Girls Gotta Eat - The Truth About Millennials with Kate Kennedy

Episode Date: January 22, 2024

We are so excited to have the queen of millennial musings herself, Kate Kennedy, back on the show. We discuss her new book One in a Millennial, the motivation for sharing the nostalgia and real stories behind this generation of woman, the paradox we've faced in our career paths, body image in the 90s/early aughts and its effects on us today, and how religion/purity culture can shape your sexuality to the point of confusion at best and trauma at worst. We reminisce on the mall glory days, our favorite Bath & Body Works scents, why Ashley was a fashion icon in high school, and where Rayna got her prom dresses. Kate also opens up about her indecisiveness to have children (spoiler alert: she had one), and the advice NOT to give someone struggling with this decision. Before Kate joins us, we are revealing how long we stayed on the family plan, ranting about the pet peeve all guys do around the house, and having an important discussion about plane safety and flight attendant humor. AND we debut the Vibes Only cock ring and spill the tea on its name. Enjoy! Find Kate on instagram @katekennedy, check out her podcast Be There in Five, and get her new book One in a Millennial. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit our website for more info and shop Vibes Only. Thank you to our partners this week: Wildgrain: Get $30 off your first box, plus free croissants in every box, for a limited time at wildgrain.com/gge to start your subscription. Chomps: Get 20% off your first order and free shipping at chomps.com/gge. Blueland: Get 15% off your first order at blueland.com/gge. Nutrafol: Get $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping at nutrafol.com when you use promo code GGE. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What about those of us that spent our adolescents chasing moving targets of trends, of beauty standards, of popularity, of things that have absolutely no sustainability, but like on an ongoing basis, we just like followed what was socially acceptable. Like, what about our stories? Girls Got to eat. Welcome back. 301. 301.

I counted it to like now. I'll do an original song for every number. Wait, will you do it? 3.0.1. Did you make this up? We're still having fun. The old days are done. This is cute.

I keep going. 302. So next week you could rhyme it with Jew. Well, 302. Raina is a Jew. Raina is a Jew. and you could be blue. Azul's name means blue

and I'm from the 302. Hey! You guys, look out for 302 next week. One doesn't even rhyme with anything besides fun. Raina. Dunn. Hun. Okay.

Did you know Delaware? Full, all state, one area code. You know this right. You've told me that. I didn't like catalog it. I forgot. So you really can be like from the 302 if you're from the whole state. A whole state.

Three counties. Oh, damn. I actually, I know the first six. digits at your phone number. Do you know the first six digits of mine? I abdicate after six. I don't know last four. I used, I memorized this once. If you did, I'm memory slipping. Do you think it's the Botox? I think it's just our old age. But I mean, I've had no memory since I was 18. But I've said for a long time, I've been old since I was 18. Well, I know you're, Okay. Fibu. Killing it. What? Oh, shit. And then you guys could guess the other four.

Yeah. Six-nine, six. So you did guess it. That's really good. Okay. It's also the first six of my moms and just in case you want to. Oh, my whole family, because we were all on the family plan until, well, I'm still on it. I didn't, I didn't. Why come I was at the mall? I pay the bill. I want to be clear. Wait, that's so sweet. But I just never bothered. You know, it's just like, let's just stay on this as a family. I was at Ross Park Mall in Pittsburgh and I was walking by one of those kiosks and they're like, hi, man, blah, blah. And I said to me like, I'm already on the family plan. Don't worry about it. And he said, don't you think it's time at your age to get off? And I was like, fuck you. It is a never the age to get off. I'll have my mom pay my phone bill to the end of the time.

You were still on your... No, I was like 18 at the time. I was 18. Okay, so right before I did... This was decades ago? I started doing stand-up right before I turned 30. And part of my bit was this year, when I turned 30, I want to get off the family plan. Here I am 10 years later, still on it.

Pay it. I pay it now. And I'm tech support. Any issues my parents have, I have to deal with Verizon. But I was going to get off of it. And then I was like, we pay cheaper as three on a plan. Uh-huh. I'm going to handle it.

But the way Matt shamed me when he got off of it, it's like, yeah, Matt, I get it now. You have a spouse. You don't need to shame me too. Arlen got off. Arlen's still on it with my mom and I got off of it. Arlen has a spouse and I was kicked off of it. Actually, I think Matt would correct me.

I think he got off away before he was married. I think he bought a house and was like, Ashley, this is embarrassing for you. Matt bought a house at 26. That's the worst. We are. Okay. That's not on us.

Okay, but I do want to know who out there in their 30s plus that's on the family plan. Would you add sparklyze to your family plan? No. And still pick up the family with the bail. I would. You're like the more, actually the more phones we added this, the more money we save. I want to die on the family plan. Like, no one's getting on our plan until someone dies. If he could come in with one my parents pass, but no one's coming in and no one's getting out. This is the Bermuda triangle. So I'm not going to get on a plan with him. If I were to get married, it'd be like, we're still, I'm still with me. I'm still with my family. That's your connection to your family? Yes, forever. Arlen sends my mom a Venmo every month

for the phone bill. Arlen, who makes more money than the rest of the family combined, he should take care of the phone bill. He Venmo's my mom for his portion of the phone bill. Like, requests. No, he sends her the money. Oh, he sends her the money. Just for his portion, though. Just for his. He makes like 10 X what my mom ever made in her life. And he just Venmo's her his portion. That's insane. He could just pick it up. He could prepay it all for the year. Totally. It would be a blip on the radar and he's like, I'm going to let you pay for you. Oh my gosh. I'm going to empower you to pay for yourself. Do you think you like the word artisanal because it contains the word anal? I'm going to start saying the full anal. Artis anal. The way you said it sounded weird to me,

so I checked this feeling because I know it is like artisanal. You say artis? Like, no, I start artisanal. Like I don't, I don't pronounce. I don't pronounce it. It's funny to make fun of somebody then pronounce something. I actually thought you would say artisanal. Artisanal. Artisanal. I guess I don't say it that often, but then I looked at the word and I was like, that word's anal. This is very funny. Like, if you were saying the world artisanal, you're in some classy situation. So I think you should pronounce the anal hard. Or go hard, artisanal. Artisanal. Like if you're at Murray's cheese, that bread looks so good. Is that artisanal? Just really fuck with people. I heard, okay, I wish I could tell you how this person said it.

it was a food influencer that was doing a cooking video on TikTok and he said the word Tadziki, but he like sounded it out. Tadzakidi. Like that's what I would do. And he said it so confident that I was like, am I wrong? I was like, this is bold. That's giving Vibimap. That's given when I used to say Bibimap.

How do you spell? Okay, hold on. Tazaki. And he said it was so much confidence. I wish I could find this for you. I love that when you really just own it. Yeah. I was like, you know somebody says something and you're like, maybe I'm wrong.

Right. That's a big dick energy. We have some big, speaking of dicks and anal. We have really exciting announcements for you. So we are releasing all new products for Valentine's Day. We have new products, new toys, new packaging, new bundles. We just want you to have the wildest, spiciest Valentine's Day possible. and you've been begging for one of these.

Ashley's going to tell you about it. And another one we're just amped out of the collection. I'm so proud. They're so beautiful. You guys are the best orgasms with what we're about to give you. Yes, we teased it last week. We are teased it last week. But we are officially dropping the cock ring.

Today, January 22nd, the cock ring is here. You guys have been wanting this. It took a lot of R&D. And we have finally figured out what we hope will be a cock ring that is going to be one size fits most. Again, there's going to be extremes on every side, but this is going to fit most penises. We tried it out on a lot of people. We had an insane group chat about it.

And I'm going to pull it out. What I have learned about the dicks in our circle just through researching this. I know. It is pretty crazy. It's funny that it's like a work chat. So this is the Richard. Did you come up with this? It's named after my ex.

I know. But like, yeah, I came up with it. And also because we were talking about making a male name, Richard means dick. And it is also my ex-ism. Thanks for that. Okay, but here, I'm going to give you guys a little BTS. The original plan was to have a blue one and call it the Azul. And that was something I said jokingly.

And for years, I wasn't sure if it was a joke. I didn't either. And then it came down to it and everyone was like, Ashley, you really want to name a cock ring after your cute sweet angel dog. And I was like, actually, no. I wasn't sure if you were serious. And it was cute how it was posed to you. Like, it was a question.

Yeah, you guys are like, if she wants to do it, we'll let her. I mean, it's your dog. It's my company. Like, so. Other people own the company too, like me. But it is your dog. So if you want to name a cock ring after your dog, go off.

Now it's after your ex. I can't. How did we get from my dog to your ex? No, but like the Richard, the dick, the dick ring. Like, it's perfect. It's absolutely perfect. Classy name. and we did this really beautiful chic, hunter green color.

And again, this is our highest quality silicone that we just love so much. It is super soft and this is very stretchy. And so you're going to obviously put a hard dick in it. And the top is going to vibrate on the partner's erogenous zones. You know, if we're talking about a man and a woman, it's going to vibrate on your clit. And then there's a bottom piece too that is going to stimulate the wearer's testicles. So the whole point of the cockering is for your pleasure as a woman or as the person on the other side of it, but also to keep your partner harder, longer and really have a longer, more pleasurable experience for both parties.

And again, the little ball cupper is just a little added fun. I've never seen it in an S shape. So if you're watching YouTube or you go to our Instagram, it's an S shape. So it really hits every part of both people's anatomy. And it really is just going to get you off. Yeah, I mean, I've been talking about cog rings on this podcast since the really early days. I think it's been definitely a part of my personal brand, and I think that's why people wanted this so much.

We were getting DMs about it in comments and things like that. I mean, I remember having an ex that introduced me to one at 25. I remember we went to brunch, and then we went to the sex toy store in Atlanta. And back then, you know, everything was made of that, like, jelly. Like, even the rabbits we would buy at sex toy parties, like that jelly. It would like melt in the sun kind of material. Like high quality sex toys are not made of that today.

But that was really how we started. And I remember it was an orange tiger. Like the clit stimulator was a tiger, orange tiger for Clemson. Like a Clemson. We saw that we were like, how'd they even sell this? We both went to Clemson. It was crazy. So he would put it on.

It was just, you know, it would stretch for days because it was that like jelly material. And he would put it on and that like little tiger would buzz up against my clip. That's funny. You've always been a proponent of cock rings and I never was necessarily. And what we've landed on is something that I think will really appease a lot of people that want to try a cockering. Because it is so durable and stretchy, but firm. And on that note, Lou is a must here. Our juice up lubricant is amazing.

So we definitely recommend getting that to go with your Richard. The point is that it's snug and that it's tight and it's really going to maximize that blood flow and keep you harder. And then while we're here, I did just want to also talk about the new cleanup towel, the cum towel. We have our little carabiner. So it's like a golf towel style. And this is new. And this is going to be the trim and the writing in the same color as the Richard ring. So the former one, which is still for sale, is in a more pink shade.

And that says, thanks for coming. And this says strong finish. and we do sell that together as a gentleman's package, which we are so obsessed with having this gentleman package. But you can also, of course, buy those separately. And those are our two new male-focused products. Yes. And so the Cochering is a couple's toy.

And then our next release, also couples or solo toy. And that is the Charlie, you know, Richard and Charles are the same vibe. Can we just hone in on that? Like, we didn't even really plan that. I didn't realize until the other day. I've been saying on this podcast for years that Richard and Charles are the same energy. They're the same name. and we have the Richard and the Charlie.

I can't believe it. It wasn't on purpose. That's my grandpa's name. And two new toys are right. It's everyone's grandpa's name. My mom will be so happy. I didn't tell her. I am moralized, memorialized,

grandpa. Did you guys call him Charlie? Yeah. Oh, it wasn't Charles. It was Charlie. This is your grandfather. Charlie. Yes.

So this toy is a C. curve toy. It is fantastic for a couple of reasons. Of course, amazing silicone. It is a beautiful, dark, rich purple shade. And this is really going to hit your G spot. So I don't think we've sold a toy, which specifically will target the G spot. And because of the C shape of it, it will hit your clit and your G spot at the same time. Allison hits your G spot, but different type of fullness. This is a much smaller toy. Yeah, the Allison is the size of an actual penis. So this can be used as a couple or solo. I love it for lazy masturbators because it's C-shaped, you stick it in you, it vibrates against your clit and it stays in place really well. If you want to use it as a couple,

same thing, you insert it and you can have sex with it inside of you and something is hitting your clit while a dick is sliding in and out of you or fingers. It's just really nice. Yes, you could get fingered with this. When you are using this with another body part, whether it be fingers or a penis, you're going to need the lube on that. So get our juiced up lube. Our lube is elite. People are obsessed with it. We cannot keep it in stock. We continuously have to order more. So I'm just saying that because you know, you look at this and you're like, wait a minute, and how am I going to get this in with the dick? But just keep in mind that the way that it's curved is going to kind of go in that little pocket, that little cul-de-sac, if you will, where your G-spot is and then the penis is going to be kind of

flushed against it. So again, if you're watching YouTube, we're kind of demoing all this, but this is designed to go in and again, just stay in. Uh-huh. So if you aren't you in a cockering or a curved-shaped vibrated, we both of them for you, both toys connect to the apps, So I don't know if we've talked about this in a while, but we do have Vibes-only app. And the remote is in there for free for everybody, so you can download it, and you can control it or your partner. And it's just a really fun time for Valentine's Day. Yeah. Again, there is erotic audio in there as well.

That is part of a premium subscription. And so is the long-distance control, but we love that you can control a long-distance. So let's talk about the top-tier lazy is the Charlie inside you and someone else is controlling the vibrations. You aren't lifting a finger. I'm the laziest masturbator. That's really for me. Someone else is taking control of this. and you're not even touching it.

Like, it's like a ghost is in the room. Just like, you do it. You do it. You had a long day. You deserve it as well as up here next to what we didn't name after. And then also just wanted to mention the boxes are new colors. So we have really beautiful color palette and all the vibrators formerly came in our standard color box.

And this is going to be the darker box and the lighter color box. And we're so excited about that. And last week we mentioned the vanilla frosting blow gel and that is back. And this flavor is totally elite. I was like doing a little taste test last night again. Like I remember it, but I wanted to remind myself. I was eating it last night and I, you're not supposed to eat it. I was tasting it with my neighbor, not on his dick just in front of him.

And I pumped it and the thing just landed right on my vagina. Did he eat it all? I was like, do you want to get that? Could you get that for me? Just take casual. Before you know it, he's eating you out. I did the opposite where I like got up and like scrubbed it off of my sweatpants and then it was walking around a giant wet stain on top of my vagina in front of him.

It is the most platonic relationship with some. somebody that I'm so attracted to. Not the wet spot. A sheet, like a green pants. A yellow flavored wet spot. You had Richard green pants on. Yeah. So get on that for Valentine's Day.

The Raina is sold out. We will be coming back with a new color. So the Raina will be back. Our Air Pulse vibe, Raina in a new color. You can go to the website, sign up for the newsletter. We'll let you know when she is back in stock. But in the meantime, get these new toys and play around and create a date night for Valentine's Day that is inside the house.

That's what I love more than staying in. So stay in and get off. Do it. Yeah. It's giving quarantine. You remember people that couldn't smell her taste and they were doing all kinds of weird stuff? I think about that email all the time.

When we got back out on the road post-COVID when we were crowdsourcing stories, people were like, my partner and I both had COVID, we got into some nasty shit when you couldn't smell her taste. I was just living free. You wouldn't wash my pussy for days. You can't smell yourself. You can't smell it? What are you going to do?

Well, speaking of my neighbor, he's been staying with me for the week. You have a full-blown roommate I'm living for it. I really like it. I'm really enjoying it. I sat on the bed last night, watch him tap dance. He's a tap dancer. He's good. Yeah, he's good.

Was he pro? He was like a professional tap dancer. He's loud and proud of it. So hot. He could do anything and it would not bother me. But I've just been thinking like, and I'm just been thinking like, and I'm wondering, like, what your thoughts in this? Like, so he's been staying with me for the week.

And his stuff is, he's not, like, so messy. He's being respectful. It looks like a bomb went off in his bedroom. But, like, he's being pretty respectful around the rest of the house. But, like, his stuff is around. Like, cups, water bottles, some trash, whatever. And, listen, I've lived with men in the past. It's just, I feel like in my old age, I've gotten really anal retentive about my space.

Like, I am psychotic. Like, every night before I go to bed, I put every single thing in its place to the point that I'm just like, is this a problem? Am I capable of living with a person now? And listen, I know it's only been like a few days. But like, I feel like it's not bothering me as much as I thought it would. And I think that hopefully it's just that I have a certain standard for how I want to live. Yeah.

But I could like let somebody else be in my space. Okay. Listen, all of you are like, try living with a man for more than a week. And, you know, I have. But it's easier to tolerate anything when you know that's finite. But like, it's just been a long time since I lived in a man and people just like, I'm not living with a man. But left stuff around my house. And like, I had to just deal with it because I'm not trying to make somebody like nitpaping.

at a person constantly. Are you like that? Well, so, because you never lived with a boyfriend. You never had to me move in and like share a lease with you. I did like for a short period of time. Like it wasn't like years, but it was months. But that was a while back. So I kind of want to speak on it and like where my life is now. I think I become tidier and neater and cleaner like every year. Like I have turned into not anal retentive. I wouldn't call myself that, but like really clean and like really neat. And like everything. needs to be in its place and I don't want clutter anywhere. But when Sparkleyes comes, like his stuff, it's not everywhere. He's super neat. I've been to his home. He's really neat and

clean too, but like there's just more stuff. It's just another human in your home. So there's like a suitcase or a duffel bag and then there's just like stuff on the counter and, you know, we're maybe having wine or we're having food. Like there's just more stuff and I have to be like, Ashley, it's just, it's fine. And when he leaves, it'll be gone. But I wouldn't be worried about living with him because he is so neat and clean, but it's just more stuff. It's just stuff. Yeah. It's more stuff.

Like, you're tidying after you. You don't have to clean up your side of the street. Yeah. And another person's like in your home. I just, I don't know. I deal with it because it's finite. But I don't know what I'm like anymore. Like living with a person.

But again, like, he's really neat and clean. So I don't have to worry about this. Like, if I found him to be really messy and really sloppy and like dirty, I mean, I've seen his bathroom. You know, I know he cleans before I come and visit. But I still know him as like a, really. We'll just donkey kick the Richard on the tail. The Richard box and the Charlie.

He's pissed. He wanted his namesake. But this is like a real thing. Like I think a lot of people are on the same level, like a little messy here and there. They don't mind. Like they don't really think about some of that cleanliness type stuff and they find a person that's the same way. And then I think there are people that are so mismatched and it drives you crazy.

It would make me insane. I've never lived with anybody that was messy. Everybody I've lived with has been like highly tidy or terrified of me. Uh-huh. To the point that they will clean up after themselves. I cannot be in this cycle of like, please clean up after yourself. My mom would like leave notes around the house for my dad. Like real passive aggressive, should there be a towel on the floor?

She'd live like a post-it note on the towel. Like, I can't live like that. Well, when I said this before that like when I did live with my ex, I realized how you have to pick your battles. And I had a conversation with him early on of like, can you please help me with the dishes and this and that? But about like the towels. And he was never going to put a towel in a towel rack.

He was going to throw it over the top of the shower or he was going to, you know what guys have to do, put it on a door. Do you know how triggering that is for me because I can't reach that high? So it's up there and I just can't even get it. And when I pull it down and just scrapes across the wood like that. Oh my God. What is it? I hate it.

Every guy wants to hang a towel in a door. They're just like, Kobe. Like, they want to put a towel in a door in a hotel. There could be 10 racks. There could be hooks. So easy to hang on a hook. There could be a butler sitting there being like, yes, sir, let me take the shoe. And they'd still put it on top of the door.

They want to hang a towel on a door. bad. Why are they... It's in their soul. Do you think they think it's like masculine? They can reach the top of the door? They're like, look what I can do that you can't. And you pull it off and it's like, there's wood chips on your towel. Your towel's ripped. Every single person had stalled a door was like, we want you to stand this down. Yeah. Who was ever smooth the top of a door frame? But they should. But I don't care. I made this decision early on. I will move your towel. Like, I can't let that be a battle that I'm going to fight because there's,

There's something in a man that needs to put a towel where it doesn't go, and I'm willing to accept that, and you can put up with one of my female quirks. Okay, but what I don't understand is, like, what happened with your mom? Like, okay, I'm, like, sitting here having this, like, self-talk, like, I can deal with this. This is fine. Like, I don't want to nipick every single thing on my partner

because I'll do that about other stuff, too. Like, your mom never said anything to you about it also. Like, your mom doesn't have to worry about emasculating you. She can just, like, railroad you. It doesn't matter. Like, every toilet seat in my house has just been up for days. I can't. I have always gotten really lucky with that.

with any man that I've, like, dated, been around, whether they really self-correct when they come in. I can't with a toilet-st-up. Here's my thing. I think moms are tired. And as long as it's not on the floor or in their bed, they're fine. The towel.

I was like, where are she going? You're right. I pivoted. Well, on the floor, I was like, pee on the floor. That makes sense. That does happen. But then you went bed. And I was like, huh.

I'm sorry. Let me circle back. to towels. I feel like you're a mom and you're like, if they can just take it off the floor, I will just literally throw in the towel. I've won the battle. I will never win the war, but the battle's fine. Right. Like put it on anything that can hang it. That's fair. I don't know, mom's way in. You had to give up somewhere along the line. Like, as long as it's not like, soggy in the bed or on the floor, that's fine. My neighbor has four brothers. How tired is his mom? I just can't imagine. Like the toilet seats are all up. If that was my man,

would say something. I'm not going to like harass a friend of mine to like put the toilet seats down at the time. But if it's my man, we are going to correct this now or I'm going to withhold sex. Can you imagine four boys what the towels actually are like in that house? You could crack one in half. Yeah. The mom was probably like, I don't care where you put it. I just don't want to have to crack it in half. There's so much seam in my house. How bad does a house smell? Four boys. It's just like come and be oh. And if you have four boys, boys, you wanted a girl. So bad.

You wanted a girl for definitely the third. Just kept pumping him out. And the fourth boy. Listen, if you wanted four boys, that's your truth. No judgment. But I just, I feel for a family with four boys, a mom. I do. She just had to give up all her hopes and dreams of anything ever smelling good or not being covered and come.

The amount of semen in that. That's disgusting. Like, you were killing for a daughter humping a pillow. Like, you would love it. Did you have pillows? No. I know a lot of people there are like the side of like a couch. Raina, we know.

I didn't do that. Oh. I just, I heard other people say it and I was like, that's a great idea. And how did I never think of that? I was disgusting. Oh,

you didn't hump anything? I was still a flirt. I was never not DJing. I know. But I never once. No pillow, no couches. You never thought to hump anything. Not,

it never even crossed my mind. I'm disappointed in myself. Like your stuffed animals or anything. I wish I would have. How smart. I've been so creative. creative. I found something that worked when I was like nine and I just leaned in.

Okay. I wait until 11, you guys. Sixth grade. I have to ask you a question now that we have these pink mic covers. Do you feel like you have to coordinate your outfit? I didn't even think about it. I didn't either, but now that I'm wearing all black. We have a lot going on on this couch.

But like I'm wearing all black and I feel like it really pops with my outfit. Are a mess up here. I think we have all the, this. Deldos and dogs. Dildo's dogs. That's our new podcast. Dogs. That's our new blog.

Like cupcakes and cashmere. Do you remember every blog was something like that? Like that was the format back in the day. Yeah, something and something. Like, why had Woody and Pretty and like it was just always something and something. That's a funny thing because we're talking about millennials and the millennial zeitgeist and all that today. And that's probably something that Kate has obviously thought about or wrote about. Okay.

I have a question for you. Okay. Because we were talking about like travel and planes in this Alaska Airlines door that just flew off. Also, that was a woman pilot, by the way, you know. And she, I mean. I love a woman pilot, and they, like, release the audio of, like, how calm she was, which most pilots are going to be calm in those situations. I'm not saying this is just, like, strictly to women.

But I just love that, you know, because people want to be like, women are going to be, like, hysterical and then emotional. And it's just, like, cool, calm collected, landed the plane. I'll tag a woman in for anything over a man. I want a woman doing everything all the time. Some men are a little too empathetic during the flight. Also, they're just like, this is about to get really bad for all of you. You're going to feel like you're going to die.

You're not. Okay. So, if you were about to die. we have an emergency situation, do you think you would know what to do with your safety equipment? Fuck, no. I'm not, no, truly like, gun to my head if I was flying with my child. And I was just like, I have to make sure this child or me does not die. No clue.

So I'm going to make it a resolution for this year that I am going to really pay attention to the flight attendants. I'm always paying attention, but maybe it's going in when out the other. I'm going to digest the information when they're doing the safety demo, whether it's in person, or it's on the screen, and I'm going to learn how to do this, and I want someone to test me. I want you to do it on the podcast. When do you want to be tested by?

Let's make it measurable. We should have a flight attendant. Come on. Do this. We have flight attendant girlies. I love them. Oh, my God. Tons of them.

And they could absolutely test you. I should call that one that I got in a fight for. Four. That I defended her honor. No, I just, I think we could figure out the oxygen mask. I'm not worried.

But when it comes to the life jacket, also, I know that the seat is a flotation device, but again, got into my head, we're in the ocean, the Atlantic Ocean. I mean, I guess, what, you just lift it up? The whole seat comes up. I think it just pops up. The whole seat just comes out.

I think you just rip it out here. Everything is, you know, also I can swim and I have a life vest. So I'm not too worried about the seat, but it depends on how long you have to swim for. Like if it's hours, you're tired. I would just drown. You're just hanging on like Jack on the door. Yeah. And you're in a flotation device.

Maybe you would have had a Boeing 757. If we get a cushioned. Yeah. Okay, let me ask you, when you sit in an exit row. And they say, like, are you capable of blah, blah, blah, blah? Probably not. Not in a million years. When they say, can you lift 50 pounds?

I'm like, I just could barely lift my suitcase, ma'am. As always, what, like 35 pounds? 30 pounds? No, he's 45. He would be a struggle for me. No. I would struggle, but I can do it because it's 50 pounds. Like, my suitcase is 50 pounds.

I can. Also, I don't think you need to lift it. I think you need to lift it. I think you need to push the door open. And someone else is probably going to do it for me. Like, they're going to look at me and they're going to be like, I got this. It's like when I get on planes and I get suitcase anxiety that I can't put it up with. You should not be sitting in exit row.

No, I've no fucking business in those exit rows. Like when they're like, ma'am, are you willing and able? They should be like, prove it. Because everyone's dying on that plane. That is so funny. You have to do a weightlifting test to be in the exit row. You should. If the whole plane is resting on me, we're going to die.

Yeah. You know what I love, though, because we're talking about safety demos. I love a spicy flight attendant. nothing I love more. Like that guy on the plane, there's only been three times we've ever sat together on a plane. That one night, oh, and he was, it was a Philly Flight Attendant. Yes. The Philly flight attendants are my faves. But whether you have good jokes or not, whether you are like first time in an open mic bombing, I love it. I love someone giving it. They're all. A lot of those are on Southwest. They have the funny flight attendants. They're like the spicy planes. But you're right. Delta,

they take themselves really seriously. They really do take themselves very seriously. they're the most serious. And I, listen, I appreciate it. We love Delta. But, like, that's the airline. That's the airline for non-jokesters. American doesn't care what you do. They're going to make jokes.

That was American when we were flying Chicago to Philly. What was that airline that we flew to Greece? And the whole plane was just up in the aisles the whole time. We're going to meet you know. Easy Jet. Easy Jet was a party plane. I feel like we were at the club. Every person was up out of their seats.

Drinking a white claw. It was just everybody had a seltzer. Full scent. It was great. Like when they were like, everybody sit down, it was like the lights came on at the club. People were like, oh, come on. Like when you made to go back to them, like, we have to land. But I was just thinking, like, I love that someone would have taken a job as a flight attendant so they could run jokes.

Like, I was just thinking, like, it's very funny to have a job where you get to be on a mic and you have jokes. Like other jobs, I was trying to think of other jobs, like fitness instructor, Cody Rigsby, Bobby West Side. Togboat, tour guide. Oh, like, tour guide. I feel like, okay, that's what it gets awkward. Like the Chicago River Cruise, it's always... Why do you say tugbo? Why tugbo? I don't know.

I was trying to think River Cruise in Chicago. Every time I'm on one of those, also I've taken like a cruise in Seattle like around the water. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every time I'm on one of those, the person thinks they're the funniest jokester and I feel bad for them. Well, sometimes they are.

Like sometimes that's like, I know comedians in New York who do tours. Like this guy, Tom Delgado, like I would love to be on one of of his New York tours. He's a real comedian. And so those are like, make it more fun. Like, I remember way back in the day I did the Sex and the City tour and like the tour guy was really funny. So a lot of comics do that. They like dabble in tour guiding. Hear me out. If you are going to be a comedian that wants to like train via one of these professions, this is my hierarchy. Boat worst.

No, I feel bad. It's outdoor comedy. That is the worst. Outdoor shows like kill me. They're tough. Number two, buses. Is there a semi-contained? Yeah. And especially if you're downstairs inside. The top tier of funny is in a plane. You're in a tube. You're in a glass can't go anywhere.

They're just in the tube with you. Right, right. Like, you definitely echoes in there. Yeah. So that's where I think that, like, you have the best chance. Yeah. Well, if I wanted to be a comedian in another industry. If you wanted to be a comedian.

If I wanted to be a comedian. If I wanted to come out of retirement. No. If I wanted to be in another industry and tell jokes, I think I'd go. fitness instructor because those are like, we talk about Bobby Westside and he's so funny and like that's what you want to take their class.

Like Cody Rigsby, I'm there for the jokes. I don't even really like his workouts as much. I'm there for the monologue. I know. I'm there for the shit talking. I know. What they let him get away with? Crazy.

But any of the Peloton instructors, like I like the ones that have funny things to say. Like it really helps the workout go quicker. So like Izzy too. Like Bobby and Izzy are good friends and Izzy's a Barry's instructor. Like, if you have a little humor to it, like, that's what I'm looking for. So that would be the job I would pick. You're going flight attendant. Yeah.

If I wanted to, like, practice my craft, if I wanted to become a comedian, would you do, like, I get really animated? Because you know I'm trying to learn how to dance. So I would just also incorporate some moves into it. You're like, you bring the oxygen mask. Well, people would pay attention if I was, like, twerking with the oxygen mask. What if you were being sexy? Ew.

Like, what if you were like, you really suck on my finger? No, I'm just thinking about leaving like, and then you put on your life vest like this. Like, what if you got sexy with it? But yeah, I took like my top off and then put the vest on. Like flight attendant fashion. All right. Anyway, we do love our flight attendant girlies. We have listeners that message us from time to time. And it's an honor to be in the skies with you. Well, we are so excited to get into it with Kate. We can't wait for you guys to hear the conversation. We're ready for our guest today. Okay, guys, we are so excited to welcome back our good friend and returning guest.

She is an entrepreneur, author, podcast host, and pop culture commentator. Her absolutely brilliant podcast, Be There in Five, covers pop culture, influence her behavior and truly so, so, so much more. Her newest book, One in a Millennial, comes out January 23rd. Please welcome to the show, Kate Kennedy.

Thank you for having me. Thanks for being here. And since the last time you're on the show, you've added mother to your resume. I have. You didn't say mother in her credits. I was saving it. Is it in your bio yet? Instagram mother. Mama. It's got to be mama. It's actually not. And I talk about, I talk about how people introduce themselves on social media in the book at one point. I call it like digital Pemdas. You know, please excuse my dear aunt Sally. Order of operations and math. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I remember that. I think it's interesting what people, what order people choose, like wife, mom career or like career wife, wife, mom. And I notice the people I love to follow, they often do lead with like wife, bride emoji. kids, baby emoji, then themselves.

But I haven't had that shift yet, is I guess what I'm saying. So I appreciate you introducing me by my own identity first. Well, also, we like to give people updates on your lives and like what you've done. Yeah. Would you get married since? The last episode you did is called Why Aren't You Married yet? But I was married. But I talked about...

That's a funny title because she is married yet. I talked about how frustrating it was to date for a long time and then everybody is bothering you about when you're getting married. Yes. Okay, so I, you know, I feel like I can't not bring this up, because this was on my mind a lot, pop culture-wise, over Christmas was the Simone Biles and her husband think, did you see this? I did, yeah. I don't even need to recap it in full, but basically they did an interview. People just didn't really love the tone of the way her husband spoke about meeting her and starting to date her and, you know, he's the catch and she chased him and this and that.

Whatever it works for them, like, the quote I kept seeing was like, if you like it, I love it. It's fine. So then people kind of were bombing in her comments and things of like, look at Simone Biles, the most decorated athlete of all time and this guy, you know, like, which I'm sure it's like, she doesn't love that either. You know, you're not supporting her by doing that. But I couldn't help but notice that like the first thing in her bio is wife to this guy. Like I just, Simone Biles. Maybe it's like a joke.

It's not a joke. She really loves this man. Like she does view him as another, maybe another achievement. I don't want to speak on behalf of her. but clearly to put it above her Olympic gold medalist, the goat. First thing in her bio, your bio, it's your priorities. Absolutely. That's kind of funny, though.

She's like, I'll just toss it to them. I think she's also recently married. She's probably really excited. The Olympics were a longback. You know, like, she's probably like, this is hotter on my mind. Well, and to your point, that might be her choice, and that might be how she self-identifies. But I really do think social media bios are an interesting microcosm.

It's like, here we have this landing page where we can glorify ourselves. But if you choose or not to lead with who, you are to someone else, I think it's just an interesting thing that people do. And I find most people get to themselves or their career third. And toward the end of the book, I kind of ask a lot of these questions about identity as I was thinking about becoming a mom, because then your identity does kind of shift to. Mama. Yeah, to Mama. Faith family football. That is the tagline of my Finsta. Every person that bullies us on the internet actually is a yoga instructor with Faith Family Football in their bio. It's not even the faith. It's not love. It's not faith. Faith family.

my football, but yes, it's be kind, always. The meanest things I've ever seen about myself is someone that says, like, mother, yoga instructor, love and light. Right, life coach. I love light workers. Do you, like, come across a lot of light workers? No, they like work on your light. It's kind of like, like, like, an electrician. It's kind of like a new agey job title where, like, you help people find their light. I don't really know what it requires to be a practitioner of light, but it's just a favorite cue of mine for like, this is maibs a cult. Yeah. You know. This is cult light. Yeah. Worker. Okay. So you came on last time and you were married. You had your husband blocked on Instagram. And you have been really open about your indecision of children. And you are a new mama.

Go off, mama. So like, I'm sorry. I don't know why I'm saying this. I actually love to say mama, but it's funny. So we just, we want to talk about a lot of the book today, but we did want to start with that because that is a big change in your life. And it's so fascinating to us is, you know, someone who certainly doesn't want children rain as like, you know, 90%, but the door is still open. But I loved how open you were about it. And then ultimately that you decided to go for it.

It drove me crazy. Like the farther I got into my 30s, how kind of the apex of my career was met with the decline in my fertility. And how do you control the timing of something you can't control? You know, and I mean, the ultimate joke is this book is coming. out. I found out I was pregnant two weeks before turning it in. I've recorded the audiobook nine months pregnant. I mean, like, it just is kind of the ultimate manifestation of like, you have no control over this. And I think what's interesting about our 20s and 30s is like you have your choices

and your chances. So even if you choose that you want to have kids, you might not be able to. Like, you know, I think we're all very harsh on ourselves about the course our life takes. And for me, I didn't have baby fever. Like, I waited for so long to wake up and have this all-consuming desire to have kids, but it never happened. And I think what ultimately helped me was realizing, like, well, babies are babies for like a small period of time. Like, I think it's okay to not love being pregnant, to not love babies. Totally.

And to feel like toddlers and young kids are kind of a lot, but a baby becomes a toddler who becomes a kid, it becomes a person. And parenting is about so much more than just the baby phase. And I was like, oh, maybe that's the disconnect is that I didn't necessarily want a baby, but I always knew I wanted to be somebody's mother. Okay. You felt sure in that decision. Yeah.

I felt sure that I wanted to, like, raise a human. But I think I felt very overwhelmed by the timing of the most chaotic face. I love the way that you phrase that because, like, I don't love the idea of being a mother to a small child. But like, I look at Ashley's relationship with her mom. And I think, like, how wonderful would it be to look at your child out in the world and be like, I did that. I fostered that.

I'm so close with this person. Like, what a wonderful feeling that would be. Yeah. But then there's no guarantees. Yeah. You could have four boys. We talked about that in the intro. You could too.

Okay. So here's this thing that I said. say, and I'm happy for you to debunk it or anyone, really. I just feel like, well, I know to be true that being a parent is really hard work. And if you're a good parent, like, it's around the clock, dedication, it's tiring, it's exhausting. You know, I'm watching like my brother and his wife and all my friends and family have had kids. So to me, I've always said, like, you have to want it so badly because it turns into your whole life. You know, like, I couldn't imagine being on the fence and then pulling the trigger with the hopes that you deliver a baby and it all

just falls into place. So do you feel like that's accurate at all? I mean, but I guess you're saying you felt sure that you wanted to be a mother. Well, no, I think that's a fair point. And I think that my biggest message of all isn't like become a mom or don't. It's to explore your indecisiveness. I think we all deserve to explore the indecisiveness. And the advice that drives me nuts is if it's not a hell yes, it's a hell no, because life is just not that simple nor binary. I said I was kind of like 51% majority stake and like being interested. And when I make decisions, I like don't really need to be on the polls because I can't understand something I haven't experienced before. I just have to get as close as I can. But I think with parenting, like, there's a lot of good reasons to be on the fence.

And a lot of those reasons are very good reasons not to have kids. And I think it just depends what your reasons are and you have to explore that. And I think for me, I realized it was like, I'm not that into other people's babies. young kids. But then one of my things was like, I don't find myself to be super maternal. But that ended up being really misguided because I misunderstood. I was conflating the difference between maternal and like domestic, which are two totally different things.

Totally. I'm not very domestic at all, but like, this is my kid and I'm his mom, therefore I'm maternal. And I'm like the best mom I can be for him because I'm me and I'm his mom. It has nothing to do with like my traits in like the kitchen. You know? Yeah. But like I have like the most maternal loving sweet mom who, but we're very. different. I kind of thought, I don't know. So my point of exploring your uncertainty is like,

you might be believing stuff that's like not even accurate to the experience. And if I had said, I'm not maternal so I shouldn't do this, that actually wouldn't have made sense because you don't need to be. I like the exercise and I had the opposite thing happen. I like, I always thought I would be a mother. I thought it was a foregone conclusion. Everybody has babies. I'm going to have a baby. The closer I got to an age where it made sense and all my friends having kids, the less I wanted to do it. The closer I got to that experience, seeing all my friends, be parents and what it takes to be a great parent the less I wanted to do it. And checked in with myself and was able to say, like, this doesn't necessarily seem like that much fun to me. Right. Yes. Well, I like that you

said, if it's not a hell yes, it's a no. That's not a mindset people should take because you can get new information and change your mind and explore the indecision, like you said. Yeah. Because someone's like, well, I don't know. I'm like 28. I don't know. I'm not, I'm unsure. And then you could like totally flip the script. Like, you almost went the other way. So I think it's always worth like exploring an Over time, my fear is always that people rush into something they didn't want the first place. Oh, totally. Because of society or culture or whatever. I think that per like Raina's point too, I think it's interesting how we're just like, especially

young women are talked to about marriage and babies, like they're these inevitabilities and they don't even explore desire. Like at a point I was like, are kids something I really want? Are they something I always thought I'd have? And those are kind of two different things. And your desire is a disconnect. And I think getting to a point where you're like, oh, this is maybe not something I want. is like really important. And I think that just because you always pictured your life a certain way

doesn't mean it has to be that. Totally. Yeah, there are a lot of like cultural forces that I call it a love marriage, baby carriage pipeline. You just kind of like grow up assuming that's your future. And it doesn't have to be at all. So yeah, I think there are endless things you can analyze and pathologize inside this conversation. And I did it openly because I actually don't think that people trying to decide have much of like a voice or a space in society. Because you don't want to offend. somebody that's trying and it's having trouble. And I did, by the way, like, I've experienced loss. I've experienced infertility, like the whole gamut. And I think what I just realized is, like, kids sit at a weird intersection of joy and heartbreak. And we have to make space for all

conversations. And while some can be offensive, depending on what phase you're in, they still deserve to exist. And I think if you can't talk about this stuff with friends and family and your partners, like, I just don't want us making bad decisions to your point of like rushing into something or regretting something later, like just explore it. And it's not as scary as I thought it was going to be. I think I was very scared of even asking myself these questions because of the role time plays in our choices.

Yeah. And I think that, like, we say this all the time, that, like, our decisions aren't a judgment call on other people's decision. Exactly. It's like, and that's how people take them sometimes. At this point in my life, like,

I'm also nearing not being able to have a kid. I'm 38. My, you know, your fertility drops off a cliff. And so, like, as I come closer to accepting that maybe I might not do that or might not want to, to if other people want to have a kid at 38, great. It's not a judgment call on you. Right.

I know. I mean, I just love the point that you just like stated so eloquently about talking about this stuff. I always go back to this Chloe Kardashian thing of her talking about not feeling bonded to her son and how people came for her. Not all people. Again, it was probably down the middle of people being like, thank you so much for speaking about this.

Because moms don't want to admit that. Right. There's so much shame and guilt surrounding it. And for this huge name to come. come out and talk about, you know, postpartum or just, like, not feeling that bond is like, was so huge, I thought. And the way that people came for her, like, broke my heart. It was like, she didn't have to share this. Right. This was like so generous to begin with. Right. You know, or any mom, famous or not that is willing to kind of discuss those, like, shameful feelings.

I think the worst thing we can do is encourage each other to, like, hide or go further into silence. Like, there's so much invisibility to women's experiences. Yeah. And you guys are right. Like, your choices are not a commentary on somebody else's life choices, but they deserve to take up space because somebody else might be needing to be greeted in that spot. Right. And I think the hardest part about 20s and 30s is like we are all in such different phases. It can make it hard to relate to one another.

And I think the women-led media is important because it can greet you at that moment. And yeah, I think it's important. And that's interesting you bring up Chloe because that was brave of her. It was. How generous to share something so dark and vulnerable and put that. out into the world and to be attacked for it. And I got that too when I was like openly, I did like a lot of podcasts about not knowing if I wanted kids. And the response was kind of like how lucky you are to not know when I really want them and can't have, you know. We acknowledge that too. And I have so much

empathy for that situation. I was, and then I ended up being in it. But I still think that that conversation was valid even after experiencing that heartbreak because the message I would want my kid to get from my like content, let's say ever comes across it isn't, you didn't know if you wanted me. It's like, no, having you was such a big choice and such an immense responsibility. it deserved the exploration to make sure I was as close to certain as possible. And the thing I found is that all of the bad stuff about parenting doesn't offset the joy you feel. And without that context, I wasn't really getting the full picture. And now I would say that it's like, I'm so so incredibly glad I went down that path, but it's not for everybody.

Great. Well, how's it going? Honestly, like, I've genuinely really, really enjoying it. And I think that one side of overthinking, it is that you could analyze it a little bit too much. But I think for me, that's what, I don't know, that's what I needed. And I think my expectations were so low. I'm so pleasantly surprised by it all and having like the best time. Okay, love to hear that. I'd love being a mom. It reminds me of like when I first got my dog tugboat. It's like my husband, I would smile and laugh so much because

of this baby. And it just brought so much joy and it's just really fun to like see him grow up. And I just didn't enjoy it so, so much. But I do, my partner does do half of it. I mean, like, actually. Totally. So I think that's a big piece of it too. Have you unblocked him on Instagram? I have. Oh, my God. Exciting for him. Yeah.

I know. If you guys didn't listen to Kay's first episode, it wasn't that they were to fight. It was like shit. I want him seeing her shit. He didn't get it. Okay, if anybody out there has a partner in a completely different industry than them, do you like metal in their work discord?

Do you like chill on Microsoft teams? No. It's their own world, their own identity. Don't get in mine. Well, I like this is so funny. I like when our partners, come to shows. I'm trying to put butts in seats. Yeah. Well, now, I've, I've since changed my tune, but I think my message there was when you're getting started, I actually think the thing that

discourages people the most from taking a risk is the people in their immediate life or the audience that their thing's not even for. Right. So if you're making a podcast for women of a certain demographic and you're getting all your input from a man that's not of it, that's bad business. That's so funny. You said that because when I started, I started a food blog for Instagram so many years ago, which everybody thought was the dumbest thing they'd ever heard. It was so annoying that I was taking photos of food. Like, no one was doing that. People used to make fun of that a lot.

Everyone made fun of it. I was like an original. Who just came out recently? What's it? Millie Bobby Brown. Yeah, that was so stupid. I was like an original OG. Like food Instagram account was one of the biggest in the country.

Everybody thought it was so dumb to take photos of your food. I remember my brother one morning, we were in Dallas having brought to my dad. They put the food down. I went to take a picture. He pushed his plate away and he was like, how much longer are we got to do this bullshit? I took my brother on all expenses paid trip to New Orleans to state the Ritz Carlton. on food blogger money. And I meant Ashley, because I started that, so who's stupid now?

I think it's funny to, because we'll talk about some of the throwbacks of the way we grew up, like, pre-social media, pre-smart phone even in the book. And it's funny to, like, think about taking a photo of your food in the early 2000s with your point-and-hoot. Like, it's funny to think about, like, we would, that we didn't do that. Yeah. Like, no. You know, that came with smartphones in the first place.

Like, I had a camera on me. I had my Olympus or my Canon. and I was going to fancy meals at O'Charlie's, but I wasn't taking photos. It was the inverse. Now, can you think of anything on your feed right now that you scroll past faster than a group photo? No interest.

Yeah. But food? Thank God there's food on Instagram. How would I know where to eat and what I'm going to eat there? Exactly. No, we only did large groups of people. And now that is not the vibe. It's just under three or under, yeah.

Or show me, like, it's still life. or small groups, people or selfies. There are a lot of group photos in my feed. But sometimes they're just the first photo. It's been too much of me. It's been too, you know, they're just sometimes the lead photo of a carousel. I need people to know that I have a lot of friends. I think that it's all about balance.

Yeah. Can I ask you a question, though? I think group photos are like astrology and that I'm like only looking at mine. Like I'm only looking at myself in a group photo. Yeah. Do you survey if everybody looks good and do you look at like everybody's horoscopes?

Okay. Great point. No and no. That's insane. Like, why would I read what an Ares is supposed to do this month? Right. So then how are people who are like,

you're such an Ares? And I'm like, how do you know what an Ares does? I think kind of low level. I feel like it's respectful to the group to make sure everybody looks pretty and a photo. But I'll send it to the group, you get a consensus. But to your point, also like,

I don't care about anyone else's group photos. Like you're saying, like, I'm scrolling past so quick. I don't give a fuck, but here I am posting them. Like, people should care about mine. Well, I just want people to know. But I have a lot of friends. That's the only reason. I don't want you to even look at it.

I don't care if you even look at me in the photo. I just want you to look at the feed and be like, she has a lot of friends. It's important to me. It paints a picture of who I am. You sound like you're overcompensating. You have plenty of friends. I want people to know.

That was the name of the game with Facebook albums. Like Facebook, when they first came out, the goal was, look at how much fun I'm having. And I'm living the dream. And it was mostly like so your high school ex or your ex best friends knew that like your collegiate experience was like thriving. But you're right. Because if I post a solo photo,

I will get so many. likes and comments, but group photos, nobody cares. Unless Ashley's in it and me and Ashley, if it's me and you, yeah. Literally zero likes. It's going to be awkward when our group photo doesn't perform well. Okay, so why did you write this book? Yeah, I think I'm a podcaster. I have a podcast. Be there in five. I've been doing it for

six years. And what I've noticed throughout the past six years is that there's like a really common thread of like a lot of women my age that want to feel seen in the things they like and celebrated in their hobbies, interests, even in their nostalgia, but there's like a tendency to kind of minimize or dismiss when you like stuff if it's basic, common, popular, or like mainstream. And I kind of noticed through having more nostalgic podcast episodes that like people love to reclaim certain experiences of girlhood that at the time they felt like they kind of had to minimize or that they were made to feel aren't important. But when I look back on my life, I'm like, I, you know, yes, education's important, but like my

entire ability to wordsmith was developed on AOL Insta Messenger. I almost lost my religion because of an in-sync song. I, you know, when I think about the most formative days of my teenage life, it's not my high school graduation. It's like when I spent my whole paycheck on a Vera Bradley back. And for better or worse, I am that person. I'm kind of shallow, but these brands and these products and these icons like mean something bigger than meets the eye.

And I think that on the heels of being ridiculed, you know, it's like in the early 2010s we were made fun of for being basic, but we were a bunch of millennials that had to fit in in all costs. Of course, I have a North Face Denali and Oggs. like that was the currency. And then further in the 2010s, it was like everything was talking shit about millennials. And it was about how we killed off all these major.

Do you guys remember that phase where it was like they killed things like paper napkins or diamonds, but then like also the American dream. And it was just kind of clickbait. And then further we got in, it was like, Gen Z was making fun of skinny jeans. And it's just like, okay, I feel like we're kind of this comedic press punching bag. Meanwhile, none of us identify with any of those tropes. What was like our life in girlhood and what is our nose? installed are really about. So I kind of wanted to argue for like the great depths that can be found in

shallow experiences while showcasing that millennials lives are about a lot more than us being like entitled or lazy or killing off something. Like we're just a product of our time. Leave us alone. Totally. And I remember my mom talking about like the new millennials in the office now fucking lazy and entitled people. We are the first generation that emails on our phone and we're available 24 hours a day, seven days a week. There's no such thing as a vacation. My mom got to take vacations. would take vacations when I worked a nine to five or somebody else. And I'm sitting on the beach on a Tuesday working. There is no breaks ever. I've never understood this lazy entitled millennial thing. It's just like we're the hustle culture. It's like it's also ass backwards. It's like whatever. And we all are products or environment grew up in a certain way. But I also, I feel so lucky about when we grew up. Like I feel like we hit the jackpot. I got to have a childhood that was disconnected, a adolescence that was pre-social media. I graduated before school shootings were prevalent and we were kind of oblivious to the really bad stuff in the world. And I mean, even just before 9-11, it just felt like a lighter time,

you know, or we just weren't aware of it. And I think that I was molded in that way. And you shine a lot of light on, you know, the stuff that shaped our body image or just all the consumerism that was shoved down our throat and that girls were only supposed to care about like boys in clothes and shopping and being skinny. And, you know, then I was like, yeah, that wasn't great. But At the end of the day, I'm like, I don't know what's worse, you know, because I think that Gen Z has had this luxury of growing up with a lot more body positivity and acceptance and seeing people that are more representative and inclusive, but they've had to grow up with social media and I don't wish that anyway. Like, I feel so lucky. Like, I think it would have fucked me up. Yeah. I was already fucked up. I hated my body. I hated the way I looked. I thought about it constantly at a loop in my head. I don't, I don't even know how it had survived with like a constant 24 hour loop of like everybody is more. beautiful than you thinner. Everybody's using filters and Botox and hair extensions. I don't know how I would have survived.

I already hated myself so much. You know? Yeah. And I want to, like, we have so many questions for you. And this last thing I wanted to say is like to your point of like making fun of millennials like skinny jeans and this and that.

And listen, I don't wear skinny jeans. But I think it's so funny to like make fun of millennials for dressing like a millennial. Like I'm like, what do you have? What do you want? Do you want to dress like a teenager? You're like, listen, I want to be on trend.

Like I want to be fashionable. I want to pay attention. Like, but if you were calling me a millennial or Chuggy, I'm sure I do some of that stuff. It's like, but that's what I am. It's very funny to make insult someone and you're like, but that's, I am a male. It's worse to try to be like you. I'm not 22 out of the body of 22 years. I'm all for like the younger people creating the trends. Like I want to be clear. Like younger people have always been on the forefront of trends and like children of the future. Yeah, exactly. But when it gets down to it, it's like sometimes we are going to dress and act our age. Yeah, they can have it. The stuff of their age.

kind of the point is like millennial's not a derogatory term. I don't think so at all. I'm like you're jealous. It's kind of like about an ownership of a lot like all things that are millennial. It's like, yep, that's me. I'm one of these. Thank you. We're the first generation that has been like made fun of on the internet for stuff we also did on the internet. Like we were the first people to put our stamp on the internet and now you have a record of it. You can go back and make fun of me about publicly. Like my mom, I guess you could make fun of my parents for being boomers, but like they're not aware of it. They're on Facebook posting, whatever they did that afternoon. I know.

Or their political affiliations, but, like, they don't know they're being made fun of by us. And then poor Gen X, like, they're not even in the Zite guys. Nobody even cares about them. Gen X, like, good for them. They got it easy. Gen X, they're such an interesting generation, like, marked by their independence. They're, like, latchkey kids. They have a whole story to tell it in a book I would love to read.

But the, like, social, cultural and political and economic forces that happen when you come of age, define your generation. Ours just happens to be fine by, like, really seismic things. Like, the Internet, like, the greatest recession since the Great Depression, there are really big factors that define us. But yeah, to your point, like the biggest one is having a childhood that's disconnected and an adulthood that's hyper-connected. And it's not that we're better or worse off.

It's more like, I think we're just always trying to like adjust. Because I agree that growing up with social media from day one would be nightmarish. But I almost think there's something funny about millennials where like, okay, even if the kids today grow up in a body positive world or like a more politically correct one, is that what's actually happening behind close door? like hard to say. But with us, we like lived in kind of this like problematic zeitgeist and then one day woke up and we're supposed to love ourselves. I think that's what Raina said earlier. I was thinking all the time. I was told my entire life to hate myself and one day we're like,

we're not doing that anymore. And I was just supposed to agree. Right. And I think that's great. I think there should be representation of every type of body in the world. But like I was told to hate it, to hate everything about myself. And now we're like we're not doing that anymore. And that wasn't a choice by the way. You were like indoctrinated. Like if there was a cultural conditioning happening where to me it's like a shake for breakfast, a shake for lunch and a sensible dinner is like stop, drop and roll levels of like a thing I heard so much. I remember it off the top of my head. Like diet culture was such a big deal. And I just don't think we should be blamed for not being able to shed ourselves of those internalized things that were pushed down our throats

when we were young. Yeah. This quote that said there was something unique about the 2000s that exacerbated circumstances involving self-esteem. It was an era of harsh beauty and body standards, it's minimal mental health conversations and maximum online performance we were very new to be on the receiving end of. We weren't ready for it. Gen Z's, they've at least prepared.

Yeah. For the feedback and for like all of the, you know, ever-changing. Sure. I don't have any other generation. I'm happy about we are

and I don't think it's easy to be Gen Z. And I think that there's a huge rise of obviously online bullying. I think it's really hard. I think that there's explosions of anxiety and stress. And I think that porn culture at school, like don't get me started.

And I think that pornography has exploded upon society in a terrible way also. And it has made boys think a certain way about sex and women's bodies in a way that also boys weren't exposed to as much when we were growing up. So yeah, I don't think it's easy being that generation. But I like the discussion of mental health conversations because there just was none of that growing up. I mean, I even say like when my fiance left me, I was 28 and I had no one to talk to about this. There was no podcasts about everybody's breakups and engagements ending. I'd never heard of such a thing in my entire life. I was 28.

So I think it's really nice that there's all this today. Well, the whole kind of thesis of the book is the dichotomy of like celebrating the things I grew up loving and, you know, criticizing how they shaped my worldview, which in part of the chapter about the 2000s called Are We Going Out or Out Out Out? It's about like it's kind of trying to capture that like there was so many things that made us vulnerable during that time that I look back on like the all female pregame is this bonding ritual where we like really built each other up. and it was so important to me. Like when girls were like, you look so hot, so cute, such a fun top. Like, it bothers me that people make fun of how women greet each other, because I think that's one of the most charming things about us is wanting each other to feel good. The flip side of that, as everything has one, is like, you notice when you get feedback.

And I noticed when I get positive feedback was when I was like, blonder tanner, had lost weight, talked less. Like, it was kind of all these things that went against my instincts. And now I look back, I'm like, well, it is kind of interesting because I feel guilty for perpetuating these horrible, you know, beauty and body standards, but I think my proximity to them made me chase them endlessly. Like, I noticed I could get more attention if I did this or I put sun in in my hair or if I lost weight or whatever. And like, it's kind of sad now that I think about it because I was just so, maybe I'm shallow or maybe it's part of like growing into womanhood is like,

there is a moment where you kind of like, I like to say stop looking at windows and start staring into mirrors. And then you look back on that time and you're like, there's a lot of people that needed to be seen and that were way worse off than me. But I was so obsessed with validation of my appearance. Like, I tried to think about the source of that, but I think it was commenting on each other's appearance. I think it was how boys responded to you. And I think it was seeing tabloids. And to quote my friend Nora McEnnerney, that would put women on the cover saying somebody was scary, skinny, but then they'd also win who wore it best. Totally. And it was confusing messaging. It was all confusing messaging. I mean, listen, you wrote this in the book. I don't know how you phrased

it. You speak so much better than I ever could. But, I think if you're like, I don't know if I'm a bad feminist or what, but do we really have to stop commenting on people's appearances? Like, positively. Like, positive. No one should be commenting negatively on people's appearances. Women, men, whatever. But give me compliments.

What are we doing here? Like, I would die if people just stopped telling me I looked good. Like, not like just friends and Instagram comments. Like, isn't that what we're doing? Like, aren't rain and I, like, doing our hair and makeup? And like, are I working out so hard for people to notice? Like, I'm doing it for myself, but. Totally.

I feel like we've over corrected on this. We've over corrected on women's appearances. When people say you should only tell young women if they're smart or capable, I'm like, well, that's condescending. I know I'm smart and I know I'm capable. Tell me I'm pretty. You know? I think we've overcorrected and I think that it's not our fault why we might not always think we are. So for the love of God, remind me now and again. Again, negative, what are you doing? I just want to be clear. It's like, no, you should never be commenting on women's bodies negatively or positive reality. And if you want to tell me, that I look smart. That's fine too. I understand the flip side of it. I understand someone who could be struggling and, you know, there's comments. or they are struggling and it's like, oh, you're so skinny.

And so it's being reinforced and maybe they have disordered eating. Like, I want to recognize that. But for me personally, keep them coming. Right. It's like, we don't have to comment on like the specifics, the size or the difference from the last time you saw them. I just think it's like nice to tell somebody they look great. They look beautiful.

They have such a fun top. Whatever. It's like, it's something that I think it's fun that we do. And I just like that about us. And when people label it as fake, I'm like, it's actually not because nobody knows more than we do, how the world works over time to make you feel depleted. And if we try to inflate each other's spirits upon greeting, like, what's it hurting? Right. I'm not all the time. So can we talk about the millennial paradox? Yeah. We can read your quote back to you, but I'm sure you just like have it

unlock. But the thing that we both wrote down was, I think you said like in conversations of picking people's brains, which is one of those terms, I've discovered that members of my generation want to seize the opportunity to pursue passion over predictable profession, but are torn between the traditional values they held growing up versus the modern opportunities that greeted them once they did. To me, this is the nucleus of the millennial paradox. Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm not like a PhD. I'm, I'm using for entertainment here. But this is kind of how I think about my career. And I'm sure you guys can relate because we all have internet jobs. But like half my career is very corporate. And half of it is very modern. And this job didn't exist when I was like building my dreams. And

I think a lot of people relate to like, okay, so I plan my life out without a lot of information and the information age happened. Therefore, there are a lot more opportunities. So per the pick your brain combos, I noticed when I start, like, was an entrepreneur, people would want to talk to me about like this elusive idea of passion, like this obsession with pursuing your passion that almost in the 2010s happened where it was like, I don't want to just work to work. Whereas prior generations, it was like company loyalty and totally. To be a company for as long as possible. And I'm going to company for as long as possible. But like one of the negative tropes about millennials is calling us like job hoppers or disloyal.

But if you entered the workforce in the most terrible recession since the Great Depression and a company's never been loyal to you, why would you be loyal to companies? Amen. So I think that us being job hoppers, it's kind of an example of like, where do these negative stereotypes come from? They're not necessarily negative. They're true. It's just how you interpret them.

So people job hop for good reason. Or if you call somebody lazy because they have work. life balance. Like, that's not necessarily bad. It's just a matter of perception. So anyway, I think the millennial paradox is interesting because, yeah, we grew up in a world that's very different now. And while that happens to most generations, I do think the internet and information and

the job opportunities democratized by the internet has made a lot of people wonder if them following the straight and narrow was a mistake and they could do something they're more passionate about. But I'd say, for me, the flip side of that is like, if you work in your passion, you're not as passionate about it. Like there's tradeoffs to everything, you know? Yeah. So yeah, it just, I think that we're, we are more dynamic than we get given credit for.

And there's a good reason why a lot of us are a bit like lost or confused or behind. Because if when you think about some careers, you have to plan that out starting when you're like a teenager. When you pick a major. And I just don't think any of us have any business picking long-term decisions like that when we're that young. Do you know how drunk I was in college? I would like see how many days we could go without taking a break. That person was making decisions for me. I would be like, it's been like 27 days.

And that person was big. The person I used to fuck my whole freshman year was named Trailer. I never even learned his real name. T-R-A-Y-L-O-R? Like Taylor and Tray? No, like the thing that you put in a like a trailer. Oh, okay. Like a park. Yes, like the park.

Oh, I see. And he wore a John Deer hat and his name was trailer and I don't really know his real name. And like that was my boyfriend and I would try to like drink as many days as possible. And that's who picked my major forever. Yeah. Right. That's crazy. The pressure we put on young people to make life law, I mean, thinking about going into medicine, going into law, like the switching costs are high when you actually get into it and you don't want to do it anymore. And yeah, I mean, I hope trailers well. The one that got away. He looked him up lately. He was hot. I bet he was. He was like a big,

like Indiana dude. Oh. You were like a John Deere hat. It's like a big man. I can picture it. Yeah. I had a type early on. I think I just wanted to talk. Was he bald? He was probably bald dain. He was giving I'm gonna be bald. Male pattern, yes. And he had like all of skin and a big beard. He was big dude.

Okay, let's set him up. Yeah. I just wanted to talk about that because I just also want to validate the trailer specifically. I can't we just like a deep dive trailer? Wife messages up. Yes, he was like, she probably will. So this guy I fucked him in college also and his girlfriend messages.

And she was like, I'm so-and-so's girlfriend. And I was like, I took his virginity. You use actual names on here? I didn't. No, we don't. No. I don't even know why. she knew. He must have told her.

That's why she must have said, like, I like this podcast. Yeah, people have connected the dots. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But we, with the exception of trailers, you'd like to have some anonymity. Well, it's not as well name. Well, everybody knows so many people in the trailers. It might be. I don't think it's true. I don't know. No idea. There's one trailer. He's still in Indiana and they're going to find it. I hope they do. I hope his wife reaches out. And let us know if he's bald.

Coming on our carousel, no one else will. Yes. I know. Yeah, let's get it. We should get a group pick. If she comments. the bald guy emoji. I'll know. You'll know. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe you should put on a going out top and go find him. I just want to talk about the millennial paradox and you guys can read a lot more in the book, but just to give people permission to feel confused, you know, and just like, should I have gone down this road or, you know, we really are the, I mean, yes, people were following their dreams and passions and whatever, but we really were the first generation to really be fed that, you know, follow your passions. You'll never work a day in your life kind of. mindset and it's not for everybody, you know, and it's confusing. Well, some people need to have the real jobs, like regular jobs, you know? And also, like, I think you talk about this in the book that, like, we were told to go work

for ourselves, but there was no, like, archetype for that. Like, I didn't know anybody else that was, like, a social media influencer that had figured out how to make money. Like, I was at Amazon. I was going to leave my job to be a food influencer, and I didn't know how to do that. There was no, like, diagram for, like, do this thing. Then this thing will happen. Here's how you grow it.

Here's how you monetize it. here's how you know you're worth. Like, that didn't exist until we created it. But, like, it's been figured out as we've gone along. I mean, I still remember Brosme and Basic Days. Like, no one was, it was just a Wild West. There weren't even, like, contracts sometimes. Hell no.

Yeah. Get this money. It's like, where's the deliverables laid out? Is there a contract? That never existed. This is, you know, I think they were figuring out. Brands and agencies were figuring out as we were, too. So, anyway.

And you talk about this in the book a little bit. I want you to talk about your experience. But, like, I remember my mom used to say to me when I was in high school. Like, you used to have all these interests and hobbies. And I was like, don't tell people that. Like, that is so embarrassing to me. But, like, I used to, like, write poetry. I, like, submitted for competitions.

Same girl. She sent me a photo of a floppy desk the other day. And she was, like, not a hard disc. Oh, yeah. I used to, like, creative writing classes. Yes, I took creative writing classes. I went to, like, smart kids school. Right.

And I did pottery classes. I went to art classes at the museum. I just, I mean, I went to high school. And I was like, don't ever tell anybody about this. I don't remember ever having another hobby ever again. Right. I'm like, if you tell anyone I went to pottery class at the Dover Art Academy, I'll die. Wrote a poem?

Are you kidding me? My mom texted me later, she's like, I found this hard disc with your poems on it. Do you want it? I was like, don't ever tell anybody that that happened. I would like it. I'm going to look right to the camera. Markia. I need that poem.

I was so angsty. I thought I had the weight of the world on my shoulders. Raina, if you don't get me those poems. Not the poems. I wrote so many. We'll fire up the Patreon for this. I was so angsty, you guys. I really thought I had every problem on earth. And, like, my boyfriend was just, like, mean to me that week. Like, I was so downtrodden and I had no problems. But anyways, I don't remember having a single interest or an hobby in high school and college. I did not read books. I didn't go to seminars. It wasn't cool to have interests. And then, like, I remember we were hiring our original intern for Girls Gotting, her name is Leah. And she was, like, talking about our course load in college. And it was so many electives and so much. And so much. many interesting things. And I was like, I never would have deigned to do any of that. It wasn't cool. It wasn't popular to do it. Nobody around me was doing that. It just wasn't cool. I didn't develop

interest in hobbies until my mid-20s. Well, to the point in the book, our interest in hobbies were just supposed to be going to the mall and flirting with boys. Boys were my hobby. Girls got to do pottery. I can't believe you both. The hobbies you just listed off like they were normal, I'm like, I didn't do any of that. My mom was really big into putting me in that stuff. Our moms. That's amazing. Also, Matt was so good at pottery. They still have his pots around.

Oh, I have a lot of questions. I love that, though. And I think, I mean, that probably speaks to, like, how much mental and physical real estate we had growing up, like, without being iPad kids. Like, we had to do something. And if you couldn't play outside, like, you were sent to, like, day camps and stuff like that. But to your point about your poems, A, I do think we need to get our mitts on those. And, two, I think that that is the beauty of girlhood is that by design, you lack perspective. So your boyfriend was mean to you that week

and it was the worst thing that had happened to you. So therefore you wrote from that really pure place of not being like, it's not a big deal. I love that part of girlhood where you don't even have the wherewithal to dismiss yourself. It is just that intense. You have to got an AIM and post a really sad lyric.

Yes. Was your screen name about one of your hobbies? Were you like pottery girl, 6-9? It was blondey. Blondy 412. Because that's how I saw myself. I was just like, that's what I value is how I look. Yeah. What was yours?

I wish I could remember. these. I mean, eventually towards the end of the road, you know, like I was already in my early 20s, because we were still using it like then. Yeah. You know, the, what was the run? It's like 97 to 2009. Yeah. So when I, my, L and Samasdhasa. My final name was Ashelaia. It was just like, my mom would randomly call me that. But I don't remember the like, I don't know, little princess 48. I was hoping there was a flute related one that you just set fire to. Fuck the, that's the whole thing with the flute. I was like, this is for nerds. Like, do you remember? you're like young and you think something's cool genuinely, right? Before someone tells you it's not.

And then someone tells you it's not. And you're like, what? This thing that I'm good at and I really liked, like someone, one person just has to be like, that's for nerds. And you're like, I'll never do it again. Right. Like us, our generation. That may not be a nerd culture is great. I really cared about popularity and being liked. So for me personally, one person saying that thing was nerdy, I will quit it. Me too. And jokes on us. Because what could be cooler as an adult than having musical talent and being good at something. All I want is to...

Oh my God, a guy that can play the piano. Being a poet. You were talking about the flu. Look, Lizzo. I mean, like, people that have talent, like, it's genuinely cool. And I think that that's kind of like part of the reason I wrote the book to

was like, what about those of us that spent our adolescents chasing moving targets of trends, of beauty standards, of popularity, of things that have absolutely no sustainability, but like on an ongoing basis, we just like followed what was socially acceptable. Like, what about our stories? Because, like, this is not a book of greatness.

This is a book from a highly mediocre person that chased trendy stuff and never did anything unique in their life. And, like, that's okay. We don't think that about you. This is the best written book on mall culture. Literally. Oh, my gosh. Thank you. I really feel passionately about the mall. I asked Kate if I could go on her podcast and we're just going to talk about malls the whole time. Like, nothing speaks to my soul more. Like, did you know that nostalgia used to be a mental illness? I did. I did. 17th to 19th century. I have that mental illness. Like my level of nostalgia is like in my body, like for the music and for the TV shows and the movies and the malls. Like I feel it so deeply.

So this is why this speaks to me. Because you have every obscure reference to like, you know, the mainstream, from the mainstream to the obscure, you cover it all. Well, the first time like when actually was on my podcast last probably like five years ago, we talked a little bit about nostalgia. And she told me like very earnestly like, well, I got. like most of my tops at Arden B. I got butterflies. I was shook to my... I was like, what? Like, Arden B B B, to me is Couture.

Like, I didn't... If you knew somebody who shopped at Bibi... But I did, that's her part. Arden B, B, B, B. I think she got her, like, prom dresses at Cache, which is nuts to me. I got all my prom dresses at Cache. Of course I did. My whole wardrobe was not Arden B and B, but I had a few select statement pieces, obviously, some items. But I also shopped at like Deb and... Yeah, Rave and whatever it was.

I actually bypass limited to completely. They were like, she's an adult size. You went straight to the limited? I was straight to limited. Newark and company. Oh, yeah, obviously. As a child, I was just in a blazer and a pencil skirt. But I did pride myself on my fashion.

I was just like, I remember I had a pair of knockoff burberry print pants from Beebe, and they were $98. And I was like, and I bought it with like, you know, whatever money I was earning on like a summer job. Like that was a whole paycheck of the summer, obviously. I just would go to the mall and blow everything that I earned. but I was just like, I'm a fashion icon in the school. Well, it sounds like you were. Dressing like this.

Baby T-shirts. If there was a girl walking around, a baby across. That's the richest person. That's what I did. Like school. I should find first day of 11th grade. Me posing baby shirt.

Baby shirt. Baby pants. Stayed in front of my 93 Ultima. That's the stuff. I would go to school and tell everybody that I was shopping at cashier last night for my prom dress. Like, that was the hottest ticket in town. I only got my senior prom there.

The other was worth like Macy's, Strawbridgees, maybe one from Boscoves. That's a deep cut. Jessica McClintock Cor. My mom would be like your dad has to come because he's paying for this. You have to try on dresses

in front of your dad. Well, my mom was like, we're not paying for this. Your dad's paying. My parents were just so happy I had a date. We were really cutting it close. Like, my parents were just so happy

someone was taking me to the prom, I think, at that point. Like, they were just like, let her have it. But like, was that a memorable experience for you, like going to cachet and picking out a dress? So it's a long story. And we don't have to, I can come on your podcast and tell it. It's a scandal.

It's a scandal. Raina just heard this story. It involves the whole town. It's... Whoa. Kate, listen, I really... We don't have the time. We're going to dinner after this and we're going to tell the story.

It's a full-blown, my full town. It was a scandal. In the newspaper. In the newspaper. Did your town have one of those stores where you'd put your name in your dress so nobody could wear the same dress to the dance? You submitted to the school? Does it have to do with that?

No, no, it doesn't do with that. I don't, I'm not trying to blueball you guys, but it's a long story. I'm going to do an exclusive. I'm going to be there in five. Wow, wow, wow. On how I got the whole town riled up. I had basically two prom dresses and involves cachet. I got a lot of layers.

I'm so excited right now. I can't wait to hear it. I think you're just, you're throwing listeners to Kate's podcast. She's like, we're not going to do it on ours. Yeah, listen to mine. I'll share it on ours too. Okay.

So, yeah, I had to retrain myself to have an interest or a hobby when I was like 28. I had to like learn how to read books. But in shopping, gossiping, talking about boys, like, I guess that's kind of my point is like, I don't, think we knew better than to take on the things we were told were cool. And I also had fun doing them. Also, it brought me joy. Like, I remember feeling like I have to stamp out the poetry from my life. I just remember thinking, like, the poetry and the pottery doesn't serve me anymore. And we're going to pivot for a little bit. Yeah. I had such big boobs. I already stood out. So I just didn't need

to stick out, like, any more than I already did. And I do remember taking a lot of joy and, like, dressing like my friends and boys. And that was, that was fun for me. Did you like Bath and Body Works? I couldn't get enough of it. What was your favorite scent? The one that everybody loved. Cucumber melon? So country apple and sunridden raspberry were the top. There's another one.

Country apple, sunrary from raspberry, cucumber melon. Those were like the OG3. And then I do think they brought in Pariwryma. Frisia, sweet pea. Sweet pea was the scent of losing my virginity. Really? Yeah. The lotion or the body mist?

I would do the whole mist with the lotion. So you really had a whole vibe. Remember what was it, Gap Dream? Yes. And Victoria's Secret. very sexy and body by Victoria. Body by Victoria, I love. So the last thing kind of we want to talk to you about in the book

and then people should buy the book is religion and purity culture moldering your views on sexuality because this was probably hammered home to a lot of us growing up. Yeah, we want to talk about your experience, which I feel like is probably a lot of people's experience. Mine wasn't as extreme, not that yours was not extreme, but, you know, in terms of growing up in the church. Yeah, it's a chapter called God must have spent a little less time on me.

And it's about like purity culture, in a sense, if you participated in like 90s, 2000s youth groups, but also like how purity culture infiltrated the secular spaces with like abstinence-only sex education with the aggressiveness of dress codes and whatever. But yeah,

what's interesting is that like my family's not crazy religious. I wasn't forced into any of this. Like I got yanked into like these camps and youth groups under the guise of like good old fashioned teenage fun. Like I went to camp to water ski. And I liked church lock-ins because they were co-ed and you'd like go play laser tag. And in hindsight,

I'm like, this is kind of a sneaky form of evangelizing where you're brought in under good old fashion fun and then you're like cash getting your soul saved. And I think that it was interesting from me because at a formative age where you're learning about your sexuality to be told that like you are a temptress, you will make your Christian brother stumble, you're responsible for how men respond to you,

you need to cover up so they don't look paired with, you know, being in a school. Like one time I were a calenic top and we all know a calenic is not the sexiest choice. You call it across. Crum-catcher in the book. I did. Yeah, I did.

It is the crumb catcher of blouses. Which is the... I know. If I'm eating a Nature Valley bar, I want to calm... Oh, my God. They should sell those together. They really should. It was probably just from Express.

It was tasteful. It was tasteful. I got pulled out of class for cleavage. And like, when you really think about the concept of a young woman's education being compromised and she's taken out of class, just in case the male's education is interrupted by staring. It's pretty upsetting. And this was just kind of par for the course. So I was nervous to put this chapter in because it kind of starts wistful and it's like sleepovers and aim and, you know, limited two. And then it's like hard left. Let's talk about religious drama. But I do think

that there's something particularly pervasive about this type of conversation in the 90s, even in pop culture, we obsessed over like girls virginities, which is really weird. Right. Purity rings with Disney Channel stars. But the point is, I, I think that there are a lot of people who, even if you weren't super religious, you had touch points with these sorts of spaces. And in my experience, they would do exercises where you would stand in a group and then you would chew gum. And then, you know, youth leader would ask you to pass on your chew gum and ask the next person to chew it. And you'd be like, ew, no, I'm not going to chew, chew gum. They'd be like, well, that's how your husband's going to feel if you've had sex before you're married.

Or they would put tape on a guy's arm, take the tape off, put it on the next guy's arm, and it wouldn't stick. And they'd be like, well, that's what happens. If you have sex before you're married, you're losing your ability to bond with your husband. Once the bonding agent is gone, it's gone. And there's a sector of young women that were very manipulated to believe our self-worth was in our purity and in our virginity. And it was really confusing for me to get out of that space, go to college. Hookup culture was thriving. Right.

And it's like this other one world told me my values in what I withhold from men. This world is what I give to them. And where does that leave me to safely. participate in sexual activities when I really just equipped to like not get TSS from tampons and like, you know, wear a condom. Like I guess like I just, there wasn't a lot of dialogue about like hooking up and the spaces in between. It was like virginity or bust. And I just felt very unequipped to like, yeah, be in the hookup world once I got there. Well, you wrote this line in many ways I feel robbed with the opportunity to nurture my own instincts prior to the interception

of religious moralism by a handful of random adults who weren't even my parents or trusted mentors. And that goes back to this kind of youth group leader who was probably fucking 19 or whatever the fuck. But I also just for people listening who we respect religions of all kinds. As long as you don't push your beliefs and others and judge them for it and use it to, you know, further a political agenda. But you really do also start the chapter with that of like, it's not about the religion. Like, it's about like the agenda and like what they were, you know, covertly doing. Because I think there's like a lot of power and community and we grew up and like going to church and things like that. But it was just like you got in it and it shaped you in a way.

And I think the most insidious part of some of these spaces, they look so well-meaning. And yeah, it's nothing to do with the faith itself or the love and light parts. It's the abuse of power of when you're talking to a bunch of young people and you allegedly have the key to their salvation. Like, yeah, it's going to stick with me that you're telling me my sister is drinking and she's going to hell in a handbasket. I'm like, then I don't understand. I'm so worried about my sister. I'm so, I just think like when you're holding something as serious as your eternity

over young people's heads and kind of manipulating them to believe things in your favor, it's a bit weird. But not everybody does that. It's just there's some spaces where like it's almost like if you can get in early enough and they can evangelize a certain way, it really does indoctrinate you to feel a certain way about yourself and your body and your autonomy. And my point of that chapter is into dog religion. Yeah, that's why I want to make the point.

I'm very respectful of like the spiritual positive elements, but that like there's just so much space for manipulating people in the wrong ways if you're not careful. And I think that the sad part is is that people are perpetrators and victims. And a lot of the youth group leaders, I'm sure, grew up that way. Then they passed it along and they didn't know better. And I have a lot of empathy for that too. But I just, yeah, I wanted to talk about it in case there are people, you know, I have friends that went to, I went to camp with who couldn't have cared less. and I have friends who are still in therapy who are happily married because of how purity culture infiltrates their marriage.

And I think everyone internalizes stuff differently. And I think if your point of entry to sex is it's bad, it's dirty, it's this, that, of the other. It's a bit hard to shake. A hundred percent. I mean, that wasn't my experience. You know, thank God and obviously not Raina's, but we have had to understand that there are so many people out there and also our listeners that cannot relate at all.

You know, like we are constantly surrounded with, A, women are older. They're our age group. And I'm sure some of them still hold some of that trauma. But we'll get messages and we're like, God, we got to remember sometimes that there are these young women who have grown up to think sex is bad and it's dirty and oh my God, they can't believe we're talking about masturbation. And, you know, I just forget sometimes because I'm A, so far removed from the age. But B, that just wasn't my experience.

And like, we feel for them so much and like I feel so honored to even be able to help at all. Yeah. Normalize certain things. And I'm a little quiet during this. conversation because that wasn't my experience. I'm really lucky. My mom gave me like your body yourself when I was 10. Sex was normal, healthy, beautiful. I went to Jewish summer camp. All we did was hang out. I gave so many hand jobs. Like it was really like I had Jewish. That hits different. The camps are different.

I just, we water ski and I gave. We water ski. There was a ropes course. I gave so many hand jobs. I went to camp to get summer hand jobs. Just a night like we would just like, you know, we'd like sneak out to the water skiing course and jerk each other off. No, I mean, I really learned about. sexuality in summer camp in like a really good way. I mean, these kids were so sexually charged. And I do think, I can't speak to everybody's Jewish experience, but I do think Judaism champion sex is a beautiful thing, a positive thing. I've had a ton of people right in who went to Jewish summer camps echoing the same thing.

That it was a way more relationship positive, relations, positive experience than it was like a shamy one. Yes. And of course, that's not everybody's experience with Judaism. I'm a pretty moderate Jew. I was moderate to reform. But like, yeah, sex was a positive thing. it was championed. It was a great thing. You weren't supposed to having sex at camp. I was like 14. But that's all the Hs. The OTPHs. I mean, I was just like sneaking out from 10 to 10 jerking guys off.

But to your point, like I do forget sometimes that that really, really is not other people's experience. And I have a lot of empathy for it because I've like, what an honor to grow up thinking that like your body is beautiful. Sex is beautiful. And you should explore those things because so many people didn't get that. And we'll be in therapy forever for the rest of life because of it. Right. I like that you said that. that there's like a complete spectrum. Some people just like didn't shake them and other people are like, how am I ever supposed to shake this?

This is my intro into sex. Right. And it's so much less about like what you were taught and more so about like how you internalized it, I think. Because then people invalidate your experience if like you took something from it, others didn't.

And I think I told you both before. Like that's why your show is so important. Like I think that there are more people than you probably realize who listen because they don't have a lot of permission to have that dialogue and safe spaces in the place they're at. And it's really great to hear other women confidently speak about sex and sexuality

in such an unabashed way that you forget that people don't. Absolutely. And that's important. And I appreciate you guys for that because I still can't. I just want to say, like, I'm going to wrap up with the conversation of being raised in this purity culture and every adult around you. And then you get to adulthood and the boys were also raised with that. And so you're an adult and the men that you're dating were also raised like that

and shame you for how you talk about sex. And I understand that like not only can you talk to your friends, about it. You can talk to your partner because you're getting it in an adulthood too. And we just try to be like really just create like a honest open space where like we can acknowledge people where we're raised like that. And now we're being met by men in romantic relationships

that are also shaming you and say we don't talk about that. That's not how I was raised. Why are you doing this so much? You know? Oh yeah. Well, I'm going to ask you a personal question you can answer or not. I mean, how was your husband raised? Was he raised in Christianity or Catholic or any sort of... He was raised Catholic but he's not like... super religious. We're like pretty on the same page with most things. And meeting him was such a

transformational experience for me because he was the first person I dated that was a true stranger. And it was very empowering for me, as weird as that sounds, because if you go to college in state where a lot of my friends went, and then I was in a sorority and like you almost have these reference groups that follow you and almost define who you are, even if you kind of want to evolve. And I almost felt like I had troubled dating people in that circle and I got friends owned a lot and like I was this one person in the context I had grown up in. And then when I moved to New York and met my husband, it was kind of like a clean slate in a way that empowered me to not feel so held back by a lot of the stuff I had grown up with. And I just felt like very accepted and loved by him without any

pretense. And yeah, so he doesn't really have any of the hangups I do whatsoever. Catholicism is less invasive in my experience because my mom's Catholic. And It's just not like my friends that grew up Catholic didn't grow up like with the weird virginity metaphors about chewed gum. Like it's just a little different. What a good balance you guys are. And like every religion there's such a spectrum because I know like crazy Catholic conservative, you know, type people at the same that like when we were talking about Jewish matchmaking. Like there's a really far into that spectrum where you don't even touch to your wedding day kind of shit. You know, so I feel like there's just always kind of, you know, I told you that shocked me because I don't know those type of Jewish people that are like crazy conservative.

Yeah. Well, they don't call themselves conservative. They call themselves orthodox or Lubbubbubich. but yeah, you don't touch. And that's a totally different sect of Judaism. A lot of them have arranged marriages. You're married at 18. You have a baby when you're 19.

You're shave your head. You get married quick. Internet. I should have napped a husband when I was 18. Trailer. Trailer. It could have been trailer. And you brought up your college experience.

And I just want to say that I really appreciate... You basically talk about how college wasn't the greatest time of your life. And I was reading another book recently where she was like, college was a disaster. But like, my girlfriends are the best thing that came out of it. And, like, you're still friends with them today. and you really do talk about the importance of female friendship. And so we love that common theme, obviously, on this show too. But I like that you're saying it.

You're like, a lot of this was shitty. And, you know, you said you felt even when people say that, it makes you feel some sort of way that this was supposed to be the greatest years of your lives. No, I remember alumni coming back for homecoming and being like, never graduate. The real world's off. And I was like, oh, this is already pretty bad. So I don't, like, what the hell is out there for me? But like, everyone's different.

And I didn't, back then, I didn't even understand the difference between introversion and extroversion. Like, I thought something was pathologically wrong with me because I didn't find, like, frat parties fun, but like, I don't get energy from big, loud groups and parties, but I didn't know that that was okay. Well, I would say I was, like, I was like old when I was 19 and I never, I never wanted to get like so fucked up and stay out so late. And it was like two o'clock in the morning, it was so drunk. And I just, I wanted to go home so bad at midnight I wanted to go home. And like, I just thought there was something like really uncool about me because that now I can't stay at enough. I can't wait to leave a party. Yeah. Go home and write your

poems. Yeah. I did want to go home right those poems to tend to. So many words to rhyme. Yeah. But I think that's like shows your complex, dynamic, interior girl world and how even if you had the optics of abandoning it for a while, you like didn't. You know, you're still that that same person with that same amount of depth. You just kind of pivoted where your attention went. And I like that also you made the point that like it did make you happy. It made me happy. I liked fitting in. I liked being a group of girls. I liked being popular. Like the boys liked me. I liked those things. I found value in it. That was fun for me. You had a great time. I think we all. three have not the exact same college experience, but this little piece of like that was not the

best time. Like I felt a little out of place. Raina and I had a similar experience of just where we chose to go. We felt a little out of place. And my girlfriends are the best thing that came out of it. And, you know, we're still all friends today. And you say the same. And Raina too. And it's just like, but the rest of it, it's like a lot of weird weight and body image stuff. Just the yo-yoing was like crazy. And like I didn't really feel like boys were that into me. And I was like sleeping around. and for validation. It's just, it was kind of a hot mess, and I wouldn't ever do that again. You know, like that was not the greatest time of my life. And like, if that was someone who's listening to your experience, that's great too. But I like talking about how it's like, okay, that that wasn't so awesome.

It was fine, you know? Yeah. I just didn't like the stuff that everybody liked as much. And I felt like I was forced into doing it. I saw a good time and we had a gun to my hell, but I slept around a lot. You can have good times in your life. And it's just didn't have good times in your life. not be like the time of your life. Sure. And I think that like you people can feel a bit gaslit by those types of statements where it's like everyone else having the time of your life and like you're not and you feel like you're crazy. Yeah. It's like I think the thing I learned is like your time's coming.

Like I loved the real world. I loved like having a salary and a job and moving to the city. But some people love the untethered vibe of college. Like everyone's different. I think part of that like fitting in at all cost thing is it just doesn't leave a lot of space for you to be like, well, I'm different and I like different things and that's okay too. you just are kind of like, well, I don't like what everyone else like, so I must be wrong. Yeah, I think I like both of these things. It's like, I don't like what everyone else like, so I must be wrong. Or I only like stuff that every, what else likes, I must not be complex

or dynamic or have any depth. Never should a chance. Neither of these things are true. Yeah. So like what you like and lean into it and write poetry. Yeah. Write your poems. That's kind of my ultimate conclusion is like, make your mix CDs. I spend a lifetime just trying. to be liked and in doing so pushed down a lot of the things that I loved. So like my goal for the book and for my podcast and any of it is just like, let's focus a lot more on the things that we love than focus on being liked. Yeah.

So anyways, Kate, the book is fantastic. The way you write is amazing. Your podcast is unbelievable. We just really love everything that you produce. So guys, check it out. Where can everybody find you? Everybody can find me and Ashley's breaking story about the scandal that ravaged whatever Delaware town you grew up in.

Be Therein Five Podcasts at Kate Kennedy on Instagram. The book is One in a Millennial. It comes out January 23rd and come see me on tour to talk about more of this stuff. When's a tour start? The 24th. Yeah, the day after the book comes out. Okay, so they can check your website for dates and everything. Yes.

Amazing. And we have been to a show that you did before and it was incredible. It blew us away. So I don't know exactly what you guys are in for, but we can't recommend it enough. Truly. So much work and energy goes into these. And if you love the book, you will love the show. I am certain of it or your money back.

From Kate. Not us. From Beth. I do not agree to that in advance. You know you know. I was going to offer, but you know what? You could memo request to Ashley. Yeah.

Can you imagine? Someone's like I hated the show. I'm like, oh. I've beenmoed somebody for my own show before. Really? We need to get into it. Okay. We'll talk about it over margaritas.

Okay. And you guys can find us at girls got to eat.com. Girls' Gotty podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Hess. Rain is Rayan.org. Of course, our company Vibes only. Vives only.com, vibes only on Instagram. Subscribe on YouTube, share this episode with a friend. Get Kate's book. And we'll see you next week. Have a good week, guys. Bye.