Girls Gotta Eat - Texting Behavior: Decoded with Dr. Mimi Winsberg

Episode Date: March 28, 2022

It's another game changing conversation; we're taking an essential look at texting with Dr. Mimi Winsberg and discussing how this important form of communication relates to our compatibility and chemistry with someone and can even predict the fate of a relationship. Mimi walks us through the five texting languages, how texts can help you determine someone's personality type early on, toxic text traits, landmines to avoid when texting, emojis, response time, spotting liars, and more. Before Mimi joins us, we're spilling some tea on our families, recommending the shows we've been loving, and confessing what we literally don't care about lately. Enjoy! Follow Dr. Mimi Winsberg on Instagram @Text.Whisperer and check out her book Speaking in Thumbs. Follow us @GirlsGottaEatPodcast, Rayna @Rayna.Greenberg, and Ashley @AshHess. Visit our website for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Thank you to our partners this week: Framebridge: Get 15% off your first order at framebridge.com with code GGE. Pretty Litter: Get 20% off your first Pretty Litter order at prettylitter.com/gge. Helix: Get up to $200 off all mattress orders plus 2 free pillows at helixsleep.com/gge. Nutrafol: Get $15 off your first month's subscription plus free shipping at nutrafol.com/gge. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It does help to understand how to use this language. And it does help to understand what a person's text says about them and what your text with the person you're texting with says about your relationship. Another episode of Girls Gotta Eat. Welcome back. I'm still laughing that you said the way I told you I was going to sit here. It was creepy. Raina just made a move on me.

First time in four and a half years. Because sometimes when we just, listen, we have a really hot episode for you today. And it's longer interview. and it's so great. So we were like, we'll just keep the intro short and we don't need to film it. And Raina, when we don't film it, she sits at a different place.

And I was like, do you want to sit in that chair? And she was like, you know, I like to sit across. What did you say? You know, I like to sit over here and look at you. It was very weird. She wasn't joking. That was dead serious. Because on the couch, I'm more like next to you here.

It was like a whisper. It was like a whisper. It was like, I just want to look at you. Like in a star is born. I just want to get another, I just want to get another look at you. I'm trying to ASMR turn you on. Oh my God. It doesn't work, Raina.

That's, I turn you on. I turned you on. Guys, it's tour week. We will be on tour this week in Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver. Love these cities. Can't wait to be there. We're so excited to see you guys on the road. And we are going to be out of here for like two weeks.

We'll talk about it. All right. Get me the fuck out. Okay. We're leaving New York for like two weeks. Like Sunday. We've got a lot of stuff coming up. Okay.

So as we would be back, as this airs on the 28th, Cindy Heseltine's 70th was the 27th. So that was yesterday. So obviously we're recording this before we go, but we're going to Dewey Beach, we're home with Beach, doing a little birthday for her, kind of low-key, you know, 20, 25 person semi-surprise that you've planned. That I've had to plan. And your dad, I have the back one of my family and my dad, he ruined the surprise. I don't even understand what went.

down. I was shook to my core. So, like, early March, I wanted to do a big party, have like a big surprise party. So I'm on the group chat with my dad, my brother, and my aunt Kathy, trying to figure out what we're going to do. I need, I need guest lists. I need emails. I'm in touch with Big Fish catering. Catering. Every, you know, big fish is our restaurant catering go to best restaurants in Delaware. I wanted to do it at this place called Salt Air. And just kind of like trying to figure out how to do it with the amount of people we wanted. I'm, like, stressing. I'm, like, getting catering, like, quotes, you know, getting capacity.

Your parents are retired, and we have full-time jobs. Like, on top of everything else. Everybody else is retiring on this text chain. And so I'm, I had said so clearly, like, it's going to, we're going to do a big surprise party. I'm getting quotes from everybody, yada, yada, for days. Days. And hold on, no, you know what, I'm going to read the text. It's going to have more effect.

Honestly, the verbiage with what? This is this like, what are men situation? Okay, okay. So I'm going back and forth. I'm like 6 p.m. The COVID, the Big Fish is 70 people. So we'll see how many we have. Once I get an idea of the number,

I'll reach out to Big Fish. We could also maybe get solid air. I'm going back and forth. My dad goes, don't invite anyone until we all talk. Maybe it's just our core solstice group. That's their best friends minus so-and-so, but we'll talk.

And Kathy jumps in. I thought this was a surprise. And I go, Dad, you asked her? Keep in mind days of me trying to coordinate. Days. My dad said,

I've been talking to her for about a year now about this. And then I'm busy now. Call you later. He's like, in case you thought I ruined the surprise recently, it was never a surprise.

I told her a year ago. And I'm busy. You guys have been playing. Why am I involved? Why am I doing this? I'm busy. Both of you were... Mother Azul.

And so I just do back, like we'll talk about this emoji today. My favorite emoji is the squiggly, it's red cheeks, squiggly face, eyes. It's a what the fuck. It's a fucked up face. It's my favorite emoji. I just wrote that back. Matt jumps in. Ha ha, ha, what a mess.

He doesn't volunteer to help me either. And then dad goes, mom's request has been a small group that are closest to her. And he, like, lists out all these. people. I go, what about Jen? I already invited Jen, which is, and he goes, yeah, for sure. What? And I said, so I'm going to figure out a plan for about 20 people and this is not a surprise. Cool, cool. And Matt goes, why not just include mom in the group chat at this point? And I go, ha, ha, ha, ha. And dad goes, 20 sounds perfect. Not a total surprise, but a little suspense. Also, he asked you if you wanted to include me. The suspense is whether or not I come yes it says um if rata or one of your friends wanted to come mom would love it i'm sorry your mom

hasn't texted me to invite me yet little suspense i'm busy and i wrote i wrote i wrote no i said suspense l-ohel i'm just glad you and mom plan this for a year but didn't bring it up until now and matt goes yeah talk about suspense dad's been planning for a year like how does it happen if your dad's been planning this for a year with your mom knowing about it why didn't they just plan this why are you planning this. We are launching a new company. Guys, save your money. We're launching a new company. We have a current company. And yes, the dick. The dick is a full-time job also. I was like, I said the dick and I was like, where am I going to this? Where am I going to you? You got there. I don't know. I'm going with this. The dick is a full-time job.

Raina Greenberg. Everybody. New merch, Bella put it on the list. The dick is a full-time. It's so, it's so like, masculine energy. Like pussy's a full-time job. You know what I mean? You know what I forgot to bring up with you last week? Because we talked about soft launching. Like for so long in the previous episode

when I just loved our talk, this guy soft-launched me. He wore one of our pieces of merch in an Instagram video and he soft-launched and I forgot to bring it up last week. Well, I'm glad you brought up now. Yeah. And I'm in those comments.

You really are. Your comment was funnier than mine. No, yeah. That is a great. wait, okay. Also, like, I got really emotional because I thought he bought the merch on his own accord. Ashley was like, I want that. I was like, I want that. No, really. Like, I'm, I would love that. If a guy that I was like into or casually talking to whatever, like bought a piece of a merch like on his own accord and like, it would melt my heart. So any guys are listening that are trying to get in my pants. But you would send it to him. But and I took it back. I was like, not as not as sweet. But I did take it to FedEx on my. I put it in a box by myself.

Oh, it was a sample. It was a free sample. He was a free sample. If you're listening. But the merch, the shipping was a lot of money. It cost me $3 to send that. Why did you just send it from the? Because it was old stuff.

He wanted this like one piece of expired merch. Oh, my God. He wanted the your unnoticed pants. Okay. So that is, yeah. So he soft launched. I love that. I thought that was very funny.

But, well, anyway, speaking of how busy we are, we'll be on the road this week. We'll see you guys. We are so excited to get to Portland, Seattle, Vancouver. All those shows, except for the second show in Portland, is sold out. There might be a couple tickets left. The second show in Portland. If you guys are coming, you know, we liked all of your stories. Send us crazy dating stories about yourself or the people that you're coming with.

Roast your man that you're bringing. Roast your friends. Send all that to stories at girls's got e pottcast.com. All the upcoming shows send us, just make the subject line at the city that you're coming in to. And I think that's it. Tickets are still available to Kansas City and St. Louis couple in Detroit and Indianapolis and Toronto. So get those tickets, but we do have plenty left like in Kansas City, Detroit. Those are going to be big theater shows.

We really want you guys to come. We're planning them. We're getting everything planned on now. They're going to be sick. And yeah, just anything you have funny to share about who you're coming with, send us emails. Okay, Rayna, I was had something else. So we were talking about my dad.

I have a text. I have a DM about your dad. Someone sent this to me. This killed me. This girl DMed me and she said, she was relisting an old episode. So May 2021. She goes, can we talk about how Raina's dad pulled a Kanye before Kanye moved in next door to his ex-wife?

You guys don't know. My dad was living in Dallas. He split up from his horrible wife. And he moved back to Pittsburgh and he literally moved in next door to my mom. He lives a less than a two-minute walk. I can see her front door from his front door. She is just like, I could spin on her house from his house. He moved in right next door to my mom and she hates it.

She couldn't hate it more. I mean, but also, like, we're not condoning Kanye's behavior. He is just, it's not okay the way he's been acting, but that goes out saying, but it's very funny. And your mom doesn't feel threatened. No, my mom's been my stepdad for, like, 25 years. My mom just acts like my dad is so thirsty for her. Like, my dad has been remarried since her.

She's been married to somebody for 25 years, and she's like, why ain't your dad's so obsessed with me? Like, she acts like he's going to try to, like, get back together. Like, he's going to show up. No, I've, like, never seen two people. that are so mismatched. I'm like, how did you find each other? I don't get it.

I have this, like, secret dream. They get back together one day. No offense to your mom's husband. But I just, like, you, I don't know, like. No offense to Chip. Somehow, no offense to Chip in his statement shirts. Bella, you don't know that, like, Chip used to come to shows and stuff every time his shirt was allowed.

His shirt filled the green room. He would wear a statement shirt every time. It's funny because I haven't heard Chip talk since, like, 1998. Like, he just doesn't talk. He's very quiet. offense to chip, but like, I don't know. Like, okay, Rada, let me ask you, if they, your parents came out and they were like, they came out, we realized we were together.

We were back in love and they were like, we're getting back together. Like, what would you do? Can you even imagine it? I'm trying to like let this like wash over me. Like, how crazy that would be. I think it would be such good content for us. It would be great for the show. Yeah.

I feel like my brother and I are just like, we don't, you guys just do whatever you want. Yeah, of course. Of course. It's not like the view of dreams of your. family being reunited. But I had a girlfriend in college and when we were in college, her parents would come and they would set up the tailgate and I love them so much. And they were separated or probably divorced, I think. And they co-parented and were friends for years while they were divorced, dated other people and then got remarried like not too long ago. Like probably 15 years up

they separated. It's always so fascinating to me when people like find their way back to you. So I think you see that a lot like when people get divorced and they get back together with their high school ex or something. They just like reconnect with somebody from so many years ago. And I mean, it makes sense you kids with somebody who would make my life easier. I just, I don't know. I'm hoping. Here's hoping. Then we get Bill on the podcast. He's like, I always loved her. She hates him. My dad does that a lot. My dad frequently, we are at my brother's college football banquet, like parents dinner, and my dad stood up in front of my stepdad and clinked his glass and he said that we're getting back together. As a joke. In front of 100 people and my stepdad.

Did your mom even laugh? Or was she like, No, she does not think it's funny. I'm rolling. And my mom's like, Chip does not think this is funny. Chip does not laugh at this. And I'm like,

everyone else is laughing at this. I love your dad for that. What an eye god. He gets up and he's like, Mern and I are getting back together. And it's just crickets. You and Arler like, what the fuck?

Also, this is like a football banquet. Half of you don't even know my parents. They're like, are we allowed to laugh? Like, it's not friends and family, it's strangers. And my dad has stood up and clinked to the glass to get everyone's attention. And he's, everyone's giving speeches about their kids. And my dad's like, murder and I are getting back together. He's doing it a bit.

Your dad drops the mic, like, walks off. But then didn't your mom wheel out a cake for your dad? Like, your mom still has a thing for him too. I will not. Someday we'll tell the whole story of my brother's rehearsal dinner. It'll be the whole episode. It was crazy. My mom bought a cake for my dad's 70th birthday.

Your dad. Your dad, not her husband. You're her ex-husband. Yeah. My dad's birthday wasn't for six weeks. This was like May 19th. My dad's birthday is June 28th. And I'll tell you whose birthdays are before that.

Mine. His brother. And say, her husband. Yes. Her own husband's birthday. It feels like the ultimate troll. Like, what happened there? Was your mom mad at Chip?

And she was like, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to get a cake for my other ex-husband. And then at a really nice restaurant, full of staff, tons of staff, could not express enough of how much staff there is to wait on you. My mom made my stepdad wheeled a cake out for my dad. Are you kidding? For a birthday that's after his. For a birthday that also is in six weeks.

It's not, it doesn't make any sense. And then your dad's stuff, he was like, we are getting back together. My dad's wife was there. It's so obsessed with the story. Oh, my God. Talking about some, at a rehearsal dinner for other people, talking about somebody's birthday that's in six weeks, it makes no sense. It's like when I tell people I'm from Pittsburgh and they're like, oh, my gosh,

I've been to Philly before. I'm like, those places are five hours away from each other. Totally. I mean, I just love shit like this. Like, if I go to any sort of. of like social function and some shit doesn't go down like that like I'm upset like I would just be sitting there like this is insane like just talking shit at the table with whoever I was like holding on to the table like for dear life I was like couldn't catch my breath I was laughing so hard

oh my god um all right guys well we we have such a fun episode today when we're talking about texting we could have talked about it forever forever forever let's talk about let's talk about what Tell me what you coined it this morning and I'll tell you what. Existrate Gate. Oh, exastergate. Existrate. Existrate. Last week on the episode, I said exasterbate.

And I did not know I was wrong. And I remember editing back and I was like, good big word, Ashley. Like literally did not know. And you told me someone DMG about it. It was like, just Ashley realized she said, exaster bait. And I was like, what? What about it? And then yesterday you were like, sure that I was wrong.

Bobby told you. Well, once you guys said it, I was like, oh, okay, I could picture it in my head. And I was like, it's definitely not a word that rhymes with masturbate. And yes, it's exacerbate. So that doesn't happen to me a lot. They used to happen to rain a lot more, like the wrong word usage or mispronouncing a word. So I guess my wins. I'm proud of this one.

This is my big one. Existrate. We're going to make March. Existurbate. I'm going to be like, what does that mean? But yes, we're talking about texting today. I wanted to say one thing. We did the episode last week on Weaponized Incompetence.

You guys loved it. We knew you would. And I just wanted to say something I wish I would have said in the episode of how much this happens in the workplace. And again, we're a dating podcast, but we talk about the workplace a lot. So I just wanted to say that because I saw a lot of the comments being like, this happens to me at work. And so, you know, articles and studies will show you that women tend to get fucked over more when it comes to this stuff. And it is something that predominantly men do to women in the workplace. So, again, I just saw a lot of commentary.

It was something that I had on my, I let my, on my, on my, my notes and I was remiss and not mentioning. But yes, so just wanted to say that because it's a huge, that's a huge theme. And we do plan to do more like career type episodes this year, but also, yeah, when I, I'm glad that you said, because when I think about it, when I think about like common gripes of all of my girlfriends at their jobs, it's like, I'm doing the job of five people and I never say no. And so people just pile on top of me. And it's like, I don't know how to like step back from it essentially. And it's like, if you ever did, people would just do it. I don't think you hear men say that as often. Like, I feel like I'm doing the job of five.

people and that people act like they can't do anything because I'm around and they know that I'm going to be good at it. Yeah. I think that it's a common gripe of a lot of women in the workplace. So yeah, I'm glad that you brought that up. It comes up a lot. I should tell you how funny this is we were talking about our families and last week's episode and I'm looking at a full page text message from your brother. Your brother responded to my Instagram story about last week's episode about like weaponized incompetence. And we said so many times like our brothers are so not like this. We're surrounded by so many meant. And Matt was, Matt said, you know, I would, I've never said any of these things. I would never do

any of these things. And he said, I'm so glad you guys covered this topic. And I love that your brother's like such like a thoughtful response to this. My brother does say though, like, I remember one time he said to me, this was like over the holidays or, uh, or whatever it was. He was like, is there any better glass of water than like the one mom brings to you? There's just something about it. Like, I don't know what it is. Like, I am so capable. I am high functioning. So are you. But going home and just when my mom does stuff for me, I love it. I mean, I do stuff for her too. And like I feel like I really helped out when I lived there during quarantine.

I cooked dinner all the time and I was like helping them so much. But I just, I love being on the couch and be like, mom, can you refill my water? Mom, don't count. That's why you get a mom. So you can bring, so you can leave cups around the house. I don't want to be a mom. Mom, what's in the fridge? Like, it's the only time I would yell at somebody to just tell me what's two feet away

from me. But that's why mom get tired. And they feel like the household is on their back. Weaponizing confidence against your mom. I feel like your mom's so like nurturing and loving. I got to get it in where I can. She loves to do it. You know, she loves to refill our waters.

Okay, so we wanted to joint wreck this show. It's on Hulu. It's called Life and Beth. And Amy Schumer stars in it. I think she also wrote and directed it. I don't know if she wrote every episode, but it's her show totally from her brain. And we loved it.

I had recommended it to you. I've loved every time she's acted in something. I love train rack. I also like that was it I feel pretty. I didn't love the movie. much, but I loved her in it. I loved Inside Amy Schumer. I mean, I'm just a fan of her as an actress and a writer, and I love the show so much, and it's all comedians that act in it, and so many people we knew had cameos, and I guess spoilers ahead on what it's about. You'll get the gist pretty soon,

but anyway, if you want to skip ahead and just watch it on your own without knowing anything, her mom unexpectedly passes away, and they had a really complicated relationship. And so that's kind of the main storyline and, like, what the choice. as she decides to make, she lives in New York City. She's a wine sales rep, and she kind of moves out to Long Island where she grew up and her friends are there, and Michael Sarah plays the male lead,

and I'm obsessed with Michael Sarah, everything he's ever done ever since Super Bad. And I just loved it. I told you to watch it, and you loved it too. I couldn't have loved it more. And I think you see these plot lines a lot, you know, girl in New York City leads it behind to move home and finds that like a local guy,

and I thought it was the best done version of that storyline. I thought she was so great. Michael Sarah is so funny. Everybody, there's some people that had been on our show that make cameos in it. It's just so well cast.

I just, I loved it. I can't recommend it up. I never wanted it to end. I just thought it was really so fantastic. Yeah. It's like got that sarcastic, dry, awkwardness.

I love the music. Like, they play like hardcore rap music and then they'll play very like folksy music. And I just loved it in every way. I know. I think the writing is really smart. I think the job. I wanted to, I want to re-watch it. Yes, it's very smart. I think there's like so many really

funny, like, one-liners, just lines that you're just like, wait, what do they just say? The way, deliberate is so good. I don't laugh out loud a ton. I think things are funny, watching TV. I laugh all day, every day when I'm with people. But like, yeah, I mean, I laugh more than the average person, I think, but watching TV, not as much. So I've got myself, like, laughing out loud. Not the whole time. There's also more serious moments to it. It's probably what's technically called a dromedy. It's like a dark comedy. Comedy, dromity.

Yeah. But I laughed out out really hard a few times. You know what I wanted more of was Chris DeStefano's character. Chris DeStefano was on screen for 10 seconds. I know. And I wanted more of it because the shirt he chose. He plays like a boyfriend of the moms for like 10 seconds. And it's so good.

I just want to, I want more of Chris. And because it's a Hulu originally, you get the whole season. So I binged it over two nights, last Friday and Saturday night. Big weekend for me. I did stuff. I actually did stuff this week and I did. I did stuff and then I came home and watched it. You know, I stayed up until 3 a.m.

And so you don't have to wait because it's a Hulu original. So they're like, here's the whole season. Unlike the dropout, they're just doing once a week. It's slowly killing me. Is it part of another network? That's what I realized. I feel like we should on Hulu a lot. But when they only give you a few episodes or one episode a week,

it's because it's on like FX or free form or something. Oh, I thought there was a Hulu original. I don't know. We'll double check. Don't DM us. I figure it out. We'll figure it out of our own. Also, don't DM us if you don't like our wrecks.

I've been mean to say this. You're not going to like everything that we like. It's just called having different taste and preferences in life. You're not like the same stuff always. Someone will message me that they don't like a show we recommended. They don't like a restaurant we recommended. I literally don't care. I don't care.

What is your point of this? You want an apology? No, it's to tell you that you're wrong and that they think about things in a deeper way or a better way than you do. That's the point. That's the point of opening up a message. Is that really like, that is the lamest thing ever. Like someone felt the need to tell me that they didn't like insecure. I was like, I mean, in my opinion, you have a terrible taste.

What are you hoping to gain by telling me you don't like a show that I like? I don't know. I think that people think that they're going to like open up a dialogue with you about it. It's like not about this or not. Like you're much, I'm much more likely. Yeah, there's certain things that like I'll say a thing and somebody doesn't like it and they'll slide in my DMs and like, listen, once a year, maybe I'll have a dialogue with one person about it.

But it's not going to be a show I recommended that you don't like. Well, also, and I don't mean like putting it out into the world. like even commenting on Instagram on one of our rec slides, how you felt about a show, didn't love it, loved it. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about you message me personally,

you're offended that we don't have the same taste. Do you remember that girl that went to a bar that we suggested and did an Instagram story at the bar that she did not like it and tagged us? Yes, tagged the bar too. I was like, you're a terrible person. Shitty person. Yeah, it's not great.

And these times... It's not great behavior. We hated it. We hated it. But speaking of things we didn't hate. So Life and Bath on Hulu, check that out. There is an onslaught of fictional reenactments of stories that are real. What do we call this?

Dramatizations. Sure, that, yeah. So in line with all the things that are coming out like Anna Delvey right now, we crashed on Apple TV. Unbelievable Anne Hathaway and Jared Leto play the founder and wife of the founder of WeWork. If you guys are really interested in like startups and how company grows, I mean, I think it would be hard pressed to find somebody our age that does not touch somehow by WeWork, working in a WeWork friends that work in WeWork, companies that come out of it.

There's a phenomenal documentary about WeWork and the giant crash basically of the company and the ousting of the founder, and I found it really fascinating. So I would recommend watching that and then watching We Crash on Apple TV. It's just sort of like a reimagination or reenactment of facts and things that happen. I think it's phenomenal. So I'm really enjoying that. And then also, if you guys want to watch a short docu-series, bad vegan on Netflix is great.

Did you watch it? Yeah. Oh, okay. Everybody's talking about it. Yeah, it's four parts. It's about a restaurant in New York City. This woman who opened up a raw vegan restaurant, basically how she built this huge brand. She became this sort of like superstar in that space. She met this guy and he sort of manipulated her, warped her mind. And she did a lot of really not great financial things. And it sort of just sounds like this guy was like full of shit manipulating her

and swindled millions of dollars out of her and her businesses went bust. and it's a pretty crazy story. She does star in it. So four-part series, quick watch. I really liked it. It's super interesting. It's about New York City restaurants. I feel like everybody is talking about it,

and there's just so much fraud content out there lately. Like, fraud has never been so hot. Fraud is very hot right now. It really is. It's very reminiscent of the Tinder Swindler. If you like that, of course, you will like this. Again, I try to withhold. I don't really understand how this happened.

It seems a little nuts that, like, she allowed this to happen. seems like the writing was really on the wall. I try to withhold judgment because I wasn't in the situation. So you can make your own judgments as to how this happened. But yeah, he swindled like $1.7 million from her and she lost her businesses and the whole thing just went crazy. So you guys, I think we'll really enjoy it. It's on Netflix. Bad Vegan. Check it out. I'll watch it. But, you know, I'm just like, I might be tapped on fraud for a minute. I don't, we'll see. I think I'm going to watch it. Okay. Okay, guys. We are so excited. We have such a cool topic today. Such a cool guest.

She is a Stanford and Harvard-trained psychiatrist with 25 years of clinical experience. She spent three years as the on-campus psychiatrist at Facebook. She is the co-founder of the telehealth startup Brightside and appears regularly on Good Morning America. You've seen her in GQ, Glamour, Business Insider, all kinds of shows. And her first book, Speaking in Thumbs, is out. Please welcome to the show, Dr. Mimi Winsberg. Thank you so much for having me.

Hi. I am so excited. I just got all hyped up on that intro. Because you've been talking to Rayna more. And, you know, I just, I'm very excited about this topic. We cannot talk about it enough. So we're so glad to have you. Thanks.

It's great to be here. So you wrote a book about text message behavior essentially and what we can get from people's words inside of the phone. So we would just love to just hear about like how you became interested in this in general and like got into this line of work. You're obviously incredibly smart. You really did it all. Stanford and Harvard.

Real overachiever. I'm going to do both. And then I'm going to work at Facebook. It's casual. What's funny, because the book actually emerged from kind of a convergence of my professional and personal life. So I had done all this work in digital health to look at what signals we can find about people's behavior from digital tools. And that includes text messages. You know, can a text message tell if you're depressed or if you're suicidal?

And then I was working at Facebook. And here I am working with like the inventors of the algorithm. You know, these are the guys who know how you think. and I got to see how they think. And what they would come to me with questions about was, what does this text message mean? How should I respond to this guy? And so even these people who are really the masters of the digital world

were having trouble with their digital communication. So that got me thinking. And then my own marriage came to a close and I found myself on dating apps chatting with guys. And I would joke that I could make a psychiatric diagnosis in less than 20 texts. you know, because I could see the signal in the messages. And so I thought, well, there has to be a book in this.

And so I wrote it for people because I really wanted people to feel armed with these tools. You know, that if you understand your own messages, you can be the master of your destiny, really, you know, in the sense that you can understand who you're talking to and you can understand what a text says about a person. I just love this. And we've just, it's been something we've been discussing a lot lately. for some reason lately with the guys that we've been talking to or dating or hooking up with or whoever. It's just been a lot of talk about text messaging for some reason.

And we have this friend, we were at dinner with her when we were in L.A. And she's like a text message whisper. I don't know. It just comes naturally. And she was like, telling me what to text. And I consider myself an expert as someone that's pretty good. And she was like, this is the thing I'm the best at. She was like, I'm not the best girlfriend.

Like she has a boyfriend. She's like, no, this is where I thrive. Like the text message, like the early stages. but I just think it's so important. And I hate when people write off texting, like, I'm a bad texter. Like, I just don't text a lot. It's like, it's such a major form of communication. Like, what do you mean by that?

In this day and age, it's such a primary form of communication. It's so important. That's right. You know, we started texting. Like, it really took off in 2007, right? When smartphones became. I remember my first text. Yeah, exactly.

And it became, remember when it became a verb? Oh, I text, you know? It was like, 99 words. That's so funny. You're like so hip. You're like, do you even text? But now, right now it's the predominant method of communication, particularly in our romantic relationships. I mean, it is the way we communicate. And it's not just the way we flirt initially. It's also the way we're having serious conversations later in a relationship. I mean, we even break up over text, right? So I think that's one of the messages of the book is that this is a new language. Our brains have yet to catch up to it. But it's a language. you need to speak. Because if you don't, you're going to miss things. And it actually may have effects on how your relationships play out. So I think it's a really important language to understand. I think I forget how new of a medium this is because it feels like my whole life has been

like dedicated to understanding like, did I text too much? Not enough. If I put myself out there too much, am I setting too many photos? Did I wait too long between text messages? What does this mean? Everything. I'm just like, what does this mean? Also, Ashley, I just, want to say, when you said, like, people that say they're bad at texting, there's this name that makes me laugh really hard. It says, do you ever notice that people who are bad at texting are also bad at monogamy? And I think that we can get into also, like, what it's like to have a partner that doesn't text you all day long, which I actually kind of think is cool and nice. But I think that anybody can relate to, like, pouring over text on just screenshot it to all your friends. This is the

response time. This is what he said, all that. So it's really stressful in these streets. Right. And I think that it does indicate that we're still learning how to interpret these messages. And that's what I try to do is give people a guide to. You know, it's not a how to book in the sense that it doesn't tell you how to conduct your romantic relationships or who's a good guy or who's a bad guy. I mean, because I think there's someone for everyone. But I think it does help to understand how to use this language. And it does help to understand what a person's text says about them and what your text with the person you're texting what says about your relationship. Is it going well or is it not going well? And you can see that.

in the text. In some ways, the text thread is like the rosetta stone of your relationship. You know, you can read into whether there's chemistry, whether there's compatibility. Does it bode well for the future? I know. Like, sometimes I'm texting with somebody. I'm like, I'm going to masturbate to this later. I'm going to pull these up. But it is so true. There's actually a, there's a exchange of my book that someone sent me where this woman says, I want to cut up your text messages and rub them all over my body. Oh, I'm going to use that. Okay, that's ours now. We own that.

Should we even start? I mean, I don't know how grain or we wanted to go through this. I mean, just we have general behavior on our list. I mean, I think top of mind with everybody is this like response time. Like I was, I was even on this something that we've been talking about a lot. I have so many thoughts and I was even on another podcast recently where the host had asked like, what questions do you have for Ashley? And that was one that she got a few times like, I'm talking to a slow text or like help.

Yeah. You know. And so you talked about, by the way, just so we can put ourselves in like a bit of Lane. We talked throughout the book, or you wrote throughout the book about on dating apps in the beginning stage of a relationship and then in a relationship. So maybe we focus on that. Yeah, we don't have to start there. Just like dating. Yeah. I think the rules are different as you progress, right? There's the initial stage where you're, where you're just getting to know who is the stranger. Then there's the second stage where you're forming intimacy and trust in the relationship.

And then I think there's yet a third stage where you're working out conflict over text. But as to response time, you know, I really don't think there is a right response time and you'll find plenty of written material about this is how long you should wait and this is how you should game it. And I don't think it's about that because I think people need to be their authentic selves, right? I don't think it works if you're faking being somebody else and then that's really not the person you are. But the response time and the volume of text is a measure of compatibility. So I think of it a little like a seesaw, you know, and you look at the text bubbles on each side of the phone and they should they should tip way to one side. It's a bad sign of somebody's

text, text, text, text, and there's no response. You know, you want it to kind of even out. And so I think that's a good guide is if you're with somebody who does respond slowly, slow down. If you're with somebody who responds quickly, maybe find some time to have some fast-paced banter with them and match the length and tone of your messages to your partners too. So if they're, you're, you're If they're giving you a short reply, don't overwhelm them with long ones. And there's some interesting research on this, which is that- How does that match me? Well, they should be matching you too.

And if they're not matching you, it's probably a sign that you guys aren't a great match. You know what I mean? And so my point is that this is a measure of compatibility. Yes, I love that. Measure of chemistry and compatibility. But there's interesting gender differences. So men get really overwhelmed by long text messages. they can handle about 360 characters, not words, but characters,

before the message becomes kind of the equivalent of a face tattoo and they run screaming. They like short. They just can't deal with long. You know, that's what the research is. Now, there are individual guys that probably write volumes, but the typical guy likes a short text message, whereas women tend to write longer.

Well, I think also with like questions, like, you've got to do one at a time. Like, I feel like if you send a guy three things, things in one bubble, that's a huge no-no. Like, I feel like I've had to pace myself with like, ask one thing, get answer, ask one thing, you know, if it's like you're trying to figure out plans or whatever it may be. Sure. And you bring up a good point, which is questions. I think people forget to ask questions when they're texting. And, you know, there's good research to show that asking questions makes you more likable. And that the masters of long-term relationship

do use more question marks. Do use the pronoun you and yours more often. And they're less focused on the eye, but they're more like thinking about the other person. So you can look for that in text messages too. If somebody's using a lot of eyes, that might not vote as well for a kind of more considerate partner down the road. I feel like I feel like when I read back with my text messages between some,

I text really fast. So when I am texting somebody, if I go back and read it, I just, I love like crazy, rapid fire back and forth. I love to see how funny I can be. And I'm trying to beat them to the next joke and I'm just trying to be so funny. But sometimes I'll read back my text messages and I'll realize that like somebody has asked me five or six questions about myself and I haven't asked the other person. I'm just being funny and responding to them. So it's a pitfall that I fall into when I'm flirting when I like

reread my stuff. Yeah. And I what you're speaking to is is what I call the text love languages. And I'm like you, I love the rapid fire funny banter. And I call that riffing. And what that is is you've kind of set aside time in the day just to chat with this person. And you're giving them your 100% attention. Your brain is working hard when you're doing that, right? You're completely engaged in the conversation. And I think that's a measure of attention and how much you like somebody.

You're not going to do that for somebody if you don't like them. So that's a love language in itself. Other people might prefer, you know, the frequent check-ins. during the day updates. This is a picture of what I'm having for lunch. Here's the meeting. I just, you know, giving these kinds of updates through the day. And that's not my style of texting, but some people like that, that frequent check-in. I mean, I really, this is what I've been running into recently. Like, is this person that doesn't want to, not one singular person, just someone that doesn't want to go back and forth with me and doesn't want to respond quickly and have banter. Like, I don't

want it. And it turns me off and we like lose momentum, especially with someone who, maybe they don't live in the same city or you just haven't seen them in a while. Like that's how you build momentum to me between seeing each other. And it doesn't need to be all day, every day. But when I'm texting somebody and I say something flirty especially or funny, especially, and they don't respond to me for two hours, I'm just kind of turned off. And I feel, I mean, rejected is kind of a big word. It's not that I'm like, oh, they don't like me.

But it feels a little bit like that. And they're not speaking your love language, basically. Yeah. And I think that's the key here is it's a. measure of chemistry. Also, they might just not be into me, too. Like, it could be... Maybe, but probably they have a different style.

You know, it's like being in a relationship with somebody who, you know, cleans the house and does the laundry, but doesn't like having passionate sex. You know, it's like they're nice, but it's not working for you, you know. And so I think that's a measure of text love language. And that's a subject I discuss in the book, is that there are five text love languages. And you have to find somebody who speaks your... language or who's willing to anyway. Okay, well, let's talk about what the five are because I'm so anxious to see which of them I am. Yeah. Well, so the first is just actually compliments. You know,

so it's like the words of Gary Chapman's words of affirmations that some people like to get a lot of compliments over texts. And the second is what we talked about riffing, you know, where you're doing that rapid back and forth, funny kind of banter. And the third would be spoon feeding, which is what I was referring to as, and these are words I've made up, but spoofing. feeding. You know, were you giving the person updates through the day? Here's my dog, chasing the ball, and constantly updating your partner as to what you're doing. And then nudging is the fourth one, where you are maybe giving them little reminders or check-ins that you're thinking about them and you're thinking about what they're going through. And the last one is nooking, which is,

you know, maybe more the equivalent of sexting or sort of romantic tit-chat over text, but much more physical in its nature. Well, thanks for explaining all those. We love that. We love that. that we definitely want to get into those more in depth. But I still just have to ask, don't you feel like it can be an indicator of someone that just is not that interested? Like, that's why they're taking so long to respond. That's why they're only checking in every couple of days just to make sure you're still on their bench.

Like, they just don't. For sure. I mean, I think it depends. Again, this is we, we need to kind of distinguish, is this at the very beginning of a relationship? Or is this once you know that this is somebody who actually is into you and is, you know,

that you're in a relationship with. And so I think you need to, You need to distinguish between those two. But absolutely, you know, the level of attention that we pay to each other is a reflection of how we feel about our relationships. And our brains are really good at picking up on this in person. If you're at a bar chatting with somebody, you can tell if they're into you by how they're looking at you, their body language, all kinds of things. And over text, we have to use different clues to understand if somebody's into us. And that's part of what I get into in the book is trying to recognize that.

A main question that we see come up a lot and that we, you know, have ourselves is this, let's say, early stages situation that you may have, not in a committed exclusive relationship or whatever it may be. And it's like you are really enjoying them in person. Do you have the banter? You have the chemistry. But it like falls apart when the texting. And so I think it's hard for people to reconcile. Like, we're great in person. The sex is great. We laugh. We have fun. But I want to continue this via text. And they're not. matching my energy is this. Is that a solvable problem? Yeah. And you don't want to bring up to somebody because they can't. Right. Gotcha. Well,

and I think that that does get into communication about needs, right? Is it possible to explain to the person, hey, this is important to me and can they do this? Or can they reassure you that, no, I'm not good at this, but it doesn't change the way I feel about you, you know? And so, you know, no relationship is going to be 100% perfect. We have to make some compromise somewhere. And that could either be a deal breaker for you or not.

You know, for me, I like that riffing. And so it's tricky if somebody doesn't like to riff. It's kind of a requirement. What was the type of love language you called it where somebody's like checking it all day with like a message? Spoon feeding. So to me, like I feel like for me, if I'm going to be in a relationship to somebody,

I need to explain to them early on how much I hate that and don't like it. I like to be fully focused on what I'm doing. Do not write a picture of your lunch. or your dog. Not in the middle of the day. So for me, like to commute, I'm busy. We're busy.

I feel like Ashley and I, when we're together, we're like really in it. We don't have the kind of work environment where we're like kind of work. I'm not going to respond to you. My friends know, I don't respond to them all day long

when Ashley and I are on tour. I'm not going to call you after we get off stage. I'm just not going to do it. I need somebody to understand. It's not that I don't like them. It's not that I'm not into them. I don't have the energy. I'm focused on work.

And I think that if you communicate that early on, that this doesn't mean I don't like you because I really like to riff. Ashley sees my face from like a guy like text me and lights up and I'm just in it and I like can't stop. But for me, I try to reserve that for like the evening times. Yeah. Because otherwise you're not going to get my attention and I ignore people all day. So I think that like for me, like you were saying up people that don't like message you back.

For me like if you need that for me all day long, I'm probably not your girl because I'm not going to do that with you all day long. But if you understand it doesn't mean that I don't like you, then that's fine. We're great. Yeah. No. And I think it's these are conversations. to have into a relationship about how to meet each other's needs, right?

What was the nudger again? Well, nudging is more, you know, when somebody's asking you, like, how'd that meeting go? Okay. Questions about your day or checking in or sending somebody articles like, oh, here, here's this New York Times article. Oh, here, check this video out. And, you know, and so it's that kind of level of communication, which some people love, right? And others don't like as much.

Yeah. I think it's all good. Like, I love that somebody would check it and send me like an article or something, but as long as you know that I'm not going to respond. for like five hours. Well, I think, I like that, I feel like there's a parallel between the actual love languages where you're doing a bunch of them at once, especially if you're like really in it with somebody. Like, we're sexting, we're texting. We are showing pictures of our lunch and our dogs. Like it's kind of, when you're really in it, it's, it's a lot of them going on at once,

which I'm here for. Like, I want it. Well, the parallel, of course, is this is based on Gary Chapman's love languages that I think you guys probably are familiar with. But same thing. We use all of them in our lives. It's just that we tend to, as individuals, emphasize one or two. as being more important and things that we want to get from our partner and not something that we want to have to rely on friends for. Yeah. I mean, at least for me, though, I feel like an all-night-long text sash. I like it. Yeah. I like a lot of banter. And I think Ashlyn and I are so funny. And I want you to think that I'm funny. I made this, uh, Axis. I did, I do this thing. I love it. I love graphs. Show me the graph.

Stop. I was wondering. I can't look at your accent. No, I was wonder what Mimi would think of this. So I feel like there's a, I feel like there's an axis. I feel. I feel like there's an axis. One side is not into you all the way up to into you. And then the other side is essentially text behavior, whether it's intentional or it's not intentional. So you fall into like four graphs where if someone's into you and it's not intentional, i.e., it's their natural behavior. That's just their text love language at work.

And it doesn't match yours. But it doesn't mean they're not into you. They're just like what you might call a bad texter, but they're just utilizing their own. And then there's... So I would break it down into interest and skill. So one axis is interest and one axis is skill. and you can have somebody who's highly interested but low skill

and another person who's highly interested in high skill and then, you know, so forth. You want to show her your little picture? Well, and then like, so if somebody was really into you, high interest and high skill, that means they're like trying. Well, to me that meant they're like trying to like, okay, yeah, you're right. I mess my own thing up.

But then no interest and no skill means they just don't. Well, that's a non-starter. They don't give a hug. starter, right? And then low interest and high skill means they're intentionally trying to show you they don't like you. But anyway, here's my little craft. Okay, that's good. That's good. I bring up a couple of graphs like that, metaphorical graphs like that in the book. And one is chemistry versus compatibility. So, you know, chemistry, of course, is that spark and how easy it feels to communicate with somebody at first. And, you know, do you have good physical chemistry and

so forth. And then compatibility is how easy is it to spend a weekend together? How do your life values align and so forth? And you can definitely have a relationship with high chemistry and low compatibility. And that's going to be the smoking hot, not very long lasting relationship. Yeah, I slept with him. And then you can have the high compatibility, low chemistry, which feels a little more like friendship. And you're like, oh, can I make this work? You know, he's such a good guy and get along so well, right? Yeah, we have sex and the missionary position only. I don't have sex with that guy, but we're friends. And then, of course, the ideal is both. And I think the second graph like that is this idea of intimacy and independence. So some people like a very

intimate relationship, but that doesn't mean they want to be joined at the hip and doing everything together. Like I personally like a lot of intimacy, but then also a lot of independence where we can each do our own thing. And some people might want a totally dependent relationship. with not a lot of intimacy where you're together all the time, but you're not actually really connecting in a deep level. Mm-hmm. For sure. Okay, so, like, I would love to move on to the part of, like,

what we can suss out from people's text messages. So the words they say and how we can figure out what they mean, because, like, I was saying when I look back at my own, I'm like, I could be asking more questions. Does this make me look like a self-centered person that I'm sitting here just answering all of your questions? So early on, if you're trying to decide, is this person even worth going out on a first date with

or maybe a second date? it's really good to pay attention to their text messages. And to treat the text as a little bit of an interview, you know, this is where you can find out some things about the person that you might not be able to find out in other ways. And one of the things I talk about is how to identify Big Five personality factors. And the Big Five is a personality inventory that tends to be very stable over a person's lifetime. And it will determine things like, are you extroverted, are you introverted?

you know, how open are you to new experience versus kind of more liking things predictable? And then are you conscientious? Are you going to do what you say you're going to do? Are you agreeable? Do you like to go with the flow or are you a little more contrarian? And then how neurotic are you, you know, which was going to predict like how uptight or sort of difficult you're going to be to get along with in the long run in a relationship? Turns out our words and even our punctuation in text messages will all say things.

about our big five personality factors. And so it's pretty cool to look at early text messages and be able to make some good, educated guesses about what this person's going to really be like when you get to know them and they're not just on their best behavior. Hold on. So introvert versus extrovert,

agreeable versus a contrarian, neuroses. Conscientious, which is like, how much are you going to do what you say you're going to do? And what's the fifth I'm missing? And the fifth one that you didn't, is openness to experience. So, you know, are you like up for adventure, novelty seeking, that kind of thing. Yeah.

The thing that's like I find myself in these situations is like, I like to know what's going on. I like to know what the plan is. Like our lives are busy. Yeah. See, I think what you're after there is somebody who's conscientious because a conscientious person is going to be really clear about what their plan is and they're going to follow through on it. And they're not going to be flaky. So you want to look for conscientiousness.

And, you know, people who aren't conscientious are going to use a lot of future tense. like will and they're going to use cognitive discrepancies like lots of coulda show do whatas in their texts early on you want to avoid the person who uses lots of kuda shoulda or will or yeah you want somebody who can be more firm in and commit to things not commit to a long-term relationship but commit to following through on their actions. To showing up yeah yeah yeah okay so let's talk about tells for all these tells for all of these Yeah, yeah. Well, extroverts not surprisingly use words more like drinks, restaurant, dancing, but they'll also use the word. I'll also use the word mouth and other more often, you know,

whereas introverts tend to use more emojis. Like extroverts don't use as many emojis. They'll use thumbs up, winking face, smiley face, but introverts will use more obscure emojis. And neurotic people are going to use some of those dramatic face emojis like the loudly crying phase or the like, I don't even know what some of these are called weary face, wailing face. I don't know. But those, you know, Edward Monk, the scream face, that's kind of maybe a sign you're dealing with somebody a little bit more neurotic. My emojis are dramatic.

The mouth that's like the squiggly and it's like, whir, like, I use it all the time. Yeah. Wait, this is so funny because I just said the other day, our kids these days not using emojis anymore because this guy I've been talking is a little younger than me. And he uses zero emojis. None. Never seen emojis. That's my kind of guy. I don't use emojis either. I'm like, use your words.

Don't give me these canned emojis. I don't know. I think I just feel like they're so expressive because I like that face. That face is like, I don't know what the fuck is going on. It makes you laugh, but you think it's an extroverted person uses no emoji. Not no emojis. They just use them. They use no, not no. Just, you know, averages would say that introverts use them more than extroverts.

Okay. Maybe just kids these days aren't using them as much. Yeah. Okay. And then I think, you know, the kinds of emojis we use, too, like, so agreeable people will use hearts in all of their forms. And so, you know, because they're trying to get along, right? They're trying to show you like, everything's good here. Puntuation's kind of interesting, too. I mean, what about these people that put periods at the end of every sentence? Crazy. So to me, it's like, it feels, it's like my dad, you know, but that's like a dad. So it's like, do we even count him? He's like 70. Yeah, that's a dad thing. But then I have a girlfriend who's, she's that, like, I had. to learn that she does not seem happy on text and it's what it is and that's her style and it is periods and it is no emojis. You'd think she was pissed and she's not. You know what I mean? But then what about the person that uses all the exclamation points, you know, that we can't. But that's me. Okay. Let's talk about me. Well, see, too many exclamation points to me. You know, it's a little bit of pay attention. There's a little pay attention to me in there. You know, I mean, maybe that's what you're after. But I think that that can be a sign of,

if overuse could be assigned a little bit of narcissism or insecurity. Great. Great, great, great. No, I don't think anybody would look at my text messages and think that I'm overused. Also, Ashley has wheeled me back from too many exclamation points. I mean, professional emails. I'm like, great, we can't. Yeah.

Like all caps? All caps. All caps can be a little bit off-putting sometimes, you know. But anything, just used intermittently, no big deal. I think when you start to see a certain tendency, the person who's putting lots of ellipsy, in their in their text, the dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. Well, that's like a little more flirty, you know,

don't want to be pinned down, open to possibility, but don't want to be pinned down, right? So I give people clues as to what some of this punctuation can mean about the person they're texting with early on before you have other clues to go off. What are some other towels early? So you say you can like get on a dating app and in 20 exchanges, like get a pretty good sense

of what somebody's personality is and what they're looking for too. And, you know, and I think the way to do that is, that's not just going to happen on its own. So I give people tools for what to do in order to extract that information. And that includes things like one asking questions, of course, but two, mirroring. You know, the more you mirror somebody's style, the more that's going to allow them to be more like themselves. And so you do want to try to draw people out using techniques like mirroring. And then I give people some red flags to look for too early on.

You know, because I think we've all read a lot about attachment style, you know, anxious attachment and avoid an attachment. And it's good to be able to recognize that, right? And so because you don't really want to end up in a situation where somebody's ghosting you or so you get to involve with somebody and then it turns out they really have a dysfunctional attachment style. So some of the early signs of that are things like what I call instimacy,

you know, too much too soon. It seems like the person is trying to establish the fact that you've known each other forever right away and maybe they're doing some love bombing or giving you way too much information. But I think that those are typically signs of a less secure attachment. And controlling behavior early on too can be another sign of not so secure attachment. So the person who doesn't even ask you, well, do you want to meet?

They just tell you we're meeting versus presuming that it's something you might have a choice in. Yeah. I mean, I think that words are so important. And when I see even a prompt on a dating app that feels like you better impress me. better, yeah, like you, like, it feels like there's a demand and your prompts. Like, I'm exing out immediately. Like, this is so telling. Like, words matter. You chose these words, you know? Absolutely. I need you to be this and that. A hundred percent agree. And, you know, that is usually borne out of a sense of fear and insecurity, right? And there's an attempt to control the situation

too soon. What about somebody who, on a dating app early on, like Ashley and I talk about this a lot. We, Ashley and I can make fun of ourselves and each other and our friends all day long, I really don't like it with a new person. I don't like feeling like I'm nagged. So I'm curious if you have any like insights into like if the person sort of like opens up with a nag or they neg you really soon, like do you feel like that's a bad sign? Absolutely. Absolutely.

Yeah. You know, that's controlling behavior. It's putting you down to get the upper hand. And it's something I talk quite a bit about in speaking in thumbs as well is this idea of a power gradient and how you can recognize power gradient in text conversations. because oftentimes one person sort of has the upper hand in a relationship or in a conversation. And learning what the language of power is is pretty important. In a good relationship, that power shifts back and forth, and that's exciting and that's fun, right?

You know, your turn, my turn. And there's not a clear individual who's controlling the whole thing. But I think that there is a very recognizable language of power. And when a guy is putting you down in order to make you feel insecure and get the upper hand, bad sign. Yeah, and that's coming from people. We'd love to be roasted. Like, it's such a turn on for me that someone would make fun of me when it feels like we've already gotten to know each other a tiny bit. Like, the neg right out of the gate is such a red flag.

It's also interesting to look at people's stress responses over text too, right? And sometimes you can see evidence of that really early on in interactions where they get stressed by just a small miscommunication or not knowing something, you know, and that's going to be predictive of what that person's like to be in a long-term relationship with, too. What about that you mentioned oversharing? What, like, what do you find that that isn't? Like, when somebody starts to just give me like too much information, I feel a little turned off by it, but I'm wondering like what the psychology behind that is.

That's usually an anxious attachment style, you know, and so they're trying to get too close too quickly. Is that a manipulation tactic or some people just be a nerds? No, I don't, I don't really, I think rarely these things are outward manipulative. I think it's just people sort of showing their true colors, you know, and that it does, this stuff does kind of filter through. And sort of that's one of the premises of the book is that that our text messages are peepoles into our psyche, you know, and that there's only so much we can control. We're going to be ourselves in the way we communicate.

And so it's an opportunity to see who this person is and get more specific about knowing yourself, knowing what kind of person you want to be with and not wasting your time. It is so true. It's just about finding somebody who kind of like matches your energy. I just like, I'm a weird person. I just want somebody to match my weirdness, my brand of weirdness. And some of the things we're talking about, like, cornyness or oversharing, people might love that. Some people step up to the plate for negative and they love it.

And that's what they're like vibes. I hate it. Nothing will make me stop talking to you faster. So I think it is just so much about binding somebody that like matches your style and not all of it is so insidious. I do think people can be too charming and you've got to look out for those people too a little bit. Yeah. It's interesting too, like gender differences, how those play out. I mean, in general, women feel like if there's a lot of texting going on in a relationship,

things are going really well. And men think, okay, if there's not a lot of texting going on in the relationship, things are going really well. What? So there is a little bit of a rug, right?

I would be the mistake that our relationships are going terrible because you will never stop getting text messages to me after 5 p.m. I'm saying the people that I'm talking to must think we're going great because they are not texting me enough. So I guess they think we're doing great. I think we just are wired differently for communication, right? We will emphasize communication, men maybe under-emphasized communication. Okay, so the communication thing actually reframes it for me better because I'm thinking

like, if somebody's not texting you back, they don't like you. That's just how I assume, like, if a man is like, she's not texting me, it must be going great. Like, why would a man think that? Well, because he thinks that there's no need for communication. So everything's going great. You know, we're not having to talk. This is just a lot.

to handle. I mean, I'm so funny. Before we move on from dating, I just want to ask, I want to wrap it up. Is there any other, like,

red flag tales from, like, the beginning? You're just, you haven't even met the person. Like, well, lying. I mean, nobody wants to be with a liar.

Yeah, I want to talk about lies. Yeah. So I would have a lies. I give people, I give people tools to recognize deception. Yes.

I'd say a couple things that aren't always predictive of lying, but they're associated with it. And that's when you're dropping the first person pronoun a lot. So you drop the eye. And basically,

liars will do this to distance themselves from the statement. I don't know if you guys watch Tinder, Swindler, but I've been thinking about it this whole time. He had, you know, he kept flashing up his text messages. And it's like he was using,

he had a lot of the signs of deception that I outlined in the book. What do you, so give me an example of how they would remove the eye. You know, it's that sort of shorthand way of speaking of like running late instead of I'm running late. But,

but I mean, we'll do that quickly when, when we're in a hurry. But when it's, done kind of repeatedly in an explanation. It's often because the person's trying to emotionally distance from the statement because it's actually not true. The other thing they might do is put in way too much detail or not in enough detail, but the detail lacks kind of an emotional feeling. It's very factual versus emotional. So it's this sort of text that ends up being devoid of person

and emotion. And that's often an indication of a lie. Other tells can be too much of the, to be honest, or, you know, like putting in a lot of those sorts of phrases, those liars tend to do that as well. Again, these things aren't true across the board. But I think if you're wondering over time, is this person really being honest with me, I do give you some of the tools to spot liars. And these are tools that are, you know, used by the FBI. Okay. No, I was really glad I wanted to talk about liars. I also want to talk about, here's something that I really don't like. And I'm wondering if you guys like, if you have any, like, feedback. I don't like when somebody uses my name in a text message repeatedly.

It creeps me out. I don't like it. I don't know. It feels very salesy, doesn't it? It's like a sales technique. Yes. There's, yeah, there's salesmen do that. Somebody when we have not met and somebody's like, well, Raina, I don't, I don't like it. There's somebody who I text with quite often to use my name in sentences a lot and I've said to him like, I don't like it. Please stop. I really hate it. But before we've met, Raina, how's your day going? I hate it. It really creeps me out. I don't. So what is that? Well, I think some people have been trained to use names, like I said, as a way to bond. or a sales technique, it definitely can be overused.

Or maybe they're texting with a lot of people and they're just trying to keep them all straight. I don't know. He's like, this is Rana. But I feel like it's trying, it's trying too hard in my mind. You know, it feels like if the conversation, it feels not natural. It feels not natural.

It feels like it's designed to be genuine. Like the person I called out for this was like, I've trained myself to, he said I'd like train myself to do this because it sounds a little more like I'm making an. effort. And I'm like, I don't ever stop using my name. I hate it. Yeah. I mean, my favorite thing is like if I say something ridiculous and someone goes, Ashley, you know what I mean? Like, that's when I like it. Yeah, you do. Right. Like, it's, I totally get what you mean. It's, it's very criss. Hey, Ashley, how's your day going? Well, but that's also though, in particular,

it feels fine for a first text from a person from an app or something like that. Like first text. I like my name. If it's the first text, you're sending me after we've exchanged numbers like on an app or something. Like, hey, Ashley, like, yeah. Of course. It's question of how often, how often it's happening. Yeah. And I think, I think to your point, right? The people are, have, I just did it right there. I know. I was like, oh, no, I like it. I like it sometimes. No, I think, I think people have trained themselves to do that. They've trained themselves to use names over and over again as a way to bond. And it may be because they're feeling less confident about their ability to bond in other ways, you know, whereas a joke is going to go way farther in

terms of bonding. Some kind of affiliate of humor is going to do way more than using a person's name. That totally tracks. Some people don't know. Yeah. So such a big thing is the first text post date, you know, and we like it that night. I like it on my way out the door. I want you to be looking at my ass and sending me a text message. Yeah. But yeah, like in terms of how fast, what's to say. To me, like we went out. We had a great time. If we both had a great time, I don't think it should be two days. But yeah, it's often, don't you think it's often an indication of how great a time you had? I think if you had a really great time, most people feel inclined to text sooner. And there's no reason to wait.

And I don't think women should feel like they have to wait if they haven't heard from the guy. You know, there's no gender rules here about who goes first. Yeah, I think it's nice to just like follow up with a thank you or whatever. Someone did that for me recently and I felt really touched by it. I had sort of gone out of my way to see somebody. And like as soon as I left, I was like, I wonder when I'll hear from him. And I got a text right away. and I had made like a huge effort to see this person.

So I thought it was really appreciated. Yeah. And the truth is if you've had a really great time, there's kind of no doubt in either person's mind if you had a good click, right? And so getting that first text is going to feel very natural. I totally agree. And I love an emphatic. Like if I had fun, I'll send a text message.

And if I enjoyed you or you doesn't be nice for me, I'll say thank you. And I like an exclamation point and something flirty. And if the person doesn't match that or send that back, like that's okay. I don't feel embarrassed. I feel like I was being authentic. to myself in a moment. And you're tapping into something that I think is so universal, which is this anxiety of not getting communication back.

That's something we can all relate to is what to do when you haven't heard from somebody that you expected to hear from. And part of what I hope to do with the book is take some of the anxiety out of that, you know, and kind of arm you with some of the tools to both understand the person you're with, but also to understand communication patterns and how to set up the ones that you want to have in your relationship. if this is somebody who doesn't communicate

in a way that reduces your anxiety, probably not a good long-term partner for you. That's the thing. I think people struggle with like, but it's just texting. Like how can, you know, and it's, I don't know.

Like I had a girlfriend that was dating this guy and he didn't text her all through the week. Like it was weekends only. They didn't hang out during the week. And she just had kind of convinced herself, like he's busy and he's got work. And we just kind of, I'm like, no, it sounds like boundaries to me.

You know, he had like another girlfriend. Like he had like a Y for some shit. Like it was very like the writing was on the wall for me, I thought. Right, right. Well, people find all kinds of ways to rationalize something that they want. But, you know, I think really if you do care about somebody and you are kind of building a long-term relationship, obviously there are good constructive techniques to use in communication.

And those would include, you know, being curious, asking questions, being really patient with the other person, trying to be understanding, trying to accept them for who they are. And these are the kinds of practices that play into our communications from the start of a relationship. And one of the things that I talk about in the book is the way you can go back and look at your text threads with somebody that you've been involved with, maybe during the relationship, maybe after the relationship is ended. But you can go back and look. And that text thread is kind of the electronic medical record of your relationship. Like you can see the inflection points. You can see where things started to deepen or get more involved.

and you can see where maybe you started to have trouble. And I think it's really helpful to go back and do this, especially after relationships demise where you may want to learn, okay, what lessons can I take away from this and bring into my next relationship? And having that written record, it can be useful to see, okay, this is what went wrong. We weren't communicating during the week in your friend's instance. I want more transparency in my future relationships. Yeah. Sometimes I think we're dating somebody.

Everybody can relate to that feeling of like you send the text message and like 10 minutes go by, 15 minutes go by. no response, 20 minutes, you're totally chill. And within an hour, it's this all-consuming, like, is this person going to message me back? Like, what I said was so funny or so interesting. Or I just asked you a question. And it's so all-consuming sometimes. And then you go back and reread text messages with somebody, you pull the screen over to see the timestamps.

And you're like, okay, so maybe this person, like, wasn't that into me. And that wasn't responding. And I'm always responding in a timely manner. And they're not. And so you had mentioned before, like, how to deal with that. Do you have, like, specific language that you think is, like, like really great. It's two things. One is looking at yourself honestly and saying, okay, am I too anxious here? You know, and I'm not saying that's the case, but I think it is worth looking at your own attachment style.

And if you do tend to be anxiously attached, that's something you have to work on on your own. But I think if there's a realistic expectation of response and, you know, this person is chronically undermeeting that, you know what I mean, making you wait too long, they're either sort of trying to get the upper hand in a controlling way or they're just not a communicative. enough partner for you. And I think it's time to think long and hard about whether this is really the right partner for you, especially if you've brought it up with them and said, you know, I can use a little more reassurance here. Just send me a good night text. That's all I need. Not complicated. Not hard to do. Give me that little bit of reassurance. I think what people run into

also is like noticing when it changes from the honeymoon phase to like trouble and, you know. And so and then again, like we talked about it at the beginning, like you almost feel silly to bring it up because you're like, your texting has changed. Like it sounds crazy coming out of your mouth, but it's not. It's not. It's not. And it's almost the canary and the coal mind. You know, it can be the most sensitive barometer of how things are going. And so that's why I think looking for those inflection points in the text is important. Is this person pulling away? Are things deepening? You know, are we having more disagreement or conflict? And you can actively use that to write things in your relationship. You know what I mean? If you notice that there's a reflection in your written

communication of something going awry, that can be an opportunity to make a change in your relationship that will help things get back on course. You should be with somebody that you feel comfortable bringing this stuff up and openly communicating with them and you trust them. It's not crazy to say like, hey, it used to kind of be like this and I've noticed a shift. Like, is everything cool? Is anything going on we can talk about? Like, it just doesn't. No, I'm so glad you brought up because I think that like we always say like, you know your person's texting style. And like you can try to explain it to a friend and be like, you didn't text me back all day.

And your friend's like, just relax. It's not a beautiful, but you're like, but I know what our text style is like. And I know what they're like. And I mean, I can tell first thing in the morning of Ashley, like, got a good night's sleep. She had bad nightmare. She's in a bad mood. I can just tell. I can tell immediately.

And I know I'll just wait it out for like an hour or two. And then she'll be like, I'm feeling really anxious today. And vice versa. Like I wake up and I'm just like business, business, business. Like I had to do this thing the other day. I was very stressed out about filming this thing. And like, she was trying to joke with me. And I kept being like, can you just answer me for this thing.

I'm just stressed out. And I finally just said to her like, I'll be like more fun after this. But you just, I think it's important to point out like you're not crazy if you think that somebody's text message style has changed because you know better than anybody what someone else's text style is like. No, absolutely. You know, absolutely. I couldn't agree with that more.

And that's part of what I teach people to do in the book is to go back, look at those text exchanges, look for the inflection points. Even maybe after the relationship's over, you can see, okay, where did I miss something? Where did I? How do I? this so that I understand better what the arc was and how do I do this differently next time. And again, of course, sometimes it's not a huge deal. You just know I'm in a bad mood or like it's, it goes back to normal shortly thereafter. I think it's like the long, you don't want to over-

pattern. You don't want to over-correct. It's more larger trends. Yeah, yeah, because sometimes people are busy or they are in a bad mood. It has nothing to do with you. I feel like it's when you feel like it's happening a lot and it's a pattern or a new normal. Right. It's right. Do you have to bring myself back to center and say like sometimes you're just off for a few hours. Like sometimes you and your partner like maybe this is just like a bad day and off day. I'm laughing because I like I was dating somebody very casually years ago. We were just sleeping together. And there was like a very clear and instantaneous shift in his vibe and the way he was texting me.

And it's just so fine. We're friends now. He told me I babed too soon. Oh yeah. I like we, I always say and I babe too soon. He said that I babed too soon. And you can look back into the text, I did refer to him as like babe one night. Oh, my God.

And like that is the, that was the inflection point where he was like, I don't want this. And in my defense, I was drunk and trying to go over there and have sex. So I wasn't trying to like set up a nice dinner. It was 11 o'clock at night. In my defense. Yeah. Well, and so it does sometimes come down to word choice and the names of affection. We call each other.

And when those are introduced, right, this stuff ends up being kind of important. for people. Can we talk about these landmines? Yeah, so you and I, when we were on the phone, we talked before we did the interview, and we talked about just sort of like, when you're in the text message conversation with somebody, and all of a sudden it's like a fight,

and you're like, how did this happen? Like, how did we spiral into this? And I think that so much can be misinterpreted via text. So we talked about sort of like landmines to avoid. Yeah. And I have a whole chapter devoted to that called toxic texting. And, you know, what I talk about here are good practices and bad practices.

And a lot of this research is drawn from real leaders in the couples therapy space like John Gottman. And he's famous. John Gottman runs the Love Lab. And he's famous for being able to analyze just a very, very small snippet of a couple's conversation and predict with remarkable accuracy whether that couple is going to get divorced. Divorced in seven years or divorced in 20 years, right? Some of us would prefer not to know.

But basically, you know, it comes down to the techniques we use in conversation. And he talks about the four horsemen of the apocalypse. These are criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. Stonewalling is where you like put your fingers in your ears and you're like, la, la, la, la, I don't hear you. So basically, you know, using criticism, being contemptuous towards your partner, again, getting defensive when they call you out on something or pretending you don't hear them. These are all really bad signs. And they manifest in text, right? You can see the stuff in text messages just as easily as you can see it in verbal conversations.

Instead, I give people for good practices to use, which are curiosity, ask questions, practice acceptance of the person, you know, don't try to have them be somebody that they're not. Again, things that are very intuitive, but empathy and respect. Like, we shouldn't have to remind ourselves to do these things, but sometimes we do. And so, again, you can look at your text conversations and see, am I employing good practices or bad practices here? And this is going to very often dictate the course of a fight and whether it'll come to a good resolution or whether it will fester and not not resolve. I mean, do you think people shouldn't be fighting via text? I mean, Rain and I, I think, start to get a little tense. She'll usually call me on the phone.

I call Ashley immediately. Because I'll do a little more via text. I know with the, I know we need to talk. I'm not avoiding it. Like, but I will go a little harder. Yeah. And then she's like, nope, I won't do it. I can cut it off because I know that I know how, I mean, this is like my business part of my best friend, my family. So I know exactly how we will spiral out of control. And yes, we will go via text all day and I can't do it. I've gotten better with other people also. I'm just nobody's going to do it with me. I'm not going to spiral all day long on a text message throughout when we misinterpreted each other and things get lost in tone. I'd rather pick a misinterpreting. Yeah. So I think there's pros and cons. I think with the text,

there's a lot of opportunity for misinterpretation because we don't have the voice cues, the eye contact. You can't like in a romantic situation. You can't hold the person's hand or give him a hug or, you know, do the reassuring things you do if you're in person. The benefit of having some discussions, let's just say heated discussions over text is that you can pause and, you know, think before you reply, maybe show it to somebody and say,

okay, how can I be more measured in my response and not be quite as reactive as you might be in person? So I think there are pros and cons. Yeah, if you do that, good. Yeah, right, right. If you're just typing. No, bad, bad for sure, because you're missing the cues

to see how that's making the person feel. not text when you're feeling anger in your blood. That's what I'm talking to myself here. Yeah. No, and the other thing you need to do is you need to read that text actually allowed and think about how it's going to sound when that other person's reading it, not just how it sounds in your own head.

Because very much, we're very much in our own heads when we're texting. You know what I mean? And you need to see it objectively. How's this going to read? By reading it aloud, it can sometimes make it seem a little harsher than it actually, you actually intended it to be.

Yeah. And I kind of wanted to include in the book like a sidebar of 10, subjects you shouldn't have over text, you know, 10 conversations you shouldn't have over text. Of course, I didn't put that in, but there probably are things that just need to be done in person. Yeah, I think you should think about who you're dealing with and what you're like as well and what the situation calls for. So I have a friend in particular that I know that like, if we get, I'm not talking about Ashley at all, but if we get these long text messages conversations, she's just going to latch on to whatever I say and keep arguing with me. She'll find something in every single text that she

doesn't like and she will latch on to it and have a fight. And at some point you have to say stop. I'm not doing this anymore. And so that's a person I will get on the phone with. If it is like just something really that can be taken out of context, yes. If it's if it's something that I need a little more time to think about, of course, I will put it in writing. I think I'm a huge fan of the email of the email. But I think if it's a really heated argument, I would rather have it on the phone. I don't want to do it via text message.

Or in person, in person, too. You know, so much of our conversations and our communication is happening asynchronously now. and that this has tremendous impact on the quality of our lives, that we feel this, like, at our core. You know, we feel the quality of our relationships as reflected through our asynchronous communication and that having better asynchronous communication and better communication practices in general is going to seriously enhance the quality of our lives. You know, we just will feel better. And so that's, I mean, that's part of why I wrote the book is to kind of level that up, to get people to level it up because I know it's such a source of anxiety and it's such a source of bad feeling for people.

and ultimately these tools should be there to make us feel better or not worse, right? This was really amazing and interesting and I have read your book and I loved it. I thought it was really just tons of advice and examples. So I guess tell people where they can find a book, your website, anything else so that they can find you. Sure, yeah.

No, I think one really fun thing about the book is just that it's, as you said, it's ripe with screenshots. So you get to see all these people's text messages and commentary on it. And it's often not the experience we have of looking over somebody else's shoulder to see their text. And I show my text as well. You can buy the book at your local bookstores on Amazon through any online retailer.

It's called Speaking in Thumbs. My website is Dr. Winsberg.com, DR.winsberg.com. And there's information on the book there as well. And you can follow me on Twitter at M. Winsberg on Instagram at Text Whisper. And, yeah, we'd love to hear what people think of the books. So keep the feedback coming. Okay. Great.

Thank you so much. It was so great getting to talk to you. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for having me. And you guys know where to find us. Everything is at Girls Gotta Eat Podcast.com. You can get merchandise and get tickets to shows where we still have tickets left.

And you can follow us on Instagram at Girls Got to Eat Podcast. I am Ash Hess. Raina is rana.com. And Girls underscore Gotta Eat on Twitter. And we will see you next week. We got a hot one. We're going to see you this week also. Have a good week, guys.

Bye.