Girls Gotta Eat - Talking About Abortion with Dr. Meera Shah

Episode Date: August 10, 2020

On this episode, we're discussing abortion with Dr. Meera Shah, a family medicine physician who provides abortion care and the recent author of You're the Only One I've Told: The Stories Behind Abortion (September 1 release). Meera provides us with information and facts regarding the abortion process and how it varies from state to state, and we discuss stigmas surrounding this area of reproductive health, why some women choose not to share their stories, barriers to access and marginalized groups that are affected the most, abortion rights and the political climate, and more. While we express our pro-choice stance, this episode is based on factual information and does not criticize those with pro-life beliefs. Before we bring in our guest, we're discussing (and spilling some tea on) a former guest who's been at the top of the pop culture headlines lately, Dale Moss, giving a Brennan update, sharing some listeners' sex tips, and Ashley threatens to FaceTime Rayna's man-who's-not-her-man to have a word. Hope you enjoy! Go to YoureTheOnlyOneIveTold.com for more info on Dr. Meera Shah and to pre-order the book. Follow us on Instagram @GirlsGottaEatPodcast, Rayna @Rayna.Greenberg, and Ashley @AshHess. Check out our website for merchandise and tour info. Thank you to our partners for this episode: Buffy: For $20 off all Buffy bedding, visit buffy.co and enter code GGE. Tushy: Go to hellotushy.com/gge for 10% off your order. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What I also found was that when an individual shared their story with me, afterwards, many people would say, wow, like, you're the only one I've told, or I haven't told many people this. And it felt really nice to share that. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat. Welcome back and fuck you, Brennan. We're not going to say that anymore. You guys bombed us with these mail emails.

No, they validated us. There was four emails that said, cool Brennan. No, you didn't read deep enough. You did not, I read everyone. You caught me. we re-listen to an old episode recently, and we'll get to why. Spoiler alert, it's Dale Moss. Dale Moss is in the news, and he's a former guest.

We're going to spill all the tea we have on Dale coming in hot. But in that episode, your dad came up. You said something about your dad, and I go, oh, my God, this is the first time we brought up your dad in that episode. Because we always used to talk about your mom. Oh, yeah, because she was like to start the podcast. For me to listen to that and say, oh, my God, we never talk about your dad when literally all we've done recently is talk about your dad. It was a very funny thing to hear.

I remember that episode so well because I was like, oh, I have a dad. Like, surprised I have a dad. Because my mom was like the third host of this podcast. And then also like it was like I never had a mom again. We never talked about my mom ever again. All right, guys, really quick. Up top, we just want to say this episode is about abortion. We just want to let you know that it is a episode filled with a lot of factual information, statistics.

We have a doctor. She is a new author named Mara Shaw. and we stuck to a lot of the facts. We talk about some things politically, but it's really more of discussing abortion as opposed to a lot of emotion and opinion surrounding it. So I think you guys know where we stand and we'll dive into this further during the interview.

You know that we are pro-choice, but we can certainly respect a difference in opinion, especially when it comes to a woman and how she feels about her own body. What we are not okay with is obviously when someone forces their belief system on others and it impacts them in a negative way for choices that they should.

should be able to make on their own. You guys know what we mean. But I just wanted to say that if you are someone who believes life begins at conception, I don't want you to worry that we are going to criticize that belief in this episode. You wrap that up, a nice little bow. Thanks. You guys know that on this podcast, we just want to be supportive of most of your lifestyle choices. And this one, obviously, it's a sensitive subject. And I'm really proud of this interview because I think we really did take a lot of our emotions and opinion out of it. It's a lot of straightforward facts. And she's so great, this doctor. And of course, Ashley and I are pro-choice and pro whatever you guys want to do with your own bodies and not judging what other people do with their bodies. And we will talk

for this later, but we have not had abortions. So we're not discussing an experience that her and I had. So I was excited to have a doctor to discuss that on the show. Yeah. So anyway, just got to let you know up top if it's a topic you don't want to hear about right now. I encourage you to listen to the intro because it's going to be a hot one. But, you know, always just got to let you guys know. also I'm a doctor now. You know, like I'm a brain doctor. Yeah, you're neurologist. People were really into that, Dr. Greenberg.

Yeah. I talked about the hippocampus last week. Yeah, you know. And all those, I don't remember any other words I said. Frontal lobe. Amygdala. Amygdala. Amygdala is my personal faith.

What's your fave? Sarah Bellum. No, you're hippocampus. You have put that word so hard. Hippocampus. And when it gets to the hippocampus. When you're in trouble. I want to tell you something funny that just

happened. So we got a little bit of a late start today because, as you guys know, I use the Peloton in my building, and I usually nobody's on it. I usually go down there, the bike is open, and I just hop right on. I go down there today. I was going to start my workout at two, and this guy is on it. And I was like, oh, what the fuck? So I walked in there and I was going to try to, you know, from a distance kind of get a vibe for how long of a workout he was doing, so I know when I could come back. When you said get a vibe for how long, that is not where I thought this sentence was going. So hear me out. What's flopping? around in those jeans shorts.

Yeah. In those. Gene shorts. That's how often I work out. I'm like those gene shorts. Yeah. So I, but I realize that he's attractive. So I got to, I opened the door and I was like, hey, do you?

And he knew exactly what I wanted to know because I had my cycling shoes in my hand. And he was like, I'm only doing 20 minutes. And I was like, okay. So I'm like, I'll come back. I'll come back. That's amazing. So I was like, I'll come back at 225, whatever. And I'm like, who is that dude?

Like, I'd never seen him before. He wasn't the guy that I like. in your building. No. I got worried. It was him. No, no, no. Maybe he lives in the South Tower.

I'm not sure. I've never seen him before. And I was like, huh, but I couldn't get a vibe for really his stature, which is important to me as a tall woman. So when I went back down at 225 to get on the bike, he was gone. Okay. But his bike setting. Told you how tall he was.

So I ride at 26. Okay. His was at a 19. No. Which is not that huge of a difference. Also, you should explain you what that means. Like the seat height. I just know that 26 is bigger than 19.

So this seat height, right? So I have very long legs because I'm a tall person, but I just feel like I can't. You're not tall for a man. I can't take 19. Everybody listening to this is laughing because they know what you mean.

Not laughing because I'm like, I don't know what that means. But he sounds little. But I mean, he could have a long torso and shorter legs, which I don't know if I want any part of that either. You know me, I like a long-legged man. You know, I only watch Andrew Schultz's videos to look at those ankles. That is a man with some long ass loaves.

I love his long legs and his big hands. Anyway, we know a lot of you guys aren't fans. It's fine. I like his body type. And I had this moment of like, I am really out here investigating the height of his pelotency to see if he is height appropriate for me.

This is important information. And it's like I would go on LinkedIn to research if a guy really had a job, he told me. So like, of course you're looking at like the lowest hanging fruit to find out how tall he is. You're a tall person. And then guess what else I did? I forgot a hair tie.

I was already clipped in. So I'm clipped in the bike. What does that mean? Like my shoes were already in there. Okay. I forgot a hair tie. I used my mask and tied it around my hair. Which I've done that before.

I've done that before. I have used the mask to tie my hair up. This is not weird. I understand this. This is not weird. It was one of our special masks that we got from Jill Zarin and Ali Shapiro. They sell mask. Check them out.

Go to Jill Zarin's shop. It worked really well. I just used the loops and like made it didn't work really well. It worked. my hair was greasy enough to hold itself up. I did walk in here and you were showering. Cleaning that be whole. I have to tell you a tip, a tip that a listener emailed us.

I was very excited. I asked you to please not read this email. Okay. All right. The title of this email is Good Tip for Girls I had to share. It was really short. We love your short emails. Please continue to submit short emails. Okay.

I don't know if you're going to see this, but I had a good tip for girls. I told my dumb-ass boyfriend in the, they've been there for four years, my dumb-ass boyfriend. Amazing. In the beginning of our relationship that a girl is more likely to get pregnant if she doesn't come.

So like if she doesn't get off, she might get pregnant. I made something up like, yeah, when I come, your come can't go up. I'm on birth control and we are completely safe. My boyfriend has been pretty motivated to make me come for the last four years now and he still believes this.

If she doesn't come, she's more likely that they'll get pregnant. So she told him this so he works harder to make her come. Yes, because like the muscles in your body that contract when you come, make it so that you can't get pregnant. That's what she told him. That's what she told him. That's not true, guys.

That's not true at all. That's a crazy thing. And the internet exists. That is so funny. And like, you know, but like, you know you could tell like a 21-year-old boy this and they would believe you. A hundred percent. I mean, you can probably tell like a 41-year-old man that was saying.

You probably believe you. I just think this is so funny. And I could see that she just told this, like, dumb 21-year-old, her dumb-ass boyfriend. And he was like, I don't want to get her pregnant. I got to make her come. But doesn't it? Like, I can see that making sense to some people. Yeah.

Okay. I love it. I was proud of her. You said listener email, and I just got to bring this one up because I wanted to also kind of offer a low-key apology about this. We got an email from a listener subject line, Buzz Buzz Buzz Balls. She said, I have a very important follow question regarding the episode with Beatrice Dixon. A few weeks ago in the episode,

In the episode, she talks about but like fluttering your lips on a guy's balls. Okay. Which we all said we were going to go home. We all said we were going to try. I haven't had a ball sack in my face since that episode. Hear me out. Okay. She said, my boyfriend of two years is pretty willing to try anything. I told him about this when he was excited, blah, blah, blah.

When I went to lip flutter, my lips just stopped. Which when you think about it, go ahead and try it right now. Flutter your lips and put the back of your hand to it, they just stop immediately. So the second you touch your lips, you stop fluttering them. Okay, so how does that work? So she goes, so anyway, after being stopped out of my tracks, I still have my lips partly open from the attempted flutter, and now I'm more so just blowing hot air on my boyfriend's ball sack.

Yum. Have either of you tried this yet? What am I doing wrong? L.O.L. Thank you. And I love you. We gave you bad advice. I didn't think of it logistically. And no, you can't flutter your lips on a pair of balls. Okay, I do have a tip, but it would never work.

Okay, all services would have to be totally dry. If there's no moisture, I can see it not. Because your balls are not like your hand. Like they will sort of move. It's a sack. It's a hanging sack. But like your balls have to be not sweaty and your lips have to be not moist. And neither of those things are happening when you're like aroused.

But even like like try to even put your finger in your mouth and flutter your lips. You can't. You can't do it. If anything is in, if anything's touching. I can't do it. I have to try. Yeah. So we were, I wanted to apologize for any of you guys that were fluttering your lips on your boyfriend's balls.

We gave you bad. advice. In our defense, we didn't say we'd ever done it. And also, it probably, I mean Beatrice. It probably gave you guys something fun to talk about with your boyfriend. But can you imagine, when she said now I'm more so just blowing hot air on my boyfriend's ball sack, I lost it. Do you think after my dad listened to that episode, he asked his wife to do it? I actually can't believe we didn't hear about this from Bill first. I know that I gave him bad sex advice. He has been in like a tremendously good mood. Buzz Buzz Buzz, Bill's balls. Yeah, I just think who like Bill's getting his balls buzzed.

In other words, hot air blowing on them. Listen, he's in Texas. There's not much else to do there right now, okay? He's old. He can't go outside. Right. I support him getting his balls. I'm down a road.

I don't want to be down. Let's just, you know what? Anyway, we want to do apologize to you guys? And while we're talking about the listeners, do you want to do our Brennan update? Yeah. So never in the history of the podcast have we mentioned a name on the show

and gotten so many emails talking about that person's name. I will say no one's going to defend a Kyle or a Chad because I think that like traditionally historically those guys are terrible and I don't think anybody has any stories that would like surprise or shock anybody. Brennan is like a really shocking one and we got tagged in a bunch of Instagram stories about Brennan. About Brennan.

She had a cute. So cute. If you guys aren't familiar, we hope that you're listening to every episode but just in case you're not, whatever. Last week we read this email from a listener and by the way you guys love that episode. Thank you so much.

She really went crazy for the episode titled, Your Man Who's Not Your Man? And a listener ended an email with saying, Fuck you, Brennan. And it really caught on. I personally love it because of stepbrothers. Can't recommend that movie enough. You know, it's old.

And I also forgot about the line, Brennan has a mangyna. Remember they all are chanting it? Well, didn't Jenny Jones? She's the one who said it. But I want to read my favorite Brennan email. Dearest Ashley and Raina, I've only ever known one Brennan.

I assure you he was not cool. We met at summer camp where one day, while in the sauna, he asked a small group of us if we had ever heard of the dark web. A couple years later, he was arrested for attempting to import illegal weapons and building pipe bombs in his basement. I've attached the news article for my receipt. First of all, love anybody that sends a receipt. I think this girl is so smart. What? Who is out here building pipe bombs?

The next one, she said her ex, Brennan, was okay. Except he did get upset when anyone brought up. stepbrothers and said he had a mangina also. So he was a tourist man and it showed. But other than that, he was a good Brennan. And then this one, she said he wore a back brace on the outside of his clothes. And then, oh, he should look up knee brace guy. You think that it was for, 100%.

You think it was for fashion or for function? I wonder if knee brace guy is named Brennan. And then one girl has a sister named Brennan, which I like the name for a girl. Love it. Of course, as always. and then the last good one was just wanted to let you know that the only Brennan I know

is a hardcore Trump supporter. So that's the Brennan Update. It's a great brand update. You guys really flooded the emails and the DMs to just give us Brennan updates. Thank you so much. Yeah. We have an update on something.

Our March? We didn't forget. We didn't talk about it. Do you want to talk about our stuff? Yeah, let's talk about our stuff. We have all new stuff. We did a whole new brand glow up and we have Gets.

You guys use like crazy on the, my favorite, okay, I think we're going to have the same favorite gift. My favorite gift is your leg spreading up and down and up and down. You guys, that's not you know rain is a true friend. What? You just like, my favorite gift is you? Yes. Like you are, you're not being competitive with me about your gifts versus my gifts.

There is a clear favorite. It is clearly the favorite. And we didn't think we were going to get to use that one because it like came out a little blurry the first time. So I didn't know we're going to be able to use it. It's just, it's the best gift. It works so well for everything. Yes, we love the website.

Thank you guys for going and checking it on a desktop. Like we asked you too, that was so sweet. The merch, we had a few glitches. It was not our fault at all. Factors completely out of our control. And if you thought you were pissed, you couldn't buy merch, I guarantee you we were more pissed. We do have new merch.

We have robes. We have sleep masks. We have bomber jackets, tank tops, t-shirts. We have all kinds of really cool new stuff. We have a wine glass set that says the Ashley to my Raina and the rate of my Ashley. We should do Dewey March. He's just gave me a sad eye. I was like, why don't we have doing it?

He's like making noises. He's hungry. But we'll do Dewey March. We really do want to get on some since March, March. So we still have more coming. We're working on it. What were you going to say that you have an update on? I have an update on.

Well, the world has an update on it. And then I want you to give us some information about it. So the world found out that the newest bachelor at Claire Crawley, who is also the oldest bachelorette. She has since dropped out of the show because she has fallen in love with our former guest and Ashley's ex, Dale Moss. Oh, shut up. You know what? Ashley's former boyfriend, Dale Moss.

My former man who was never my man. He's your man who's not your man. He was one of our first guests. He walked into the interview and I was like, I took with a breath out of my lungs. He's so beautiful. Like I hadn't fully prepared you. Like, you know there's just some people you look at and you're like,

oh, you're supposed to be a model. Like God put you on this earth to be a model. So Ashley started dating him. Oh my God, shut up. At that point, we had broken up. No, but then you guys went out again. We'll get to it. But we used to have this thing where we didn't know each other that well

at the beginning of the podcast. And we were like, okay, like which one of us is going to fuck which guest? And so like that was, you were the clear frontrunner on that. Yeah. So I would just like to share my story about Dale because he's in the news right now. And we encourage you guys to go back and listen to the episode. Summer 2018, it's called Still Not a Player. Great episode.

He's a great guy. I have nothing but good things to say. My history with Dale was that we met at an event. one night. Of course, I've spotted him, most beautiful man in the room. You know, he's tall. You guys know he played NFL football. He's a model. And we really, like, okay, you know I'm so confident, like, probably more so. Like, I have like reverse body dysmorphia. But I still just wouldn't think a guy like that would be interested in me. And I'm also not saying that he was. But you see somebody like that and you're like, we'll probably just be friends. You know what I mean?

That's how I feel by your friend trouble. I mean, you see him and you're like, I'm actually ultra confident around people like that because I'm like they would never date. So I don't totally even like put on a charade because I'm like, oh, you're not fucking me. Right. So also I'm never really seeking out the hottest guy in the room ever.

Funniest, yes. But it's just not what I'm looking for. So we actually really, we met, we were introduced by a friend of ours named Pavon. And we sat down at the bar and we like shut the boy, shut it down. We just kept drinking margaritas.

We ordered food. We had like a night where we like really got to know each other probably for a couple hours. And I was like this guy. so wonderful. And then he was like, hey, do you want to go to this event with me next week? And I'm like, sure. I'm sure I'm going to go to this event with you, Dale. Would you wear the event? We'll get there. Yes. And we alluded to this on the episode, but we never really dove deep into like any sort of thing that he and I had, which was not a thing. It was a thing that wasn't a thing.

So he invited me to this premiere, this movie premiere event that was at Tao downtown. And then I just was like, I bet. And then forgot about it. Day of the event, I was out. We had recorded and I went to meet my friend Raquel, who also owned Sweet Beach in Atlanta. She was in town for the Metball, casual. We had drinks. And he's like, hey, are you still coming to the event? And I was like, oh, my God. I was wearing a crop jean, like, nothing fancy.

I had a backpack. You were wearing high waters and you had a backpack. I had a backpack. And so I was like, oh, my God, yeah, of course I'm going to go meet this guy. So I get there, the girls that checked me in looked me up and down. And I was like, hey, can I put my backpack in a way? And then when I told them I was Dale's guest, they were like, you? Like, I can look so great.

It just wasn't one of those nights. Also, Tao is not a place to not look like. Okay, I interviewed a Tao. Movie premiere, event at Tao. I'm going to tell you about Tao. I interviewed a Tao like 10 years ago to be a restaurant manager or something. And I was talking to them and they were like, okay, so one of our things here is that we actually, even if your table's ready, we make you wait an hour in the bar. And I was like, why?

And they were like, it just makes people want it more. Right. Like, that's the kind of place Tao is. Like holding the line outside of club when you really don't even need to give it the allure. that like that's the place to be. Yeah. So we can't bring backpacks there. These girls were like, I was like, I'm Dale Moss's plus one.

And they were like, I bet you are, sweetie. Also, can you store my backpack? I cannot. It was to me though, so it's fine. So I feel so underdressed. I really felt kind of, I did feel a little self-conscious. To be wearing jeans and like just a black cap sleeve body suit and all these people are super dressed up.

Yeah, at a booge fest in the fashion capital of the United States. So we like joked about it and stuff. But like, I thought maybe he had other people with him. Like, no, it was just me and him. Like, it was just us. And like we, it felt dady at points. But again, I still really don't think that it was. And we joked about this on our episode with him.

So, you know, you can listen back. You decided for yourselves. But I do remember we went into this other kind of separate room. They had a bunch of sushi out. We were there kind of just off to ourselves sitting on like a couch having drinks, eating in sushi. And like really talked for an hour or two just one on one. And like we were talking about family stuff and opening up about some deeper topics.

and he really is such a genuinely kind person. And when you talk to him, he's so engaging. He listens. He looks to you in the eye. He looks into your soul. I say this to tell you that I don't know Claire Crawley. I don't know what she's like as a person, but I know Dale.

And for somebody on The Bachelorette that meets a lot of guys that probably skew a little narcissist, that probably are just out for fame, if you meet him and you connect with him because of who he is as a person and how he makes you feel when you talk to him, like I can 100% get how she fell in love with him.

You really sound like you're over the breakup. Oh my God! I hate you. I am telling the listeners, my experience, I definitely didn't fall for him. We walked out that night. We did Instagram story. I didn't even go home and, like, think about it anymore.

I was like, you know, masturbate at all to it. I just felt like I still, even to connect on that level, I still felt like it was a friend vibe. Yeah. I promise. I'm just joking. Dale, and I co-send everything actually said.

I think that he is really. really one of the sweetest men that we've ever had on the podcast. He won't say a bad word about anybody. His eyes are so beautiful. I go swimming in them. He is a wonderful person to be around. And I would watch those two fuck because he is beautiful. Yeah.

I also texted him. I got a little update for us. Get the fuck out. I can you just turn my phone. Oh my God. I'm so excited. Yeah. I checked in with him the other day.

I said, I said, hey, our DMs are blowing up about you, smiley face, hope all is well and excited. to see you on TV soon. I wanted him to know that I wasn't digging for information. Like that's not, he's not going to give it to me and I want to like respect that obviously. Well, I want him to give it to you. I'm glad you dug for me. He said, hey, hey, lots of rumors out there, but should be an interesting season. Hope you're doing well. I had people hitting me up like crazy about the podcast last few days once I got my phone back because you know you can't have

your phone. Of course you guys were fucking in those DMs. You little sluts. I love you little sluts. I love you guys. Every man that we have on the show, you guys slide in. So go listen to the episode. We're obviously tuned into the season. And then did you even mention that basically Claire quit and then they're bringing in Tasia to replace her midseason, which is unprecedented. I would know I've seen every season. This has not happened before. I mean, you know, I only watched Jared Freed's Recaps The Bachelor. Raina just started watching The Bachelor when Jared started live screaming. It's all I do. I actually, I sent Ashley Sean Lowe last week and she was like, that's not news because he's 14 kids with the person he married from the Bachelor at this point. So

can you guys please post? a story of Raina and Sean Lowe and do the hot take gif over it. It's like, it's like Launderette's view. I was like setting actually all of his Instagram story posts and she's like, yeah, I've seen this before. So this is not a hot take. This is unprecedented gossip. I love this.

I am living for this. And then I didn't watch it, but I saw the chicks in the office who we love and we've been on their podcast. They had Nick Viallon and he was like, this could all be like producers. You never know. The bachelor people are like the best of what they do. Yes, absolutely. the only people that work harder than Chris Jenner, in my opinion.

But this is going to be crazy. Like, if her and Dale fall in love, then they leave right off into the sunset and then Tasha just comes in. And I'm assuming and then has the same guys. Like they're not recasting. Like she's just going to, they're just going to like fucking flip-flop it. I mean, those guys are just there for Instagram followers. So they don't care who's on the show to get the Instagram followers for them.

Do you think Tasia's going to be like, I want to Dale? Yeah. I think everyone on earth would get there and be like, I wanted Dale. The hottest man on earth. Dale is one of the best looking men I've ever shared breathing air with. Sounds like you're not over it. Can you see the headline now? Pathetic Girls Got to Eat co-hosts in love with Dale Maugh.

No one would write about us. And I love it because, I mean, God, if I would have known Dale was in an older, women. I would have tried to hit it harder. I wish you would have had sex with Tomaz. I wish one of us would have had sex with Dalmas. I'd still do it too. He just wasn't in like, he just wasn't like in the right headspace for a girlfriend when we met. You know what I mean? Because you were wearing a backpack. Guys, ever fucked the girl with a backpack. Bitch, I put the backpack down before I even saw him. It was in the color of the towel. You shut out with the big backpack energy. He could smell it on your body. One of the hostess is a towel slid to his

DMs. I was like, hey, you don't know me with a girl that just showed up for you at a backpack. Right. Like one of those, one of those like PR interns who checked me in was like, oh, fuck, no. That girl's not going to get with Dale Moss. I'm going to alerting him about the backpack immediately.

And what are her jeans? She's like, you don't know me, but this girl's bad for your image. They were like a strong mom, Jean. I know the gene. Yeah, I know.

Oh my gosh. Okay. Dale T. Brennan Update. We had puppies named after us. Ashley continuously sent this to me and I paid no attention. And then I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was dogs named Raina. And you were like, yeah, I've been sending you this stuff. You'd be getting tagged in. I'd be DM you would text

you. And then I like really dove in. I was like, oh my God, there's like a dog named Rayna. They named dogs after us. So Muddy Paw's Rescue. Don't DM them. They're full. I met this girl named Julie one time at a rescue event. And she is a follower of girls got to eat. she approached me and was like, I love the podcast. And we, there was like a dog that day that looked like Dewey, so we were like bonding over that. And she messaged me and was like, we got three new puppies in, or they're on the way. They rescued them from somewhere in the south, I think. And she said, we're naming them Ashley, Raina and Merrill. And then she sent three photos. And I was like, can I just know which is which? Because like, Merrill wasn't as cute.

What I had, I would have had to know. Ashley and Rainer were the cutest. Yeah, the cutest. Yeah. Sorry, Merrill. You're not the host of the show. Right. I feel like Julie knew that. Like, you're not going to make whatever. All puppies are cute. All babies are beautiful. No, they're not.

Like, you just give you the ugliest one, the sidekick naked. Right, and Meryl was fine with that. Yeah, Maril doesn't care. But then... Merrill was just happy to be there. I noticed that the P... Then they're fostered for a couple weeks. And I noticed that Rana's foster parents are posting about her and Instagram,

Ashley is nowhere to be found. So, you see it, Raina, you scoop her up. So I messed. Not men. The comments are so funny, baby Raina. Baby Raina is adjusting. And so I messaged Julie. I'm like, hey, I noticed Raina's foster has been posting.

And I was just wondering, what's going on with Ashley? Nothing gets by you. You couldn't just like enjoy your weekend. You had to check it with this shelter and be like, why is the Raina dog doing better than mine? No, I just wanted to see her. I mean, I feel so honored to have these puppies named after us. So I still haven't gotten an update, but I'm sure she's doing fine. All I can think about it all week was like, what if you showed up at someone's house?

And they were like, hi, my name is Raina. And they'd be like, oh, my God, what's your dog's name? And you're like, Raina. Like, that would be a crazy thing of someone named their dog after themselves. Totally. But now I'm going to. We know that you guys like wrecks from us every week. I don't have like a crazy amount of wrecks.

I am fully committed to watching love on the spectrum next week. Okay. Because Dylan said it's, God damn it. Dillin gets more fucking airtime on this podcast than I do. He said it's so sweet and wonderful and beautiful and sincere. He said, dude, bro, you have to watch it. So I'm committed to that for next week. Do you want to commit to that?

Well, so we're recording this on August 6th, August 7th tomorrow, selling sunset. I'm going to have to review that. That takes precedence. Well, we're going to get there. Both. Okay. What I watched last night, though, I watched Last Chance You, which I know you love. Yeah.

I watched the fifth season of it last night. The latest season. Yeah. They're in Oakland. Yeah. Wow, you're so up to date on Last Chance You. I've watched a few. I didn't know it was five seasons. I thought it was a one season docu series. I threw it on last night. I was like, oh, really? But I love, if you guys want to watch like a sports doc, it's really moving. It's with all these like underprivileged kids and, you know, their stories and they're playing college football. And I loved it. The first two, I think, are at the same school. And then the, I forget the third season, the fourth season. I didn't love. And then that coach actually got in trouble. I didn't love his energy. And then this, this season five is good. I like it. I'm fine. I. I, I, I, I, I,

I used to like sports stuff a lot more. I find myself just liking it a little less. Like, I don't know. I think your taste change. Yeah. I just... Well, so I feel like we got inundated with all the 30 for 30 stuff.

I've watched all of that. I've watched schooled. I've watched like a million sports document. Yeah. And I also last week watched the last dance, which I thought was Save the Last Dance. I was calling it Save the Last Dance to a lot of people. They thought I was talking about the dance movie.

But I watched the last dance with Michael Jordan. I just watched the first three episodes. But it was very good. Very well then. Those are two good ones. Yeah. And, but yeah, last chance you. Kate and I talk about that one a lot.

That's one of her favorites. I will say, like, cheer is a similar vibe. It's like a last chance place. You know what I mean? Like, it's kind of like the people that had to leave other colleges and universities for various reasons or they have more troubled at home. They go to these places. So cheers, the cheerleading of last chance you.

And I just liked it more. You did. I don't know. I don't know what it is. I used to watch so many sports stuff, like, with an ex of mine. And I, you ever look back and you wonder, did I like? them or did I like watching him? No. I genuinely enjoyed watching sports stuff with him when we were in a relationship. I wasn't pretending. But then I feel like, do you ever look back and you're like,

was it just that we were sharing something together that on my own I actually don't enjoy that much? Yeah, I feel like I enjoy certain people's commentary about stuff or enjoy knowing we're going to fuck when this is over. Yeah. And like I'm doing it to make them happy. Like I genuinely enjoyed watching Last Chance of You season one or season two or both. I forget, like, with him. And I am like, I don't know. I don't know if this is for me anymore. Anyway, just something to resonate on. I was thinking, yeah, marinate, not resonate. I was just been thinking about that recently, like the stuff you do with partners that you think you like and you think you would do alone after the relationship ends, but you really don't like it. Have you ever

camped with anybody? No, but I actually, somebody that I dated in the fall called me to, you know, ruin my life this weekend, because, you know, he smelled that I was over him. I'll tell you what. You sent me the wrong screenshot because it had his phone number listed and I'm about to call him myself. I have some words for him. I hate him and he doesn't have a family. Yeah. Per usual, he sniffed out that I was enjoying my life and hadn't thought about him in a really

long time and he said to sweep in and have it to our phone call with me. And I let him know that you can't go camping because you'll get murdered because I listen to Park predators. So many you tagged me in that. I don't want to hype another podcast as hard, but like, whatever. It just proves my point that like you'll get serial killed if you go camping. And then he said to me, if we end up together, you'll go camping with me. And I was like, end up together. You would call me in three months. Blocked. Rayna, that should have been your sign from the gods. This guy's like, I'll make you camp with me. Blocked. That should, you should have known in that moment. I'm sick of him coming in out of your life. I'm texting him. Actually, no, I'm

facetiming him. I want him to see this face when I tell him to leave you the fuck alone or I'm going to sue him. For something. For emotional distress. What if you like stole my phone while I was going to the bathroom and you FaceTimed him and he thought he could have like some sexy talk with me and your face appeared on the screen? Listen up, motherfucker. He needs to apologize to me. Oh man. We have a very, uh, a very big. very special guests for you guys. We are so excited to have her on the show today. She is a family physician and the chief medical officer of Planned Parenthood Hudson Pasonic. Is that how I said? Hudson, Pecon. I almost got there. In New York, she's also a fellow with the physicians for

reproductive health. She graduated from UNC and received her medical degree from GW and has a double master's from Columbia. Okay, show off. And she is the author of the upcoming book. You're the only one I've told the stories behind abortion. please welcome to the show, Mira Shaw. Hey, guys. Thank you so much for having me. Hi, thank you for being here. So I'm obsessed with your book. I am reading it. I haven't finished it.

And just up top, I have to say, like, I'm just so floored and impressed by it. And I want everyone to buy it. It's so incredible. Just like the introduction alone, which we'll get into some of those topics. And then obviously the stories, it's just so, so great. I was, Raina is reading after me. We only got one advanced copies. That's why she isn't read yet.

but I was telling her the story that you open with, like the story about being in Target. This isn't a spoiler, guys. It's the very beginning of the book. And we like, I teared, I, well,

I teared up when I read it. And then I teared up again, recounting it to Raina. And then she teared up and it's just like, it's just so beautiful. So we're, we're really happy to have you here to talk about that. We haven't really talked about abortion in depth.

And so we're really excited to have a woman and a doctor to talk about that. And you are good friends with our good friend, Meryl. That's how we know you. Yes, yes. She definitely connected us. Thank you, Merrill. Shout out to Merrill. And I'm so glad to be on your show. I think this is, I know, this is an incredibly important topic. And especially with the upcoming election, it's really important that we talk about abortion and dispel all of the myths. And it's commonly misunderstood. And, you know, I want to talk about it and provide all the most accurate information. So thanks for bringing me on the show. yeah of course yeah well I would love to hear from you and Ashley and all of our listeners

a little bit more about you and just how you got into this line of work why you picked this field and yeah if you could talk a little bit more about that we would love that yeah so um you know I am the daughter of Indian immigrants so I'd be lying if I said that you know becoming a doctor's lawyer engineer wasn't part of my DNA um honestly guys I was forced into this that's my truth I mean, it is, it is, you know, part of our upbringing that, you know, you must have a graduate degree, blah, blah, blah. A couple. No, you were a couple. You were a 17 of them, so Ivy League hit it out of the park.

But, you know, I did have that example in my family. My father's a physician, my brother's a physician. And so that's sort of where it began. But I also, ever since I was little, I've had a strong sense of social justice. And it wasn't really until residency that I had a mentor. who introduced reproductive justice to me. And she, Linda Prine is her name. She's also in the book, made abortion so normal.

And she is really the one who taught all of the residents that there are so much, there's so much shame and stigma around this issue. But it is life-saving, it is critical, and it is just normal. and one out of four women has an abortion in her lifetime. And, you know, as a family physician, abortion should be presented as just a very normal option for patients to access and to have in the same way that continuing a pregnancy is immediately met with compassion and understanding and oftentimes enthusiasm, right? So abortion is just the natural normal part of somebody's reproductive life. lifespan. And then, you know, when I trained in abortion care and started providing abortion care, I very quickly realized that there's, there's so many policies that limit our ability to practice

abortion care. I live and I work in New York, but I've also provided abortion care in Indiana in Texas. And I've seen before my eyes the difficulty in which patients have to go in order to get just basic health care. And there is no other procedure or service in health care that has been as politicized as abortion. And, you know, we can get into why that is and sort of the history behind that, because it is just really easy for politicians to use social justice issues such as gay marriage, judges, you know, gun violence, such as abortion for their own political gain. It's awful. It's terrible. It's, you know, a human rights violation. But, they do it anyways and and and it works for them but at the end result is that it hurts people and we can

talk about that more good we're going to talk to you about you know the shame around it and how this has been politicized and you know just Ashley and I talked up top but you know we haven't had abortion so I don't even know how like I don't know what that looks like medically so we would love to sort of unpack that with you just to begin with for someone who's never had one yeah or might be thinking about it I have no idea what it looks like yeah so I mean I think it is good to start with the basics. I can ask this question a lot. So there are a couple ways to have an abortion. So the actual medical definition of an abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. So it can be an induced abortion or it can be a spontaneous abortion. So a spontaneous

abortion is another way to say miscarriage. An induced abortion can happen with a procedure or with medicines. So a procedural abortion is where the patient comes to a health center, lays on a table and it puts their legs in a leg rest or a footrest. And we use a speculum, the same device that's used when an individual has a pap test. So we use a speculum to visualize the cervix. So then the cervix is dilated with these metal dilators that gradually increase in size. And we dilate the cervix based on how far or how pregnant the the individual is. After, we insert a little cannula that's like the size of a straw into the cervix and then into the uterus. And we apply like a suction on the other end to then remove the

contents of the uterus. In other words, to remove the pregnancy. The whole process takes less than two minutes. It's really quick. There's different levels of what we call sedation that a person can receive. A patient can have just local sedation, which, is just a little bit of lytocane or numbing medication around the cervix, or they can receive medication through their IV, fentanyl, which is a narcotic, and Versed, which is like Xanax. It's in the same family of medications. And that just sort of, they're like awake, but a little groggy, you know, the medicines take the edge off. Is it really painful? So what I do tell patients is that they will feel cramping, but it's literally less than two minutes. And I tell them that it's,

you know, nothing they can't handle. And most my patients do just fine. More or less painful than an IUD. Yeah, it's similar. Okay. I have not had one, but I've just heard, you know, of course, it's manageable. You know, well, the women that I've known that have gotten IUDs have gotten through it, but they mentioned cramping.

And I was wondering if it was a similar sensation. It's similar sensation because any time you stretch the cervix, that triggers the pain. It triggers cramping. and like it's like when somebody goes into labor, their cervix is dilating, and that's why they're feeling so much pain. So, you know, I always tell patients,

like if you saw what I was doing on my end, you would actually probably be shocked that what I'm doing is causing so much of a pain sensation. But yeah, it's a very quick procedure, I'm very safe. It has a less than 0.5% complication rate. Okay, it is one of the safest medical procedures that we do in medicine.

So the other way of having an abortion is with medications. It's called a medication abortion. It involves two pills. So the first pill is called Miffie Prestone. Miffy Prestone was FDA approved in 2000, and it ends the pregnancy. Then the second set of pills are taken at home, and the patient will either insert them in the vagina

or put them between the cheeks, let the pills dissolve and then, you know, after about 30 minutes, swallow those pills. And those pills called misoprostol will induce cramping and bleeding and expulsion of the pregnancy. So it's almost like causing a miscarriage at home. Is that safe? It's incredibly safe. Has, you know, a similar safety profile as the procedural abortion. Now, a lot of people ask me, like, you know, Dr. Scha, what's better?

what should I do? And I say, well, let's talk about what's important to you. Is it important to you to be able to do this in the privacy of your own home? Or is it important to you to just come in pregnant and leave not pregnant from an office, right? Both ways are effective, safe. It's really about what the patient wants their abortion experience to look like. Okay. And then time frame first trimester?

So that's a great question. Does the method matter with how pregnant you are? I guess. Yeah, so we, so medication abortion can be done up to 11 weeks of pregnancy. And then in New York State, the legal limit is 24 weeks for an abortion. And after that, thanks to the Reproductive Health Act, which passed last year, patients are allowed to have abortions past 24 weeks. if the fetus has something that is not compatible with life, or if the pregnancy is threatening the life and the health of the parent. Okay.

So let's talk about first trimester, second trimester, a later abortion, and discuss some of the facts surrounding that, because I think some people might hear that you can get an abortion at 24 weeks in some states and they're doing the math and that might sound a little crazy to them. I, for one, I'm one of those people that have done some research on it, and we want you to speak on it. So the vast majority of abortions in this country occur in the first trimester, and the vast majority of the abortions that occur in the first trimester occur less than eight weeks in pregnancy. So it's a smaller percentage of patients who are seeking abortion later in pregnancy. And as I said earlier, the situations in which patients are seeking later abortion are unique.

And parents are choosing to have an abortion for reasons that are very personal and usually related to the health of the fetus that they're carrying. Okay. So if you were to qualify it with like a percentage, like how many people are doing it first trimester? Over 99% of abortions occur in the first trimest. So, you know, it's not uncommon for me to see patients who are so early that, you know, the pregnancy test is barely even positive. People know their bodies. And, you know, as soon as they missed a period, they tend to act pretty quickly. Okay. Yep. We just wanted to clear that up. Because, you know, I'm not going to get into it, but clearly I think there's been some things from

some of our political leaders and whatnot that twist that narrative of a later abortion and just spew things that aren't accurate. Yeah, no, thanks. I think it's important to talk about that and to clear up all the myths. And then obviously this looks different in every state in terms of, A, where you can even go, the waiting periods, making you listen to an ultrasound, all these things that are basically designed to try to deter you not to do it. And I mean, can we talk about that a little bit?

definitely and I that's actually you know that's it's it's a really big discussion and it's an important one because unfortunately the zip code in which you live really dictates the type of care that you receive and what your abortion looks like does it also dictate in terms of a doctor like what you have to say to a patient like do you have to say to a patient thing you just talked about like do you have to talk to them about do you really want to do this stuff like that are you like legally bound to do something like this so again that also depends on where you live so counseling is a really important part of any medical procedure, right? Like in medicine, we always go over the risk benefits and the alternatives of any procedure. That's just like the standard of care.

And then we tailor our counseling to the individual patient's needs because no two patients are alike, right? No two lives are alike. However, in many states, there are mandated, required scripts that the physician has to read to the patient. In Texas, when I was there in providing abortion care, I had to tell the patient that abortion causes breast cancer. Now, that's not true. But that's crazy. Just straight.

Misinformation? That's a law that you have to say that to somebody. Yes. Yep. That's not true. That's not true. Who makes that a law? And then what room of people just raised their hand and was like,

yep, let's all tell women this causes breast cancer? I can't. That's crazy. Okay. It's fine. I'm going to reserve my judgment. Okay. The first chapter of the book is she's in Texas.

I read that this morning. And like one of the sentences that stuck out to me the most was that she had to wait, what, 24 hours? And I think you wrote as if she hadn't been agonizing over this for weeks. Yeah. You know, like, can't you get a gun quicker than that? That was in the book. That was literally. No, like that was literally.

And the irony is that next door you can go buy a gun without any consultation or waiting period. I love that you said that also. I mean, obviously you wrote in the book, but that, you know, people don't just walk into an abortion clinic willy-nilly, like this is a fun thing to do today. You've agonized over this for a long time. Well, and, you know, some people, yes, for some people, it's a hard decision, and for some, like, it's not really a choice.

It's like the only option that they have. Sure, I just mean the 24-hour waiting period thing is silly. Of course, you've thought about it. You didn't just wake up and walk into a clinic. Exactly, exactly. And, you know, I think that people who have abortions have this reputation of being irresponsible when it's in fact the exact opposite. It's, you know, I wish that we could flip the narrative and say, no, people who seek

abortion care are taking parenting very, very seriously. Right. Right. So it's like they are saying, you know, right now it's not a good time. Right now, like I can't bring a child into this world and, and, you know, help them thrive. Like, you know, and I saw this a lot actually during COVID, like when COVID hit, you New York in March, like very early on, very hard. I had patients coming to the health center to receive an abortion saying to me, you know,

like this was actually a desired pregnancy. And I lost my job and I'm facing a lot of financial insecurity and it's just not the time anymore. And that individual was taking her life and her family's life very seriously. She wasn't being irresponsible and willy-nilly. about it to use, you know, your language. She was, she was being a mature adult and making a decision that was right for her and her family. And that's what we need to get behind and that's what we need to be supportive of. Absolutely. I think we derailed you a little bit like in terms of what it looks like. I mean, we, you know, again, it's different in every state. Do you want to share

like a spectrum of the quote unquote easiest to the quote unquote hardest? Yeah, I wouldn't come back to that. Yeah. I like what you're saying. We'll come back to that. No, definitely. definitely. Yeah. So, you know, I practice in New York where there are no waiting periods. There's actually never been a waiting period. An individual can, you know, find out that they're pregnant. And then, you know, call a health center and get in the same day. And now with telehealth, it's made it that much easier. You can literally have a medication, abortion counseling, like the office visit part over, you know, your laptop or your phone, your smartphone. And then the FDA actually requires that health centers dispense the medications, which is also not medically necessary, but that is the federal law.

So we do have to follow it. So the individual still is to get to the health center to pick them up. We can't like send a prescription for the pills to like the local pharmacy. So that is a barrier to care. And, you know, we follow all those rules, but that's still a part of it. So that's New York. Now let's go to like Texas and Indiana, which are the states that I've worked in. And in Texas, and I highlight a lot of this in the book as well, but in Texas, an individual

has to go to the health center, get an ultrasound, which is mandatory. And we know with a lot of research that if an individual is sure of their last menstrual period and, you know, you can calculate how far in their pregnancy they are, and that's also a very medically sound way to determine how far along they are. But instead, in many states, a really invasive transvaginal ultrasound is required. You know, I don't know if you all have had one. I've had one. It's not comfortable.

Which the purpose is to just be like, there's a baby in there. Do you really want to do this? Right. Am I right? Yes. Well, it's to say, yes. It's to say, they say it's to confirm how far along the pregnancy is. But really, it's to show the image in many states, to show the image to the patient,

to turn up the Doppler, meaning the heart sound. the heart tones, you can hear it, to describe what's on the screen. Like, it's not hard enough. Like, it's just, it's necessary. So legally you have to do this. You have to play the heart sound. You have to do the ultrasound.

It depends. So it depends on the state. Okay. So it depends on the state, yes. Like, there are various requirements around the ultrasound. Okay. That these things have to be done. Yes.

Okay. And then the individual has to go home. So in Texas has to go home for 24 hours. In Indiana, they have to go home for 18 hours. hours. In Missouri, it's 72 hours. Jesus. In many states, it's different. And it's all arbitrary. Missouri, what, there's one clinic, right? Yes, there's one health center. Yeah. And so it's all under the guise of like, well, this is supposed to protect women. But really, it's

actually really harmful because, you know, that's more time off of work. They have to get to the health center and back. They have to like sometimes find a ride, right? Find or you figure out child care. It's really logistically challenging. And one thing in the book that I never thought of, if you don't have a ride, you can't be sedated, right? So there's that too. So like if you don't, if you're telling nobody

and you're, you're ashamed and nobody will pick you up, you can't get pain management. Right. You can't. Which is really hard. And I, you know, that's something I see actually in, in New York as well. And oftentimes it's because patients don't want to tell anyone because there's so much shame and there's so much stigma.

They do have somebody who would pick them up, right? From, like, the dentist. But they... Right, from LASIC, but... Yeah. Well, it's a very private thing. It's not... I'm not going to advertising it on social media.

You know, it's very, very private. Right. But, like, not even being able to tell, like, a loved one because you're so ashamed is like, you know, that really hurts me. And the fact that, like, they can't have the abortion experience that they want, that's really hard. Yeah.

But, you know, we talked about the scripts and having to say things like abortion causes breast cancer, but also in Indiana, I have to show an image of a fetus in the various stages of development and say, like, this is the size of the pregnancy that you are abhorting, which, again, is unnecessary and it's really hurtful and harmful. And just, like, exacerbates the shame. And then in many states, Texas and Indiana included, patients can't use their insurance. Not only can they not use their public insurance, but they can't use their private insurance.

their commercial insurrence. So patients are having to pay out of pocket for the procedure plus or minus sedation or the medication abortion, which is just terrible because abortion is health care. Right. Yeah. It's usually what upwards of $500 if people are curious, right? Which is a lot of money for a lot of people. So in some studies show that the average cost of like the medication abortion is around $500, $600. And then, you know, if you have to have a procedure or you're choosing to have a procedure, it can be more expensive. And then you add the cost of the sedation.

And then some abortions can only happen in a health center up to a certain number of weeks. Otherwise, they have to happen in a hospital. And hospital-based care is always more expensive, right? And you have to pay out of pocket. Like, I mean. You're talking a fortune for a lot of people. especially people that are not in a position to have children. You're obviously making financial decisions already.

Right. Well, and before we really get into why women have abortions, again, obviously a multitude of reasons we're going to cover them. Like, I just, I want to say, I love this part in the book. I'm just going to quote it. I highlighted it a lot. Where you said we can simultaneously believe that there is potential life growing in a uterus and trust the person carrying the pregnancy to do what is right for them in their own lives. Which I'm pro-choice.

We're all pro-choice in this room. You know, it's weird. It's weird to say pro abortion. It's just pro women doing what they feel is best for their own bodies and their own lives. There are people for various reasons, religious reasons, that believe that it's completely wrong and immoral to terminate a potential life. And I think that is fine for them to believe that. And I like that you wrote that in the book of if that's your belief system, that's your belief system. If you would never get an abortion because this is what you believe.

then you don't get an abortion because it's what you believe, you know, and I want to respect people that hold those beliefs. What I don't respect is other people forcing those beliefs on other people and shaming them and protesting outside the clinics and everything like that. I mean, that's how I feel. I don't feel the need to argue with people about when life begins, but what I will argue and defend until the day I die are women's rights to make these decisions regarding their own bodies and how wrong it is that politicians, primarily male, get to make these decisions and make these laws regarding women's reproductive health. Definitely. And I'm really glad you brought that up. The other day somebody said to me, like, Mira, how do you deal with the people who believe that this ball of cells is a living being? I said, you know what? I respect that. I respect that. Because you know what? That person has a lived experience that I don't know about. that person, you know, has been maybe going to church or maybe going to the temple, maybe has had

all this messaging from family members, from grandparents, maybe that, you know, like, I don't know where that's coming from, but it's coming from somewhere. And I respect and I honor that. I mean, I think that every individual has their own unique set of beliefs, whether it stems from religion, whether it stems from philosophy, whatever it is. And we just have to recognize. that. It's the intersection of public policy and personal individual beliefs that really that I have a problem with because as a physician, as a health care provider, I want to do what's best for my patient. And I trust that they know what they're doing with their lives and that like, and I'm here just to facilitate it. I'm not here to ask them, why are you here having an abortion?

I don't need to know why. If they want, you know, to run it by me, if they want to tell me about what they're feeling. If they want to tell me their story, you know what, I'm here for it. But I'm not here to justify anybody's lived experience. I'm here to just honor it. I mean, I have patients who have told me, like, I don't believe in abortion, but I need one, right? And guess what you do. And I'm like, you know what? I'm here to take care of you. You know, like, I'm here to support you. And it's hard. It's really hard, again, when, like, the people making these policies, are the ones who will never have trouble accessing health care. And yet what they're doing is preventing people who are low income, people who are black and brown,

people who are of the LGBTQI community from accessing basic needs. And that's where I have a problem with religion and beliefs interfere with policy. Absolutely. So let's talk about the patients that you're seeing who comes in to have abortions. What type of people are making these decisions? Is it 15-year-old girls? Is it people that are already mothers? Who are you seeing?

What does this look like? Great question. I also get this question a lot. And so it's an important one because I think that there's a lot of misconception around who's getting abortions. I know that there's a lot of misconception. And I see patients of every background demographic, every age, racial, religious, ethnic makeup. I mean, everyone I see. is totally different, totally unique.

You know, I can't say that there is the typical abortion patient. I see young people. I see people who thought they were going through menopause, and maybe they were, but then they ovulated, got pregnant, you know. Interesting. I did an abortion on like a 55-year-old the other day. Yeah, I mean, I thought an interesting stat in the book. I don't know the percentage of women that get abortions that have children already.

I think people don't think about that. I think they picture a young girl. or some irresponsible 20-something or, you know, and I think that, I think even the age was what the most, the highest percentage of women are 25 plus. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that's something that a lot of people don't know is that the majority of patients receiving abortions

are already parents and they already have children. And so it kind of goes to my point that people who have abortions are taking parenting very seriously, right? Because they know what it means. Yeah, and I take it seriously. I had this, I would never venture to say I had a pregnancy scare. I've never had an actual pregnancy scare, but I was dating somebody pretty seriously and my period had just taken a little longer than usually didn't. So it started making me think, you know, well, this is a person I'm committed to.

We do have means. We care about each other. But, you know, we live in different states. I'm not super in love with him. I don't see myself ending up with this person. I didn't want to have kids with him. So, like, I'm five weeks into not getting my period or something. And I'm like, is it irresponsible if I would terminate a pregnancy? Can I give somebody the life that I had growing up? So those are the kind of things I think running through my head as a 30-year-old considering, like, could I get an abortion? What would that look like?

And that's totally valid. And the thoughts that you were thinking are exactly what many of my patients are thinking and sharing with me in the exam room. It's very normal and very common. And something that we don't talk about as much is like, what about the person who just doesn't ever want kids? You know, we, see, there you go. I don't want children.

Yeah. We'll talk, we're doing an episode on it later, guys, if you're curious. I mean, people know, our listeners know this. Yeah, I mean, I have, you know, I have a very, very close friend who, and she and her husband, you know, they're very, we're very close, and we're the same age in our mid-30s, and her husband got a vasectomy, and they're like, we just don't see children in our lives. And, you know, they've, but they have felt, they have had to justify that to people, you know, the want-to-be grandparents, right?

So their parents who are just like wanting to be grandparents. And it's just not the quote-unquote norm in our society, yet that's not fair. Like if an individual doesn't see having children as part of like their lived experience, then that's okay. We need to be supportive of that too. Right. You know. Because you're taking parenting seriously. Like I love you say it like that.

You know, if I'm really serious about not having kids, I'm taking it seriously. Right. And I was really serious and I am, you know, if I had kids that I want them to have a life that I had. And if I can't give that to them or if I think that they're going to be raised in a household with two people that don't love each other that don't live in the same house and that's what I want to give somebody, then it's okay to say that too. And I was a 30-year-old person of means. Yep. Well, let's talk about the power in sharing stories, normalizing abortion, the shame, the stigmas, all the things. Yeah. So I guess I can talk about my own

experience. So I've never been pregnant. I grew up in a very conservative family. in South Carolina. My parents are Indian immigrants. And we didn't talk about sex. We didn't, you know, talk about any of that stuff. I never saw my parents love each other very much, but, you know, they never kissed one another. It's just, you know, that's just cultural. And, you know, I became a physician. I, you know, specialized in sexual reproductive health care and I'm a very loud and proud abortion provider. But that wasn't always the case. I was shy about it. I didn't talk about it very much because I didn't feel comfortable saying that I was an abortion provider because I was scared of what like response I would get, whether it be from like family friends

or friends who, you know, I wasn't sure where they stood because we weren't even really talking about it. I knew my friends were progressive, but I didn't really know where they landed on abortion, right? I also was concerned for safety. Yeah, that was interesting to read the book, that some women, they're scared for their lives to be doing these procedures. Yeah. Which is interesting because it would be so comforting for me to like walk into an office and see a young woman who I feel like I can relate to that I can talk to. So how important it is to have somebody your age providing something like this. Yeah. You said you put music on. You tell you up Beyonce. Oh yeah. You like treat them like humans that they are. Totally. I would feel much more comfortable. Yeah. I listen to Brianna. Or jazz if you want. Whatever you want. Taylor's new Taylor Swift. Totally. It's a great album by the way. Of death.

The best idea. Yeah. And then, you know, I, it was actually the experience in Target, which I talk about in my book, where I had an encounter with a complete stranger who told me she had an abortion. And that was after I got the courage to tell her that I was a doctor who provided abortion care. And, you know, I shared my truth. She shared her truth. And I felt like we had a moment.

And I just started to tell people after that that like I provide abortion care. Yeah, period. And that's what I do. And it's the work that I love. And I'm really proud of it. And I just started to get like so many stories from, I mean, I was a, from just complete strangers at barbecues. I was a jury duty.

And this like older Jewish man told me that he and his wife had an abortion after getting, you know, getting some advice from their rabbi. I just started to get all these stories. And so some of the stories that I got, you know, I've shared in the book. And then, you know, some of the other stories in the book kind of found me in other ways. And what I also found was that when an individual shared their story with me afterwards, many people would say, wow, like, you're the only one I've told. Or I haven't told many people this.

And it felt really nice to share that. And I said, and I just said, gosh, we should just be talking about this so much. And so I hope that by me sharing what I do opens people up and makes it easier for them to share with one another or keep it personal. Because like I said, in the book, you don't have to share your story if you don't want to. That's totally fine. But I hope that we can get to a place where if an individual wants to share their story, that they can. Yeah, I guess it's just, I don't know. It's one of those weird things.

It's like, why is it so, like, taboo? That's not really the right word. But, like, why are people so scared to share? Are they worried about how it's going to make them look? Like, it's going to reflect poorly on their character. Like, I'm just trying to think of why, you know? And clearly, there's the fear that you will have somebody in the room that's super anti-abortion and pro-life. And then it'll just turn into a really heated debate.

But then I guess the fear is that. you'll be judged and looked at differently, I guess. You know, and obviously people hear you're a doctor that provides abortion care, and they immediately know, okay, one, same team. You know, I know where she stands and be, this person isn't going to judge me. So I don't know. I mean, it's, we talked, it's very different, but we talked about this on our sexual assault episode two, just like the shame and the stigma around some of these things and why people are scared to share

them with others and like keep these quote unquote secrets or things about them just completely to themselves. Yeah. To themselves. Even if you feel like your friends would be accepting. And before we started recording, I was saying to Ashley, you know, I have friends that I've had lifelong friends that told me years later that they had abortions. And I'm the last person to judge that. I think you should do exactly what you want with your body and your life. But I was, I'm surprised when somebody that I've known and been close with for years will tell me that they've done that. Because I'm the last person to judge it, but it is, it's not talked about that much. And it's, it's interesting to me, because it's, it's not this horrible, shameful thing. And again, I agree. If you don't want to share it,

don't share it. Yeah, yeah. Wasn't there Sex and City episode? They all just, like, talked about their abortions. They all just, they hadn't talked about it since they'd been friends. And then Carrie went and found that guy. The waiter. The waiter. I didn't remember her. Did she tell him? No, she just says, she goes, hi. And he doesn't recognize her. But they all just had this moment of like, wait, I've had an abortion. I mean, it's, I don't know. Also, everybody's different in what they choose to share with the world. And I think we all know that word can travel fast. And especially when you're younger, people tend to be more gossipy. And so I'm sure some people just don't share these personal things about themselves because they don't want the world to know. I don't know.

I've been thinking about this a lot. I've been reflecting a lot. If I had an abortion, who would I tell? Who would I tell? Would I be like my mom and my mom and Ray or would it be more of like this is the thing I'm talking about in mixed company because I want to normalize it more? I think maybe you're the expert, you tell me, but if I were to hypothesize, maybe people have this like deep-seated desire to like explain away why they did it. How do you understand why they did it and not feel like they're a quote-unquote bad person for doing it? Some people don't want to have those conversations, even though all of your reasons are probably, number one, really thought about for a long time. Very difficult, very rational. but maybe you just feel this like need to really explain yourself and those are really tough conversations.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that's exactly what it is, Rina. And I think that like the, you know, it's like, well, I had an abortion. But let me give you the like eight reasons why it's okay. You know, and that's not fair. You should just be able to say, I had an abortion, period. Why do we need to break it down for the person that we're sharing it with, right? But you're right. That is, I think, the immediate gut reaction. Like, I just need to justify this immediately. Well, when people tell me they're pregnant, I mean, there's memes about it of, like, how it changes over the years. Like, when your friend tells you she's pregnant, when you're in college, it's like, oh, what are we doing about this? But then in your 30s, you're supposed to be like, or late 20s, 30s, you're excited. I still feel like I'm a little flatlined on people telling you they're pregnant. Because, right, why? It's like, did you, is this what you want? Then congratulations.

Ashley's like, they need to justify it to me. It's just kind of like, you're right. Like, is, sometimes you just don't know how to react. You need to kind of pick up the tone from the person telling you. Because I had a friend the other day to send me an ultrasound and I was like, are we excited? So I love that you just said that, actually, because, you know, in training, my mentor always taught us when delivering the results of a pregnancy test, you wait for their reaction. Because it's so common for people to immediately say, oh, congratulations. And that's just, that's not always what the person wanted, right?

You don't know what they want. So wait for their body language. Wait for them to respond, right? So as a physician and as a friend to so many, I have been on the receiving end of so many pictures of ultrasounds, of, you know, positive pregnancy tests. And I, my text back is always, so how do you feel about this, right? Like, how do you feel?

I don't know. I don't know how you feel. I'm not going to assume I know how you feel, right? Right. like yeah and and so i mean yeah so so thank you for i just think of i think i think of knocked up the movie or yeah she just like cries um in the room i wonder another this is kind of heavy but um i know i have a friend that had an abortion that has no children but wants children with her partner who she had an abortion with and i know that's such a tough decision

because they want children at some point but it's not the right time and i i i know how hard it was just from talking to her about it. And I sympathize with anyone who is having to face a decision like that because it's not that you just don't want children. You want children and you are terminating a pregnancy with even the partner that you want to have children with. And I assume that's probably why people may not share that information because of the judgment they think they may receive. And then they have the fear that like, what if I struggle to get pregnant again, like with this partner and I terminated a pregnancy. I'm saying this with clearly no judgment and again, the utmost sympathy and respect for any decision a woman decides to make

regarding her own body and also, of course, not being able to relate myself. Totally. I've heard that scenario a lot too in my professional and personal life. I don't really have a medical response for that, but I think as like a human being and as a friend and loved one to so many, I think that it is a really hard thing for many folks to wrap their heads around because they're like, I am, you know, getting older. And like I do want to be pregnant and I do want to parent, but, you know, my biological clock is ticking. And so kind of one of my other campaigns is to normalize egg freezing.

That's what we had Maryland to talk about. Yeah, she came on. That's why we had her on. Yeah, she talked about it. So I've frozen my eggs too, and I tell everyone that. I'm like, you know, because I want to be a parent one day, you know, but right now it's just not the time. Yeah, no, just to flex, I, like, went and had, like, a... I had a consultation about freezing my eggs, and they were like, you are so fertile.

I had so many follicles. But that place closed. They did. It went out of business. Sorry, I just had a picture. Okay, but they were really hyping up, like, my reproductive abilities. I had, like, 19 follicles or something. something. Not a lot. They were like, wow, you're very fertile. You're very fertile. I think another thing,

by the way, that you were talking about, like, friends with kids. I had this discussion with my mom once. My mom had a lot of difficulty getting pregnant. My mom had multiple miscarriages. They went, her, my father went through all kinds of hormones and shots. And my mom, like, wanted a baby so bad. Like, I was such a miracle to her. And I remember talking to her once and saying, like, how would you feel if I ever needed an abortion? And, you know, I think that can sometimes via barrier to discussing things with other people as well and feeling like the people around you wanted kids so badly and you don't want this.

And my mom's response was, you know, I want you to do what's good for you and your body. I was married to your father. I was in a place financially to have kids, you know, whatever. So, but I do think that there is some shame around that, especially at a certain age when all of your friends want kids or they've struggled to have kids. And you don't want to be looked at as it's so cavalier

that you just like waltzed in and got an abortion, you know? Yeah. I think that happens a lot. we're spending like half the episode just speculating why people are scared to share. But I mean, I just want to also just validate why people would be ashamed. I don't want anyone to feel ashamed. I think it's an important discussion. I think it's really important.

Yeah. So we obviously sympathize with anybody that's feeling that's struggling with sharing their truth. Yeah. If that's what they want to do. I mean, it's the same as like, and I hear this too. It's like the friend who's having a hard time getting pregnant and then like the other friend who gets pregnant after, you know, like a month of trying, right? Like, it's, it's, yeah,

fertility issues. Yeah. Same an episode for everything. Yes, yeah. Maybe you have some good advice then. Like, if you're not comfortable talking to a friend, if you feel a lot of shame, are there like good online forums that you would like love to recommend?

Yes. Oh, that's such a great question. A hotline. Yes. No, thank you so much for asking that. Thank you for validating me. I really appreciate it. No, that's a really important question.

So there's an organization called All Options. and they provide counseling around any fertility, pregnancy, reproductive health issue. So whether you want to continue your pregnancy, whether you're struggling getting pregnant, whether you want to have an abortion, whether you're struggling with the decision around having an abortion, they're really awesome. There's also another organization called Exhale, and they provide a lot of counseling around abortion. So those are the two that I would put in a plug for. Great.

I imagine you're like 16 years old. I don't know if we have a lot of 16-year-old listeners. but like I don't know who I would have talked to about it at that age. My other dumb 16-year-old friends, I don't know. That is, I will say, the most commonplace for young people to access information around sexual reproductive health care is their friends, as well as the internet. So, you know, I mean, I work for Planned Parenthood,

so I will put in a plug for Planned Parenthood, that we have a lot of great resources on our website. Bedsider.org is another organization that produces a lot of really good content around sexual and reproductive health care that's really accessible to young people. Their graphics are awesome. They have really cool videos and a lot of, like, good information

with regards to anything related to sex. And we'll list all these on Instagram stories for you guys. This is probably a dumb question that I should know, but if you are 16 or you're 15 or you're under, you're a minor, that's the word. And you come in and need an abortion, how does that look? Excellent question. That again depends on where you live. So if you are in New York and you want to access anything related to sexual and reproductive health, whether it be accessing contraception, whether it be getting an abortion, getting prep or pep for HIV prevention, getting emergency contraception, the list goes on, you don't have to get consent from a parent. or a guardian.

Okay. You can come in if you can get there and receive that care. You can consent to it. I have Planned Parenthood or at any? If you're receiving care from anyone in New York State. Great. Got it. Yeah.

Okay. Now, in many states, there are rules around how and if minors are able to access abortion care. So in many states, if you are pregnant and deciding to continue the pregnancy, You are considered an emancipated minor. Now, if you are wanting an abortion, you have to have parental consent, or you have to seek what they call judicial bypass, meaning you have to go to court on your own and have a judge grant you the right to access abortion care.

I write about this in my book. The chapter is called Vidalia, and it's about an individual who seeks, judicial bypass because she did not and could not tell her mother that she needed an abortion. And she was in West Virginia and needed care. And so she went around that law and had a judge say it was okay for her to get an abortion. This might be also very stupid question. If you have like a West Virginia driver's license, can you go to Pennsylvania and get, can you go to another state with another states? Yes. Okay. Yep. And so this is one of the reasons why people travel to get abortion care.

Because of state restrictions, they'll go to other states, like a neighboring state if it's more liberal and more progressive. Yeah. Great question. Well, I love Planned Parenthood, and it was special for me growing up

because I was sexually active at like 1617. I didn't grow up in a non-sex positive household, but I don't know that I would have asked my mom to take me to get birth control. So like Planned Parenthood was a safe, clean, healthy place. I could do that judgment free when I was in high school.

So it meant a lot to me to be able to do that. I went to Planned Parenthood, but my first year I moved to New York, I needed a Gino appointment. I was just like, I'm just going to roll up to play in Parenthood. And then I met Dr. Sean. But now he doesn't do it anymore.

Anyway, okay, we want to talk a lot about some of the political stuff, some racial issues, barriers to access, all these kind of things. Most of us are pretty familiar with politics enough to understand that abortion has become such a partisan issue, not become, it always has been.

And kind of how crazy that is, honestly, and how hypocritical it is, like we said, you know, the people that are quote unquote anti-abortion pro-life would probably get an abortion if they needed to, you know, just speculating there, but it will always be accessible to them. And there's just, there's a lot of hypocrisy, obviously. And of course, just in general, creating more barriers to access birth control, but also being anti-abortion, like this just doesn't align there. But yeah, we want to talk about some of the stuff. You know, at the core of it all, it's a health care issue. It has been made political by politicians, mostly white men, white cis men, to get votes. It's been exploited, and it's

so unfortunate. And I think politicians are really good at using social justice issues at their disposal, right? And I think I said earlier. So it's, you know, gay marriage was one that was used. And a lot of people are single issue voters and say, okay, well, he's anti-gay marriage. I'm going to vote for him, right? But now, you know, when gay marriage became legal and I think 2015, we don't hear about it as much, right? So honestly, that would be my wish is that there would be, So Roe v. Wade, just to clarify, actually, it made it so that abortion was not a crime in all 50 states. If it were to be overturned, many states have what we call trigger laws in place to make it illegal in those individual places. So what would be really great is to there's a bill called the Women's Health Protection Act that was introduced in the Senate in 2019 that would provide federal protection.

around abortion and to codify it as a health care issue. So that's a piece of legislation that we can all get behind. There's also the Hyde Amendment, which is terrible. And it's an amendment that gets voted on like every year. And it has been since it was implemented a few years after Roe v. Wade, that prevents public funds from being used towards abortion. And so if we got rid of that in the Each Woman Act, which is another piece of legislation

that we can also get behind the Each Women Act. The little component about the Hyde Amendment, so Medicaid is funded, is partially state funded, partially federally funded. So 17 states have said, well, our state dollars are contributing to this. So therefore we're going to allow,

so like New York, for example, says, well, state funds are contributing to Medicaid. And so we're going to allow Medicaid to be used to pay for abortion. So that's amazing. And 17 of the 50 states allow this. So the rest don't, which is the vast majority.

Which are the people are like, I don't want my tax dollars go into abortion. Exactly. Okay, your tax dollars go to a lot of stuff that you don't even know about. Totally. Come on. Totally. But politicians and the media are making this issue

worse. And saying, you know, like and a lot of people, like I said, are single issue voters. and it's become this way in the recent past and not, like it used to not be this way from like some of my older colleagues say, like it just wasn't really like this. But I think it's common. It's very, very common.

I think people especially that are not super well-informed about politics because it can be really scary to talk about and intimidating. I would encourage people to not be single-issue voters and just sort of look at the whole picture because I think oftentimes, you know, maybe a candidate that's running on that one policy, see everything else they stand for is actually at your detriment, especially as a woman for your other rights,

for how much you make, for the other rights that you have in the state. I just think oftentimes, some people that are in power today, they run on these one issue and you vote for them, but all of their other policies really affect you negatively. So I think that politics can be really intimidating. You don't know where to look, but just try. I just get on the internet and try. Also just realize that it's not real.

They don't care. They don't care about these fetuses. they don't, they're the ones that don't care that there were, and still our kids in cages at the border. Like, they're not the ones that are really caring about our nation's youth when they are out of the womb. So it's like, just try to see through the bullshit, honestly. Like, nothing else they stand for actually aligns with caring so much about, you know, a heartbeat in the womb. Right. Well, where do they stand on education after you have the kid? Right. That's what's like all they care.

about quote unquote is the fetus. I mean, well, I could go on on about this. And they're also the same ones who would be able to access an abortion if they needed one. I'd like to see the diagram of the anti-abortion politicians who have funded abortions.

Would love to see it. Would love the receipts on that. And also, not a hot take, but people are going to get abortions regardless. Regardless of whether you make them a criminal act or outlaw them, people will get them and they will be less safe

than if they would have had access. And it's just like, I think that's one of the main arguments of how futile these efforts are. And like we should just obviously focus on a million other things that would improve the country, honestly, and like our whole, our whole system, even the healthcare system. There's so many other things within the healthcare system that need improving on. But I do want to talk just about how barriced access and political intervention really affect black and brown people and low-income people, people in rural areas, LGBTQIA folks.

So can you just provide us a little of your information expertise on this? A lot of people just aren't aware. And a lot of people live in a bubble of like, I can get an abortion if I want. It's like, yeah, it's not so easy for everyone else. Yeah, it's not. And I think so we can start with the LGBTQIA community. It's one that I work with a lot at Planned Parenthood.

I also provide hormone therapy for my trans and gender non-binary patients to facilitate their gender transition. And, you know, the community has not only do they face a lot of stigma and shame and violence in their daily lives, but many of them face those same disparities in the exam room or when they're seeing a doctor, if they see a doctor at all, right? many of my trans patients, you know, don't feel safe going to the doctor. They feel like they have to teach their doctor how to take care of them. They have to teach their doctor about their body. I used to work at CalMlord, which is an amazing organization, healthcare organization in downtown Manhattan.

And I had a lot of patients who had specifically moved to the city just to receive care because there was no one in like South Carolina or few, you know, just like one or two providers. in South Carolina who really felt comfortable caring for the needs of the community. And I think, so, you know, I've had patients who identify as trans and who have a uterus and are using testosterone for masculinization and who stop getting their periods because testosterone will do that. But that doesn't mean that they're not ovulating and could get pregnant if they have sex

in a procreative way. But they don't oftentimes get that education or know that that is even a possibility. many people assume that they never want to have children, and that's also not true that many trans people want a parent, and we need to be supportive of that. In terms of black and brown people, they've faced disparities in health care for so long, and that honestly could be an episode in itself.

And I am brown myself, but my black colleagues and my black page, patients can say and will say that there's a lot of racism in health care and a lot of that, you know, people say, oh, I'm not racist, but there's, we're not talking about the overt racism. Right. You're not refusing to see a black patient. Exactly. They're in the room.

Right. It's more about the implicit bias that goes on. And one of the things that, you know, in my position and as an educator and as an activist and an advocate is to, what I'm working, towards is training more doctors of color to provide abortion care, more advanced practice clinicians, so PAs and NPs and midwives who are of color to provide abortion care, and to lift the voices of those health care providers who are of color to become activists. Because there's a lot of research that shows that people of color do prefer their health care provider to be of

color and that there's less bias that goes on when minorities are treated by minorities. And so we need to acknowledge that and recognize that and do an act on that. So that's something that I am working on. And then people who are of low income are going to turn to Medicaid in order to get health care services. And the vast majority of people seeking abortion care are of color and with Medicaid. and they can't use their health insurance to get health care. And there's a story that in my book about a woman named Desiree

who is living in Indiana and can't access abortion care, and she is of color, and she talks about her lived experience and being a black woman and just not being able to get basic health care. And it goes into the details of that. And I mean, I talk about when there was, we know we're in the midst of like a resurgence of the racial justice movement, which has been incredibly powerful and really amazing to witness here in New York. And the rallies and the protests are still going on.

And I remember a few weeks ago I was rounding in my health centers and I was talking to my staff. And a lot of my staff are people of color. And a lot of them wanted to, you know, they were just itching to go out and protest, as was I. And you know, what I told them was, look, there's a large, parallel in the racial justice movement and reproductive justice movement, that if an individual is not able to feel safe in their daily lives, feel that they are free from violence and shame and stigma in their daily lives and exercise bodily autonomy, then how are we ever going to feel that we can ever achieve reproductive justice? An individual who were

saying has the right, a black woman who are saying has the right to conceive and give birth to a child should be able to raise a child and not worry about that child getting shot, right? Not worry about that child being, you know, arrested because they're black. And so they're intricate links into like the work that we do in a day to day and like, you know, the larger racial justice movement. And so, I don't know, I could talk on. No, I'm glad we tied it back into that. Yeah, we could go on for hours on just the racial, socioeconomic sides of abortion.

But we'll save that for another time. And I think that's a good place to wrap up if you feel comfortable with that. Yeah. Any like final thoughts in terms of your patients or what you do or women who are thinking about this? Yeah. I mean, I think there's so much to cover. And even, you know, after I wrote the book, I was like, gosh, I should have touched on this or I should have touched on that. I did try to get into the nuances into the weeds as much as possible because I think that the quote that I have in the very beginning of the book, you know, it's from Audrey Lord and it says that there is no such thing as a single issue struggle because we do not live single issue lives.

that we need to really move away from this idea that abortion happens in a silo. And there's a human being that is attached to that experience who comes at the abortion with all these intersections that we may or may not know, but we have to acknowledge they do probably exist. And I hope that everyone reads this book. And I hope that it opens up important conversations and that it portrays abortion. as the human right that it is and the critical health care issue that it is. Yeah.

We're going to have you tell everybody where they can find that. And I just want to thank you for being so open and honest about all these things. And I love that we just promoted that there should be no shame in this and it should be done in a safe and healthy way. And there's lots of options and resources. But no shame or stigma should ever be attached to this, whatever you're going through. Yeah. Well, thank you again.

And again, the book is not out yet. It's September 1st. but can you pre-order it? You can definitely pre-order it wherever books are sold. I want to put in a plug for independent booksellers,

preferably black or brown owned. It is also available at every major book outlet. And yeah, I have a website with all the various places you can get it. Oh, good.

So what's the website? It's, you're the only one I've told. com. Awesome. Okay. Great. Well, check out that website, you guys. Pre-order the book. And while we're talking about websites, check out our glam new website at Girls Gotta Eat Podcast.com and we're Girls Gotta Eat Podcast on Instagram. I'm Ash Hess on Instagram. Raina is reina.org.

Girls underscore Gotta eat on Twitter and YouTube.com slash Girls Gottoeat eat. And thanks for listening, guys. Yeah. Have a good week, guys. Bye.