Girls Gotta Eat - The Man Who Made Me Rethink My Marriage with Amber Rae

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

Amber Rae was married when she looked into the eyes of a stranger and instantly fell in love, and she's here to tell her story. The bestselling author shares the truth about her marriage and lack of intimacy, what she was lying to herself about, the problem with "good on paper guy," being a people pleaser, and how falling for someone else while married turned her world upside down. We talk about how everything transpired, how her husband watched her fall in love in real time, backlash and losing friends over her decisions, and more. Before Amber joins us, we're recapping Ashley's special filming and Rayna seeing an old hookup 15 years later. Enjoy! Follow Amber on Instagram at @heyamberrae, and get her book Loveable. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for live show tickets and more. Thank you to our partners this week: Square Space: Get a free trial at https://squarespace.com/gge and use code GGE for 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Better Help: Get 10% off your first month at https://betterhelp.com/gge. Function: Our first 1000 listeners get a $100 credit toward their membership at https://functionhealth.com/GGE or use code GGE100. Smart Mouth: Get a special discount on your next purchase at http://www.smartmouth.com/GGE. Rocket Money: Cancel your unwanted subscriptions at https://rocketmoney.com/gge. Saks Fifth Avenue: Head to Saks Fifth Avenue or saks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So four years ago, while married, I looked into the eyes of a stranger and I had this knowing feeling of he's your person. This podcast is a dear media production. Hi guys. Hi guys. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Got to eat. Welcome back. Hopefully we're coming off in Eagles win. Maybe.

Maybe. I was to say, we are playing the Vikings. Steelers beat the Vikings. Yeah. And while we're here, thank you guys for coming out to my Minneapolis shows. I had a great time. Raina. I just hated being there without you.

I love those people so much. I love Minneapolis. I love performing. Truly the best. You have been breadcrumbing living in certain places, but Minneapolis, you hard were like, I will live here. I feel so safe there. We will build sets in different cities and you won't know we're in the same cities.

You'll be in Minneapolis. I'll be in New York. I just, I told that when I got a stage. I was like, I feel so safe, you guys. It's giving Canada. We're close. We can get up there if we need to escape. But it just, it's such a great city.

It's like a perfect city. Everyone's nice. I'll die on this hill. Everyone's nice. Tons of bridges. is you love great. The food is good. Winters are rough.

It's okay. Okay. Just be cuddled up. Now you're popping. Anyway, I hope we fucking annihilated the Vikings. We'll remove this if we didn't. Our editor loves this. She loves this about me.

It's Sunday. We might have to do a cut. The Steelers doing great. Our Jerry actor, quarterback that I've made fun of, you're doing great. Doing great. Anyway, go birds.

Go Steelers, I guess. Yeah, you know, we're a big Pennsylvania team. Yeah. It'll be a PA podcast. It's a PA podcast. Anyways. All right.

some of our partners and then we'll jump right into it. Thanks to Squarespace. Bye-bye. Get a free trial at Squarespace.com slash GGE and use the code GGE for 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain and BetterHelp get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com slash GGE and function our first 1,000 listeners get a $100 credit towards your membership at functionhealth.com slash gge or use code GGE 100. And thank you to SmartMouth.

Get a special discount on your next SmartMouth purchase at SmartMouth. slash GGE. And thank you to Rocket Money. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions at RocketMoney.com slash GGE. And you know what it is. Saksith Avenue.

You know what to do. Head to Sacksbith Avenue or Sacks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style. Cheers. We have our matching chef rose mugs. A little 4 p.m. Latte. We talked about this Thursday if you guys missed the snack.

Ashley bought me a little gift on TikTok shop. I bought me a little gift on TikTok shop. My first TikTok shop. purchase ever and I've no regrets. You like to buy gifts for people. You do. You're you're gifted. I'm not gifted. I guess I see things sometimes and I think about people and I'm like I have to give them that. It'll be so funny. You know, but we have people in our lives that are such that high level of thoughtful gifting and I'm just like I could never. A lot of our L.A. friends, it's a real L.A. thing. Kate and Chad were on our show and then they immediately sent us

flowers to say thank you. Oh my gosh. Sally was on our show and sent us flowers. I would never think to do that. The flowers I got this week and I had to leave them in hotel rooms. So I was going to bring you flowers to your special taping but I was like, what is she going to do with you? So I was in New York starting Wednesday. I went to Minneapolis Tuesday. I got it was incredible. Thank you guys for coming out like last minute. Two shows. A late show Tuesday. I'm just humbled beyond belief and we'll get to more of it. But I got to New York Wednesday. My college girlfriend sent me flowers for the special like Wednesday.

Wednesday they messaged me when you get there. Okay. So I had them to like look at and be in the room. But then I got to, My fiance brought flowers to the special, and then his sister sent flowers on special day. They were gorgeous. So that was Saturday. We left Sunday morning. We brought them. Put him in the car.

We took a car up there. Put him in the fucking car just to bring him to the hotel room in Boston because, like, you don't want to throw them out. What else are we going to do with them? I bring them in the car. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to bring you flowers. No, it's okay. Okay, so it's Monday.

We're just getting back from your third bachelor at party in Vegas. I mean, it is my favorite way to do Vegas. We're recording this ahead of time. But, like, club, another club. Like, it is just, we have, like, dinner reservations. We have drinks. We have club. We're going to see Chipperdales.

Like, I am so excited. 24 hours in Vegas. I don't need more than that. 18 hours in Vegas. I need one night. I'm glad we pulled it off, hopefully. Who's to say? We are recording ahead of time

and we can talk more about it next week. But as of now, the itinerary is to get there Saturday, midday. Stay at the Cosmo. We love the Cosmo. That's where we perform. That's where we kick. off our 2024 tour on September 21st. Do you remember the 21st, 9th of September, 2024? And just go to the pool a little bit and then do drinks and that gorgeous chandelier bar in the

Cosmo. I think is it called the chandelier bar? I think it's called chandelier bar. And then dinner at catch, we love a catch. I love catch. My parents, I put my whole family at catch before the special. I like catch. It's always good. We did your birthday at cash. We love it. I know it's like a club storeant, but like the food's always good. The service is good. Yeah. It's. Call me bridge and tunnel. I don't care. Right. So, and then straight to Chippendales, which is an honor. I mean, we had the Chippendales at our Vegas show.

And when we were there, they were like, can you guys come to the show? We did not have time. And so I kept this in my back pocket. And I was like, buzz, buzz. And so we're doing that. And then after we're going to the chain smokers at excess. And we're going to be on the stage. And then.

People are like, who are these ladies? Stop, right? And we're all sparkly. No, I'm so much hotter than I was in my 20s and my 30s to be honest. Oh, I saw those old picks. We were throwing around this past weekend. Jackie unearthed a photo of me from like 10 years ago. And I was showing it to our agent too and he was like, oh, seriously.

No, me too. I mean me too. Oh my God. I look pretty bad today, but normally. And then I want to do, hopefully we can pull this off. We'll see. I mean, we're going to be going to go into like 4 o'clock in the morning. but I want everyone to come into my sweet Sunday morning

and order like a bunch of room service and have like a pajama party and like recap the night, even though the night was a few hours before. Can I just tell you the funnest recap of a night I've had in so long was the day after your special? I was just like fielding. I want to talk about your special, but like the morning after just like talking to every single person individually,

I was like, well, I haven't had a recap morning like this in a long time. What? Was there like tea? There was some tea. Yeah, there was tea. But just like it was all the same people that are, there for you and I always like plus more people plus your family and the green room was like 50 people I was there the whole night 50 people it was great we went out and did a photo on stage afterwards and

it was like people just kept coming it was like a fucking clown car I I mean yeah we'll talk about it okay so I shot my special last weekend now or you know whatever the 11th in New York it was so beautiful I can't I mean I haven't I'm not going to post any photos I want to you guys to see the special and see the set and see the vision come to life. And I couldn't believe it. I mean, I had a set designer, of course, and the production team I worked with was incredible. I'll do some, like, more thank yous and talk about everybody who did everything when it comes out. But the way we transformed that set, they did. I mean, I obviously I was in on this and I had a vision that they really brought to life. But then the venue couldn't have been more perfect. It was so stunning.

I mean, this was like the best night of my life, I think. Like, I was. I feel like it's one of the biggest things I've ever accomplished. And we've accomplished so much. And I've had these moments throughout this career with girls got to eat and like the Chicago theater being one and, you know, stepping out on that stage, I'll never forget it with you. And we've certainly had those things. And I think there's still more Raina and I want to do. And I can think about those and what they're going to feel like as well.

But for me, this was like a personal thing. I did on my own. And I have not experienced anything like this where there's such a huge crew of people making your dream come true. And afterwards, they also were like, can we grab you for a picture with the crew? And I couldn't believe how many people. I didn't know. They were everywhere all over. You know, like, I met as many people as I could, but also I'm the busy. You know, obviously my producer was incredible and the set designer and I met as many people as I could, but I truly didn't understand how many people, like how much work from so many people went into this. There was like 30 people. Like, all there for

me, I felt so like I'm not worthy. Like I've never felt so loved and so supported and so accomplished and like so on a high as I did that day. And I mean, there's just so many different components of it. Like for one, all of you, all you there, you are part of it and all my friends and family, like my whole family, like my parents, my brother and my sister-in-law and Lindsay and Buck and my friends. Rob came in for it. flew in for it. It just meant a lot for them to be there. And the audiences, like, I just, like, it just meant so much to do it in New York, where we started the podcast, where I really got into comedy. These audiences could not have been better. Two packed houses. And when you do

especially, you have to, after it's over at the end, you have to say sit in your seat, we're going to run through some stuff. We're going to, Ashley's going to come out on stage again. And you've got to do the same, like, energy. And people go even harder because they, like, know that it's for that. I felt so loved. I literally had these moments where I'm, like how am I worthy of this? Like I love you guys so much. I love the community that we built. The messages I got after this were unlike anything I've ever experienced. Girls telling me about stuff that was going down in the bathrooms and like the community that we've built that my material inspired them and empowered them and everybody was laughing and they brought

their partners or their girlfriends or their moms. And I just, it's overwhelming in the best way. And I had an amazing glam team. Andrew, our agent, came and and the show's were great. I really am so proud of them. I don't know which one was better. And they afterwards, after my, the first one, I obviously did two and you know, you kind of should pick the better of the two and you can splice in stuff from the other one. That's typically how it works. I was like, I don't even know which one was better. And after the first one, they were like, we really don't see many first takes that good. Like people kind of come out a little hot. They're nervous and then they settle in. They were like, you came out and just commanded the stage. I'm like, I've done

this so many times, which most comedians do, but I felt so relaxed from the start. Obviously, I was nervous all day. I was crashing out. Don't get it twisted. But I felt just in the zone from the beginning. You're just nodding. Sorry, I'll be done with my monologue in a minute. I know you want to jump in. But I'm, have your, have a floor. Yeah, everything was perfect. I mean, literally by the end of the second one, I was like, I've never felt so exhausted in the best way. I mean, my feet hurt, like my body hurts. I probably have not eaten enough because I've been like nervous all day and nothing's ever felt like that. I've never had any experiencing like that. I mean, it feels like when you wrap anything, a movie or a show or, you know, we've done so many

shows and they always feel like such a high when we're done. But it's years of creating this material, six months of touring it, a crew of dozens of people making your dream come true and you're surrounded by all of your friends and family and these incredible audiences from this community that we've built. I've never felt that in my life. And it was something I'll never forget. It just, it was sensational. It was unbelievable. And I've said this before, like, all of our success for so many years has been so tied to each other. And we've shared all of our successes together, the growth of this podcast and launching a sexual wellness business and these sold out tours for seven years.

And, like, this was all on your own, all by yourselves. Like, that's not too much, like to just do this completely solo and to do all these shows, a sold-out show. tour in a year that no comedians can sell, like constantly were being told, like, nobody can sell tickets, nobody can have tickets to have this sold-out tour that culminates in this production, the scale of which I did not even understand was, I mean, there was seven cameras, there was dozens of camera people, there was a huge set backstage, and you looked phenomenal, and so many of our friends flew in for this, and it just was like an unbelievable night, and I spent the whole night with our agent, I watched your first show from the balcony and the audience with

everybody and I watched the second show with Andrew backstage and the crew was just doubled over out loud laughing and I you were just it was flawless you looked amazing the set design was gorgeous like I can't wait for people to see this you the audience could not have been bad I couldn't believe like just the boom of the audience they were so perfect how do you get two perfect audiences and I wonder sometimes I've been to special tapings that feel a little awkward for a very very very various reasons. All the time. My production company, the lighting was perfect, but you still are like, I don't know, you always wonder if the audience is going to be able to get in the zone because they know they're there for this taping and you have to kind of do these pickups and, you know, seven people on cranes

with cameras and stuff. Yeah, the cameras are all over the place. But, you know, you're prepped when you walk in and it just doesn't feel as natural as like going to a comedy club maybe. You're hyper aware. Yeah. So, but it didn't matter. They were locked in. So good. And so you asked me to open both this show's insane. Oscar performed like a whole set, but you asked me to introduce you. Yeah, Randon's going to be part of it. Don't worry. I can't wait for you guys to see it.

Oh my God. We're not like you're going to die when you I see this when it's all done. But yes, Raina will be a part of it. There was like, I was very emotional like the first time I got on stage and introduce you because it was the day after we met eight years prior. And I'm like introducing you for your special. And like I just was so proud and I got on stage. I like could barely breathe.

Like it was so much emotion. I was crying. I like, you wanted me to like drop this line that I had to save the special. I started crying saying it. I was just really overwhelmed. So we get on stage. I watched a little special with Andrew up in the balcony. He's like, she's so good.

She doesn't need another take. This is perfect. I wouldn't even have her do a second or whatever. So we go back downstairs and we're like, what's your feedback from like the special? He's like, I don't have feedback for Raina. And he was like, oh, you really brought the mood down. He was like, please don't cry. The next time you do this, just like,

just keep it in the box. Like, you really, no crying. Please don't cry. It's really brought the vibes. When you started choking up, I was like, is this bitch for real right now? Like, you don't think I want to cry? You don't think you're going to trigger me?

You think you need to go out there and cry right before I step on scene? I was like, I'm going to make her cry. It couldn't stop. So what I did was drink a bottle of wine in between the first and the second one. So there was a line that Rainer really needed. to nail. It really needs to be perfect because it may or may not open the whole fucking thing. And I was listening for her to, for it to be perfect because you can pick it up and later

if you need to. And she did nail it after she stopped crying the first show. She did not nail the second show. It was like slurry voice. She added a few little extra words in there. And I was like, fuck it. I think we got it in the first one. And if we have to figure it out, we can do it at the wedding maybe.

No. But it was just like after the second one you came out, I could hear that whining your voice. I was like, there's no hope. I got on stage and I, somebody, people send me videos. I'm just like, I'll be honest. I'm drunk. Oh, my God. That was really fun.

And then I was great the second time. I just, I didn't cry or anything. And I go backstage to watch with Andrew and we're like watching. And I went to the green room for a second. I go back out to the camera. And I see, they're freaking out. There's like eight people looking at the camera. And they're like, oh, my God.

Oh, my God. What are we going to do? What do we do? Her hair. I'm looking. I'm like, her hair looks fucking fine. And they're like, no, no, wait until she turns. and you wouldn't turn.

And like, this went on for like a few minutes. And I'm like, guys, leave her alone. She's fine. There's nothing wrong with her hair. And they're like, no, there is. And you turn it. And there was just this one strand that just jetted out really far and like looped around and went back into your hair. I mean, it was so.

And they're like, who's going to tell her? They're all scrambling. I'm like, I'll do it. No. And I was like, so I opened the curtain. You're the middle of jokes. Can I tag in for my perspective? Yes.

I don't want to cut you off, but I do think you need to hear how this felt for me. She did an okay time. I wasn't mid-sentence, but I was mid-joke. Opener, open-er joke. They were freaking out. Yeah, I get it because this might be, they might want to use this one, and there's a hair out of place. And so there's a teeny tiny break. I am in the middle of a joke, though, and about to kind of segue into the second part of it.

And I hear, Ashley, Ashley, and I'm like, this can't, am I here? that can't be Raina's voice on the stage with me. Raina's whispering from the side of the stage. Raina's here. She's out here on the stage. I turned to my left. You're there. I was like,

what is actually happening? That's never in my life of I experienced something like this. You were like, your hair's messed up. And I was like, this can't be real. Rada comes out. She smooths my hair.

And I do have to say, I actually thought about clipping this, so I'm not going to leave it away. They loved it. a great joke. I turned it around and then I got back into it and finished the original joke. But what a thing to happen. The crew was like that was the best moment. We can't wait to clip this. Okay, good. That really makes such. The crew that I worked with, like, they do so much incredible comedy. And so for that you to say that they were like enjoying it and laughing and stuff means

the world. But this is a thing. I remember going to Nikki's taping when she taped Banging. She was a special called Banging. It was in L.A. I remember the set. It's a Nicky really big behind it. And I remember her being on stage and there was like a natural break between jokes and the voice of God came on. Like someone from the mic from up top and said like, Nikki, you need to fix your hair. We're going to come out and fix your hair, powder your nose or whatever. But like for your best friend to be on the stage, whispering. I was waiting for a natural break, but they were like freaking out. It was bad. It was like a big loop in the hair. Yeah. So that was such a fun moment. And just again,

thank you to everyone that came for all the support, for all the messages. And then the next morning I woke up, we took a car to Boston with our flowers, and I closed the tour in Boston at the Wilbur. And that's the theater where I met my fiance in 2021. There's a whole long story. Obviously, we didn't start to 8 until 2023. But

all of it's happened in Boston with him and the show was just absolutely incredible. I couldn't believe I had to do another show. I was like, you know, you should end it on your special, but to end it there meant even more. It was this full circle moment with him and he came out on stage at the end. And I love our Boston audience so much. I mean, the Wilbur was packed and we had some of his friends and some people in the green room and stuff.

And then afterwards we walk into the W. And I'm going to talk about the W in a minute. The W is right across the street. We've never not stayed there every single time. It's literally five feet away. They have a deal with the theater. We always always stay there when we perform at the Wilbur or we performed at the box center next door, the Wang. And I walk in at rain. And I walk in, it everyone from the show was at the fucking bar on a Sunday night at the W. Of course. It was screaming, screaming.

Like everyone was up from there. Woo! Ashley! Ashley! I was dying. And then the few people at the bar who weren't at the show were like, who the fuck is that? I did a whole round, took pictures that everyone ripped a shot. Like I was like, I love you so. I love you guys so much.

I just, I love our audience. I love the people that support us so, so much. We have the best audience of the world. world, we are so lucky. Every time I meet anyone, I'm just like, they're so cool, they're so funny, they're so pretty. It never gets old and it will never not feel like an honor and I'll never not be grateful. But that was like such a moment. And like my fiancee was there with his friends. They went and sat down and they were like, this is just crazy. But the W, I said this before, the first night he and I ever got together. We stayed the night in the W after the show in 2020 at the

w and we stayed in a room 1-1-1-2. And we loved that it had an angel number in it. And then we were getting married on one one one two five and I knew we were going to stay back in the W and then so I emailed them so they they booked my room for me and I was like I'd love to request this hotel room and they wrote back and we're like it's been requested already and I'm like what from a fan like is someone trying to have a fan experience yeah so I was like I didn't even know what to say that's why is that a thing it's not part of like a wedding block like they were just like it's it's kind of been requested it's lore it's like Taylor Swift it's you know, it's all these little little things.

Well, let me know if someone stayed in the fucking room. Like, did you not think I would want it? Anyway, so then I wrote back and told the marketing director the whole story. Before I just requested it, it was like, it's important to me, whatever. Then I was like, I just want to share with you why I requested the room, told her the whole story, and there's some additional information, whatever. And she was like, oh, my God, that's incredible. We're going to see what we can do and let us know what time you're arriving and stuff like that.

So we check into the hotel, this guy at the front desk, Lloyd, sexy. He checks this in. be a room key and it says 1102. And I was like, we had requested 1112. I just want, he goes, you'll see. You'll see. And he hands it to us. And in parentheses on the little paper thing

where the key comes in, it said 1,112. We go up, we go to the end of the hall. I'm like, we're going to be in a suite. Obviously, we've stayed in those suites before. We go to the 1102. On the door, they had made this like plaque that said 1,112 and blue. I was like, this is the cutest thing.

We walk in. It's this huge suite. they had done like charcutory and wine. They'd printed a picture out of us and they wrote this sweet car that was so thoughtful and it said we made this the door placard for you and we painted it blue for Zool and you can keep it. And it was just the best experience. And so I love the W. Boston again, that's exclusively where we've stayed and it just meant

a lot. So anyway, just want to share that. And let me know who the fuck stayed in that room. It was a nice end of the weekend. I was like, I cannot believe she has to go do this. I was in bed until 1 o'clock that day. I was so jealous of you. I mean, this was one of the best nights of my life.

I just got to look pretty and get all this attention. Thank you. And just like be with all of our friends and hang out. Like, it's such a nice night with Andrew Bumman. And also your fiancee, we all hung out on it. And like, it was just. Jacqueline, my wedding planner came. Oh, love her so much.

I had the best night. And then I just got to like sleep all day the next day and I have to pack up. It was the best. It was a great weekend. and you plan this really special dinner Friday night before and 10 of us went and we just had the best time. I love that. We went to Quality Meets, which is still, I mean, if you want a steakhouse in New York City, that's the one. And I used to, we may use you. Am I going to say it? Okay. So we're in the group chat. We're at, right to put 10 random people on a group chat, which I love to see it.

Well, most of them know each other, but your cousin. Lindsay's on it. Yeah. And I side text to Lindsay and I was like, I think you'll like this. And she's like, I love being a part of this. Yeah. So Raina puts us on the group chat. She's like, we're going to go to Quality Meets at 8 p.m. whatever. And then she's like, and I'll show you guys everywhere around this restaurant. I fucked. Because I used to manage at that restaurant. Yeah. Well, you've talked a lot about fucking in the restaurant. And I was like, I can't wait for the HR violation tour. And so we're going back and forth. And I mean, we walk in. And the person that I used to sleep with there

15 years ago was still working there. I couldn't believe it. Just at the bar. Just right there. Yeah. I just watched. your like face. I was like, gotta be kidding me. I didn't know. Like, do I go say hello? Did you ever like, did you lock eyes or anything? We looked directly at each other, but I was like, maybe you didn't see me or recognize me. But so the way that like open table or resi or any of these platforms were because you have a profile, a customer profile at every restaurant and probably says like Raina Greenberg used to be a manager here, got fired from here. Like, a hundred percent. The better the restaurant, the more notes they have about their

clients and residents have a pre-shift meeting and they talk about like the VIPs and like the special guests that are coming in. Oh right. Yeah. I've watched the bear. They knew that we were coming because they sent a ton of free stuff over the table. They sent tons of appetizers and sides and wine and you're right. Yes. They knew exactly what it was. I just don't think it was like right. I got fired from here. I mean, they still treat you really nicely. You still know some people that work there. Yeah. You're like a real celebrity. Well, I got fired for like having a drink on the job, which was so ridiculous because everybody drank on the job. You're so yeah, you're right. I wasn't thinking that you would come up during the pre-ship meeting and that bartender's like what the fuck and it said like 8 p.m.

Rain and I was like, I'm like frozen. I do not know what to. I was I also like there's no reason to walk over to the bar. It would have been like hey. Yeah. We slept together 15 years. Totally. He was so hot back then. You know what it reminds me of. I have two things. In terms of people staying at the same job for so long when Carrie. Bradshaw, you know, up sex in the city. Carrie had said she had an abortion with this server at this restaurant. She went to the restaurant and he still worked there. However, 10 years, 15 years later.

And I was telling you that when I, I used to hook up with this guy that worked at a grocery store in Dover, Delaware. And I would hook up with him usually like winter breaks from college. So never after I graduated, but when I would come up from college, I would go out with my friends around Dover and I would hook up with this guy. And he was like, so funny. And I just, I never saw him as a long time. and partner and I don't know he was just a fun hang we would go out we would like dance like he had a

kid whatever was fine but he worked at the grocery store he worked in produce and sometimes I would get drunk if he was on the night shift I'd like go there after the club it was a mess so the club it was called bubba's it was in Dover so anyway go to the grocery store after the club no I did one time I like found him in the cereal aisle I was all drunk I mean I go to west side market all the time when I'm drunk so I get it so eight to ten years later I was with my friend brook who would spend Christmas is with us. She was the first Jewish person we took in for Christmas. And then it was Louisa and then it was you.

And my mom sent us to get stuff for Christmas dinner. We go to the grocery store. And I'm telling her, I used to hook up with this guy that worked in produce. And she's like, shut up. And I'm telling her all this stuff. We're checking out. And she was like, I wonder if he still works here. And we looked up and on the wall, there he is, employee of the month.

What are the odds? Listen, that's a New York City Steakhouse. You get a job bartending in a New York City Steakhouse. You fucking hang on to that job. You make a fortune. Exactly. But you don't expect it at the grocery store. New York City steak is if you get a bartending job, you never leave.

Oh, it's such an easy money. Yeah, it's just you print money. But like. Also, employee the month, that makes me think that he's not even a manager now. Right. Would you have an employee the month? No. The manager's not getting that.

That's unfair. Because, I mean, technically the manager's nominating. So 10 years later, he's just still working produce. He's comfy. Good for him. It was coming. Okay, let's just take a quick break. Okay, this podcast is sponsored and brought to you by Squarespace.

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my website too. And it's just so easy to like pick up and she's, she's wonderful too. And she's figured out some different hacks and honestly made anything I've wanted to happen happen because it's just so doable within Squarespace. I can't imagine any other platform. Absolutely. So they have like cutting age AI technology. But in terms of design, I mean, there's templates. It couldn't look more beautiful and be easier to create a really professional, easy-to-use website. No matter what type of plugins you want to use, they have Squarespace payments. So it's the easiest way to manage your payments in one place.

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in your body and our first 1,000 listeners get a $100 credit towards their membership. Visit functionhealth.com slash gGE or use gift code GGE 100 at sign up to own your health. Okay, well, let's get into it with our guest. Okay, guys, we are very excited. to welcome our guest today. She is a best-selling author and speaker best known for her books. Choose Wonder Over Worry and the answers are within you. She's also the creator of the Feelings Journal, a tool that transforms the way you engage with your emotions. Her writing and illustrations reach 9 million people per month and her work has been featured in such publications as The New York Times, New York Magazine Today, Sell, Fortune, Forbes, Entrepreneur.

Her new book is out now, lovable, one woman's path from good to free. Please welcome to the show, Amber Ray. Hello. Hi. You've been making the rounds from all of our, all our faith, Caitlin Bristow and almost 30 and Vienna-Ferrin and now you're here. I'm here. Coming to us from the Hamptons. Yeah. I'm so jealous. Yeah, we wish we were with you in the Hamptons. Yeah. I know. And as we record with you, you're doing a book launch party tonight. The book comes out as we record. Came out last week. Last week. Party starts in 90 minutes. Oh, my God. Okay. We'll get you out of here. We're good, right. Yeah, okay.

Well, congrats also. Thank you. Thank you. Does it just feel like birthing? Like how does it? Yeah, it feels. Startic, all the things. Tell us.

It feels to finally have people reading the book and responding to the book and like to hear the resonance and to hear so many women being like, wow, this is my story too. Or you put to feelings when I've been experiencing, but didn't necessarily have the words for. That's like, you know, when you, particularly memoirs, this is my first memoir. But when you write memoir, you're like in a room, bleeding on the page, you know, It's kind of this healing process for you and you hope your story will resonate but you don't really know. And so to like have it out in the world and to be hearing how people are reading it, that's the best part. Okay.

Well, we want to probably end with responses to the book and how it's been feeling. But I guess give us the boilerplate. What inspired you to write this book? Your story is really, really fascinating. So four years ago, while married, I looked into the eyes of a stranger and I had this knowing feeling of he's your person. And it was this crazy moment because, of course, I was married. I was living. I had left New York in the pandemic. And I was in Toto Santos, Mexico, building a land project with my then husband, who was now my business partner. And we were in the throes of that. And I was

desperately trying to convince myself that the relationship was right. We were nine years in. We were best friends. We were never really romantic partners. I had a sexless relationship. But we were good friends and we got along. And there were things that worked. And I think I was just like, this could be enough. Maybe we can figure it out. Maybe another workshop. If we do, let us all read this book together.

Then we'll like find the intimacy and closeness that I'm desperately craving. And I think unconsciously, I was also like, maybe if I make him my business partner because he loves to work, then I'll like get, you know, what we'll find that thing. But when I looked into the eyes of this other person, it was this wake up call of A, this is what connection feels like.

And B, you've been lying to yourself or trying to convince yourself of something. and that's not what this relationship actually is. You opened the book with this really powerful story of standing on the altar on your wedding day. And everyone's looking at me thinking they're so happy. And you put, you know, your self-talk, which is like, I don't think how, I don't think this is going to last. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I walked down the aisle thinking I'm not sure how long this is going to last, but maybe we'll throw a great party.

And you do before that or you felt that way before that? Yeah. Yeah, you know, pretty early on, he was three hours late to our first date. And I remember being, yeah. And his phone died and blah, blah, blah. And like, but I remember being like, I don't know if I can trust this guy. But he said all the right things. And like, I'm so sorry.

You feel that way. I take full responsibility. Like, he like really owned his part in it. So I was like, okay, this guy can like own up to things. Like maybe it's okay. But, you know, I think I had that inner voice within me saying repeatedly, like, I don't know if this is right. And, you know, the chemistry, the, like, sexual chemistry piece there never really felt quite right.

But I, like, I thought, and I was 26 years old then. I was like, oh, well, like, we'll figure that out. Like, maybe it'll get better in time because I like, and he's a good guy and we get along. And, like, I like his friends. You know, there were things that I could look to and point to and be like, that's great. But, you know, there's a voice within me that was like, are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure?

But I kept pushing it down, pushing it down and pushing it down. Because, I mean, the truth is I, like, in some ways, wanted it to work. Did you have friends in your life that you were able to ask at the time? Like, well, everybody probably feels like this all the time. Well, I have doubts, but so does everybody. We don't really have sex, but sex dwindles for people. Did you have community around you that you felt comfortable even saying those thoughts out loud to? I don't think I was fully honest. And that wasn't because I was being dishonest with my friends. It was because I was scared to be honest with myself. Yeah. And if I was honest with myself, then I would have to be like, what are you doing? You know,

but I like, you know, I definitely had friends that I could be like, you know, we're not really having sex that often. And I think, you know, for a few of my friends, they had been in long term married relationships, had kids. And they're like, I'm not really having sex that often either. Yeah. So like, you know, I don't think, not to jump ahead, but like when I was leaving and going to friends being like, okay, here's what I've realized. This is not right for me. You know, there were friends who were like, thank God, you know, like we could sense this and feel this. And now that you're voicing it, it makes so much sense. So, you know, I felt like I had a really good of support in believing, but I think it wasn't until I, like, was super honest with myself that I was even

able to be really honest with my friends. It's really hard, especially in your 20s, to put words to that, to when you find good on paper guy. And I found that too. I was engaged to him. And I found this guy who treated me good enough. We also didn't really have much of a sex life. But like, we got along. He was a good teammate. It was fine. He was a nice person. He didn't hurt me. emotionally or physically ever. I mean, it was just a good enough relationship. And I was very afraid to ask myself the question, which you say in the book, which is like, how do you phrase it? Like, what's the thing you're like too afraid to admit to yourself? And that thing for me was like, I'm just not that happy with this, with good on paper guy. I love good on paper guy.

Well, good guys are hard to find. I mean, it's just, and we hear from a lot of our listeners and we even see this with friends that I say the quote, like when you hear a woman say, he makes me happy and you almost read between the lines of he doesn't make me unhappy because there's a lot of women out there that their partner is the thing making them unhappy in life and you just see so much bad behavior and people being treated poorly that you're like, oh, it's rough out there. Like this is a good guy. But I have a question for you. Did you feel like you had models of healthy, loving relationships with sex and stability in your life? Or did you feel like you didn't really even know what that looked like or would feel like. Yeah, just real quick, because I love the good

on paper guy, because I have so many people reached out to me being like, the good on paper guy is almost harder to leave because it's like nothing's wrong. It is harder to leave. Yeah, there's not a big thing. Shouldn't I be more grateful? Something wrong with me that like this isn't enough. And like, do I need to fix some part of myself? And that was kind of like where I was at. I was like, do I like do I like women? Is that what? You know, is that what my good on paper guy isn't good enough? I think it was like, it must be something that's wrong with me. Yeah, it can be harder to leave. I would ask myself that question too. Am I so rotten? What's so wrong with me that I can't enjoy this, that I can't be grateful for what I have, which is a man who is kind, doesn't cheat on me,

that doesn't diminish me. Why can't I enjoy this more? And just be grateful that I have something that other people don't. And it took a long time. I wouldn't have left him. He left me. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. So he was. Isn't that good on paper? Yeah. Another story. He was good until he wasn't. But to answer your question, no, I did not have healthy models of love.

You know, I was raised by a single mom-law. She had him, she was 21. My dad left and had an affair with some mistress. And then he got in a car accident, which led him to have a traumatic brain injury. I didn't meet him that I remember until I was nine. My mom remarried. He was not a healthy influence. That was chaotic and disastrous.

And so it's, you know, it was like, not only did I not see healthy, secure, safe love, the love that I longed for with this father, who I met when I was, when I was eight years old, I met him and he had this traumatic brain injury. And so I was so desperately wanted him to be like, hi, daughter. Like, I see you. I let you know, to be able to connect with him, which he was just not capable of. And so I believe that like this desire that I had helped for this person who, you know, my mom told me wonderful things about this desire I felt for so long.

desire is not dangerous because I don't want to feel that longing feeling again. I don't want to feel like I want someone so intensely and they're not able to meet me. That seems very scary. So I was like anytime I feel desire for someone, it's too risky. They might leave. They might not be able to meet me. So I'm just going to make safe choices in love. I mean, I've actually really heard someone expressed that in such a way. And so that the lack of desire with your first husband was secure and safe. Yeah. For you. I didn't consciously wasn't aware of that, of course, but it was like, I'm going to pick this guy who like probably won't leave me or even if he did leave me. It might. It'll hurt, but maybe not hurt as much if I like was like, you know,

so in love with this person. I want to talk a little bit about how your mom described your dad, though and the models of love that you had as a kid because you open this chapter. I want to say I think your mom probably did the best she could. All moms were doing the best day could. But you opened this chapter saying when my mom was pregnant with me, he fucked one of her best friends. And the way that your mom would go on to speak about him wasn't as though he, like when you hear that, it makes your whole body sees up.

But I want to talk about how your mom spoke about your father as though he was like the love of her life. Yeah. Early on when I was young in those early years, I think what she wanted me to think of him. He was like the smartest person she ever met and so amazing. And this musician, he played seven intraments and he had the most beautiful voice and like, oh my gosh, I'm smart. Like, you know, it was all positive, which for little me only created more longing because I was like, who's this amazing person that doesn't want me or that left us? Like, why did he leave us? And so, you know, I think

that's where some of that like early abandonment anxiety started. But then later in life, as I got older, you know, and I started to hear more about the truth and I started to ask more questions. You know, I learned that he, like, fucked your best friend. And I learned that, like, oh, he was also an addict. And I learned that he got behind the wheel under the influence. And his best friend who was getting married the next day died in the car crash. You know, I, like, learned more details. And I was like, okay, this is actually, like, I think it was actually helpful to understand

that he wasn't this, like, perfect man who just, you know, decided we weren't good enough for him. Yeah. I'm sure it really formed the way you looked at romantic attachment and attachment in general to a parent, this amazing person didn't want to raise me. And that's a whole different discussion, but I'm also very fascinated by it in the way that a parent might talk about the absent parent because you want, why would you not want your little girl to think her dad is a superhero and he's the, you know, the white

night. And then it's like, or do you go the complete opposite and just like, this man's terrible. You trust me. You're better off. And I guess, obviously, the truth can fall somewhere in the middle. But it's interesting that that's the story you were talking. told. Totally. And I'm grateful she wasn't like dad bashing. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. You almost overcorrect. It's the overcorrection of like the bashing is the like he's perfect. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was also

painful for her to look at, which is what she said later. Like when I, you know, as I started telling my story and putting it out there, it's uncomfortable for her because she's like, ooh, I didn't want to look at this. I didn't want to look at like, you know, what comes up for me around this. Yeah. And I mean, there is no right answer thinking about, you know, do you tell your kid the truth? Which, which you're, is really painful or do you build this person up that left? I mean, there's just no right answer. And we all romanticized, too, in general, whoever it is, past partners, family members, like, I think we have a tendency to do that. Totally. Though I do think, like, little me could have handled, listen, he was extraordinary in these ways. And I really loved this about him. And also,

there were some aspects of him, like, where he needed to grow up. And, like, he was a kid. Like, I feel like she could have given me, like, both. And I make him. And I make. I don't know what age I would have been in it, but I think I would have been able to handle and hold that. And I wouldn't have then romanticized him so much and long-de-run him so much. And also, like, personalized his leaving. Yeah. Well, I'm sorry.

And it sounds like she, you know, she did her best. And fast forward, you're with good on paper guy. And you're like, I don't know. Is this like how everybody feels? And you talk about going to therapy and lying to the therapist. So let's talk about no. knowing that you wanted to be in therapy and then not as many people, not being honest in therapy. Yeah, you know, it was just like, we were in this like denial, denial and

denial and avoidance was kind of our whole thing. Like we never fought and I thought that was a good thing, but it was actually, I think, an issue because we were never bringing up the things that matter to us. We were never confronting the issues that were alive in the relationship. And yeah, we like went to this therapist and as if we were trying to convince the therapist so that we could convince ourselves the relationship was right. And so. So we would go there. I'm like, these amazing things are happening. And he is, this is happening with his business. And I'm getting another book deal. And she was just like, she'd be like, why are you here? You're my favorite couple. You know, it was like, but if anything like, you know,

I feel like also the right therapist might be like, why are you really here? Like, you know, you know, but we never like, we never, like, we never told her we weren't having sex. We, you know, there were, I remember there were a few like, okay, we're getting into some things. But I mean, it was just, I think, another part of, you know, the story we tell ourselves because we'll always find the evidence for what we choose to believe. And so we were choosing to believe that this was right. And so we're going to go to therapy and maybe the therapist will convince us that we should stay. Can I ask you, you know, you're in therapy. This is a safe space to admit some deficits in the relationship. Why did it feel so frightening to say we're not sleeping with

each other. I think if we admitted we were not sleeping with each other, it would mean the relationship was over and we needed to separate. And I don't think we were ready for that. Or just the idea of that felt too scary or too uncomfortable or like we're in this deep. We've, you know, our communities are now we're in business together. It was like we were too far in. How could we like blow it all up now? Did you feel unhappy day to day? Or was it just like you have a friendship? You still have a friendship. So was it just coexisting and kind of this unsettling feeling that something better is out there? I think part of my how I responded to childhood trauma was I'm fine. I'm good. I'm happy. I can keep going. I'm not your crazy behavior. You're the emotional immaturity,

the violence, the chaos. Like the things that I witnessed, it was kind of like, I'm good and I'm going keep going. And so I think my, it was like, was I happy in the relationship? It was like, I'm happy because I make myself happy. You know, it's kind of my, like, I'm in charge of that. And so I was more focused on like, I can be good. I can be good wherever. I'm easy, breezy. I'm going to go with the flow. I can like make this work. But like, if I like got really quiet and listened and was like, am I happy in what we have? It would have been a fuck no. Okay. Yeah. But I like, wasn't there because I was like so focused on my own self and how I can show up that I like was ignoring the relationship and how that felt. Yeah. You write this quote in the book,

how I found myself in a sexless relationship where my needs for closeness and emotional depth are not met. Why do I let this be okay? Why do I keep holding on to hope that something will change? Why when something feels off or missing, do I not listen? And why am I afraid of disappointing others but so willing to disappoint myself. And it's like a, it's really a powerful statement. And I mean, it's like, it's a lot to unpack, but why do you think you were so afraid of disappointing others at your own detriment? Yeah, yeah. That was the most terrifying thing to me. I think my like, in terms of like the good girl, the I thought I needed to harmonize and keep the peace. And that was the way that like, okay, if I can make sure my mom's okay and my stepdad's

not freaking out. And if I can maintain harmony in this family. unit, then I'll be safe, then I'll be taking care of, then my needs as a child will be met. And so fast forward to adulthood. And I'm like, I'm amazed. Is everyone okay? Ooh, their mood is shifting? Oh, why is their mood shifting? Did they have too many drinks? Like, you know, I was like constantly hypervigilant around everyone's okayness. And if I can maintain harmony, then I can maintain okayness. And so I think that just like fully transferred into my love and romantic life, where yeah it was just I didn't even realize I was self-abandoning you know when I was in it I didn't even realize I was ignoring my needs I didn't even think I was in touch with my needs like and that was what

was crazy is that on the other side of the nine-year relationship it was like I woke up from this spell and I was like what the hell how did I let that be okay how did I even get here because my work was to help people live their most authentic and true life so how am I this person who's doing this work in the world who creatively felt like creatively I feel like I feel like they're going to can say these are my needs and here's what matters and here's what I want like that was easy for me my mom was a badass entrepreneur of course you model like business powerhouse but love like oh what are what should you need in love I didn't even know where to begin hmm I think people pleasers are very used to setting themselves on fire to keep someone else warm and yeah as long as everyone around you feels good and

comfy it's sort of okay if you don't yeah exactly you have these great metaphors good on good on paper guy We've been doing this a long time. So can we just talk about where it all changed and when you met this person? Yeah. So I, you know, here we were in the middle of raising money for this land project and two potential investors came over. They had a friend tag along and it was the moment that they walked toward us and I connected eyes with him that I had this kind of feeling of hello again and it felt like I was

home and just, you know, he said, hello. John and I like tilted my head and he tilted his head and I was like, hello, John. And I like led him in and we did the whole pitch of the land and the house and everything we were doing. But the entire time, I just was like, could not understand what was pulsing through me. And my ex, like, went and talked to the two people about business and John and I were kind of like in this bubble for hours. They were supposed to be there for an hour and five hours later. I was just like, wow, okay, this feels like my person. But in the moment. I was like, that's crazy, maybe in another life. And I even said to him, like, I'm going to match you with your person because I was thinking, like, okay, I can't have him in this lifetime. So like,

I'm going to find a woman because he's so great. I'm going to find his person. And then they left and I turned to my husband. I said, I just met a soulmate. Oh, you said that to your husband. I said that to my husband. Oh, I thought he said that to you. No, no, no. No. I said, I just met a soulmate. And he said, I know. That was beautiful. Like in terms of a romance. context? I wasn't, you know, soulmate. Like, I don't necessarily believe we have one person who's our soul. Oh, no, I get it. I just didn't. Did you feel like they're, because you just said you were going to set him up with someone else because you didn't see a future. I mean, I imagined like, oh, that would be nice if I was single and not in this whole thing. Like, yes, I would totally run off of this guy. He's my person. But I was like, not in this lifetime. So when I told him, I just met a soulmate. I wasn't thinking and now I'm going to blow up my marriage. Got it. Okay. Right. And you were in your house with your husband when you met him. I mean, And so when you said that, you meant like a soul connection. I felt like this incredible, like this was the most extraordinary connection I've ever felt in my life.

It's kind of how I was like that I was just said, I was like, I just met a soulmate. And he saw it. You know, it wasn't like I was trying to hide. And like it was very clear the connection that we had, which didn't feel like, oh, this like romantic heat thing. It just felt like, wow, these two people really light up with each other. Like, wow, there's something here. Okay.

We're just going to take a quick break. I'm going to tell you about Sacks. This episode is brought to you by Sacks Fifth Avenue. So we love Sacks so much. And fall is here. Fall fashion. Gotta be. I mean,

fall and summer. Melanie was making fun of me because I was like, my favorite fashion is women's fashion in the fall. And she's like, yeah, it's everybody's fighting for fashion. Yeah,

I guess that's true. I just the colors, like browns and burgundy's. But I just love dressing for summer so easy. Sluddy tank top. Yeah, but it's like, it's no thought, you know?

Like, Sacks is really like the opportunity to like elevate your wardrobe. And like even like at leisure with them is great. Gifting from them is great. Like it's just it's holiday season. You can gift stuff from them. There's just so much to choose from. And just every brand.

I mean, I'm looking like we love ALC. Those pants that people used to DM me about. They were like, tell me I don't like our pants. They were ALC. Alexis Bittar, that jewelry. You got me those earrings. I'm looking at some Alexis Bitar earrings for my wedding actually, like the, my ceremony and reception.

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Look at this. I mean, but look at that green dress. Could you die? We'll put the green dress up on the screen. I mean, I love that you can sort by category. Like, what are you looking for? I just find stuff I've never seen before. I know.

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that's rocketmoney.com slash gge. Rocketmoney.com slash gge. Okay. And we'll get back into it with Amber. So let's talk a little bit more about the story and how this builds because your husband was along for the ride essentially. This guy becomes your business partner. Yeah.

So I'm thinking I can't have him as my life partner. I'll make him my creative partner. So he comes in and he's going to build a project with us. He's an artist and he was going to help me think through like the design, the architecture and how to visually bring the experience to life, which is how him and I, quickly realized, okay, maybe there are feelings here. And, you know, very early on, I was like, can I just name the fact that, like, I'm sensing the connection here? Like, is it just me? Because I didn't know if I was alone feeling this. Like, you know, I don't know if this guy is

doing what I'm feeling. And he was like, I'm so glad you brought this up because, yes, I did feel this kind of like a recognition at first sight with you. And I was kind of like, why am I meeting my person who's clearly not available to me? But his whole thing was like, I just felt like you were showing me that like what unconditional love could be like. Like I can love this person without possessing her. And it doesn't have to be romantic. It could just show me like what's possible for me in love. So that's how he was interpreting it at first.

And then like once that was named, it was kind of like, okay, that's interesting. And then, you know, I think my ex is participation in it of like, wow, now that John's hanging out with you and kind of meeting your emotional needs. And I get to work more like, this is really working for me. And I was like, that's interesting information. So it was just like this. I mean, it was nuts. And also like every time I was with John, I was like shooting star. And I mean, it was like, like, I couldn't put all the synchronities and things that were

happening inside the book because it would sound way too cheesy. But I feel like, you know, the universe was like, hello, I'm going to like be really like obnoxious and showing you all of these things to be like, hello, pay attention. I feel like there's something here. Yeah. Like everything was conspiring. Like seeing the world in color for the first time. like life starts now.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, everything is black and white. Now it is good. Yeah. Yeah. So in the beginning, your husband was just like, look at her go. She found a new buddy that lights are up.

I mean, he was around a lot of this, right? Yeah. He was. I mean, he even like left us on the beach one time. It's like, your connection is undeniable. Why would I get in the way of it? I was like, what is happening? But, you know, is he saying?

Sorry, is this like in a romantic, like I guess I just was your husband picking up on this, like the writing's on the wall. Okay. Yeah. I think like I truly believe. that like a part of him, the way that he loved me was that he wanted me to experience the best love that I could experience. And I think he knew on some level, of course, that like, that was not what we had. And so he was watching me, like, almost like fall in love, real love for the first

time. And he even said, like, I'm happy for you, although this like, you know, if the roles were reversed, like, this wouldn't feel good for you. But then at one moment, like, in the midst of this, he, like, meets a woman and has a connection with her and then comes to me. I feel like I met my John and had my hand on our thigh and I was worried you were going to like walk up. And I was, actually, that makes me happy for you. Yeah, yeah. It's like this bizarre. I mean, it's just like this bizarre like, okay, now that we're like open and seeing what our relationship is more clearly.

Like at one point, he's like, what if John became your boyfriend and we opened our marriage? And I was like, okay, if we opened our marriage, you would be my best friend. You would not be romantic at all. I'm not like going to go be with John and bring that into our marriage. I was like, John would be my like partner. Yeah. Yeah. And actually you were like proposing that as very clarifying.

It was just a very illuminating like roller coaster. So I'm curious like where your husband wasn't at all, even the 10 years prior. Like did he feel that his needs were being met? Were you the only person that was out here being like, oh, sure about this? Or was he like, maybe there's more for me too? Like, what does he feel all these years? I feel like if one person is self-abandoning in the relationship, like my friend said, like liberation is a two-way street.

Like, when you liberate yourself, you liberate the other. I also think of one person is self-abandoning, then that can also be a pattern. And so I imagine that he, you know, if you're only having sex twice a year, I, you know, I'd hope he would want sex more than that unless he's just an asexual person. I don't know. But, like, I can't imagine his knees were fully being met either. But you guys haven't really discussed that. We never, like, went into that.

You know, and he met, he's now remarried and, like, has moved on in his life. We more, like, acknowledged, like, how much we were in the story of our relationship rather than the reality of it. Yeah. And, like, you know, that, like, meeting John was a wake-up call because he realized how asleep he was in our marriage. And, like, so we had more of the, like, honest, like, what it was. But I wasn't like, why didn't we have sex?

You know, we're just, like, why did you let this happen? You know, like, you were asking yourself as, like, how did I let this happen for nine years? I'd be curious if you know the answer. I'm curious what his answer is. Yeah, I'm curious too. But like, you know, and I don't want to speak for him. But totally. We understand. All right. We'll have him on. And then we'll get John on and then we'll get through with everybody. So you're like, I realize I'm in love with John or I want to be with John. I love John. Do you start negotiating with yourself? Like, do I leave? Do I stay? Do I leave? Do I say what does it mean how's it going to feel like what is the self-talk massively negotiating my

like this is insane he's a stranger you've known him for three weeks what are you going to like leave something you've been in for nine years for this like sexy guy that you feel connected with like you know there was and what the hell are people going to think and you know I think there's a lot of shame over like leaving someone for someone else like how awful and how terrible of a person and how selfish I must be to just be like sorry bye You know, granted, like, it's so much more nuanced than that. Of course. Some could argue that, like, we've left the relationship far before the marriage ended.

Yeah. But, like, those are the voices, the critical voices in my head. What are people going to think? Like, this is crazy. And I called a girlfriend of mine and, like, kind of told her, here's everything that I thinking I'm falling in love with this person and, oh, my God, what I do? And people are going to judge me. And she was like, yeah, people are going to have feelings about it.

But, like, that's not yours. And she ultimately was like, liberation is a. two-way street. No one benefits from you being half in on the relationship. So you making the courageous choice will align each person to the right thing. And like, don't delay the inevitable. Like, you got. Well, and I'm over here like your husband sees it. Like, that's the whole thing. It's just like, I, that was, to me, if I were, if I'm putting myself in your shoes, like the second, he's like, well, maybe you should day John and we should be open. I'd be like, okay. Now I have my permission. Let's call it. Like, I don't know. I'm just like, this is a very different situation.

Like you said, there's so much nuance. This is not you in a marriage where your husband was in the dark and you're sneaking around. It's very different. Yeah, it was very out in the open. I was not hiding. I've never heard of anything like this. I know. I mean, he was along with the ride.

John and I are about to be together. I actually thought, I mean, I knew where your book was going, but had I not watched clips and read other interviews, I would have been like, did they become a thruple? I mean, your husband was just around for a lot. of this. I know. I know my agent. I was like texting my agent as it was happening. She's like, has there been an orgy? Put that in the book. I was like, unfortunately, that is not the dynamic here. Yeah. So you separated with your husband and like the short story is you're now obviously married with John and your husband is remarried. And how long has, have you guys been married?

Almost three in November. Okay. Okay. I want to go back to something you said, which is like the relationship had been over for a long time. And I think that a lot of people are very judgmental of others when they move on super quickly. And to me, it is a really one size fits one type of thing. And for many, many people, they've been in loveless relationships, sexless relationships, that it's been over for a long time. There's no specific prescribed amount of time I need to heal before moving on to somebody. Yeah, I agree. I couldn't agree more. And like, I think women in particular, we grieve while we're in things because when we finally had the conversation ended, I wasn't filled with grief. I was filled with relief because I finally honored myself and did the thing that I knew I needed

to do. And I realized like all those years of me like asking for something and not being met. Like all of those and like the frustration and the loneliness and the like the sadness and all of those periods. I was like, oh, I grieve this when I was in it. And so. Yeah. That's why it feels easy, so easy to leave. And that's why I feel ready to move on. I've like, I've like healed what I needed to heal and process what I need to do. process while I was in the relationship. And all of those judgments are such projections, and we'll talk about this too with responses. And the reason why people say those things, how could you move on so quickly, is because they're fearing that it would happen to them and that

their partner or their future partner would blindside them and leave them and move on so quickly, not taking into account that this is not what happened here. And even if it was, it's really not your business. And everybody has a different story. And there's like, you know, you don't always know all the details. And so I always think that. And I'm sure you've dealt with that a lot with things that people have said. And it's, you can feel where it comes from. Like I can feel it. Like I see people commenting or judging on whatever story it is. And you're like, that is so about you and your fears and insecurities that we all have that you're projecting onto to someone else without taking into account all of the details of their story. Absolutely. It tells me much more about their pain than it does

about my own, like my own story. But that doesn't make it, you know, at first when I was leaving it was like the circle of friends in our community. And some people really got it. We're like, go Amber. Yes. Like I'm so happy for you. And other people were like, you're the most selfish person ever. I mean, said crazy things. And, you know, I got defensive and I tried to explain myself and he understood the story. And if they knew that he was like involved in the ending. And I was like, if I can just help them understand, maybe then they'll get it. And, you know, I think what I realized is that I didn't need anyone to get it because I got it. And you can. And that's all that matter. And I can. And no amount of explaining actually helped them get it because it was about their own pain. Yep. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Did you

have people in your life that are no longer in your life because they just couldn't understand it at the time? Yeah. I've probably lost like a a dozen relationships. Really? Yeah. I think there's a lot of judgment that comes with it. I mean, there's a clip that Vienna-Ferran posted with you and it's a lot of the comments on the posts and it's people saying stuff. like, well, marriage is hard and this is selfish. And to Ashley's point and your point, that's everyone else's shit and no one else to live your life besides you do. And quantify selfish to me, wanting to be happy. I was unhappy for 10 years.

Haven't I hit my quota of unhappy? The thing that bothers me the most in life is you didn't hear the story. You didn't read the story. You didn't like, if someone's listening to this now and they are having judgments, I would be like, what would you do? You would have stayed in it? Because here we are. You're in this happy marriage.

your husband is too. We have a happy ending here to people that were in a relationship where they weren't being fulfilled or now relationships where they're being fulfilled. It's just like, what else do you want? Yeah. What would you have wanted the outcome to be? I guess we're fired up about this. Yeah. So anyway. Most of the judgments come from people not knowing the actual story. The story. Just being like, oh, she just left a good man and like went for another man. Of course. They just have this. Yeah, the headline, I guess, the click base. as all of the information. I think life is really long.

And what a depressing thing to think that just because someone might think it's quote unquote selfish, we're just going to stay with one person that doesn't make us happy forever. People live longer than they ever have. I'm going to be stuck with somebody for 70 years. And why would you want to be with someone who isn't happy with you or doesn't want to be with you? You know, like reserve your judgments for people who just. Donald Trump.

abandon their kids or their pets if you wanted to, you know. So it's just like, but another grown person who's like, let them go off and find their person. I don't know. So I'm curious what this shift was because it sounds all very like easy cut and dry. Like my husband's so happy. Then he was like, be free little bird. But I mean, and it wasn't.

It was a roller coaster. And like he swung back and forth. And then like him and John confronted each other. Like it was. Oh. Yeah. It's in the book. But there, you know,

There was some part of him was like, I'm happy for you, but it was also like there were a lot of feelings. It was messy. I want to talk about your feelings, though, because it sounds like as a lifelong person that says like, push the feelings down, I'm fine. How did you change? I think there's people that are like, okay, well, was John the change? Were you the change? Like, how did you decide to get out of there? Yeah. No, you know, and I didn't know if John was the love of my life. You know, I had this feeling of like, he's my person. But like, what? Was he just a catalyst for me to leave his unhappy marriage or is he really the person that I'm going to build a life with? And I didn't know.

And but what I did know is that I no longer wanted to be in that marriage. And that was a choice I was making for me. And that was the self-honoring thing. And so I think it really paved the way for, I am no longer going to abandon myself. I am no longer going to disappoint myself so that I don't disappoint others. And I am going to have to tolerate the discomfort of other people being mad at me. And of other people not approving of my choices. And like, that's okay.

And like for me is this harmonizer and pleaser because that's how I stayed safe in my early environments. It was like the scariest thing because, ooh, I might, you know, we're wired to belong. And so belonging for me was in everybody being okay. And so the big lesson was like, am I okay? What do I want? What do I need? Is this serving me?

Is this true to me? which was so easy for me and my career, but is what I had to learn to do in love. And I think, you know, the title of the book is lovable, love able, because me learning, that's how I learned to love myself. And I feel like, can we really love another one? We haven't yet learned to, like, love ourselves in that way. Like, I have, and I, this is speaking to younger me,

but, like, you know, friends who are in that, like, pleaser don't want to disappoint me. They're, like, not direct. They don't say what they need. Like, I'm, like, unclear where they're, like, they stand and it's very hard like it's uncomfortable. I'm like, just tell me, you know, and that's like earlier me. Whereas like, just tell me what you want. Tell me what you need. Tell me if something's a yes or no. Like, help me. Help me. Like, help me. Like, I want you to do you. Even if you think,

like, I might have feelings about it. Like, I can handle those feelings. You don't need to those feelings. And so I think it's like, that has really like become my like way of being in the world, which I think serves everyone around me. I'm curious how you have changed in this relationship and how you've found yourself. You haven't abandoned yourself. It sounded like you felt fulfilled in your career and you were happy with your career before in your previous marriage. But I'm just curious of how it's changed. You feel like a different person in your personality, how you interact with others in your career. Like it feels like you've really found yourself. And I'm just, I always like to see how that manifest in other ways.

Yeah, you know, I think I'm not like trying to prove. I don't have that like I need to achieve this to be worthy or if I accomplish this next big thing. I'm not looking for that sense of okayness outside of myself. I feel like I've found that within. And so the things that I create come from a place of like this is meaningful to me and is an expression of what's what's important versus like will this resonate? Will others like this? I'm not, you know, my gaze I feel like is less. outward and it's more inward. And then, you know, here I was on the other side of a nine-year sexless marriage and now I'm getting into a relationship with a sexy man. And yeah, that'll do it. I'll never light you up. I'm sure people notice. But wait, but wait, but wait. But we commit our lives to each other and we have not yet kissed. And I decided to move down L.A. and to move in with him. And so he picks me up at L.A. with all my things. And like, we have our first kiss. But I am terribly. terrified that, yeah, I'm terrified that, like, if I can't, like, I'm so out of touch with that

part of myself because I haven't been in touch with that part of myself that I was like, oh my God, what am I going to, I don't even know how to do, what do I do this bedroom? I don't like, what do I do with this penis? Yeah. What's a penis? At one point, I texted my friend and I was like, what do I do with this penis? And she's like, you grab it, my friends. But it was like, I was like, I was like, I felt like a 16 year old girl. And I was like, oh, God, if I had I like can't measure up or like I felt like we were equals in a lot of areas of her life. But like if I can't measure up in the bedroom, will he leave me? And so all of these abandonment anxieties from my childhood that I never felt because I chose

relationships where I wouldn't have to feel them came to the surface. And so what I thought I was like easy breezy about my person. Woo, yay. Now finally let that marriage. Like, you know, leaving wasn't as much the hard part as like learning how to stay when it felt scary. Wow. I mean, we're laughing, but I do imagine that's a real fear of like relearning this skill and isn't really like riding a bike. Like, am I still a sexual person? Can I be a different person in this relationship? Look, go back to the way it was with my ex-husband, all of that. Totally, all of that. I'm like, yeah. I don't know. What do I do with my body in this bed? And is you're going to think I'm- sure. You figured it out, right? I don't know. Tell us about this. It is like riding a bike. You figure that shit out. Yeah. I just needed to get out of my head. I was like so in my head of like, oh, God, am I doing okay?

Is he like him this? Like, do I look okay? Does he like? Yeah. Am I like, am I doing the movie? I like, practice in front of a mirror one of the time. I love that. And then he saw me and I was like, you're just warming up for sex. I would practice other stuff. I mean, it's a skill. You have to flex. Yeah. Right. So we figured it out. Great. Yeah. Yeah. We have a kid. So I would assume. Right. Yeah. It worked out. What do you want people to take from this book? Yeah. I want people. know, I think, yes, this is a story of me leaving my marriage, but I think it's more than that. It's, you know, more than a love story. It's a self-love and self-liberation story. And I think we sometimes find ourselves trapped in the lives that we've created, whether that's like,

it could be a job, a relationship, it could be a friendship. It can be an aspect of ourselves, an identity that we've outgrown. And we kind of get to a moment we're like, wait, and we feel disconnected from ourselves, or we feel afraid to choose ourselves because of what other people might think. And I want people to, you know, make the choices that are right and true for them. I want them to, you know, maybe in another life, there is no other life. So like grab hold of this one and make the brave choice and do the thing that's right for you, even if people are going to have feelings about it. Because at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is how you feel about your life. I think that's so beautiful. It's really beautiful. Like I think we're all, I don't know,

most of us, you know, don't want to run around hurting people or causing harm. But you do have to put yourself first. You have to put on your oxygen mask before you help others. Like you do have to prioritize your own happiness. And unfortunately, there can be some collateral damage. And I think we all move through life, hoping that it's minimal. Yeah. Yeah. We don't yet. We can like allow people's pain and hurt to touch us. But that doesn't mean that we need to do things at the expense of ourselves. Yeah. And I think it's important to acknowledge, you know, yes, you met this man. and it feels like to other people, maybe optically a rash decision. But it wasn't.

I think you asked yourself every day for a decade. Am I happy? Do I want to be here? It wasn't just about meeting John. Eventually this would have blown up some way. Yeah. He just helped kind of speed it along. Totally.

Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. We know you have a book launch party tonight to get to get ready for. I wish you guys were here. I know. We would be there. We were there too. But tell everybody where they can. find the book, follow you, all the things you want to plug, any events, whatever you got going on.

Lovable is available. Every where books are sold. Amberay.com has all my offerings. And I'm Hey Amber Ray on Instagram. Okay, perfect. Thank you for everything. This is really special. This really was.

Yeah. So you guys get the book. You're going to love it. Thank you for your time and have fun tonight. Yeah. Thank you. Bye. Bye.

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