex is working in a relationship, it's about 20%. of a total relationship. But when sex isn't working, it becomes 100% of the relationship. Yeah. Like, why won't you touch me?

Why aren't we sleeping together? What's wrong with me? What's wrong with us? So, like, if you, so say, okay, you're a person who walked into a relationship with an average sex drive. You've had sex normally with your previous partners and you're like, we just don't do it. Everything else is great.

Are there, like, doomed? Like Ashley said, like, what do you do? Well, I would say if they began and there was some sexual energy. some sexual chemistry. I'm not saying it even had to lead to great sex because not everyone who has good sexual chemistry can have good sex with each other. I would say then something that was there went missing and why did it go missing? It's probably because the stressors of life really increased and the turn-offs increased and the turn-ons kind of decreased. And I would say that couple has a lot of hope if they're willing to reprioritize a little bit. Now if that couple from the beginning

didn't pick based with any sexual chemistry, and that was never part of the relationship. That's going to be trickier. I'm not going to say it's going to be impossible. And some of those couples, especially today, will opt for consensual non-monogamy or polyamory. There's a lot of reasons why you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater if you have a perfectly good relationship, but the sex part isn't working. I will say, though, I do this work. It's how we started. love sex. I think it's a vital life energy. I think it's the most incredible way of just feeling alive and expressing yourself and connecting with someone. And I think it's a glue and an energy

that gets you through a relationship. Like my wife and I, we've been through some ups and downs. Like, it is not easy to stay in a relationship with someone for five years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. And if I wasn't like really, really still sexually attracted to her and we weren't still having like great sex like I'd be missing that energy I'd be missing that glue I agree and that's how I am as a person I think reina too like sex is important so let's just say that's that's what it is you know I think that you tell me but there's a the spectrum of sexuality I mean there are asexual that's a topic for another time but two part question is it totally natural and normal to just be a person that is not that interested in sex and really never will be and they

live a totally fulfilling happy life, part one. And then part two, can couples work that are totally mismatched when it really, when you've tried all the things and it literally boils down to sex is not as important as it is to me. I don't want to have it as much as you. You tell us. Well, I would say, first of all, there is no normal. Everything is more natural. So if somebody has a low libido or somebody has a particular erotic theme, like I'm completely open. I mean, the great sex researcher Alfred Kinsey said, sex is so hard to study because you need a sample size of everyone in the world. And every, you know, we do want to do an episode about asexuality, but I really truly believe

that different partners exacerbate different parts of you. You know, I've been hypersexual in different relationships. I've been not so sexual in other relationships. So, you know, here's the thing. I give every couple usually a homework assignment at the end of the session to try and get them moving in between sessions. And I almost always call that homework assignment a willingness window because it's a window of time that you're allocating to engage in some kind of activity, hey, watch some ethical porn or

explore manual stimulation or explore kissing or erotic massage, whatever it is, right? It's a window of time and you're coming with willingness, right? You're not coming with desire. If I give a couple homework assignment and they decide, well, the only time they can do it is Saturday morning, I can guarantee that both of them will not be into doing it that Saturday morning. But you know what? They agreed it's important and they had the willingness. And so they're going to put themselves through the motions and we're going to see what happens and we're going to get some data back. I can work with any couple where both partners have some degree of willingness.

They don't even have to have the same amount of willingness. One partner can be more eager than the other. But if there's a partner, and I've seen this a lot, where he or she just doesn't have the willingness, on the sex front to try to move it, it's very, very difficult. And I would say that that relationship, at least from a sexual standpoint, is probably close to doomed.

I like that you suggested consensual non-monogamy and open relationships. 100%. We've heard before also that that's not like, someone told us once to not start an open relationship when you're having problems. That's a bad time to start it. But it sounds like, you know, for you guys both come to a place

where you sort of both agree that you're not going to be able to get this, but I like the, you know, you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. That you could at least try that. I like that. You know, you're not just like, it's over. 100%. I mean, because sometimes couples will have perfectly great, good relationships

and a lot of reasons to stay invested in the relationship, but the sex really isn't working. And I think we're in an interesting cultural moment where, you know, things trend. Like right now I see a lot more erectile unpredictability in men. You know, the other thing that I see a lot of, of his couples who started in monogamously oriented relationships and really bought into that narrative, that discourse of sort of happily ever after. And they're trying to take a different path.

They're trying to incorporate non-monogamy. I see that much more than two people who started non-monogamously and are trying to continue. So it's a challenge, right? It's like it's like getting out of a box. We got to get ourselves out of that box of thinking. So I'm very potential. encouraging of non-monogamy and we'll often bring it up as a you know the way I work as a sex therapist I'm always like sort of like are you interested in door number one it's like a game show host or door number two or door number three so I'll introduce the different doors and we'll start to talk about the doors and door number two might be a non-monogamy you're a lot to say to somebody like you know the things that matter me in a relationship are the whatever your list is and sex is on it and if you

can get everything besides that like it is valid and you should still be able to get what you I don't know that I want to be in a non-monogous relationship, listen, it might kill my. But, you know, if that's the thing that's really important to you, like you're allowed to say that to your partner and the other partner's allowed to say to you, like, I can't handle that and I don't want it. Absolutely.

You know? Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, and I'm just, I'm thinking about, like, the meeting in the middle, like meeting somewhere in the pool. And, I mean, I guess that's the ultimate goal, you know, if someone just wants to have sex all the time and the other person doesn't, but they're both willing to work on it.

I guess you do everything you can and see if it's satisfactory and if not. I mean, again, Rayne and I always say not every, not every relationship is meant to be. It doesn't even, you could be together and you could break up and that could have been a really great time in your life that you'd look back on fondly and it didn't, it wasn't the forever relationship. Yeah. And what have you actually tried? Are you just jumping to we need to be non-monogamous because we're not having that

spontaneous sex anymore? So I often with monogamously oriented couples, I'll work first sort of. from the inside out. Like, what's the world that we can create just the two of you, let's say, within your bedroom? And if we can't just work out within that system of two,

sometimes like, well, is there an opportunity to go out into the world and have some kind of shared sexual adventure? Like maybe you two can experience something together that's really bonding, you know? And I think that that's an interesting

path that's really worth considering to have those experiences together. And I work with a lot of couples on that. And then door number three might be like considering, you know, like changing the relationship structure to encompass some kind of consensual non-monogamy. And then this line in the book I loved, you said approach sex as a practice, not a performance, which seemed, you said kind of get into a trance like state essentially. But I think the best sex is when you're completely vulnerable. You're not worried about how your body looks or how you look or what

you're doing. It's just kind of like being completely in the moment. As much as we do, want newness and novelty and adventure or a sense of aliveness or uniqueness. There's also something about sex that you need to just be able to not think about it. You need to be able to just relax into a kind of like flow state. I want to talk about one thing just like briefly while we're talking about being in the zone and stuff because I'm we talked about us in the show before and I'm just curious what your feedback would be about people that just really can't have orgasms and they can't get in that zone. And this woman wrote us an email this week and she said, you know, I've stopped, you guys convinced me to stop faking orgasms with my partner.

I don't even want him to think I'm having orgasms or enjoying myself when I'm not. And I want to encourage him to help me to have a better time. So do you have women say to you? I just, I have never been in that zone. And I don't know how to do that. Because Ashley and I are two people that can vaginally orgasms during sex. I haven't always been like that. And as I've gotten older, it's gotten easier for me to ask for what I want and then it's

gotten easier to have vaginal orgasms. 100%. Like I am just like, is it the vagina? Or is it what I'm, what you're saying? in my ear and like what I'm doing in my own, my own like mental gymnastics. You know, it's, I think it's a combo. I think I have figured out in the last few years, like, what I need, the cocktail and like what I would like somebody to say. The mood lighting. Yeah, the playlist, what the Alexa is doing. But where when you're, you don't have all those tools, maybe when you're

younger, even from my own personal experience, you are just like, okay, okay, I got to get in this right position for my clit, for example. And it's become so much easier when you have the rest of the tools. with you and then you're like, this orgasm can like totally be on me if I play this right. Yes. But I have a friend, for example, that told me that she has never had an orgasm with her ever. And I said to her, you know, I probably like took a cue from what you said or Dr. Lamb, but I said, you know, well, let's talk about, are you comfortable with your body? Do you feel comfortable being naked? Do you like, do you like what's happening? Are you having the kind of sex that you want to have? Have you ever had an orgasm by yourself, like, through masturbating?

So, like, I think that the most common thing women say to us is like, am I broken? So, like, what would you say to that person that says, I'm not having it. You did a great job. You're like, you're like a sex therapist. What were the answers to those questions? I mean, I guess the first thing is, is that partner, is that person, does that person have orgasms on their own? I know that that's, I mean, these are two different. Are they two different things? Because I mean, but that would be my first question. It is the, can you have an or not on your own? Yeah, 100%. So, let's just use that example for today. We only have a limited amount of time with you and I still really want to talk about like four play and stuff like that. So let's just say yes. You have had one on

own. Like, yeah, you can masturbate. If you guys are curious about an episode of you've never had an orgasm, you wonder if your body is physically broken. I would go back and listen to Remi's episode called How to Come and then just Remi's podcast in general. The whole thing is about how to come. So let's say that, yes, you have had orgasms on your own.

You're capable of climaxing, but you cannot with a partner. Okay. Here's something interesting. I often say that I feel like kind of like a Sherlock Holmes of the bedroom and I'm helping couples sort of like, or helping people like solve the of their distress because people come in and they know what they're experiencing or what they're not experiencing, but they don't know why. And I don't know why either. And sex, the reason I do this work and it's interesting after 20 years is because it's so beautifully complex. So with that person,

let's talk for a second, is it a matter of not getting enough direct clitoral stimulation and not having a sex script that's organized enough around outer course and clitoracy as opposed to just intercourse, right? That could be something. Does that person, is that person bringing a whole level of performance and anxiety and thinking about what are they doing and like, you know, what do they look like? Is that person potentially on a medication that has a side effect that's making it harder to have an orgasm on their own as opposed to with themselves, where they might be able to apply more stimulation? Is there something in their sex life that's lacking erotic stimulation? Do they fantasize a lot during things? So there's really a lot of questions, but if that

person really has orgasmic capacity on their own, then it's a very interesting mystery that's going to be solvable. What I hear quite a bit from people is, you know, I, I, I, I can use a toy to get off in bed with my partner, but I can't just vaginally stimulating, period. So it sounds like maybe you need to be in different positions. You can masturbate in front of your partner while you're having sex. Well, I think it's just such a comfort level of the partner. I mean, I can think of a friend that I have that has a similar issue. And if I were to analyze their relationship, I see a relationship in which she doesn't feel

totally accepted by him. She doesn't feel hot and sexy. She feels judged a lot. It's not a healthy relationship to begin with. So if you feel like that day-to-day close on, you're not going to open up in the bedroom. So it's obvious to me, but it's like there's a fine line between, you know, insulting someone's relationship. I work with men who easily, they get erections, they have ejaculations, they enjoy porn, but then they're having partnered sex. And they can't gain or maintain an erection.

You know, what's the issue there? Is it a lot of guys will just end up, you know, blaming the porn. I must be a porn addict because I can have all these erections and ejaculations when I'm watching porn. They're not porn addicts. It's that porn is easy. And right? So if someone's masturbating on their own and they know how to give themselves an orgasm and they're in the privacy of their own place and they can fantasize to what they want, then, well, it's kind of easy. And you know what? Having sex with a person can be harder. It can be a great, it's a great challenge, but it's complex. It's two people combining their personality. and their experiences together. And how do you feel about your body? You know, like I had an ex that was like, had gained a little weight and he was really insecure.

I didn't care. I still thought he was hot. I still wanted to fuck him all the time, but he didn't. You know, it was like his, you know, are you, if you're a woman, you have to really just like, I think on your own, you know, lay in bed and like really touch yourself and masturbate and feel super comfortable in your skin and like love your body. I just, I don't really see a world in which you were very insecure. cure about your body and you're able to really have a full-blown orgasm, of course it can happen.

But I think that's so, so much of it is the just, I hear women that don't like men to go down on them. And I'm like, you poor soul. Like, I will let anybody off the street go down to me. I don't care. I always have been like that ever since high school. Like, I, it's ultimately insecurity and for a lot of people. Oh, yeah. And you got to remember that like B. Dixon's had this test this summer. Like, they're with you. They're turned on by you. No one's like, just, judging your body as hard as you are judging your body. And if they are, get the fuck out. You know what I mean? Absolutely. And look, I, so I recently got a mirrored headboard and I've been fucking in front of it. And I see stuff when I'm having sex on my body that I don't love. No one else

is thinking about that, all the other people in my bed. Besides me, I see cellulite. I see a stomach roll. No one else is thinking about that. People are thinking about how good it feels to be inside of you. And it's, I mean, I have really heightened this because now I'm just like staring at myself having sex, but I love. But, you know, no one thinks about your body as much as you do. People are turned on, but you let it go a little bit. Your body is fucking hot. That's why this person was trying to penetrate you. Absolutely. I think that's beautiful. That's beautiful. Okay. Let's talk about the other main theme that we received. I want to know more about this too. I think this is something that so many people struggle with. This is not that you're in a long-term

relationship that the sex is gone stale. This can be at the very, very beginning. I think that's foreplay and that is emotional foreplay, you know, stuff that can happen during the day, one that leads up to sex potentially later that evening, and just physical foreplay in general. I think this is the issue. I think women need so much more. We had just a very variation of answers of like my partner just feels like I'm a light switch. I'm supposed to hop in a bed and be immediately turned on, you know, like how can you ask for that? How can you get a guy to want to do it. You know, I think that's such a thing you struggle with. Like, if I'm with a guy and I'm like, I really wish he would just like rub his hands all over my body for 10 more minutes. Like,

how do you say that? It sounds so embarrassing. You know what I mean? Because you're like, but he probably doesn't want to and he'd rather just have sex. Like I think we all struggle with that of like, can we just have more longer foreplay? Can you learn what the fuck to do? I agree. I agree, you know, like a big part of the book, if I'm sitting with, you know, if I'm sitting with the heterosexual couples in my practice, and a hundred percent of them either had intercourse or tried to have intercourse in their last sexual event. And you know what?

Most of the couples I'm sitting with get to the intercourse part within about one to six minutes, right? So there's very little. So I agree that like something has to be, has to change about how we're framing sex and why this one behavior of intercourse is getting so privileged above everything else, right? And why we're not taking a more outer course-based model around sexuality that begins above the head with turning our minds on, begins above the waist in terms of sensual and erotic touch,

and then moves below the waist, you know? So I think especially for heterosexuals, the whole model needs to be considered. You know, there was an interesting study that asked gay men, 25,000 gay men about the last time they had sex. And 65% did not have intercourse the last time they had sex. It was just oral sex? Well, it was about 12 outer course behaviors. So it was oral sex, it was manual stimulation, was kissing, it was hugging, it was hugging, it was humming, it was humping, humping. Humping, right? But you know it was amazing? Gay men in the study took those 12 behaviors

and there were 1,300 different combinations of those behaviors. So that's 1,300 different sex scripts that were outer course based. Absolutely. And I think there's so many tips that like I would give people for stuff that I've enjoyed. Like just sort of rubbing some gives me a massage. Like I'm never not turned on by a little bit of a massage. Then you can start kissing a little bit dancing. I think it's so nice to just like turn on your Alexa or turn on some kind of like radio, whatever, turn on Spotify and dance together. Like slow dancing, you're home together. You're touching each other. You're holding each other. Well, just make out. You know, like, I think that's like so hot. Like I think we've all been trained to think that like penetration orgasm and that's

so far from what is the norm every time couples have sex. So it's, I think it's so cool to be like, we had this like hot, hot, see-me make-out session. You know, or like, we dry humped. Like, let's get, take it old school. Old school, I fucking love dry humping. Yeah. I'll come just from dry humping. Try me.

And then, of course, like, the, this is in the book, too, of just, like, putting too much emphasis on the orgasm. You know what I mean? Like, can you still consider it to be a great successful sexual experience of both people didn't orgasm? My answer is yes. A hundred percent, yeah. You know, but what I was thinking about is you were talking to,

too is, tell me what you think about this, because a lot of men show up in my practice in relationships, and they want to take the pressure off their penises. They want to engage in more foreplay. They want to give more oral sex. They want to get pleasure by giving pleasure. And sometimes I find that their female partners are really focused around, we have to get to intercourse or we have to get there quickly. So what I think about that, I mean, what I hear is somebody maybe that's not so comfortable with their body and doesn't want somebody looking their breasts going down on them. We hear a lot of them say, I'm really just not comfortable with the way that my naked body parts look, the way that they smell, the way that maybe they get

aroused in certain ways. So I hear somebody that's just really uncomfortable with that, that wants to just go straight to it, or somebody that just hasn't tried a lot of forplay in general. They don't even know what that looks like. But that person is putting a lot of pressure on, that guy now feels a lot of pressure to perform and to show up as a walk-in erection. And sometimes he'll be with a partner who will say in the room, like, yeah, guys show up with erections or guys should have an erection instantly. Why doesn't he have that erection for me? This girl who doesn't want foreplay, I've never met her. So I can't really, like, which, you know, no shame, but it's like, I can't imagine what a man would do. You know what I mean?

If he is really trying to make the situation sexy, get this woman all turned on, he's into the foreplay and she's not. Well, I don't like oral sex that much. Like, I don't like having it performed on me. It's not because I'm insecure about my body. I'm just like, can we do something else I enjoy more? But I love some handsy stuff. Like, I love being figured.

I love somebody rubbing my clip. Dirty talking to me. Like, that's not my idea for it. I don't like somebody, like going down on me if you need to. Fine, go do it. But do something. I mean, oral sex came up a lot too with our listeners. And a lot of it was he won't go down on me.

And for me too, I mean, I'm out here, like, eat my pussy and leave. that's always been my mantra. But like if someone's down there and they're not really doing a great job, but it is somebody that I am super attracted to and I want to have sex, I'm kind of like, okay, fine, like, can you stop? I really don't want someone to be going down to me for 30 minutes. I think that's, you know. Five minutes or less?

If I'm not coming in five minutes from that. Certain activities like that are, you know, genitally focused and highly genitaly focused need to be sequenced differently, right? Like, you can't just think of like conalinguists or philations. as like the first thing that you do, right? Like it has to be probably where in a sex, where would you ideally want oral sex positioned in a sex script at the very beginning, in the middle, towards the end?

What would you want in the middle? You want it in the middle? Yeah, I mean, I love to make out. Like, I can't date a bad kisser. I mean, again, I could work with somebody, but if we just could never get to a point where I want to kiss them, it's never to work. So the middle would be like 10 minutes in, 5 minutes in, 15 minutes in?

Ideally, I want us to like make out for a while. I want someone to like touch my body all over. I'd love to be kissed on the neck. Like I just kind of want to be like touched, kissed all over. Then probably some oral sex not to climax and then regular sex. So on the path towards let's just say orgasm, because you said you asked about people that aren't interested in orgasms. And I think orgasm doesn't always have to be the destination or the goal.

But let's just say you're having a sexual experience. and you're on the path towards orgasm. Ideally, receiving oral sex comes about halfway there or a third of the way there or two thirds of the way. Towards closer to the end, if there's been a lot of heavier foreplay. I think that's radical. I think that's radical in that, like, a lot of couples that I see and work with feel like that's the first thing you do.

I see you just put your face in someone's supposed to see right out of the gate. But maybe people don't realize that part of the sex script is the talking, the kissing, the running the hands all over. like maybe people don't just like count that in, right? They don't do it. They just don't do it. Right. Like I'm like Ashley.

I, I, I, someone just, I mean, we've got to do some stuff before you just like start like my clip. Well, how quick before you'd look a guy's dick? Months. That's more play. That is more play. Six months. You just see how long into the relationship.

That's edging. That is edging. I was making a joke. That guy's getting edged. Okay. I will answer that. I just need to back up really quickly. My point with the orgasm thing wasn't that orgasms aren't important.

My point was because I think they are and I would love to have one every time. My point was more like people think it doesn't count or something or that it was bad if they don't have an orgasm. I just wanted to clarify with you. I think they're super important and I would love to have one every time I have an encounter with somebody. I just think that people are like, I didn't come. So that wasn't good sex. and that doesn't have to be the case. We don't want orgasms.

I was just dealing with a couple yesterday where he's not having orgasms and he feels tremendous pressure to. And I see women all the time who feel like, you know, that was actually, even though I orgasmed, it wasn't even necessarily a good orgasm because I felt pressure to have it

or I knew that like so much was invested. So we definitely want to like just make orgasm just a fun part of the whole experience and not overweight it. I have trouble if I've been drinking, having an orgasm? And so I think what Rayne and I would say this, like some of the craziest sex you'll have

when you've been drinking, you're really loose inhibitions, you're not having great orgasms, but you look back on it. It's like, we're all over the place. The legs in the air, we're up against the wall, you know.

I will like put a dick in my mouth. I just wanted to clarify. I've always said, I actually wants to clarify. I'm just wondering how quickly because you were saying that in terms of a guy going down on you that it should be closer to the end than the beginning.

And I'm just wondering if you feel like the same thing. applies to... So I have, a lot of guys have gone down to me that I've never like sucked their dick. I don't really think there's anything wrong with that. Maybe that's just, no, no, no. I'm just wondering if there's a little bit of like, like, we're sort of establishing that like, that kind of direct genital stimulation of oral sex is something for women that would happen better towards the middle or the end and shouldn't be the first thing that you do. And I would just say, does that also apply to a woman going down on a guy? It depends on time of day for me. I know it sounds

funny, but like if I wake up next to my partner and they have a hard on, I am much more likely to... Yeah. They are... I'm really turned on by giving pleasure. So if I wake up next to my partner, they have a hard on. What do I call it? Their dick is hard?

Or a boner, a rector. They have a boner. If they've an erection, no, hard on, I stay by it. If they're hard. I am more likely to, like, rub their back for a second or maybe, like, rub their hard on a little bit. But like I will immediately go down there. But it depends on, yeah, time of day.

I think that like men, I don't expect you to like get a hard dick immediately and I'm shoving it in my face. Like I like a little more hands on grabbing. I love dry humping. Like I love it. I love reaching my hand into somebody's pants while their belt is still like just unbuckled a little bit. Like, yeah, I'm not reaching in immediately to just ram it down my throat. In most sexual scenarios, I feel like I've had a guy goes down on me right before we have sex. like penetration sex.

So I'm just not one to put a dick in my mouth really early on. But like if we're dating, I really like the person always, like, you know. I just meant that I sometimes like, like just because a guy, like if you're, if you're just starting from a non-aroused place and you're starting a full around and a guy has an erection, that doesn't mean he's necessarily really that aroused. He has some arousal. It's resulting in an erection. It doesn't mean he's fully aroused.

It doesn't mean as soon as there's some glimmer of an erection that the next thing you do is put it in your mouth. Just the way you wouldn't want a guy putting a mouth on your vulva within the first 60 seconds. We're with you. Who's out here? The first thing is eating pussy. I'm trying to edge you. I'm trying to edge you to the point that I suck your dick for like one second and we fuck for like two minutes. And then it's over.

No, I'm just kidding. But yeah, I mean, I depends on how long I want to have sex. If I don't want to have sex for a long time, yeah, I'd suck your dick until I'm ready to have sex for two minutes. I don't know what I'm getting it. Well, I guess what we're trying to say is that foreplay should be this extended experience. Yes. Right? Like, foreplay, more play, core play.

We don't want it to just be this like 30 seconds prior to intercourse. Yeah. But for a lot of couples, they will, especially heterosexual couples, they'll go very quickly to intercourse. And that means they'll also go very quickly to oral sex. And that means they're skipping a lot, right? They're skipping a lot of ways. that they can connect. And one or both partners are usually getting left behind, right? So I often hear about men who will lose their erections or women who won't have orgasms. We really need to build up

that arousal, especially at the start. Yeah. And I just think there's a way to be sexy about it in the moment. You can be having started to make out, both partners are turned on and you can whisper, like, let's just, let's wait a little bit, let's keep doing this. Let's like, guys like to be touched and to be kissed and have their neck kiss and their ear nibbled on and that stuff too like they have senses they want that too so I think if you're the woman like maybe you can lead by example a little bit too of like okay so you want this foreplay you'd let and have it be reciprocal you know so I think that a lot of times it just depends on where you learned about sex. Did you just grow up on porn? Did you, did you, have you, there's so much,

I see sex scenes where you just go straight to penetration. You know what I'm feeling like the theme of today is a little bit that your partner, the person you're with sexually is not a mirror image of you. So they're not going to experience desire the way you experience desire. They're not going to experience arousal the way you experience arousal. They're not going to enjoy the same things. And in the beginning of a relationship, when you don't know each other and you're just sort of throwing yourselves at each other, maybe it feels like you're more alike. than different, but differences are going to emerge. And you have to have, like,

grit and resilience and sex positivity. Absolutely. All right. Well, this has been so much information. I feel like I'm very sexually charged. So I want to go. I want to sex with somebody. I want to figure, Ashley. This is really so wonderful. We're so excited to have you back. And you have such a wealth of work that people can access. But the newest book, tell people where they can find you, your work, your practice. Great. So the newest book is, so tell me about the last time you had sex.

I really put my heart and soul into it. So I'm interested in getting it out there. I'm in practice in New York City. The best way to find me is through my website. Ian Kerner.com. I depend on kind folks like you for social media because I'm so social media illiterate. We'll take care of you.

But yeah, find me on my website, email me. You know, I often get emails still from people going back to that first episode saying like I heard that episode and they'll email me questions. Off that first episode, I've probably gotten about 100 emails for people with sex questions. We love that episode and we found you. I think I had Googled Esther Perel and she had a quote about you being such an expert in your field and that's how we reached out to you. So yeah, I mean, and guys, this book, it's extensive. If you read it or if your partner reads it, if you both were to read it, you're just all your problems we solved. Well, it's a great book if you have a problem because it's really based on how I do

sex therapy and as much as possible trying to let people do that process on their own without having to be in my office. Right, exactly. And that's what we want to offer people. Like, not everybody can make an appointment to meet with somebody of your caliber tomorrow. So here's where to start. All right. Well, thank you so much. It's great to see you both again. It's great to have you. Bye. Bye. Fantastic studio. Thanks. And of course, you guys know where to find us. Girls Gotta Eat Podcast.com. Girls Got to Eat Podcast on Instagram. I am Ash Hess on Instagram.

Raina is reina. at greenberg. Girls underscore got to eat on Twitter and YouTube.com slash girls got to eat. And we'll see you next week. That's it. Thanks, guys. Bye.