Girls Gotta Eat - This Relationship Knowledge Will Make You a Better Partner feat. Esther Perel

Episode Date: July 10, 2023

We are so honored to welcome back renowned psychotherapist and bestselling author Esther Perel to discuss a variety of topics for both people in relationships and those looking for love. She speaks on the challenge of meeting people today and gives advice for how single people can reframe dating (especially first dates). Moving onto relationships, we discuss how in every relationship someone needs more security and someone needs more freedom, how reactions in relationships are like a figure 8 and how to manage conflicts better, the theory of fundamental attribution error and thinking we are more complex than our partners, when we are most attracted to our partners and why, and the four things you can do in a relationship to keep the desire thriving. Before Esther joins us, we talk about guys having bad fashion on vacations, Rayna's surgery, Ashley's pregnancy prevention, and the stark difference in how we do laundry. We also answer a listener's email about meeting a great guy right before moving and what she should do. Enjoy! Follow Esther on Instagram @estherperelofficial, check out her podcast Where Should We Begin?, and visit her website for more. Follow us @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit our website for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Shop Vibes Only. Thank you to our partners this week: Hello Fresh: Get 50% off plus free shipping at hellofresh.com/gge50 and use code GGE50. Buffy: Get $20 off your order at buffy.co and enter promo code GGE. ZocDoc: Go to zocdoc.com/gge and download the Zocdoc app to sign-up for free and book a top-rated doctor. Nutrafol: Get $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping at nutrafol.com when you use promo code GGE. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When they don't need me, I can want them. Because when they need me, I can be loving and caring, but I am not in the realm of desire and the erotic. Up girls got to eat. Welcome back. It's your birthday week. It's my birthday. Well, we're recording prior to my birthday in advance.

But happy July. This is the first episode of July. Best month of the year. Cancer season. Three of the four Hustle Times birthdays. Yes. Cancer season. The whole family.

Yes. So anyway, happy July. Hope you guys all had a great Ashley's birthday. And the fourth and all the things. And half of you are probably jet-setting this month like everyone else. I hope you didn't miss us last week. We missed you. But we're coming back strong. It is Esther Porell Day. I just felt like we need it. We need all the things.

It sounds like a little tugboat. We really just had the best interview with her. So excited for you guys to hear it. She's just, it's my number one guest in the world. The person I care about the most. Are you going to cry now? No.

Your eyes are glassy? She's so powerful. Are you just in pain? No, I'm not in pain. I'm all good. I'm doing good. I also have new titty. It's new titty July.

We love to see it. So I have new boobs. You have a new nail color. I've been meaning to talk about this. Oh, yeah? Yeah. You went back to red. We talked about red being this, like, very classic color.

So I think I'm sticking with green for the summer for a bit, but you are switching it up. So red, I was already thinking about it. And I did get a request on the request line. Can you say this? This is funny. Can we talk about it? I, well, you said I got a request, and I was like, obviously, it's his butthole that your figure is going to be in. That was my first thought.

We've already said we're not putting these in. But Emily Moore said you could just glove it. No, she did it. She said you have to put cotton under it and then put a glove on it. That is so extreme. We started in the gutter. That's where I started. First of all, I want to show out to my nail tech, Julietta, because this color is a

combination of two other reds. So I go to this place and they just have like all the colors and the color wheel thing. And I just wanted red, but I couldn't find the perfect red. And I was just like staring at it. She was taking off my previous extensions. Like, what am I going to do? I don't feel any of these. I don't feel them in my soul.

I know. And then she took off her gloves to like get restarted. And I was like, what is that red? What is on you, Julietta? And she was like, I combined two colors. I did one coat of one and one code to the other. And I was like, that's it. That's the red.

And she was like, it's very reminiscent of OPI's big apple red. And then the two colors that we combined, one is called iconic and one is called Diva. So this is iconic diva. I love it. But I was thinking about going back to red because these would have been my birthday nails. And then I told the person that I'm seeing, like, I'm getting my nails. He was like, what are you up to today? Yada yada.

I was like nails. And he said, can I weigh in? I was like, okay, sure. Like curious what he was going to say, even though we know all guys like red nails, even if they don't know why they do. So we're both like typing. He was like, can I weigh in? I said yes. At the same time, we both send each other a text.

And mine says, because they'll be digging. into your back. And his says, because I'll be holding your hand. Different vibes. You're like, I'm going to tell him what a slut I am. And he's like, I'm going to treat her like a lady. He's being sexy. I know.

I really like what you said. Thank you. I loved it. And so I was like, you know, for me, I'm like, I never do something that I don't really like or something that goes against my boundaries. Your morals. Or my morals. I'm not doing blue for somebody.

But I'm like, if you're dating, it's like to know what they find. find attractive because you want that in reverse. Like, he asked me, I'm going to go get another tattoo, where should I get it? And I've weighed in. You know, I'm like, well, I'm the one seeing you naked. Yeah. Of course. There's no point to be kind of like, you don't get to tell me what to do.

Like, I'm always like, tell me what you find sexy. I'll do it to an extent. Well, this is the advice I've always given. Like, when you talk about, like, can I change my man's style? It's like, are you flexible in other ways. So the ways I've tried to be flexible is like, yeah, you can pick like what nail color I'm to do. Or I'll say, like, do you like option A or B of what I'm wearing. Like, I will be a little

flexible, give you option so that I can tell you what you're going to do. I'm only doing this so I can tell you what to do. And your partner should know if something they're doing gives you the ick. Yeah. Blue nails. Well, he did a thing that gave me the ick, I told him. I said, don't wear that. I don't care. Do you want me

to be dried up? There was this guy that I like. And there was his post of him wearing this shirt. And I was like, I was going to forward it to you. And then I was like, I'm just not going to acknowledge it. I'm going to pretend this didn't happen. And then you forwarded it to me and you're like, if you guys go on trips together, you have to change his wardrobe.

Well, yeah. So it was like, that's when he wears to travel. And so bad. That's his, I'm visiting a new European city. That's the shirt he put on in the morning. And you know, it's his best shirt. That's his favorite shirt. You know what?

Let's fucking go. Let's talk about this. Some of the stuff that guys wear to travel is not okay. Like, that's when we pack our best things. We have every look. If we're going on out of the country, Mexico, European vacation, whatever. Like, Jenny is already packing. We were six days out from leaving for my birthday.

Ashley, I was laying on my deathbed here after surgery. I placed like 20 orders online for the stuff I was going to wear weeks later in Mexico. Yes, and guys will wear a jersey. Like a soccer jersey. Guys will wear a jersey? If you are wearing a jersey in Europe. I just gagged. A soccer jersey.

Have you ever even played soccer? Do you even watch soccer? What are you doing? We are in Pasatano, sir. You are wearing a flip-flop and a jersey. And I have worn a beautiful linen dress from Reformation. Oh my gosh. Yes, exactly.

Like this outfit got planned two months to go right down to the sandal, right down to the jewelry, to the accessories, to the bag. I've been doing Instagram stories, this or that. I have been polling people on what I'm bringing on this trip. Right. Unbelievable. Yes, exactly. Honestly, I like packing for somebody because I can decide what you wear.

But I'm just like, we got to get ahead of it because you know, I'm packing last minute. And if we have to pack you two, we're not making the flight. I feel like I can pack somebody else quicker. I can like, I know exactly what you look good in. I'm just like, when I pack. That's so true. I will have a hysterical meltdown.

Takes me three hours and a whole bottle of wine. I'm crying by the end of it. I'm a hysterical packer. Well, the trips we've taken lately have been like trips that are like show dates and then a vacation and then family time and then New York. Press. Yes, it's been like totally chaotic. Like the last few times I've had to pack for a long.

trip. I've been like very stressed. Like Tessa came over. I was like, I hate her to see me like this. She came over once when I was so frantic. And then I got in the car. We had a car pick us up and I get it. I'm like, oh my God, I don't have my AirPods. I'd already put them through so much. We were already late. And I was like, now I have to move my car to my car. I was just so stressed. I mean, Tessa was calm. But she's probably like, she's my boss. She's got this. And I was like, narrator, she did not got this. So I'm like, we're probably going to miss this fucking flight. And so I'm in the car. I'm like, oh my God, I forgot my AirPods. Like we're leaving for 10 days. I have to have my AirPods. So I go back in the house and then I was like, they're not in here. They probably are in my purse. And so I just grabbed another pair of AirPods. I had another pair to like bring with me so I could like save face.

But I ended up telling Tesla like days later. I'm like, I just wanted to let you know that the AirPods were my purse. And I had to bring two pairs with me on this trip. So I brought two like just so I wouldn't look like an asshole to someone who works for us. And I still told her anyway. I do wonder what she says about us behind our backs. I don't want to know. Don't tell us. It's just like she's seen us in a lot of different scenarios, but you really don't want someone who works for you to see you at that much of a low. When you're running late, you're sweating, you're crazy. I was like, I meant to shower this point. I'm forgetting stuff. I'm like frantic. It's just not the vibe. Yeah. Well, she just watched you take my underwear out of my washing machine and put it in the dryer and

rose to every single thing you took out of the washing machine. Okay. So I had surgery a week ago, which we will talk about, but I can't really bend that well. And so I was like, which one of them is going to do it. I can get it into the wash machine. I can't get it out. Let's back up and talk about the depth of your washer. I mean, I don't buy it. How are you getting in there without me? I jump up on it. I bend into it and my whole body is inside of it as I'm fishing stuff out. I get a stomach cake. I have to like coach myself into this. It's so deep. Like a running start to get stuff out. So we all know I love laundry and I do laundry with the utmost care. So I can dry so much stuff. I would never put a pair of Lou Lemon pants in the dryer. Like I'm kind of psyched.

go about stuff. Probably your stuff holds up longer than mine. Yeah, I've been doing my laundry since I was eight, but like really taking care of everything. I'm kind of psychotic about it. So I came over and just started taking stuff out of the washer and there's like a full blown like silky corset. I was like, Raina, this goes in the dryer.

You know you would put it in the dryer if I wasn't here. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, totally. I was like, no, no, no, I hang dried. And then you don't have anything to hang dry on because you don't hang dry. So you threw it over a lawn chair. It is a bamboo lounger. Okay, sorry, you threw it up your lounge chair. It's just out there in the yard.

You literally were like, totally no, I will hang dry that. And then I pull your padded shorts out looking like a maxi pad attached to a pair of bike shorts. I'm like, what are these? Every pair of underwear goes in the dryer. Like, you're insane. And I know you're more normal than me. Like, I think most people just put everything in the dryer. I think I'm the one that's like got a drying rack and I do all this things.

I don't know. We'll do a pull. Are you more Raina's friend or Ashley's friend? Yes. This is so more Raines friend and more Ashley's friend. I mean, if something occurs to me, if I happen to catch it on the way out, I will lay it out. First of all, the fact that that corset was even in the washer on a regular cycle, you know that tag said handwash only.

You know it did. You know it did. I have the same one. You hand wash only. No fucks. But like, you're living more free than me. All I would say is nothing bad has really happened yet. Yeah, it's okay.

You can do whatever you want. I'm not going to get arrested. I don't really separate even that often. And truly nothing bad has happened. Exactly. Live your truth. So it's fine. I am recovering from my third breast surgery.

There is an exact inverse relationship to the number of breast surgeries you have and the amount of attention and sympathy you get. First breast reduction surgery. I had so many friends like set an alarm for 6 a.m. to like text me before the surgery to be like, Good luck. I hope you're okay. Like family members, everybody's like, I woke up to hundreds of text messages after that surgery. Second one, a lot of attention, but like less, but people were very concerned. This one, I got like a couple texts throughout the day. One of the people, this guy

texted me 6 o'clock in the morning before the first one. He sent me a meme like at 3 o'clock in the afternoon. I was like, you know, I just got a surgery. And he was like, this is your third one. It is true. Okay. And this actually tracks because you've been saying you've been getting more attention on this third one from your new L.A. friends. It's like, yeah, because this is the first. It's their first round. It's so true. Also, this reminds me of a bit Andrew Collin did the other night. We hosted our show with the improv and he does this bit how marathons are like weddings and also now like surgery. So like your first marathon that you run, everyone's like, oh my God, congrats. They like gas you up. Your second one, you're like, okay, that's pretty cool. This is that's pretty cool. This one you're like, we get it.

This type of all kids too. And he feels like this. Yes, weddings. I'm not giving you like a baby shower for the third one. You've done this. We've given you enough gifts. Use the gifts from number one and number two for number three. Well, I don't know if this is a controversial take, but if you get married a second time, I don't think you get to register. You're really going to ask for a gift from the same person that bought you a gift for the wedding that didn't work out? It also depends on what age you are. So people are going to be mad that I said this. I don't care.

Who cares? We don't care. Well, if you're going to ask from gifts for the same people that bought you gifts the first time, are you refunding them? Right. I've already gotten a gift. I got you a wedding gift. Yeah. I got your wedding gift already. I probably got you an engagement present and I probably want on your bachelor's at party. I mean, I've gotten you a bunch of gifts. I'm done. Me personally, as someone who hasn't had even one marriage, but I probably wouldn't ask for gifts for my second and third. I'm not asking gifts for a marriage. I'm not good. I feel like a certain age. I feel like at a certain age. Like I would not accept gifts at this age. I mean, listen, I'll accept gifts. Please. But like I've bought the nice luggage for myself at this point. I have serving platters. I have silver. I have silver. I have silver. I have silver. I have silver. I have silver. I have silver. I have silver. I have silver. I I have all the stuff you buy for people. Like, I don't need somebody to like spend their hard-earned cash on a kitchen aid stand mixer.

I have all the stuff now that I'm ever going to need. Totally. It's totally different when you're like more starting now. You don't have as much money and you're like, we need this shit. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm like cash only. Yeah.

You want to just throw me some cash. I'll take cash. Yeah. You can fund my next vacation. I'll take money. That's all I want. Like in Goodfellas, just hand me an envelope full of cash. But this experience was really so wonderful.

It is night and day compared to my last one. And like I actually think that I would have healed so much better after the second time. I can't stop thinking about it. Like I never would have gone through what I went through had the first experience been like the third experience. Like this doctor's office, this girl who works there, her name's Danny at Dr. Barrett, plastic surgery. She's just phenomenal.

She found us. She's the one that reached out. I just love her so much. And she's really been with me like every step of the way. And Dr. Barrett, the whole team's been so great. But they really like got on the phone with me and they were like, here's everything to eat and drink and avoid eating and drinking like leading up to it. here's some supplements you should take.

And right after, do XYZ for, do ice for two days afterward. It's like no fish oil, no garlic. Like they gave me this whole list. I felt really like taking care of. They prescribed antibiotics. They prescribed things for inflammation. There was so much care put into this. Everything that they recommended and I felt taking care of so well.

And the first and second time, it wasn't like I got no information, but kind of. It was just like, show up and do this thing and listen to your body. And in two weeks if you feel better, you start sleeping on your stomach and working out. I woke up the first two surgeries. The doctor wasn't there. This time I woke up. He was standing next to the bed. He was like, how are you feeling?

It went great. I opened my eyes. The first thing I saw was him saying like, it went great. He called me that day to check in on me. They sent me flowers, which I think that Danny probably did that. But it just was like a night and day experience. So I just continue to just say, you know, advocate for yourself with doctors. If it feels like you're not getting information, you're probably not and keep asking

for it. Keep pushing and you're not being annoying. And I very much believe this. I would not have healed the way that I did after the second one and needed the third. Had I been given all this information. I mean, that's how I felt with my rhinoplasty. If you're new here, I've got a nose job in April 2021. Best nose job in the street.

That's the best nose in the universe, I'd say. And maybe Mars included. I don't know what they're working with over there, but I would be willing to put mine up against any Martian. Mars knows. No, like Dr. of Chinsky, people often ask me. My dad keeps talking about how hot you are. Raina, stop.

Happy birthday. Bill. We'll get back to Raina and her recovering stuff, but I just want to jump in that, like, Dr. of Chinsky, plastic surgery of Short Hills, like, yes, him, of course, and he was there after the surgery, but also specifically, Stacey, who works for him was like the one that was just gave me all the information. It was following up. And you just feel so taken care of. Like, these things are not to be taken lightly. Like, I don't care. Like, you're going under anesthesia. You're altering your body in some way. Like, you should feel taken care of no matter what. in any procedure of any kind.

And so hopefully if you guys are ever doing anything like that, you do feel that. And it's super important. And obviously, if you are in New York or L.A. and you want a procedure that fall under the umbrellas of what these surgeons do, like, these are the two that we recommend the most. Yeah. I felt really taken care of and my boobs look really good. I'm really excited for like Hot Girl Summer.

And I've just felt bad about my body. I felt bad about how this breast healed. It didn't look great. It's not the end of the world. I've had sex with plenty of people that had a breast reduction. But I feel so much more confident. I just think they look good and I'm proud of it and I'm feeling better. And they've just checked in with me every step of the way.

And I just feel like I have all the information I need to like heal. And I just feel really good. And you picked me up from the hospital. Was your turn this time. Had Emily and then Jeremy and then you. And you stayed while I slept. It was nice. And it's not.

I felt taken care of. It was nice. You actually texted me later in the day and you're like, do you need to go upstairs? You want me to come back. This is nice. Well, I want to make sure you were like taken care of. Looking back, I was like, should I have just brought a zool and like stayed the night. I will say, though, so I picked you up, and it was so nice because they did it, like, in the office, essentially.

There's a surgery center in the office. So it was like, I got to see Danny too and, like, see everybody, you know. And I picked you up and I drove you home and you were like kind of in and out talking. We were laughing. We were making jokes and stuff like that. But you were like foggy and you like reclined your seat back and everything. And you ended up falling asleep on the way like Beverly Hills to Venice, like, you know, on the second half of the trip. But I was driving so slow, so scared. I didn't want to go over a bump. Like we kind of hit a curb when I parked. Like, and I was like, oh, I felt like I was going to cry. Like, because I will tell you that Lee Heseltine picked me up for my nose job and did not take into account at all that I was in the car. Same level of road rage. Same speeding. He didn't give a fuck.

It was the least calming experience was the ride from Short Hills, New Jersey to Dover, Delaware. Well, I was so incapacit. and fucked up and in pain. I was like, I can't believe. I remember banging out a text to Matt, like, I'm in hell. Like, how do you have someone in the passenger seat that's like bandaged at the face or at the boobs or whatever? Like, someone that's so fucked up and you're like, I'm going to drive regular me. Road rage.

I kept thinking about my dad. He didn't change his ways at all. My dad did that shit too. Gaslight you. Like, I just remember being in and out and hearing him like, fuck you. Like, he was just like cutting people off. I was like, Dad, like, I can't lip. And he's the best driver.

My dad's a former race car driver. Like, he knows what he's doing. I was safe, but, like, I wasn't calm. It's hot. I wasn't pain-free. Like, I was at 10 and 2. Yeah, you were amazing the whole way, honestly. And then we just drove up to the street.

There was tons of parking. And you're like, I'm going to hit this curb as hard as far as. What I'm going to do right now is wake her up. That curb comes out of nowhere on this corner. Yeah, we got you set up. and I came over, what, Saturday just to, like, talk shit with you. You were drinking. I was like, oh, I miss alcohol so much.

What did you text me yesterday? Dear Diary, I miss alcohol. Yeah. I wrote another poem. I miss wine. You are so fine. Think about you all the time. Oh, my God.

I miss alcohol so much. It causes inflammation and I have some, like, pretty bad bruising, which is, like, super normal, but it's very funny because I was at the office and I was like, this bruising is pretty bad. And to be honest, I have to be in Mexico. with somebody in a couple weeks. And they're like, yeah, we have tons of people to come out of surgery. Not me. You are too much.

Some people are going to be Mexico. You'll be there too. We'll give you guys a whole recap, by the way, and her, like, amazing birthday trip next week. But they're like, yeah, we do tons of patients that need to be red carpet ready, like, tomorrow. So no problem. They just, like, hop to it. They're like, here's this red light therapy. There's only supplements.

They were just like, bab, blah, pop. Like, if you need to get your tips done, you should do it, no way. Yeah. That is true. Like their clientele are people that are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, no time to waste. It can't be loaded right now. Yeah. I have an influencer trip.

I have a tart trip coming up. You want to announce the new stuff? We have a new blow gel for summer orange creamsicle. Oh, creamy. Suck on that. I keep wanting to say it's creamy, but it's not creamy. It's not like an apparel sprits orange. It's like a creamy orange.

Yes, the flavor is creamy. Right. The product. The product. I'm now, I don't know why I'm going down this road. I was just writing some copy yesterday and I was like, I just didn't want to call it creamy. I have people thinking that the viscosity is creamy. Yes. So we sell this thing called Blow Job Fives Only and it's to make your blow jobs tasty and enjoyable for you.

We have two flavors for summer. We already have the Pina Colada out and our newest flavor, the orange creamsicle. So we're really excited about it. It tastes delicious. If you're like, I don't love giving blow jobs, this will make your experience even better, makes your breath good. Yeah, it just evokes images. of the ice cream truck Nostalgia.

Rolling into town and now blow jobs. Harking back to when you were 12. Yes. To long days at the pool and now giving head. And these are... How old were you and you sucked your first dick?

Be honest. Well, I was like 15. Probably 14. It's not good. Oh my God. No, I'm pretty sure the first dick I ever put in my mouth was like my boyfriend

at the end of high school. Like, I don't think I had a dick in my mouth during high school. I think it was post- graduation. You know this. I mean, I didn't lose my virginity till right after I graduated. So I think that was the first guy who's like, giant dick was in my mouth. It's crazy the way I started my sexual journey. I was so warped because the first five guys I ever saw their dick had it inside of me sucked it were giant. That's true. So the first time I saw a normal dick, I was like, oh my God. What is that thing? I was like, ew, go home. Is that even hard? I know.

I was like, oh my God, he had a micro penis. I'm like, looking back. He was like, he's probably just normal. He's just a white guy, Ashley. Listen. No, because even like I'm thinking of the white guy, like that gave me my first orgasm. Huge cock. Jewish?

No. I got a barbed wire tattoo, but it was waves. You know the test. Like, I last in Virginia, you had a panther tattoo down his entire body. Starting where? He had a brother that died, and so he got a... Sorry, that's not what it's about. I wasn't laughing about it.

No. I was still thinking about a full-body panther. So he did. So he had a brother that died, so he had a giant thing dedicated to his brother on his whole back, like shoulder blade to shoulder blade, like just big as fuck. And then he had a giant panther from like chest all the way down his pecks to butt, whole side of the body. I don't hate a wild cat. Like, there's this guy. I remember, like, Matt.

matching it with him last summer on Hinge or something. This, like, young guy. I think we're both in Portugal at the same time, whatever. We never got together because I got sick. And we were, like, messaging the whole time. And he had just, like, one full, I guess, peck, right? Like, one full breast was just a giant tiger head. And I was like, that's dope.

It doesn't bother me. I don't care. Doesn't Andrew Collin have a tiger on his forum? Like, I like a wild cat. Like a leopard? It doesn't bother me. It doesn't, it's not like a tribal tattoo. I don't care.

I don't care. I'm not into it. But the guy I mentioned, anyway, I think I mentioned this before, and you've seen the photo. It was Barbara's style around his bicep, but it was waves. Ew. Like wade. Like Paxon?

It was giving Paxon. Okay. My ex has a giant naked tits-out mermaid down his whole bicep. But he's like covered head to toe at some point. Does he make it like dance? Oh, I never asked him to do that. I like that. I like a hula girl on the arm and it can dance a little.

Oh, I love that idea. Maybe I'll do that because my body's a trash can now. Just do whatever. You know what's very funny is that you used to say at the beginning of the podcast that your body was a trash can because of what you ate and now you've started to be healthy and now you're just treating it like this because the tattoos have taken place of the snacks. Oh yeah. I have a snacks tattoo. Where were we? Blow Joe.

I was trying to. Oh, right. Blow gel. Oh, I just want to say also all of our blow gel flavors are limited time only. And for the fall, we are coming out the formula that is Volva safe. So we don't recommend this for internal use right now. And also we think your pussies taste great. So do whatever you want.

But some of you have been asking. We've had some lesbian request, actually. We've had women who eat pussy and want to use it. It's not guys being like, I don't eat my girlfriend's pussy. Never once. It's actually like women on women. I mean, I love the idea. I'd even like, eat this sugar cookie.

Yeah. We are coming out the formula in the fall with some really fun flavors that will be also of all the safe because we want some of you ladies to get on your pussies too. So that's it. Check it out. Vivesonly.com. We have some really fun new products coming out in the fall as well. finally I'm excited.

Can I give an update on my pussy? Please. So as you guys know, I've been on birth control now since late April. And it's been amazing in every way for me. I can't stress enough. Everybody's experience is different. But I get a lot of messages about this because I've been really vocal about it. For me personally, now that we're in July, I got my first period, like five weeks after

that, so pretty regular. I have felt like I've lost a little weight. I feel a little slimmer. crazy drastic. I think my boobs have shrunk a tiny bit, nothing that's that concerning. You do look thinner. Your titties aren't as juicy as they were on that trip. I know. They definitely have lost a little volume. But yeah, I do feel like I feel thinner and I feel great. I mean, sex drive is up a lot. I feel more lubricated during sex and things like that. But a lot of people have asked me like, how am I preventing pregnancy? And I just want to...

Freyah! What's just funny? And I was like, why's our video guy asking us and how you're not getting pregnant. And then I had to do a whole conversation about tracking your period. I was like, why are we here? So I want to be honest about my experience. I'm not the end all beyond this. I haven't gotten it quite figured out just yet. So obviously there are many ways to prevent pregnancy. We want you guys to certainly be able to prevent pregnancy. If you don't want to get pregnant, I mean, you can get a copper IUD, which is a rain ahead. That's not what I want to do. Obviously, condoms, tracking your period, of course, but that's not always full proof. And, you know, emergency contraception like a plan B.

Well, have somebody come on your face. Also, the pull-out method. Well, the pull-up method, but I feel like I need to be careful because, you know, you can also always get pregnant even if you're pulling out,

but I think it's reading an email like, you guys, this isn't safe to promote the ball. Shut up. Ask your doctor. I'm not a doctor. I'm sharing my experience and I think pulling out is great. So I have utilized a few of these, but I did take a plan B

and I will not be doing that again because I bled for eight days straight. And this is not everyone's experience. I've taken plan B's in my life. life, like not a ton, but I've never had this happen. And so whatever. But it wasn't your period? It was. It just like kick started early and it was a full blown period. It wasn't spotting. And it would only have been a week early, which I read. Plan B can either delay or make your period start earlier and it can be lighter or heavier, like all these different things. Like everybody's body is so

vastly different. I used to spot from it, but not. So I thought it was just spotting. I took the plan B on a Sunday. Wednesday. I got my period. I probably should have gotten it like one week later. And I was like, maybe this is spotting or maybe it kick started my period earlier. And I bled a little heavier than normal. Well, I would say significantly heavier than normal for eight days. And never in my life since getting my period at 13 have I had a period that long. My periods have always been four days, like five max, sometimes three, like eight full days. I was like, this is my life now.

And I knew it would end. But anyway, I just want to say- What were your periods like before since April? Normal? I only got the one. Normal, though? Yeah, if you guys are curious, I felt like it was very, definitive. I feel like there was no spotting. I got it on a Tuesday and it was gone by Friday and it

was heavier, but like three days exactly and heavier. And the PMS wasn't that bad. And so I was like, damn, this is awesome. Like this is my first period since getting up birth control and it's been fine and manageable. But this, not that I was going to turn to plan B as my primary form of birth control, but I really want to not do that again because that was pretty brutal. And then my whole point is to not put hormones in my body. So I get it. It's so great that we have it. And of course, you should utilize it when you need it. But people have just been asking me a lot, like, what am I doing? And I'm like, I don't have all the answers. I'm still trying to figure it out. And so obviously, if you want to play it completely safe, like, use condoms and get a copper IUD,

like, whatever's going to work for you. And I also just now want, out of my own curiosity to, like, see what my fertility even looks like. I don't know. Just to know what I'm working with. I mean, I know there's always a chance. But, you know, if I went to get it checked and they were like, Like, girl, there's very slim chance you could even get pregnant. I maybe would feel a little differently. I don't know. Talk to your doctor. I'm not an expert.

I just want to be really honest and transparent about my journey with this. And like literally today was like the first day. I haven't had a tampon in and eight days. So that was not ideal. I, by the way, I love that we are synced up on our periods and our nails. We're getting manicures like around the same time. I got to go like tomorrow or the next day. We're right at three weeks.

I got to go get it yesterday. And then I got my period at the same time. So we're all synced up. Well, maybe it wasn't even the plan B. Maybe it was you. It was me. It was the energy I was giving. Kicked your period off.

I was like so happy because I was like, I'm in so much pain. I can barely move, but at least I don't have to like shove a tampon up myself right now. And the universe was like, nope. Yeah. And your period today. So anyway, be safe, you guys. Oh, can I just read this one, DM? Yeah.

We know you guys want an episode on this. So we do have a great guest lined up for this. Probably for August. So stay tuned. I love this DM so much. Hi, Ashley. huge fan the podcast, but I'm an idiot and couldn't figure out how we're to send an email to y'all. But TBH couldn't try too hard. She's like I barely tried. You just got our website right there.

Okay. I've really vived with you talking about your post-birth control journey as I stopped taking my birth control after a decade of being on it earlier this year. My body and sex drive has changed a lot, definitely more horny, et cetera, just like you talked about. Before on birth control, I would never want to have sex at all. I wouldn't feel sexy in the slightest and would get extremely depressed. I'm on my period right now and I feel like I've never been so horny in my life. I even masturbated the other day, which I've never done on my period because my fiance was gaming and not in the mood. Not like gaming. Game.

What does that mean? It was gaming. Like gaming. Playing games. Like train a gaming. Gaming. I keep saying it. Playing a video game.

Probably with a headset on. Oh. Ew. Just wondering if you have a similar experience because I kind of feel like I'm going crazy because she's so horny. Also totally cool if you read this in the podcast. Sorry if this is a weird DM. I did respond to her and say like, yes, overwhelmingly, people.

have a higher sex drive when they get up birth control. I've heard that so many different times, but I just couldn't. I'm dead. She was on her period. She masturbated her fiancee's probably playing call of duty in the next room, probably yelling at some eight-year-old and she's just rubbing one out. Nothing gives me the ick more. So if you can masturbate through that, that is crazy.

You are so horny. Yes, that's so funny. If you can masturbate while your man is gaming, good for you. That means you're on birth control. Yeah, that's how you know. That's how you know your hormone. You might be on birth control if you can masturbate through that. Okay. I was so horny yesterday. I just, I tried to, okay, after breast reductions, since I'm a pro, I try to not masturbate that much. I'm worried that my nipples are going to get hard. I'm like ripped the stitches. But this is gross, but they normally take your nipples off for breast reduction, but I didn't have that particular surgery. I just had an augmentation. So they're nice and intact. So I feel safe masturbating. But the mood struck yesterday morning, and you know how many windows are just like all around my house. One of them looks directly into my neighbor's yard. And I was just, I just threw a blanket on. And I was just like, we'll say. Yeah.

I rubbed one out. It was nice. I mean, I feel like him walking in as like a fantasy come to life. You know, if he could do that one day. I've masturbated to that. 100%. I have. To him. Well, that day he walked in the day I met him. He was shirtless. He was sweaty. He never has a shirt on. It's amazing. No shirts over there. I hope he never puts one on again. Well, when he came over. My fantasy is like actually what happened when he came over. Because remember I was making that meal? I was making tacos. And he was like, those looks so good. Your fantasy is that he sees you cook. He's like, she's so domestic. He was playing with Azul. He had no shirt on.

He was all sweaty. I know. Didn't test to sneak a picture of him in a Zool? I was taking, you did. Just snapping picks. I have so many of them. I guess I just meant I was like, the tacos are part of my fantasy. I love sex before a meal.

You know that. Sex before dinner. Well, my fantasy is that he like sees me doing that and he's like, you can keep going, I can help. And like comes up behind you. Yeah, like, or he's just watching through the window. I'm just watching him watch it happen. He just opens his window. he's basically in my house.

I'm sorry, I was talking about cooking. You're talking about masturbating. Totally. I'm so behind you. I'm picturing the kitchen counter. You're like, what? No, totally. I feel like I'm a couple weeks away from him watching the show.

He sent me something there. He was like, I think this would be funny for like a GGE live show. And I was like, oh, we're calling it GGE now. Right when they start abbreviating. You're listening. That's okay. I've been into it. He's hot.

You're listening. You should come over and have sex with me. Okay. Yeah, same over here. I'll get the tacos out. I'll get my taco out. I'll make us snacks for after sex. I have your taco right here.

If he hears this, oh my God. Well, you know what he got served on TikTok the other day was Hannah Burner's salami squad post of Hannah throwing meat at my head on a boat? And he was like, this was on my for you page. And I was like, no. I look so ugly. I'm getting so good. I'm getting slapped in the face with some sweaty meat. Yours was the best one.

We've done these twice now with Hannah, this salami challenge where they just throw salami at our faces and we have to catch it. Mine are never funny. I'm never the person in the comments. They're like, girl number three. Like mine are just, I can't get a funny moment. Yours was so good. It went right to your forehead. It was so good.

That salami was too big. I was sabotaged. Our friend's husband was tossing them this time. And he literally like just tossed a giant hunk of salami at my forehead. Oh my God. Ew. Do you want to read one email that we got? Okay.

So we've been getting some great emails from you guys. We always do. And you can also email stories at girls got to eat.com. if you have something you want us to talk about. But I saw this one come through and just thought it would be fun to discuss and see what you think. I'm going to change the cities mentioned. She writes, subject line is L-O-M-L is far away. Love of My Life is far away.

I'm writing this, frankly, because I don't trust anyone else's opinion on this. I moved from L.A. to New York about a month ago. Killed it. Keep it simple. Yeah. A week before I left, L.A., I swear I met the man of my dreams. We went out a few times and had a blast. We immediately hit it off.

and know we would have dated for a while if it hadn't been for the move. Is it worth it to reach out and ask how he's doing, or do I have to wait until I'm sure I'll see him again? Or maybe we just had fun because he knew he'd never see me again. He told me I was the whole package and then it was a shame that I was moving, but do men really mean it when they say things like that? Much love and thanks for everything always. I mean, you don't know, but there's only one way to find out.

He absolutely could have been just lying and blowing smoke and saying all these things because he and his head thought he would never see you again, but also maybe not. I just think life is long. I mean, yeah, if somebody said to me, should I enter into a long-distance relationship, I'd say, like, is there ever a possibility of the two of you living in the same city at all? But I don't know. Life is long.

You don't have to make a decision right now, and I think you can make hard decisions in a relationship later. But you went out with somebody two times and you enjoy them. Why not? Why not have a text message conversation, maybe a phone conversation? I am a huge advocate of long-distance relationships. We'll talk about it with Esther and keeping, like, the magic alive. But I think there is something to be said for, like, spending long periods of time apart and how fun that is. So I would absolutely entertain this person, at least on some level.

I totally agree. I can't tell, like, she's like, should I reach out? I don't know if she's heard nothing from him. I mean, there is no harm in literally DMing with this person or texting with them occasionally. Like, don't worry about getting bogged out and the like, but are we going to date? Is he going to be dating other people? Just keep the communication alive because you never know. I mean, the person I'm like, see now we've DMed for years, like casually off and on.

Like I'm thinking about a guy that I had a thing with in L.A. briefly in 2019. And when we moved here, I reached out to him and we went out and we got drinks. We hung out a couple times. It wasn't like a love match. But like it could have been and we're four years later. You know, like at the time, I really liked him in 2019 and obviously just wasn't going to work out. I was never going to think I was going to live in L.A. He lives in L.A. and just kind of fizzled out. But I fired it back up just to see and didn't really feel a spark. So I say that to just say like Rayna said, it's like weird. because it's like life is short, but life is long. You can look at those two different ways.

Life is short, send the text, but life is long. You never know when you might see someone again. You could move back to L.A. He could end up in New York. You could meet up somewhere. Don't go into things of like, what does this mean? And what's going to happen and how will it play out? Just keep a friendship, if nothing else, and see what happens.

Unless your goals are so strict. And you're like, I want to have kids in the next six months. I want to be married. Then, yeah, probably not the best match for you. but like, why not have fun and enjoy somebody and date around? And I think that there's a lot of value in relationships, even if they're long distance, even if they're here and there. And like you said, you never know, like, years down the line what it can turn into.

So why not entertain it a little bit if you enjoyed this person? And you literally never know what could happen. I was the most staunch. I will never leave New York City. You will bury me in the East Village. And I have... Exactly. You would have to drag me out of the city kicking and streaming.

And now I'm like, I don't even care to visit. Like, well, I'm kidding. I love New York. very much, very deeply, but I was like, you'll never get me out of here. Right. I mean, that guy that I was just mentioning from 2019, like, I think he saw me as just like a hard pass. Like back then, we were into each other and I was like, I'll never leave New York, you know, and he's just like, okay, chill. I think sometimes, maybe you can like help me articulate this. I think that men are a little more, and I always say rational, but that's not the word, but like, I think men are just

like, she doesn't live here. She's leaving. She's not coming back. Why would I bother? And I think women are more, like, fluid. And they're like, I'll make it work. I'll make the time. I'll travel, they'll travel. I think that men sometimes just like make a very surface level, that's what it is. They make more service level decisions. If she doesn't live here, she's not going to live here, I'm done with this.

And women are like, I'll make it work. And I think that if you express the desire to make it work, then they're like, oh, I guess I could. Yes. Like, you know, I don't think it's wrong to say that's rational or logical. And I think they can tend to be a little more out of sight,

out of mind than women too. And they're just different. Logical. We feel like we talked about this even with Mimi Winsberg of like when guys, aren't texting, they think everything's great. And when we're not texting, we think like something's wrong. That's sort of a different topic. But this guy could be like, she moved. She was great. She was cool. But she moved away. Like, I don't know. If you said, hey, I'm going to be in L.A.

next week. Do you want to meet up? He'd probably like, fuck yeah. I had this time with guys I met in different cities where I haven't spoken to them in so long. I feel like I haven't really been on their mind, quote unquote. And then I'm like, hey, I'm coming into town. And they're like, yeah, I'll drop everything. Say less. You know? And I also think like men don't have type of interactions with their friends that women do like men say to their friends some guys like what happened that girl and he's like she moved and the guys are like okay like girls are like what happened to that guy and you're like well we had this really great day and I moved away and they're like well text him what's what's the texting been like why don't you call him you never know you

could go back he he what's up like women are just like it's so much more depth to like the friendships men are just like she moved away and then I was like okay it's not on their minds either but your girlfriends are going to be like talking about it bringing it up so like I would reach out. Why not? Why not? Keep them on the roster. Yep. Okay. Whole squad. Whole squad ready. All right. It's time. We're so excited. Yay. Okay, guys, we are really excited to welcome back our guest today. She is truly a world-renowned psychotherapist who has changed the landscape in terms of how we view dating and mating. She is the New York Times bestselling author of multiple books, including mating in captivity and the state of affairs. Her collection of TED Talks have

amassed over 30 million views. Plus, she's the executive producer and host of the podcast. Where should we begin launching with Vox Media this month? We are honored to welcome back to the show, Esther Peral. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be back. Oh, it's so nice to have you. So glad you are truly our favorite interview of 2021. And we're here exactly two years later with you again. So thanks so much for joining us. I remember it well. I remember it very well, too. And I remember especially the before and the after. What do we do? What do we do? We just continued the conversation.

Yeah, we played the game. The game was a card game. Yes, it was best day of Raina's life. It's the best day of all six years of the podcast. It's like 2021. I'm like, bitch, it's all six years. Right, yeah, true. Career highlight.

So thank you for joining us again. To get you to be back. It's really a treat. So we're really excited. Your podcast is relaunching with Fox in such a cool way. And you were telling us before you started recording. you're surprise calling people and giving them therapy. They left voicemails.

Tell us about it. Yeah. So we are now going to be dropping an episode weekly every Monday. And it's going to be a mix of the long form that everybody knows for the past seven years that are the three-hour, one-time sessions with a couple that gets cut into an hour. None of these people have patients. It never been. We'll never be.

These are people who apply for the podcast. But now we also are going to have short form where I basically receive recorded questions from people and it mostly actually solo people. And I called them by surprise and just say, you send me a question. Would you like to have a conversation with me? I wouldn't call it a therapy session, but I could call it a little laser intervention or something where we just literally zoom into a particular pain point. I'm also going to start a subscription with Apple that was launched yesterday.

actually, and there I invite you behind the scene. There's so much that is left on the cutting floor that I never have a chance to share letters we receive from people, the couples that have been on the podcast who want to share with us what has happened to them. And people are always curious. So now I have finally a way of inviting you to all the things that are not just in the one episode every time. And all of that is happening right now as we speak. Oh my gosh. That's so exciting. What if you were in the shower and you missed a call from Esther, Perel. I would need therapy for that. I love it that you could be on a date and whether it's going well or going badly and Esther Perel calls you. And then you're like, you know what, actually,

let's just talk about what's happening right now at this dinner. That's what I probably would do. Yeah. And then I would say, is that person here with you? Shall we ask that person the very question you're asking me or yourself? Yes. And we would take advantage fully of the serendipity and the spontaneity of the moment. Yes. And the person on the other end is like, I don't know, this is a lot. Her therapist called. And you're like, I swear, I was surprised too. It's like, sure, sure. I want to set this up so that you do do this. I think it was either Obama or Joe Biden was calling people, like around the campaign, which is like, I feel like you'd be more excited

for Esther Perala to call you than Obama. Okay, well, we can't wait to listen. I'm really excited about this. So we were trying to narrow down what to talk to you about. We did an episode with you two years ago about fidelity and cheating and we really encourage people to go back and listen to that. It was a really groundbreaking episode. So we want to change it a little bit and do some different topics with you. A lot of it is, you know, what is a perfect partner in terms of give and take and how we view ourselves in a relationship of what we need from other people. But we have some really fun stuff to talk about. I want to start with couples or single people. Can I make a distinction for you? Because I think that when we divide the world between the couples and the single, I'm not sure that that serves us as well,

because people have been in a relationship and today they are single or they are single yesterday and today they're in a couple or in a triple. So I don't know that I want to divide that world like that again. We all grow up and evolve in relationships, all sorts of relationships, romantic friendships, family. So we come with a whole history of us in relationships. And I think when you do it like that, it's less the world of the norm is the couple. And then there is the single people who ask themselves, what am I doing wrong? Which is really not exactly the way this works. Thank you for saying that because I think sometimes, you know, you view a single person giving dating advice and you're like, but you're not in a relationship. And it's like, but I have been.

Well, I've played in the game. I can coach this game. It's really ridiculous. When people say, why would you take relationship advice from a single person? It's like, I mean, the only person who can coach a football team is someone who's actively playing in the NFL. Like, it makes me feel so crazy. all been in relationships. We've all learned a lot. I personally think if we're going to really, let me just say one final thing because this really irks us is like almost someone who's single has a better perspective because they're not taking their own relationship that they're in currently and bringing what they're dealing with into like a situation where they're advising on. So anyway, you kind of sparked something in us when you said that because it can be really

frustrating when people say that. And people have had so many different relationships in life experiences. And then there could be someone on the other hand that's just been in a relationship since they were in high school, the same one. And they have a totally different experience than a quote unquote single person who's really been in a lot of different types of situations. So the reason we said that is just because we agree with you wholeheartedly. But, you know, we have a lot of listeners who may be at a point in their life where they really want to find relationship, or they want to find love. And while we have you, we were just wondering if you have any advice. I know that's a very broad question, but I think a lot of people do wonder,

not necessarily what am I doing wrong, what's wrong with me? We certainly don't think like that, but just is there something I could be doing to get to a place where I can find love being a healthy relationship or thruple or whatever you may be looking for? Yes, and it connects a little bit with the question that you threw at me before we started the recording and you said, you know, we have questions about what is a perfect partner. And I guess I would start by saying a perfect partner is a partner who's aware of their imperfections. There is no such a thing as a perfect partner. That's the beginning thing, is that there is a person with whom you decide to make a life with.

There are love stories and there are life stories. There are people you can love and people you make a life with. And there are many more people you can love, actually. But you would never make a life with those people because you come from, completely different worlds, but you can have a beautiful love story on a trip, outside of the boundaries of your respective lives. And once you begin to think in that broadness, I think that the first thing I want to say is there is a real challenge today, often in meeting people. And I think it's different by gender. It's another thing. I think there's a different pressure by gender because

of biology. And because sometimes when people want children, that comes into play in terms of the pressure they put on themselves and the time frame that they see they have available to them. I think that one of the most important pieces of advice I often give is I say to people, when you go on a date, don't date alone. Go and go sit in a noisy bar to try to ask its other questions as if you're doing a job interview. Bring that person in your circle to whatever you were going to do today anyway so that if they are continuing or not continuing, you don't instantly feel like there is this gap.

There's a person who came to join you. see how they interact with your world, see how the people are speaking to them. You learn a ton of information about them that is often much more useful than the, you know, the set of questions we prepare for our intake interview. And then don't have an outcome attached to it right away. You know, allow this to be an exploration. Don't be ashamed to tell you friends, I would love to meet somebody if you know anyone. You know what?

Let's have a dinner. I bring five people that you don't know. You bring five people that I don't know. let's mix our groups and see. And let's not have the digital version, the virtual version take over on the real life serendipity. Be in places where people have a reason to begin to talk to each other. They're at a tournament together.

There are an exhibit together. There are an opening. And you, by definition, can approach someone and say, oh, what do you think about that thing on the wall? So you don't have to say, let me talk about you, about you. I'm just talking about the world around us. And from there, you say, oh, would you like to go and have a drink or take a walk? Or there's another show I heard about.

This much more organic integrated fashion actually allows you to stumble upon love, to discover something that you didn't think fits the bill on paper. Some of my favorite interactions with somebody on a quote unquote like meet cute date is when I'm not interviewing them. And we are just observing thing in a room. That's right. I'm just like laughing so hard. I'm like, you observe things the way that I do.

and you see the world the way that I do. And it's not as important to me as what your career is or how many sisters you have. I love the passion with which you spoke about that. It's really important for people to hear that it doesn't have to look like this, meet someone online, go on a date, sit across from them at a restaurant, ask all these 20 questions that you have on your list. And so I love that. And I love what you said of just like bring them around your friends,

what you're already doing because that almost manufactures a more organic meeting. You know, everyone wants to just meet someone in a bar, like out of a rom-com, but it's impossible when you are finding someone online and then making a time and a date and a place to meet up with them. And I think people can get wrapped up and like, that's crazy. Why would you have a meet your friends right out of the gate? It's like, I don't know. Why not? Because that's your life. It's your life.

Because that's what you were going to do anyway. Anyway. And so you're saying to this person, do you want to get to meet me here? This is how you meet me. And you're not saying, I'm bringing a date. You just say, you know, I'm bringing someone to join me. And if they don't come back, your life continues. You don't have a thing that you brought them on the outskirts, you know, and

I love it. Dating zone. And here is my life. In any case, you're going to integrate them. It's a very interesting thing that people decided that it was safer to put that person outside, like, in a no man's land, in some noisy place when you can barely hear what they're answering to you anyway. and that only when they really feel clear,

then they're going to bring them into their life. And I can tell you, when people actually follow this, they come back and they say it felt so much more natural. It's the way it used to be. You know, I'd love for them to come again. I'd actually think that I could see them be friends, but I'm not interested in them romantically. You get so many data points.

And then your friends are there also to be there for you in the moment and not just when you need to go and lick your wounds. Oh, it is so true. And I'm thinking, I had this birthday party last week at my house, and we're newer to LA, so we had a lot of new friends here. And I had three separate girlfriends all bring guys that they just started dating. And it was nice to just see them interact in the world. And it's not so heavy.

It's not so intense. And then I think it's really important to see how does somebody react to alcohol? How does somebody react to my friend group? Because you are going to be a part of it. So do you wallflower? Do you not talk to people? Are you rude? I love this so much.

I know. And like the person that I'm seeing right now, we had a show in the city where he lives. And he was like, am I going to get to take you out for a drink? and I was like, no, I don't have the time, but you come meet us after our show. He walked into a room, all of our friends, like walking into what can kind of be an intimidating situation, but that was what my life was doing that night. You know, like, I didn't have the time nor really the will to be like, let's go sit one-on-one at a bar or at a restaurant, you know, this person that I didn't know that well.

And so it kind of threw him into what was already happening. And that's what I prefer and it's been working out. And then they can comment on what's happening in the green room or on other people that they met. And you begin to see how they relate, how they think, how other people take them in. I mean, a social situation is a perfect moment and a perfect situation to actually meet someone, a kind of a sidestep that is uninterrupted by anything. The only thing you can look at is how they treat the waiter.

Right. I'm laughing because our one friend brought this brand new guy to Raina's party and they were just in her house, touring the house. You were like, are they in my bedroom? Like, she has this beautiful home. And of course, like, you know, it's a beautiful home. You want to show somebody you want to comment on it. Raina has art, all the things. There's a lot to comment on. But you were like, are they upstairs? But I want to know, are we going to talk shit on the same stuff? Do you laugh at the same stuff I do? Do you think the same stuff is just total bullshit that I do? Because if I say something and you're like, you know, I think you should be a little kinder about this, then we're not going to work out.

Right. I know. Okay. So I want to talk about, so we get into a relationship with somebody, you know, the dates go well, the friend hangs go well, the trips. We bring our own sort of notions of like how much I need to be with somebody, how much independence I need. And doing that dance. I wrote down a lot of stuff from your Instagram, but this dance of like independence and dependence needing security versus needing freedom. So maybe we could talk about navigating that at the beginning of a relationship and tied into this like relationship figure eight of like you do a thing and then I do a thing. And then I do thing. Maybe I threw too much at you. No, but it's a beautiful thing. It's actually not something we just

navigate in a relationship. It's something we navigate throughout our lives. I can ask every one of you. I can ask both of you, where you raised primarily for autonomy or where you raised primarily for loyalty, where you raised for self-reliance or where you raised more for interdependence. And when I say raised, it doesn't mean that it was a series of explicit messages. Sometimes, you know, we understand what the culture is by virtue of what's absent. But we all have a need for security and safety and predictability. And we all have a need for freedom and exploration and curiosity and discovery. Every human being is born with both of these needs, home and journey, roots and travel.

It's epic stories are organized around this. real archetypal thing. But everybody comes out of their childhood. Some of us needing more security and more safety and more protection and some of us coming out and wanting more freedom and space and individuality. I'm sure you would know instantly who you are. And then how do you bring that into your relationships, right? Do you find that actually your vulnerabilities meet the other person's proclivities, that if you are a person who needs more predictability, routine, structure, you find yourself actually drawn with someone who is more liquid, fluid, flexible, spontaneous, and there is a complementarity around that.

So it's a very interesting way in which we match. I don't think that it's about differences attract as much as how do we experience complementarity. What do you bring out of me and what do I bring out of you? And in the beginning, we experience these as positive things. I bring out your sense of exploration and you bring out my punctuality. And I bring out your sense of self-reliance and I bring out your sociability, et cetera. Figure eight is the continuation of that. What it means is that we are not the same person in all relationships.

We are not one person. We have a core to us, but we have multiple parts, you know, multiple shapes. inside this big palace here. And there are different parts of us that come out in different relationships. Different parts of us lock in with parts of another person. Typically in a relationship, we say, this is how you are or this is who I am. And I'm saying, with you. So what happens in a couple is that we often create each other,

which means, for example, a figure eight is, I'm a yeller, says one person, You know, I just maximize, I explode. And when I do that, it just makes you very quiet. For a host of reasons, that's the thing that makes you actually quite much more shut down. And when you shut down, I get agitated. And what do I do? I yell louder. And when I yell louder, what do you do?

You go and take a one down even more because you don't want to explode because you have your reasons to really stay very contained. And so the more I do X, the more you do Y. And my doing X is actually what produces you're doing Y. The more I yell, the more you go quiet. The more you go quiet, the more I yell. And we draw from the other person, the very behavior that we actually do not want. So here I am yelling. And you're not saying anything?

It's like the classic situation. And you were to say, no, on what basis do you want the person to say something? You've just said it all or vice versa. I wonder what examples people have and what you do also of like, here's this thing I see in myself in some relationships and not others. And I think jealousy is like a big one that comes to mind because I have people that I've dated that would say she acts little crazy. She acts little jealous. And I have other people that I've dated that would say this is the least jealous person I have ever met, lets me do whatever, would never look at my phone, would never think twice about what I'm doing.

And I think it's hard to say to somebody like, well, you're making me like this. because it can sound accusatory, but is there like a nicer way to say that to somebody? Because their behavior is what's causing me to act like this. Maybe somebody's a little less secure in a relationship. Yes, it's not invented. It's not invented at all. You know, typically I am actually quite relaxed. But there's a way in which when I talk to you and your eyes roam around the whole room

and you barely seem to pay attention to me, that kind of is a little unnerving to me. You know, so I may have a bit of a sensitivity to this, but my sense. sensitivity meets your behavior. It's the meeting of these two that makes this reaction inside of me. I think if I felt that you were actually more interested when I talk to you, and I'm not thinking, you know, that you're looking at the next best thing or that you have this wandering all the time, that makes me feel like, you know, I'm not interesting or captivating or attractive or whatever it is enough. Shall we try that for a change? Because I don't like to react this way. I don't typically want to just put the vice on you. but there is something in the way that you act that makes me react.

And I think we should take a look at that. It's a both end. I like this notion that you're not a different person with different people. You know, I think that people who are authentic and true to themselves are going to be similar across the board. But you do change. And I go back to this notion of like everybody says, like, I feel like myself around this person or I can be myself. And it's like, but maybe that's a little bit different version of yourself, right? Like maybe you're a little bit different with your friends versus your family versus your partner.

And that's not a bad thing is what you're saying. It's not that we are a different person is that different people draw different things out of us. We are living, breeding organisms. And it's like a plant doesn't react the same way if the weather is one way or another. We are social creatures who respond to our environment. That's what I'm saying. Of course, we are the same plant with the same person. But the plant in the sun is not going to react the same way as a person.

plant in the rain. It's completely obvious to us when I put it like that. It's the same with people. Me, with somebody who is not judgmental makes me feel that I can be myself, as you say, I feel accepted, I feel I belong, I feel that I can take risks. I don't feel like you're going to, you know, look at me with a weird face at all time. So I will talk differently. I will talk differently if I experience you as open and accepting. Then I would talk if I see you as rigid and judgmental. Like, you know, with my parents, they could both say the same thing to me, and I would freak out if my mom said it, but I'd be fine with my dad. Do you have a thing like that that you would say? I don't know. I mean, I think sometimes that it's interesting how we react to people who are close to us versus people who aren't in that tight inner circle. You know, I'd be more reactive to something that like my brother did than just a second or third to your friend. I don't know. I'd like think of things like that. I think it's just worth like reflecting on yourself. And also there's self-talk there. It's like, I think you should always ask yourself if you're overreact. acting and if it's just the relationship that you have with this person that's causing you to frame the situation in a way that may not be accurate.

But let me ask you, you are a creative pair. So you have a complementarity. You know each of you knows what are the strengths of the other and where you turn to the other person because either she says it differently or she has a way. You have complementarity. And it probably is not the same as you have with other people in your life, right? Yes, that's accurate. I mean, we have a very unique relationship

in that we are best friends, business partners, and we're really have become family and we're very involved in each other's families. Yeah, I don't know how to... I do. So like Ashley and I, like, Ashley tends to like make fun of me a little bit more than I make fun of her. We have a very reciprocal, but like she will tease me a little bit more, but you've said you have friends that like tease you a little bit more.

Does that make sense? And I have friends where like, I have one in particular that I kind of look like as a little sister. And so maybe I'm like a little harder on her or tease her a little more than I would somebody. else and different people just exacerbate different parts of my personality. Yeah, I always find that interesting. Like, I think in friendships, there's one friend that just kind of roast the other friend a little bit more. And it's funny because my like other two best friends, I'm the one that they tease more. And then

I'm the one that does it to rate. I don't know. It's always exploring the dynamic. Yeah, of course. So when I said to you, so when I said security or freedom, what would you say? Are they equal for you? Do you find yourself leaning more towards one or the other? It's interesting because I think we both value freedom and independence, but we don't have to worry about the security part. You know, I feel completely secure with Raina as a friend, as a business partner, as someone who, no matter what happens, we'll work through it. We've done it, you know, almost coming up on six years. So there's just a, I don't know if there's a hundred percent, but there's like a, you know, a 99.9% feeling of security I have with her that we're both so committed to our friendship,

or business, and no matter what happens. I mean, people have asked us, would you go to couples therapy if you needed to? And we said, absolutely we would. But we truly haven't had the need yet. We've been able to work this out on our own when we do have any sort of conflict or hurdle to cross. But I think we both view it that way. Yeah.

I think we're also at a stage in the relationship where we know which battles to pick and what strength the other person holds. And we're just like, you got this. I'm fine. I trust that you're going to take care of this. You got it. You know? Right.

So that's complementarity. But I do love the independence versus dependence. But you know how it plays out in a relationship is this. It's one of the ways in many ways, is that you will often find that in a relationship there is one person more in need for protection and more afraid of losing the other and often more afraid of abandonment. But you find that there is another person who is more in need of space. or freedom and more afraid of losing themselves, not the other, but themselves, and more afraid of

being suffocated. So this balance between the fear of losing the other and the fear of losing oneself, this is one of the ways that dependence or loyalty and interdependence on one hand and freedom and autonomy and space on the other plays out. And when you ask a couple generally, they have the answer. That doesn't mean that it doesn't change. We actually have different relationships at different stages of our lives. And we can have different relationships with the same partner at different stages of our life too. So when you see this, which it sounds like you're saying most of the time, there is one partner who is a little more fearful of losing the other one and there's one that's more fearful of losing themselves. Is this causing problems or is this just something to be,

I mean, obviously it can't, but is this something to just be aware of and also be aware of of your partner in what role they're playing, kind of telling yourself, like, they need their space, I need to make sure I don't, you know, I'm just curious how you see this play out. I think that what's very beautiful about this little example is it plays out in very small things, but small things that are extremely meaningful in a relationship.

For example, I like to know, you know, if you're going to be late, let me know. If you're staying out tonight, let me know. If you've landed, let me know. the other person that's really not on their radar. It doesn't matter. So what happens in a relationship is that we sometimes give the other that which we would want them to give to us.

But that doesn't mean that that's what they want. So what I say is, listen, to you, it really doesn't matter. If you figure if she didn't land or if they didn't land, you'd know it and you get a phone call from the hospital. So you're relaxed. But for them, it makes them sleep well. Why? What's the problem?

I don't care about it. You don't have to care about it. You're not doing this for you. You're doing this for them. And for them, it means a lot. We are not the same and we don't do the same for each other because what matters to one person may not matter to the other. And if you take your norm as the norm, then it becomes an issue.

But if you say, I don't care, but for them it's a big deal. I have no problem doing that. Then you do it graciously because it actually lets the other person feel better. And that way, they don't have to worry about being neglected, forgotten, abandoned. whatever it is, you know, it doesn't even matter. But you've given them the peace that they wanted rather than judging it. Why do you need this? I mean, come on.

You're not my mother. Then you have a problem. If you just simply say, if that helps you, I'll do it. No problem. I assume the issue comes into play because there's a line. There's like, sure, I will text you when I land. But then there's a line of like, I can't tell you where I am going to be every moment of the day. You can't track my location. I think the person that's scared of losing

themselves is obviously like, I don't want to do this. And so now I'm changing and I'm losing part of myself and I'm becoming more controlled by this person. You know, they feel like all of that. You're under surveillance. Right. So that's right. That's a very, very good point. So at that moment, you know, if you're in my office, that's when I switch to the other person, I say, look, a call, a this or that. Yeah. But, you know, you can't hold them on a leash in order for you to not feel worried. You have to deal with your own fears and your anxiety and they're yours. There's a limit.

Your partner is not responsible for it. Your partner can do a few things that make you feel better about it, but they're not there to make up your whole childhood. So at this moment, you know, you're putting a GPS on your phone so that you know at all time where they are. Surveillance doesn't bring trust. Surveillance institutes control. And control is not.

the same as trust and it's not going to go well for you. So are you prepared to take a look at this? Sure. I don't want to create a cycle where somebody feels babysapped by me or I'm babysitting them. And it's interesting if you just back up from the behavior will make me like you more. And my example for that is like Ashley and I are on tour a lot. And if I'm dating somebody and they really need me to call them the minute I get off stage, it's probably not going to happen. You know, Ashley and I are exhausted. We've been at sound checks since six. We did a show that started at 830. We worked all night. I kind of just want to have a drink with my best friend. I want to go to bed. I'll send you a text that it went well and we'll talk tomorrow. If somebody allows me that

space, it makes me more attracted to them. Yes. And I want them to trust me and the fact that they do trust me is so sexy to me. But the more you apply control to me, the more I'm going to probably do those things that you don't like. It's like a cyclical thing. So you know exactly where you are on the continuum, you know, and it's not just the more they trust me. It's the more self-reliant they are. It's not just that they worry about me. It's that they are okay. when I am not around. Right. They're not needing.

Exactly. You can put that word on it. That makes me more drawn to them because there is something about that confidence, that self-reliance that allows me to go do what I need to do without having to look over my shoulder all the time and saying, are you okay? Are you okay? Well, this brings us to the fundamental attribution error where we're talking about differences and partners and Raina's notes say, you said this, but we all think we're more complex

than our partner. Yes. You know, I started to think about, I mean, fundamental attribution error is part of cognitive psychology, and I just began to think, that's a term I would really like to use in some of the world. Because as a couples therapist, for almost 40 years, I often realize that people come to couples therapy

like a drop-off center, right? They come to bring their partner, and they tell me everything that's wrong with their partner. And they're telling me, I'm an expert, and you can use me and fix it. I'll help you. I would do that. That's so funny.

Yeah, you're just going to drop him off. Can you fix this? It's like the vet. So I started to think, this is so interesting. And then I looked and, you know, it's like go back to the yelling thing. You know, if I yell, it's or if I'm in a bad mood, you know, it's because I had a hard day. There was a lot of traffic. You know, there are external circumstances that.

come to explain my behavior. Whereas if you do the same behavior, and I don't give you the benefit of the doubt and the largesse of the circumstances, I see it as characterological. You know, my bad mood is circumstantial, but your bad mood is characterological. It's a part of who you are, you know. This is one of the pieces of fundamental attribution is that we give ourselves slack. We put ourselves in a context and we see ourselves as more complex, whereas we simplify the person on the other side. And it's a very funny concept to use because people laugh when I say it like that. And it's like it's a nice way of saying, can you take a look at yourself for a second? Interesting. When you behave this way, there was a whole story attached to it. When you see

your partner behave this way, you don't seem to think that there is a story ever. Yeah, except it's a terrible person. They're an asshole. Yeah, they're rude for being late, even though you're late all the time. I mean, it's an example that you used in one of the Instagram I am reels that we were watching is about being late. And I have to check myself, I'm late a lot. And if I'm sitting there waiting for someone for 15 minutes, they're an asshole. This is a horrible for you. I know. Or they don't care, right? If I'm late, it's because I'm disorganized. But if you're late, it's because you're cold and you don't care and you have attachment issues.

Yes. But to wrap it up, I check myself on that, you know, because the initial thought is like, I'm so frustrated, like, they're this and they're that. And you're like, no, they're just like me. we're all the same. There's always circumstances. There was always traffic or disorganization or you got ready too late. And so I think this is a really important concept to think about and always reflect on. It's a great concept. It's a great concept because it's kind of neutral a little bit.

It allows you to take stock and to be accountable without shaming. And that's always useful. And with friends too. Obviously, that's I think this is important with friends as well as. Yes. Yes. romantic partners. Like yesterday, Ashley was running around. What'd you do yesterday? You went to the DMV, you got your nails done, and then you worked out. And I was like, this is a work day. And then I was like,

I took the whole week off last week. She was like, I'm sorry, I'll be home. I'll look at this later. And then I was like, she fucking better. And then I was like, oh, yeah, I took the whole week. And then I worked from seven to midnight. You know, like, I just made it up later. I was like, I need to have a day to myself. I got to get my nails done and my birthday's coming up, you know. I saw this email she sent at 10 p.m. last night. My heart like swelled up. I was just like, look at her go. But did you think of yourself? Oh, I was quick to judge? I thought to myself for a second, I was quick to judge. And then I had self-talk. And I was like,

bitch, you took a whole week off. Yeah, I had to like carry these companies on my back last week, which is another example of our relationship health is just, there was a point last week where I was like, yeah, I don't love that Raina is under anesthesia. And I'm the only person. that has the answers to all these questions. Everybody from our team is asking me this, asking me that. Like I kind of just want to have a relaxing day and then go pick her up at the surgical center.

But no, but she would do the same for me and she has. I just think that it's always give and take in romantic relationships, friendships, friendships, and business partnerships. Absolutely. And you know, you're asking me, for example, and I'm giving you very simple ones just to get the concept. But when you listen to the episodes of where should we begin,

it's one example after another of how couples, organize around the dynamic of security and freedom or around independence and loyalty. You see it all the time. And you see also the history that brought them to lean more in one direction or the other. And when you ask them about their other relationships, you see what is consistent.

And you see the relationships in which they've often been exactly on the other side of the conversation. They've been in both roles, you know? I like that that we can be both. we're not wired one way and we're destined to be that way in every relationship until the end of time. I think it's extremely hopeful as a view. It actually, you know, this idea about the comparison with the plant, I have to say it very often, but it actually gives people a sense that they're not stuck because when people come to see someone like me, they come because they're stuck.

That is the primary reason. Stuck inside themselves, stuck with their partners, stuck in the rot, in the same story, stuck it sexually. Stuck is the organizing thing. So anything you can offer to people that breeds hope. And that means there is more than just this way of being. And it's inside of you. It's not like you don't have any access to this. You've known it because you have done it in other relationships.

Or you've known it because you have other dynamics between the two of you where you don't fight like this about this at all. So you have in your repertoire other ways of dealing, but you don't know how to do it when it comes to this topic. Okay. So let's use the resources available in the system. And it's a very strength-based, hopeful approach to working with people, as I see it. It is so interesting that we show up as totally different people and different relationships.

I mean, I have people that have really exacerbated my, like, incredibly anxious attachment. And I have become like, love me, pay attention to me, I need you. And other people I've almost been, like, avoidant. And to me, it seems like who's more alpha in the relationship. relationship for me, like in terms of the energy I give out. I think I'm probably closer to the center. I'm pretty securely attached person. I grew up in a wonderful family. My parents really loved me. But every person I've dated has sort of pulled out different traits in me. To me, it's like the level of neediness. I don't really deal with it well with friends, with romantic partners. My family's not

like that. Like when I really feel like a thirsty, needy energy, I pull back. It becomes unattractive to me. And I mean, I can pinpoint it back to different relationships where I felt like completely responsible for someone's well-being and mental state. But I can always detect it when I want to pull back because of it. So it's interesting because what you describe is actually a very, very common. I can illustrate it to you with a question that I've taken around the world with me, probably 25 countries, you know, where I asked a question, when do you find yourself most drawn to your partner? Not sexually attracted, drawn in the broad sense. And universally, the first answer is when my partner is in their element, when they are self-sufficient,

when they are radiant, and the radiance can be when they're at a piano on the horse on stage, you know, doing their thing, but basically they don't need me. And therefore, they are confident. And when they don't need me, I can want them. Because when they need me, I can be loving and caring, but I am not in the realm of desire and the erotic. Yes. When I am proud of you. When I'm looking at that person thinking like, look at him go, that's when I feel the most excited about somebody. That's the second one. It's admiration. Same thing. But this thing about caretaking as being often unerotic, because it also, especially for women, it appeals to the maternal. And the maternal means I have to be concerned about you. I have to worry about you.

I can't be that attracted because desire demands my ability to at some point not worry about you, but be focused on myself and my own pleasure. So physically, it's involved in. I love this so much. And what we didn't want to go too hard on with you today, but I love to just hear you have like a little bit of time to speak on it. Just because it's touched on it so many different times, is that maintaining independence to create desire and how the sameness is what kills desire.

And when you just become the same person, you live together, you spend every night together, you have all the same hobbies, interests, friends groups, all the things. And then all of a sudden you're not having sex and you wonder why. So we have talked about it a lot, which is why it wasn't one of our primary topics for you today. But we'd love to just hear you speak on it a little bit because we can't hammer it enough to people. I mean, I can continue the same thing. So the first answer is usually when my partner is radiant.

Basically, there is a space, a distance between me and the other. When I see you at the piano, when I come to see you on stage, when you're on tour, when I admire you, when I'm proud of you, there is a distance between me and you, a psychological distance, that actually is the erotic elon. That's the whole idea. There's a tension there. There's this person who is usually so familiar, who is momentarily, once again, somewhat mysterious and unknown and elusive.

And I don't have you, and therefore I can want you. But the second answer that is, there's four of them that really kind of give you a theory of desire, so to speak. You need attachment for connection, but you need separateness for desire. And the second one is when I'm surprised. And the surprise means that it is exactly that. We're not doing the same. We're not in the routine.

It is unpredictable. And it calls for the otherness. And therefore, a bridge to cross. Now, you can surprise me in a thousand ways. You make me laugh. You dress a certain way. But it's, you know, you make me curious. And curiosity is an essential erotic ingredient.

When we are apart, when we reunite, meaning that distance, again, space is at a root of desire. and not just when we are together, actually, that longing and yearning are core elements of desire. And when I see you through the eyes of another. And that's when your jealousy, Raina comes in. You know, a little bit of it. Healthy jealousy, right?

Yes, a little bit of it actually creates a certain tension that is an ingredient in love and desire. More of it, too much of it, makes me completely anxious and worried and fretting the whole night. and that is not a good situation. But seeing you through the eyes of another is also that the other person sees you outside of our relationship.

They don't see their boyfriend, the hubby, the girlfriend, the them. You know, they just see this person with their own appeal. And that suddenly means that you don't belong to me. And that partners are always just on loan with an option to renew, as I like to say. Yes, 10-year lease. I don't want to get married. I just want a 10-year-lease. I think it's perfect advice.

different than like Ian Kerner who's phenomenal, you know, it's different than fixing your sex life. It's different than like scheduling a date night. It's like actually schedule something outside of the relationship that the person can admire or watch you do. And I think that's really interesting and almost counterintuitive to like how do I reignite the spark. It's not like get a butt plug and try butt stuff. It's like, well, why don't you do something that they can watch that I guess they'll watch you with the butt plug. Do you know what I mean? No, but you're on to it. What I'm talking about is not doing it. People have done it. People have done it. for centuries and felt nothing. Women are experts at that. I'm talking about the erotic energy in a

relationship. What makes you feel alive, vibrant, curious, imaginative, playful. That is what leads to wanting to be sexual with somebody. You can do it. That's not the point. You know, the erotic doesn't ask you to do much of anything. It fills you up with imagination and energy. And that's a very different kind of approach. Yes. Can you say the four things one more time? Yes. Yes. When you're in your element. And that means confident, radiant, self-sufficient, i.e. you don't need me. Therefore, I can want you. I don't have to take care of you. I don't have to worry about you. Worry and care are not always erotic, especially for women. Because the desire is rooted in the freedom from the burden of caretaking. Okay. And number two, surprise.

Surprise. Novility. Novelty breeds testosterone. Number three, the triangle, away from the diadic gaze through the eyes of another. And number four is absence and longing. Distance. Long distance relationships exclusively. This is not a theory, by the way. This is me cultivating, you know, asking this question to thousands of people and gathering and just saying, I see a pattern here and it's cross-cultural. There's only one that is gender specific, by the way, is when she says, I'm drawn to him when he plays with the kids. Okay. And it's not reciprocal the other way. Now, because when she plays with the kids, that's not very sexy. It's not playing with his penis.

Huh. It makes sense. He's like the mother figure. You don't want to fuck your mom. Some people want to fuck him. That's exactly. That just blew my mind. Because, yes, you see your husband with the kids.

You're like, oh, I'm so turned on. Yeah, it doesn't work the other way. God damn it. I don't want kids, but I'm just saying. Yeah. Okay. This was incredible. I'm at a loss for words, but we really appreciate you joining us again and

talking about all this with us. Yes. And hopefully we can do this with you in person. And congrats on the, I guess, relaunch of the show. We can't wait to listen to it. You want to tell everybody where they can find you and we'll, of course, tag everything in the descriptions. So the podcast is available on Apple Podcasts or anywhere where you listen to your podcast.

The subscription is an Apple subscription. Vox is our platform distributor. And it's every Monday, weekly, where should we begin work and where should we begin? Love. It's all on one feed now. And I can't wait to see you there. Okay. We miss you.

Yes. We see you soon. This was great. Thank you so much. Bye. Bye. Well, we hope you all enjoy that interview as much as we did. And you can find us at Girls Gotta Eat.com. Everything you need having to do with Girls Gotta Eat Tour tickets for the fall. And again, our partners, our episodes, all of that. Girls Gotta Eat podcast, both on TikTok and on Instagram. I am Ash Hess. Raina is reina.org. And of course, Vives only. Vives only.com.

Get that new orange cream sickle blow gel. Vives only on Instagram. And make sure you're subscribe to YouTube, share with a friend, and we'll see you next week. How good week, guys. Bye.