Girls Gotta Eat - Unpacking Fawning, the Misunderstood Trauma Response with Dr. Ingrid Clayton

Episode Date: September 15, 2025

We've all heard of fight, flight, and freeze, but what about the fourth F of trauma responses? It's called fawning and we have Dr. Ingrid Clayon join us to discuss what it looks like (leaning in even when you're uncomfortable, needing to please), why we fawn in childhood, relationships, the workplace, etc., and how to break these patterns. We discuss how fawning compares and contrasts to people pleasing, and how fawners have trouble finding healthy relationships, saying no, recognizing their own anxiety, and being honest in therapy. And Ingrid offers advice for getting curious about the trauma responses that could be holding you back, recognizing and not sabotaging healthy partners, and speaking up when you don't like something. Before Ingrid joins us, we have a SHOW ANNOUNCEMENT, Ashley gives a family/health update, and Rayna is making new friends. Enjoy! Follow Ingrid on Instagram at @ingridclaytonphd and get her book Fawning. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for more. Thank you to our partners this week: Function: Our first 1000 listeners get a $100 credit toward your membership at https://functionhealth.com/gge or use code GGE100. Smart Mouth: Get a special discount on your next SmartMouth purchase at www.smartmouth.com/gge. ZBiotics: Get 15% off your first order at https://zbiotics.com/gge with code GGE. Rocket Money: Cancel your unwanted subscriptions at https://rocketmoney.com/gge. Saks Fifth Avenue: Head to Saks Fifth Avenue or saks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style. AG1: Get a free frother with your first purchase of AGZ at https://drinkagi.com/gge. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So basically, you know, we're talking about fawning as a trauma response. And what most of us have known for a long time is fight, flight, and freeze. This podcast is a dear media production. Hi, guys. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat. Welcome back. Big day. Big day.

We have a big announcement on the way. You know what today? 915. Wait, let me guess. I don't know. It's a birthday. It's a birthday in your life? Yes.

Stop. I don't know. I don't know if you know this one. But my sister-in-law, she's turning 30. Oh, she is. I've grown up. She's so grown up. She's mother of two.

Oh, happy birthday stuff. A 30th. A 30th. You love to see it. I will never forget her being like 25 in the house, her and your brother own. She's cooking us dinner. And I'm like, she's so much more grown than me. And I survived my filler.

I went without you yesterday. I don't like not being on the same schedule for this. And I went without you and I got a little temple filler with Dr. Barrett and I love it. But I went without you yesterday and I was sad. But we'll go back at the. end of the month. Oh, we are going to go back at the end of the month together. I've gotten my, like, my full before my wedding and my special Daxify refresh. So we're booked for the 29th, so I hope you can make it. Three p.m. It's been on my thing for a while. Okay, well, I booked you in.

Okay, well, thank you. All right, well, maybe we're done. Okay, well, let's just talk about our partners, and then we will make our announcement. Okay. Thanks to Function. Our first 1,000 listeners, get a $100 credit towards your membership at Functionhealth.com slash GGE, or use the code GGE. E100 and SmartMouth. Get a special discount on your next smartmouth purchase at smartmouth.com slash GGE. And finally, Zbiotics, get 15% off your first order at Zbiotics.com slash GGE. And thank you to RocketMoney. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions at rocketmoney.com slash GGE.E.

And Sacks Fifth Avenue, head to Sacksbeth Avenue or Sacks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style every day. And thank you to AG1. get a free, what is that supposed to say? Because this says brother. Frother. Frother? Okay.

Free brother. Okay. It was a Freudian slip. Oh my God. Pran, you've got to get these dialed in. They're not dialed. Keep this. This is an episode about your fucked up family, people.

Get a free brother. Thank you to AG1 for this days. Get a free frother with your first purchase of AGZ at drinkag1.com slash GGE. I'm like that's a free. Replace your brother with something free. Thanks for fixing my family. I got a new brother. Can I train him my brother?

Okay. Guys, let's get ready for it. Let's get ready for the announcement. Okay. Okay. We are doing. I can't look at you like that.

We are doing holiday shows in New York, in L.A. You guys, we have not done shows all year, but we could not deprive you of the holiday shows. I can't look at you like this. Ashley, if you're not watching, Ashley's wearing the Grinch hands. Grinch hands. I really tried to get a mask at time. But they just, like, grossed me out. So anyway, we do have a Grinch mask from a holiday show last year, but one of the strippers has it.

Oh, that one. Well, I think one of the strippers has it. He was like, I'm not going to... Was it that hot one that try to sleep with me? But the hottest one, has it? And then Raina is wearing a real throwback, Gigi merch. Leave his jingle bells on blue, which is a nod to Cardi B's, leave his text on red and his balls on blue. So that was probably 2018 when that song came out.

This was Christmas of 2018. Yes. When this merch came out. So we're really excited. You guys know that we would never leave you hanging. Our holiday shows are our favorite thing that we do every single year. We do it bigger, better, wilder. You can't even touch the screen, can't you, with those?

So there's going to be two holidays. I'm going to keep you guys. I'm going to keep you got it. Why don't my grinch? Because no one's going to let you touch them with that. She's like, finger somebody with that afterwards. So we're doing two shows and two nights only, you guys. So we will be in L.A. at the United Theater, December 6th, Saturday night.

And then we're coming to New York, December 13th, also Saturday night. We're taking it to Brooklyn, Bam Theater. Yes. Brooklyn Academy of Music, Bam Theater, right across the bridge. We did Brooklyn. One year we did the Bell House. Those shows were lit. And we have always wanted to mix it up. And we've done the Beacon twice, sold it out twice.

And we've done the Apollo Theater. And so we're like, what can we do that's different? And this is such a beautiful theater. We've been there, seeing people tape their specials there. And so we're super excited. And then the United Theater was formerly the ace. And we did a show there. It is stunning.

Such a great place in L.A. We made sure we had two Saturday nights. You guys can make the trip, travel for these shows. I mean, you know, we always blow it out for holiday shows. It is the one tradition we've had since the start. Since our first year, 2018, we did holiday shows, and we had a bunch of different performers and dancers and elements to it. And we're just going to do it bigger and better.

We're going to blow it out, fucking full throttle on the outfits. No boundaries. They're costumes at this point. The costumes. See what Rain is going to wear. And, you know, we share never before told stories and we have special guests. We have giveaways and gifts for you guys and dancers and music and performers. and it's just going to be epic, and we can't wait to see you there.

Yes. So you guys, mark your calendars. We're announcing it today. The tickets go on sale next week. So next Monday, September 22nd, 10 a.m. local time. So mark your calendars. Tell your friends. People travel for these shows.

They sell really, really fast. This is a tradition that people have had for many years with us. So if you've come before, we can't wait to see you there. And I just can't wait to do it. Yes. So Girls Gotta Eat.com is where the links are going to be. So you can get tickets there, set your reminders. these are probably going to go quick.

I mean, only two. We're really doing it. I'm going to be a wife. That's crazy. I think about it sometimes and just laugh. A whole-ass wife. You're going to start my husband. I'm going to be used to it.

I just can't. I mean, it's cool. It's cool to have a husband, I guess. I'll get used to it. I think about it sometimes, and I'm just like, that's so crazy. Like, I think about how excited I'm for your wedding and then I just, like, forget that you're just going to, like,

be a wife after that. So come to the shows before I start my trad wife era. This is my grand finale. No, but we are just really so excited. And so we cannot wait to see you guys there. Yeah, we can't wait you guys. I can not wait to see what you're going to wear. I can't wait to see what I'm going to wear.

I don't know who's to say. All this stuff I've been wearing, I just, I really like, last year I was like a sexy Santa and I can't do that again. So I'm sexy green. Maybe. That color, that green's not like my color. Yeah, it's like Brad green. Yeah.

How well maybe. All right, you guys just stay tuned. So that'll be on sale next week, Girls Gotteeatat.com. Yes, Girls Gotteeatat.com. And then, of course, we will be, at Lady World. You guys can also get tickets at Girls Gotta Eat.com. So those are really the three things we're doing until the end of the year.

We will be at Lady World, which is a festival in Miramar Beach, Florida, put on by Lady Gang Podcasts and a bunch of performers. It's going to be incredible. So we will be there end of September doing a show there. And then December is just, it's going to be girls got to eat December. I can't wait. I'm so excited you that. Can't wait.

So I have a personal update. My dad got a hip replacement today. Your mom just texted me back. She did. Yeah. So I just feel really emotional. This has been a long, frustrating road for our family because he's just been so stubborn about it and he's put it off. And he's tried to go every other route before doing this.

Even though it's such an easy surgery, I mean, I guess, of course, people have probably had complications. But it's one of the easier surgeries you can do. And he thought he had something wrong with his back. I mean, this has been probably two years. Like I think I was telling you about this and I was upset about this back when you lived in your old house. I remember. And, you know, he's just really had kind of lost a lot of his like physical ability in the way he walks. I mean, he's kind of been limping for quite a while now.

And it was like kind of in his back. He thought also was hip. I mean, he's needed a new hip. And he's seen so many doctors. He's gone to so much physical therapy and he didn't want to get like a back fusion surgery. And so he's really put this off until it got unbearable, honestly. And I feel like he's really lost some of his identity. He hasn't been able to ski.

He hasn't been able to be as active on the farm. I mean, he's so, so active. And he still has been. But I feel like it's been painful for him. And he's tried to manage the pain. And it's just been a really long journey and us trying to convince him. But you know, you can't convince a stubborn old man like that to do anything. And so we finally came around to it.

And he finally got the surgery today. And all went well. And I'm going to show you this video, Raina. So it's quick. You know, and I knew this because I had guy friends used to work in medical device sales. And they'll be in the room sometimes. And it's so it's quick. and easy in your home that night a lot of times.

But I did not expect this. My mom sent me this video. Look at him. He's just up. I've been telling him this. His up, new hip. He's like, they have him do this like step up thing. I mean, he's going to be walking with a walker and going to be physical therapy while he

gets used to it and everything for a couple weeks. But look at this mango. I cried when I saw this. I'm so proud of him. I know. So if you're wondering, yes, I did pull the wedding card to get him to do this. I said, you're not going to be limping me down the aisle. I just, I get really, I get really emotional when you talk about it and you and I've talked about

this offline a lot, but it's hard to see your parents get older and also reach this phase of life for like, they're also wrestling with their own demons of like my body doesn't work the way it used to. My mind doesn't work the way it used to. And I watch my dad forget stuff sometimes and he'll say like, well, I'm getting older. And it's hard to watch somebody struggle with that phase of life. And somebody like your dad who's like so physically active and he's a big guy and he's the person that like carries the suitcases and does the work around the farm. like in skis and it's really hard to accept that your identity is that you're getting older.

And I knew he'd be okay. It's Sherry, Uncle John's wife. She got a hip replacement and she was same thing up moving around. But it sounds terrifying. Yeah. And he had one friend who had a complication with the catheter. I mean, I think he just had some fears. And I think he just came to this on his own and I joke about the wedding thing.

But I do think that was important. I think he wants to walk me down the aisle and be. be able to dance with me briefly. They told him, you can't fast. They were like, you can slow dance with your daughter, but not fast dance with her. I'm like, yeah, we didn't have like a choreograph routine plan. He was dancing em, mathematics. Yeah, he'll get on the dance floor.

He has some moves. But so I think that was part of it. And maybe that was like the final moment of like he waited until the last minute until that was really. He really did. Yeah. And so he talked to enough friends and people who had it done and told him it was no big deal.

And I hope this really does give him back most. of his physical ability. I think he still has some issues in his back, but this is like the best we're going to get. He's not going to do a back surgery. So I couldn't be happier. I mean, it has been so many conversations between like me and my mom and my brother and like, which strategy do we take to talk to him? Like, should Ashley talk to him? Should Matt talk to him? My mom's like, I can't do anymore, you know? And so I think it's maybe affected some of his relationships, like mainly with my mom. And, you know, this is like personal. But it is something that we all deal with as our parents. parents age. And so it does feel like once he scheduled the surgery, we all breathe this collective

sigh of relief and he's been in such good spirits about it. And now it's done. And I just hope this gives him, you know, his identity back. I feel like I'm going to cry. I'm just trying to like disassociate while I talk about it because it's been like the early days of this and like seeing him like limping around and, you know, him not picking up, being able to pick my suitcase up and do those things. It's so hard. And cognitively, my parents are, are both really still there and they're really healthy. And I'm so lucky for that and that's not a lot of people's story. And so to have that and just to have this one thing holding him back,

we're like, just fucking fix it. Like, just try at least. Like, just try. Like, you're lucky to have the resources and the insurance or the money or whatever it is to just take your health into your own hands. I just, I really encourage people to talk to your parents about this stuff. And it sounds like so,

like mom's telling you what to do. But like, we have another friend also. who's, she was encouraging her father to get his heart checked and he's of the same age. He's stubborn. Men are so stubborn as they get older. She was like, please go do this and he kept avoiding it and he did and there was some pretty serious complications and she was able to convince him to like get surgery and take care of himself and God forbid had she not stayed on top of him.

And I think like, you know, these men as they get older, they're so stubborn and they're not to listen to you and these conversations are like, they treat you like you're crazy. Like you're the child back off of me and it doesn't matter. Like stay fucking. on them. Yeah, stay vigilant. I can't imagine like your dad if this just got worse. I mean, to be in pain every day is my worst nightmare, chronic pain. Chronic pain. Yeah. So I hope this fixes it. And I mean, to me, I'm just like, even it's the back and the hip, fix one. Because you have the bag and it's weighing on the hip. You have no cartilage left in your hip.

You know, like this should work wonders for him. And so I mean, he's going to come to the special taping. Like, I think that's like the first time he'll really step out. Stepping out. Show out, show off that new hip. And so, yeah, but I have been joking about it that I really like, this was my bride's ill moment. And I was like, don't you dare come to the wedding if you don't get a hip replacement. Let me see that hip.

Let me see that hip. I want to see him comfy in a suit. Exactly. You know, looking as hot as he is. I'm going to get him in a tux. We're trying to get him in one. I just ordered my suit yesterday. Rain's going to be in a tux.

I'm going to wear a suit to marry him. One outfit left. I got my Halloween costume. I got my Indian outfit. I got my suit to marry you. I need one more outfit. Oh my gosh. It's really happening.

Okay, so what is going on with you? My only news is that I'm on a friendship journey. I don't want to be. I don't want to be. No new friends. You and I had this crazy mass exodus from L.A. in the last like six months, really. We're like some of my closest girlfriends have left.

We have lost like a bunch of friends that are couples. I mean, you lose two people in one foul swoop. It's crazy. Right. multiple couples. And then I just feel like people haven't been around this summer. And I went back to New York for like a few weeks and like every second of my day was still with people. And that's how I think you and I are used to living. That's how I like to live. And I came back here and I've just

been like a little disappointed all the social life that you and I used to last year. And I don't know. I was talking my dad about it. He was like, so make new friends. And it's like, I think people say that really flippantly. But like one of the most number one questions we've gotten for eight years of the show is like, how do I make new friends? It's frustrating because I don't need any more friends. I'm having a hard time keeping up with my friends. Like I have a friend right now dealing with a very serious health issue. Like, I have, there's always something going on. I mean, we're aging too and people's parents are dying. I mean, like I feel like I sometimes don't have enough capacity to be a good friend to all

of my friends. I had three bachelor parties. Like, I got enough friends. It's like, they're just not here. I know. And the same with you. And we had this point in LA where we were like, we have too many friends. Everybody's here. Too many groups of friends. Like our weekends were always so full. We were doing so much. And then again, a lot of people move back to New York or they moved somewhere else or they're just, it's just crazy. Like, this isn't like friend breakups we're not talking about. This is like people just are gone. They left.

One girl got a boyfriend never talked to us again. That's true. Yeah, but that's there. You know, we did lose one that way. And you know, RIP to her. He don't want friends like that. RIP. Her loss.

So, yeah, it's just like, I don't need any more friends. I can't handle any more friends. My dad was like, made new friends. And I was like, I've been doing that. I don't want more friends. Yeah. I already, I have reinvented my friend group a lot throughout my life. because of circumstances.

Like I worked in restaurants my whole life, and then I went into the corporate world, and all my friends I would, like, party with late at night had very different schedules than me then. So I had to, like, reinvent that friend group, and then I became a food blogger, and I had all these influencers and media friends, and you and I wanted to podcasting and comedy,

and we moved to L.A., and I've gotten all these groups of friends. I'm tired. I don't want to do it again. Yeah, we're full. But now I have to, because I can't, you know me. I, like, hate complaining about something over and over again and not fixing it, so I'm like,

I do need more friends. And I'm, like, half kids. like you can always use friends, whatever. Kind of. No, but I mean, I'm just on that note, again, I feel like I've struggled with keeping up with my current friends. But anyway, I want to hear about your friend-making journey because I don't know about this new person. Me? Yeah.

Weren't you out watching football with some stranger? You know her? No, you know her. I mean, I always say, like, when people are like, how do I make friends, unfortunately, the first thing you have to do is say yes to everything. And it's like stuff you wouldn't have gone to and you wouldn't have done. But, like, you can't complain. like no one's finding me in my house on my couch. If like if you're not trying and so sometimes you do have to put yourself in situations

that like you don't necessarily want to be in and I'm not dangerous situations. But like I feel like hanging out with new people is a lot of social capital on me. Like it's not as easy and comfortable. And like I went to the Hamptons a couple weekends ago. It was like a whole house full of people I didn't know and I like made new friends and I love them. They're going to be your friends not too. And this weekend I had I just said yes to a bunch of stuff with like they're

They're friends of good friends of ours. They've been vetted. They've been in the mix, but they're not people I have solo plans with typically. And it was nice. I am having to just say yes. Yesterday I took a walk with a friend of ours ex-girlfriends.

Not on purpose. I ran into her, but I was like, oh, she's here. I'll hang out with her. And I mean, I'm doing it. Yeah. I'm on a mission.

I'm going to find new friends because I can't complain every single week I don't have them. I feel like my joke of like, well, you know, I only have three friends. Like, I feel like people are getting tired of it. that I needed material. You're so right.

I mean, sometimes you just have to get off the couch. Like, I'm thinking of a newer friend that we have. And we went out. It was me and you and my fiance. And then I invited her because we were in her part of town. And she was like, okay. And she showed up and we all hung out all night. And I feel like now, I mean, I'll text with her.

And like, that's our friend now. You know, and she could have very easily been like, I don't know. Like, I don't know them that well. I'm going to go hang out. And she showed up. hung out with us all night. Went to dinner and went to drinks. And so, like, that's just an example of being like, I got to, you know, maybe be a little bit uncomfortable for a minute. Yeah. It is also interesting when you start hanging out with somebody that you've never

hung out with on purpose solo. Like they've always been, like our good friend Jackie, she's the connector of a few people. And I went to meet this girl Sunday morning to watch football because it's 10 a.m. here. And I've never hung out with her solo. She's Jackie's good friend. And I like her. I know her, but I don't know her like that. And I went to meet her. And she was with a bunch of guys I didn't know. And so it was like me and like new people. And it is always like, are we going to vibe without like the central connector between the two of us? But you always will.

I mean, you get along. I've never seen someone get along with people like you. I mean, I know sometimes you'd be faking it. But you're not like a fake person, but you really can, you might never talk to that person again. But you can really get along with anybody. Yeah. And if I put myself in situations, I'm not saying this about her. I like this girl a lot.

But like even if it happens to be like, you. reach out to a person, you don't hang out with that much, you meet people through them. Like, I'm exactly. That this guy through her that I was just really like talking to. He's fun. We're not going to date, but he's just fun to hang out with. And that's how I did it in New York when I first moved to New York. I would hang out with these people that I'm not friends with that anymore.

They connect me to me and other friends. Yeah, I mean, I always use this example for Merrill. And I did this Hampton's little share two weekends a summer through someone I got connected to from a friend from Atlanta. And the girl that ran the house, like we never really vibed that much and we weren't friends. I would say, I mean, we were fine, but like, Merrill is what came out of that group. Like, the main core group of the house were not girls I was really ever friends with besides Merrill, and that's one of my best friends.

And she came from that. And the connector, I'm not friends with either of the connectors anymore. One of them I never was. But I was thinking about friends a lot this weekend because I was at Jenny Jones' wedding. So we have a little bit of a former guest update as well. Jenny was on our podcast in summer of 2021. And she shared her breast cancer journey. and her dating while having breast cancer.

Also, she had not yet met her now husband. He is wonderful and they just got married this past weekend in Denver, but she's cancer-free and we've mentioned that on the podcast as well. So anyway, just a little update there. And I just being at her wedding, I mean, I've been friends with her for 10 years and I forgot how many of her friends I knew. Like I hadn't really thought too deeply about who I was going to run into at the wedding. And I'm like, this woman and I've been friends for 10 years.

I know a lot of her other friends. Like people kept coming up and I was like, oh my God, Holly. Like this one girl who she lived with in Austin, when I met Jenny, she lived in Austin and she shortly moved to Atlanta shortly thereafter. We had like our Atlanta era. Her roommate at the time was this woman Holly, if you're listening to Hi, Holly. And I haven't thought about her in years, but I knew her. We see her and her husband in the lobby of the hotel in the morning.

And she's like, Ashley, I'm like, oh my God. Like I haven't even, I wasn't thinking about people like her. We hung out with them all night. My fiancee loved her husband. like people like that and just people kept coming up and I was like oh my gosh I love this I love that of like long friendships and you know these people's other friends and everybody's obviously there to celebrate her and in general I just love that she waited to find her person she just turned 40 and she's getting married and it was nice to be around that too yeah it looked really wonderful I was

invited I didn't end up going unfortunately but it was fun they did like they got married small I wasn't at that. It was just like just pretty much family and like very, very best friends, like in their backyard on Friday night. And then they just had the party Saturday night. And it was like a rave vibe. It was just like a dance party. There was pizza.

It was like casual and really fun. I had to ask you a question. So she, I knew it was a rave vibe. What instructions did she give you? Because if somebody had told me rave vibe, I would have shown up looking insane. You would have nailed it. Yeah, but you wore like a normal. Yeah, but I kind of have some regrets.

Yeah, but either outfit you wore were still things you could wear. in public and people would be like, she looks lovely. Yeah. I would have looked insane. She admittedly was like, I gave you all a tough dress code. And she did make mood boards. She did send the mood boards. There was a Pinterest board, but she said like fancy festival.

And so people went two different directions. I mean, I wore a dress that was like an ambre vibe. Like I look back and I'm like, that was the wrong fit. I should have worn something I already had. Like, we have plenty of these clothes, sequins and jumpsuits. And I just, people were there and like, damn, I should have dressed like that. Like the vibe was just whatever, whatever. But it was a wedding.

Like, it's like, I threw this birthday party this summer and it was like a festival. Similar vibe. I would not have known what to do because I was like, I would have shown up looking crazy at this wedding. You still wore like a wedding. But I didn't need to. Were people's butts out. Yeah, it was great.

There was some butts out. It was just a party. I mean, they'd already gotten married the night before. So Jenny wore her wedding dress at the beginning of that so you could see it. And she changed into this like sequin look that was like something you'd wear to a live show. Costume. So I kind of wish you would have been there. I was just in Denver.

No. I was just travel. I was gone for three days. No, no. It was great. But you were missed and it was fun. So anyway, congrats to her and her husband, Micah. And she still gets messages about coming on our show.

And just one in particular, she showed me that was like I heard you when girls got to eat and I followed you ever since. And you've really showed me that you should never settle and wait to you find your person. and, you know, I think about the guy Jenny was dating when she found out she had cancer, just like, ugh, the worst guy. She submitted him for the ex game at the Bachelor Art Party. Like, imagine if she would have, like, been married to that fucking guy and gone through this with somebody like that. You know, she is the best, most supportive, most fun, most hot partner. And she waited to find the right person.

I just love the message. I love it. Also, as you're talking, I have this idea of, should we do a where are they now episode with our guests? And they each has to send us, like, a three-minute video about, like, what's up since they were on? I love that. We just edited together. Well, we used to do where are they now for our crazy emails, like bunyan girl and like foot job girl and like your fiancee was an email.

Where are they now? Mary Ashley. Marrying their hall pass. I like that idea. Yeah, we can do some guest updates. We'll think about it. Someone's like, ah, I'm in prison. Can you imagine?

No, there's probably nobody. No, we have good guests. Yeah. And we talk shit on them probably pretty publicly if they aren't good guests. Okay. Well, let's just thank our partners and get our episode. I'm very, really, really, I'm very, really, I'm really excited for this one. I loved Ingrid's book.

I think it's just a really beautiful episode. Yeah, so we will get into it with her. You guys are going to love it. Okay, function. Function, because it is the only health platform that gives me data. Most people never get and the insights to start doing something about it. Inside function, you get access to test over 100 plus biomarkers, from hormones to toxins, to markers of heart health, inflammation, and stress.

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which explores people pleasing as a survival response. Please welcome to the show, Dr. Ingrid Clayton. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Welcome. Congrats on the book. Yes. Thank you so much.

I love the Barker's beauty reveal there. That's really all I do here. I'm just the Van of White of the podcast. No, you did it really great. When you held it up, I was like, look at her go. And the cover is beautiful. Ashley, I love an umbrella. Can't get enough of the pink to orange onbra.

They did a great job. We've seen every book cover and we were really judgy. And so I'm just a real font slut and I love the colors. Yay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm so glad. Thank you. And the stuff in the book is fantastic. We're really excited to have you.

You came to us recommended by Dr. Rom and I Der Vassala, who we've done several episodes on, about specifically narcissism. And what she's done is pick like a very specific psychological term and made it her expertise. And you have done that with something else, which we'll unpack today. But the book was hard to read,

but a pleasure to read and really, really well done. Thank you for reading it and having me here. Of course. So can we just talk a little bit about your background You can start wherever you have a personal story as well, but also just this being your expertise. And was it always in the vein that we just talked about, Dr. Romney? Like she chose the thing and then went for it. And I'm just curious how that came about with you.

Well, as you know, I start the book when I'm 13 years old in the hot tub with my stepfather. So I have been trying to unpack what I now know is a chronic experience of the fawning trauma response my entire life. I'm including getting three degrees in psychology, you know, next month, God willing, I'll be 30 years sober. I've done all the programs. I've read all the books. And there was something that was still keeping me so stuck. And when you've read all the books and taken the questionnaires and you still feel like it's just me, I'm the only one, it just kind of doubles down on the shame that you're holding, this feeling that it just must be me. I'm broken. And, you know, eventually in my private practice, I started to specialize in trauma, which led to working with complex trauma, which is synonymous with relational trauma or childhood trauma. And I still didn't think, you know, I was sharing with you a little bit before, Raina, like,

I don't have trauma. My story's not that bad. There's this idea that trauma is specific to these concrete, you know, single incident events that everyone can agree is traumatic. and what we now know with complex trauma is that that is simply not true. And so first getting this introduction to complex trauma gave me a new lens on my own life. And then I wrote a memoir, not by choice, but by deep calling, deep breakdown. And after five years of writing not just my childhood story, but all my dysfunctional relationships

and all these patterns that I could not break free from, I could see my own story. I could see my own story through a clinical psychologist's eyes. It's not like I wasn't sitting on a lot of therapy couches because I was doing that too, but none of it had revealed to me what this process did. And so first with my memoir, I said, if I have all this knowledge and information and I was still feeling so stuck, how many people are living this way. And, you know,

then coming to find that big publishing wanted a book on fawning. And I just, my whole body lit up like nothing ever has. And I said, that's my book, that's my topic. So I come at it from this deep, deep lived experience, which I think, honestly, is probably more important than my clinical experience. I feel like, yes, we have a lot of research to do. But you have to turn to the people that are living with the thing, whatever it is, I think, to really understand it.

And so I turn to my practice. I have seven clients that I've been working with, you know, between one and 16 years in the book. and I said, would you be willing to share your experience on Fawning? And they were so generous, they all said yes. And it's my story and it's their story because it's time to finally have this conversation. Well, thank you for sharing that. And we don't need to gloss over your story.

I mean, we want everyone to read your book, of course. But it's essentially, I mean, it was grooming and, I mean, child abuse. Yeah. Obviously, it was tough to read. It's really just, you know, filled me with a lot of anger and, you know, and sadness for people who have experienced anything like that. Yeah. Do you feel like that was kind of the start of all this that led you into, like,

dysfunctional relationships you talked about later? Like, that was really the catalyst. Yes, because, you know, when we think about childhood in particular, so basically, you know, we're talking about fawning as a trauma response and what most of us have known for a long time is fight, flight, and freeze. But if you think about childhood in particular, we need our caregivers longer than any other species. We are dependent on them. These are vital relationships. In my personal experience and many of my clients, a fight response might not be available to you, right? It's going to make

things worse. A flight response, where are you going to go? You're going to be brought right back to the scene of the crime, essentially. And so, fawning became this way for me to navigate the daily, chronic, ongoing, pervasive experiences of not only threats to my sense of safety, but I had to maintain these relationships with these primary attachment figures. So Fawning becomes this really genius adaptive way to do that. And it can look like on one hand leaning in to sort of caretake. And like with my mom who was absent, I could sort of endow her with all this goodness. And if she could, she would and maybe I can help her. And with my stepdad, you know, it was this like flirting and flattering and appeasing to try to keep him just at bay, right? So I can

maintain a sense of myself. So it looks different depending on the context, but it's essentially this shape shifting to manage the moods and states of those in charge. I'm glad that you named it because I had such a light bulb moment when I was reading this because of course if you depend on somebody for shelter and food. Yes. There's no fight and flight response. Right. Of course, like you said, where are you going to go?

You have to placate. That's right. Of course, what you experienced is child abuse and it's hard to read and, you know, I really, Ashley, in my, our heart's broke to read what you experience. But zooming out from that, lots of women feel like this, minorities at times. That's right. Touch on lots of different categories of people that experience this where the option isn't to not assimilate.

That's right. That's right. I think it's all systems of power, right? And so I really touch on that in fawning that, again, if you think all of these survival responses or trauma responses, whatever you want to call them, they're based on what we know about the animal defenses. And so if you look in the animal kingdom, it's really obvious that the animal kingdom, you say, that, right, the lion, the king of the jungle is entitled at the top of the food chain

to having a voice and setting healthy boundaries, right? This is my territory. But that our bodies know intuitively where we reside in that pecking order. And that determines what responses are available. So, yes, it's not just in childhood, but you think about patriarchy and people of color, all marginalized communities. You even think about people that are, you know,

their religious community or like we need to affiliate. It might be your whole life that we're talking about, right? Your identity is tied to these different places and spaces. You're not going to go against the grain because look at what you might be sacrificing. It could be everything. You're in a bind, right? So the body has to choose. And often in these cases, it chooses a sense of safety and relationship over self.

So it really is the fourth response. Like when we have fight, flight, freeze, fawn. It's the fourth F, right? Because there are more, but I think these are sort of the biggies that we're speaking to now. Yeah. And it just, if we're defining it, it just is to placate to lean in to almost appear that you are obviously fine or even enjoy what's happening? I think that's a great way to explain it. It's the leaning in.

And so in that way, it's the trauma response that hides in plain sight because it doesn't. it does look like, even to the person who's experiencing it, like, hey, how you doing? Right? I'm choosing to be here. I'm perfectly fine with what's happening. So the distinguishing factor between fawning and say what we've called people pleasing or even codependency is that it is an unconscious reflex, right? No one's choosing to do this. It's also why I started with that story of me being 13. I didn't choose to lean into relationship with my stepdad. I was almost witnessing it from practically an out-of-body place. Like, wow, this is what's happening. And so when you say to people, well, just set a boundary, right?

Just grow your self-esteem. You're using a very conscious, rational strategy that I would go, yeah, that makes perfect sense to me, right? But it's not available to me. Sure. It's really reductive. And I think that people are so well-intentioned when they say, well, why don't you draw a boundary? Why don't you explain how you're feeling?

why you tell your other parent. And it's like, well, yeah, I tried all those things before I talked to you about that. And I do want to talk about later where this appears all the time. But, you know, women in the workplace with their bosses. How many women have been sexually harassed continuously and you're just going to go find another job?

No, you let that person treat you like that. Or when I was growing up, a lot of people, especially in college, had never met another Jewish person and made a lot of jokes to me about it. And I chose to laugh at those things and joke around with it because I didn't feel unsafe. And so I was like, it's easier to just, go along with this and laugh about it.

Looking back, I didn't really stand up for myself the way I wanted to. I assimilated. Right. Yeah, we were talking. I mean, there's such a spectrum. There's, of course, a child abuse situation and feeling like you need to placate your stepfather who's abusing you. And then there's laughing at a racist joke directed at you. We were talking about this, someone that may grow up as a person of color in an all-white community

or they have all-white friend groups. And you hear these remarks, and I would hear this back, especially more when I lived in Atlanta. and you would hear the person that was being targeted laugh along, and then that makes all the white people think it's okay. And it's the same thing as you were saying with the Jewish jokes. And you mentioned like, what are you going to do as a kid to fight or flight? But that almost feels like, I don't know, as an adult, it's not so easy. That's right.

That's right. Again, depending on where you are, right, in this sort of hierarchy of your life. And if your job is dependent, right, to your point, it's like, I'm not going to look back at my boss and be like, like, what the hell are you doing? I need that paycheck, right? So many vital relationships of our lives that that is survival, right? Financial dependency is another aspect of survival.

So it's pretty pervasive when you think about all the systems that elicit a fawn response and, quite frankly, that many of us were conditioned to have one. That it's sort of under the guise of respect. It's like go along, get along, and rush under the rug. Don't be the problem. Don't be the problem. I didn't want to be like the angry Jewish girl that had a problem with everything. That's right.

I laughed at it. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, you can't joke around with her. Right. Right. She can't take a joke. You know him.

You can't make racist jokes at his expense. That's right. You know him. It's crazy. So can we talk about, and we do want to talk about people pleasing today because that's probably what a lot of people relate to. But how does this differ from just like quote unquote be nice or people pleasing? Well, I think it's the sense of agency.

So inherent in this reflexive response where now I have to orient to you, right, anything external, it's like, do you like me? Do you give me permission? Do you validate me? Are you taking care of me? The focus is completely outside of our own body. And the sad, you know, consequence of that is a disconnect from self. Essentially, it's self-abandonment.

So that's the differentiating factor. Am I showing up and am I compulsively? volunteering and am I the friend that always, you know, does all the emotional labor and is happy to stay on the phone with you for three hours, but we never get back to me? Like, am I doing that because it's a conscious choice? Or am I doing that because the only safety and connection I've ever known has been to a degree where I don't really get to fully exist? Wow. Unless I'm prioritizing someone else's needs. So I think it's conscious choice. There's nothing wrong with being kind and being of service, I'm never going to put those things down. But I think a lot of us don't know

how those empathic and loving tendencies are being hijacked by a chronic trauma response. Yeah. And like at the expense of your own self. That's right. So how does this kind of manifest in real life? What does this look like? How does somebody who's like fawning show up? I think that it's, there's conflict avoidance, right? Conflict feels like terror. So to step into health conflict, you need to have a healthy fight response to have a voice. But again, if it's like, I don't really get to be in this relationship where it's reciprocal, I have to sort of shrink myself. We get small, we defer, you know, where do you want to go to lunch? No, whatever. Right, there's this like sort of easygoing vibe that we can have. But then it can also look like

it did for me for many years, which is dating the same person over and over with a different face and feeling like, why can't I have a healthy relationship to save my life? You sort of see the red flags, but you paint them white a little bit. It's like it's going to get better any day now. Maybe if I help them, if I hang in there, if I be more patient, right? It's those pieces and romantic relationships. So the thing to know is that fawning is context dependent. So that shape-shifting notion is like I lean into whatever this relationship needs me to be. And it might be very different to what this relationship needs me to be. I'm just curious what were the patterns in the people you were dating that were the same? Like an avoidant? Yes, avoidant, actively addicted. So it spanned

a spectrum. So some were cheaters. Some were liars. Some were actively addicted. None of them really wanted to step into a commitment with me. And I stayed and I waited and I hoped until eventually they broke up with me. They couldn't get their financial lives together. Right? It's like I'm trying to get them into therapy and I'll pay for the therapy. It's like, you know, me just running circles around the dysfunction. So the dysfunction could change, but my patterns were very similar. Were you rejecting healthy options or just not seeking them out or finding them at all? Well, this is the tricky thing is that I didn't have any chemistry with healthy options. options.

Got it. So not even, they weren't even on the table. Not really, because I believed, and this is the other thing I think the window into complex trauma gives us, is that I believed what I was feeling, which now I know was unresolved trauma, was healthy chemistry. Okay. And so I thought, well, you know, I can't manufacture chemistry with a healthy person.

And, you know, fast forward, thank goodness. I will have been married to my now husband for 11 years this month, I think. What's current husband? Ashley one time said my current fiancé, and a few months later, I was like, wait, what? But it's your first fiancé? It's her first and only. Okay, okay. But, oh, is he not your first?

He is not my first. You're able to say it. You're part of the culture. You're team up for the future. Okay, because there's a comedian that does the current husband thing, and it's his first husband too. It's just very funny. So we just flagged it.

But anyway, so we didn't want to cut you off. You've been with your current husband for... Yes, yes, for 11 years married. And I have to say when we met, I didn't have that crazy spark, that thing that was like, oh, it's on. And I'm so grateful that I had healed enough at that point that I was like, but I want to see you again. I want to spend time. And what I now know is that I was feeling at ease in his presence. I know it could make me cry.

I could bring my full self. And I have never, not one time in all of these years felt unsafe or devalued or not absolutely treasured. there is no drama. There has never been drama. It's the two things that we say over and over is feeling at ease, feeling at home, not that nervous, anxiety that make people mistake for butterflies. Right. And then the only thing I say about seeing someone again is just that you want to see that.

Yes, just the next time. The urge to hang with them enough. Even if it wasn't the sparks you've come to expect and know, it's just, do you want to just hang out with them one more time? That's magic. Just to go for it. Yes. I've never heard anybody coined it as I didn't feel chemistry with a healthy relationship.

And that is just so true. Yeah. And I thought I couldn't manufacture it. So what choice did I have? But to lean into the one where all of my bells and whistles were like, okay, it's on, you know? And another merry-go-round, I went. Well, thanks for sharing, though. This is a word dating podcast.

We had to ask. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I want to talk about a part relationship. Yeah. Okay, we're just going to take a quick break, and then we will get back into it. I am telling you guys about AG1 and something new that we haven't told you about before, and that is AGZ. So, of course, you have your morning routine with AG1.

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Thank you Zibiotics for sponsoring this episode and our good times. So your story, and you talk about getting sober, you got a psychology degree, you got certification, but like these problems were still there. And so there's like a term in A, I called a dry drunk, somebody that gets sober, but they haven't like healed the issues that made them become an addict to begin with. And you really did all the things you're supposed to, in quotes, do, which is it sounds like you got therapy, you got a therapy degree,

you got sober, and the problems were still sort of there. Yes. And so like what did that journey from then to finding this really solid partner look like? Well, I see this with my clients a lot. they have equally done all the things. They tell me their attachment style, they break out like an entire resume about everything that they've done

to sort of heal themselves. But just like them, I was doing those things to almost become a different version of me. I was doing those things to override my wounding, my experiences. So if we look at my history, I was essentially not seen, not taking care of,

right? Worth is the wound, okay? And this is so true for many of us. So if I don't feel worthy out of the gates, well, I need to go and make myself worthy. And so we pursue self-help and therapy and all of these things as though it's going to render us one day worthy. And when we do that, we're perpetuating the same problem. Does that make sense?

Yeah, you wrote in the book that often people that grew up fawning present is really high functioning. Yes. And they're very successful because they've thrived in other areas of their life. Right. And I was curious, even this may resonate with the audience and just in general, your personal experiences with the clients. Yeah.

Are you talking to clients and they're having a light bulb moment that they're even doing this? Yes. Like they wouldn't have thought that they were. 100%. Most of my clients don't come to me or they didn't historically saying, Ingrid, I have unresolved complex trauma and I'm stuck in a chronic fawn response, right? They came because they had dysfunctional relationships or they wanted to date but they couldn't date or a host of other things.

And when I present to them this paradigm, they go, okay, I can start to see myself. But it can be a tough sell, I think A, because the language of trauma. And people say, well, I don't want to apply that to my own life. And I can understand that to a degree. And you say people rank their trauma and they say I didn't have this event. So I wasn't traumatized. My story's not that bad, Ingrid.

You know, I was saying to you that people can, point to the book and you were both so kind to say like it was hard to read my story, but I guarantee you for decades, I was like, my story's nothing. My story's nothing compared to so many other people, right? We do. We have this trauma measuring stick around, is my story bad enough? And it's also why it's important to name trauma doesn't happen based on the story at all. Trauma happens based on overwhelm in our nervous system. It's not dependent on this experience or that experience. Ten different people can experience the same exact thing. We see this in family systems all the time. Some people come out traumatized and some people do not, right? So we got to take the emphasis

off the story. But once you do start to give people this understanding of like even pursuing therapy with this idea, like I have all the answers. And fauners want me to like them as clients. Right. Okay. Fawners are like, am I your favorite? Right, tell me, I'm kind of your favorite client, right? And I know this too from being a client in therapy. I know that's the tell right there. That's the tell. Damn it, that is my, I would walk into therapy.

Like, I don't even know what you're going to tell me. I'm going to win therapy. I'm going to win. That's exactly. I'm so healed already. I barely even know what you're going to tell me because I'm awesome. I present a client in the book who said that. And he's this phenomenal, very successful lawyer, partner in a firm.

And he was like, Ingrid, I think I'm trying to win therapy. Like I want you to tell me what to do. I'm going to go and do it. I'm going to come back and tell you that I did it for the pat on the head. And I was like, so you're kind of missing in this whole equation. It's just about pleasing me. I wonder what it would be like if you weren't missing in your own life. And it was like, I'm missing in my own life.

I don't even like my job. I have no hobbies. I'm not leaning into dating. It sort of was, it opened up this whole world that he'd been performing, right? Also a big fauner trait. curating a life rather than inhabiting and living it. And what a waste of your money.

Come on, let's go expensive. Oh, it's so true. Yeah. It's so true, but it's also. Actually not being healed, just to be performing? But we don't know that we're performing, right? But this is the other reason why I want, you know, hopefully clinicians to read the book,

because we can feel as clinicians like we're doing a great job. But can't you tell? No. No. You really, okay. Most therapists still do not have this language and this framework to even be curious. Just this type of person you're talking about. I feel like we've known people like that.

We've been on dates with these people that, you know when you see it. You're not living in your own truth. You don't know who you are. I think you're right. And it's a spectrum like most things, right? So you can really identify absolutely. I can identify sometimes on the initial phone call, right? I'm like, okay, I know the work that we're going to be doing here.

But I know even for myself as a client in therapy over the years, right? I would be the one who my therapist would be like, okay, can you try to do whatever this intervention is in the session? And they're like, Ingrid, just close your eyes and do this thing. And I would close my eyes. And what I'm literally thinking is, how long do I have to do this until they feel like I've tried their intervention? Yeah, totally.

But I hate this. I don't want to do this, right? And I didn't want them to be mad at me or think that I wasn't willing to try, right? All these other things. And I was convincing. I know that I was. And now I know that my job is partially to disappoint my therapist, right? And I do now.

My therapist, Holly, if she told me like, Ingrid, go inside and close your eyes. And I'd be like, Holly, I hate this right now. Like, that's- Don't feel good? Yes. It's night and day. It's night and day. It's really interesting. Yeah.

Or because here's the job. truth, if we're talking about moving from a life of disconnection to self, gosh, this makes me emotional. For me to identify, first just identify, I hate this, something is coming up in me, and then to be able to say it out loud to another person that I feel like I'm disappointing, you can see why that is the miraculous moment that starts to change your life in therapy is to say, I hate this, because my therapist is a trauma therapist and she can go, okay, can we notice that? Can we notice? The hate. Can we notice what that feels like in your body? I wonder if it makes you think of anything else, right? And then we're off to the races. It makes me think of also your childhood and where

this comes from is you, you told your parent, told your mother what was happening, and she invalidated you. Yes. And she robbed you of a sense of feeling safe and heard and understood. And so of course that manifests in a, I don't want to tell people what's really going wrong because they'll invalidate me. and I'm not used to being told that I'm right. And so I'm just going to do my best to be as good as I am and good as I get. But it's hard to tell people, you're letting me down or I hate this. Completely. I think it also leads to that other point of that sort of high functioning presentation.

It's like, well, because we have to be that self-reliant, you know. I can't count on you or you or you. I've got to figure it out. And so we do, right? And in a way, that's amazing and it's resilient, but it's also freaking. lonely and sad, right? We're not having real relationships from that place. So I want us to have self-reliance, but I also want us to feel like we can be a little bit safer in the world. This is a little off track, but I'm just really curious. With your current husband,

did you have any blips as you were getting into a relationship with him where you wanted to run? Yeah. Yes. Okay, because it felt healthy. It felt healthy and I was, pretty hyper vigilant because I'm like, I had been married before and it went horribly, you know, bad. It was over within a year and a half. And I found all the hidden vodka bottles in the closet that I didn't know were there, but I also knew exactly where to look. Right.

So I was looking for the red flags, you know, before Yancey and I got married. And listen, he's a whole human being. He has flaws. Similarly, we're on a journey. But what I decided. discovered in that is when I brought my concerns to him, he did not gaslight me. He did not say, oh, that's a you problem. Right? He didn't say, I don't know what you're talking about. He goes, oh, yeah, that makes sense that you would feel that way. He was, right? He was willing to take

personal responsibility. And, and he's like, I'm in no rush, whatever you need. I mean, I get goosebumps, like paradigm shift, right? And then I have a little. lovely mentor who at the time I brought my concerns to his name is bill and bill said ingrid you've always worked so hard to make the wrong person right and now you're trying real hard to make the right person wrong. I'm going to burst into tears. That is like such an amazing quote. I feel like it's going to hit people on a chest.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. How many people have been just had the moment of I've been doing that my whole life. Every second of those interview. Oh yeah. Right. Can we go back to your life old moment? Do you want to share it?

Well, I do want to just also share, like, you know, I wrote, I took a lot of notes, obviously, from your book, but, you know, one of the things you talk about is apologizing to those who have hurt us. And it sounds like your current husband doesn't make you do that anymore. Like, you say you've hurt me and his response is, let's talk about it. That's right. I'm sorry. That's right.

You're wrong. That's right. Or deep curiosity, right. And one of my favorite things that my husband, Yancey says, is there are no shoulds in this family and he really means it. Like he doesn't have to be a particular way. I don't have to be a particular way. There is room for, you know, two and now three because my son just turned 10 this weekend. All three of us to be whole people. It is profound. It's so different. Yeah. It must just feel really different to be able to like say I feel this thing and not feel like you're going to be like

ripped apart. Yeah. And the scary things, the scary dark things, right? Like we're talking about even saying the simple things were hard. And so now pulling on the really hard stuff and having equal room to be able to talk about it, there are no words, the gift that that gives to me as someone who will be continually healing for the rest of my life. I relate to this as somebody who grew up feeling invalidated a lot.

And it very much manifested in my conflict style and not telling people that they were hurting me or upsetting me or bothering me. And it would make me, we used to talk about us more on earlier days of the podcast because I think I've worked really hard to change and my relationship with Ashley has done that my relationship with my brother has done that

and people saying to me like you avoid talking to me when you were upset and it makes me feel like you don't love me or care. I just flat, my brother said that to me one day and he was like you're mad at me about something and you just stopped talking to me and really like I would just be really upset and feel like if I told him something, it would be invalidated and that's not what he ended up doing.

So it's been a life of trying to unweave that and be really really. comfortable with conflict and I am not proud to say like I oh yeah she's like she's like she loves growth I mean it's wow I mean we've been together doing this for eight years and so we've both changed and grown a lot wow I'm less less reactive oriented but the thought of somebody saying to me that I was I was trying to make people happy around me and I want I mean everybody does want some people around you to feel good like you care about you but hearing that I was doing something that I didn't realize I was doing was the worst thing I could hear.

And knowing that I had like upset somebody and I didn't realize it and bringing an issue to somebody and feeling like they were going to tell me that I was an idiot or that that didn't really happen. It was so terrifying to me. Yes. And now, I don't know. I feel like I've just grown a lot through this podcast through Ashley, through a guest, all kinds of people.

But I'm not scared to hear that I did something because I know I can apologize and hear somebody out. I'm not afraid to say how I feel. And I do wrestle with that still my whole life. I don't want to pick every battle. But I feel like I'm the architect of the people in my life. And I feel like people in my life are people that I can say, this bothered me and they're not going to attack me. Yes.

And so, you know, both of those things. That's incredible. I love that. Yeah. People who are fauners or people pleasers, do you feel as though narcissists and manipulators and gaslators sense that and seek it out even? But I feel like even I know that when people, are like this. And I'm not trying to take advantage of them. But you can, you can sense it and you know how far you can push it and you know you don't have to validate them. Like on the, it's a sick thing

to talk about. But it's like there seemed like a match because they've been sought out because that narcissistic, not everybody's narcissists, we know that. It's way overuse. But that archetype knows they can manipulate them. Yeah. That's right. I think that that's such a fair point to make. And at the same time, I even want to say that I, listen, I wasn't seeking out avoidant narcissists, actively alcoholic people. But because my trauma response developed while literally my body and brain were developing, my only sense of safety was forged in the face of exploitation. So it's important to name, and it's part of the reason that I reenacted my trauma so many times, the safest I ever felt was when I was exploited.

I didn't know safety outside of that. So that's part of that chemistry that I was talking about. It was like, oh, I know how to navigate this kind of a situation, right? But yes, I think it's this common pairing. It's the beauty and the beast scenario. We get small and we couple in all kinds of different ways, mentors, friendships, you know, romantic relationships. with people that like to take up all the room.

Yeah. Okay. So another way this manifests, and I want to talk about it with you, is like, so I have a friend, she's so wonderful, but self-identifies as a people-pleaser.

And she'll say so to me all the time, like, oh, they keep bothering me to go to this thing, and I really don't want to go, but then she'll just go. Go. I'm like, then don't go. And she'll be like, they want advice for me,

and they want to get me on the phone and talk about this, and I don't feel like it. And I'm like, then don't do it. Yeah. But she really has a need to, and it's a beautiful thing about her, and I love her, but like to make people feel really comfortable around her.

And I think sometimes she finds herself like agreeing to stuff she doesn't want to do and placating people. She doesn't want to placate or even I think she's grown from this. But like having friendships with people that she felt like aren't good for them. They're not nice to me. They're not good for me. So like, is that people pleasing? Is it fawning?

I guess you need more context. But I'm sure that's identifiable to some people. I think it's very a common presentation. And, you know, for me, I guess in a way, way, I think people pleasing is just a flavor of the fawn response. It's one of the symptoms of fawning. I don't really differentiate them except to say that fawning includes our physiology and the context, whereas the language of people pleasing, it sort of felt like this like, why would you do that? Why don't you just say no? Just don't do the phone call, right? So for me, I can't really

think of, maybe you can help me, but think of a people pleasing scenario where I go yeah, it's not necessarily attached to a fond response. But as you give this example of her, I can't help but think of you saying moments before. I used to feel terror. Like that's the word that you used in terms of conflict. And that is the most real and resonant, I think, word that we can use. So slowing things down for anybody who's in that thing where it's like, ugh, they're asking me again and I don't want to go. instead of like just well then don't go why would you go getting curious and slowing it down

I wonder what you think would happen if you didn't and would you be willing even just to sit with that feeling for a moment and notice what you notice there's a reason in every trauma training I've ever done that we talk about what we're experiencing using well experiential language what are you noticing right now what are you experiencing we don't say what do you think about that because everyone goes, yeah, why would you do that? But when you move it into someone's body, what are you noticing right now? You could even say, I know for me I used to feel terror. I wonder if you notice any of that.

Not that you become their therapist, but I'm just saying it's a way to open up the conversation instead of doing it right or doing it wrong into creating more space for the person who is automatically self-abandoning. It's interesting because as you're saying this, I recall my own example 10 minutes ago of like when people are like, why don't you just set a boundary? I thought of that. So like when I say to her like, why don't you just not go? Yes.

Like she's probably like, yeah, that's occurred to me. That's not an option for me. You have more agency now, but we forget what it was like when we didn't. But I'd be so curious of what it would feel like because to me it's relief. It's, I don't want to go and I'm not going. Yeah. But to her is it they're mad at me. I'm not valuable anymore to them.

No one's thinking of me. I mean, some of it's just rooted as something. is like FOMO, you know, for, I guess, that word. Right. But just that, like, where literally I'm like, oh, she feels like great. I love that. That's probably not what she would feel. Not what she's experiencing.

Yeah. She would sit home and be anxious about it and not relax. Like, the alternative is just to go and be there as opposed to sitting with what am I missing and are people talking about me kind of spiraling when that's not true. But I think you named it exactly, which is that angrily. anxiety. So a lot of Fonters are very anxious, right? But we don't know that we're anxious because we're so focused on what you're feeling and what you're doing and what you need. So when you slow it down and get curious, that's an opportunity to notice the anxiety. Right? I've seen that a million times

on my therapy couch. It's sort of like people have said to me, oh no, I'm not anxious. And then they come to know. I am so anxious. I didn't know that I was anxious all the time. She knows she's anxious. Yeah. I'm imagining her listening to his car. I know. No, no. No question. No question. I'm the most anxious on a scale of one to her. She's the top. But she, you know, it manifests in great ways. It makes her like the best friend and she's never met a stranger. Like, everybody loves her. Every man falls in love with her. Everybody wants to be a friend. Yeah, that feeling of anxiety. And like Ashley said, like I, I love saying, notice stuff. It feels great.

One time I saw this meme and it said something like, I tell people I don't want to do stuff. I don't make any of a lie anymore. It just says like, I just don't want to go. I don't want to do it. I was like, oh, I could do that. That's crazy. Ashley always volunteers my house for people to stay at. People always want to stay with me. I have extra bedrooms. Yeah. Since you bought your new fancy house, I don't do it. Yeah, well, we have conflict. No, we didn't. But I feel comfortable telling people, I had a girlfriend asked me if she could stay with me for a week and a half. I said, you could stay with me for a couple days. I don't want that. Like, I don't feel. I don't

feel obligated to say yes to that. That's so amazing. But it's a lifetime of work. I'm 40. I didn't wake up, I didn't wake up and decide to do this one day, you know. But I think the other piece that maybe is important for people to hear is that often we don't start to pivot in the relationship itself by like saying no to the thing that's terrifying to say no to. You do it in the privacy, even of your own home of going, what am I afraid would happen if I did say no and you feel the anxiety and you feel the terror and half of our work, more than half of the work, is learning to stay present to this level of discomfort. Learning to be in this different relationship with self,

it's almost like, oh, I've got you. I know it's terrifying. I have got you, right? There's this magical thing that happens. I've seen it with probably every client I've worked with where we suddenly realize I'm the one I've been waiting for, right? I'm the one, not you to make it safe for me, not the perfect relationship to make it safe.

I have to make it safe for me. And that means staying present with the anxiety or the discomfort, whatever it is and learning to tolerate more and more of it so that you can say, I just don't want to go. I don't want you to stay without feeling that overwhelm. It's interesting, the emotions that feel comfortable and safe and the ones that they don't feel. We were talking about a girlfriend who has been in this long-term, really volatile relationship. and it's so unstable. And it would give me so much anxiety. I wouldn't be able to ever relax or sleep at night.

And I would never do it. But I think she'd rather keep that going than sit with herself and feel any sort of loneliness or sadness. She'd rather feel the like elevated craziness. Right. And it's so unrelatable to me. I'd rather be sad, be lonely, work through it. and move out of that chaos.

Yeah. And it's just interesting, how the way people feel where they're comfortable and not. But I would say, I don't know that it's a rather this or that. I mean, I'm imagining anyway. It's not like they have a map of your experience in their body, where they're like, right.

And so that paradigm does not even exist. That's what unfaunting essentially is, is we're building that capacity that you, have, it sounds like inherently, to go, that would be so unsettling to me, right? That would not feel safe. And I've been in a relationship like that and it was awful. It's not like I would never, I was in one and I would never want to go back. Generally speaking, I just think it's useful to name that this is what we're starting to build and that you've had an opportunity to build and you've had, and you know, me too. But it's literally this bottom up foundational experience that we're,

trying to cultivate within ourselves. It's major. It's like major reconstruction. So I feel like we are in this topic of breaking this cycle. Can we dive in deeper into how can we unfawn? Yeah. Well, you know, I think in a way it's tricky that I'm using that language of fawning and unfaunting because it sounds like I'm perpetuating this binary idea that like you're doing it right or wrong or you're healed or unheeled, right? And actually unfaunting to me is a radical paradigm shift of saying, I'm always going to have a body. I'm always going to have a body that's living in context, right, with different relationships and different things going on. So I'm always going to have trauma responses. I'm grateful for them. I'm grateful in the beginning of that book when I'm sitting in that hot tub that I

had a fawn response to come and save the day, right? So we're not getting rid of these things. They are life saving. What we're doing is saying we don't need to live there 24-7 in survival mode. Survival mode means we are not connected to our fullest sense of self. And I don't know what people's context of their actual lives are. It might not actually be safe to be like, well, let me tell you how I really feel about that, you know? So what I'm inviting is sort of just an expansion of your current level of capacity to feel all the tough stuff so that we can have more conscious choice and agency than we've ever had before. And one of the ways that we do that, we've talked about it a little bit, is the slowing down and getting curious, right?

What would I feel if I felt like I was allowed to even feel it? Like we have to give ourselves so much permission because it's reflexive. It's like, what do you mean? This is how I feel. Okay, well, what if there was another part of you that felt differently? Or is there another part of you that feels differently? So it's creating more space internal and external. Sometimes that space might be like, well, have you ever gone on a hike by yourself and let your mind wander and notice what you're actually thinking or feeling. Like a lot of people, the answer is no. I don't feel safe to be by myself out in the world. Right. So we're creating more of a sense of safety and autonomy. It's a big piece of it. And then the other thing, you know, there's a reason that I start the book with my story

and that I end the book basically saying. And I also don't have all the answers is that I'm wanting to adjust this paradigm of like, I'm the expert and you come to me and you talk to me for 50 minutes a week and I'm going to sort of magically unpack all of this for you. It's like, no, no, no, no, I'm a person. Even the therapy relationship becomes much more reciprocal and collaborative and more peer to peer because I'm wanting people to step into their own sense of agency and autonomy so that they can say to me, oh, Ingrid, I hated what you just said or you said that thing last week and it drove me nuts, right? So I'm trying to also impart that in the book that these are ways in which we don't have to live terrified all the time.

I think that, yes, you want to give solutions to people about how to change, but I think even naming the behavior can be really profound for a lot of people. And you talking about people that want to win therapy and they don't even realize that. And I think that can be like a real watershed moment for people when they say like, everything's great. And you name it. Yeah. But even winning your relationship or winning at work.

I think you definitely see this in romantic relationship, someone who doesn't, want to rock the boat and is in that people pleaser and it's just trying to be the perfect partner and not really ever expressing how they truly feel or being vulnerable. That's right. And it's a sad relationship to be in. And your book is obviously going to probably open a lot of people's eyes and give them hope also. And I like that you're not saying like you're a fauner and we need to cure you. Yeah.

It's a slow process and it's just incremental changes and it will just gradually improve your life. There's nothing wrong with you. Obviously, I think we've made that clear. Yes. I think that was tricky writing a self-help book when they're like, Ingrid, make it more prescriptive and give us 10 tips. And I'm like, this doesn't really work that way. In fact, now I'm gaslighting the reader.

Because I'm saying, I'm not going to say something if I think that it's a lie. I lived in that for so long. Oh, you have all the answers and you did those 10 things and now you feel fixed. And so what's wrong with me? So I'm saying I'm not going to buy into that paradigm. And it's also why I teach through personal story and lived experience. because it expands the lens much bigger. I mean, it's not as easy to talk about

as the 10 pithy things that people want to hear. It's not a great sales pitch. We don't do that. We're human. There's nuance. We don't roll like that. We'd probably be a lot more popular if we did. I mean, every video on TikTok, five ways to stop being gathless.

Yes. Yes. You know, that stuff does really well. It does. It does. It's really easy to digest. And it's for stupid people. No, I'm kidding.

No, that stuff's good, too. Don't clip me saying that. There's a place for it. But it's not a panacea. And I think we pretend that it is. I love that word. I'm going to use that one. I know. So I think even like understanding that you do this is a real watershed moment.

And like somebody, for example, that says yes to everything and doesn't want to, if you could just give them the exercise of like just one time say no. Just one. No, just start imagining. Yes. That's right. That's the first step. How would it feel to say no?

Okay. Back up. Feel it. And then like I guess you have to identify. like what's the worst thing that could happen? That's right. If you say no, is everybody going to hate you? Are there examples of people in your life that do say no to stuff?

Does everybody hate them? No. I say no to everything and everybody likes me. This is a common thing so I can give you a quick little like snippet of what might happen. Right. So rather, to your point, yes, I wouldn't say, well, just say no to somebody. I would say, what does it feel in this moment, even the idea of you saying no? And a couple of things might happen.

One is a sensation. And I go, great. Can we be present with what's happening in your body? whatever it is and we can move it somatically. Or from a parts work perspective, someone goes, oh my gosh, I can see my five-year-old self trying to say no and I got steamrolled or something happened and a memory comes. And then we can in that moment. Can you be with that five-year-old part of you right now?

And we're literally healing that terror and that panic that we're still holding. It's so visceral. It comes back immediately. And it's not like people are saying, oh, yeah, I always connect with the five-year-old self in that one moment. These are moments sometimes that shock and surprise people, the clarity with which the moments can come back where they've been triggered and they've remained triggered for decades sometimes. So this is the work. It's not about going out in the world and doing it differently and then beating yourself up when you didn't because come on it's so simple. It's like, can I go internal?

Can I go inward? can I be present to all of me? And then what magically happens is there's more of us to be present in all of our relationships, right? But that's the order that has to happen in. Otherwise, it's retramatizing. Okay. Sorry, so don't do what I said.

This is like when you said to bring up something you do or don't like in the bedroom during sex. I was during the COVID quarantine. And it was a weird time. And wasn't talk to Emily like, I would not. I actually, that's the opposite of what I would have. No, you learned it. It was during the quarantine.

Yeah. Emily Morris was like, oh, don't do that. Oh, don't do that. We learned stuff every day with different people that we were last week. Well, thank you so much for this. This was a wonderful discussion. Thank you. And the book is out now.

Yay. So, and then tell everyone else where they can find you, follow you. Yeah, I'm on all the places and the spaces. I think it's all at Ingrid Clayton, PhD. but that's all on my website, which is just ingridclayton.com. So I'd say it is great. And your book is really important for anybody who has felt this way. Thank you so much.

I really encourage people to buy it. Thank you, Vanna. Yes. And you guys know where to find us, Girls Gotta Eat.com. Girls Got Eid podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Hasrana's reina. com. Subscribe on YouTube.

Share this episode with a friend. And we will see you next time. Have a good week, guys. Bye.