Girls Gotta Eat - What We Think Makes Us Happy vs. What Actually Does with Mark Manson

Episode Date: July 24, 2023

We're so happy to welcome back bestselling author Mark Manson to give more life advice that doesn't suck. We're discussing the truth about happiness – that there is no "formula" for it, why "getting rid" of your problems isn't the answer, and recognizing delusional positivity. In terms of relationships, we talk about how you and your partner's strengths and weaknesses counterbalance each other, how conflict strengthens a healthy relationship, and what you can be doing right now to improve your dating life. Mark also turns the tables on us and asks how the podcast has changed our dating life, and he shares his own wild cheating story, which leads us to our final discussion about post traumatic growth (how a lot of people end up thriving after a traumatic incident). Before Mark joins us, we talk about more changes in Rayna's life (hint: porn and pedicures), Ashley's DMV journey, and how we got in trouble in high school. We also spill some tea on someone Rayna ran into and who texted Ashley. Enjoy! Follow Mark on Instagram @markmanson, get his books The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck and Everything is F*cked: A Book About Hope, and check out his website for more. Follow us @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit our website for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Shop Vibes Only. Thank you to our partners this week: Living Proof: Get 15% off your first purchase at livingproof.com/gge and use code GGEHAIR. AG1: Get a free 1-year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D + 5 free travel packs with your first purchase at drinkAG1.com/gge. Lume: Get $5 off your Starter Pack with promo code GGE at lumedeodorant.com/offer/gge. Quince: Get free shipping and 365-day returns on your next order at quince.com/GGE. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

recognize that, you know, hey, stuff sucks sometimes. We all have insecurities. We all have flaws. That's okay. It doesn't mean you're a bad person. You don't need to judge yourself for it. So in that sense, I almost think like mental health is more based on our relationship with negative thoughts rather than our relationship with positive thoughts.

Welcome back to another episode. Girls got to eat. Welcome back. It's no longer cancer season and Raina doesn't understand centimeters. I just got cancer. I got cancer. I got cancer shamed. I got centimeter shamed by this whole room.

Gone to your head. You know how big a centimeter is? I know it's like a little less than half an inch a centimeter. Yeah. I don't know these things. I had no idea. What would you have guessed? 12 centimeters. It's a 12th of an inch. A 12th. That's small. We measure in that. Nobody measures things in centimeters. That's crazy.

Some stuff on Etsy randomly. That's what I'm doing. I'm on. Etsy. Let's get it together, Etsy. That's why I was asking you. Two inches. That's crazy. That's so funny. It's the only thing I bought this like new table for when you walk into my house and I was like having to convert it. That's funny you knew that. You know, it's also it's also no longer 1230 when we were going to start recording. It is three hours. It's giving Rana nationally 2018 through 2022. This is what I love about having our own studio, being in our own schedule. I came over at noon. We had a call. And then I was going to order food in your were like, let's walk to Airwant. And then we are on the walk. You're like, let's walk down my special street. So we got lunch. Then we came over. We were eating at lunch. Your hot neighbor came over. We talked to him for an hour. It's hard to focus. You loved it. You were like giggling. I was kidding. I was

you loved it. What's not to love? He's so hot and nice and smart. I can't, it's crazy. He was like, can I pop over? I got a package of his and the other. I wish I'd get his whole package. I'll take your He was like, can I come grab it? I was like, yeah, we're all here. Just stop by. And he just sat down. I was like, and he was leaving. And you're like, well, we'll be here Wednesday too. You're like, Azul will be here. I know. Nick Vial will be here. Lunch will be here. Like, what else we'll serve to offer you? I'll be naked. Just come over. I told my interview. He was like, for what? It's funny. It's like a new person. You've had three breast reductions. And then I feel like you couldn't say it enough. Ashley is a boyfriend. Ashley's not available.

Tell him how you guys met. Tell him the whole story from the beginning. Tell him how serious it is. It's very serious. Don't even fucking look at her. Don't actually look at me. Don't look at her. You're not allowed to look at her boyfriend.

Look at me. Don't look at her. Look at me. Don't look at her. Anyway, I'm still shipping it along with someone else. Oh, me and him. Yeah. No, me and him, Raina.

Yes, you and him. But he's my second ship for you. We all know the first. The first ship is pulling into port. coming. I was like, if she says the first ship is sailed, it's going to be wrong. But she got it. Like, what boat analogy can I make? Yes. We do have our ship pulling in.

We're going to have our first mate next week. Yeah, the ship is pulling into port. What is, isn't the ship has sailed? Analogies, metaphors are in the wedding crashers. Yes, wedding crashers made of honor speech. My captain, what does she say? Am I captain? And then the Ella Fisher like

Bus out laughing. Rachel McAdams. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, when they're giving the fucking Crasher speech, like, that was one of the best true to life you're at a wedding and there's a corny speech and you can't hold it in.

Like, what just happened on that call? That call was, you guys. We just have the funniest experience on the Zoom call, which I insisted to be Zoom. They were actually the first company in the last like three years. It was like, here's a dial-in. And I was like, I wanted to be a Zoom. Two people.

It just has to be a Zoom. Has to be a mess. But Ashley and I were together for it. So normally we shit talk obviously be a text message throughout meetings. And we're typing back and forth. We push the envelope. I'm pretty good at holding it together. Every once in a bloom and I have to like turn around to get a laugh out.

But I'm like, okay. And today this guy popped on the screen. Let's call him Jack. I wrote Jack is so hot in my notebook. And Ashley glanced at it, didn't say anything. You didn't acknowledge it. Yeah, I didn't see it. And then 10 minutes later, I wrote Jack is so hot in my book.

notebook. Wrote it in your notebook. We did the exact same thing. I didn't realize it. And then Raina had to leave the call. And then I guess it was... I came back with tears in my eyes. And someone else from our team called us right after to kind of discuss what

happened on the Zoom call. And he was like, did I say something out of line? Because you both really just started laughing. And Raina got up. And I was like, no. Came back with tears in her eyes. I was like, we took a risk today. It just was so funny.

You're like passing notes in class. I know. It felt very like prevent. Like 1980, we're like writing notes in our notebook. Can you imagine if you and I would have been in class together? Forget it. Forget it. I wouldn't graduate third in my graduating class.

I wouldn't graduate at all. We'd in summer school together. Every single class, like parent-teacher conferences, the teachers were very specific. Raina is a huge distraction to the other students. She's a real problem to the other kids in class. It was constant. Oh my gosh. Well, I think I've talked about this before, but I was in honors my whole life.

when I was young, like grifted and talented whatever, and then I was like an honors. And those weren't like my main best friends. Like I had my best guy friend, Caleb, and we were in every class together all through high school. But my friend group weren't in the honors class with me for the most part. So all my friends were like in normal like college prep classes. And

one class, it was chem two senior year. All my friends were in it. Like it was crazy. And I didn't know that I was so bad in class till I had a class with all my fucking friends. Like my two best girlfriends, my best guy friends, like this guy used to flirt with. We were all chem two together. I get kicked out all the time. Miss Cotoldi, you should be like, get out, get out, out, out,

Ashley, out. And this one time I was packing my stuff up and I was like, I know. And then I go, where do you want me to go? Where were you supposed to go? We have security guards in the hallway. She'd make you go back by friends to the day. I'm packing my backpack. She's like, get out.

I was like, Miss Cotterlady, I'm literally leaving. But where do me to go? She didn't say go to the principal. I'm leaving. I'm leaving. I'm leaving. So I went to my next teacher who was like a cool teacher, like Mr. Seal Horse. I'd have him a bunch of times.

And I like go up and I'm like, Miss Cotty kicked me out. I'm just going to hang till class. He was like, okay. Could you help me with this thing? It's crazy to get kicked a class because it's like it's counterintuitive to what you really want. Like don't you want this kid to be better and to learn more and they just make like worse? Like you don't get to learn this life. I was like acing the class.

Like I was like crushing, you know, whatever. But I couldn't help myself. Like I had all these years of peasant. tend up of not being in class with like all my friends. Yeah. And I just was bananas every day. It was a huge issue. Yeah, I understand.

It was a huge since K through 12. It was Raina is a huge problem in this classroom. I was just up, dick and around. Just hanging out, past a note, people hated me. The teachers. I mean, everybody else loved me. And then this girl, this girl, she was like with the one person that really did try to fight me.

We didn't fight, but she had a crush on my boyfriend prom date or whatever. And do you remember you get, like, pictures printed out and you'd bring them into school and, like, show off? Like, no. What were you showing? I think you could afford to photos developed? No, like, you would bring in your photos and, like, show them to people. Oh, okay. You'd be, like, passing them around.

Totally. I would have the big, like, packet. The packets. I would have a packet from, like, Ritz camera in the Dover Mall. Yeah. Wherever you got him developed, Walmart, Target. And I remember I, like, called my dad and my cell phone at lunch. I was like, dad.

can you bring me the picture because I won't have passed them out because you know you got so excited to see those photos because we didn't have the camera phones you get duplicates dupes you say doubles they call them doubles

doubles so my dad was like I just begged you know and he was maybe having like a slow day so he literally brought me the pictures to school that's crazy actually just like he wasn't like you do this tomorrow this is an exploding offer I think he had to like come to Smyrna for a delivery

from Dover or whatever so he just dropped him off at school they were like, Ash, the time you have something in the office. This is a crazy story. Actually, your dupes are in the office.

Your pictures are the office. So I went just so I could, like, pass them around at Kemp too. I'd fuck with this girl. Because she tried to fight me. And so I just, all my prom pictures, I was literally passing him around the class.

Like, everybody looked at prom picks. And she was seething. Seathing. Worth it. It's worth it. Deb. Debs are always a problem. Deborah.

No problem. Like, she, Deb. She stepped to me in chemistry. She came up to my. Does. Could you fight in high school? No. Okay. I feel like I thought I might be able to. I thought I could fight. Deb almost for Corey too. Deb fights. Deb goes to Corey. She goes, your leather jacket looks fake.

Corey goes, smell it, bitch. And she put her leather jacket in her mouth. You're like gearing up for a fight. I just, I thought I was really tough. I was 90 pounds soaking wet. My tits were bigger than the rest of my body. I thought I was tough. I would like taunt other girls in the high school. Oh my God. But I was this little Jewish girl, but my friends were like the cheerily. from like the other side of the tracks and they could murder you. They could end your life. And I just was like, I don't care. Angie, you'll beat you up if I provoke you long enough. Totally.

You know? I know. I do feel like I had some friends that would have had my back. But yeah, I wasn't. I would have died. Like bullying or provoking fights or ever trying to get in a fight. But a couple people tried to fight me a couple times and I was terrified. Deb was also taller than me.

She was like six too. In the lunchroom, didn't you hit somebody? Didn't you like beat somebody up? one time in the lunchroom? In a lunchroom? Did I fight somebody? I don't know. I hit boys.

I really, I hit boys. I thought I was really tough. I had, like, really tough girlfriends. I never gotten, like, a physical fight in school. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Anyway.

Wow. I have things to say to you during this episode. Okay, let's start. Oh, also, I just want to say our messages about last week's episode have just been like, and you can speak to your experience also, but just, like, really overwhelmingly sweet. And we talked about aging and one or two lines about just, like, being a mother and mom shaming and your messages about it were just so sweet. So I just wanted to say thank you.

And I know it was like such a big thing for you to talk about aging and turning 40 when that means for you and how you see yourself. And people have just been really so wonderful and supportive and being like, I'll come see you girls when you're 65. And it means a lot to us. It does mean a lot. And it was really so nice how you kept stressing throughout the episode that you weren't 40. I'm not.

When I was listening back, I was like, this fucking bitch. I was like, where's the line? When is she going to tell me stop? I don't care. I'm older and why. All right, what do you have to tell me? Oh, I wrote a list about stuff. Oh, my God.

I had going on this week. You see what you gravitate towards, want to make fun of first. I had a big week. I watched porn on my TV for the first time. I've never mirrored my phone onto my television. Luxury. Let me tell you, when you watch a stepdad,

fucking stepdaughter on your actual television and not your phone screen. I have to tell you, I am surprised you hadn't been doing that. Like, you have a TV in your bedroom. Why wouldn't you be watching porn on it? Because sometimes it's just on my phone, it's right at my face. I don't want to go to the extra step.

Because also if I'm scanning categories, I still have to look at my phone. Right. And I guess it's not like it's firing up Netflix. Like you have to mirror it. It's a whole other step. And then I feel like along the way, you're like, what am I doing? Yeah. I'm not too far.

Yeah. I'm looking at the categories on my TV and my phone. It's a lot. Well, I support it. Thank you. I masturbate to having sex in my shower. Okay. I'm becoming you.

We're becoming each other. So I have like a seat in my shower. And I like never really. thought about it before I took a picture this morning in the shower, just to remind you. Like, between the shower and the tub, there's like a... Totally. You can sit on and have sex and bend over without slipping. It would be nice.

I'm, like, so excited to do this. Yeah. This is Ashley and I slowly turning into each other. I got my first pedicure. I know. We forgot to bring this up last week. We were talking to Monarch. You've changed.

You just said it so casually and you're not into it. I don't care for it. So what was the motivation? Can you show the story with the listeners? We were going away for your birthday and I just wanted my toes to be on flake. And I just don't. don't care about it. They caught my toenails too short. And then you have lost some. And Raina Warley press on toenails to the beach on Saturday. If you guys didn't know they make press on toenails,

you do now. And Raina had fake toenails on the beach. They were starting to come up. Andrew Collins was like, they have layers. Two of my toenails cracked in half. Oh my God. They've never had gel on them. They literally cracked in half. And And I was like, I can't just be in these streets with cracked and half toenails. And so I like went to CBS and I bought Kiss, press on toenails. And they do look a little different than regular. They're smooth. They looked good until you looked underneath.

The underbelly is really. Yeah. There's separation between the regular toes. So weird. Are they still on? They've popped off since then. Oh, my God. One of them popped up when my neighbor was sitting at the table with us just out.

You just feel it? Yeah, it hit the floor. So I'm going to be discreet about this, but one of our friends that was in Cabo, she lost two full toenails. I'm going to protect her privacy. She doesn't need this out there. She's a very powerful job. And she doesn't need her clients knowing that she can't hold on a job polish on her toenail. So she lost one toenail and sex this in the morning.

It was like, it happened. And she lost another one the next day. Well, I had to do a full set. I had to do all 10. And you got to like clip them. You got to like shape them. You got to glue them down. It's hard to reach your toes like that.

I have my foot all the way up on the counter. Oh, my gosh. So, yeah, I did press on fake toenails. I can't. I know people listening are like, I didn't know. That was a thing. You learn something on this podcast every day. Now you guys fucking know.

Okay, two more things to tell you. One will discuss. I'm really reading. I'm like, really. You look at certain. You walk. I think you have a problem. Addictive person.

you're addicted to reading. Can you imagine going to a meeting? You're like, I'm raining Greenberg. I'm addicted to fiction. You walked in with this stack of what eight books and put them on the table. You're like, look what I got at Barnes & Noble. I was like, this is insane. No, who was a hall like this?

I had a gift card. I'm trying to catch up. Who got you a gift card? Sally gave me a thing. So cute. So I said to you, I don't think I had a place I enjoyed reading. Like in my apartment in New York, I don't know. I'd be laying on my couch.

I fall asleep after two pages. So here I read outside and I've just been crushing books. I read a book in a day. It's so crazy. You finish the silent patient. I'm obsessed. I love it. I miss it. So I think there's a lot to that. And I think that's one of the reasons why people talk about beach reads. It's like you're in a place where you want to read. You know, it's not as fun when I think about reading on my couch back in New York or even on my deck in New York. Like I really enjoy reading on my back patio here or like whatever it is going to the beach. Like I think that's such a part of it. is like setting the vibe. I used to wonder where you read in New York? You'd just be crushing books.

Where'd you read? She's like, I'd be like, oh, my couch. I would be outside sometimes. You're like on a couch. But then when I went the hardest reading was like in Dewey. I spent so much time there last summer. And when I was on the coast, I was just at the beachway Morris. That was when I was just like blow through books.

I've been blowing. I'm just crushing books. You told me I was a peer reader. I'm so proud. So I'm reading The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. Hugo. I have been wanting to read. That's not like a hot take.

That's a huge best seller that everybody recommends. men's. So I'm curious to see what you think. I think I'm into thrillers because I love The Silent Patient and Verity. So I really like these psychological thrillers. The silent patient, really, I think I might just read it again. Yeah. I think there's some plot holes. So that you guys know, basically, this woman kills her husband and never speaks again. And the book is told from the perspective of her psychotherapist. But I feel like they drop certain things throughout the book. I don't know how long ago you read it. It was this year. It was while we lived here. I'll run through it with you later. But I just felt there were certain things that like, when you find out

who the killer was or whatever, what happened. I'm like, I kind of felt like that doesn't make sense. Yeah, let's discuss offline. So I did that, and then the last thing I wanted to talk to you about. It's such a crazy thing. I feel like it's happened to everybody, but I went to lunch. I'm trying to explore, like, all of L.A., so I went to Los Felice.

Mm-hmm. I don't know you say it, but I had lunch, and I went by myself to this place, and I sat down directly next to my ex-boyfriend's girl that he dated immediately after me. I guess it's his ex-nout, but sat directly next to her. Wild. What are the odds? She didn't live here. I guess she lives here.

which I was just like, how did you know that? I was like Instagram, how I know everything. Yeah. And I was seated directly next door. I've never met this person. I've never seen her outside of Instagram. And like she's distinctive looking for sure. She's a beautiful girl.

But it's really shocking. You're like alone and she's there like having lunch with her friends. And I'm like, do I acknowledge it? Fuck no. If she was by herself, I feel like I would have acknowledged it. And you think she knows who you were? I think we all know this. Yeah, we didn't know who I was.

I saw the girl that my ex-dayed after me. I mean, I could pick her out of any line. Line up. I know exactly what the fuck she looks like. I obviously looked her up. Line up. I know. I can pick her out at a football stadium. Yeah. I can figure out anywhere. I could figure out at Lollapalooza. Yeah, I literally could. And I'm sure the same. Well, I know. I know she knows who I am, obviously. I think there is a hundred percent probability that she would know who I was more so than I would know she was because she came after me.

And I think you just want to know who to this person date right before. Yeah. So, of course, outside of. girls got to eat at all. I just think you immediately go look the last person was. I guess, but like also do you grow out of that a little bit? Because I just realize that. I don't think I care that much about who I'm dating now, the girls he dated before. I'm just curious who they were. Like my ex-boyfriend and I feel like I don't, right now sitting here right now, I don't have that urge at all. I don't care. I feel totally secure. But curiosity, it's not about insecurity. It's just curiosity. But I'm like, did I grow out of that a little bit? I will never grow out of it. I know.

I didn't think I would have. It's just straight gossip for me. me. I just want to know. I know. Same. What's happening to me? My ex-boyfriend, like, I wish him nothing about well. I really want him to be happy and I want him to find a wonderful person. I don't know anything about this person, but she seems nice and beautiful. And just out of curiosity, because he like hard-launched on his Instagram. So I was like, let me get in there. So this kind of brings me to something that I wanted to talk about. And the segue is this meme. I had posted this. It's from Kate Claiborne. And it says, exciting text to get from your friends. One, can I tell you something petty? two, you're not going to believe who I just saw.

Three, this is going to sound ridiculous, but four, okay, so, and then five, just your name in all caps and in the typing bubble for a long time. And I post this on my story and I said, this was two and five for me and Raina today, which was the day that you saw this girl. So you were like, my name, Ashley, oh my God, and then you're not going to believe who I just saw. And then I did it be you this morning. I like freaked out. Oh, I freaked out. And I was like, oh my God, I'm losing it. What had happened?

I like freaked out. Yeah, literally, I was like, Raina off-caps, period. And you were like, oh, my God, what? I'm not even ready. And I was like, you were never going to believe who just text to me. And that's honestly, like, I will wait, by the way. I write Ashley and you don't respond. I'll wait all day.

I'll wait a week. I'm not even being like, hey, buzz, buzz, it's me. I'm just like, you should know. Yeah, that's amazing. You respond appropriately. You have to. And any of those things, guess what? We'll never talk again if you don't respond.

And who it was was crazy. The plane guy, if you guys know, you know, the guy who I saw on the flight and then who was like, let's go out and then didn't follow up. And this whole story was like, I don't even know now, like a month ago. We shared the story of this guy that I was like super excited about going out with. And then he just kept like falling off and I saw him on a flight. And then basically like the final thing was I had sent him the ghost emoji. And then he said, is this a booty call? And that was like the last text.

And I never responded to that. That was my whole point. I'm going to ghost emoji him and then never respond to his next message. And this morning, this is a Monday morning, 10 a.m. Insane. What do you say? Monday at 10 a.m. Hey, four wise.

Really overdoing it. And then we're overdue. Ha ha. Were spelled wrong. We're overdue. First of all, for what? I don't know you. That's like something a friend you're trying to catch up with.

There's no way in hell I would go out with you, even if I wasn't dating somewhat. So here's the thing. If you had like a nice interaction with somebody and then you guys kind of fell off and that was how they got in after the first interaction. Yes. No other shit happened. I would think that that was like very funny and playful. Like, oh my God, we keep missing each other. Like it's clearly a joke. This is just some fucking asshole. Totally. Like and it's so funny because obviously the episode of me saying that I'm with somebody now had just dropped. Like if you're listening on Monday like one week prior. And no. My gut instinct is not that this guy is like, Oh, she is a boyfriend now. Let me see if I can get back in there. It's just, I truly think guys have radar for that. And two, it's like Roxy said on our manifesting episode. Like, you'll get these tests from the universe to see if you're, you know, serious about

someone that you're saying. Whatever, it doesn't matter. This is not a test. I laughed out loud, texted you. And it's like, I'm never responding to that guy ever. A test. I feel like if you weren't dating somebody, you wouldn't even respond. I wouldn't.

No. Like, I gave him a few different chances. One or two, too many, honestly. And this is just like, you're the worst. I totally agree. I am aware that we are all just strangers that live in someone else's phone. And so he drops off a couple times. I don't think you're like the worst person.

I've ghosted people like that that I actually like. But this guy's just a fucking asshole. The plane thing was so weird. Like we got off the plane. He never even acknowledged that we were on the plane. Ugh. He's the worst. But he's that meme that's like, hi, here you're in a relationship.

Can I ruin that for you? Yeah. Have fun trying. It would be completely psychotic to have seen Ashley's in a relationship and then message you. That would be like very crazy. That would be so crazy. The timing is sucks. I don't put it past him.

I know. He's probably listening right now. He's probably getting off on this. Fucking weirdo. Getting off on that. You're going to get another text? Buzz, buzz. No, I'm never speaking to him.

Here's the thing, what I will say. One thing that I've learned over the years, and I always still slip up here and there, if it comes to, like, people on the internet that may be insulting you or whatever, things like this. Like, you want to clap back. But truly the best thing is not to engage

and, like, truly ignore somebody. Like, this is different than someone trolling you on the internet. But my advice is still the same that you just don't engage. Like, that is going to irritate someone more than ever. No response is loud and clear. It's so much better than someone thinking that they, like, impacted you in any way. I completely agree. Because anything I say that sounds snarky or mean, it still expresses a feeling that I feel slighted by you.

Yes. And I don't want to do that. Yes. Your goal is always, like, in France. Yes. I mean, this, this to me is, like, funny. Like, if I did respond, it would be L-O-L. Right. I would be like, but I'm not even going to, there's no point.

I just thought it was interesting and I was like 10 a.m. Like cats out of the bag that I'm not single anymore and it's just like buzz buzz. What was that guy doing this morning? Right. He started thinking about you at 9 a.m. on Monday. Like, what is he doing? I don't know. Who cares?

Not for us. No. Okay. Let's talk about some partners. He's never going to pull into port. Then we'll get into it. Okay. Is it time for what?

Share my DMV story. Yay, okay. Okay. So I was like, what's about to happen? I teased it last week because it is kind of wild. And to get a license in California, Raina talked to her experience. You have to, like, submit all this paperwork.

You can just show up to the DMV with all your things. You need like, you know, proof of identity, like a passport or whatever, like two proof of residence. You can just show up or you can try to make an appointment online, in which case you have to submit all the paperwork beforehand. And like, then they have to approve it. And then you have to go to. an appointment at one of the DMBs. So I wanted to make an appointment. So I submitted everything

online. It was like a pain in the ass. You know, one thing got rejected. One of my bills got rejected. My utility bills. I was like, this is like so intense. And so finally all got approved. I made this appointment on July 9th. And so this was like June. So I made this appointment for like end of June. And just in my head, I had this feeling that maybe Hollywood, which is my closest location, would be too busy or something. And I just picked Culver City, like, which is also not that far. So I made an appointment at Culver City. I go there. You know, there's a line for people with appointments, people without appointments. They're not that much different. You can just show up. Like, I think you should just go, whatever. And I check in and I show all the stuff I have. And then they gave me a

number. And then I went and sat down and, you know, you get called and you go see like a person at one of the windows and they get prove everything. And then you have to like do the test, which Rain has talked about doing the test. And so I sat and waited for it. And then they call my number and I go up to the window and there's this woman. And she's just such a fucking cunt from the start. Like, she's just not cracking a smile. I'm trying to nice and friendly. She's not having it. It's like everything I gave her, she tried to act like there was something wrong with it. And then she was like, that's not the page of your lease that I need. And luckily, I had my car title with me too as like a backup. And she was like, you could tell she was pissed that I had that. Yeah. She wanted to turn me away.

And so she's like, I guess that'll work. And she's just being such a fucking cunt. And I provided everything I needed. And then she was like, do you have a current license? And I was like, yeah, I have a Georgia license. So I gave her the Georgia, because I never got a New York one. I did register to vote. and I voted New York, but I just never got a New York license. I was going to them as COVID, whatever. So I have a Georgia license, so I handed over to her. She, like, does a little thing in her system. And she goes, nope, there's a hold on this license in Georgia.

You can't get a license today. And she's such a bitch about it. And then I had filled out an application right in front of her. And she took it from me and ripped it up in my fucking face. Made a scene of ripping it up. Like, I was a criminal or something like, and was like, bye. And I was like, can you tell me what it is in Georgia? like I've just come all this way.

Like I have everything I need. Can you help me in any way? And she was like, no. It says there's a hold. There's nothing I can do. You have to come back. And I was like, what the fuck?

And I am like, feel like I'm on the verge of tears. Like I was so excited. I'd done all this stuff till now to get to this point. I thought it was like so close. And meanwhile, only have like two weeks to really do this before my license expires. We have a trip planned, all this stuff.

And she would not help me at all. And like, I wish looking back, I just left. Like, I was just like, okay. Like, I felt like I was going to cry. And I wish I would, have been like, did you really have to rip that up? You know what I'm? Like, did you really have to ruin my day? It's a level of like abuse that you're not ready for. So when it happens, it's so

jarring. You don't, like, you and I are always like, no, you're going to give me the answers. You're going to sit here and you're going to work me, but it's so abusive and so crazy that you don't even not handle it. So you just abdicate. I mean, that's how I am. And I mean, I feel like triggered because when I was there, I watched them be so abusive to like 16 year olds. They're there to get their license the first time or people there and they're like their 60s that maybe like aren't as great with computers and just had questions about the test. And, like, I felt sick by how just terrible they were to these people. And, like, it's the only place I've ever seen that level of just, like, disrespect and

horrific nastiness. Right. So I'm like, okay, well, I can't get a license today. I'm fucking Cher Horowitz over here. Like, I thought I was going to get my California driver's license today. I can't. Like, what am I going to do? So we have, like, someone on our business management team that I was like, I'm going to do everything

I can to figure out what's going on with my license. Can you also try to help me? And we all know I've had some issues in the past, but they were, you know, 15 plus years ago. I have a valid license. I checked it online. I just bought a fucking car. I have car insurance. I know there's nothing going on.

The only thing I could think of was like unpaid parking tickets from Atlanta. Like, I don't fucking know. And so the average person gets a new license every 10 years. Nobody knows how to deal with this stuff. Help me. Right. And like my Georgia license was from 2015. Like anything I'd had happened bad to me.

It was way before that. Like whatever. So I'm like, this is crazy. I'd go log into Georgia. Georgia DMV. It says valid. I don't know what this could be. It's got to be parking tickets. So I had someone look into it that works for us. And she was like, I called Georgia. It's cleared. I'm trying to get in touch to someone from the LA DMV. But like, you should be fine to go back. You know, like, you should be cleared. I don't know what this glitch in this system was, whatever.

So I was like, I'm not going back to the fucking Culver City DMV. So I go to Hollywood. It was the best experience of all time. Raina, I feel like it was that dream sequence and super bad when like Jonah Hills. Have fun fucking jewels. So much Jonah Hill. A question of, you know, I don't want to hype Jonah Hill right now. But that movie was great. Yeah, when, yeah, like everyone is like, yeah, have fun fucking jewels. Welcome.

Like, they just welcome me. There's this person right there waiting. They're like, what do you need here today? And I was like, I need to, you know, do this thing. And I didn't have an appointment. So I had to like do that. And I did all the things. And I was called right away.

And I'm up at the window with this guy named Ryan. He was so cute. He was pretty hot, actually. Ryan's always hot. And I'm like, we're at the end. It's almost happening. Like, I'm getting at my license today. see the hold and the way my heart sunk. He was like, it says there's a hold on your license in Georgia.

And I was like, no, no, no, no. I'm like so retramatized from Calversie. And I was like, I can't leave it's happening. And I was like, can you please help me? Like, I don't know what to do. I called them. Like, I don't know what to do. Can you just please like figure out what's going on so I can know what I can do. Like my license is valid. I can show you right now. And he was like, let's figure this out for you. Let me go get a manager and we're going to figure this out for you. And he was like, I'm holding all your stuff. Go sit back down and we're going to figure this out. So I go sit back down within like five minutes. They called me back over.

He was like, it was a glitch in the system. We've gotten them to take the hold off. You're good to go. I was like, thank you so much. And I tell him what happened to me at Culver City. He was like, I can't believe that. He was like, I can't believe she ripped it up. He was like, I have never ripped up a paper in my life.

And I was like, right? It was insane. Listen, I'm not saying that's an easy job, right? That's a hard job. I was also being so nice. And you're like, don't start no shit. There will be no shit. Right.

So the DM be so interesting to me and how nasty to people. because like, listen, I know that people are stupid. Not in Hollywood. You work in restaurants your whole life and you're like, people are morons. But like, it's normal to expect that people are in restaurants every single day and have access to restaurants every day and probably go out to three times a week some people.

The average person is in DMV once a decade. There's no like reasonable expectation that you would have any idea what to do. So the fact that they're so rude to you is crazy because they're like so exasperated by how dumb you are. But it's like, I'm not dumb. This is not a normal thing for me to do all the time. Right. And so Ryan,

hooks me up. We get, we're good to go. And then he's like, go over here and get your picture. The guy that took the picture was so nice. Everything's perfect. My picture was perfect. Everything was perfect. And then they sent me back to go take the test. I was so anxious. And you're in this room. You have your like monitors. And I'm thinking to myself like, I'm going to pass this fucking test. Even if I like fail at once, I'll pass. And then I hear the girl next to me. She had just failed. And there's a woman walking around, monitor and everybody. Again, she was super nice. And she was like, I'm so sorry, sweetie. You're going to have to come back tomorrow. And I go, what? I said, can we not take it again? And she was like, not today. She was like, it's just kind of dependent on like the day if we can let you guys do retakes

and say we're not allowing retakes. And I was like, what the fuck? And I was like, no! And I'm like, I don't get this license today. Also, by the way, one day was this July 3rd. Like, we were leaving on the 6th and I was going to come back and my license was going to be expired. And I was like, you can get into a country with your passport. And then I was like, oh, you can't drive a car without a driver's license.

And I mean, you had a similar experience. You said people were like talking to themselves. Like I was talking to myself through the test. My biggest fear was that you were going to take the test and be like, Rana, this is the easiest thing I've ever done. So, because I complained, me and Anushka and Kate, everybody complained about how hard this was. And I thought you were going to be like, I aced it.

Well, I passed the first try. Yes, you did. You can miss eight again. And so if anyone's curious, there's 44 questions. You can miss eight. It does tell you when you get one wrong immediately. Yeah. Maybe you told me this and I forgot.

Oh, that's why I'm panicking. So you're sweating. You're like sweating. And then again, you had said, you don't know where the end is. So you're not like 42 and you've gotten five wrong and you're like, well, even if I get the best wrong, I still pass. Like, you don't know where you're at. You're not counter.

All I'm counting is my wrong guesses. And I was like, I'm at six. I'm in six. I have two more. I'm sweating so hard. Because again, I found it to most questions to be common sense. But like some are really hard the way word them. And then one was like a quarter mile, third of a mile or a half a mile.

I'm like, guys, that's too close. That's too close. And so when I passed it, I felt like I was going to scream. And anyway, then I was like good to go. And it was like really so special. And just shout out to the Hollywood DMB and Ryan and fuck the Culver City DMV and that was my experience. I was so, so happy you passed on the first try.

But I really was where you're going to be like, granted, this is the easiest thing. No. It was also my birthday week. I deserved it. Yeah. And I feel like everyone really scared you into like getting it right. Yeah. We're California residents now.

I know. We really did it. We really did it. The license isn't pretty photos. Both of our photos were good. And it's funny because I kind of forgot. I wore like a color that looks good, but it's just your head. You know what I mean?

So the background of the California license is blue. And I wore a color. It's your head. But I wore a color that would match with the blue and it is just your head. Yeah. Unless you wear a turtleneck. But I had all my hair extensions in. I had full face of makeup.

I was like, I contoured for this. I'm not leaving. Oh my God. I'm like when I were in a caper on the wolf's tray. I'm not like, and that woman when I was like, wait, so I can't take it. And she goes, honey, you got this. You're going to pass. I can't tell you how nice these people were.

You should go back to the Culver City one, find that woman, hold up your license and be like, huge mistake. Big mistake. You work in commission? She's like, no. I'm like, big mistake. Huge. She's like, fuck you. God, I hate that.

What a miserable person. And it's so crazy because, like, you work in the DMB and you do the same thing every day. you know, you're just kind of like pushing papers, doing the same thing. Like, someone comes and there's a thing that you could help them fix. Like, you actually are deciding not to go another step above and beyond to like help someone make their day. And then you're also a problem solver. Like, you give so little about your job and other people and you somehow look working in this job that requires to interact with other people. Like, that's what's just so crazy.

It's like, don't work here, man. It's so crazy. I don't understand it. Every person around me was being so kind, so smart, so nice, trying to, like, reason with these people. I have the same experience as you. Every piece of paper that she asked for that I gave her correctly, I could tell the, like, skeptical. Like, gotcha.

It was, like, very, like, wanting to, like, fuck with you. It took, like, the wind out of her sales. And I gave her, like, two utility bills. And our business manager's office address is on one of my utility bills. And so she just hands it back to me. And she's like, this is a New York address. And I was like, I have my lease with me. Gotcha.

Right. That's what she said to me, too. she was like, this says New York on it. Like, that's the billing address. It says service address right on it. Totally. They were like, nope, they gave it right back to me. And I was like, oh, I'm just like,

masturbating to the whole thing. I know, she's like, I'm going to get this bitch. And you're right. It's so funny because everyone in there is scared and being nice. Yes. Like, it's not the type of thing where it's a bunch of like pieces of people who were like abusing the staff. There was two guys on both sides.

I mean, one was maybe 40. One was like 30. Both of them could have been nicer. Had all of these things. One guy lost his license, the other one was renewing, everybody was just abusing everybody. Yeah. And the guys that were trying to get their license couldn't have been nicer. Do you ever see people have been too nice where it's like cringe?

The guy next to me was being too nice. There was in front of me that like, he just wanted to talk to the picture taking eye. I was like, stop. He doesn't want this. Okay, compare it to the level of how nice I am at Avis when I'm trying to use that code that we shouldn't be using. You're normal nice. I'm creepy nice. When people are too much, it's a little suss.

You're right. I should dial it back. No, I think you're good. I am so embarrassed when you're near me at the Avis counter. I'm just like, she's going to hear some shit. I'm just like, how's your day going? Well, it's almost like when you are trying to get away with something, you just like filibuster it.

You just talk, talk, talk, hoping they won't notice. Yes, hoping they won't notice. I shouldn't be using this discount code. Well, we can't use anymore. It's over. It's over for us. We need a good run. Yeah, so it's over.

Anyway, that's about it. We have a great episode for you guys today. We'll get into it. We've great episodes all summer. We've some really fun returning guests. Oh my gosh. I can't wait. Yes, Mark Hanson, today.

We record this a few weeks ago. So if anything feels weirdly said in terms of my relationship, Ashley wasn't in one. I don't know. I can't actually remember. You were in the airspace of one. So I think I... You were hovering around one. Yeah.

I was just toyed with the idea. So anyway, just keep that in mind. This is like a couple weeks ago back that we recorded with him. Okay. Okay. Okay, guys. We are very excited to welcome back our guest today. He's sort of an unconventional self-help guru.

He is a three-time number one at New York Times best-selling author of many books, including the subtle art of not giving a fuck, as well as other titles. His books have sold over 20 million copies. They've been translated into more than 65 languages and reached number one in more than a dozen countries. In 2003, a feature film about his life and ideas were released worldwide by Universal Pictures. I watched it last night to fall asleep. Free-ah!

Please welcome back to the show, Mark Manson. You could add that to my resume. It's like a sleep aid. It'll put you right to sleep. Aid. Put it in the call map. Best-selling author in Sleep Aid. Yeah.

Mark, thanks for coming. You are only here because you're in the neighborhood. Yeah, apparently we just always live five minutes away from each other. We've been following you. You recorded with us in my first apartment, the first place we ever did the podcast, which was a trap house quite honestly. And you walked in here and were like quite an upgrade. And I was like, oh, right.

You were one of those guests from the early days. Is he like the most famous, traditionally famous person was in that apartment? The first, yeah, like one of the first. that I was like, oh my gosh, this guy's just in this apartment on this IKEA couch. But one thing I'll say about you is I would think most people know your name, but even if they don't, they probably quote you without realizing it. Do you feel like that? I guess.

I don't know. It's funny because like sometimes I forget stuff that I wrote. Totally. Like I'll come up with something that I think is really clever and then I'll show it to like my social media manager. And she's like, yeah, we posted that two years ago. I feel that. Sometimes I'll be like, actually, I have this really good idea for an

episode and she'll be like, we did that. We did that. People like, they start the podcast from years back and then they're sending messages and we're like, girl, that is so old. You know, you're like, that's a five-year-old bit. I don't remember doing. And she's like, this is so, you know, they start sending me memes

about it. I'm like, please. But I just think like, fuck yes or no and obviously that's the most, I hear quoted by other people. Yeah. Fuck yes or no. That one seemed to like penetrate the culture, especially like dating culture. It's in the zeitgeist. Yeah, it's like I run into, that everywhere. Like I see like random people posting on social media about it, about like whether

they agree with it or not. I actually wrote it 10 years ago. Yeah, I was an OG fan of your blog, like pre-books. Yeah. Not me, just the books. It's the first book I ever bought on tape. It was the first blogs that I read that told you like how long it was going to be. Wait, what? Wait, what? Eight minute read. Did you come up with that? Yeah, well, it's funny because I, like, downloaded, like, a pre-designed website theme, and it had that in it. And I was like, oh, that's cool. Like, lazy people will know what to click on and whatnot to. I'm the lazy one.

Rain is the one that watches you to go to sleep. I was just, I'm very tired recently. I was, I took so many diligent notes, but I was like, one eye open. I was also sending Ashley a voice note every, like, couple minutes. I had to pause it a lot. We don't talk enough. So I was sending her more. But I really laughed because you said the last time you interviewed with us that,

one of us was really hungover and being sort of inappropriate. We were like, that was me. Okay. That was definitely me. It doesn't sound like Ashley. Not much has changed from that. We're in a different studios. To me,

that's a feature, not a bug of this podcast. So, I drink at home alone a lot more than Ashley. Yeah, duh. And Reyna will go, I haven't drank all week,

but she just means I haven't like blacked out all week. When you say I haven't been drinking all week, it means I've been by myself. It means I've been drinking alone all week. It just means I haven't had social plans in the water. So you just were like, I haven't drank this week. Then I'm like, except every night. I had one bottle of wine solo.

Anyway, if it's biodynamic, it doesn't count. Natural wine, no hangovers. I love that. Okay, Mark, can you just give us an update since 2019? Because you did live in New York then. I lived in New York. I wrote a book with Will Smith pre-slap. Which went really well, pre-slap.

Yeah. And then I moved to L.A. And, oh, and I made a movie. So that's about it. I mean, that sounds like so little. That's like... No, it doesn't. It sounds like a lot.

I didn't do that much. And you and your wife moved out to L.A. together and now you're here. And I mean, just so our audience knows, like same type of reason as us, like just a lifestyle change, quality of life type of thing. For sure. I love New York for many years. And I don't know, something clicked in 2021. It's funny because, you know, during the pandemic, my wife and I were very like, we're not giving up on New York.

We're not going to abandon it. We're not one of those people. And then when everything opened back up, we were like, huh, yeah, fuck this. Like, I could use, I miss the peace and quiet. Right. There's no more trash people and trash men.

You know, let me walk this back. There are trashy people and trash men, but they're garbage men. I'm not articulating. I thought you were doing like a gender neutral thing. Like you didn't want to use garbage man. You wanted to use garbage people. Garbage people. garbage people.

That's a whole different thing. I was like, wow, it's so 21st century. That's just the Republican Party. Well, being of things that make you happy, I watched documentary last night, and I loved it, and I took so many notes while you were talking. And there were so many themes of, like,

things that we think are going to make us happy and this culture that is pushing this, you coin, like, delusional positivity on us. And if we just do more, make more money, travel more, fuck more, we'll be happy and just stave off all these, like, if I'm sad, just push it away. And instead of like doing this work

and sitting in the negativity, and things that will actually make us happy. So that really, for me, was like a big theme of it. And I loved it, and we'd love to talk to you about that stuff. Sure. Yes. And also, is there a difference or a clarification between delusional positivity and toxic positivity?

Because you hear toxic positivity in the Zite. That's nice. Those are the garbage people. The garbage people are outside. If you can hear, they're right outside the door. We're not going to assume they're gender. It's actually not such an upgrade from 2019. They're closer now.

Yeah. They're going to turn on the leaf blowers. Are you serious? We'll say. Okay. The audience can't hear it, but it gets loud here on Tuesdays. So it's really not great to record, but we keep doing it. We only record on Tuesdays, oddly.

Okay, so delusional positivity. Delusional positivity, toxic positivity. I mean, I guess delusional positivity I would classify as like a form of toxic positivity. I would say the definition of toxic positivity is any sort of like positive mindset or positive thinking that actually harms you in the long run. Maybe it feels good in the short run, but it actually kind of fucks your life up in the long run. So delusional positivity is one way of doing that. Another form of toxic positivity, I would just call narcissism, like self-aggrandizing, adopting beliefs about yourself, that you're better than other people, that you're cooler in other people, that everybody's jealous of you, you know, etc., etc.

You know, it can happen in a lot of ways. But I think a lot of what conventional self-help teaches is kind of a form of delusional positivity. You know, it's imagine you own a Ferrari even though you don't, right? It's like you're going to like magically manifest it out of the thin air or something. So that's kind of what I'm critical of. Okay. And how do we like recognize it, not buy into it? You know, I just think there needs to be, especially in this day and age, like just kind of like an uncomfortable dedication to reality, even when it's unpleasant.

You know, like just acknowledging and accepting the unpleasant thoughts and possibilities about yourself. That doesn't mean dwell on them or obsess about them. It just means like recognize that, you know, hey, stuff sucks sometimes. We all have insecurities. We all have flaws. That's okay. It doesn't mean you're a bad person. You don't need to judge yourself for it.

So in that sense, I almost think like mental health is more based on our relationship with negative thoughts rather than our relationship with positive thoughts. Okay. So you sent me that meme. I think we talked about it last week also that said like gratitude is not an answer. Because I think that people are always like, just feel grateful for what you have. be happy with what you've been given. It's like, oh, why didn't I think of that? Yeah. Why didn't I just be grateful for it? And then just move on. It's like, people have so many

mental health issues that can't just be solved with. I should be happy with what I have right now. Yeah. I think a lot of good tools often get pitched or sold as complete solutions. And I think like gratitude is one of those. Like gratitude, it's a nice little tool, right? It's like if you want to feel a little bit better each day or feel better in the morning or if you're upset about something and you want to remind yourself that your life's not a total dumpster fire. Yeah, a little bit of gratitude is helpful. But it's not going to solve anything, right? And that's just, that's true with a lot of these little techniques that you see on Instagram or whatever. So I want to just dive into this, like, mental health is more about the negative thoughts and the positive thoughts. Like,

how do we explain that to our listeners, maybe aren't so familiar with you and your documentary and all these things, like kind of start from square one? Because that can sound a little negative. Sure. You know? Yeah. It is. I'm like looking at your book, everything is fucked. Yeah, exactly. That's my gig. So my argument is basically like positivity is relatively easy.

You know, we all like good things. We all like feeling good. We all like it when good things happen to us or good things happen in our lives. So that's not where the sticking point is for most people, I think. I think what actually trips people up is that they don't know how to deal with their problems well. Okay. And instead of dealing with their problems, they try to imagine. a life without problems, which doesn't exist.

I see. Okay. So, you know, my starting point is like, look, problems are inevitable. Like, it doesn't matter how much money you make, how awesome your relationship is, how much you love your job, like life is full of problems. You're always going to have problems. There's always going to be issues. There's always going to be things that go wrong or tragedies or whatever. The question is, is like, how good are you at managing and confronting those problems? And if you're always trying to avoid them, you're going to be terrible at management. them and you're going to be awful at confronting them. So you might as well get good at managing

and confronting the problems and dealing with the negative because once you do that, you can just enjoy the positive when it shows up. I think it's very hard to get comfortable with those negative thoughts, which is something I was like listening to talk about and instead people want to put this band-aid on it of just get a raise, I'll make more money, I'll be happier, just find this romantic partner, they'll fill up my tank and I'll be happier. It's not these quick solutions because an incremental raise is awesome, and I would love that, but it's not going to make me happier. Sure. Or it'll make you happy for like a week, and then you'll be like, oh, shit, I have more responsibility now. Like, this is hard. Yeah. And it introduces a new problem, a new form of problem,

right? So, you know, one of the things I say in my books is that, like, improving your life isn't going from problem to no problem. It's going from problem to slightly better problem. Like, it's better to get a raise and have more responsibility and have, that be your problem, then the problem be that you get paid shit and your boss is an asshole, right? So it's like you're improving upon your problems. And I think what you kind of mention right now is like people often succumb to this kind of treadmill of, well, if I just get a little bit more money, if I just get a new car, if I just get a house, if I just lose 10 pounds. If I just lose 10 pounds, if I just get a boyfriend, like it's going to make me, like that's the thing that's going to

make me happy. And then you get it. And then the thing that makes you happy for a moment brings new problems with it. So then you find something else to be like, oh, well, that's going to make me happy. And we kind of just end up on this psychologist called the hedonic treadmill. And you're just a rat running in place, you know, chasing a piece of cheese hanging in front of you. You know, I think the only way to kind of escape that is to stop looking for things that are going to, you know, eliminate your problems and instead of like find the problems you enjoy having. Right. Yeah. To tie us in the relationships, the perfect partner is not the partner that you have no problems with. That partner doesn't exist. The perfect partner is a partner that you have good

problems with, that your strengths counterbalance their weaknesses and their strengths counterbalance your weaknesses, that you argue over things that are important and feel meaningful, rather than arguing over things that feel stupid and pointless. A partner that when you have conflict, it makes both of you better rather than tearing both of you down. That's what a healthy relationship looks like. Healthy relationship still has plenty of conflict. It's just that conflict makes both of you stronger rather than the other way around. That's amazingly well said. That happens in our relationship. Yeah. Every time we have to have, huh? Just honestly throw it across the room. I mean, that's perfect. We always say that every time we actually have a conflict, which is not a lot.

We have to kind of hash it out twice a year, sometimes quarterly, depending on the year. And it's just strength. It strengthens. It's like it's time for a quarterly conflict. No, really. We used to hug quarterly, but now we've been hugging more. But yeah, quarterly conflicts, quarterly hugs. But I just kind of unlocked my memory that our first episode with you was this concept that I am so huge on and how people, but a lot of men, a lot of men in New York and other

places too. But they're looking for perfection in a partner. And it's the next best thing. You know, if we tie this into conflict, it's like, I'm just going to find somebody that's this hot and this cool that I don't fight with. You know, like, it's always just a feeling of people might be disposable and you can actually find perfection and someone that has all the things you want. Sure. And then you also doesn't challenge you in any way and you don't fight with, which is totally unrealistic.

But, I mean, you were really one of the first people we had on that kind of validated this. You have to decide to stop and invest in someone, knowing that perfection is not realistic. Yeah. My perpetually single friends, the thing I always tell them is like, what are your non-negotiables? because at some point, like every single, I don't care how amazing the person you find is, there's going to be something that bugs you about them. And so you're going to have to, if you're going to stick with somebody over the long haul, like you're going to have to compromise on things.

So the question becomes, what are you willing to compromise on? And what's non-negotiable? What is like just absolutely off the table, you have to have that in a partner. And I think having clarity around that is really important because otherwise, you kind of just, it's too easy for you to find lame reasons to stop seeing somebody. You know, it's especially in this day and age with, you know, the amount of options and apps and everything. Like, it's just so easy to be like, oh, well, you know, his elbows are funny. So I don't think I'm going to call him back. Like, it's, it's silly. But, like, you have to

prioritize which traits you're looking for and which qualities you're looking for and then stick to it. Yeah. I think there's problems with every decision you make and everything is hard. You just have to choose the hard that you want. So being alone is hard and you feel lonely and you don't have people to like go to brunch with on Sunday. You don't have a significant other eye people to go to brunch with. But you know, you might miss consistent sex or whatever it is, but then you take on a partner and the hard part of that is accepting maybe their elbows are stupid. Or, you know, you hate the way that they breathe. Like all these things are hard, but just choose which problem you kind of want to have. Exactly. And then lean into it. Well, I think one thing I like love discussing and love to think

about and I'm curious what you think of is you have to realize, that humans aren't perfect and a lot of things you might perceive as flaws go in tandem with the strength. Like if they were a different type of way, they wouldn't be the good thing that you like. And let's take a guy, for example. You're like, you might have this guy that maybe he isn't as successful as like the alpha male CEO type that you want. But he's like so emotionally in tune and so attentive and so thoughtful and all these things. And it's like you're probably not going to get the rich hedge fund guy with the Ferrari that's also the crazy attention. attentive, thoughtful, prioritizing you, like, adores you so much.

Tradeoffs to everybody. I just think people have to realize that. I think this happens with you and I. I think sometimes something about me might bother her, but what comes with it is like perfectionism and drive and all these things. And every once in a while, my tone is too aggressive. And we have no problem addressing issues with each other. But she realizes like the good always the bad.

And sometimes you just have to take a little bit of the bad because that's kind of what goes in tandem with the good. Yeah, I think every defining trade of somebody. has a drawback. So if you want the super successful CEO, well, the dude's going to be working seven days a week, he's going to be at the office all the time, you're going to be second priority a lot of time.

So I think it's often more useful to think of not what are the positive traits that you want in somebody, but what are the drawbacks that you can live with or that you actually might even enjoy, that you might even benefit from. Maybe you're a workaholic and you're like, yeah, I want plenty of time to work on my stuff too. And I don't want a guy who's always feeling

that he's second place to me. So, you know, that works. My best guy, friend, we're not romantically. We've slept together, but we're not romantically ever going to be involved. But I didn't have to say that, but you just did. I mean, let it be known. I mean, I've tried it. I sniffed around.

He's six for, he's Jewish. I'm not going to not going to take a ride, you know? I tried it out for better off his friends. Took it for a test drive. Yeah. But, you know, I think about him a lot in this scenario, because I'm just like on the one hand, this is somebody who like, I wouldn't ever pick up the phone if I was having like a real emotional breakdown.

That's not my person. But he's like a real acts of service person. That is the first person I call if I need help with like, I was moving. And Ashley couldn't be in town with me. And so like he was the person I called to like help me at the boxes and like work with the movers. And like he is the person that like shows up on time to do those things with you. But the reason why that can't be like my romantic partner is my non-negotiable is

somebody who can support me emotionally. Yeah. And I mean, I love him very much. but I can hire a task grab up for this other stuff. Yeah, yeah. And I have. And then they are actually awesome. I try to fuck them too, actually.

They are also supporting her emotionally. But I do, I just think it's really important. And I also think this is something I feel like I'm realizing in real time. You might have things you didn't even know that were important to you that someone has. And you're like, oh my God, there's this other thing I thought that was super high in my list that they don't have.

But then there's this thing I hadn't even really realize that, like, is so special and important. and, you know, that actually takes precedence over the other thing. Yeah, it's interesting because sometimes, yeah, you think you know what your list is and then you actually go out and date people with those traits and you realize like, oh, this doesn't make me happy at all. It actually makes me miserable. And then the flip side can happen too.

You know, I've had three serious long-term relationships in my life and they're just like very odd commonalities between all three of them. Okay. That I'm just like, well, clearly that's a thing. Like, that's just something in my personality. you know, it's like anxiety issues, like super clean, certain sleep habits. Like, how did all, every woman I've ever fallen in love with end up with these exact same quirks in them? And it's not that I would like go look for that, but it's just, it's an interesting thing to see that that that just seems to be what works with my personality.

You said this thing that like I thought was really interesting. You said like we create our own worldviews. When it doesn't serve us anymore, we forget that like we created the worldview. And it's like you've built this idea of what you want. in a partner or a job or whatever, but you're the person that can change it. You don't have to do that anymore. I want to elaborate on that. Yeah, I want to talk about it a little bit. Yeah, I mean, especially when it comes, I guess when it comes to dating too, it's often very hard to differentiate what we are actually attracted to and I guess what the culture has told us is attracted.

Totally. Yes. And it's very hard to parse those two things. And I think to a certain extent, again, you have to go out and date it and then just be very, very honest of like, does this actually make me happy? Am I actually turned on with this person or with this trait? And in a lot of cases, the answer is no. And you have to be willing to admit that to yourself. I always come back to this quote that a friend told me and she just said, it may not look like what you think it's going to look like. And I think we get really wrapped up in that a lot when we're younger too and we actually haven't gone out and experienced all of it where you're like, but I'm supposed to have this, you know, whatever dumb shit. Like six.

Six-foot, six figures, six, whatever, like, dumb stuff like that. If you're just talking about women, straight women, what culturally, societally, you've kind of been told through whatever, even dating back to Disney movies, what you're supposed to want in a man. Yeah.

And you start to realize that you might date those men. They aren't great. They may not support you emotionally. Yeah. And you have to shift it a little bit, but like you have to. What I want is seven figures. We could...

I would love eight. If eight's on the table, I'll take eight. We're so glad to have a platform like this and really smart, evolved friends to talk this through. And I had a friend kind of tell me that. But until you hear that, you're like, wait, I can decide. Also, who cares? I used to get wrapped up in like what other people would think.

Like, are they going to think that person's good enough for me? And I'm like, they actually don't. No one cares. I said that to you last night. I was like, my last boy, was a fucking bum. No one was talking about me behind my back. I can't believe she fucking dated him. Because, like, I rode for him.

And I was like, that person supports me, even though he's kind of a bomb. You keep saying bum as of late, and I just can't. We're bringing back a bum. But I just, your opinion is the one that matters. And, like, I almost think it boils down to self-worth. Like, you have to decide that you're worthy of making the decision. Like, I chose this person. Like, that's my choice.

And that matters a lot as opposed to, like, what my friends or my family might think. I think that's a really good point. I also think a lot of it is self-awareness. So, like, everybody exists on a range of, you know, how much emotional support do they need? Some people need very little to feel happy. Some people need a lot to feel happy. Some people need a little bit of sex to feel happy. Some people need a lot of sex to feel happy.

You know, you could go down the list. And I think it's very important to figure that out for yourself. Like, what are your needs? What are your priorities? what makes you happy in a relationship and just recognize the areas where like, oh, well, most people need this thing or want this thing, but I don't really need that.

It doesn't really seem to affect me a whole lot. And that's okay. Then I don't have to look for it. It's a good exercise to look at other relationships around you. And Ash and I've talked about that and say, like, which ones do I emulate? And, like, a lot of times it's like, not that many. Like, you get to create the thing that you want, you know? Like, even the friends of mine that have found people to make, like, a ton of money

X, Y, Z. I wouldn't take their relationships. That's not the one that I would be in. Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, ultimately, going back to just this, your partner's not supposed to be everything anyway. You know, they're not supposed to be your best friend

and your confidant and your lover that, you know, rocks your world and, you know, all these things that people kind of want. It can be a lot of it. But that's not realistic, too. That's a little bit of like the fairy tale, too. Yeah. Things get hyped in our heads, right? Yeah.

Like, things get romantic. emphasized relationships. Not only are they not necessarily always everything in the same person, but like they evolve over time. You know, like you grow closer, grow apart, come back together. You know, there are times like I, yeah, I've been with my wife for a decade now and it's, every year is different, right? Like every year, depending on what's going on in our lives, it's kind of the nature of our connection evolves and changes. And that's fine. There's like no right way, like there's no way you have to be all the time. I think that's great to remember too.

And I think we can get kind of wrapped up in this like, but it used to be this way. Kind of forget. And of course, you should notice someone's not treating you the same way with the same, like, love, respect, showing up for you all those types of things. But I think that's just a really important sentiment. Yeah. Like, you're actually going to be with somebody for 10 years, even five years, 20 years, 50 years. Like, you're going to have so many different relationships. Yeah.

within that time period. Totally. Can we talk about this notion of like blaming the whole world for your problems and not being able to take responsibility and like how to get comfortable doing that? Because I do think you can relate this to dating

by saying like, well, I just live in this city and every person is a piece of shit, which like I got caught up in that. Like I was true. It's not always true. I mean, listen, I think New York is like trashed date sometimes but it's not like I was on hinge every single day just like knocking out dudes going on a ton of dates.

Like did I try that much? No. Yeah. And we all know those people in our lives. that like everything is someone else's problem. They are such a victim. Yes, some people are real victims of real things in the world. But like people that it's just like, it's always, you know, the world is against me.

And you can apply that to day that every guy ghosts me. Every guy's terrible to me. Like how do we like stop blaming the world for things and take some responsibility? I think people who do that, what they're looking for is sympathy, compassion, a little bit of validation. And I think that's fine. But the mistake comes is they're unintentionally disempowering themselves. So when you say, I can't do anything, every guy in the city is a piece of shit. So I'm just, I'm helpless.

You know, like, it's, that might make you feel better about your problem in that moment or in that conversation. But every time you repeat that, you are disempowering yourself from actually going out and finding a relationship that'll make you happy. So people have to become aware of that and be very careful about it. There's always something you can be doing. I don't care what the situation is. I don't care how legitimately you've been victimized. There's always something you can be doing in every moment, every problem, like no matter how dire or hopeless it is, you can be doing something.

And so I think it's useful to simply focus on that. Like what is the thing, even if it's a tiny, tiny thing, what is the thing I can be doing to improve the situation? And if you do that enough and you get the ball rolling, you'll actually start to see some change. and you'll become more optimistic about how things are going to go. Do you have examples of some things? I think the dating example is actually really good because it's such a common thing.

And what's funny about the dating example is that I've seen, especially in New York, like I've had female friends and male friends, like have the exact same complaint at the same time of like there's nobody good out there. None of the men in this city give a shit or like want to commit to anything. And then the next day I'll hang out with. you know, another friend. They're like, none of the women in this city give a shit or want to commit to anything. And it's just the same complaints over and over again.

I think in the context of dating, there's a lot to be said of like, how are you filtering or screening for people you're interested in, right? Like, what are the boxes you're checking on somebody that you're actually going to pursue? And it's like if you're consistently getting the same result that's not making you happy, well, maybe you should look at the starting point, which is what's the filtration system you've set up for yourself? Because that's probably where it's going wrong. Yeah, and look outside the city. Go outside your apartment sometimes.

That's my problem. Yeah. I am like the humidization. Like the meme, it's like, if he wants me, he'll find me on the couch. Yeah. Right. I mean, like, I had a friend in New York who was always complaining about that. And I'm like, well, where are you meeting these girls?

And he's like, in a bar, drunk on a Wednesday. And I'm like, well, there you go. Like, if you really want a girlfriend, maybe you should like, I don't know, go to a library or something. go to the library. Yeah, are you guys even going to the library? Yeah, go to a bookstore. Like, go to a coffee shop, I don't know. Yeah.

Talk to somebody when the sun's up. For me, it's very helpful to recognize patterns and the people that I've picked, you know? And at least like what I'm going after every single time. And it's come to the same result. And whether they sort of look different on the service, they are all the same if you sort of like date deeper. And it's like people that are just not available for a relationship

for whatever reason. I think I've always sought that out. was people that don't ever want to live in the same city as me. They're not the same age as me. They're never going to want to be the same stuff as me. I haven't made a lot of changes, but at least I don't realize the bad. She's still talking to all of them. They're all task rabbits.

It's such a strange pattern. Like, you think we're joking. They're in the rotation. We have gone on dates with task rabbits. Great way to meet people, though. This is the whole thing. They're coming to your house, you know? They're finding her on the couch.

Yeah, exactly. me that. They're building the couch. They build the couch and she's on it. It depends on what your goal is. I think you have to figure that out first. Like if my goal was have children, which it's not, then I would change my dating strategy. I'm in a unique position that I can do things that I enjoy for however long I enjoy them because I don't have like a biological expiration date on dating for me. Or if I was just like, you know what I really want is to be a stay at home, whatever. Then I would pick an income bracket of people that can support me. I don't have to date like that. I mean, I just think there's so much to be said for doing something different and it can be small. We've had this guest on. His name is John

Berger and he's written two books and his first book is Datonomics and that's kind of like why your city might be really tough to date and it can feel a little depressing but also just super validated. And then you're just armed with the information of like what you're up against, which I think is always important. And then the next book is kind of like actual stuff you can do. And I think one of the things that I love the most just as an example is getting off the apps and trying something different. And like thinking about people you already know, I mean, that's kind of what I did as of late. It was like someone that I already knew that was into me. I'm like, let me just shoot him a message.

And now, you know, here we are. But things that you may have not done before because you were just like, I'm just in this swiping world or this meet people at bars, drunk world. Actually considering doing something a little bit differently for once just to try it. I like the point of, again, it comes back to understanding yourself, like what do I want? What are my goals in this part of my life? What's my long-term vision? Do I want to have kids? Do I want to get married?

What are my career ambitions? All that stuff plays a role. Some of this, too, is age plays a factor. I mean, you guys have been doing this for a long time now. I imagine your priorities have evolved over time. I know when I was in my 20s, like, I just wanted sexy, exciting shit all the time. And then by the time I got to 30, I'm like, eh, it's getting kind of old. like want something a little bit more stable, mature.

Substance. Yeah. So I think that's part of it. Have you guys noticed, well, you've only been here a few months, but have you noticed like a big difference in the dating experience here in L.A. versus New York? I think we have different experiences. I feel like I went on some fun dates here.

I just had a good positive experience, but I also moved here with a totally fresh, different mindset. Like I was down on New York. And I don't want to stay through in the towel, but especially close to the end. knowing I was leaving and just knowing that I was going to kind of start fresh with the new year, new city reinvigorate to date. And I really felt like that. And I felt like I put myself in situations to date and to meet people and did pretty well. And then, I mean, as we stand right now,

I'm with somebody on the East Coast, of course. That's how it works. Like, obviously, you know, that was my mindset. And it's just like, I guess the advice there is move. No, I'm kidding. But date like a tourist. Yeah. So it's tough. I mean, Raina can kind of speak on the types of guys. She feels like it's a little bit different. But I've enjoyed it thus far. Yeah.

But it keeps going back to like the framing of your own mind and getting out of this like negative New York is fucked, you know, which is my own shit. But our experience here is that people are just pretty flaky. And I've had men and women to both echo with that, like, that it's hard to get to the date. I was talking to my neighbor. And he's a gorgeous Ivy League educated man who's like successful. And he's like, it's hard to get somebody to show up for a date. And I was like, you have a hard time getting somebody to show.

Right, that's validating. But in New York, it is so much just like everybody has so many options and they exercise them a lot. And it's just hard to like get somebody to like commit to plans, show up for the plan, and then like text you the next day and follow through. And I just, I think people are working with a larger roster in a city like New York. Yeah. The issue I've always heard there was like the paradox of choice.

Like everybody always has five things going on at the same time. And so the second they're even slightly. interested in you. They're like, oh, I'll go to this other person. The flaky thing here makes sense. Like, it's, I found that even with friendships. To get anywhere in L.A. is such a commitment. Yeah. That it's like, yeah, you have to really like the person or really be interested to make that effort. So that makes sense. Yeah. And New York, I never noticed an issue getting to the date, but a lot are one and done. Guys in New York, like, they ask you out, you're probably going to go out with them. You're probably going to have a really dope date. And then you probably won't hear from

You go on the dates It can be really fun If that's what you're okay with But it's a bunch of first dates Yeah You know and I did that too I mean I was a person That went on a bunch of first dates

And didn't want to go on the second For whatever reason I was like that was a fun night That's not my person I'm gonna keep it moving Yeah we're guilty of it too Yeah and I think it's a lot of It's like self-reflection of like

We want to take things personally sometimes And you're like But I do that too Because I'm a human You end up treating someone badly Or not responding to them Or leaving them unred Or quote unquote ghosting them

Because you're just like that was just a person from an app. They just live in my phone. You sometimes need to self-reflect and like, I do that shit too. You know, it's so easy to be like, this person did this and all guys are bad and this. And you're like, but I can be an asshole too. It's the responsibility thing, right? It's like they're not a bad person. They're just human. Yeah. Like you're a human. I'm curious, like the first time I did you guys show, like I think you had only been doing it for like six months or something. I'm curious, have you found the podcast has affected your dating lives? Like now that this is your job, how is it affected?

did this part of your life. I always say it's helping to just realize that everybody's human. And a lot of people are just trying to do their best. It's made it easier to walk away from bad situations. It's made it easier for me to talk to somebody when I'm in a negative situation or just realize I can have these conversations. They're not going to ruin my life. I've calmed down a lot.

And I think that I'm also just willing to like read the whole situation and be like, I don't hate you, but this doesn't serve me. Yeah. I don't even know where to start with that question. I mean, it's changed our lives completely. I mean, for one, we have way too much information. You know, like, we've really just, we've interviewed everybody in every space. We rain and I have a full ass degree in this at this point.

Like, we know everything. We know too much. Yeah. And from every school of thought, you know, we have a depth of knowledge that is probably pretty. I'd get like the relationship psychology degree, but like no one could do it better than we've already done. Like, who is going to get personal interviews with Esther Perel, Emily Morris, you? I mean, literally the most like famous self-help. Andrew Heerman, like, everybody.

Brilliant minds in the world. We just get to hang out and talk. And then we read all the books and done all the things. But on top of it, we got really successful. So now we're really successful women that talk about sex and dating for a living. Like it's not everyone's cup of tea. Then on top of that, we've met so many people. So the person I'm talking to right now, I wouldn't have met him.

It wasn't for the podcast. Raina, I mean, most of the guys, maybe 100% of the guys you've dated since 2019 when we sat with you on the AKA couch has been from the road or from being on a podcast. All of them. dated a guy because she went on his podcast because of our podcast. So it's helped us meet people in a way that not everybody has the luxury of meeting. So when we feel lucky for that, we like travel the world and we meet people in all these different cities. So it's changed our life in every way for good and for bad, I guess. Sorry, this is my podcast now.

Yeah, no, we love it. This is great. I'll be an interview. I'm actually like I'm legitimately curious. If you want to cut me off. Let me go. Let him go. No, you do us first. Okay. Okay. Is there any anxiety around let's say you're seeing somebody and whether it's going good or bad, is there any anxiety around of like, could this potentially affect the podcast? Could this affect? Like, is this something I can talk about to the audience? Is this something I have to withhold? Like, has the podcast affected it in the other direction? Yeah. I mean, we have talked about this on a lot of interviews and we always just say like sort of case by case basis, person by person basis. If somebody was really private, Ashley says,

you know, that person probably wouldn't want to date us. We get it. You know, I had a long-term serious relationship and he was totally cool with me talking about him on the podcast. I was pretty honest about everything that was going on. I mean, I didn't want to make him look bad ever. But I talked about it and then when we broke up, I had to talk about it and we had to like go on tour the next week. And I was like, we broke up yesterday and we have to record an episode about this today. And I don't know if it benefited me in any way to talk about him and name him. So I probably would never do that again. But yeah, I mean, there's some people that would never date us because they're very private. But most of the time, people have been really almost all the time. People

been pretty open with us being able to say most things. Within reason and respectfully. I mean, I don't know. I'm in this situation now where I'm like, this person knew what I did for years before and liked it, you know, and I really have a lot of respect for him, of course, and how I say things, knowing he's going to listen and then I hope I get it right. And if I don't, then he would call me on it and I would reassess maybe the next story I told

or whatever it is. So we check in with each other before we record. other people's podcast and ours. And I'll say like, how much do you want to talk about this? And she'll say something like, you know, we did one the other day and she was like, just let me lead. And so I think we're pretty good in terms of like what we say. What's interesting about this too is coming back to that point about like what is your filter, like how are you screening who you even have contact with in the first place? Like this job and this lifestyle is kind of automatically filtering a lot of prospects for you guys already.

so that like when they're coming to you, they already know she talks about her dating life consistently to the public. Like she's a public figure. She is an expert on these subjects. So like any guy who's not comfortable with any of that is just like not even going to bother. That's a good point. Yeah, you should really be like all in on it. You know, we actually recorded Nick Vial's podcast yesterday and we talked to this caller.

It was really sweet. It was a great conversation with her. And she was kind of dealing with a situation where this guy she's super into just didn't really accept her and she kept having to like defend. He basically thought she was a witch and she kind of had to defend why she wasn't. But she was like, but I am kind of witchy. And like she had to kind of like redline his concerns.

And I was like, you shouldn't ever have to do that. You know, I feel for this woman and I just, I promise you that someone will accept you and this won't be an issue and you won't have to write them a letter of like why this spell jar doesn't make you a witch. You know that you made for whatever. Like it was kind of like, I'm never going to do that. I know that whatever happens with the person I'm talking to right now, like, he'll never make me do that and whether it works out with him or not.

But like it should feel like that. It should feel like you actually love what I do. You weren't with me in spite of it. Yeah. This is why that cliche advice, just be yourself. I think what that advice is actually trying to communicate is that you want to like aggressively be yourself. Yes.

Because by aggressively being yourself, you are going to self- select the prospects who are going to be most compatible before even having to talk to them. So it's like the more aggressive you are yourself, yes, you screen out a bunch of options and maybe on paper you have fewer options and that's annoying. But the ones you're screening out are the ones who aren't going to work for you anyway. So it's like the ones you're left with are going to be more highly compatible. Yes. And just to like make it more applicable to everybody, like you shouldn't have to sell yourself over and over and over again to somebody. And it should be one conversation and they should have an idea of who you are.

Or defend yourself. And I had a conversation recently with somebody that I had feelings for for quite some time. And I'm not going to put him on blast. But he was like, I have certain issues. And I listen to the podcast and I'm concerned you're going to talk about them. And so I don't really feel super comfortable moving forward with a sexual relationship. And I was like, I would never do that to you and I care about you. And that's like not a thing I would do.

But like that's not sufficient for this person. And so like at some point you just have to like cut your losses. in any relationship. Yeah, and I mean, I don't know if this is Rob original, but our best friend Rob says this a lot when he says the problem at the beginning will be the problem at the end. And I really find it to be true

when I hear about a breakup. Like I almost always, you can trace it back to like that was the issue from the start. Yeah. So if it's a little bit of an issue, this guy doesn't like what we do or whatever it applies to in your life. Like, I'm not going to say it will eventually break you,

but you'll probably find that it'll come back up. Yeah, if something's a problem in like the first three months, it's probably not going to get better. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I want to talk about finding positivity through trauma and traumatic experiences and

relationships. So for me, it was that my fiance left me the day after my engagement party. And for you, you had this insane cheating situation breakup. I mean, you should tell the story. It's crazy.

Can we hear it? Sure. You kind of went on this path of like self-well, I mean, like, shitbaggery and then self-discipline. discovery and now you're with your wife. Shit badgering. Is that his word?

No, I mean, it's accurate. I was a garbage person. A garbage person. Yes. Cue the cans. But I like this concept that like we probably grow the most from the extreme traumas in our life. And I certainly did. So how did you catch her sheet on you?

You got to tell people. He talked about the movie. Yeah. So, okay. First, the point about trauma, which I think is super. important because especially in this day and age, like, I think trauma is talked about. I think it's good that it's talked about so much, but it's still talked about is this, like, people are passive recipients of trauma and they should have all of our sympathy,

and that's it, end of story, you know, whatever. When you actually look at the research on trauma, it's a small minority of people who experience trauma actually develop what would be called like PTSD. I think it's around like 10% of people. 30% of people actually experience something completely different, which psychologists have started calling post-traumatic growth, which is what they find is that around 30% of people will actually, you know, they'll go through the trauma, they'll cope, they'll grieve, they'll have all the depression and the issues and everything. But after a few months, they start making extremely

positive changes in their life and they actually end up in a better place for it. And if you actually go and interview them like a year or two years later, they're like, in hindsight, it's one of the best things that ever happened to me because it made me realize, you know, X, Y, Z. And I finally did the things I was supposed to do. I want to qualify this, by the way. When I say trauma, I don't mean, like, sexual assault. I don't mean being, I don't mean something a parent did too. I mean, like, I had a traumatic experience personally in my relationship. Because those are different to me. It can be whatever. It's relative. And everybody could have super terrible things happen that they also feel like brought so much growth. I mean, this is all just dependent.

I didn't want to diminish. I know what you mean, no, no, no, I understand. And I mean, in the literature, too, I mean, it's across the board. So much of our experience of trauma is ultimately determined by our reaction to it. And so that's, I just wanted to make that point. Yeah. To my own experience, it's hard for me to tell this story without coloring it a ton. It happened so long ago and I'm an adult now and I'm way more mature. So like, well, a little bit more mature. But like, it's hard for me to tell it without like coloring it with my adult eyes. But basically, like, I was a very emotionally dysfunctional young man. And in my teen years, I was very codependent. I had very naive and romantic ideas about love and relationships or whatever.

And so my first girlfriend, who I felt deeply in love with, I was just very ignorant about what to actually expect from the relationship. And the relationship was extremely toxic, although like most people in the middle of a toxic relationship, I didn't realize that. I thought I was just experiencing the throes of passion and love and romance and all that stuff. So, you know, got to ride the roller coaster up and down and up and down. And at one point, I thought all this was normal. I thought we were happy.

I thought things were good. And then all of a sudden, one day I find out that she's cheating on me with her teacher. And the way I found out was that actually one of her guy friends, I guess it's like a brocode thing. Like he, I never met him in my life, but he felt so bad for me that he called me up on the phone and was like, dude, we've never met.

But what she's doing is so fucked up. Like, I have to do this. I'm going, I'm outside her house right now. You know, whatever. And he like had his phone. And he like knocked on the door. She was in there. The teacher was in there.

What? He's like on cheaters. He's like, he's like, he's like, He's like, you're on speaker phone. Was he sleeping with her too? In hindsight, I think he had a crush on her. Okay. And I think he...

Because it came from somewhere. That's extreme. For sure. Yeah. For sure. I think he had a crush on her and I think he was so upset. This is all conjecture at this point. But like, I think he had a crush on her and I think, you know, I was always the reason

he couldn't have her because she had this boyfriend who was in another city. And then when she started banging this other dude, he was like, wait a second. that's not fair. So he puts you on speaker phone and he's like on her front steps. This is literally an episode of cheaters. Yeah. So he calls me, puts me on speaker,

goes, knocks on her door, confronts her. And she's like, what are you doing here? And he's like, is he in here? Like all this shit. And like it, it was so, so ridiculous and dramatic and so like what 19 year olds would do. Anyway, it turns out,

he was there, she was banging him, and she was cheating on me. And so, you know, just had my heart ripped out of my chest and, like, you know, steam rolled on the ground in front of me. But, you know, what was really most shocking and, I guess, traumatic to use that word, was it, it took my whole, like, model and understanding of love relationships. You know, I had a very Disney-fied understanding of relationships at the time, and it just absolutely blew it up. with a hand grenade. And so I didn't know what to replace that with. And I was like, all I know is that my parents' marriage was super fucked up and it didn't work. And then the one girl I've ever loved was super fucked up and that that didn't work. And so I don't know what to do at this point. And so

it kind of like put me down a path of basically just being a douchy fuck boy for a number of years. And that wasn't very satisfying either. And so it just, in hindsight, it took me many, many years of, I guess, being immature and failing and going to therapy and looking back to finally one day look back and realize, like, wait a second, A, that was not a healthy relationship. B, I was deeply codependent, so like, no wonder she fucking cheated on me. And C, like, I did a lot of shitty stuff to her, too, that at the time I, like, wasn't admitting to myself. And so, yeah, I can't be, I mean, I can be upset, but, like, I can't be that upset, right? Like, I was contributing to the relationships dysfunction a lot too.

So that was like a very long process, but ultimately very healthy. And I would say I'm better for it. I mean, 100% if we're just talking relationship trauma, I wouldn't be here today doing this if I didn't have like my relationship trauma in Raina probably feels the same. If she would just marry that dude, oh my God, I can't imagine. But you know, do you ever like talk to somebody that's going through a hard time and like you know they're going to come out so much better? Like you can kind of say it.

But I had moments where I'm like, oh my God, you are going to. thrive. Like once you get passes, like I can feel it. You're so much better off and you have no idea. It'll be a minute. Like you're going to be fucked up for a little bit. It's like take your broken heart, make it into art. Like so many people like find even something else in their life. And we're not just talking about relationship trauma, but I really love that concept that you said and also just the pure statistic of it's not that many people who actually develop like full blown PTSD from their trauma. And a lot of people actually come out better on the other side. Yeah. So Yeah.

That's all I got. Okay. I didn't know. All right. Do you feel like there's anything else you wanted to cover? No, I got a list. How about you? How about you?

Wait, I have more questions. Do more questions for us? We did a podcast for the answer. He was like, what do you guys want to talk about? I was like, oh, I get to pick. Okay. Great. Yeah.

I'm not promoting anything, so. Okay. Well, people should watch your movie. I liked it. It's on a flight near you. Yeah. Yeah. If you can find a screen on American,

maybe you could try to watch it. Your books are great and people should buy them. And then your website and your newsletter are also like fantastic. So tell people where they can find that. Mark Manson.net. And then you can sign up for the newsletter there. And I've been doing a lot more on my YouTube channel. So I'll pipe my YouTube channel today.

Let's do it. Okay. Great. YouTube. Yeah, YouTube. All right. Well, thanks for being here again. Yeah.

In a better studio. Congrats on all your success. Thank you. It's really fun. Yeah. You guys are killing it. Thanks. And you can find us at Girls Gotta Eat.

all the episodes, tour tickets, everything you really want to know about us. And we are Girls Got Eat Podcast on Instagram and TikTok. My social handle is Ash Hess. Raina is Raina. Greenberg and our other company Vibes Only. That's Vivesonly.com and Vibes Only on Instagram as well. And subscribe to us on YouTube while you're over there watching Mark's channel. And we'll see you next week.

Have a good week, guys. Bye.