Girls Gotta Eat - Understanding (and Healing) Your Original Wounds with Therapist Vienna Pharaon

Episode Date: November 13, 2023

We're so happy to welcome back marriage and family therapist Vienna Pharaon to talk about healing work and the five original wounds. She shares her own personal story of her parents' (nine year long) divorce and how she didn't think it affected her until later in life when she was ready to process and work through it. Then she walks us through how to pinpoint and understand your original wounds and how they are affecting you today, and gives steps for how to heal and stop holding yourself back from healthy relationships. We also discuss how red flags can be a positive thing, the unhealthy side of choosing partners who put you on a pedestal, and why breakups don't equal failure. Before Vienna joins us, we have a debut cameo from Sparkle Eyes. Enjoy! Follow Vienna on Instagram @mindfulmft, check out her podcast This Keeps Happening, and get her book The Origins of You. Follow us @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit our website for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Shop Vibes Only. Thank you to our partners this week: Daily Harvest: Get up to $65 off your first box at dailyharvest.com/gge. Nutrafol: Get $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping at nutrafol.com when you use promocode GGE. Helix: Get 25% off all mattress orders through November 19 at helixsleep.com/gge and use code HELIXPARTNER25. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There's so many storylines that we can cling to. And whether those things are true, it actually doesn't matter because it becomes a distraction away from acknowledging our story. We've got to eat. Welcome back. We're going to just get it over with. Sparkleyes. Welcome to Girls Got to Eat. Hi, guys.

That was perfect. That was strong. How do I feel? I'm a little sweaty, a little nervous. Okay. It's all right. At least I'm not on camera. Do you want a fan placed on you?

Ashley gets hot too. We keep a fan here for her. With Dyson fucking air fans. Ashley has one in her room because she needs it to sleep. You guys have to stop having so much sex in the middle of night. She'll be less hot in the middle of the day. Yeah, that doggy in the middle of day. Jesus.

So we're excited to have you here. We're going to talk to you a little bit and then we're going to have you see your way out of here. Yeah. This is on our guests for the day. No. He will have his own episode. After a year. That's, well, we treat our employees the same.

Right. But it's also been two and a half. years. In his eyes, we have, in his sparkly eyes, we have been together for two and a half years since the first DM. But no, okay. So it's been a great week. We're going to talk about what's been happening, but I just want to say we released new

flavors of the blow gel with vibes only last week and a new toy, the Debbie AirPulse suction vibe. It's my favorite orgasm of my life. So thank you guys for purchasing it, storing the store, supporting it. Our two new flavors of blow gel are sugar cookie and peppermint paddy. And it's been going great. Thank you guys for the support. We're glad you love it.

Yeah. So the sugar cookie is flying. The pepperment patty is doing great too. But the group that dressed up for the Halloween shows as iconic men of GGE, which we talked about as a little spark-alized Dallas Business Card guy and short zipper king, she DM'd and she was so wonderful. She sent the photos. And she was like,

I wanted to blow gel, this and that. You know, I was wondering if you would sell them with the shows, all this, which we hoped to you one day. I was like, let me send you one as soon as the new flavors drop. Just remember to DM me. And she DM me first thing this morning. I was like, oh my God, I was hoping it was peppermint Patty so much.

Wait, really? Oh, I love that. So she could be giving a peppermint paddy blowjob as we speak. Or a peppermint pussy. But right, she could be getting her peppermint as we speak. Because they are vulva friendly. Yes. So thank you guys for supporting vibes only.com.

You can grab all those things great for holiday gifts. We have the most beautiful packaging I've ever seen for any sex to a company, very high-end in cheeks. So great for yourself or for somebody else. Yes. Every time we gift one to someone, they just are blown away by the packaging. It's so smooth. Better than Apple Box. I'll say it.

It is. It's better than Armez, Apple, all of it. It's so smooth. Yeah. Sexy. Like your feet that day we missed up like. Yeah. Okay.

So the shows have been going great. We've had three California shows this month. Yeah. We have not gone to San Diego yet as we record this. We'll go to San Diego in two days. But San Francisco, fantastic. L.A., unbelievable, our hometown show. And Sparkle,

and I lied to you for months. Planting months. Oh my gosh. October. Since October? No, September. No, September. One with the Texas shows.

End of September. End of September. Yeah, September 29th. You originally messaged me. It actually was the second time you solo texted me. And I was like so nervous. I was like, what's you going to ask? I was nervous.

And you were like, I'm thinking about surprising Ashley to show. What do you think about this weekend in Texas? And we were talking about some other shows maybe. And then you were like, L.A. would be really fun because I could stay for the weekend with her. Because Texas, we were going in and out really quickly. Yeah, and like all of our friends and stuff. That was what you had said to me.

You were like way more people are going to be there. It'll be way more fun. Yeah. Yeah. I was concerned about just bothering you guys and like adding a layer to it. But Raina was like, no, it's fine. Oh, you don't know. I may.

It's my favorite thing about you. You could have been with Raina's dad in Texas, but it's so much better that you're here. And then also like this was going to be a time when we weren't going to see each other for almost a month. And so this cut it up and it was just so you guys are planning this. I did no, but not until the day of. So you guys did a great job. and then you blew it, obviously. I sold myself more.

His communication style changed and you were like, I could tell. I think that we know each other so well in the way that we communicate. So the smallest change. And I hoped anyway, I kept trolling you about it. All leading up to it, I was like, see you, son. Like, I was trolling about coming down, like, just jokingly, because I want him to come and be there so badly. You know, we live here now. And I love when he visits, of course.

So I realized it in like mid-afternoon. And the thing that tipped me off was that I sent him a video that was actually Ryan, our videographer, in his van. Ryan's van is parked out front. That's what I want to talk about next. So I basically sent him this video like, ha, ha, ha, how funny is this? And he was like, oh, it's not loading,

but he got the text. So immediately I'm like, he's on a plane. And then I was like running the tape and I was like he hasn't yet told me how work is today because the whole thing was that he thought he'd work. I meant to tell her about work. I literally meant to tell you, you got to tell her how work is.

I don't want to be like too responsive or like answering everything because, let's be real. You don't respond to everything. I ask you all the time. She's never not texting with you. I'm like, Ashley, hello, hello. So, but then I'm like, okay, his communication has been a little different today.

And then what is the smoking gun was first thing in the morning at 7 a.m. We get up in San Francisco to fly out, early morning flight. So I'm still foggy. Obviously, I had my coffee still really tired. And you would text to me something very sweet. But basically, I didn't mean to stop sharing location with you. I don't know why it said that, which I never got a notification that you stopped sharing location anyway. So you didn't need to say that.

But I get them all the time when people stop. I thought, you usually do. I didn't know. You usually do it with a notification. So when I realized, I go, oh my God, and the stopping sharing location. And then I knew it in my soul. And I made a note in my own phone so I could have a receipt for myself. The title of the note was receipt.

And it is the funniest thing I've ever seen. And I wonder how many people have thought this. Like, if you thought someone was going to surprise you, I mean, thought you were going to get engaged. Whatever it is, you have a feeling. And what you don't want to do is tell people that are going to follow up if case you're wrong. Totally. So I didn't want to like tell you or obviously. I was like, if he's here, Rain is in on it.

I didn't want to tell anybody that could be like, so did he come? And then I have to be like, no. So I put this receipt in my own phone that said he's going to surprise me a night, timestamp to 12, 38 p.m. And then I did voice note, Corey, because we were talking back and forth. And I was like, okay, I think he's going to come to L.A. tonight and just, I don't know. I am hard to surprise.

Yeah, it's a nightmare. I know. I was like, you're not going to get any by her. Like my 18th birthday, my mom had playing this whole surprise party. And this was her fault, but I did come home and I saw the invite on the computer desk and I was like, started inviting my own friends. So like she didn't miss anything. I started planning that myself. And I didn't tell them for years. I let them think I was surprised. I almost lived up on the phone one day when we were talking. And then I talked to Raina about it.

And she was like, she's never going to miss anything. She's way too fucking smart. He was like, I don't think she's everything. You can't lie to her. I was like, she's a nightmare. You can't lie to her about anything. He was like, I said this thing. I don't think she caught it. I was like, she caught it. Well, and then you made a dinner reservation for last night. And you were like, have you ever been this place? You had no idea that that. That didn't tip me out. But then it all came together. when I realized it. And then I felt like I could feel when you landed, because you said you took a nap, such a lie. And then you kind of resurfaced, you're like, oh, I feel rejuvenated. And then I was like, he's, and then I was like, meanwhile, he was just here. He was talking shit and stuff.

I was like, he's landed. And I was like, where is he? I kept looking out my window. Yes, me, him and Ryan were hanging out and you guys, you were like, you guys hang out without me? It was for you. So because you want to surprise me at the venue, the whole way it went, it was really sweet. But I was telling him, I was like, I can't believe you were just like at Raina's house hanging out. It warms my heart. It was great. We talked about everything under the sun. I love it. And I was like, was it awkward at all. And it was just the two of you? He was like, no. I was like, okay, good.

No, I really enjoyed that hour. It was like really fun. And so I was saying to Melanie, my friend Melanie the other, I was like, I'm carrying so many lies. Because one of our good friends is pregnant. And she was like, please don't tell Ashley, I want this moment or I tell her. And I was like, I really, brutal. Really want to tell her, but I can't steal this from you. Like, that's like the one thing I won't steal from a person. Yeah. Like, if somebody else got engaged, I'm telling everybody. But pregnancy, I'm like, how many times you have to tell somebody that?

So I was like, fine, I won't tell her. And I knew that you were coming. And it was like killing me. And I was saying to Melanie, I was like, all these secrets. And it's just a web of lies. It is tough. And she was like, well, at least there's the good secret. She was like, people tell me that they're like cheating on a spouse.

And she's like, I don't want those secrets. And I was like, you're right. Your life is worse. And then I just like, I really wanted to respect everyone like to keeping the secret. But I have to tell you, I like, held back because I get to the theater. Tessa comes outside and gets me. You were there right before. And Tessa goes, drop yourself in the green room.

And then we do have to go up and do one thing. There's something kind of weird with the mics and we have to check them. I'm like, never has this happened in the history. And I thought that was great. And I almost said, I almost said, like, he's here, isn't it? Like, I almost said it. I was like, you know what? I'm just going to go with the flow.

She did a great job. She didn't do anything to tip me off. She was great. And then I go, and one other thing, too, I said, is Raina here yet? And you go, yeah, rain is here. Like, you stumbled for a second to. I catch every little thing. I'm like, I'm in the worst.

But it was really nice and special. was going to be here tonight. I was like, she knows. Yeah. Okay. And then last thing he said to me, he was like, it's killing me that I can't complain to her about being at the airport. Because like, we just talk so much shit all the time. And I hate everybody in the general public. And I talk to you about it. That's really sweet. Yeah. He was like, this is killing me. He had talked to her about all the stuff of the airport. So I texted Raina about it briefly. I'll tell you what. You could always complain to rain about the airport. She said, okay, I'm available. I said, complain to me about anything. Everything. Everything. I love complaining. Oh my gosh.

Anyway, it worked out. It was really fun and special. And I was really so glad you could be there because we had such a big group of friends come. And it really made LA feel just like special and home. And I loved it. Yeah. All right.

So you were here for the live shows. I just want to thank everybody again. We've been getting more emails than ever before. People saying what a special night it was. And I mean, it never ceases to stop being important to you guys spend your time and your money on us and that you have the best time ever. So there's two more shows this year. We have Toronto on December 8th and New York City, December 10th.

Couple tickets left. And that is it for the year. We cannot wait. and my outfits are so good. You have been going all the way off. I don't want to make you proud of me. It's so funny. We had this kind of miscommunication where we came off the Halloween shows and you were like,

I just want to wear costumes forever. Like this was so fun. Yeah. Costumes. And costumes. Costumes. You sent these looks and I go, well, they do look like costumes. And I was like, I stopped on my stairs and I was like, fuck her.

And literally I was trying to compliment you. I was like, one of these looks like a Christmas ornament. And the other one looks like a Vegas showgirl. And you can't say they don't. And I thought that's what you were going for. So my self-talk standing there was like, well, you sent it to her. That's asking for feedback. And she gave you the feedback.

What are you mad about? I really thought I was telling you what you wanted to hear. We usually don't have a breakdown like this. No, it was really funny because I was like, you're asking her for feedback. She's giving feedback. But like also those two things are like kind of the vibe. Christmas ornament? Like last year you looked like a fine.

Firecracker. I look like a snow owl. Did you like Christmas award this year? I'm so excited. Yeah. So Sparkleyes is here and Ryan is here, our video guy. He lives in a van and he's parked outside of my house. Have you been in the van? I've been in the van. Oh yeah.

It's pretty sick. Whatever these two tell you is bad because it's nice. It's a nice van. I know it's nice. Oh, I think it's so incredible. They love each other. Neither of you will get in the van. Let's just get the bromance out of the way.

I love Ryan. We know. That makes to us. He loves me, so. No, I mean, he bought a van, gutted it, installed, like, heating and plumbing. I think it's so sexy. None of you bitches talk to him.

But he's parked outside of my house because Venice is very trailer-friendly. They're just everywhere. Totally. So he's been living at a spot that another camper was in before that. He's been living outside my home in his camper van. And I keep him like, do you want a shower in here? Do you want to go to the bathroom? He's like, I'm just very happy in my van.

And I'm like, there's a Helix mattress in here. There's buffy sheets. Like, you could use a bedroom. And he's like, I like, I like, I like my van. And I'm trying to straddle this line of like, how often am I allowed to ask him to come over? And like at what point am I like being too much? Like yesterday I tried to be respectful. I waited for him to text me first at 8 a.m.

Because every day I want to send a you up text and be like, come over. Like, where's the line? He like lives with me, but like he doesn't. He has his own home and it's next door. Okay, Raina, but in his defense, it seems like that's what you would want. Ryan does listen the show from time to time. His mom listens. And all you do is talk about you don't want men in this house.

So it seems to me that he's trying to give you the best of both worlds where he is around, but he's in his own house. He's not leaving water bottles out and leaving toilet seats up and doing all the things that you've been complaining about since you moved in. So true. But now he's here. I'm like, I'm a buddy that's just like two feet away from me and I want them around all the time. And like, where's the boundary? I don't know if I'm allowed. This morning, I was like, I got you a burrito if you want to come over. Should I lure him in with food? Yes. Yeah, earlier you were like, Ryan, I got you some berries. I'm like, where's my

berries? He came with me to the farmer's market yesterday to get those berries. I got him a burrito yesterday morning too. Actually, he paid for the burritos yesterday morning. He's the most, like, doesn't want to be a bother and doesn't want to be in the way. I know. You know? So I have to be like, please take a shower with me.

It's not going to bother me. I don't want to bother him, but I'm like, it doesn't bother me. Sleep in any bed. Take mine. That's so funny that you lure him in to take a shower and you're like, oh, only one shower is working. That's so weird.

And I'm in it. I'm naked. Anyway. I just, I want to know where the line is. Like, am I allowed to ask him to hang out? He was at the house the entire day with us today. And he went to leave and I was like, do you want to go to dinner with me?

Yeah. I don't know where the line is. He's wonderful to be around. Yeah. You guys are really good friends. I don't want to assume just because he lives with me that he'll hang out with me all this time. Well, the shower.

Jock my memory. We just said this thing you did that made me laugh so hard this point. I've done a lot of things that have made you laugh pretty hard. I know. He made sure to tell me he was funny at dinner last night. The tagline is she goes, babe, babe, you're really making me laugh. just to like validate me, but I'm like, I know, I'm funny.

But this morning I, like, doubled over. What do you do? I thought it was pretty average, but it was like, it amazes me when I say something that I don't think is that funny, and she, like, loses it. I'm like, I didn't mean intend for it to be that funny. Right. So it's because it's relevant.

So last week we talked about naked attraction. My whole personality is the show. And it really is. And then I had him watch an episode last night. And so this morning. So strange. I've never seen so many dicks in my life. It was, the premise of the show was like these guys, for example,

are in these pods and then they lift up the front door of the pod to just show their dick. And so this morning, we had a shower together than I got out and like I had to get ready to come over here. And he like was finishing up as I was like, you know, just putting my lotion on and stuff. And he was just like, babe. And he had the towel lifted up to right above his dick. He was like, would you choose me? It was so funny to me. Answer it. Like it was a great callback. She like came over. Like that show was kind of weird. I inspected it. Yeah. I moved him around a little bit. They show you all the bits and she came over.

They do? They have to move their dicks and the balls around. Sometimes they will lift their dick up to show more of the balls if that's what the person who's picking wants. But he was so shocked at the close upsets of like dick and vagina on this show. Like count the ingrown hairs on people. It's gross. It's gross.

Bodies are beautiful. Bodies are beautiful. Yes. But I don't want to see that. Some are less beautiful than others. You don't have to see those dicks like that. Yeah. You like the vaginas.

Some of them were nice. Some of them were not very nice. Yeah. They're all different. Yeah. Everybody's beautiful. But some are more beautiful. beautiful than others. Correct. Yes.

That is so funny. You were like, look at my dick in this pod. He had this giant doll like holding up just right above. It was like very funny. I thought you were to tell me he helicoptered. No. He's not silly like that. We don't, we're not silly. That's sticky. You get the ick. No, you're Boston person. Boston men are not silly. We're just mean and we just scowl. I like that. Yeah, we like that. He's the Grinch. That's it. I just wanted to tell you about my dilemma. of like how much my lot asked him to hang out with me.

I mean, it's just been nice, like, having them around. It's very funny. So this whole thing happened. We asked for emails and whatnot at the shows. Again, if you guys are coming in the holiday show, send in your emails. Not necessarily just the crazy stories that have happened to you once in your life. But if they're related to, like, someone you're with or they happened the night before, for example, things like that. We liked you to roast your friends, your partner.

Those are kind of what we're looking for. So this woman wrote in, she was like, I went on a date last night with a guy in a camper van. Like, he picked her up in his van. And we were like, oh, my God. it Ryan. Because the way she described it, she was like, well, he made the plan at 7. He kept pushing it back to 8, 8.30. I knew the previous night that he kept pushing his plans back.

Because he was outside of my house making burritos by himself. So like, spoiler alert, it wasn't him. But when we landed from San Francisco and we see the van, we die laughing, seen it parked in front of your place. And he popped out before we even got to the door. And we were like, is there a girl in there? Be honest. It was just this hilarious thing.

And that's like the video that I sent to you. It's all full circle that you didn't get because you were lying to me. and keeping secrets. But yeah, it's just like, it's so funny. I've been really enjoying this week. There's a lot of people around. I know. Which is crazy because I really think I like being alone.

But when I'm around other people, I do enjoy it. It's all I care about. I want to be where people are. Sorry, Little Mermaid is my favorite Disney movie. What did you say you like to be on your phone in the midst of other people being around you? Well, I just like people around me all the time. So we've had a couple times where I'm like working and I'm in bed and I'm like on my laptop. But he's like laying there next to me.

and I just feel, like, I just, I feel better. Yeah, I like that, too. I do like that. Yeah. But I like to lay out. What is a parallel play or something? Mike Johnson used the term. And we heard it before that too.

I even feel like that sometimes where, that's why I like to go work someplace sometimes, like outside of my home. Just like, I'm not talking to anybody. I might have my headphones in. I'm fully, like, immersed in my work, but there's, like, people around. Totally. Yeah, I love that. I like going to work in, like, an outdoor space with other people.

Okay, so we're going to get into it with Vienna. I wanted to tell everybody, I'm sure people are like, we want to see Sparkleizing video. When he does his full episode, we will reveal the video, hopefully. I can't wait. And that will be coming soon. We don't want to blue ball you guys. Yeah, but if you want to watch us, YouTube.

YouTube.com. Yes. YouTube. Girls got to eat. All the episodes, full video. We're also on TikTok. If you go to Girls Gottoeat.com, all of our partners, all of our promo codes for the partners, every episode, everything's there.

Yes. Okay. Let's get into it. Okay, guys, we are so excited to welcome back a guest. Finally, she is a sought after. licensed marriage and family therapist, as well as a speaker and author. She is the creator of the Instagram account Mindful MFT, boasting a community of over 700,000 followers and the author of the national bestseller, The Origins of You,

how breaking family patterns can liberate the way we live and love. Her new podcast is out now. This keeps happening. Please welcome back to the show, Vienna Faron. I want to be introduced by you every day. Everybody feels like that, and it's not an accident. We want people to go and be like, I am the show. That's right.

Yeah, it feels good to hear. Do you want me to introduce you? Yeah. I was thinking maybe you could just start my days. She is my best friend and the baddest bitch there is. Please welcome to the show, Ashley Heslton. My best friend is the number one credit. She is Sparkleized girlfriend.

Who is here. Yes, we'll welcome Vienna. We're so excited to have you back. We had you right before COVID. Yeah. During the pandemic. Your life has changed. My life has changed.

I'm a mom. I'm a mom. I had a kid. I know. We're out of the city now. I know. Lots of changes. Lots of shifts. I wrote a book. Right. I was also like, let's talk about your book. But it was like the birthing of, I mean, it was wild. I had a baby and then wrote a book five months postpartum. Oh, wow. Don't recommend it at all, but I did it. Somehow I got through and there's a book out in the world that people seem to like. So, it's good. Yeah. I've enjoyed reading at The Origins of You and we'll unpack it. And you've really great. advice about just sort of how to reframe situations in your romantic life to have better outcomes based on how you're raised and what your original wounds were. We'll talk all about that. We talked to you a little bit more about family last time. I was saying that I always find myself saving Vienna's Instagram posts and not even looking at the handle before I look at the content. And it's like, it's nice when I'm like, I love that. And then it's in Vienna. I actually,

I was like, actually, can you send me all those posts you save me, please? I know. It's just like all these things. And then I like what you've been doing where it's kind of. of like a, it's a video. It's like got some movement to it. And it's just like nice. It's like palming. Yeah, the whole aesthetic. I'm really, just really working that algorithm. I know. They keep us on our toes over here. Right. You're like, how can I make this static graphic into a reel? Yeah. You're doing it. You're really doing it. By the way, people want to find your previous episode. It's December 16th, 2019. And it's really about family. We talked a lot about the holidays and in-laws and things like that. So go find that. But let's talk

about the book and maybe the inspiration for why you wrote it? Yeah. I mean, the book definitely was an extension of, like, my professional work, of course, but also I got into, I always say that therapists get into this line of work, whether we know it or not, to resolve that which is unresolved in our lives. And that's all of us, right? Like, we're like, okay, like, I'm going to go be a therapist. And it's like, oh, yeah, like, you have stuff to work out. And I didn't really know it at the time. I was in school for psychology, for undergrad. And then, you know, my parents went through what was a very long divorce process. It was the longest in the state of New Jersey at the time.

It just came back to me. Yes. It's in the book too. I was like, oh, right. Yeah. And yeah, like I had always been really curious about relationships and why certain ones work and why other ones don't. And from a very unavolved place, it was like, I definitely don't want to end up the way that my parents did. And I do say that lovingly, but it was like it was my first education. It was the first template for everything of what I saw about conflict and communication and what love was and what intimacy was and wasn't and boundaries and all of that. And I didn't have the best education there. And I wanted to really try to safeguard myself because I didn't want to experience, you know, what they had experienced. I had experienced it as a kid, which was a very different perspective. But I wanted to

try to figure out what was going to actually create, you know, long-lasting, fulfilling expansive relationships. And so I went into grad school. I didn't know that I was necessarily trying to resolve this stuff. But in the beginning, you had a kick out of this. I was like, yeah, my parents divorced didn't affect me at all. Like, I was like clinging to that even in grad school. And I think it was so sweet that my professors and advisors and supervisors were like in due time. Yeah. She'll get there. And I really existed in this place where I was like, no, no, no, like we do holidays together now, which was true. And, you know, they had gotten to a much better place. And so I really held on to this story that they were like, great friends. I had not been

affected, all was good in the world. And that was the furthest thing from the truth. I think I had that perspective because it protected me from needing to feel. It protected me from needing to like go there and grieve and actually like witness what I needed to witness what I had gone through. So just such a protective mechanism for me. But when I was working with, you know, now I've worked with over 25,000 hours of like individuals and couples and families. And I just kept seeing that the patterns in our adult lives now, right, the ones that we just like, want to shake, the conflict that we keep getting into, the fact that we might keep dating

and pursuing people who are emotionally unavailable, whatever the pattern is. If we can't shake it and drop it, it kept coming back to irresolution from the past. And I saw that in my own life too. There was a point in my late 20s where I was dating someone and his ex came back into the picture

and he was trying to decide whether to go back into the relationship with her, stay in the relationship with me. And like cue me coming in. I was like, totally. like, I really understand, this must be so hard for you. Yuck. Like when I say it now, I'm like, oh, she was like, right.

You know, it's like so painful to cure that part of me. And part of that is like who Vienna was and also the therapist in me that's like, context. Everybody's got a hard story. Like, I get it, right? And I could understand anything. But it was really connected to the little girl in me who had gone through what she had gone through and was like flying under the radar, pretending like she was fine with everything, because

there wasn't room for me to not be fine, because my parents were so not fine. And so I really coasted through life, like, I'm good, I'm fine. I was the cool girl. I was unaffected by everything. And I thought that that's what was attractive and what would keep relationships. And I didn't want to be a disruptor in any way. And I remember being in a conversation with a friend and it all just clicked in that I was in the same role that I had been in my entire life through childhood and before and that I was still in this space where I was like, unaffected and fine when I was really bothered and hurt and in pain. It was really not something that was respectful of me.

And it was such a big shift for me to say, and I finally did for the first time, to actually say like, I am affected, I am bothered, this is not okay for me. And I think for people who don't have a problem saying that, it probably sounds really simple, but for people who have never actually been able to say something like that, it was really life-changing.

And that's not hyperbolic. It was like life changing for me to be able to say, I'm not okay with this. And so full circle, right? Like I wrote this book because I know that, you know, some people go to therapy. Amazing. We love that. But we also know that so many people don't or people want to do that in the privacy of their own homes or they want to digest this information in a different way.

And I wanted to write a book that anybody could read and hopefully find themselves in. And I really like to write through storytelling. And I think sometimes it is harder to see ourselves when somebody's just, asking us direct questions, but sometimes when you read about somebody else's story, you're like, ooh, I see myself there, or I see my partner in this person. And so, yeah, I want people to live into the life and relationships that they say they want, but we have to understand what's keeping us from it first. So that's what this book is about. I mean, thank you for sharing that so much. We see that with people we know and just this like refusing to admit to yourself that you were

affected by your parents' divorce, for example, or whatever it may have been. And I've said to It's like I think of this one person in particular where I just feel like he doesn't want to like rip open those wounds and bleed out. You know, just to be like a gross metaphor. But it's like I think people are like, I'm fine. I am in a good marriage. I'm functional. I'm successful. Right.

Like I'm okay in the world. And I think that is one of the scariest things is that if I'm going to go back there, I'm going to open it up. I'm going to open up Pandora's box. What am I going to find? It's going to be so overwhelming. Yeah. We have so many stories like our parents did the best that they could or their parents were so. much worse to them than how they were to meet.

There's so many storylines that we can cling to. And whether those things are true, it actually doesn't matter because it becomes a distraction away from acknowledging our story. And that piece is so vital. No matter how much you can describe

or explain away what happened, other people have it worse. My friends have it way worse than I do. I call it in comparison. Those are distractions. Those are things that help us avoid actually being with what our story is. It's interesting that somebody like you could even say, like I wasn't affected by it,

because the story that you opened the book with, and you guys should read it, is basically that you had a lot of volatility in the home and a lot of screaming, and you opened the book with the story of how you and your mom were hiding from your father in this closet, and he was there with the police looking for you.

And I feel like emotional, like this child was like so terrified and you corrected this by saying, like, I don't need to be validated, I don't need to be heard. Your guys's problems are worse than mine. I'm never going to be the problem here. You guys have enough problems. And to think that that didn't affect you your entire life is crazy.

Yeah. But you didn't even know that that was really a problem for you until a certain age. Totally. Yeah. Like I had become so good at blocking that out and just protecting myself from it. And I think, of course, when you hear that story, anybody, I mean, you would hope that anybody would be able to have compassion for that child and think like, oh, my God, that's so scary.

That's undeniably going to affect this person. And I remember, I share it in the book, the split where my dad is at the front door. and I'm in the closet with my mom and I'm like, I feel very split in that moment where I'm like, it's like, Dad, I'm here, you know, but also mom, I have to, you know, and I think so many of us, right, we grow up in these family systems

where we're just trying to figure it out, little humans, like, and sometimes our wounds come later in our teenage lives, you think about little humans just like, okay, like, how do I make everybody happy? How do I make sure that there's peace in the family? How do I, like, make sure that I fit in with you? Who do I need to be for you to like me

and validate me and appreciate me and love me and be kind and calm around me, right? And we're constantly in this adaptation. You know, if we don't have mature parents, we are constantly in a place of adaptation. And it's survival, right? Like there's this quote that I share, a friend and colleague of mine says that our pain

and our gifts are next door neighbors. I love that thought, right? Because so many people are like, I wouldn't be who I am today without the story. And that even though that is objectively correct, we're either going to be motivated by our pain or we're going to be motivated by our healing. We don't lose our gift just because we heal. I can't emphasize how important it is for us to go back into these spaces and really

like witness the, for me it was witnessing the little girl who, you know, really didn't have space to feel and not be okay. I didn't like they might, if they were here, they'd probably say like, no, of course there was room for you to not be okay. It didn't matter what was true. Right. Right. My perception of the dynamic and the experience was that there wasn't room for me. And so I lived with that all the way through and I had never made room for myself. Right. And that was really the like catalyst and shift was how do I make room for myself to actually feel what is truly there and like trust that I or someone else is going to be able to hold what that is. So maybe you, do you want to just define original healing work? Yeah. So, okay, so the book is called The Origins of You. And why that title was like, for me, it's very important for us to understand the first.

The first time there's a rupture in our belief around our worthiness. The first time we don't feel like we belong. The first time we don't feel like a priority. The first time we don't feel a sense of trust. And a first time we don't feel safety, emotional, physical, sexual, psychological, mental, right? And these first, to me, it sets the trajectory of our lives once there is a rupture in that. And so some people will say, I don't remember the first, right? And if we have trauma, that's very common that you're not going to be able to remember, like, why I respond this way.

I don't know what the story is. Okay, that's fine. But you want to at least go back to the last or maybe the first time that you do remember. So even if you're like, I'm sure there's something earlier on in life, don't worry about it. Sometimes people get lost, like looking at age four, or five and six when it's age 17, you know. Like sometimes you might have had a really safe upbringing, but the rupture and safety happened when you were 25, right? So I really want people, even though obviously my book is very focused on the family system that we grew up in. I still don't want people getting lost being like, oh, well, nothing happened in my childhood. So there must not be any wounding there.

There is wounding there no matter what your story is, no matter how great it is, because we have imperfect families. We have imperfect humans in our lives. They will let us down. They will disappoint us. They will hurt us. Sometimes they'll harm us. And, you know, that's what we're having. to really address. And so to me, it's like origin healing work is about reconnecting to whatever

it is that you do have access to. And sometimes these ruptures will happen with an acute event, like a really big thing that breaks something. And other times it might be something where it's a repeated thing that keeps tarnishing it. Right. So like, for example, a worthiness wound could come from a parent leaving, abandoning, and the way that you, in terms of, internalize it is that, okay, you left because I wasn't good enough for you to stick around. But a worthiness wound could also come from subtly realizing that your dad treats you very differently when you have performed well in sports, right? Like, he's kind to you. He's giving you attention, validation. But when you're not performing well there, then he's cold or disconnected, right? And so a lot

of times, like, it's like, where's the conditional love coming in or the conditional attention coming in? So I give those examples because sometimes it can be this big acute thing that happens. And other times it's just like this thing that repeats over and over again that you internalize as meaning that I am only good enough when I am perfect. I'm only good enough when I'm pleasing. I'm only good enough when I'm performing. And when I'm not doing those things, I'm not valuable to people. Or like you have to earn their life.

Yeah. Yeah. Like my dad, when I was a good girl and like behaved and showed up in the way that he liked, then he was really present. and connected and helpful. But when I was difficult and by difficult loosely, like being a teenager, it wasn't anything outrageous,

I would get the silent treatment for days, weeks on end. And it was a really like hard form of punishment. And I think it was something where, you know, again, it reiterated that the love and the presence and the attention and the help was conditional based on how I was showing up with him. Yeah. So there's five rules that you sort of identify.

Yeah. So what, like, what buckets are there? Okay, okay. So the first one that I go over is the worthiness wound. So obviously it was just sharing a little bit about that. I'm convinced really that like I think everybody probably has some. I was just going to say is that the most prevalent. It is. I put out a quiz, a free like what's your primary origin wound quiz. And predominantly with the worthiness wound was number one for people. And yeah, like I think there were over 40,000 people who had taken the quiz was like, oh yeah, okay. Yeah, this checks off. And so yeah, like I was saying for the please or. the perfectionists out there, the performers, the comic reliefs, you will often see a worthiness wound there where it's like the conditional part of the relationship is that if I'm pleasing you, if I am making you happy, if I'm perfect in the way that you see perfection, then I'm going to get connection, closeness, attention, validation, attachment, love, et cetera. If I am funny, then you stop hurting my sister. If I am quiet or non-confrontational,

then you and mom stop arguing as much. And so it's just seeing where the worthiness, it really does tend to be in a lot of conditional relationships growing up. Okay. I wonder if that's sort of like how I grew up. There was just a lot of screaming in my house and being told everything I did was terrible and didn't matter how much I cleaned my room

and did my chores and did my homework. And I was like a pretty good kid. I didn't really do drugs. I wasn't having sex. But like there was always something wrong with me. There was always like something to pick on and tell me that like things that I didn't even realize were wrong with me were also wrong with me.

Yeah. So it was just very stressful because I was just like, all right, what am I going to get hit with next? Yeah. Right. Constantly waiting for that to happen. And I think like statements of harm, which obviously can fall under, you know, a safety wound too with, you know, verbal abuse or something like that. But you will find that inworthiness too because it's like, why can't I be good enough? Like no matter what it is that I'm doing, you're finding something wrong with it.

And so I'm just not a good enough kid, a good enough this, a good enough that. And it really like, you know, I don't know what your experience was, but I think it wears people. people down and yeah, like how we relate to our worthiness in the world and like how we see ourselves as valuable. Yeah, it's tarnished. The conditional love thing is interesting. I watched Hassan's most recent, both special. I want to get Hassan and Minaj. Like it's like I love it. Minage like Nikki, but it's Hassan, not Hassan. Anyway, so Hassan special. And you just, the first special, Homecoming King is a lot about feeling like immigrant parents feeling like you have conditional love. And it's funny, but it's really, you know, there's truth in it. And I feel like a lot of children of immigrant

parents have that feeling. And there's so much comedic content about it. But there's still that part of like it's just different when you, you know, parents come to America and they have all these expectations of you and you feel like you have to do these things to earn their love. Right. And it's like, what is the impact for each person, right? Like, how does it get internalized? And I also think the contrast, especially when you have immigrant families, because now they're moving, right? And so now you're seeing yourself in comparison. So if you've moved to America, let's say, right, it's like you are around American families. It's like when you see the contrast, right, of like, oh, this is what it's like here culturally. I was just having a conversation with somebody else who moved. When she came to America, she saw how all of the American parents were with the children. It was so different than what her culture was. And I thought that it was interesting to be like, oh, the contrast in the culture when you see it. so clearly, right, is like what that communicates to you and then how you internalize it. I think it's so interesting you're saying like intention versus impact because the intention there

is have a better life than I have. Be successful. Money brings happiness. Yeah. So find happiness through money and success, but the impact is often very different. This is such a perfect setup though for there's one client that I share in the book and it's in the prioritization chapter. And this is a perfect example because he has a single mom who's working multiple jobs and And the time that they get together is they go to church on Sundays and then they get to have brunch

afterwards. And he loves and respects his mom so much. Right. She is working so hard in order to give him a better life than she had. Right. And he can sit there and he can rationalize this week after week after week. And the love and respect is so clear to me. But what was still there was a lack of prioritization, the way it is internalized for him.

Right. And so yes, he could sit here and be like, well, but the way that she's working in all of these multiple jobs, like that is her way of priority. me. True. Right. And I still wanted to feel prioritized by having more time with her. Totally. Period. Yes. Both things are true. Yes. And like when you can start to hold the multiples, right? Like really what we call the both and, right, is like when you can do that, which I think is very important for this work, because we're not here to bash parents. We don't have to hate them. We don't have to throw them under the bus. We don't have to villainize them. We don't have to walk that path. But we do have to hold, okay, context, right? Because they were tiny little humans. once before two who have a complicated history, we're sure of that. And also adults who misstepped and impacted us. And that's the keys, like finding that perfect middle space of,

okay, you're a human with a history and a story. I can hold and respect and see a lot of those pieces. And I'm a human with a story who needs to heal too, right? Who has to be able to acknowledge the pain that is there. Because if I can't, then I can't move forward. Right. And then the patterns, right, keep coming. So, okay, back on track. Worthiness with everyone is probably like, God damn it, that is me. That is me. Everyone's feeling this. Okay, they're belonging. Belonging. Second wound. A lot of families have this, um, feel to them. I don't know if you, if you grew up this way where the, like, your family was like, this is how we do things. You know, this is like how we operate. This is what we

believe. This is how we act in the world. And sometimes we feel that more significantly and sometimes we don't, right? But it's like, if you don't, act or think or behave or look or be in the way that we are and we do, then you're out, right? And whether the outness is like actually a pure rejection of the child or whether it's more subtle and, you know, passive aggressive, right? But there's a real like requirement of adaptation there that happens to fit in with the family. It's like the example to me is as someone who like spent a lot of time in the South is like that type of family. This very like southern, traditional, you know, white, straight, Christian, everything.

You know, like, this is how we do things. This is how we present ourselves. This is what we believe in. This is what our politics are. This is the age you're supposed to get married and start a family and where you're supposed to live. And like, yeah, and then someone tries to buck against it. And it's like, yeah, exactly.

New York City. Right. Become a Yankee. It's like this, well, you're not accepted because this is not the way we are. This is not who we are. That's just like an example of mine. Because I live in that world. Yeah.

It's a beautiful example of. of it. Maybe you're familiar with Dr. Gabor Mate, and he talks about how, like, for kids, basically our two lifelines are attachment and authenticity. Okay. Right. And if attachment is threatened, we will trade authenticity every single time because survival, right? We must, right? So what happens is we lose our authenticity in order to have a safe base, right, in order to have our secure, quote unquote, attachment. And so we become a little less than or a little more of this or a little bit of that in order to fit into the system, right? And so, you know, a lot of times the black sheep of the family, for example, is someone

who'd be like, yeah, I have a belonging wound, right? Like anybody who's ever felt othered. And you know, obviously this is also culturally important too, right? It's like, you know, when people feel othered, when people feel different, it doesn't always generate from the family system, but it absolutely can. And so if there's anybody who's like, I feel so different, I feel othered. I don't feel like I fit in with anyone. I am the black sheep. Oftentimes we're going to find a belonging wound there. Okay.

Got it. Okay. She's like, this is painful. No, I feel in my stomach and I know a lot of people that like fit in these, but we all do. Of course. I mean, all of us, right? Like, all of us have either one or multiple wounds. I have people who are like, is it possible to have all five? Yes. You can. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so the prioritization wound,

what it sounds like, but you're going to see that with maybe a parent who was a workaholic, maybe that there was a ton of conflict in the family. And so the conflict became the focus. Maybe you grew up with a sibling who had mental health challenges and the parents were really focused on the sibling or there was an illness in the family. A lot of times with these wounds, it doesn't have to be because our parents and the adults in our lives were like malintended and awful. Sometimes it's just circumstantial. Sometimes it happens because a parent has cancer and that's the focus. And so you as a kid don't get a lot of the attention or you're not able to be prioritized in the way that you would have liked to or the way that you would have needed to.

And I think that's important to realize, like, we're not just like, oh, these enemy adults in our lives who are all for a really good circumstantial at times and we can still be left with these wounds. Right. Addiction. That can be the priority in a family's life and the child isn't getting the, you know, no time and attention, you know, that they need. So, yeah, prioritization wound. Okay. Sometimes you'll see that present day. Like, if you are someone who tries to prioritize everyone, and people are like, what does it look like in adult life, right?

And it can be like, oh, you keep... How it looks in adult life. Yeah, it's like you keep choosing people who don't prioritize you. Maybe you had an alcoholic parent, and now you've chosen someone who, like, I don't know, plays video games every night for hours and hours and you don't feel prioritized in the relationship. Or you become someone who just prioritized.

just prioritizes everyone around you as a way to try to get them to prioritize you. I've seen this with a couple of people I know with their siblings had some pretty serious mental issues growing up. And so, yes, by comparison, that sibling needs a lot more. But it doesn't stop you from feeling like, but I'm here too. I'm here too. You don't know as a kid. How are you supposed to know as a kid? You don't. Your brain isn't formed enough to realize that. So all you know is that you feel less prioritized and you don't understand why. Right. And you probably wouldn't have those words for it at the time. Right. But I think what's like what is so important important about all of this is like these wounds, if we don't go in to acknowledge them, then the pain

in the wound finds clever ways to present us again and again and again with, it might be different relationships, different scenarios, right? Like the context of what you might be going through is going to be different, but it's going to keep pointing you back to your resolution around the wound. We talk about how two things can be true at once. Like, yeah, my sibling might have needed more actual attention than I did, but that didn't mean that my needs. cease to exist. Of course. No. Yeah. And when we're kids, we just survive our way through it. You know what I mean?

Like, we just get to the other side. We're not sitting there being like, it's time for me to grieve that my parent couldn't shit. Yeah. It's like we just white-knuck. You go to our liberal arts college. You moved to New York like a normal person. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Trust. So when there is deceit, betrayal,

lies, family secrets are a big one. There's a lot of family secrets that, you know, get withheld when information is withheld. But the betrayals, right? Like, obvious ones could be affairs, infidelity that happens in a family. Sometimes the trust rupture isn't directly to you, but it might be something that you're observing. So I've had clients where they've told me that a parent has taken out credit cards in their name, or, you know, they've used their information for their own benefit or somebody who's gambled away a college fund, like things like that where there's a betrayal that happens or deceit that happens or you find out later that, and these are extreme cases, of course, but a client where, her mother wasn't actually her mother and her aunt was and there was like a flip of those things, these family secrets that come out. And we have these massive ruptures in our lives that make us

really question whether or not we can trust people and or like the people who are meant to hold our best interest and protect us in mind. I always say with a trust wind and a safety wound, when they often go hand in hand because it's hard not to have safety ruptured when there's a trust rupture and vice versa. And it often creates hypervigilance in the person. So if you have a trust wound or a safety wound, you will often exist in the world hypervigilantly. Like, constantly scanning. It could be with an emphasis on control. It can be you having to like search or look over your shoulder. You're constantly waiting for the second shoe to drop, right? It's like you are in a state of scanning your environment and looking out for what you think is

going to ultimately be a trial. So you are more distrustful. It usually manifests in that way. It can be. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then, yes, with safety, even though I grouped it in a little bit with trust, right? Like when we're talking about a safety wound, we are often talking about the presence of abuse. So it's a tender chapter. And I tell people to take good care of themselves when they're reading that. But we have to look at physical, sexual, psychological, mental, emotional, financial abuse, negligence, recklessness. And, you know, growing up in environments where you were put in situations that, you're put in, I always think about the absence of safety is like your well-being, you know, your, yeah, your overall

safety, somebody's not actually thinking about protecting you and making sure that you're, you know, respected and protected. And then, I mean, a security, like a synonym essentially, just like I picture, maybe there is a single parent, for example, that, you know, you're always moving around, moving from place to place, you know, like renting here, renting there, trying to make ends meet, living paycheck to paycheck. You know, you're going to different school every year, like that lack of, like, security. Yes. Yeah, security and stability.

Absolutely. I had a partner that grew up with extreme abuse. And I remember Ashley saying to me because I was like, I don't understand how he acts in situations. She was like, you and I don't start from a baseline of not feeling safe. Yeah. And so, like, it is interesting when you become an adult and you meet a partner like that because you're like, your baseline for just feeling safe day to day in the world,

emotionally, physically is not the same as mine. Right. Yeah. I had a partner in my past as well that just a lot of that. And he grew up very like people pleasing need to be a good kid. You know, he never really got in trouble. And it was like just that constant. Like I have to be a good boy.

I have to be like a good kid. You know? And then it like really came out a lot later in life. And it was just like the floodgates opened. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And I think he was someone that didn't think he was as affected as he was.

And then he would tell me stories and I would be like in tears. Like thinking about like the little boy that had to deal with this like abuse, trauma, lack of security. And, you know, his one parent who raised him like never wanting to say a bad word because they did the best they could. It was like all the things you're saying. And it was a really strained relationship. It was really tough. I did not have the tools to handle it at that time. I just wasn't equipped. I was triggering him constantly. And then I'm like walking in eggshells. I mean, it was a mess. It can also feel really easy to feel controlled in a relationship like that.

Yeah. So obviously it didn't work out. Is this the last one? Yeah, we went through the five. Okay. Let's just say him again. Worthiness, belonging. Priorities. trust and safety. Emotionally and physically. Okay. So the next sort of part of the book, the bulk of the book, is original healing practice and this four-step practice and how you can kind of look beyond your presenting problems, see the real issues at play, and make better decisions.

So that's really broad. We all have a million issues as adults and relationships. But maybe we can just start to talk about this concept and changing your relationship behaviors. Yeah. So in my work, I have never seen people heal without naming where our pain is. without witnessing that pain, without grieving. Like, those things, they have to be a part of this work. And then we have a chance to pivot.

That's what I call it with the four steps. And I believe that the way that we heal is as many ways as there are humans on the planet. Right. Like, I'm not somebody who's like, you fit into this structure. And these are the things that you do. And then when you get to the other side of this, like, you're going to be healed. Like, that's not what I believe. But what I can tell you is that these parts have got to be a part of it.

And if you are not looking at your family of origin and your family, like, that to me, when I hear people who are like, oh, I've been in therapy for five years. And like, I've never talked about my family. I'm like, oh, fire your therapist. You're just like, wait, what? That's all I talk about. What do you mean? That's a crazy statement.

Sorry, but that's wild. Right? It is wild. And there are plenty of people who have. And it's like, this has to be a part of the conversation. So we have to name the wound. We cannot minimize it. We cannot invalidate it.

we have to stop with that everybody has it worse than I do or they did the best that they could. Like all of that, we can hold those things team, right? Like absolutely the both and, but you also have to name where your pain is without distorting it. It's a must. So the second part is the witnessing. And when I was growing up, when my parents were separated, I would listen in on their phone conversations. And sometimes I would pick up the phone and listen in.

Sometimes I'd like perch myself at the top of the stairs and try to get a sense of what was going on. And that was important to me because they both would tell very different stories. And so I really wanted to understand what the truth was, right? Wow. And I remember needing to really close my eyes and think of myself at that age. And I usually picture me at like 7, 8, 9. And it was so important, like for the witnessing piece.

And, you know, people can do this differently. But I do like to close down my eyes. And I usually lead people through a process where they close, close down their eyes and they sort of visualize that age of themselves, whatever it is that comes to mind. And usually people have like a spot where they're like, yeah, I usually think of myself at 10 or 6 or whatever. And I just would close my eyes and get closer to her, like watching her on the top of the steps perched there as a little girl listening to what she was listening to. And it was just bringing a lot of compassion to myself for having to go through that, you know,

really just witnessing what that must have been like for a little girl who was really confused and scared and overwhelmed by what she was hearing and that she should never have been in that position. And I think there's something to just seeing it from self to self, but as the observer, you know? And I remember, like, I had to do that over and over and over again. And when I talk about grieving, it's the authentic natural expression of the emotion that just comes forward when you. you do that practice. And so sometimes you cry, sometimes you don't, sometimes you're angry, sometimes you're not, right? Like, it can look a lot of different ways, but it's a release of emotion that is authentic when you are actually in the act of witnessing what it was like to go through that origin pain. And, you know, that is so important because people come into theory because they're like, here's what's going on right now and like it needs to change usually, right?

People are, sometimes they'll come in and be like, there's this thing from very long ago that I really want to process. But most of the time people are coming in because they're in a rock bottom moment. They've just gone through an ending of a relationship. They're in a conflict that they can't, you know, get through, whatever, right? And so they're focused on present day. And to loosen present day, we really have to just have this historical information of self. And if you're in a relationship of the other person, right? we have to understand our inside worlds.

And when we do that, we have such a better chance at moving through communication differently, moving through conflict differently, moving through boundaries differently, and just like navigating our relationships in a much better way. Okay.

Yeah. You're like, prove it. No, I love that. No, because you talk in the book about the presenting problem. Yes. And that that's not often like the real issue. I like the phrase,

the presenting problem. Okay, so then the next step in the process would be... Okay, yeah. So, yes, I kind of like, like put them all together actually, right? Because so, yes, you have to one name, identify what the pain is, what the wound is. You then need to witness. Okay. Then third is grieving and then fourth is pivoting. And the pivot, you know the very well-known quote that's attributed to Victor Frankel about like between stimulus and response. There is a space and in that space there's this opportunity to like essentially

walk ourselves towards freedom. And the work of identifying. And the work of identifying, witnessing and grieving does is it gives us more space in the pause. So when we're in the conflict, when we're in the pattern, when we're choosing something or acting in a certain way, when we have done the work

of naming our pain and witnessing it and grieving, it extends our ability because we're not just in this reactive place anymore. We've done so much work to extend where we're like, oh, I know what's familiar about this moment. Because when we don't know what's familiar about the moment,

then we're just in a power struggle, then we're just proving our point, then we're just needing to be right. We're racing to that, right? Instead of racing to like, what's familiar about this? What do I know about this? I'm activated in this moment because there's something historical here.

And also for my partner or a friend or a colleague or whomever I'm having the thing with. And so when we do this work, it extends that space so that we can behave differently, use our words differently, navigate conflict differently, choose a boundary that we normally wouldn't place or lift a boundary that we'd normally have way up too high. Right. And so like all of this work helps us in those moments

where we're trying to do the thing differently than we would do it before. Right. So I guess the pivot is the most interesting thing to me because you wrote this thing in the book. When you notice you're falling into old patterns, get into the habit of asking yourself certain questions. So you can process what's happening at a, different manner than you usually do. It's not longer good enough to know why you chose the same type of partners over and over or know why you react the way you do. So like I guess like how do we pivot

and should we use like a couple of these scenarios? But also like I love that you pulled that quote because it's so true and I say it so lovingly but like knowing why you do what you do, right? We don't care anymore. You know what I mean? Like at a certain point you can't be like, oh yeah, like I am this way because my dad treated me, you know, X, Y and Z. It's like, yeah, those connections of the dots are really important, but guess what? If you keep treating your partner this way, you might not have a partner. You don't even like, it makes sense, but now we have to become accountable, right? Like our behavior and their behavior, right? We now have to become accountable to it. If I give an example, I think this would be very helpful. In the beginning of

my relationship with Connor, I was jumping really quick. I just want to say for people listening, I think that would be fun for them to connect the dots if they don't know that Connor beating, who's been on the show twice, is your husband. That's all I want to say. There's some people listening. It's weird. I haven't brought it up. I was going to do it in the end because I'm just like, I want people listening to be like, oh my God, how cool.

Like there's definitely people that don't know that. And now they're like, yeah, he's had two incredible episodes that were like, you know, their top top downloads inside the male mind one and part two. So anyway. So, okay, in our relationship, this was before we were married, we were in a conflict. I don't know what we were fighting about, but I kept like going and needing to prove my point and needing to be right. And he would like bless him because he was like,

I got it. I understand. You know, like, he got it. And I just doubled down and tripled down. I just kept going. And I had this out-of-body moment where I was like, oh, my God, being like, shut up. You know, like, he's already excited. Like, enough. Eventually, it stopped. And then I entered into a little bit of a shame spiral and was like, oh, like, that was really unattractive. And I don't know if you don't want to be with me. You know, like, just all of the questioning. I moved out of the shame space very quickly, though, and replaced it with curiosity. What does it serve for me to be right? What about being right is protective? Okay, a little bit of digging work. It doesn't take very long.

I grew up with a father who was, you know, really manipulative with my mom and like gaslit her constantly. Never did it to me, but it was something that I observed over and over and over again. And it was very crazy making for her. And I watched this day in and day out. And what I realized was that for me, being right, he was always right, she was always wrong. being right meant safety you know it was control it was power but it really was about feeling safe because feeling crazy right I saw its impact on her and that was unsafe and so for me it meant that if I was wrong it would mean that I was unsafe and if I was right it would mean that I was safe and that was so

important for me to understand and it's like what you're pulling at is that guess what I can't just keep being right in every relationship. Like, I can't just keep proving my point constantly and invalidating other people because that's not going to go very far. But I also can't just sit here and be in shame about how I'm acting. I have to get curious about, like, no, this behavior makes sense if I had the context and I understand the story. And when I can understand that story and then I can spend some time doing the witnessing

and grieving of it, then I can choose to engage with people differently. And that's why it's like to know is not enough, right? To know why I'm that way? great. It lit off some light bulbs and that was fantastic and it was a really important conversation for Connor and I to have, but it was also not enough because the pivot and the behavior needed to happen. So I appreciate you pulling that. For you, it's important to know. But for your partner, it's like, yes, and, like, who cares why you're like, well, I don't want to be treated like this? I didn't do that to you. I mean, Connor speaks so highly to be of a great marriage. But I think me as the partner,

I'm like, well, I understand why you don't feel safe. But like, why am I being punished for? that and how can I react better to this? Yeah. Like that was a thing with an ex of mine. It's like it was great that he could. Yes. Identify why he would lash out at me, but it can't just, how do we feel? It doesn't end there. Yeah.

Like that's the first step. Yes. Look, it helps to know these things because it does give us compassion for, you know, the people in our lives. But absolutely, it's like we have to start to shift and knowing is not enough. The doing is what allows us to write new endings. And, you know, it's like I get to have the life or the relationships and engage. in these relationships and life in a way that is different than I've been doing. All of these things are self-protective.

All the behaviors that we do, they're all self-protective, right? So we know that they're still protecting something. That's the quest. What are you still protecting? You know, because that's the thing that needs more care and attention. And when we can give it more care and attention, then we don't have to protect it as vehemently. If we don't have to protect it as vehemently,

then we don't have to behave in these ways that we've learned are protective, but also generally really disconnective. It's interesting because I think, you know, not really much of the wounds resonate with me. I'm not really trying to brag. I just have a really secure appearance are really wonderful. I felt really secure. But I almost felt like I just had like my dad and their relationship and just on such a pedestal like to the point of like perfection. And, you know, I would say that I probably wounded them more.

I always joke than my like, I don't daddy issues, but my dad has daughter issues. Like it just was like really tough. But like I think for so long it just was like my expectations were so high. and I was like unwilling to ever let anyone let me down and everything had to be perfect. And I think that over the years I really had to realize that like my dad's not perfect. I mean, they have a wonderful marriage, but she's opened up to me about some things that I'm like,

yeah, that's not great. And, you know, they've been married for 45 years. They have ups and downs. But I think that just realizing like people are human, as am I, you can't hold people to such a high standards. I just felt like my expectations were a little too unrealistic. Your expectations are high. You grew up with a really wonderful,

family. I mean, nobody's family's better than yours, but you have a high level of perfectionism. You like to be right. You do not want to have words put in your mouth. You know exactly what you want. All the time. Like you have a level of like stability that you like. And maybe that's because you grew up with like such a wonderful family life. You're just like, I know what perfection looks like and I like it. But it was almost I felt for a while like to a fall. Yeah. Well, it also sounds like there was a time where you were really inflexible with it too. Right. Yeah. It almost makes it so that you have to be really control. of other people where it's like unless you are this way, then it's not good enough.

Yes, I have worked on it. It doesn't feel like that now. But I think, you know, we all realize things about our family and, you know, where you're like, okay, yeah, my dad's a human. He's not a superhero, you know? And it was just kind of like, he never let me down. So like a boyfriend better not ever not show up, not let me down, not be the perfect man that everyone's like, you know, that's, that's really hassle time. Like, I don't know. So it was just, it was just, just like, no, it's a great example because I think there's other people who maybe feel similarly to the way that you do. And when I have these conversations with people who, and like, yeah, surprise, like, guess what, there are some really good families out there. You know, it's like,

not everybody has to have this, you know, awful, terrible story. But I think sometimes it is around the, I want the relationship that I saw or it is put on such a pedestal. And I think when there is something that is put on a pedestal, it means that we are beneath it and we're trying to get up there. And it's like, am I good enough unless I have a similar relationship to the one that my parents do? Right. You know, and so to think about the ways in which it was internalized and then how do we treat people in our quest to get there? Right. If someone like makes a quote unquote mistake.

Yeah. There's no tolerance for it. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Like a lack of tolerance, I guess, in general. You saw your dad at a certain level and then your brother also followed suit. Your brother's like a very stand-up guy and a wonderful husband. Do you think it's hard because you look at other men in relationships and you're like,

well, it was easy for them. Like, do you feel like it has dropped your tolerance level for other people because you're like, the people around me are wonderful. That's what I'm saying. Like the bar was really high. Like it was just kind of like, you can't fuck up around me. You know, I'm not saying that that's what I felt, but I've come to realize, like, in my past, that was like what was happening here.

It was like the red flags like fly up the second. I feel like someone isn't showing up or doing what they say they're going to do. And I still have a high bar for it. And I'm with a wonderful partner who, just makes me feel secure and shows up. But I mean, we say all the time, we say all the time... I'm really lucky. I'm really blessed.

We say about each other all the time. One of the most important things in our business is when somebody says they're going to do it, they do it the highest possible level of their ability. That is what keeps us feeling secure in this relationship too. But I don't want to be... Rain and I have dealt with this too as a partnership.

I don't want to be this person. Like, you can't fuck up around me. You know, like everybody fucks up. Like everybody makes mistakes. We're all human. We go through tough times. Like I just have really had to like, you know, loosen the reins, realize this about myself, realize it like where it comes from and adjust.

Yeah. You know. One of the things that's so important for all of our relationships is learning and knowing and trusting that we can go through hard things together. I think sometimes when you grow up in a family system where you don't have to go through hard things that much, like you don't learn that. You know, you don't necessarily know how to get through the hard, the disappointment, and where you learn, like, okay, there's some flexibility here.

And yes, people are human. And yes, there is a way to get through a hard thing with this person and get to the other side. And I think sometimes it's not about like, oh, we should set your bar really low. But there is something about flexibility and tolerance that is really important of, like, trusting that we can go through hardship because there will be hardship that comes. And hopefully not a lot of it, but you are going to face chapters in life where things will be more challenging than, you know, they have been. And so I think that's, it sounds like you've had really good reflections about what the impact actually of the absence of that is on the way that you have expected people to show up in your life.

Well, that's interesting because, you know, Rain and I talk about people who just have never really had any problems. And I would say also, like some of the, my stuff is from just being younger, feeling like, boys didn't like me or feeling insecure about my looks or things like that. I think like those things always still come up. But Ray and I talk about people like go through life. They've always been attractive. They've always been good at sports. they've always been well liked. Nothing's better happen.

No parent, nobody's ever died. Like, we're like zero hardship. Like, nothing's ever been a challenge. And it's like, how, when something does happen, are you equipped to deal with it? Right. Like, really, like, I just, we talk about that. And also, we feel like it doesn't really make you

that interesting dynamic of a person. Really empathic. You're really not prepared for something tough. You know, like at least you can look at hardships, like you said, is like, at least I'm prepared for real life. To move through this stuff. And also, like, I mean, just picking on what you just said, though,

you know, what I was saying, of course, is like we look in the family system, but we also look outside of it, school, sport, you know, it's like coaches and teachers and other kids and like, you know, so when you were saying, maybe feeling a little insecure growing up, it's like, that has an impact, right?

Even though you might have felt really loved and secured and all the things within your family of origin, you know, like you might have struggled with something elsewhere. Absolutely. And that might be for some listeners too. We talk about this all the time, like the way your friends made you feel or that you weren't well liked enough, if you weren't pretty and you just like all this stuff sticks with you.

As soon as you said authenticity versus assimilation, I thought about high school girls. And it's just like everything that you wanted to do, I think a lot of girls prioritize being popular over those things. Like my hobbies are nerdy. I just won't do those things. Reading a book isn't cool. I just won't read books. I just want to be pretty.

Let me starve myself until I'm a size zero so I can fit in with the pretty girls. And it doesn't matter what you want to do assimilating. That's so true. like I quit the band because it wasn't cool. And like I threw my flute into the tree so I wouldn't have to bring it to band practice. And like they were calling the house and I finally was like, it was a huge fight in the house that I was quitting this thing that I was so good at because it wasn't cool. And not that I, you know, today I don't wish I played the flute.

But like there's things like it wasn't cool to be smart when I was a kid. I really wanted to not do those gifted classes at one point. I told my mom I was quitting. She's like the fuck you are. Like you say it like that. But like those things like, thank you. Thank God she made me. Yes.

I think some of that stuff is cooler now, but when we were growing up, no, it was not cool. If you were a nerd, if you were really smart, or if you were in the band and all this stuff. And so I really just gave it up for that. Totally. I had no interests or hobbies in high school, and that's not because I didn't have them. Like I grew up, my mom would always say, you used to really like pottery class. And all these classes, you'd be nerdy.

That's, you go to the museum. I would take these art classes. I'd walk around the museum and learn about the paintings. And I just, I had zero interests in hobbies in high school besides. like looking pretty and boys. Yeah, it was it. Because it wasn't cool. And I don't know if I even identified it as not being cool.

I just was like, that's not what my friends are doing. That's not what I'm going to do. Well, it's not safe enough to do it. Yes. And it's not safe enough to do it. And I think today it is different. I hope. I think kids have a whole other thing to deal with with social media.

So it's like what's actually worse, probably. Today is worse. Today. All right, we've veered off. I mean, we want to still apply this more to maybe like a couple concepts. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So you pulled some quotes, right?

Yeah. So one of the things. that we pulled from your Instagram is just talking about finding partners where you put the other person on the pedestal and both people feel like they're the lucky one or like being afraid to pick a partner where you feel like you're the lucky one. Okay. So two pieces because I want to be careful about the pedestal or just because I recently... Sure. It can be negative. Yeah. I had recently said something about like when we put somebody on a pedestal, we're not revealing our admiration for them. We're revealing our insecurity within ourselves. And the quote that you're talking about, though, is like, it is right about.

admiration and respect when you think like, ah, you know, you look at your partner from across the room and you're like, yeah, like, how did I get you? Right? And not from an insecure, shame-filled place, just from a place of like respect and admiration. And I find that the people who both feel that way about each other, there's something so beautiful because it's like, oh, I earned you. Like, you know what I mean? Because it's, our partners are such a reflection back to us in many ways. And I know that can feel very confronting to hear for some people. It's a reflection to the world of yourself too. Yes. Right. And like, listen, of course I know that there are complications and there's a lot of layers in some relationships that can make it really hard to exit or, you know,

remove yourself from it. But I think these moments where you're like, oh my gosh, I admire you and I respect you so much. And I like, what? I got you? I feel so lucky. It's like, I feel so lucky. It's so beautifully said. And I think to have that feeling, I mean, it's like you're not going to feel that every day of every moment of, you know, obviously. But to overall have that feeling where you're like, yeah, respect, admiration.

I think that that's huge. I think your Instagram said like you feel like the other is a little bit out of your league. But the quote that I've always said is like where both parties feel like the lucky one. I love that. I think it's a scary thing for a lot of people, though. Because I think to feel like, oh my God, like, I can't believe you picked me. Like, I think it's a scary place to be.

if you don't feel confident. It's a scary place to be because so many people got the advice from someone at some point that said, don't be the one who loves the most. Be with somebody who loves you more than you love that. Which is be with somebody

who puts you on a pedestal. And that's not good advice. It's not good advice. I think it's gotten distorted. It's gotten distorted. There's this thing of like if you're in a stray relationship that man should love the woman a little bit more,

but I think it's gotten taken out of context because I see what that means. means to, you know, to an extent, like, not this like pedestal word, like all, yeah, that's just kind of blown up proportion. But we're not a society that uses nuance well. Right, exactly. So we've got to be really careful with our words. We hold something back and we think that only if somebody likes me more than I like them or loves me more than I love them, will I be safe in this world? And I think that that's, that piece of it is what is difficult and challenging because you're withholding something and it's a power dynamic and you're not going to

be able to have the type of relationship that I think is important for us to have, which is equal and vulnerable. So if you're the kind of person that's like I have trouble seeking out somebody that I'm really proud of that I feel like I'm so lucky to have gotten them, where does that kind of come from and how can we like have self-talk? Because that's the goal. That's the bar. You should be with somebody that you both feel like.

I can't believe I did this. Like, we talked about this with you. Like, is that the thing? Your mom says? You're, like, always just choose people who... Or a little bit beneath me, she says. Okay. I'm afraid to seek out people, she says.

And she's always said, like, they're a little beneath you. And I think that she means, like, that aren't on the same career level, but you're not... I always say, like, the most important thing to me is to be inspired by somebody

that I'm with, but I don't necessarily always pick people like that. Yeah. It is an important thing to me, but I think I am a little afraid to not be the alpha in terms of, like,

career success and money. I'm worried that like maybe somebody would be like, well, she's just not pretty enough for me or she's just not whatever, you know? I mean, listen, there's almost always a worthiness element that's present when we feel like we can't like reach for someone, right, where we avoid being the person that we think is going to be in the one down position. So I think that reveals a little bit of a worthiness piece, but also what you were just saying

is like you have created some form of safety for yourself by being financially successful and independent and, you know, like being in the alpha position. and maybe not needing to like rely on someone in any way, right? It doesn't have to just be financial, but I think that part that has like protected yourself from needing someone so that if somebody leaves or exits, like you're okay. Yeah, I think it hurts a little less maybe to be quote unquote rejected by somebody that you were like, well, that probably wasn't going to work out anyways for X, Y, Z reason.

Rather than being rejected because somebody's like she wasn't good enough for me. Yes. But that's what I mean is like the decisions and behaviors are all protective. Okay. You see? And like that's the protection is that, okay, if this relationship ends for whatever reason, but you weren't that great, like, then I'm not as hurt by it. But if it was someone I really loved and I really went for and went all in and was super vulnerable and really wanted to see this through and it ended, like that would be much more

heartbreaking and I think challenging, right? So it's, again, it's like sort of the protection of something. Just talk about this. Yeah. We just did this whole episode on why you choose emotionally unavailable people because it's so much easier when you can run the tape and be like, well, it was doomed from the start. Right. And I knew they weren't a good partner, but, you know, I did anyway. Like, it's just, it's so, it hurts so much more when you were actually all in. Totally. And then you knew it, but your friends knew, your family. Like, you just, you feel a level of like refusal to feel embarrassed, too. You know, it's like your own self- image. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Yeah. So one of your posts just said, was talking about red flags and how they are an extension of what feels familiar. So so many of us are like, right like this, right like that. Yeah.

Yeah. But if it feels familiar, maybe it isn't such a red flag, you're like, I can deal with this in this moment. Why do we find ourselves in the things that we would consider red flags? And I think like we're drawn towards certain things because they are familiar to us, right? And so like we're not so off-based to be like, oh my God, I'm, again, I see all the red flags, but I'm, I'm interested in that. Yeah, like, if you're interested in them or you feel compelled or drawn to them, right? It's like, there is something that's familiar about that. It points right back to everything that we've been talking about today, which is, yeah, it's like we need to resolve certain things so that we're not drawn into the things that are hurtful, harmful, you know, dangerous for us, whatever those red flags

might be. I don't know. What's a good example of a red flag for people? Like the emotional unavailability piece? Yeah. It's funny because we were talking to a girlfriend not too long ago. She's with this in this relationship and she's like, I know all these red flags. I'm choosing to ignore them. I was like, well, that's at least we're self-aware, you know, and it was that. It was just like not feeling prioritized and not feeling consistency from the other person. Yeah. Like engaging with red flags is actually still an opportunity for our healing. Do you know what I mean? Like when I said before, pain is really clever. Pain finds clever ways to present us with the familiar stuff so that we have to do the work that we've been talking about today. And so when we're drawn to a red flag and we're like, well, I'm just choosing to ignore it. Like, Red flags are still giving us an opportunity to heal. Okay.

You see that? Yeah. Like, I mean, it's going to be a bumpy ride, but it's like it's still giving, right? Because it cracks something open, right? Because, okay, you engage with the red flag. The person is emotionally unavailable. At the end of the day, the person's not going to choose you. The relationship's going to end.

Oh, here we go again. Right. And it's like, it brings you back to the pain again and again and again. And at some point, we're going to be ready to turn. towards it. You know what I mean? Like as opposed to just ignoring it or like, okay, I'm not going to look at the sign or I don't want to engage with it or I don't want to understand what it's trying to

reveal to me. You know what I mean? So it's like at some point we will be willing to listen and look and learn. Yeah. And then the other thing we had was feeling as though you failed or failed in quotes or quote unquote didn't try hard enough when a relationship ends.

Yeah. We love this concept too. Because I don't believe in it. Having a relationship that it's a failure because what it didn't, you didn't die together like the notebook at the end of it, you know, that's not accurate. It's so heartbreaking because so much of that shame will come from other people too.

Like sometimes we're in an okay place and then you hear people so upset and tell you that you gave up and your vows must not have meant anything and this, then, the other, right? And it's like, of course nobody goes into relationships like, can't wait for this to end. We all know that.

And I think sometimes, you know, we misjudge this that an ending is, yeah, that it just means that it is failure and that you didn't try hard enough. I think the goal would be that you gained some wisdom, you know, along the way. And listen, we know longevity and relationships is not necessarily correlated with our joy and our happiness and the connectivity. Sometimes it is, right? Like, it's incredible. Sometimes you see people who go through so many stages of life together.

I don't know if you have any elderly people in your lives who are together. And, you know, sometimes there's these like really, really beautiful, beautiful relationships that have really seen and gone through the test of time. But I think we have to get move away from this idea. And that's not an invitation to just end relationships and not work at them. Right. I think sometimes people hear that and they're like, do you not believe in trying hard? And it's like, no, no, no, of course, right? It's like not one or the other. But endings don't have to mean that you gave up. And I think it's important when people think about like why you hold such a strong belief about things like that. Like where does that come from? What did you see growing up?

Did your parents go through a divorce? What did you experience? Are you holding, clinging on to something from an ending in the past when you feel like, you know, your partner didn't fight for you at all? Or, you know, what is showing up in this moment when you're claiming something like that? Maybe it feels like a lack of control. Yes. You know, because like you were like, I can do this.

I could do hard things. I can do relationships. And when it, quote, quote, fails. You're like, but I should have been better than this. Yeah. And you said you gained wisdom. You could have gained so much more than that. Like you could have been in love.

It's like such a beautiful thing. And I think it's pretty rare, at least in my personal experience. You could have had a kid. I mean, there's just so many things that, like, can come out of a relationship that doesn't last until you both die. Totally. Did it give you joy for a couple months? Yeah.

Yeah. Learned much about yourself. Your sex life, maybe, like, so many things. Yeah. These relationships define us. That's right. The metrics for the world. The metrics need to change.

I love what you just said. Like, I learned something about myself. I learned something about a partner. I learned something that I enjoy sexually differently. Yeah. It's like these things. And here's the thing. We, like, live longer.

You know, we marry at a certain point. point, we as humans change over time. And sometimes people change together. Yeah. Okay. Amazing. And sometimes we change in different directions. And so our chapters of life with partners sometimes don't go all the way to the end, like you said. Like sometimes we do not die hand in hand in the same bed, you know, right? It's like sometimes we get to have 20 years together. Sometimes we get to have two years together. I call them our soul helpers, right? Whether people come in for a lifetime or a few years or even a few hours, right, where they like come in and change something. They change the trajectory. And I think that that's the wisdom, the nugget of, oh my gosh, I learned this part about myself.

And I think we would all do a little bit better if we could be a little gentler in this space and change up some of those metrics. I agree. Yeah, I love this. Stay here all day. I think that's a great place to wrap it up. Yeah. And people, if they want to find so much more of your content, you really have such a wealth. So thank you for being here. And maybe you can tell people where to find your podcast, your book. Yeah, totally.

Right. So the book is the origins of you. You can get that anywhere that books are sold. I'm getting more comfortable saying that when people are like, you're an author. I'm like, I'm an author. Yes, you are. You're actually an author. I'm like, okay, I'm an author.

And yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Mindful, MFT. you said before, the podcast is called This Keeps Happening, which is, it's really interesting, right? I love the time. Speaking with anonymous guests who are struggling with something and we have a one-time, like one-hour consultation and it's much harder than therapy just because I don't know them or know much about them at all. But it's really beautiful to see what, you know, when people come together to have a conversation, like what can actually be accomplished? And I'm always struck by how much gets done. So, yeah, you can listen to this keeps happening anywhere you

get your podcasts. Okay. Of course, well, you guys, check everything out that Vienna is doing. We love her so much. Hope you enjoy the episode. And of course,

you can find us at Girls Gotta Eat.com for the remaining tour tickets on our tour. Two more. Two left. There are pretty much almost there's like two tickets left.

So get them. Grab those. Girls Gotta Eat podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Hess. Raina's reina. org. And of course,

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Have a good week, guys. Bye.