Girls Gotta Eat - What is Healthy Dependency in a Relationship and How Do We Find It? with Nedra Tawwab

Episode Date: February 2, 2026

Back for another life changing discussion, we have therapist and bestselling author Nedra Glover Tawwab to talk about healthy dependency in relationships – what it is, what's the difference from unhealthy dependency/codependency, and how to achieve it. We discuss how to not lose yourself in a relationship, dating someone who's enmeshed with their family, why our attachment styles aren't fixed and how we show up differently with different people, and the problem with hyper independence. We also discuss friendship enmeshment and when one friend needs space, accommodating friends' boundaries without losing them (and when you might need to cut someone off), navigating your best friend getting into a relationship, and how to understand different peoples' communication styles. We even touch on parenting and codependency with children. Before Nedra joins us, we analyze some wrong number texts Rayna has been receiving, and answer the question 'Can a morning person be with a non-morning person?' Enjoy! Follow Nedra on Instagram at @nedratawwab and preorder her new book The Balancing Act (out February 10). Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for more. Thank you to our partners this week: Article: Get a beautiful new sofa, dining table, or bed http://article.com. Liquid IV: Get 20% off your first order at https://liquidiv.com with code GGE. Revolve: Get 15% off your first order at https://revolve.com/gge with code GGE. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There are actually healthy ways to be dependent. There are things that we have to do as a byproduct of being in a relationship with people. This podcast is a Dear Media production. Hi guys. Hi guys. Welcome to their episode of Girls Gotta Eat. Welcome back. We've been talking some really hard shit the last.

I feel happy in my body. It was cathartic. We had to get some stuff out. Also, it's Groundhog's Day. Wait, it is? So maybe if the Groundhog season, shadow. Well,

Groundlock's day's in February. What? What do you say? There's like three more months of winter. Yeah, if he sees a shadow or not, what happens? We should relate it to like the political landscape.

Like if he sees a shadow, maybe this nightmare will end. And if he doesn't, we have 30 more years of this dictatorship. Wait, is it? Punk's a tonny Phil. Raina.

He's from Pennsylvania. Yeah, we've talked about him in his family. What's the thing? Like, if he sees the shadow, is it three more months of, winter or something? Or my

overstepping. Are you what? Every year this is like Groundhog's Day. No, because remember last year we talked about Punks Satani Phil and how he has to live in, no, he has to live in like a library or something or a museum and Peter is against it and Peter reached out.

I thought that there was some scandal where Pung Satani Phil got really skinny. He looked like he was on a GLP one. People got upset. Everybody's on his epic. Okay. Groundhogs Day. Not you. It's said to, except for me, I'm the final one. I feel like it's becoming so accessible, right?

Like pill form and everything and. Yes. So, I mean, everyone's going to be. Pill form. I'm going to be the last person standing with a natural body. People are like, Rayna, how did you lose weight? How do you think I lost brain? Okay.

If he sees his shadow, it's said to extend six weeks. more of winter. Six weeks, not three months. Okay. Okay. And then February, our special month. Oh, it is our special month. So we will talk about this at a later date, but we will be celebrating eight years of the

podcast this month. That's crazy. It really is so crazy. I was always like, are we going to make it to five, you know? And now it's like, are we going to make it to 10? Yeah. What else are we going to do? All right.

Let's thank our partners. We're not going anywhere. Thanks to Article. Get a beautiful new sofa, dining table, or bed at article. And thank you to Liquid Ivy. Get 20% off your first order at Liquidive. with code GGE. And thank you to Revolve.

Get 15% off your first order at Revolve.com slash GGE with code GGE. And I'll just say this really quickly. Ashley and I own a sexual wellness brand called Vibes Only. We have tons of amazing high-end vibrators for couples solo, gift your friends. We have lube. We have handcuffs. We have massage oil candles, all kinds of stuff. So if you guys want to have just like a spicy, sexy Valentine's Day by yourself

or with your partner, Vibesonly.com. And the last day for ground shipping is this week. It's February 5th. beautiful packaging. The best. You feel really excited to gift to somebody. Extra sexy packaging.

Yes. Give somebody orgasms. That's what they really want. So you started your tour. We are recording this beforehand, but I'm sure it was great. I'm sure it was great. And you're with me all weekend,

and I'm sure it was great. That's hope. Something terrible happens where I have to come back in. Something terrible will probably happen, but it will be privately in your hotel room. That'll be amazing. I hope a lot of terrible things.

happen in my hotel. Terrible things. Disgusting things. Disgusting things, you guys. Stay tuned. Yeah, we'll let you know. We were at our friend's Bachelorette this weekend. Also, Alyssa Moroso, who is a former guest of the show. So we'll tell you about it next week. Yeah, yeah. If there's anything we need to recap, we will do it then. Yeah, but thanks for coming and, you know, continue to give me your money, reinaigreebred.com. Yes. We have NEDRA today. Oh, my queen. This will be our third time when Nudger, and it's the first time in person. We had her virtually, and she walked in, and I was like, What are you wearing? She's such a style queen.

So watch on YouTube to see her outfit, and I have since bought it. You really went home and bought it? Yeah. So I was like, what designer is she wearing that is like inaccessible to the average person? Like it looked so couture. Also, I'm just like, we have a lot of guests show up looking like a wonderful, full outfit, heels. She had like heels on. She looked great, hair done, makeup done.

I don't show up looking like that to other pockets, and I feel bad. We dress way better than we used to. I can't believe what we used to wear. Every day I put in clothing and I'm like, I cannot believe what I used to report. I know. And, you know, we did start the podcast without video. So maybe if we would have, I don't know. But even when we started doing video, I was still just really slum in it.

For years. I don't regret it because it's the growth. I was comfy. You've been able to be on the journey with us. But her outfit, it's gap. It's like this gap studio thing. I was able to find it. It was on sale, like 70% off.

final sale. So catch me in Nedra's outfit. You guys, check it out on YouTube. And I just don't think I'm going to be able to pull it off like her. I was saying like, we just have different bodies, different looks. Like, I don't know. I'm just like, I feel like I'm going to put it on and be like, God damn it. You know I like an all gene set. I love a gene jumpsuit. Yeah. Is it gene? It's like, it's denim. Yeah. But the mat, the print. I mean, and she had a heel with it. I just silver heels. I'm saying people come looking like really nice to record with us. It is crazy when you see somebody in something. You like, I'll buy that right now. I'll buy it now. I'm copying you exactly. Yeah, Lindsay Simpsic, when we recorded with

the almost 30 girls, those reformation pants with the studs down the side, it's like immediate bad to cart. Yes. It is so flattering. And it's like, you know, you and I do that too, and we try not to wear the same thing on the same day, but it's just like, that's girlhood. We haven't shown up in the same outfit in a while. I know. Do you think we're at a stiles change? Or our period's not synced up anymore? That's crazy. I don't get a period anymore. Okay. I have to read you this thing. Okay. I'm just curious what you would have done. on. Okay. And I can't decide if this makes me an asshole or not. Okay. So I get a text from this guy. I've not seen his name and like, I mean, I want to say 14 or 15 years. I want a one date with him in New York

City. Do I know about this at all? No. I want a one, no, you know nothing. I want on one date with this guy. It was sort of a weird date and then I'd see him here and there in New York, but we never, I think we both mutually were like, I don't fuck with you. And that was that. He's gotten married and had a kid since then. Okay. So I got a text from him the other day. What? And it said, hey, I have an actual work emergency, so I'm leaving now. It says 28 minutes. I'm very sorry.

I really hope to get there earlier today. And I was like, I don't need to respond to this. I don't care. Yeah. I don't need to be like, this is not for me. But it's so interesting for you to get that because of your name. Like, I am way more prone to get something like that with Ashley. Totally.

What other Raina do you have? Raina or Greenberg and like 4-1-2 from Pittsburgh. Like, it's not a major, it's a major city, but it's not a top 15 city. in the country. No, but you were programmed in his phone because he didn't just pull up an old 4-1-2 number from 15 years ago. Yeah, like your name was in his phone. Okay, two days later. Hey, be there around 815 for breakfast, hope that's okay. Wait, oh, what? What? He keeps going. So I, again, I'm just like, I don't need to respond to this. I don't care about this. No, what? Okay. I have medicine. Having a stroke. A couple weeks later, he goes on.

No, Rayna, what is happening? Hey, sorry, but looking like 820 for arrival, would love to still breakfast if possible. Wait, no. Why is it always the breakfast? What's he just, was the first one breakfast too? This has been three breakfast. The first one was not breakfast. The second one was breakfast. The third was breakfast. I still am not responding. And he, by the way, whoever he's texting is not responding. I know. Which is you, but I'm saying whoever he thinks he's texting. It's not, it's not responding to him. So he isn't like picking up any context clues. Like, when you got there was there breakfast? Did they go to breakfast? When you talk to the person, did they say, I never got your text? Are you text? Right. This is an unsolved mystery.

I got a fourth text. No. The same, a different day. Last week. Okay. He says a guy's name. So I won't see what the name is, but John. John is just waking up now.

So we will not be there for breakfast today. Not breakfast again. How many breakfast dates is this guy going on? Likely we'll be there closer to 8.30. Wait, every day is it. What time he's showing? Who is he having breakfast with? And he's going with his wife?

So I text this to Jeremy. I go, this fucking idiot. Why is he texting me about breakfast? this every day. Jeremy knows him. Jeremy knows him too. Okay. I'm like, he's fucking idiot.

Jeremy, without hesitating, it's clearly about his son. And it washes over me. He thinks he's texting his son's school about his kids' breakfast. And this is the kid's name. He's just waking up now. So we'll be there.

We're going to be missing breakfast this morning. It never. I still don't know what you're saying. I think he thinks he's texting his son's. school. School? Hey, he's just waking up today. We don't need to do breakfast.

Okay. Okay, Jeremy. What are you a dad now? What are you a parent? You are inside the minds of parents. Okay, so how did it get from Raina to the school? I don't, I'm just like, he'll figure it out. I'm not going to, I did feel a little bad because I, like, realized this was some kid's school,

and I want the kid to have breakfast. Right. This kid's starving. you aren't responding. Thursday a couple days ago. We'd be there by 8.10. Not sure if he will miss breakfast, but he will if you're not okay with waiting. Okay.

So he is texting something that does not typically get a response, obviously. That's the only reason he would keep doing it. I guess. But like when you got there, didn't you realize there was or wasn't breakfast? And like, isn't it such a dad move to just keep texting this school? Wait, you had not responded yet? I didn't respond to the last one. You did?

No, I didn't. have not yet responded. I have not responded. Did Jeremy say you should respond? He said I'm being an asshole. He was like you're being an asshole. But like, I don't know. Listen, I'm not trying to starve this kid of breakfast, but like shouldn't this dad?

Also, is he trolling? You think he's just trying to get back with you? He's like, I'm a dad that cares about my kid and make sure he has breakfast. But I can't be on time. It's the most important male to day. What if I wrote him back? I'm like, sorry. It's really giving me the heck that you can't be on time.

So seriously, like you're a shitty parent. Figure your shit out. Pull it together. Your kid needs to eat. Like, I hope John's okay. Like, I'm calling child protective services. You are not feeding your child. That's why texting back the number for CBS.

You have to say, I think this is a wrong number because for me, for the audience. Like, we all want to know what happens. Like, because you know he's going to say, oh, sorry, I thought you were the school. But now I'm too deep. Like, now I've gotten so many texts. I'm like really an asshole. No, it makes it funnier. It's all makes it funnier.

Now I'm going to be like, I think you have the wrong number. You've texted me six times. You're busy. He's still the one that's going to be embarrassed here. I wouldn't worry about that. Also, I'm confused because, like, I'm pretty sure, like, every school district is different, but are teachers giving out their personal cell phone numbers? And if so, like, then why are, you, you aren't getting a response.

No, but everything is, like, text these days. I think it's crazy. Like, stores are texting me all the time. Are you finding this? Yeah. Like, randomly when I'm shopping in New York, when I shopped at Mage and then Rag and Bone, they're texting the salesperson that helped me is texting me, which I think is a little out of pocket.

I don't think you should be able to text me. I didn't sign up for text, but I'm getting personal messages from the store. My point is just like restaurants, like everything is like text. So it feels like he's texting this is like the way a hotel texts you when you're in the hotel. You think it's an automated service. Not automated. Like it's going somewhere.

but it's not something that's texting back. I guess I'm kind of going off on a tangent because I've been meaning to ask you. Are you getting texts from fucking stores? Yeah, but that doesn't feel weird to me. That's just like you're just in their system now. But I didn't tell you you could text me, rag and bone. I think it automatically, like, when you pay for something,

I think it automatically links it. But they're personal. Hey, Ashley, it was so, it was great to help you find those jeans. Man, I didn't give you my number. A personal staff member is texting you? Yes, and this one lady at, like one of the, was it, was it Mage, I think, which we had a great.

Is that how you say that store? Shopping experience. Modge? I'm asking you. I have no idea. I would never be brave enough to say that word out loud. You're so brave. I appreciate it.

We had a nice, she really helped me style something. But she was like, hey, this is so-and-so, come back to see you next time. Like, I'm like,

wait, don't make me respond to that. I don't, I have enough. That's got to be automated, though, because that's who's logged into the system

when they're checking out. Not automated at all. It was completely personalized. It's my name, her name, and what I bought. Yeah, but that's automated.

logged in to the store and they know who checked you out and they know what you bought because of the receipt. Let me read it. I know that you like these personalized emails. I know you like them for our company too. Wait, wait. Don't insult me. Do you like them? Let's have people weigh in on everything. Here it is. Okay. Hello Ashley. Yeah. Stop. You used your credit card? Let me finish. Are you going to let me finish? Are you going to let me finish? I'm going to let you finish. But Beyonce had one of the best albums. You're not even ready. Okay. Hello Ashley. Thank you for stopping in a shop with us. it was great meeting you. I hope the comedy special taping went well. Please see us again the next time you were in the neighborhood, Nancy.

Okay, I'm corrected. How much did you talk to this person? You know how crazy that whole thing was, me trying to find pants. Yeah, and then I didn't end up wearing them, but Nancy was so wonderful. I kept the pants. I've since worn them, but like they were like my backup pants that I was going to wear. It's a whole thing when you guys see it eventually, one of these days. It's a whole thing. I told me a second.

I was like, wait, what? They're like, oh, right, you shot a special months ago. No, I promise. But no, so, like, we were on a journey together. I went in there one day. We picked him out. I told her to hold him, and I went back and got him. Like, Nancy and I were like this,

and I really do appreciate your touching base. That is crazy. But I'm telling you, that's personal. No, that's really, like, that's taking it too far. Well, I don't want to insult that. I had a great experience. Apparently, this is not, this is the norm. I mean, I have stores that will text me and say, like,

Hey, Raina, thanks for buying, whatever the fuck. Text stop to have us stop doing this. This is just somebody's cell phone number. Did you invite her to your special taping? Like, what happened? I probably. And let me see the Ragamow one. And again,

I had a great experience and I appreciated the text, honestly. I just am like wondering if people... Okay, this is not happening to me. I'm not that friendly. I think people probably would assume I'm friendly or I'm not. Okay, but anyway, let me know if that's happening to you guys.

But again, that's not a dig towards that. I did appreciate. Like, we were, we developed a relationship over those couple days in my desperate times. Yeah. Sometimes you just feel closer to like a store employee

and they touch you. But obviously they are allowed to do that. No, it happens with Allison Olivia all the time. I've been in Alice and Olivia with you and you will become friends with every person in the store. Every time I leave Alice and Olivia, hey girl, great helping you out today. Come back and see us. I'm telling you, this is happening all the time. People like you, you're very friendly in those stores. The Austin, Allison Olivia, you and Zach were sick as thieves. I was like, can we go?

I feel like that's how I got that friends and family list. You two were kicking in that store for 30 minutes. I was like, can we leave? Yeah, again, I just, I don't. mind it. I just didn't know if like I thought there might be like a privacy concern that they're just texting customers. But let us know in the comments and then also let us know what you guys think about what Raina's dealing with. I need to know, I need the parents to weigh in. Some people are going to be mad at me and be like, this is a kid and he needs to eat. Obviously he's eating.

But like, and listen, and I know that we're all proud of a dad for like doing something. We're proud of him for like driving his kid to school. Like yay, clap for the dads for like doing something that moms do every day. But I don't know. I just, I don't feel like texting this guy back. Just do it because I want to hear what he has to say. And now we have to do a follow up next week. You want to say, sorry, what do I say?

Hey, LOL, this is the wrong number. It's just you had to throw an LOL in. Hey, this is the wrong. Hey, I think you have the wrong number, L.O.L. Now I'm all mixed up. Okay, I think you have. You're watching what she's doing right now. I've never seen you try to do this.

You're trying to keep the mic between your tits. Rain is Titty fucking the mic while she texts this guy back. LOL feels so rude. No. Really? Oh, I was doing it to soften. I think you were the wrong number. L.

L.O.S. You guys. L.O.L. right? Okay. It's sent. Did it turn blue? It says deliberate and it's blue.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. I don't know. I was just curious what he was texting. What dads are using these days? We should ask Jeremy. The way Jeremy was like, obviously that somebody's kid. How is that?

to you. I'm really smart and a woman and it was not obvious to me. Wait, and a woman. Like, we're usually not. Like, I'm the one that would have the kid. Oh, I see what you're saying. I thought you meant those two didn't go together. Like, guys, I'm really smart and I know I'm a woman. So it's crazy. You know us with our stupid, silly woman brains. Can't figure out anything. Okay. Well, we have one more email that we have had in the inbox for a while that we really want to discuss. Should we go over it? I'm not reading it. Yeah. Okay. Sorry, she's so smart.

Okay, so. You guys know how to read? That's how my jobbier? I liked the, um, the intro about you. What? The intro part about you. Oh, is it? Was it about me?

I think it just said something like sparkle eyes, something, something, something. Okay. Said something about Boston. Oh, yeah, it is about me. I'll definitely read that part. Okay. All right. I was trying to find the subject line.

The subject line is sleeping in slash waking up early in relationships. You posted this in the outline. you took out the part about me. Well, I just wanted to get to the point. I'm going to go back to you. No. There's a Delaware connection. She's been to the show in Boston where I met Shishonk.

So anyway, she's a long time fan. We love when you guys also say those nice things when you emails and stuff. Listen, I was letting us digest it privately. Anyway, she says, I know you guys have talked about this before, but I'd be interested. Have we? I don't know. I mean, maybe not really in depth. So buckle up.

Okay. I've talked about this before, but I'd be interested to see what your followers think about sleep. It's necessary. Never matter. Yeah. I've been with my fiancee for 11 years. We're getting married this July and I'm so in love with him.

That said, am I toxic because I legit love getting up early? I love starting the day when the sun rises. And I jump out of bed every morning because I love life so much. What a brag. I love life so much. In 2020, 26, do you? But this 31 year old man can literally sleep until new. Okay, they've been together since they were 20, by the way.

Like, he's 31. So, I mean, this is like a, I find that fascinating together when you're 20. You're going to get married. You're in your 30s. This 31-year-old man can literally sleep until noon. And when we were in college, that was fine because everyone did. And I was the outlier who wanted to start my day. But now that we're real adults, I feel frustrated that I'm jumping out of bed early to rock and roll.

And he needs a reason to be up in order to emerge earlier than 9 a.m. Most Saturdays, if we have to leave the house by 10 a.m. For a planned event, I have to wake him up. This is the only part of life where I feel like I'm parenting this person. He is otherwise self-sufficient, self-starting, and can do life. life on his own. We just get to be partners in it. I recently read an article called the oppression of mourning people and how we're so

annoying. So I need to know, am I annoying? Like, should I just let this man sleep and be happy? I got a good one instead of finding the one thing I don't understand to nitpick. Or is it fair to question why my man isn't jumping out of bed to live life like I am. I'd be interested to hear what your listeners think. If this is the only problem? Truly, if this is the only thing, you dig deep and you ask yourself, I mean, for her to write,

I am so in love with him after a. 11 years, it is rare. It's rare. Listen, I like to get up really early. I get up 6 o'clock on the weekdays, 7.30 on the weekends. I like to get up really early. I like the morning when no one's talking to me, but that's my version of rest. Like, I go to sleep early early too. So like my version of relaxation recharging is go to bed early, get up early.

That's not everybody's version of relaxation. I think that like sleep is so important and feeling like you've distressed from the week. I don't know what his job is. But if this is really the only problem, I understand her feeling. like, man, this sucks. This is the only couple days we get together and you're asleep all day. Yeah. I mean, I have so many things to say.

And Rain and I talked about this privately too. And it would be tough to be with somebody that really, and I'm not as early. I'm not a morning person. I'm not as up as early as you. But it would be tough to be with somebody who wanted to sleep till noon. Noon is not the same as 10. As 10.

Yeah. She's saying she has to wake him up if they have to do something at 10. Here's my question. Does he get up easily or is he like grumbling and he wants to sleep more? Like, is he an easygoing guy? Like, does he know that, like, sometimes he has to get up early and do stuff with you? I also wonder what their nights are like. Is she going to bed a lot earlier?

I mean, I'm curious with everything about their week. And if they do both work traditional nine to five jobs and then they only have the weekends together, I mean, vacations, this is when it would bother me. We've talked about this before. Like, I do get up earlier on vacations, traditional vacations where not just like work trips. Like, but I want to experience and do things. and maximize my time. But she's that really early person.

Like we have that friend in our college friends group. Like even when we were all waking up so hungover, like Alex was up and she'd been on a run. And she is that person that like, love her to death. She's like, she knows she's that person. And she's not waking anybody else up. But when this girl asks, like, am I annoying? It's like we all have that friend.

I don't find it annoying at all. But when we would all wake up, Alex is in the kitchen with her. her running clothes on and has been on a run. And I think it's like she knows she's got to get up early and she's going to do stuff before the rest of the world wakes up. And I guess my advice to her is how she can reframe her mornings. Like can she just kind of tell herself like, I've been with this man for 11 years. I'm going to be with him until the end of time.

Like those mornings are my solo time and I really want to savor them. Like you wake up and you do your stuff and you like being alone. Like can she reframe it to be like I like that he's sleeping in because I get to do these things for myself. And then I'm curious what the rest of their day looks like. Like once he gets out of bed, is he willing to go do stuff? Like, is he like a lazy guy? It doesn't really sound like that.

It sounds like it's just the getting up. Yeah, I mean, some people have the ability to sleep until noon. I've never been like that. And like all my friends that have had partners like that, they make brunch plans with other friends. And they make coffee plans and take walks. And I love the advice of just like, that's your solo time. You should enjoy it. Yeah.

I guess I'm curious if they live in a house or an apartment. Yeah. Because like, I live in a house now. I can be downstairs making all the noise in the world. And I don't really hear it upstairs. like when somebody stays with me, if somebody gets up before me. Like, you don't hear stuff. But like an apartment, it would be like out of the question for me in my New York apartments

to like turn on the TV and cook and do stuff because you're like bothering somebody. Oh, that's the worst if she feels like she has to tiptoe around. But if I were to guess, I don't think she feels like that. I think he thinks he knows he's going to sleep in and she's up. And I'm sure she's able to get up and live her life. I like what you said too. Like if you are that person, get up, find a friend to go have breakfast with. But my question is just how he is the rest of the time.

She says he's self-sufficient, self-starting and can do life on his own. If she's asking if it's a red flag that he's a night person that he wants to sleep in, no. There's all these studies that show that sometimes more creative people are night people. Like, does he go to bed at 9 p.m? and he has to sleep till noon? He might need to see a doctor. But does he stay up late and he wakes up late? It's just sometimes how we're wired. Like I have really worked on it, but I know that naturally I am a person that functions

better staying up a little later and not waking up at the crack of dawn. I'll never do it. My body rejects it completely when I have to wake up that early. It doesn't even really matter how much sleep I've had. I feel sick when I have to get up so early for a flight. I've realized what's the earliest I can even take a flight these days at this age that I can function the next day. Like I don't know. It's just kind of who we are, how we're built. I wonder what time they go to sleep at night too. I know. Did she go to sleep a little bit earlier with him? And like, this is just one of those things that I'm like, when people say to me, like we don't, we had an episode last week about fighting, like, we don't have any disagreements at all.

Like, I'm always like, you're not like a little annoyed at somebody every once in a while. Like, to me, this is just like something that's a little bit annoying about your partner. But like, we're all a little bit annoying. So is this the only annoying thing about him? Yeah. Or does she feel like he actually doesn't want to live life to the fullest? He can totally be a person that loves life. He just wants to start life at 10 a.m. Like, it doesn't necessarily mean that.

But she has to ask herself that. Like, am I writing this email and trying to get advice from these girls because my question is deeper than this? And I'm just kind of masking it with the morning stuff or not. So that's for her to decide. But if this really is it and once he gets up, he's reliable and he'll go do stuff, then I don't think it's certainly a deal breaker of this 11-year relationship. I'm curious what his job is too. Like, I think about something like my brother who gets up at like 4.30, 5 o'clock in the morning to go to work. He works in finance. And then doesn't get home till like 6 p.m. Like my brother is like out at work for like 12 hours a day. And so on the weekends, like if somebody wants to sleep in, you have to just kind of let them,

that's like their recharge time. And it would annoy me if somebody was constantly like, get up, get up, get up, because like I deserve to relax as much as you do. Yeah, totally. I mean, I do want to validate, though, that this can be an issue in relationships. I mean, with Shishonk, like, he was going in at nine and that worked really well for us. He wants to get up at like 7.30. And then we were having that coffee together in the morning. It was like really nice. And now he is going in at eight and we don't do that anymore. Like I am getting up sometimes when he's leaving. Like I like to be up and moving by eight.

I try. And he's gone. So we just had to be like we're not doing that unless things change. Like I can't get up at at seven or six 30. Like just I, that doesn't work for me. Yeah, you're on the night shift. Yeah. And so we're, you know, we still go to bed together.

nine nights out of ten, but it's just kind of like, I don't know, if he had to get up every morning at 5.30 and the alarm went off and it woke me up and I had trouble going back to sleep, it would be a real problem. I also like, again, I'm not suggesting they have any problems. If this is the only problem, Gregor for you, you're killing it. It's amazing to have been with somebody for that many years from the time you were 20 because like she's saying like this used to be a different lifestyle choice. Everybody in college in your early 20s is kind of like a piece of trash and you sleep all day. And I think that's the hard part about relationships like that was when you meet somebody, they're just in a very different stage of life and you hope to

grow up together. And some people do hit that age where they're just like, we just are in, we're in different phases of life, kind of. Yeah. And we talked about this with drinking recently when you do get together this young. And let's just say you're drinking and partying a lot. And then you grow up and one person stays in that drinking, partying, getting drunk, blacking out, being hungover lifestyle. The other person doesn't. And you, you grow up. And, can you work that out? And this is, I mean, we just are not who we are in our 20s versus our 30s versus our 40s and so on. So if they really have grown together since 20 and everything else is aligned and she can still say I'm so in love with him and she's really excited to marry him and like this is it.

I would say just figure out how you have to reframe your mornings, let him live and good luck. I agree. We solved it. Good luck out there. Okay. All right. Well, let's just thank our partners and then we'll get into it with Nedra. Yes, this show is sponsored by Liquid Ivy. We are such fans of it. So this is going to be your maximum hydration. It is scientifically formulated to support physical energy, hydration, focus, mood, and social stamina. It has natural caffeine and electrolytes, five essential vitamins, fast hydration, and three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink. So you were just going to rip open a stick. of Liquid Ivy and put it in your glass of 16 ounces of water. We like really ice cold water. And so we always share our personal experiences with Liquid Ivy. Raina put them all in the gift

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what are you shopping for right now on Revolve? I just ordered actually the entirety of my tour outfits from Revolve. Totally. I feel you on that. We're going to a bachelor rep party who we've just gone back from. And I just want like different cute tops for the tour. So I just did like a giant haul. There's obviously tons of brands and styles.

And there is nothing better than. their shipping time, which is two days usually, and their customer support. I mean, I love all of it. It's the best. Yeah. So for Alyssa's Bachelorette, she did some themes and just color, nothing crazy, but like one night was like a neutrals and nudes theme, which I was obsessed with. So I got right on a revolve and searched by brown and beige and whatever.

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drama-free. I think soon to be three-time New York Times. Bestseller of her new book, The Balancing Act. Please welcome to the show, My Boundaries Queen, Nedra Glover Toab. Thank you for having me. Such a warm. welcome. You should wake me up in the morning. I need to record that. You should. You could be like my alarm. Like the opposite of the calm app. The get hype app. Wake the fuck up, bitch. You got your third bestseller in the way. Now direct, I feel like I tell you this every time we record. I probably quote you the most of any get. You and Esther Perel, the most of any guess. You think that that's accurate? A hundred percent. Just in conversation all the time I talk

about you. I think you've changed Raina's life. Yeah. That's not a joke. Go laugh. Who was she before me? Exactly. I mean, was she even Raina? No. I don't remember pre-Nedra, Raina. Right.

Who does? Yeah. You did fix a lot of stuff. Like if a week has gone by and she hasn't brought you up for the last three years, two years. I appreciate it. Yes. Yes. Well, I'm sure you've changed a lot of people's lives.

And I joke that you're the Boundaries Queen, but like you really taught us and a nation about boundaries and this has become such a buzzword. And then your follow-up book was specifically Bounder. with family members. And this is kind of a pivot, the balancing act. And it's, well, tell us about it. Tell us about the book and the pivot into sort of a new topic. And the inspiration.

A pivot. I see it as an integration of how to do boundaries and dependency well. Great. Because I think that there is this idea that for some of us, that boundaries apply to everybody in every single way and all the time. And in this book, I am saying there are actually healthy ways to be dependent. There are things that we have to do as a byproduct of being in a relationship with people. It's not always convenient.

It's not always fun. But it needs to be done. Yes, codependency is not always great. But aren't we happy when the codependent has someone else and not us? Like, they need people too. You know, so I think we need to look at this as a fuller picture. in terms of boundaries and not just like boundaries for me and no one else. So I do some talking about like, what if a friend wants space with you? What if your partner wants some space? You know, we have heard

so much about like, I need, I need, I need. We're in community. And unfortunately, we're in a loneliness epidemic, not just because of boundaries, but, you know, we're more inside. The world is more virtual. and we are just losing connection. So I want to help people feel better connected without the stress of, I don't know how I'm going to be in this relationship because I either go in with no boundaries or I'm codependent or I have this problem. Like, you can do it. I'm rooting for you.

You can be in these relationships without losing your mind. Well, we have a lot to talk about, especially on the dependency, healthy dependency, codependency. But since you brought it up, let's talk. about this concept that we discussed on an episode a few weeks back about everyone wants a village, but no one wants to be a villager. And we want to ask you, Boundaries Queen, are people overboundaryed? Some people are. I've never seen this old do this in the middle of an episode. I know. I have that effect. Yeah. It's the outfit. In some instances, we are over boundary. But I also think that

when we haven't practiced something, we go at it very hard. And there's this like high and then we sort of like smooth out. And many of us, because boundaries is such a new practice and we're like, yes, I have the juice now and we're giving everybody the boundary. We're not doing it softly. Sometimes we're doing it aggressively and not assertively. We're overdoing it in some instances. So it does happen.

But I would say it's a good thing to have boundaries. It always has been. do think we need to consider who what we're how. Well, we asked you if someone just doesn't want to show up to your birthday party, is that a boundary? Like where's the misuse coming in for when it comes to not showing up for your community? So if I, Nedra Tawa was to not show up to a friend's party, I would one, send them a message with the reason why.

Two, I would let them, well, before that, I would let them know in advance. So you are already not expecting me there. And two, I want to let you know why, because I care about this relationship. I'm not coming just because I don't want to be there. I'm not coming because I'm out of or I have something else booked that day that I can't get out of. And three, one of the things that I think is really important is repair. So if I'm not coming to your birthday party, hey girl, can we grab a coffee next week? Can we have dinner separately?

I still want to celebrate your birthday. I just won't be able to make this thing. What ruins relationships is, and I've been in this situation, people no call, no show. They no call, no show. They act like nothing happened. Then they're texting you. Have you watched his and hers? You ain't even come to my birthday party.

I didn't forget it. I'm so confused. Like, yeah. You have to keep your people in the first. foe. You have to keep them in the loop. And these are not toxic relationships. Like I think some boundaries apply to toxic situations, toxic relationships. But if you're applying a boundary where it doesn't need to be, you're not using it for its intended purpose. Some people are a little fast and loose. And I mean, it's a real trigger for me, like when we have live shows and we include

people in it. We get people tickets and we invite them. And like, it's happened once or twice to me with a friend that like the night of the show, they're like, hey, girl, I can't come. And anyways, have a great show and I'm like, are you going to apologize to me? Yeah. Taking money out of my pocket, taking a seat away from somebody that would have used it, treating something that's important to me, like it doesn't matter. All those things really, but like, yeah, you could cancel plans on me if you do it ahead time and not when I'm about to walk on stage and act like you don't care.

Yeah. Is that a trigger from me? Yeah, I lost a friendship once because I had a friend who was always on her way to the thing, but never showed up. That's crazy. What happened, girl on the way? Are you alive? But was she on, she wasn't really on her way.

Yeah, like, hey, I'm on my way. It's like, but she never showed up. Like, what happened on the way? So after she did that a few times, she lost her invite privilege. Yeah. You're no longer on the list. And then that's when she's like, hey, you didn't invite me to the thing. And I had to say very clearly, you don't show up.

Right. You don't show up. And that's not an insult. That's just the facts. And that doesn't mean I don't want to be your friend anymore. So here's the thing. I think sometimes we have these. conflicts and instead of it just being a conflict, we take it as the relationship is over. No, no.

You're just not invited because you have not proven that you'll show up. If you want to regain privileges, you need to work on that. I don't need to help you through that because a lot of times if I'm planning something, I'm accounting for food. I'm accounting for entertainment sometimes. you know, like these things cost. So you not showing up still cost me $100. Right. Because I have to pay this person in advance. What do I say?

Hey, hey, that money that I gave you give me something back. They're not coming. No. But like some people I think are like, it's my boundary. And it's like, this is just a crack of shit. Don't therapy language me into your bad behavior. Or you're just tired or you had a long day. But that's life.

Like that's what we talked about in our podcast. Like, we understand if you are going to show up to a social event and have a panic attack. But if you just are a little tired or it's a minor inconvenience, I'm still showing up. I want to be the friend that shows up if it's not the thing I want to do the most in that moment. Well, two things here. One thing is I recently had a friend, and I already knew this about her, but I'm so happy she said it. I do not invite her to things where it's going to be 10 or more people. personality-wise, I know she's going to dislike it.

It's not her vibe. So recently, she said to me, if it's going to be other people there, I don't want to go. So just include me for one-on-one things, which is on brand for her because she will, she'll let you know in advance. She'll give you some reason. She follows up with an independent thing. She does all the right protocol. But after a while, it's just like she doesn't want to be here.

She doesn't want to be at a large gathering. She's like, I prefer a one-on-one experience. So she doesn't care about being invited to the birthday party, the dinner. She's like, I don't want to be here anyway. Please don't make me come. Exactly. And for her, it's like, I feel our connection one-on-one and not with 14 people around and you're going and you're talking and I do-da-da-da-da-da.

And I'm okay with that because I have other friends who will come to every single thing. I'm not saying that every friend has to do the same thing. connection is very deep despite her not doing that. Totally. The other thing is, what is a boundary? It is a need. I wouldn't say it's necessarily a rule, but it's something to keep you safe and comfortable in your relationships with other people.

I think sometimes when you have a preference, is the preference a need? Is this a rule that maybe you have or is it a boundary? And I think there needs to be some distinction in how you're saying it. But the boundary of I won't come to your party, but I go to other parties, is that really a boundary? Or is that a preference for your party in particular? And if so, can we communicate something about that? We love that. Yeah.

I can talk about this for the rest of the time. But we want to talk about your book. So the book is about creating healthy dependency. So could you maybe talk a little bit about what is, what's quote, quote, healthy versus non-healthy? And then we can get into the subcategories of like codependency. But broadly, what does dependency look like? And I do really want your definition of codependency because I feel like I still can't seem to get a grasp on that word. Well, let's talk about healthy and unhealthy and like getting into these like subtopics.

Yeah. Well, codependency is when you are helping in a counterproductive way to another person. There is some emotional tie to that situation. that really gets in the way of your growth and the other person's growth. The word codependency became popular from the AA community, right? So it became a thing in that community around like people who have helped us stay addicts are codependent with us. And sometimes I've been codependent in helping people in their addiction.

So I'm giving them money. I am, you know. Enabling? enabling. So it sort of came out of that branch of things. However, we can be codependent in other ways. You can be codependent in a friendship. You can give people so much advice that you're like, oh, my gosh, every time they have a

problem, they have to call me in. I'm on the phone for four hours, problem solving. So that can also be codependency. So it's really attached to a negative or unhealthy behavior of some sort. enmeshment would be another form of not necessarily codependency, but an unhealthy dependency. Inmeshment, I will say, is only problematic when the people start to pull apart from each other. So it's really not a problem until you, like, go home and you meet your partner's family and you find out that he sleeps in a bed with his mom.

Right. Okay. And we do want to talk about enmeshed families and friendships. Yeah. And you're like, oh, wow. Or you notice that they have this whole cuddle situation going together on the, you know, on the couch. And you're like, wow, like we typically hold hands, but I didn't know you like really get in there with your mom. Like, so then it's like, wow.

And it's like, yeah, this is how it is. And mom is calling all times of the day. And da, da, da, da, da. So that's when it starts to be a problem because now you're like, oh, my gosh, my partner cannot separate from his mom or from his family. So emmeshment is one of those things. where if two people agree to it, totally. No problem.

Yep. Yeah. It's not until one of the folks decides I want something different. Or typically when somebody else comes into that dynamic and it's like, what am I watching? Right. Someone challenges. Yeah, it's like, what am I seeing? So it's normal for your mom to cut your food.

We're like brothers and sisters. Brothers and sisters. Best friends. I see a lot of best friends. I mean, Ashley and I are business part. We're so amished in each other's lives. we have the same friend groups. I spent holidays with her family and we're in business together almost a decade.

We have a second business. Yeah, it would be a real problem for me if I didn't like like her partner. I mean, it's my worst nightmare in the world that like I wouldn't like love the person she was married to. But I mean, the scenario I feel like you see more often would have been that he came around whether you liked him or not and you were really jealous and you were like calling me all the time where are you like it's just and we've all seen that. And I think that happens a lot when you're younger too.

This happened not at all by this way. I'm just kind of the scenario. would have been you freaking out. Yeah. Which you did. Like Regina George, and she was like, and then all of a sudden in seventh grade, I got a boyfriend. And she was like, why didn't you call me back?

Yeah. She was in love with me, right? I can see that and like friendships with people that are very close. There's more to the unhealthy. I think those are some of the things we're more familiar with, but also on the unhealthy spectrum is hyper independence. When we do not accept help, we do not ask for help, we have this. spirit of DIY.

Okay. Anything that needs to be done, I can do it. I am self-sufficient. And what happens in those cases is when you actually need someone, you struggle to find anybody because you have disconnected so much or you are just without resources. Do you think that comes from people that, like, grew up in a household where, like, help wasn't available to them. So they became super independent.

Sometimes, but I think all our wounds aren't always childhood. But maybe that could be it. But what if you were in, I don't know, a dating scenario where your partner made you feel that way? And so now going forward, you like question it about yourself. Like I think there's any sort of traumatic impact that could have happened to sort of change the way that you open your arms to people. And sometimes it is really a protection because you have been hurt by people, whether that's

the family or other folks. And so it may seem easier. It may seem more appropriate for you to figure it out rather than lean on other people or go to them for any support. I love that you said that it's not just from your parents and that a partner can rock your sense of self because I had a girlfriend recently who were friends with and a relationship and her ex said to her,

like, you're totally dependent on me and I have to do everything for you. And it really rocked her sense of self. And I was like, that's not what you're like. This is how this person has made you feel. But you're so independent. You're so, I mean, she's, just, I don't know, I like that you said that a partner can rock your sense of self, because that's how they see you through that lens, but that's not how we see her at all.

Yeah. Helpless. I mean, and like, I can see a world in which maybe innately someone has always been super independent and they finally let the walls down and they leaned on someone and they got burned. And I mean, you would just never want to do it again, whether it was a family member or a friend or a partner where you're like, okay, I'm going to be vulnerable. I'm going to reach my hand out and ask for help. and you felt some sort of like it wasn't what you expected or you felt rejected.

So I can understand why you wouldn't want to do that again. Well, different people, if we're meeting different people, we're not dating the same person. We're not meeting the same friend. We can't get that sister or that brother again in this lifetime. If we're meeting new people, there is the potential for us to practice what we learned. You are aware of those indicators of a person who will use certain things. to their advantage and not yours. You are aware of a person who will maybe call you needy or do these things.

So I understand that our natural reaction is just to retreat and to forget that we even have that need because it's been, you know, thrown in our face or it's been abused or we haven't figured it out. But, you know, I think it's really important to reclaim that we can be needy. And that's a healthy thing. when I think about neediness, like, you know, I'll have a client here and there will be like, am I being too needy? And I'm like, it depends on the person you're talking to.

Some people love to talk on a phone every day and that's not needy at all. Others do not. So I don't want you to feel like that behavior is inappropriate. For some people, it doesn't work. It doesn't mean they're bad people. But if you have enough people in your life, you won't even notice a person who doesn't like that thing because you have seven other people to talk to. Right. The village.

You need the village. That's so true. I mean, there are people. I don't read myself as needy, but like there's probably some people that would see my need to send all these voice notes all day long. Talk about all my thoughts and feelings. As needy or annoying, that's not true. That's not my person. And some people love them.

And people generally love them for me. Like, I love this point. You know how you can act with certain friends. Yeah. Like I'm thinking of the way that we, again, we're best friends. Let's just take us out of it. I have friends that, I have a friend that like she's just, she's bad on text and she's not always available. and I really love her and I can rely on her.

But if I thought I could text and voice note with her all day the way I do with you, I would be sorely mistaken. Like I would be rejected and let down. So we all kind of have to pick up on the way people to communicate and want to be your friend. Yes. And if you're not getting enough, you're not getting anything at all and you feel like someone, you can't rely on somebody that's different. But I think the communication is, I think about that.

I have friends. I'm like, I can't be like that with that. That would be crazy. Sometimes I've beaten a dead horse so much with one audience and I need to move on to a new audience. Yeah, I had someone tell me, you know, my expectation is that if people can't respond to a text, that they text me and say that they can't respond or look at it. And I was like, what? So they have to respond even if they can't to say they can't respond?

Yeah, it's like they ghosted me if I text you at 12 o'clock and I text you about this scenario and by 4 o'clock. you haven't said anything, you should at least look at it and say, I see this. I think you'd start to, I don't know, you start to pick up on people's communication. I have friends I've made here and they are slower to text. It might be a day, but they're doing other stuff. They're working. They have emails. Like I think I've learned to expect more that we don't get immediate responses from people

all the time. Sometimes I'm like, I have all these DMs and now you've given me in our project, I have to respond to all this. You decided to communicate with me. I did not communicate with you. And so sometimes I need to get through my day before I'm available to respond to this because you decided to communicate with me, not the other way around. Yeah. So it's really about managing our expectations and not putting that on other people to always fulfill our needs because of our expectations.

Like sometimes we have to adjust based on the person. It doesn't mean that they're toxic. It doesn't mean they're emotionally unavailable. But it might mean that they didn't have their phone in their hand for eight hours. Right. It might mean that, you know, they had a busy day and they want to decompress by not looking at a bunch of, you know, messages. Or they might not have an answer, you know, like I think when you're making plans, it's like sometimes people need to check their schedule. They need to see if they can make it. And some people might write, I'll get back to you and some people might not.

That's okay. I like this idea that we can show up as different people in different relationships too. And I wonder like what you would call this. But like I had one relationship when I was my early 20s who's like my first boyfriend in New York. And I've always been a pretty independent person. I figure things out myself. I think of myself as very like type A. But I had this boyfriend who was pretty controlling. He made the decisions for everywhere we went, where we would eat, all the things. I felt like he was, he made me feel like he was smarter than me. I do relate to this being a very young trait as well. I was 22 or 23 in this relationship. But I really became this version of myself that was so dependent on him for like my thoughts and feelings and my ideas. And I don't

identify as that. But like I suddenly needed to defer to another person for how I thought and felt. And that was really outside of my body. And I've never since or before experienced that. But I showed up as a different person in that relationship because of that person. And I guess that's codependency, kind of. Yes. It is codependency, but it brings me to thought about attachments, which I talk about in this book. And so, you know, a lot of people may believe that your attachment is fixed, right?

Like if you have an anxious attachment, that's how you are in every relationship and what you're saying is. different relationship, different me. There are some people who we meet in the world where they show up a certain way and we respond to that. He wanted to be the leader. He wanted to be in charge. He wanted to be the smarter person. So you showed up as this like, I don't know anything.

Yeah, and you went with that, right? So that doesn't mean you're always that way. It doesn't mean just because you're avoidant in one connection that you will always be avoided, that there is some flexibility in how we show up in spaces. I will say that with attachment styles that, you know, some of them do lend themselves to maybe a more hyperdependent or hyper-independent. When you think about like a disorganized or an anxious type of attachment, you're probably going to lean a bit more towards that codependency end of the spectrum. And when you're more avoidant, you're more hyper-independent, right? Like, yeah.

So, you know, what is the middle of that secure attachment? Mm-hmm. I think that's comforting for everybody to hear that you can kind of change your attachment style depending on your partner. So that type of relationship I want to discuss where let's just say you have a woman who's in a relationship and is feeling like she is becoming dependent. She has lost her independence and she can't live without this person. And he or she makes all the decisions and you really have a loss of self.

And can we kind of discuss what that looks like and how we get there and how we make sure that doesn't happen? Because I think a lot of women are like I wasn't this type of person before. I don't know what happened to me. I used like your friend. We were talking about. I used to be independent and make my own decisions and not have my emotions regulated by my partner. And here we are. Yeah.

Well, maybe this relates. Maybe it doesn't. But I want to talk about it. Recently, I have rediscovered my love of playing solitaire with playing car. cards. Okay. It is so relaxing to just get all of these stacks and every seventh game maybe win, right? I used to do this all the time as a teenager. I would be on the telephone, talking to my friends, listening to some music in the background, and playing solitaire. Like, that was my thing. I don't know why. It was my thing. You know, I loved on the computer. I used to play on the

computer. Yeah, I did too. But it's something about playing with the cars that just feels really good. started doing it a few weeks ago. And my husband was like, you know, he's like watching me do it. And my kids are like, how do you know? Because I know all these different versions of it with the playing cards. And they're like, how do you know this? I'm like, I used to do this all the time. I don't even know why I stopped.

Nobody said, hey, stop doing this. It was just like we have it on our phones. And the reason I rediscover it is a way to use my phone less. Right? So now I'm like, I'm going old school. And so sometimes it's not anybody. asking us to abandon this part of our sales, it's us giving it up. Because we think is necessary for this relationship. Yeah, I thought with that guy, and again, I, being 22 is very different.

I was super young, but he was six years older than me. He made more money. He was more successful in this industry that I wanted to succeed in. He made me think that all my thoughts and ideas were immature and stupid and his were better and he had more experience and I just kind of went with it. And there was a lot of good stuff that came with that too. You know, he had a lot of great connections in New York. We were always a great restaurant. Everybody would want to show up at the table and give us free food. He knew a lot of people. He taught me a lot of things. I got good things from that relationship. But I did just defer to him. And I remember feeling like, who the fuck is, who am I? What happened here? So how do you maintain your independence in a relationship and have the

healthy dependency? I guess those are kind of the same. Yeah, I think you have to make time for it, even when it feels like it's no time. You have to have those friend dates. you have to have that time with your partner. You have to have time with your kids and you have to have time with yourself. Very often we try to figure out a way to give this one area, a lot of our focus. And I think there are times like if your kids are babies or something like that. But, you know, the more they grow up is like the more freedom you get. The longer you're in a relationship with your partner is like the less you have to be enmeshed.

It's like, okay, we've been sitting in each other's faces for a year. That's enough. Right? It's like, I'm going back to my girls' nights. You know, you have to figure out a way to reincorporate some of that stuff that you have been holding back on. And if you never had that stuff and you feel lost, you have to figure out what those things are. You have to give your village the opportunity to rise to you, having other things on your plate and in your schedule. I had a friend last year who is a very busy lady, say, I'm going to do a triathlon. She didn't even know how to swim. She first had to take swim lessons to learn how to swim to do the triathlon. So now she's doing swim lessons multiple times a week and training for a triathlon with three kids, busy lady, never had time.

And she's like, I need to do this for myself. It's a test of my strength. So even without having the time, we have to make it. Because if we don't, we get to, you know, many years. And it's like, oh, I never did any of the things I wanted to do. I am not the person I thought I would be. And nobody did it to us. You know, sometimes we're doing it to ourselves.

But I see how it happens. I don't feel like this about my relationship. And I don't think anybody would say that about me. But I see how it can happen. I see how it can creep up on you how every night you're together. And then if one person has a more robust social life, which would be me, it's like, I don't want to leave him at home. I don't think like this.

I'm just saying I can put myself in the shoes if it's like you become so amashed. You have your thing you do every night. And then the girls want to go out. And you're like, but I can't. Like, I get how it can slowly start to erode that independence. And so it is harder to change once you've gotten into the rut. So it's like never stop the things if you can help it. But I also understand.

You're in a new relationship or you're raising children and you want to commit more time to this thing. But I can see how it happens. And you know those people who are like, I can't leave him at home. And you can't. Yes, you can. And my parents are a great example of like they've, my whole life. they've been married 40 plus years, they travel separately. They travel together too, not exclusively separately, but my mom does her girls trips. She has a million friends. My dad does

his ski trips. My mom doesn't ski. And they have always kept those things of their own. Separate interests are so important for long-term relationships. There are some couples in the world where they don't need anybody else. But he does. Yes. There are. There really are. And if they're happy, that's great. And if that's working for you, that's great. I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to the people who are like, gosh, we spend every minute together and I would love to have some friends. Yes. Right?

I feel like I was very heavy in the season of parenting. And I would say about two years ago, I was parenting very heavy and I was very busy with work, probably at the time, like four books in, like super busy. And I had to send a few texts out just acknowledging that I have not been present in some of these relationships. And I see why y'all be on Instagram together and I ain't there. because I have issued so many knows I can't that I'm no longer on the guest list. Yeah.

And so now that I notice that I will try my best to make myself available for this thing, give me the day, I'll figure something out, I'm going to try to be there. And if I can't, again, we're going back to, okay, I couldn't do it that day. Can we do it on this? Can we connect at another time? I'm also initiating the invites, but I have been that person where it's like, oh, everything is going on and I got to go home, my ma'am, my man, my man. I'm a man. The key is the keys, the key is, and work. But it's not full. Life is not full.

Like I need some things for myself as well. We all do. I feel for people, though, they're like, I have to be a parent. I have to have a relationship with my spouse. I got to work. Now I've got to work my friends into this. That is so much to take on. I mean, I feel for people that are like, I got to do all these things. It is a lot. It's a lot. And even promising yourself like once a month that you'll go out and have something outside of all those people, like your job, your spouse, your children, I think is great. I don't know how I would find the time, honestly. Yeah, and I think people understand, especially kids. Kids, and then those early days of falling in love and you really want to prioritize that person. And my best friend,

since I was a kid, has three children, one's a stepchild and she has a special needs son. And what she did to make it, I could cry, to be there for me for every day of the the Bachelorette every day of the wedding, because she came in a day early. Like, I think some people were like, is she going to make it? She's, because they know what she's dealing with. And it had to be so planned in advance, the whole family had to rally around and watch the kids. Because her husband came too, had to rally around and watch the kids.

And like everyone had to step in and make sure she could get away. Is she taking new best friends? Seriously. I mean, it's like amazing person. It meant the world. And she can't up and go on a trip here and there. She doesn't always have that luxury. but I think those things that meant the world to me, it didn't go and notice, of course.

And you and all my friends were like, wow, she's first person here, last person to leave. And she's got the most on her plate. Yeah. And sometimes you just have to do that. Yeah. I think a part of most relationships is inconvenience. If you're not being inconvenience, you might be the problem. I want to decide people can't even rely on you.

Right. That's what we talk about. The protecting your piece hasn't gone too far. Yeah, it's like if you have not been inconvenience, mirror, mirror on the wall. Right. Like I do think about Corey, like what she had to go through to make that should happen. It must have had to be spreadsheets on what parents are coming. It must have been to organize them to get away for four or five days is an insane amount of logistics that, same with my brother,

bring in two kids to L.A., all the things, the cars, the car seats. like that shit is was so much admin for them to come and they made it work and like he wasn't complaining to me but we talked about how fucking annoying it is to do this to show up yeah wow and I think even scheduling a night out with friends you guys are on these texts the back and forth I can't of scheduling with a lady I can't is like Not a lady. Let's stop. Let's stop the friendship because we can't even be.

Women, we just have so, oh, no, not on the 17th. Because on the 17th at 5, I have this. Oh, no, not on the 20th. It's like a constant thing of just trying to get those schedules together. So when you can get out with that person, it's like, what a gift that we have worked so hard to be here. Worked so hard to be here. together. Let's just say together, we deserve a reward because we have really strategically placed our schedules on the same day. That is, that is worthy of praise. Yeah. And put your phones away,

like soak it up. Yes. Like it's not going to happen for another year. This is our golden globes. Like this moment is our award. Our Super Bowl. I think we've like lost friends to their kids and I am, that's fine. I'll get them back at some point. You get them back. You get them back. I think I'm not, you will get them bad. I'm not worried about that. You have a pass for life. I couldn't do what you do. I don't want to do what you do.

I haven't spent an hour alone with a kid. It was too much for me. Because you don't want to hang out with kids. That's your boundary. That's my boundary. I don't want to hang with your kid. But for an hour? It's for an hour.

It's fine. But like when you lose friends to, because they are so codependent on their relationship. It's like really disappointing. We've seen it in our adult. I mean, I really thought this was like a high school, college type of thing. But we lost a friend to her relationship. Lost a friend. And it's.

It's pretty crazy to me. And I do see how people are like, I have wanted love and partnership for so long. And I will do anything to protect this. This is the most important thing in the world. But it is so disappointing. And I mean, I think that you do have to just force yourself to like schedule plans with friends. But let's say we have a friend like that. And it was a great friendship.

And then they got married or they did whatever. And it's like, oh my gosh, this has really shift. Does that mean their friendship is over or is it in another season? Exactly. Like maybe this is now the friend who you speak to by text four times a year. Or maybe you get together once a year versus you see each other every weekend. Like it doesn't mean like this person is gone. It's like this is a new iteration of our friendship. Right. Like we're just doing something different in this season. And when this person comes around, you know, maybe I'll be here. Maybe I won't. But it doesn't mean that we have to completely. lose the connection. It's just in a different place. And if I need that type of friendship with another person, I have to go find that person in the world. It's not this person anymore. And that's okay. And that's for you to decide. Yeah. Because when they show up, are they a value ad? Yeah. Scale of one to 10, how much do they bring to the party? Well, I have several friends with

no kids who are happily without children and they don't even want any kids. And I don't try to make them have a relationship where it's like, well, can I bring my kids and my kids want to come out? It's like, our friendship is about us as adults, our history. It doesn't have to be this. I'm never inviting you to my kids' birthday party. Like, it's not my expectation. I love you for that. Because I always want to be around my nephews. That's my family. And those are the only and Corey's kids, too, I guess. But other than that, I remember getting lunch with a friend. Can I bring my son? No. No. Why is he here? Let's reschedule. six years old or whatever the fuck.

I don't want to go to lunch with you and your kid. Yeah. I have other friends who are childless who are like sending my kids Christmas gifts and they want to talk to them on the phone. So it's like what is the relationship? My expectation for every single human is not the same. I guess it just depends on the kid. Everyone is unique.

And the kid's personality sometimes, just like your personality. There are certain kids who have a certain warm with certain friends and not others. But also the parent, because however you want a parent, that's your business. But there are parents who, if the kid is there, that's their attention. You can't tell a story. You can't get their focus. You must know my kids. Are you that parent?

No, no, no, no. I say the key is I'm not the parent. I'm trying to ignore them, but they're talking. Thank you. And then there's parents that are kind of due the whole like mommy's talking. And you've got to figure your shit out and you have to entertain yourself. And it's just, I've been on both sides of it. And it's really hard to be with a parent that is that the second, the second the

kid needs their attention, they are on it. Well, what I've said to my kids is, do I disturb your playdates? Do I disturb your playdates? When you have your, they'll have their friends over and they're watching, I don't know, zombies or what's the new thing that keeps getting on the way? K-pop demon hunters. And y'all have popcorn and all this stuff. I don't come in there and sit in the middle of y'all and start bringing up random stuff. Don't do that to me. Don't do that to me. I don't do that to me. I don't do it to you. My kids are nine and 12. Yeah, so we're at that phase. But if you let them, they will certainly be like, mom, mom, I don't do that to you. I just want you to see how I'm not treating you that way. Now, if you want equal treatment, if you want equal treatment, I could give it.

You keep interrupting me. Wait, wait till Christian comes down this street. I'm going to be all up in there. Oh my God, I love that. And the other day when, yeah, I'm like, you have to be respectful. My friends are not over all the time. So when they come over, find your business. Do you see people create like unhealthy dependency with their children? I'm sure you do. Yes. Yes. Like can't break that. Yeah, I'm watching this show. Tiffany had a, has some like adventure show or something. So I'm watching it. And one of her friends on the show, I think moves to the state that her daughter goes to college. And all of them are like, oh my gosh, like you're codependent. You need to get a live.

Like, why are you... Those parents are so interesting to me. Why are you in the same state as her? I don't have enough information to make an assessment. You know, I'm thinking, what if her child really does have some, like, emotional issues and need that level of support? I don't know. Or it could be the mom where she's like, oh, my gosh, my baby is gone.

I want to be there all the time. So, yeah, parents have it. That's helicopter parenting, right? That's the parenting where, you know, you have these kids going off to college and they can't survive that first semester because they don't try. know how to do anything outside of the parent helping them. So yeah, of course people have dependency issues with their kids. You do see that.

And girls were like, I call my mom five times a day. I could never related to anything less in my entire life. Maybe we would talk once every two weeks. I used to when I was younger. Yeah. And I just, to your point earlier, like it depends on how you digest that relationship. For some people, that's very healthy. And they love the safety net of their mom being their best friend.

For other people that would really annoy them and erode their boundaries. So I guess it's just how you digest it and how your partner digest it. I can see a partner being like, I would like to not have your parents involved in every single thing. Unless their parents are highly involved and then it wouldn't be a problem.

Well, God, what does that look like? Two, a couple were both are meshed with their parents? What are we even doing? But have you dated anybody like that? It's just like, I gotta call my mom or a sibling every time anything happens. Yeah, I mean, my college boyfriend was like, we really like that with his mom,

but we're so young too. I can't do it. It's not going to be for me. My parents aren't like that. We don't have that relationship dynamic. I have a guy friend who I've only ever been platonic with and I've spent time with him. And it's fascinating to watch his relationship with his parents. And it is nonstop all day, got to talk to the whole family.

And it's a problem with his relationships. Because the mom is the top. She comes first above anyone else, including a romantic partner. And I have mixed thoughts on this too. I'm just like, I don't think a romantic partner gets to come in and be top priority over the family. You've had your whole life and all these things. This is a problem. But yeah, like, so we want to talk about this.

Like maybe we start with family, like a meshment with family. And if you're dating someone like that, can you get through it? What can you offer to those people who are dealing with this? Yeah, I think you have to tread lightly because you're new in the system. This is the way that they've operated. Perhaps you see it as a problem on first sight. However, I think you have to really get into the. system to understand what that is. Sometimes our initial reaction, especially you think of a person

who's hyper-independent. They do everything themselves. They don't have that like family loyalty and tie and then they get into a relationship with someone who's talking to their parents several times a day. Of course, they're going to see that as a huge problem. But is it possible with healthy love? So I think it's what's happening in those interactions. Can this person make a decision without their parents? Yes, but do they want to have somebody to talk through it with them? You know, I think that part of it matters, like, or is it like, okay, mom, I'm about to, like, is it a reporting or is it an informing and notifying? So, you know, I think it's really based on, you know, what we need in a relationship. And we have to think about how we attach to people

and how others may attach. And maybe it is unhealthy and maybe it's not. That's a good point. My sister-in-law and her mom talk four times a day. I think it's cute. I think it's adorable. And her parents don't erode the boundaries of her romantic relationship with my brother. I think that there's like a clear boundary. Like he still comes first to the marriage and things like that. But yeah, her mom calls her all day, every day.

I had a sandwich. This is what I put on it. It's cute. It's nice. Yeah. It's a nice support system for her. And sometimes when we see people in relationships that we don't have, we automatically think of it as negative.

So if I'm dating some person who has this relationship with your mom and I rarely talk to my mom, it's like, why are you talking to your mom every day? You know, it's like, what's wrong with you? And it's like, maybe nothing. Like this is just our cadence. It feels good. Like, what is the unhealthy part? Is she coming over and like rearranging your drawers or something?

But if that's the case, and it is like you said, they can't make a decision without them. I mean, where do you go? Do you just kind of lead with curiosity? Do you start asking questions? Like you can't come in guns blazing. You can't, you can't act like this. You're obsessed with your mom, then. Like, obviously.

I think it's curiosity. Yeah. Because that person has had such a long-term relationship with their family, your partner is not going to hear you being critical right off. Totally. So you have to try it lightly in how you bring that up. But definitely bring it up, but in a curious sort of way. And, you know, hopefully they'll start to.

see it. Well, that's, I know. We've talked about that with Lori Gottlieb. Like, if you can plant a seed that they could reflect to. Right. Versus like, here's your problem in your relationship with your mom. Like, most people aren't going to take that. But if you're saying just like, hey, I noticed that, you know, we were making this a decision about buying a new car and I thought we were talking through it. Then you, you know, caught your mom. Like, what was that about? Like, does she have really good experience on that. Is she paying for this? Right.

Is she like a dealership? Yeah. Like is she a car dealer? Yes. So I don't know. But maybe she is. Can we talk a little bit about ammished friendships? Yes.

And you said something earlier that I want to circle back to when people need space. And that's tough to be in a situation where your friend wants space from you or, you know, the neediness we talk about. So I just think I want them to talk about these like a. friendship relationships. Yeah, well, we have to choose our words carefully in relationships when we want to keep them. And so I don't think we go to people and say, I need space from you. Totally. No, I agree. That's like a dagger to the heart. That is not what to say, but I think sometimes we do say that. And what we need to reflect on is why we have that need within ourselves.

I am doing a lot of healing work. I am, you know, having some personal shifts and I'm noticing that I need more time with myself. What that will look like for us is maybe we don't do every Thursday whatever we were doing, right? So I might not be available for this thing. That's not making it about them. That's making it about you and what you have going on. Not every week I don't want to go to this thing with you. Whoa. Way to ruin a friendship. Right. Yeah.

But there are ways to let a person know that, you know, based on the shifts that are happening in my life, you know, this is how it will reflect on you. Like, things are changing. I was going to Pilates for like, I don't know, six months with a friend. And she was like, upon reflection, this is not really on my driving path. That's fun. Yeah. I would hate to lose my Pilates friend. Yeah, she's like, this is not on my driving path and getting here from work and changing

in the bathroom. Like, it's just, it's just a thing. It's stressful. Like, I'm bowing out of Pilates. And I was like, okay, cool. But I'm seeing her tonight. Okay, good. Okay, you're going to go to the comedy show.

Yes. Okay. She's here. Okay. Yeah. So it wasn't a ruined friendship. It's just like, I get that. My day is a little more flexible.

So at five o'clock, I'm. I'm free to, you know, I might be done at three. So I'm going to Pilates now. That's fine. But she's working all day and getting off at five and going straight to a lot. You know, so that's a different lifestyle. I understand that. Thank you for coming for the six months.

That was kind of you to make that stretch. We can find other things to do during other times where it's more suitable. When I want space, I take it. There's nobody that I've ever been annoyed with. It's been like, Rina seems so great with me. Like I do wear it on my sleeve, but it has been a lifelong battle for me to to address those things early, dip them in the butt. Like, I'll take the space, but people feel that I'm taking the space from them.

And it has been like a lifelong battle for me. I mean, you and I talked about this a couple summers ago with your book, Drama Free and me avoiding conflict with my family and my brother saying to me, like, when you don't talk to me makes you feel like you don't love me. And I just thought I was like sparing him the uncomfortable conversations, but he was like, no, if I'm pissing you off, just tell me. Right. I'm an adult.

I'll get through it, you know? And trusting that other people. people can hear those things and it's not going to ruin the whole relationship. We had a friend recently talking to me and she said, I avoid conflict and I said, what are you scared of? And she said that people are you will leave me. And trusting that people aren't going to leave you, I think that it is like a lifelong battle to like take the space and be able to be like, I need some space.

Absolutely. I'd say it in a nice way. Yeah. What do you say to the best friends, the enmeshed friends and on the other side where the one feels like she's losing her best friend too? let's just say a guy, a romantic relationship or whatever, whatever it may be. Yeah, I don't think you feel the void, but I think you incorporate more people. People have the option to want something different for themselves.

There are some things that we can't give our friends sex. You know, so I think it's one of those things that we have to acknowledge, I get it. Like you want that companionship, you want that level of relationship, and I am not providing that. I need to maybe figure out, is this available with someone else in my life or do I need to incorporate some new people? It is not an attack on our friendship. This is a growth thing for you. And I'm proud of you. I want you to be married. And also, this is how it will impact our relationship. And can you have a standing weekly date? You know, like we've all been in those situations where you're like, I'm losing her, you know, and, you know, maybe I'll get her back. Like, I guess I feel like this

when we were in our 20s a lot. And so is there a world in which you're like, can we do dinners? Can we do Pilates? Can we have a stand? Yeah. Yeah. Can I rely on you to? Because you're right.

Like we can't give our friends this romantic relationship unless we want to. But you don't begrudge your friend for going to find that. You're probably happy for them. But to feel like I've lost the friendship because of that is probably a pretty common experience. Well, yeah. Or can I come over for dinner? You know,

it's not always going out. Maybe, you know, your husband goes in another room or your boyfriend goes in another room and we sit down and we do our dinner and that's our night. Maybe that's the way you fold this third person into the relationship. So, you know, can we have something consistent? Yeah, but it's really one, the two people in a relationship to figure out what that new cadence will be. And that requires some discomfort maybe with some conversations. That's a great call.

Even when I reflect on friends, when I felt like that, I'd be hanging out with them and their partner. I'd be like, I'm coming over. You know, like an every day in my life in LA, third wheel and fifth wheeling. I don't have a single, single friend. I don't have a single, single friend in LA anymore. All of them like all of my, all of my social activities are with my friends and their husbands and boyfriends.

I don't have a single activity ever. Friday night, Saturday morning. I'm like, I can't push back on this. I mean, I'm going to move back to New York and Ashley's going to come with me. I am really lucky. I was thinking the other day. I'm really lucky that my friends have chosen partners that are really wonderful. And all of our friends here have.

husband's, fiance's, boyfriends that I really like. It's important to me to ask them questions and engage with them because that is my life here right now. Yeah. And it's like I look at when we're hanging out as just five friends. You know, like two dudes, three women. Like it's just like not two couples who are on each other's, sit down each other's laps, you know. Like I get if you're around a couple that's really truly making you feel like a third wheel or a fifth wheel. But like luckily when it's like that, it's just we're all. Yeah. And I understand that like I have to tell my of adults want to be with their partners. Adults want to be with their romantic partner.

It's just a new friend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like an addition to your friendship. Yeah. Yeah. Or you move back to New York to go find your single friend.

But there's also nothing wrong with saying let's do a girls night. Yeah. And I need that. It really fills my cup. Like I don't want him to be with like attached to the hip. He doesn't want that either. If you say, can we make it a girl's night to your friends who are partnered and they are offended or push back, I don't really know what to tell.

you to do there because girls nights have been around since the history of time. Like that's, that's no, that doesn't mean I hate your man. It means can we just do a girl's night? Absolutely. Have a good balance. Yeah. So maybe we close it out with what healthy dependency looks like and I think we've touched on it.

I think it means that you show up in your relationships in a reflective, boundaryed, boundaryed on both sides and considerate way. We have to have care in our relationship. we have to accept help, we have to also offer it. We have to be willing to support people and we will need support. So I think things in terms of dependency, we have to think about the person who we're in a relationship with. There are some people where our dependency cannot be healthy if it can only be codependent,

right? And then we may have to adjust there. But in most of our interactions, if we can strive to have some health, healthier situations. I think that's really helpful. And it makes us feel more connected. So our goal should be to have not necessarily more people, but deeper connections. I love that. I love it. Nedris, every time you're on the show, it's so amazing for us. Is there anything else you want? No, I think that's great. I think that's great. We want people to buy the book and read the book. It's a great book. All of your books, honestly, are fantastic, whether you're dealing with boundaries or

dependency, anything you want to address in your life. I mean, buy them all. But also your Instagram is a well, of great information. So tell people where they can find you and anything else. Yes. So I have a website NedraToWab.com. And then my Instagram, my threads, all the places, Netra to Wap. Okay. And congr. And congr. And congr. And you can get it now. It's so funny. I remember how I saw you. Do you remember I was home during COVID? I was at my parents' house in Delaware and you were on the TV. My mom was like, maybe you should watch this. It seems relevant to what you do. And we had wanting to do an episode of boundaries. That's how it happened. I forgot that.

My gosh. You know, some news program. Oh, whatever. Kelly and somebody, I don't know. Did you put out a book that year in 2020? 2021, but 2020, I could have been on TV talking about it, I guess. Yeah.

Anyway, I just had a flashback of just that's how I saw the first time. She'd be good. Okay, guys, and you know where to find us, girls got to eat.com. Girls Got to Eat.com. I'm Ash Hess. Raina. It's, Raina. dot Greenberg.

Raina greenberg.com for her tour tickets. And you can subscribe on YouTube. share this episode with a friend, and we will see you Thursday. Have a good week, guys. Bye.