Girls Gotta Eat - Setting Boundaries for Healthier Relationships feat. Therapist and Author Nedra Tawwab

Episode Date: April 26, 2021

Welcome to your crash course in boundaries! We are honored to be joined by the expert herself, Nedra Tawwab -- therapist and author of the New York Times Bestseller Set Boundaries, Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself. We're discussing how to establish and communicate boundaries when it comes to family, friends, romantic partners, work, yourself, and even social media so you can live a happier, more free life with healthier relationships. And we're tackling actions to take when those boundaries aren't respected. We're also chatting about running into exes when you're with a current partner, dog fostering, and Newlyweds (yes, the 2003 show). Enjoy! Follow Nedra on Instagram @NedraTawwab and visit her website for her book and more. Follow us @GirlsGottaEatPodcast, Ashley @AshHess, and Rayna @RaynaGreenberg. Check our website for show dates, merchandise, and more. Thank you to our partners this week: Storyworth: Get $10 off your first purchase at storyworth.com/gge. The Pill Club: Become a patient at thepillclub.com/gge and they'll donate $10 to bedsider.org. Calm: For a limited time, get 40% off a Calm premium subscription at calm.com/gge. Rory: Try out nightly defense for just $5 by visiting hellorory.com/gge. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

One of the things I think that we do is we allow the conversation to continue in the same way that it always does. We start, how are you doing? You know how they're doing. You know how they're doing. And they're about to tell you and you don't really want to hear it. Another episode of Girls Got to Eat. Welcome back. Welcome.

We are coming from Ashley's workout studio. Also our Girls Got Eat studio that I sometimes work in. Listen, guys, you're going to see video soon of the studio in full and we are sitting in front of a wall of titties. I can't stop staring at them because I'm like, which of these titties is my titty wallpaper. We found an amazing wallpaper girl to put it up. We are feeling like home. Titty wall.

I sometimes like just zone out and like which nipples are mine. So you guys will see it. This is teaser. Titty wallpaper from Walmart. What is going on at Walmart? Go off Walmart. For so long. How do we find it at Walmart?

I'll tell you what, though. You know what you can't Google is naked women wallpaper. Don't do it. No. You see some disgusting. You don't just try it. What if we even Google? Boobies.

I think that I, naked women wallpaper. Just staring at them. Yeah, let's find ours after we record. Um, okay. So big week. We are prepping. We have a happy hour you may. We got a happy hour on Instagram on Thursday evening.

Yes. At 7 p.m. Eastern time. Yeah, with bright sellers. And then we're heading to Florida. Yeah. Miami, Orlando. and Tampa. Yes. And guys, if you're coming to the shows, well, if you're coming to the shows,

we can't wait to see you. There may still be tickets left. Checkgirls got ePycast.com. Again, we never really know what's going on with Florida down there, but we'll be there. The shows are going to be incredible. Two shows every night, Miami, May 2nd, Tampa, May 5th, Orlando, May 6th. And if you were coming to the shows and you have any crazy, hilarious, ridiculous stories about sex, of course, dating, relationships, whatever, you can email them to us. And we might highlight. them at the show. So just email hello at girls'gottyupacast.com. Subject line, Florida shows or the city that you're coming to,

and then just make sure to tell us which show time, the earlier or the late show. Yeah. In which city, of course. We'll see you there. I'll tan up. Yeah. I gotta get outfits still.

I'm working. I'm working on my outfits. My bathing suits, my outfits. You got outfits. You're making a face. I have a few outfits. I have all the bathing suits. I finally got my step up my bathing suit game.

It was one of my flaws. You weren't with the Times. I wasn't with the times. And I have really stepped it up. I have more than I know what to do with. Like, I don't even know if I have enough days to wear them. Like occasions to wear them. Wear it to the shows.

Maybe. Just walk out a bathing suit. Maybe. You guys are lucky. I hope that guy still works at the Miami Improv. The manager. And I, oh, he had a girlfriend. Maybe they broke up.

No, the manager was married. But there was a cute, cute. There was a cute, cute, cute, sexy. Security guard or bouncer? or barback. The whole staff. Hold me back from a bouncer. It's a staff of tens.

Oh, they're all hot. Every person that walked into that dress room, we were like, what is it happening? Yeah. Okay, I'm so excited to tell you this story. You asked me last week, if anything crazy or funny had happened while this guy was staying,

this guy that I'm seeing was staying with me in town. And I was like, no, nothing like rings a bell. And I walked out of this building and I was like, how could I have forgotten to tell Ashley? Our audience is going to love this story. You're going to love this story. Okay. So obviously we stayed in my apartment.

we were like in and out of the building like a million times. And he does know that I like slap with somebody in my building. Oh my God. Okay. Here we go. So, strap in you guys. We walk in the building and then we like round the corner to get into the elevators and I see him. No.

And I'm like, oh my God, this outfit. Oh my God. I can't always see. His outfit. His outfit. The guy in the building. I'm going to describe it to everybody because it was so embarrassing. And in my, okay, I'll just tell you, he was wearing snake skin boots.

jeans, a neon green silk, zipped up jacket with a dragon on the back of it, and a giant bowler hat with a feather sticking up from it. Literally not surprised at all, Raina, because he came down to New Year's in a robe. Camono. A kimono robe. No shoes. With no shoes. At least he had shoes on.

They were snake skin boots. Right. He doesn't even, the fact that he was wearing shoes for once is the most surprising part of this story. his new girlfriend probably made him wear shoes because he left the building. And I, in my mind, she's like, it's a pandemic, babe, you gotta wear shoes.

He's like, it's COVID. You're just not, I don't believe in COVID. We round the corner, I see him in his dumb, ridiculous Peter Pan hat. And I'm like, how do I play this off? Like, we have not slept together. Also, if the guy you're dating has listened to this show, like he could probably

figure out that that was him based on the details that you provided about him, over the years. He's like a decent looking guy and he's in the building. I mean, how many people am I fucking in my building? But I was like, how do I play this off so that I don't have to like have this conversation? I don't want him to know that I fucked the guy with the hat, the hat feather. And he was like, the weather seems nice today. And I was like, not really. And he was like, what's like kind of sunny out? I was like, it's not really that sunny out. And he was like, what are you guys up to today? I was like, just taking a walk. And like, I introduced

them. And I was like, what are you up to today? He was like, we're going to go to a barbecue. and I was like, okay, I'm going to just go check the mail. And like, I just leave. I'm like, I can't get into the elevator with him. I can't, like, go upstairs with him and, like, further this interaction. And they keep talking in the hallway. And finally, the guy that I'm seeing, like,

I hear him like come around the corner to the mail room. And he was like, um, Rana, I have a question. And I was like, nope, nope, nope. And he's like, you fuck that guy. Oh, my God. You know, you always know. Oh, you always know. Like, the energy is like palpable.

He was like, you guys talked about the weather too long and too hostile of a way for that not to be the guy that you fucked. It was so awkward and uncomfortable just like staying in there. I'm like, I don't know if I go. It was probably the weirdest way that somebody that I'm dating

has ever met another person that I fucked except for this one time that my new boyfriend and I were at a restaurant having dinner. We were pretty drunk and I was a brand new restaurant. I looked up and my ex-boyfriend I used to live with was walking around because he owned the restaurant. Oh, my God.

So those were about the two. ways that my new and my ex met each other. That, yeah, you know, and I think women have such a strong intuition, like, we're going to know 100% of the time. If you have fucked that girl, if you dated that girl, we can usually tell exactly what happened between you by your interaction. But I think men even pick up on it. Like, I think I might have told this story on the podcast. I can't really remember, but I was at dinner with one of my exes in Atlanta. And we were eating at this place. I don't know if it's still there. It was like a sushi place in Crog Street Market and the tables were really close together.

Like it was like they were trying to be edgy. It's like there's so much fucking square footage in here. Why are we next? Like why are we one foot away from this table? This is not Manhattan. But the tables were so tight. So I was kind of hoping no one would even sit next to us because we were going to be dining with them anyway.

And we sat, obviously, we're like ordering drinks, ordering apps and they sit this couple next to us. And I saw his face. He was like, oh God. And she was like, oh, hey. Brennan. Oh, she was his ex. He dated her.

Oh, my God. So she was there with her new guy, or maybe she was on a date. I don't know if it was her boyfriend, if it was the guy she was dating. And she had dated my ex, and I could, like, feel it. It was, like, radiating off of them. And I was like, I'm just, I have to use the restroom. And I went to the bathroom and I stayed there for five minutes. And I came out and they were gone.

They left. They left. Oh, my God. Yeah. And I was like, did you? I was like laughing. I was, I'm not. He has no control.

over who shows up to the restaurant. And I was like, do you date to that girl, right? And he was like, I did. And I was like, I knew it. And then I would leave too. And then another time we were at another dinner in Atlanta, Atlanta just feels like such a small town. And his ex-ex, like, X before me, years long X was in the restaurant with her boyfriend sitting not so far. And I was like, you do you guys talk or what are we doing here? I would leave. I would get up and leave. It's like, it's too uncomfortable. I don't want to pay for a meal. I don't want to like sit around this person and try to enjoy myself. I can feel them in the room the whole time. I couldn't even take an elevator up 12 flights with this guy. He's not my ex-boyfriend. Remember when I was on that hinge date and then

my another hinge date came to the same bar? What are the odds in New York City? I've had like so many encounters like this. Like even when another ex of mine, we were at like Sweetwater Brewery in Atlanta and like we were waiting in line for our beers and my born-again virgin neighbor who used to come on my back showed up. Just hey, like right behind us. And I'd be like, hey, guy, this is my boyfriend. Like, I have had a lot of those. You can tell when two people have fucked. It's so embarrassing.

I got made fun of so bad. If that outfit was just like a, why can he just wear a T-shirt? Why can you just wear like a normal fucking outfit? He never has. The day I met him, he was wearing heart sunglasses, and I fucked him. And you were like, that's my man. That's my man. Oh, my gosh, just so embarrassing.

Had it come up that there was like a guy that you fucked in your building prior? Yeah, he knew. He knew. And I don't, I didn't really, like, fully explain it. And then I was like, listen, it was COVID. It was a pandemic. I figured I'd like repurpose him into a boyfriend. He's like, it wasn't, it wasn't a pandemic when you guys fucked in March of 2019. Don't get me out here, Raina. You guys started fucking during March madness, 2019, because you were supposed to, because you're supposed to come to Rob's, and you just never did. I blacked out by 4 p.m.

and then I fucked him on a mattress on the floor in my apartment. Literally, never forget. That's right. I did fuck him for a year before the pandemic. Yeah. You should have heard me trying to rationalize this. I was like, listen, it was a pandemic. I had no access to anybody else.

And listen, he's like a decent looking guy who lives in the building. I figured, like, you know, I'll repurpose him into a boyfriend. He was like, what did you guys talk about? You guys hate each other. I can tell. I was like, I don't really know. It's so weird. It's so crazy the amount of hours and penetration you've logged with that guy.

And there's no connection. Does it count as penetration if he was like never fully hard and almost never finished? It counts as just penetration. It's not so embarrassing. Oh, my God. So, so that happened. I was excited to tell you and just give the listeners an update on him because we haven't talked about him since Joe Biden Day.

Oh, yeah. When you ran into him and his girlfriend. or you had ambushed by him and his girlfriend. Yeah. You guys should double date. I would die. We love a double date. I would die.

I don't really have much to say. I guess I'll give an update on an aspect of my life that people might be interested in, which is my life as a dog mom or a foster dog mom. So I am allegedly, if you're hearing this, then it's happening because if it doesn't happen, I'm going to cut this. I don't want to get messages about it. So if you're hearing this, I do have a foster dog in my care right now. I decided that I was ready to start fostering.

And I'm approved with two organizations in the city. One is called Hearts and Bones. But this dog that I have now is through another organization called Animal Lighthouse Rescue, which is Dr. Lisa Lippman is their vet on their board. And she helps with like the fostering. And she's their go-to vet. And so she hooked me up with them. And they've been so great.

And they finally were able to get me a foster dog. And I got him over the weekend. And I'm kind of talking about this. before I actually have him in my care. So hopefully he's great. You guys can not see him on my Instagram. But yeah, they're going to hope he'll probably find a home soon. I mean, I think that people are thinking like I'm going to be a foster fail because I

fostered one dog in my life and that was Dewey and I kept him for 12 years. But I feel like I'm not totally ready to adopt and have another dog. I mean, like, Dewey was like truly the love of my life. And I'm sure I'll fall in love again with another dog. But I don't really feel like my heart is quite there yet. So I think I'm actually in a good headspace to foster and like knock it too attached. But who knows? That's how I feel.

I mean, now, I mean, you know, Dewey passed on January 8th. I still like miss him like crazy. I find myself just like, I can't believe he's gone. I can't believe he's gone. But I'll find myself just seen a photo or a video and I'm like, I can't believe he's gone. Like it's just, it is that grief that still like hits you in waves. And I'm not like sobbing in bed anymore. But it just, it still hurts.

And I just, I've felt the void. but I finally feel like I have enough space that I can start, like bringing other dogs in the home temporarily, kind of like, I feel like it's like, you know, we say this thing, it's from sex in the city that you get to great loves of your life in your life, which everybody's different. But like, I kind of think that's accurate.

And I'm like, I wonder if it's like that for dogs, you know? And like, Dewey was my first great love. And then I'll have like one more. But in the interim, I'm just like dating around. I have a question for you because you addressed us on another episode, but in case people didn't listen to that one, do you advice for people who have lost a pet, like if they're like, I don't know when I should start fostering?

Yeah, I mean, we talked about it on the episode. I guess we talked about adopting after you lose a pet. I mean, that is just all personal. Like it's just, like I said, I know people that have lost a dog and they went out and adopted a dog the next day and that's no judgment, you know, everybody's so different. Like, it's not that you're, like I said, it's like you lost your spouse and you get remarried the next day.

Like, you can have multiple dogs, like save another life, you know? Like, you know me. I'm just adopt, don't shop. So hardcore. Just, my God, guys, please. But no, I don't, I think it's like when you feel like ready. And New York is really, there's so many foster organizations that really need fosters because there's not a lot of shelters.

So like so many of these foster organizations in New York, which I'm learning more and more, is like they bring all these dogs from wherever, you know, like Texas, Puerto Rico. My dog, my foster dog was from South Carolina from, I don't know where, kill shelter or who knows. But then they need to put them in homes immediately. They don't have a place to put them. So they're always fostered before they get adopted. They have great systems in place.

But they bring them in and then it's a whole system. They're all like super organized. And then the fosters pick the dogs up and then they keep the dogs until the adopters adopt them. So they're like up for adoption while they're in your care. Anyway, but hearts and bones is a great one. Animal Lighthouse. Muddy paws.

We love them. Korean canine. Korean paws. Like I know all these organizations. But yeah, so I don't know what's going on right now. I'm telling you guys this beforehand, but hopefully it's going well. Cute little 42-pound fluffy tail black dog named Azul. I'm excited to meet him.

We have a big weekend coming up. We're going to adopt a dog to foster a dog. Listen, it's all the same to me. And we have a brunch date with Jamie Liu, which I'm so excited about. She's your friend. Yes, we love to keep you guys updated on guests if we actually become friends with them or we don't. Jamie Lee, we are becoming friends with. So we have a brunch day with her.

If you're listening on Monday, it was yesterday. So maybe it's on the gram. Do you have any wrecks? I have been out of the game. You know what I watched? Yeah, I restarted the office this week. I watched The Dark Night. I haven't seen the Dark Night.

Girl. Is that your first time seeing it? You got to get on the dark night. I have always wanted to see it. And then I feel like I forget about it. And then I remember when I'm on a plane. And then I'm like, do I want to watch this on an airplane? Oh, I love the Dark Night.

It's like my favorite Batman movie. Do you know I'm like a big Batman stand? No. Yeah, I am. X-Men, Batman. Love them. Oh, my God. I, not so much.

That's not my cup of tea, those kind of movies. But I've always wanted to see The Dark Night. What a hot take. It's such, okay, you know what else I watched? It's amazing casino I watched last week. I got halfway through casino and the Dark Night. Okay. While you're doing old wrecks, I'll tell you what I fired up.

Okay. It's hard to watch because you can really only watch it on YouTube, and that's newlyweds. Nick and Jessica. Oh, you're like the fifth person that's told me that they have gone on YouTube and rewatched. So I have so much to say. Newlyweds,

I mean, we're really talking to the millennials here. If you're really young, you wouldn't know it because you can't watch it. It's not on Amazon. It's not on Netflix or Hulu. Like it doesn't know. You can't stream it.

It was like an OG reality show. Yeah. You can buy the DVDs, I think. Like, whatever. You can't stream it. So you really have to like just search on YouTube.

There's a few YouTube. accounts that have a lot of the shows, but then they can't play the music. They have to kind dub in like other music so it doesn't get ripped down. Whatever. I watched like a lot of episodes. I watched the show when it was on, which was like 05 maybe. And then we talked about the book, Jessica Simpson's book. The show is so crazy to watch now. Like did we know watching it back then that they were just not compatible at all? Like did we think they had this cute, quirky relationship? because when you watch it now as a grown up just in 2021, it's like these people were not a match.

And was she 20 or whatever, 21? He was quite, he was like, he was 30. She was 21 years old. He turned 30 in the, at a sheltered 21. I don't think she's dumb. I've never really, I think she's ditsy and funny, but I think she's not a stupid person at all. I've never thought that.

And I think she's, it was self-aware. And she's like, this wife as a 21 or 22-year-old, whatever, that like shouldn't be a wife. You know, she's just like, I, you can, you watch it and you're like, this, I've never seen something more where like this girl was not ready to be like a wife and a homemaker and like take care of like laundry and cooking and meals and like cater to her husband. I think Nick is like every time he looks at her, I'd be like it's like a glare. I feel like it's so condescending. I'm not saying he's like a terrible person. I think they were just such a mismatch. And like, I was just like, did I watch this way back in the day and think like, oh my God,

they're so cute. And they just like, you know, bicker and it's like cute and funny. Like watching it now, it's shocking how not compatible they are. So I think, first of all, you and I've read her book, which we both highly recommend, and you do have insights into it where you know that she felt like shit all the time and he wasn't nice to her. But I do feel like two things. Back then, first of all, I think it was like all the rage to act like this, like, ditsy girl. Like, it was like her and Paris Hilton.

And it was like, you remember like the simple life? And it was like, people like played up this like ditsy side of you. Like I can't do anything. I can't do anything. I can't do the dishes. And also I probably watched that show when I was like 19 years old. I don't think I had any standards for how like men should be treating women. And I never understood like the age day.

I had no idea he was like a grown ass man. And this was essentially like a child that went from her parents' house, didn't go to college, was a pastor's daughter. Yeah. You know, I just, I, I just thought like, it's just how men treat women and she's kind of ditsy and that's how everybody acts. Right. But like you don't even, you don't even feel like he thinks it's cute.

Like you're watching. And like the only thing this couple can have going on possibly that's keeping them together is the sexual attraction, I guess. But like they're not, like, with. She seems like a caged bird, and he seems annoyed all the time. And she's also more successful than him, which is like a crazy another layer of the dynamic. Like there's this episode where she just like wraps her music video that had some crazy budget. And like Nick is trying to get like $10,000 more for his like shitty video that his label doesn't want to give him money for because he's like trying to be a solo artist that they know will never make it.

You know what I mean? Like it's like it's crazy that this younger woman who's like really can't act like an adult in the real world, but yet she's making. more money than him and should he's more successful. It's a fascinating dynamic to me, like the two of them. I mean, I also used to think that like Big and Carrie were like an iconic couple, and I thrive for that. And it's like, oh, that's literally my worst nightmare of that couple. There is a, there's a docu series.

I think I mentioned this, but I don't remember if I did on E, Andy Cohen hosts it. It's about reality TV. I know. I want to watch this. And it's great. It's maybe like six or seven part series. And it really takes you back because you like the Anna Nicole Smith show and the Osbournes. And I'm dating myself.

It's like, did he talk about that? Yeah. He talks about all those. Is it newlyweds, though? Newlyweds, he talks about the first cast of the real world, all these dating shows and things like that. And I thought it was really interesting to just like walk down memory lane. Yeah, I mean, it's just if you like Jessica Simpson,

you read the book and you want to like revisit that show, it's pretty nuts to watch because you're like, where's the like love here? This was crazy. These people never should get married. I used to watch that and think like, she's a little kid. What are these children doing in this giant house?

But when you watch it now, you're like, she got it. She says all the time, am I a bad wife? I'm not doing this. I don't feel like doing this. I didn't manage my time well. And am I going to cook dinner for you, Nick? And you watch this woman like in a place that she shouldn't, she doesn't want to be. She didn't have sex. It's like stressful to watch. It's like stressful to watch like the piles of laundry. And then she's like, can we hire somebody? I have more money than you. She's like, can we hire people? And I feel like he's like, no, you're my wife. You're supposed to take care of the house. And she's like, but we're rich. I know. I mean, I

You guys got to read the book. It's so good. Sorry. I just can't. She says, like, he married a child. Like, she even says, like, I was out of my league. He married a child. He wanted a wife to stay at home.

I started to become the more successful one, and then he resented that. Yeah. And she was, like, the original reality star. She blew the fuck up. Yeah. So, newlywed's casino, dark night. I can't recommend them enough.

Oh, my God. Somebody's going to be, like, brain it. It's not a hot take. Casino is from, like, 1993. Yeah, bitch, that's the point. That's why it's funny. That's why it's funny. Ashley started recommending all these,

movies from the early 90s. That's the gang. That's the gang. Okay. Guys, we really are, we are so excited to introduce today's guest. She is a therapist with 14, goddammit. Just keeps us in the episode. Okay, guys. We are so excited to welcome our guests today. She is a licensed therapist, a sought-after relationship expert with 14 years of experience, and is the founder and owner of the group therapy practice kaleidoscope counseling. She's also a New York Times bestselling author of the book, Set Boundaries, Find Peace. Please welcome to the show, Nedra Glover Toab.

I feel like that should go after that vibrant intro. Yeah. Hi, welcome. Yeah. Thank you. Nedra, I have to tell you, I was at my parents' house a couple weeks ago and just walked by their TV and saw you on it. I think it was Today Show or GMA, one of the two. And I was like, Raina, we have to have her on. That's how we got led to you. So I feel so validated that I was like, her, we got it. This is great. Boundaries.

Let's talk about it. Was it GMA or Today Show or you probably don't all? It was good morning America. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And my mom, I was like, Mom, wouldn't this be so great? she was like, yeah, she's amazing.

We, like, sat down and watched the whole segment. So anyway, that's how we found you. Yes. And you're coming to us from Charlotte, North Carolina. Yes. We are really just excited to have you. We reached out to you. Your publicist was nice enough to send us your book.

I crushed your book in one afternoon, all about boundaries. I learned a lot about myself and things I'm doing wrong. And I thought it was phenomenally insightful. So we're going to talk to you about your work. So you're a therapist, and you wrote this book. Yes, yes. I've been a therapist in Charlotte for, gosh, I've been here about 12 years now, and I was a therapist, a few years in Detroit.

And since the beginning, a lot of my work has centered on boundaries. People say, like, how did you get started talking about this? I was like, I was born, and then I became a therapist. And the rest is history. Like, it's so much of our relationships, how we engage with others, that it was just such an important thing for me to help people with enmeshed families. systems, codependency, financial issues, really looking at these things from a place of what if we have the power to change this just by having some healthier boundaries?

Absolutely. One of the things you called out that I thought was interesting was that people ask you so many questions and that you can really boil down a lot of these issues to a boundary issue and then diagnose, why aren't you setting these? Why do you not trust yourself to do it? And then all the negative things that come from not having those practices in yourself. So I found that specifically really enlightening. Yeah, absolutely. I think that even with talking to people about the book, they're like, I'll read it, but I don't have any

boundary issues. I'm like, please read the book. I know you have at least 200 of them, right? That's like saying, like, I don't have any trauma. It's like you will find some. You do that. It's something if we really think about it. So many of the things that happen, you know, anxiety, repression, resentment, the way we operate in our relationships, feeling overwhelmed, burnout. Like all of these issues can be traced to boundaries, especially with mental health. Sometimes we get really anxious in social settings because really the boundary could be we have this annoying friend and we haven't let them know like when we go out, you drink too much and it makes me really uncomfortable and I don't want to go with you.

Or, you know, can we talk about how you behave when you're drinking or all of these things and we feel really anxious and we think it's like something we can't control? And really, perhaps there's a conversation that we can have with people that will make us feel a bit better interacting with them. Not all anxiety, but sometimes that is a root of it that we need to be in conversation more. Absolutely. Do you want to give us just a quick kind of overview of boundaries, the different levels and, you know, what kind of defines that in general? Yeah. So first I want to just say, what is a boundary? A boundary is a parameter that you sell with yourself or others in your relationships. Boundaries make you feel safe and comfortable. Now, there are two ways that we can communicate our boundaries. One is verbal when we when we ask for something. We make a request.

We state a need. We state no. We tell people when we're uncomfortable with something. And then there are behavioral boundaries. And that may look like not calling your ex. That may look like not going to places with people when you feel uncomfortable. It may look like not answering your door when you don't want to have company and someone shows up unannounced.

It may, you know, look like asking for help in some instances. So there are two ways we set boundaries verbally and behaviorally. And there are multiple areas where we can utilize boundaries. In the book, I highlight in family relationships, dating relationships, friendships at work with social media and technology and romantic relationships. For most folks, family is the toughest area to set boundaries. I believe that is because we've had the longest relationship with those folks. They've known us, you know, our entire lives.

And so sometimes we have 25, 30, 40, 60 years of being perceived a certain way or dealing with things in a certain way. And, you know, we're ready to make that change. And it's hard because people know you as you've shown up. And now they're like, what? What are you doing? And so it's really important for us to know that we are all entitled to boundaries. So not just you having the boundaries, but other people can have them with you as well.

You're not the only boundary person that gets to operate in a world that other people can set expectations with you as well. So the book is, as you all have mentioned, it's organized in a way that takes you from the very beginning of what boundaries are all the way down to scripts of what to say and what to do. And, you know, one of the things you brought up about was anxiety, you know, and has a sign that you need boundaries. But I loved you talking about like signs that you need them. And even though people realize they need them, why they're so afraid to set them. So if you don't mind talking a little bit about that.

Yeah. So we fear boundaries because the biggest one is typically how someone else will feel. We worry a lot about how they'll feel. And we base that on how we feel when people tell us no, or we may base it on this person. Maybe we've shared something with them in the past and they did cry or they did get angry or they got upset. But the biggest fear with setting boundaries is what people will feel once we set them. What will they think and what will they do? Next, it's our inability to advocate for ourselves or the fear of disappointing another person.

So most of the fears we have around setting boundaries is based on perception. It's not really based on can I do it? What do I say? It's like, what will they think when I say blank? And why people don't like confrontation too. You know, it's just like the fear of the unknown, the fear of how someone will react. and then you probably just build it up in your head of like, they're going to cry or they're going to scream or they're going to cut me out of their life.

I mean, it's, which could happen, I guess. I think people just, they fear what could happen. Yeah, it's interesting because Ashley and I were talking about the book and these five buckets that you highlighted, friends, family, jobs, technology, and romance. And Ashley picked two that she thought they were the most interesting or challenging for her. And I picked two completely different ones. And for me, it's family and friends. And especially with friends, my female friends,

are the strongest women I know. They're so tough. They're so smart. I have a hard time, the hardest time setting boundaries my girlfriend because I'm like, well, I don't want to insult them. I'm afraid of what's going to happen.

I think that's the hardest thing for me. So my fear is that like these incredibly strong women are going to like, come for me. And I'm like, I don't want to insult them or make anybody feel bad. But like my romantic partners, I'm like, I don't care. What are you going to do?

I'll give you a blow job. You'll have a great day. Just nudger's like, that's not in the book. That'll be in the second version. I'd love to hear the two areas that you select it. Technology, I don't, and just kind of like separating myself and, you know, I have issues with, like, putting my phone down and, you know, not getting enough sleep and just things like that. And it's something I'm constantly working on. I feel like I'm really good at saying no and taking.

care of myself first. And like, you know, I'll always be there for someone in need, but I don't have a problem expressing how I'm feeling to a friend. And I've done it before. And it's worked out, you know, and I've had it had it done to me. I was telling Rain about a situation so many years ago where a friend just, I hate to say confronted because it didn't feel confrontational, but she just said like, you're late all the time. And it's, I feel like my time isn't being valued. And I would really love for you to work on this. And I was like, it's a little embarrassing. Honestly, it felt Like I was like taken aback. I was, I was younger.

I was in my 20s and I was like, this is awkward, but I, you know, noted and I'm going to work on this. And then years later, I had to do that to another friend who would just like keep me waiting all the time. And it came to a head and I kind of passed on my learning experience from that. And Raina only knows her as being punctual now. She took it really serious. She was like, okay, I'm that girl. I'm realizing now that I'm that friend. And now she's like the most punctual friend we have.

So I don't know Ashley as being not punctual. I don't think that of her as all. But we have an interesting relationship too because we work together. We're friends. We travel together. We are like family. And so I think we are always constantly. I've probably learned more about boundaries with Ashley than anybody else in the world because she is like my forever partner

in work, friendship, et cetera. And we always say like, you know, if you're in a healthy relationship, it feels easier to say like I need some space or I need to take a day off. you know, we're together all the time, but we don't take it personally if it's, hey, I just need a day or I need a couple hours. I find it interesting that your boundary issues are in different areas. Like the work and technology seems to be more about self boundaries. And the family and friends seems to be more about boundaries with

other people. And that's exactly it. Yeah. Actually. you hit the nail of that. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I think the self boundaries, which I have a whole chapter about, is really big for people because sometimes we don't think about the boundaries that we have to have with ourselves, like with social media and turning work off when we're on vacation and these sorts of things. We think of it as, this is a work problem. And it's like a step away from your email problem. If you are truly on vacation, like you can be on vacation. I mean, depending on the job, I mean, there are some jobs you have to be plugged in, but most of us are not, you know, ruling the world and we can detach some, right? So it's important to think about

in your relationships with people, not just the boundaries being external, but how are the boundaries internal? Like, what things can you do? When we think about, like, social media and technology, a lot of what we can do is just trick ourselves, you know, not sleep with our phones in our room, you know, give ourselves maybe an hour or so before we hop on social media in the morning, setting those timers, following less people, reducing the things we allow ourselves to do on social media. There are many different ways to manage how we're using these things. And I know that social media is set up for us to constantly be engaged and, you know, to look at the likes and to respond to the comments.

and these sorts of things. And it's really, you know, our personal job to be disciplined in how we engaged. And that is a really hard piece. It is a really hard piece, but also a possible one. And like you said, I think the work of boundaries is a constant practice to figure out, like, what can work for me in this situation. Yeah. And we, you know, Rain and I feel a part of our business and our platform and probably me

a little bit more so on social media is like kind of tackling what's going on in the world and just, you know, talking about the issues and standing up for what's right and we do tons of charitable stuff. And I get really overwhelmed because I feel, you know, I'll have people message me like, why haven't you talked about this today? And it's like, I need a break sometimes. I'm not going, I'm not a person that's like, I don't see what's going on in the news. Like I'm constantly thinking about it, but like everybody needs to take a little time away or if not take time away, think about how they want to say something. And it's a lot of it, I guess my problem is, we're doing a therapy session now here, is just feeling like a responsibility with my platform to,

you know, you don't want to let people down. They look up to you. Something's going on the news and they look to you for like to explain it or for their comfort or to see where you stand on it or something like that. And there's points where I just have to tell myself, like, I can take an hour away. I can go outside and I can take a walk and I can process this on my own before tackling it on social media. Yeah, and I think just as things happening in the news are heavy for other people, it's heavy for influencers. And like you said, there has to be a minute for you to pause and reflect and process your own feelings before you hop on social media and say, this is my position. It's like, I'm not even clear what it is because I'm still processing the news. Or my emotional response to that.

emotional response to it. And sometimes, you know, silence is the best I can do in some situations. It's not always me taking a stand because, you know, I don't know if it's useful. I don't know if it's effective. I don't know if I'm ready to share because, you know, your opinion is private until you make it public. So am I ready to make it public? Maybe not.

You know, maybe that's something that you are processing internally with your support team. And I understand that. You know, when we see people with a platform, we're like, why aren't you saying anything that there is something that we think should be said? But I think a beautiful thing for influencers to do is set standards for their community. And that could be a part of your community standard where you say, hey, things may happen, but I have to be able to process those things.

It doesn't mean that I support or condone anything that is happening against humans, animals, the weather, and any sort of thing happening. But I need to process things internally first. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think that there's a cost to not setting any boundaries in any areas. And I think there's probably a lot of people sitting here being like, well, people don't respect my boundaries.

And so can you maybe talk about why people don't respect your boundaries and the cost of that? People typically don't respect boundaries that aren't clearly stated. Sometimes we think we're stating a boundary and we're just talking about problems. Like, you're always late. You never bring anything to the potluck. Your pants are dripping on the floor. Problem, problem, problem.

Like we're saying all of this stuff. And really, the boundary is what the solution. When we have a date together, please arrive on time. That is what the boundary is. The boundary is not the problem. but we tend to do more speaking in problems. That's where we're comfortable. Like this is the problem.

I don't like this. My food is this. What do you want? Please take my food back to the kitchen because I did not order this meal. That's the boundary. And you see people that will sit there with that plane in front and they'll be pissed the whole time and they'll pop off to everybody else. And then they'll go and yelp. It would have been so easy if they just would have said something and got a meal that they could eat.

100%. You said this thing. I wrote it down. and you wrote short-term discomfort for long-term healthy relationships is worth it. Yeah, I mean, I know it's saying the waiter and this food sucks, take it back.

It's different, but it really resonated with me because it's like, yeah, these conversations suck. They are not, it's not easy to look at your friend and be like, I love you, but you're late and I don't fucking like it. You don't swear at them. But I think it's like a good mantra to adopt that like if you just rip the band-aid off,

people can be better than you think they're going to be and it will foster a healthy relationship in the future. Yeah, and maybe the person who is all, always late doesn't recognize how you're impacted by it. And what you're saying to them is I am having an impact and I would like you to do this instead. And that's what you're communicating when you're sharing a boundary with someone that this thing is bothering me. Instead of pretending to be unbothered as we love to do, I don't care when people do this.

I don't care when people send me messages and they say this in my DM. No, I do care. Someone sent me a message the other day and I processed it with a friend that I have online and I said, you know, this happened. Can I bend your ear for a minute? I just want to vent. I'm not pretending to be unbothered. This comment bothered me. I am bothered fully, fully bothered.

Like, I can't pretend that this does not bother me. But I think so often people don't hear our boundaries because we are not being clear about them. We are pretending that we do not care when people do things that really do bother us. Also, we're not being consistent in setting the boundary. We will tell people things like, please don't show up late and then we 30 minutes late the next time. Well, what kind of rules are you setting? It's like, please don't eat in the classroom.

Meanwhile, the teacher is eating. Like, come on. Like, you have to follow the expectation you're trying to set with us. other people. So it's really important that if you are saying something to someone, that you maintain that within yourself with them as well. But the biggest thing is, you know, the consistency, that is another huge piece. We will say it one time and we expect people to get it forever, particularly in families. We will say at one time, we've been away for 30 years and we say at one time and we're like, okay, I've said it one time, get it forever.

Yeah, I think that you also, at least may, I don't know about you, but you know, you're like, I'm not going to make a big deal out of every single thing, right? You know, but my brother, for example, he's very sarcastic with me. I don't want to pick a fight with him every time it happens. But then all of a sudden you haven't picked a fight for all 10 times it's happened, and then you're just pissed and you're keeping score and you're like, this always happens, and you look back, you're like, well, I never told this person I was mad or hurt, so how should they know?

They can't be expected to read my mind. But then you've built up this whole like arsenal against somebody. And that's not fair to them either, but you're pissed. I'm pissed at him. I'm going to say right now. Yeah. And we don't like to be seen as sensitive because people, oh, you're just being sensitive. Own it.

Look, I'm very sensitive. Please do not make jokes about me because I take it to heart. And I don't move past it. I know you're trying to, you know, be funny and, you know, sometimes it is. But 90% of the time is not. It's not funny to me. and I'm taking it very personally. I feel attacked, and I want us to communicate in a different way.

So is there some way that we could crack a joke without me being the butt of the joke? Right. And sensitive doesn't mean you don't have a sense of humor. Raina, we do we do comedy for a living. We have great senses of humor. We make fun of ourselves all the time. We're self-deprecating. But there comes a point where you can't just keep making these slights and expect me to let them roll off my back.

And I think sometimes that people feel like it's synonymous. Like if someone calls you sensitive, that means you're just like this lame person who can't take a joke, which is not true. I'm sensitive. And then I think sometimes people get, they feel a little gaslit. Like I'm thinking of an example of people that have a professional skill.

Like, you know, all of us. And when people are like, can I pick your brain or can I, you know, have some free time with you while you basically do your work for free for me. And I think that's something you maybe when you're more starting out, that those lines are tougher to draw.

And we're happy to set them now. But I mean, even when I was, I remember walking away from some lunches when I was a lot younger and I was like, I just consulted someone for free, like a friend of a friend, not a close friend. And I was like, what am I? Why did I do that? She didn't even pay for my lunch, you know?

Like, what just happened here? And we have a great friend who's a stylist as a great, her own business. clear and like this is my job. You don't pick my brain for free. You can sign up for my programs. You can sign it for my services. You know, this is what I do. And I think sometimes fears with things like that professionally are that you'll look like you take yourself too serious or you don't want to help other people out or you don't want to help women out or whatever it is. And I mean, I, to be clear, I always want to help people I'm really close to with my friends and there are situations where it's something reciprocal. Someone's

helping you with their expertise and vice versa. It also depends on the nature. of the work. But I think we all know the situations where it's like a weird ask. It feels uncomfortable and you don't know how to respond. Yeah, you all complimented me on my fingernails and my friend does my nails and I pay her her full price with a tip. As a matter of fact, I tip her so well. I'm like, what is your price? Because I think I pay you over the price. I'm like, wait a minute. And I constantly encourage her, you should raise your prices. You should raise your price. You're so good at this. You should raise your prices. And she'll, oh, some people raise them on me too, because if it's too high, I will go somewhere else. I want you to succeed

in business. So that way, when we go out to lunch, you could pay for it or I could pay for it. Right. You know, I'm paying you for your service. I love spending this time with you, but you're at work. Right. And this is manual work, you know, on top of it. This is your job. I shouldn't expect you to do your job for free, that's not reasonable, even if it is friends, even if it is family. Now, I think sometimes what we can do is maybe offer a discount. Let's say you're an accountant and you do do a few folks taxes or something. Maybe say, you know, I will give you $50 off as a friend. You can have that rule or you could just say, actually, I don't like to do friends and families taxes, but I know a person you could go to for this service.

A lot of what I do is I refer. When people ask me a bunch of information, I say, I know a great coach who can help you with blank. I know a great person who could be your therapist because I cannot do all of those things within a friendship, not in a family relationship. And so it makes sense to just have a few people on your list when they're signing. things like so how do you start a podcast find somebody who's already doing that ladies and just be able to give that person's name off like oh you should call so and so they help people start podcast

here's a youtube series here's a youtube series right because guess what we did googled it yeah we sat in my brooklyn department and googled how to start a podcast and as she was like I'll learn how to edit it and I was like I'll start out to social media um okay so it sounds like you know you explain to people, they need boundaries and people are like, okay, I have like all these, like, fucked up boundary issues. But, like, I don't know how to do it, you know? And I think it does get older. It get better and easier as you get older. And as you have all these confrontations and you realize it will be fine. But especially when you're younger or if you're just not naturally prone to doing it, like, if somebody says to you like, I know I don't know how the hell to start, you know,

is there like an easy path? And is there like, maybe even to back up, like, are there people you shouldn't set boundaries with at all? Because they're just toxic people and you just cut them out of your That is a boundary too. Cutting someone out is a boundary. Great. Okay. I would say the easiest way is to use one to two sentences and started with I need, I want, I expect, or even just saying no period. Sometimes in the beginning, we can be talked out of our boundaries if we're saying too much because we're not even comfortable with setting it. So don't give people this paragraph about, I need you to show up on time because sometimes I'm sitting here and I have something else to do. do and the people come over.

You're saying too much. You start spiraling. It's like, why are we talking about tennis? Like, what just happened? So just say something really simple. You don't have to give a reason. You don't have to explain yourself. You can if you feel comfortable doing that. Sometimes we don't. We don't have the tools to do it.

And sometimes we don't have the confidence yet to get into the explanation of why we need something. So it's okay to just be really simple. I would even say if you have a problem with saying it to a person face to face, hey, we're in a pandemic. Some stuff isn't face to face. Even texting someone and saying, hey, the next time you want to stop by, please let me know before you come.

You know, just letting people know, like, this is not working and try not to wait to until like the hundredth time. but really doing it when you notice yourself being irritated. We know when we're irritated because we want to, a lot of times we're like, oh gosh, we want to talk about it to other people. We want to process it. We wreck our brains like, did they just do? If you have a did they just do moment, you need a boundary.

If you have a situation where you have to process it with someone else, you probably need a boundary. If you're like avoiding someone, you certainly need boundaries. So there are all these signs. of boundaries are needed and we tend to just bypass it and continue in a relationship and the thing that happens is we're just building more frustration more isolation more anger more and one day you know most of us we explode we cut people off we stop talk because they've done 75 things by the time we get to talk to them about the one thing they were doing so just speaking it sooner is is really helpful

Yeah, I mean, I want to give credit to Ashley. She's great at it and I've learned a lot, especially, like I said, about friendships and, you know, breaking plans is something that drives me insane, but I won't always necessarily be like, I won't rack it up and then like flip out on you. I just sort of, I do. I'll just passive aggressively just cut somebody out of my life and stop making plans. And Ashley is better at that than I am and just concisely being like, hey, here's a couple examples. You did this thing. I didn't love it. And I think that she trusts that the person that she's talking to will like have a empathetic response more than I do sometimes.

I mean, I don't like attack people. Like you did this, you did this. Oh, I always want to like come from love. No, I know you didn't. I mean that. But I guess, you know, you said you don't have to tell. You don't have to give a reason. But which is sometimes I feel like what I would struggle with and I think most people

struggle with is verbalizing or whether, you know, or whether it's text or whatever you're doing what that reason is. And again, you said you don't have to, but it may be people fear that someone would be like, well, why? You know, why, why do I have to tell you? And then you're stuck in this weird place of having to explain yourself. Yeah. So when you fire people, if you are in a role where you fire people, most HR professionals

would tell you, do not give a bunch of information because you don't want them picking apart the reason that they were fired. So you say, this relationship is no longer working. Your last day here is April 22nd. You can pick up your last paycheck at. blank, right? You don't say, because you're late every day, because you did this, because you did that, because sometimes people will say, well, I wasn't late on this day or I have this information, people can always pick apart things when they want to. And there are some people who live

to pick apart your story. They live to figure out a way to get some wiggle room within the boundary. I think it's okay to give an explanation or reason when you feel comfortable. doing so when you're able to stand firm in your boundary. The challenge is sometimes we're not really secure in setting the boundary. And so if people come in with this like, well, why and how we will give up our boundary and be like, okay, I guess it doesn't make sense. And now you broke me down. You broke me down.

You don't even feel like your boundary makes sense. But here's the truth. Sometimes we don't know why. And that's okay. You just want it. like do you need to say well when I was five someone popped up promptly you know it's like do you have to have a story to go along with like I just feel comfortable when I have noticed I want to iron my clothes you know I don't know like well I have a life you know you're not the only thing in

my life I was planning to watch law and order like you know I have other things to do so do we really want to go down the path of validity with a boundary like this is the boundary is now valid because I have this great reason. It's like I could have the silliest reason ever and still have a boundary. 100%. Yeah, like, I could be doing nothing and I still don't want you to ask me to help you paint. Like, I could be doing nothing. Right.

A lot of times it's because I don't want to. I don't want to. Can you help me move? No. Absolutely not. Here's $5. I put it towards a mover. I'm not helping.

Yeah. I have a mover recommendation. Yeah. Here's 10% off using the code GGE. I will never help you. Okay, here's my only, like, pushback to that is that I don't, I don't personally like using phrases like you always do this. So I usually like to say, you know, the last three times we hung out, you were 25

minutes late, I didn't like it. You know, that's my reason, that's my boundary. It's not a three-hour explanation, and I don't need to explain to you why it pisses me off. And my mom didn't leave me to hair salon for four hours once, and I don't like the people are late now. Yeah. You know, but I do.

I personally, at least it helps me, man. manage it a little better to be able to go into a conversation and say, here's some examples. I didn't love it. Let's not do that again. Yeah. No, certainly. If I said always, I'm going to slap myself on the therapist. You didn't.

Okay. Yes. No, not in always, but if you're going to give examples, I would say choose the most recent one and really just try to stick to that one and not bring in, well, in 2008, it's like, nobody remembers 2008, but you, because you were bothered by it. and this person is like, I don't even remember this thing. Right. You build an arsenal of like, you're just sitting here like building ammo against me.

It's like a crazy person. Yeah. Some people never forget. And then the things that don't work, like obviously that, saying things like that, then passive aggressiveness, passive aggression. Can you give us some examples of things to absolutely not do? Yeah. So being passive aggressive.

So this is a way that we, in a very unhealthy way, will set boundaries. So, you know, if a friend tells you something and you know that they tell your business, you tell other people just like, well, she doesn't respect my business. So I can tell her business. That's very passive aggressive instead of saying to the person, hey, if I share something with you, please keep it between the two of us. That's private information. So, you know, like this low-key retaliation and not really telling the person,

I think sometimes with boundaries as well, we can be a little manipulative. trying to get what we want from others. We're not being very direct. So, you know, you'll see this sometimes with couples where, you know, people will withhold sex to maybe get someone to do something, but they haven't communicated what they want done. And so it's very important to be very clear about your need because people will not figure out, like, oh, we're not having sex because I didn't wash the dishes. Like, you know, you have to very clearly say, can you do the dishes?

So really being clear about what you want is super helpful. And then sometimes we are super passive about our boundaries. We know what they are. We know that we're bothered. And we don't say anything. And the ultimate is the aggression. I think sometimes when we have been sitting on things since 2008, it could be the smallest thing.

And I'm sure you've seen it. Like somebody just drops your APN and then you just go off. and you start talking about 2008, and then that time at Coachella, and then that time, and you're like, they're like, whoa, what just happened? And you're calling them names and, you know, their future children will be, you're like, whoa, what just happened? What happened is you lost? Yes, yes.

It's like you've been upset about something resentful. And, you know, the pin dropping on the floor was just like the final straw of everything. as things come up. It's okay to mention them. And I heard one of you say earlier something about you don't want to be petty, but I think we should talk about things as they bother us. And if we notice like it's 2,000 things about this person that bothers us, do we need to be in a relationship with this person?

Is this something we need to manage? I don't think we will have that many things. But if, you know, once a week you said something, is that being petty? if once a month you said something, I think that's just a part of being in a relationship and really creating the relationship that works best for the both of you. There are going to be some things

this other person says to you. There doesn't have to be a count of, okay, you set two boundaries with me, so now I get two boundaries. You know, it's just this back and forth of we are teaching each other how to be in relationship with each other because every relationship is different.

Every person is different, and we have to figure out how to work together. It's like when you get a job, you figure out what to do in the job. You don't say, well, this is how I did everything at my old job. This is a whole new system. We're using computers now, people. So you learn the new stuff and you figure it out. And those people who don't, it's like, well, she can't work here. She doesn't want to type.

You know, like you have to go with the flow of what is if you want to be in these situations. so it is a back and forth. Yeah, and hopefully the boundary is something you communicate. It's an all-encompassing thing. You know, maybe the one boundary is you are always sarcastic and it hurts my feeling and I don't want you to do it. You mentioned it maybe two more times. And then you can evaluate whether you want that person in your life.

And, you know, you talk about the between communication and action and how, like, you communicate this once, but, like, really where it sticks is the action. I like you differentiated between those. So, like, okay, so I've communicated the boundary to somebody that, like, you're sarcastic all the time and I don't like it and I don't want to be called sensitive. So like what's the action after that? Not that specific one, but in general, long-term action for these things.

Yeah, so let's use that one. In that situation, when the person is sarcastic, they are not hearing your boundary. Do you then the physical action is removing yourself? I'm going to go now because I've asked you to do this thing and I don't want to continue to engage because I don't feel like my boundaries are being respected. I'm going home. You know, there are things that you can do or even, you know, sometimes it's reducing our interaction with people who don't want to respect our boundaries. And I think ultimately,

sometimes we decide to end those relationships with people because they have this habitual way of not honoring us. And it can be, you know, the sarcasm may not be an example, but it could be situations where people are putting you in harm's way. They are being verbally abusive. They are doing things physically that you're uncomfortable with. And you've mentioned it. You've tried to set a physical boundary and they're still not honoring it. So you may decide to no longer be in that relationship, to reduce your contact, you know, maybe step away when you notice this thing. If it's something you can do on your end, please try to do it. Like sometimes it's not initiating the contact can can really reduce contact. I don't know if you've had those sort of relationships

where when you stop initiating, it's like, oh, wow, I really don't talk to that person. And anymore because you were the person who was initiating everything with this person that you were having all these issues with. It's like, where you were calling them every day. They weren't calling you. It was you. Yeah. And I love what you said about that.

You said it about drinking early on. And I've definitely heard of situations. And I feel like we've been in those situations where you have a friend that you really like them when they're sober. They've had a couple drinks. You go to a dinner one on one, but you really don't like to party with them. They get sloppy drunk, you know, they're falling all over the place. and that's an okay boundary too, you know, of like, I'm always happy to go out with you and get sushi,

but I just don't really want to be at the club with you. It's like, you know, figuring out how, if it's a relationship you want to maintain, how it does work for you and you feel comfortable. Absolutely. That's a great example or, you know, making them your movie pal or something like that. Right. Like there are so many things we could do, but going to a club and going to parties, that those are not the things we can do.

But we can go to a museum. Drinking came up a lot in the book. And, you know, with your family members also. And I'm glad that you touched on it because I think it could be hard, especially with a parent that drinks too much. We don't have to get too deep into it because obviously alcoholism is a whole other thing. But I recommend people do read your chapter about family specifically if that's an issue for them. Can we go, do you mind, can we go through a few like more specifics?

Like, I mean, this is a dating podcast. Can we talk about some of the romantic dating? dating things that you see. Yeah, I think some of the biggest things happen with not setting your expectations in the relationship early and kind of allowing the other person to create the flow or set whatever tone it will be. And at some point, we know who we are and what we want. We know we want to be in a relationship. But some people are even scared to communicate that boundary and say,

I want to be in a committed relationship. And so, you know, they'll passively say, well, I don't care. I'm just, you know, spending time with people to see what the energy is and if we connect. And it's like, you want to be married. You're like yourself. You want to be married. And, you know, that doesn't scare a person off if that's what they want to. And so just being really honest about what you want.

And sometimes you just want to hook up and saying that. So being honest about. who you are and what you want early on is really helpful. When you are in committed relationships, it's really important to have conversations about what the commitment is. Like, what is commitment? You know, how do we sign ourselves up to be in a partnership and we don't even know to terms of the partnership? What sort of situations are we doing? We do it all the time. We haven't defined cheating. We haven't defined how we'd like to see our partners operate in a social media space. Don't you be liking too many bikini picks? You got about one a year, you know? So we need to,

one year. Hope it was fun. That was fun. That was your one for the whole year. So, you know, so, so make sure that you're being. I'll give them one a quarter. You can do one a quarter. One a quarter. One a quarter. The Q2 like. And at the end of the year, even to rank them. And I'm just like, you really shit the bed in Q2. That was not even that good of a spaghetti back. Do you see you in couples a lot that somebody is like, they want all of my time all the time? And I don't know how to like explain that boundary. I don't, I don't want that. Yeah. I think that that does happen that there is. And I think initially is not a big deal because

both of you are like, yes, yes, we're not being ourselves. We're so fun. But then when you come back to yourself, you're like, whoa, I don't really like to spend every day with people. That was great for two months. Yeah. And it's okay to talk about your boundaries at any point. And we have to acknowledge, like, you know, that was the, like, I'm so in this moment with you. And it happens at the beginning of all relationships. And what I'm meeting right now is a little bit more space on, you know, the weekends. I'd like to take Sunday to to chill out. And sometimes we don't have to say that to a person. we just need to do it. We're looking for the permission that we could give ourselves.

And we think there's this big conversation we have to have. And again, it might just be not going over there and just deciding to stay home and watch TV instead. So there may not be a conversation. And sometimes it is. So the person just knows, like, I'm going to take some time for myself today, letting people know that in the beginning this was not an issue, but it's an issue now because I realize I haven't done laundry in four weeks. You know, like there are things that you may let go of trying to connect and you're so

excited. I think about those early moments. And I don't even know where you get this energy to be in relationships in the beginning. Like I'm like, I don't ever want that again. I jump out of bed. I'm like, where, why is she up at 7 a.m. today? I've only slept two hours. Yeah.

It's like you're on the phone all night. You want to see them all day. You can't really operate like that. That's not reasonable. It's not so you haven't washed your clothes in two months. Your friends don't know where you are. You know, you have to come back to yourself at some point. And when you do, I think that it makes sense to communicate like, yo, I haven't washed my clothes in two months.

I need to spend Sunday just watching clothes and catching up on online orders I missed or, you know, whatever it was. like, you know, they have five shows. I've missed 70. So I need to spend the day watching, folding, and watching TV. I think it's great that you highlighted that just because it didn't used to be a boundary doesn't mean that it's not okay for it to be a boundary now. Just because for my, like when somebody says to you like, well, it wasn't a problem before, well, I'm allowed to learn new information or change and make it a boundary today. And I think that it's great to give permission to people to do that. Yeah. And I think the communication is important too. I mean, because I think you care about this person if you still want to be in a relationship with them.

I think those of us women, you know, especially have an intuition of like, wait a minute, something's changed. Is this, you know, so it's, I think it's important to not just fall off the face of the earth because you need to set a boundary. And like, people with more anxious attachment styles tend to be like, wait a minute, something's changing. You know, we used to spend all weekend together. You know, why does my partner now want to take time for themselves? So some of that is just like reassuring, I think, with love and empathy, like, hey, it's nothing's wrong. just I need a little bit of time to myself, you know. Yeah, and I think you mentioned an anxious attachment style, which I do talk about a little bit

in the book, the different attachment styles. And I think particularly when someone is anxious, you can reassure them and they can still not feel reassured because that is a personal thing. And some of their boundaries are going to be around allowing people to have space, you know, respecting people boundaries when they are requesting space because the more you push them to connect more than more they may pull away because when people are asking for space they do it because they need it is is not because you know anything to do with you but i mentioned washing clothes like that is a human need that has nothing to do with me not liking you that has

everything to do with being out of shirts like those are like i'm not saying i don't love you anymore i'm literally saying i have no socks like that's not i'm not i'm not i'm not trying to offend anyone here. There are things that you might like to do alone. You might like to go out with your friends and not have your partner come along. So these are things that you can do, and it doesn't mean anything against another person. Yeah. I'd love to talk about, and this is all relationships. I think romantic, friends, familial, being like emotionally dumped on, like really just like taking a lot of people's problems and pain. And if you're an empathic person or just an empathetic person or just a caring person,

you're thinking you're supposed to be there for your friend and you're supposed to be there for your partner and you're supposed to be there for your family. Geez, I mean, that was what I was thinking earlier when you were talking about family is like, aren't we taught, you know, family, be there for your family? And of course you should, but those boundaries are tough because you don't want to feel mean or non-supportive. With emotional dumping, most of us can identify. identify the key players in our lives who do the dumping, right?

Because they do it all the time. We can, you know, close your eyes. You know, the person, it just popped in your head. You got them, right? One of the things I think that we do is we allow the conversation to continue in the same way that it always does. We start, how are you doing? You know how they're doing. You know how they're doing.

And they're about to tell you and you don't really want to hear it. I see her face right now. I see her. Yeah. see her face right now. It's like, oh, she's going to tell me how she's doing. Okay, so the first thing is redirecting the conversation. Let's get creative about things you could say other than how you're doing. Why don't you start the conversation with something you'd like to talk about this time? Why don't you think of some things that you all have in common that are actually pleasurable to talk

about and not allow this person to do what they always do in the conversation, which is, oh my gosh, just got off work and you know that my boss is that it is like oh here she goes again with the boss you know so how do you shift the dynamics and conversation it is possible it is possible to do and I have found that people sometimes don't even know that that's not what you want to hear because you just said it we feel like this is how you're supposed to talk to your friends this is how you're supposed to talk to your family so even as you're like saying this stuff It's like, oh, this is normal. I get to complain about whatever.

And it's like, yo, I just got off work too. Right. I have problems too. I'm a person. Yeah, I don't want to talk about work anymore. As a matter of fact, let's not talk about work. You know, what other things can we talk about? And really talking about that thing, steer people away.

When people are having problems such as trauma and an old issue, you are not their therapists. And it's very important that you don't operate in the capacity of therapists. And you say to that person, you know, this seems like an ongoing issue. It seems like a deep issue. We've talked about this a few times. I don't feel like I'm being really helpful. Have you thought about talking to a therapist?

I know a therapist who can help you with blank. Really, again, referring these people to some other source besides you, because you cannot help a person with trauma. I mean, like, if they really need help, like, you don't have the tools. Like, what are you going to give them? Homework assignments and, you know, let's revisit your inner child. Like, no, you're not doing that. Those are things that they need to do with the therapist.

And sometimes people aren't ready. And even saying that, you know, I understand that you're not ready. Maybe it's a scary process. But I don't know if it's helpful for. me to talk to you about this because you don't seem to be making any strides with this. So really being honest and letting people know, there are some things I don't have the answer to. I cannot answer any accounting questions because I don't have the answers.

I'm not going to pretend and Google and I don't know. That's my answer. I don't know. You should call an accountant. So why do we think our friends are supposed to know everything? You're asking them computer questions and, you know, call Apple. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't have the answer to everything.

And there are some things that people will dump. They'll come and look for solutions. Like, I don't have them either. So redirecting. The redirecting is great with friends. You know, you've brought this up a lot. But I think with your romantic partner, you are really supposed to be their partner. You are the person that they dump on.

And you want to dump on them. I guess dump on's the wrong word. They're your partner. You know, that's the person you should trust the most to be able to have these open, honest conversations with. And I like the advice of like maybe I'm a little out of my league here. And maybe we seek therapy or you seek therapy, but I don't seem to be helping. So like let's find something that will. What I did was in a past relationship of mine, I mean, we were, we had a lot of issues as a couple, but there was a lot of trauma on his end. And at that point, I still really wanted

to make it work, but I ultimately wanted him to seek therapy. He was not opposed to it. I think it's a matter of like finding the right person, pulling the trigger on it, you know. So I went to there. I found a therapist for me through a recommendation. And I went to her and was like, I'm going to start the ball rolling. You know, like I'm just going to go. And I'm going to talk about our relationship. And I went. And then she was able to recommend the best therapist for him that I think he probably still sees. I don't know if I would guess. Years later that then I was able to say, I went to this great therapy session today and maybe she recommended somebody

that might work for you and he went to him and that was for years. So that doesn't work for everybody. If somebody's really opposed, like I knew he was already open. I just needed to kind of like open the door and provide like you said the recommendation because if it's a foreign concept to somebody

which I don't think therapy is here in 2021 but people don't know where to start and they're not all therapists are created equal, you know that. So sometimes it's like, what do I do? I just Google them. Do they take my insurance? You know, these things. So I think sometimes maybe you, if you're the person that really wants to push them towards that route, you maybe need to do a little research on your own if you really want to help. And you really want to just give them a gentle nudge if it's someone that you really love and care about. We recommend things to people all the time, books, therapists, drinks and restaurants

and all sorts of stuff. And I think we have to continue that as people are complaining about things that, you know, sometimes coaching. When you have a friend with a deep problem, it's like you have to be trained to help sometimes with these things. Like it's just like, I don't have the training to get you to leave a damaging relationship and you want to keep talking about that relationship. Like I care so much about you that it hurts.

me to hear this. And I don't know if I can continue to listen to it if you're not going to get help with it because it hurts me to hear it. Absolutely. Well, I think that we touched on this a little bit, but maybe we like end the episode talking about, you know, when you draw boundary and people really push back because you talk a lot in the book about different ways. I wrote down defensiveness, testing limits, anger, and rationalization. You've touched in a few of these things, but I would love to talk about, you know, you set the boundary, you take the action and people just push back. You talked about rationalization a little bit, but I'd love to get into it all. And especially with, I think we, I know I've seen really bad situations happen with family because

I think that like family triggers each other so much more. I'll say that all the time. Something a friend could say wouldn't even trigger me at all, but if my brother said it, it would. You know, I think we have these like, we're so deep with our family. And I have a friend that tried to set a boundary with a parent and who, you know, is, does have an alcohol issue. And she tried to set that boundary and it did not work. And they have not spoken in years, you know, because I think it's a parent, their child telling them like, hey, you can't do this. I think if they're not in the right headspace, they're going to flip out, you know?

And I think it's so difficult. So defensiveness and anger. Yeah. And how dare you? How dare you, especially like I can imagine so much parent and child. Like I birthed you. I took, how dare you tell me what I can and can't do in our relationship? Yeah, there are some relationships with parents where it is rather difficult to set boundaries.

And I would even say sometimes with siblings, because you could, you know, you could be the oldest and feel like you can tell your little sister who's 42, you know. Like, you know, I think those things do happen. And sometimes people will push back and they will, you know, really agitate you. continue to do so because they're just not going to listen to the boundary. And we have to make the difficult decision of is this such an egregious act that we need to, you know, maybe exit this situation. Is this situation impacting my mental health in the case of parents with addiction?

Yes, it, you know, it's kind of like you don't get the opportunity to thrive after childhood because you're still in it if the parent is still having an addiction issue, right? Like you're constantly like re-triggered. It's like, oh, this is the time I was left at school. Oh, this is the time. It's like it's constantly coming back because they're still doing it. So in those situations where a parent may not want to respect that boundary, you have to consider your mental health.

You have to figure out if you can speak with them maybe less frequently. If you could call them early in the morning before they start drinking, Like, what sort of things can you do if you want to stay in this relationship? And is this a relationship you want to stay in? Because it does wear on you. I think, you know, pushback certainly. I think sometimes retaliation, people will get so upset at you for having a boundary with them that they'll set one with you or they'll throw in this like defensive thing of,

well, I never ask you to do that for me. And it's like, yeah, it's not your boundary. it is my boundary and our boundaries can be different. You can be okay with something that I am not okay with and that's okay. Like we don't have to have all equal boundaries because my boundaries are about me and yours are about you. Sometimes people will, you know, make fun of you, call you sensitive, say mean things, try to really get you to feel bad about having a boundary.

And the truth is, I think most people are. are sensitive. I think is displayed differently. Some people, they show, they may, they may cry, they may say something, these sort of things. And then some people just internally process it. But I think most of us have some feelings about the things happening to us and around us. So to call someone sensitive, it's like, okay, you are too. Also, I would rather be sensitive than be an asshole. Non-feeling. And the worst thing you're going to lob at me is that I'm being sensitive. It's like I think that I care about you and I don't like the way I'm being treated and that's why I'm being quote-unquote sensitive. Like that's not the worst thing I could

be. And I think that people are worried about the defensiveness on the other end and that's probably why you don't confront people because you're like they're going to come at me and, you know, I think it can be really frightening. But I don't know, what's the worst thing somebody's going to say to you're too sensitive? And when people don't want to respect the boundary, let's say they push back, they're defensive, they're retaliating. They are, you know, doing all of these things. We have to recognize that some people won't respect our boundaries. It's not going to make sense to people all the time.

It doesn't mean that you shouldn't have them. It doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean you should take it back. It doesn't mean you need to change anything. It's an unfortunate truth that your boundaries may not work for everybody because people have their own agenda as well. and you have to decide, you know, what do you want to do when someone isn't respecting your boundary? And that's the real hard part.

What we typically do is they won't listen to me. And it's like, yeah, they won't. Now what? What will you do now that they won't? We can't make them. You know, boundaries are essentially a request. You're like requesting that your friends show up on time. You're requesting that this guy lets you know 48 out.

He could still not do it. And that is their choice. And so if that is the case, you know, it's so beautiful and loving when people respect the boundary. But if they do not, you have to decide what you want to do in the relationship. And maybe they're deciding like, I'm sorry, I don't want to, I don't really want to deal with all these boundaries. You have two, you know, not that it's not a negative thing clearly, but there's just some people that are a mismatch. You know, there's people that we wouldn't be friends with or date or be in relationships with for a multitude of reasons. And some of it could, you know, if there's a guy that's like,

that's just not how I operate and I don't really care about this girl enough to follow this boundary and I'm going to break up with her and find somebody else. You know, maybe you're just like, I don't know, this friend really doesn't ever want to go out and party and do drugs with me anymore. And that's what I'm looking for at this point in my life. So we're not going to be friends. Like, it can go the other way too. It doesn't, we always say, like, not of a relationship that you start is a lifelong one.

Friendships and relationships run their course. Obviously, it's a lot harder with family. I like something you said and just talking to them in the morning if there's an alcohol at hand and some of that just to me feels like don't take the bait, don't engage if you can avoid it. If you feel like someone's in danger,

don't ignore their call. That's a touchy, tricky subject. But like what I would try to say to friends that are in this situation is like, okay, so your parent, you know, they're sending you these crazy emails or these crazy texts or they're calling you after 9 p.m. You know, they've been drinking things like that.

I feel like the child gets so triggered. they like want it pick up or they want to engage or they get so emotional that they want to respond in that moment. And it's like maybe you work on internally just not engaging or taking the bait and then you wake up the next morning and it feels better. I don't know. I don't know if that's a permanent solution. But I think sometimes the person with the issue, if it is alcohol that we're saying, they know that they can get to you. So they're just going to keep doing it, right? Yeah.

It's just cycle. They have a reward system. You pick up. Right. Right. Right. Right. Why wouldn't they do it?

You pick up every time. Like there's, you know, there is no consequence. And there are consequences when people don't respect your boundary. If you say, okay, I'm not coming over your house anymore. That is a consequence or you can't come over my house or I can't talk to you after this time. If people aren't respecting your boundaries, it's natural to issue a consequence. When we drive and we speed, the consequence is a speeding ticket. Like, you don't just, if we could just speed, we would just do it.

Like, there are- The cops not, like, if you could respect the boundary of the speed limit, we would appreciate it. You get a ticket. You get a ticket. Consequences for not respecting people's boundaries. Again, the severe one is leaving the relationship. But there could be others. I will not go out with you.

You cannot call me after this time. If you do, I will not pick up. If you have an emergency, call this number, 911. one. Like, you know, there are things that we can do to feel safer, even in relationships that we're not ready to leave. Yeah. And I think not taking the bait is a great way. And some people might think that's passive aggressiveness. But my mom and I used to fight all the time, crazy fights. Like, we were together in a house for two days. We'd be screaming at each other like crazy. And now when I see her sort of getting a little agitated, I used to, well, I used to always need to prove that

she was wrong, that I was right, that she was wrong, that her point was stupid, that my point wasn't stupid. Now I don't take the bait, I see her getting a little bit angry, and instead of matching her aggression or anger, I just diffuse it. I'm like, you know, if that's how you want to be, and I mean, in a positive way, if that's how you want to live your life, that's how you want to pack the refrigerator, I don't need to come at you about this, and our relationship has been a lot better because of it, because I don't always have to, like, match her aggression, and I feel like she has seen that, like, I don't engage with her when she acts like that, and both of us of had a better relationship for it.

And that's a personal boundary. You agreeing to change the way that you operate. And we can't do that in relationships. It's like when people are like, we always argue, yes, and you can stop. And you can stop. You can't stop the other person, but most people won't yell at a wall. I'm no longer engaging. A lot of times, I was just talking to a friend about this.

I said, you know, I really don't like to argue about things I don't care. about and I see people do it a lot. They arguing about, you know, sports and one person don't even watch sports and they want to argue. It's like, what kind of time do you have? Some people have to argue. It's like, what are you? What a stressful life? What a chaotic life?

I'm like, you know, just some people just like to argue and it's like, you know, there are a lot of topics I just don't care about. Like if you say, Orange County is the best housewife. Okay, cool. Like, we don't have to argue about it. Like, I don't care. that reference. I just, I love that you said that because doesn't it feel so good to watch people get all heated and you don't give a fuck? You're like, I go off. I'm sitting back. I don't care.

It's a stressful life to feel the need to be always the contrary and always be right of an argument, like especially if it's not something you care about or have any knowledge in. I think that's just a funny thing. And when you stop doing it, you do feel, I felt so much better. I was like, if this is how you, this is what time you want to eat dinner, if this is how you expect me to live my life and I'm in your home, fine. What am I losing by like going along with that a little bit more? And you're right, she will not fight with a wall. And our relationship is better for it, you know? And now I'm just, I'm not angry all the time when I'm there. Yeah. It's like what is, what really matters. And there are a lot of things that will go back and forth with people about.

And it's like, yeah, I don't, I don't care what the best water bottle is. Like, I'm not having these disputes with people. So if you say, I think it's this, I think it's that. To me, it's done. If you want to keep going, I'm not in it. To say, if someone wants to say it's Desani, we are going to fight, and I will fight to the death. I actually do feel passionate about that. That's funny that you said that. You were like, that's a boundary, actually. Mender was like, that's a nothing thing. No one cares about. I'm over here. Like, that is my passionate. Actually, water bottles. When I get a Desani at Subway, because Subway only sells Desaani, I always text Ashley a photo. And I'm just like, listen, I'm just going to let you know, I did it.

No, we were at, my brother got married recently. We were all with a family stayed in a beach house and my aunt and uncle had to go out and get water bottles. And when they came in, I looked behind me and I saw the 24 pack of Desani and I go, Raina, oh my God. And she was like, what? I was like, you know what? And she was like, that you're crazy.

You know what they did. So you would prefer like CBS brand over Desani? It's spring water versus purified water. Oh, okay. Also, I spent 10 years in Atlanta where Tasani is based. I'm allowed to talk shit. I feel that they just took the Lake Lanier water and put some like purified tabs and I swear it tastes so bad to me. But I would never say anything.

Like, I just, I figured it out. I actually went across the street and got. Actually, like, I would never do this at this point about you are so grown up actually. But now you know, like anytime someone says, hey, we're going to get some waters, you probably need to say, please get spring water. Spring water. Yes, yes. That was on me. I didn't even actually can't expect people to be mind readers. Yeah. This is a boundary for her. Yeah. Pepsi. Is it Pepsi?

Desani's from Coke. Aquafina is Pepsi. Pepsi's company. I'm drinking smart water today. I know too much. I know too much. All right. Well, that's my biggest takeaway is when someone says I'm going to get water that I need to speak up and speak my truth. Well, do you have anything else to add? Anything else? We didn't cover that you wanted to? No, I think all of it is covered in the book. The biggest thing is I am on Instagram at Nadra Tawab, and I post a lot of mental health relationship content. It is a space that I consider home, and so I have boundaries in that space.

And so when people act up, I kick them out. So even on social media, we can have boundaries. We can block. We can mute. We can unfollow people when we are not energetically aligned, which is. such an important piece of social media boundaries. But I am in that space. I post a ton of helpful content. So please follow me there. I love that you said that. And I saw a lot of people and still sharing their boundaries on Instagram. I feel like this summer, I guess specifically

black women creators and educators who were getting flooded with so many new followers. And I just saw a lot of statements of drawing boundaries of like a lot of you were new here. This is how this we operate in this space and these are the boundaries. And I just, I respected that so much. I hadn't really seen it so much on Instagram probably until this summer. And I just had a lot of respect for it of like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I just got an influx of people you all are looking to me for these certain things. And here's what I do.

Here's where my coursework is that I've already done. You know, I think people were getting. A lot of messages probably asking for. information that's already out there. And I just, I love to see the drawing of the boundaries. Just because I'm a public person on the internet does not mean I'm just at your disposal. And so anyway, I like that you brought that up. Yeah. And I think, you know, for one second on social media, it's important that you manage your space and how you want people to engage. If you want people to be kind, you do have to remove those comments that are unkind. You have to make. You have to

it the space that you want it to be. And so it is really important to let people know this is how we operate in this community. This is what you can expect for me. I don't answer every single message or whatever your things are letting people know that. And so you're not so bombarded with community requests. Yeah. All right. If people want your books, set boundaries, find peace.

It's available everywhere that the New York Times bestseller books are available. Yeah, and follow you and everyone will. So get ready. And guys, you better follow her boundaries because don't be acting up on the Instagram. Thank you so much. It was really such a pleasure and so insightful speaking to you. This was so great. This was so fun.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Okay. Bye. Bye. And you guys know where to find us. Girls Gotta Eat Podcast.com. Girls got to eat podcast on Instagram.

Ash Hess, reina. at Greenberg at Instagram, Girls underscore Gotta Eat on Twitter and YouTube.com slash Girls Gotta Eat. And we will see you next week. Thanks, guys. Have a good week.

Bye.