Girls Gotta Eat - When to End a Relationship (and Stop Stalking Your Ex) with Amy Chan

Episode Date: March 27, 2023

She's baaack! We're so excited to welcome back our friend, GGE favorite, author, and founder of Breakup Bootcamp Amy Chan! We're diving deep into the psychological reasons we stay in dead-end relationships and situationships, how to know when to end things, not falling for "the dangle" (don't worry, we'll explain), and tips for actually breaking it off. And then we discuss stalking your ex online – how it affects your brain and a pro tip for stopping the behavior (or never starting). Before Amy joins us, we're spilling some tea from a recent show, hyping guys who golf, and chatting about having emotional reactions over a person even if you know they're not for you. Enjoy! Follow Amy on Instagram @missamychan and check out more at RewnewBreakupBootcamp.com. Follow us @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit our website for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Shop Vibes Only. Thank you to our partners this week: Pretty Litter: Get 20% off your first order at prettylitter.com/gge. Living Proof: Get 10% off your first purchase at livingproof.com/gge and use code GGELP. Nutrafol: Get $10 off at nutrafol.com when you use promo code GGE. AG1: Get a free 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D + 5 free travel packs with your first purchase at athleticgreens.com/gge. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Understand that this is a thinking trap and you want to stop and ask yourself, okay, if I was to start today right now, would I choose this person again, knowing that I cannot recoup the investments of the past? And if it's a no, then there's a big sign for you. Coming to you from my couch. Every week, it's like, where they're going to be. Back to our roots. Yeah, where are they going to be? This couch is so nice. It's, let's, it's a sinkhole. It will turn into a sinkhole, but it's really nice right now. It's exactly what I wanted. It's not the highest of high quality, but for the shape and the size and yes, the sinkhole. But this couch has one to two good ears in it. And I'm fine with that. And I knew what I was getting into. Well, we won't

record here very long because as we speak today, the girls got to eat couch from New York is on a truck on the way to LA. Finally, all of our original stuff is coming out here and we're going to do our own studio. Very happy about it. At Raina's house. which if you want a little BTS on the podcast, basically when we started this in 2018, I lived in the East Village, Raina lived in Park Slope, a huge journey, long-distance relationship. 45 minutes, yeah. And I learned how to start a podcast, edit the podcast, and was like, oh, this shit's going to be a lot of my time.

So I basically was like, I will edit this podcast. I will dedicate my life to it if you come to me. And that was the deal we struck up. And ever since then, we had studios, we had this and we that. but we always did it like on my turf because I was the one that was like putting all the hours into it and whatnot. And that was like our agreement. And now we will be on Raina's turf, but I don't edit it as much anymore. It's so funny. So I was walking with Kate over to her house from your house the other night. And she was like, you want to tell why? Yeah, because you ordered dinner for all of us.

You ordered sushi and you sent it to her house. And in what world, like, do you accidentally send food to the wrong house and you can be back in six minutes with that? the food. Yes. Her husband opened the door and just handed us the bag. We were timing you. We were, well, also we stopped to talk to Jay. So we had two minutes of talking to Jay and mango.

And also had to meet the new dog. But anyways, she was like, are you so excited to start recording at your house? And I was like, no, I feel all this guilt about it. Because I was like, I do drive like 45 minutes to record each way. But like Ashley spends that much time editing the podcast. I know. It's always been this really. I don't know.

Listen, I could have gotten a house that we could have built a studio out. I did it. I made this choice. Ashley is taking the blame. That is what I'm hearing. And I want to spend more time on the West Side. And I will come and spend the day and we'll go scope guys at the supermarket. And I'm ready to commit to like my work beat on the West Side. I'm a commuter. Okay, so I left your house the other day and you're like, I couldn't even figure out my way to the west side. If I had to and I was like, oh, that's so sad. I wanted to like know where I live better. So now you will.

And actually, I am doing like, when I go to Whole Foods in Venice, I do like a full face of makeup. It is like the hottest triple you're ever going to see in your life. The Venice Whole Foods. That's where you go to go for dick. Not heroin? A little too bougie. It's a little bougie. Whole Foods, okay.

Is there a traitor Joe's out there? Or they have levels to this shit. I don't like Territator Joe. It's not for me. I mean, everybody out here is fucking hot. but like take it back. I don't like it. It's not for me.

I don't care about it. So I started my morning off really well. The trailer for the rest of Vanderpumpurals season dropped. And I have like full body chills. Like you know the day. I told you, Ashley's like been in the culture, I will say. I made a little joke. I was really proud of it.

I told a joke in Sacramento about the Scandaval. Do you want to do your joke? It wasn't that deep. It was just like some girl. Wait, what? I was going so hard, by the way, just like explained to her and she was like, you mean Rachel? Yeah, Rachel.

I was so proud of it. It was a Rachel job. I forget how it went. Also, can I just say one thing? Yeah. And then we'll get back into it. I have a huge missed opportunity and am beating myself up all morning at not calling Sacramento, Snackrameno.

Motherfucker. Snack City Tour, Sacramento. Snackrammo. Have not said snackramento, have not said sack snacks. I'm really sorry and I would apologize to the whole audience, especially Snack, Ramenno. You're better than this. I'm better than this. You've been moving.

I've been stressed. You have been stressed. I've been doing a lot of dumb shit, leaving car doors unlocked, keys in the front door. I'm like, are you my axe? I feel like it's like early onset dementia. Like I'm like, it feels like I'm doing weird stuff. It's not safe. That's not safe.

Well, it's sort of a lot to deal with moving. I'm still in the thing of it. You already watched this show. The trailer just dropped. So basically they've like put the cameras back up. They're filming basically the fallout of dog shit Tom Sandoval. But I just wanted to say I got like an update on Ariana, which like really made me smile. Our friend Hank, Salt Hank, if you follow him on TikTok, great follow.

He does all these sandwich videos. And he was on like this comedy panel with her this weekend. And he said that she was amazing and perfect and beautiful and she did a wonderful job. So I just, I love to see that she's just out in the world thriving. I wanted to just give some behind the scenes. Good for her. Team Mariana, I guess. Right, everybody is.

All of America. Team Rachel. Okay. I just want to clarify, if you guys are listening, which most of you still do, you don't know what we're talking about. But if you're watching, yes, we have these teeny tiny little lapel mics. We are going to have our old mics back. Everything's going to be back to the old studio that you know and love.

Different wallpaper. We're figuring our vibe out. But this is like just interim weird shit. I thought you many people don't know about the scandal. I was like, in the New York Times. Everybody knows about it. Scandival. Scandival, Snackramano. I have a Snackermano update. What do you want to do first? Cindy's birthday. Okay. It's today. My mom, Cindy Heseltine's birthdays today, the 27th, the day the episode comes out. She has asked for one thing and one thing only.

A shout out on this podcast. Close. A helix mattress topper. Because my dad bought one for his bed. And I'm like, did he use our code? Yeah, he bought one for his bed. He bought one for himself. and he didn't ask her if you wanted one. And I was like, they'll probably send me one. He was like, he got antsy. He had to have one. Now, I have to have one. They're good. They're so good. I have them too. And I got more on the way. Well, happy birthday to my other mother. Yeah. I did not start my day on such a good note. No. I just have to say, we are rebranding the Snack City tour and it's going to be the flat tire tour. And I cannot believe as we're about to go to Snack, Romeno on Saturday. Tesscom's over here. I was going to drive us to the airport. We were just going to park there for the night and pulled out of my driveway and like heard glass under my wheels.

And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. And I'm like, tires can sustain some glass. Like, you know, they're not meant to just bust, but it was like a huge shard of glass. We get a few blocks out of the neighborhood. Like, we're out of the neighborhood. We're on our way to the airport. And the car is just like shaking clearly, like fucked up. So we had to come back.

Then, like, try to clean the glass up, tested to drive us. We had to just put my broken down-ass rental car in the driveway. We're late to the airport. The parking we got there, we thought we had valeted, but we self-parked. We couldn't find a parking spot. We barely made it. We were barely able to check the bag because we have to check a bag because all the lubs and stuff and everything that we give away at the shows.

It was such a journey. And I was like, I cannot believe like two tours in a row, flat tire. Like what is going on? And Kate got a flat tire recently and like someone else. Like, what is going on in the world? Oh, and I couldn't get out of my driveway because I had no electricity. And so I was just trapped. Our problems.

So anyway, this morning I had to get the car towed. It was crazy. But for a minute, I was like, is this tow truck driver going to be hot? And we had a moment where we kind of got in a little bit of a fight on the phone. He started it. So we were arguing. Apologies to me. We were arguing on the phone.

And then we made up. And like now, like we're boys. Like we're cool. but like I wasn't attracted to him, but I was like, this is exactly what happened. Yeah, this is exactly when I fucked the driver in Greece. We got a little fight on the phone. We made up. We had makeup sex.

And I was like, if tradition prevails, I'm about to fuck this tow truck driver. I was going to be really disappointed at her if she didn't fuck this guy. And he showed up and I was like, absolutely not. I was really disappointed because I thought that like everybody was hot here, not that guy. You got the one non-hot person. I don't know if there's tow truck drivers are probably not going to be hot. I don't know that there's like actor slash tow truck driver. Because you have to have a CDL.

Like I don't think that they, you know, like you have to special qualifications. You need skills. Not that Uber driving isn't a skill and task rabbiting isn't a skill. We've got to go to school for this. Yeah. Like I don't think that it's like actor model slash tow truck driver. But he was kind of a dick. Like he was kind of like, why did you rent cars from this company?

I was like, could you not mansplain to me while I ride with you? I had to ride with him to the entire place. I didn't think you know that was a thing either. I don't need to, like, go with them to do stuff. You don't have to, but, like, how else are you going to get there? I don't know. I'm of the ilk of, like, just take the car and let me know what happens. An assistant to come pick me up at the time.

That was really funny when you sent our assistant to pick you up at the time. Well, she was out. She was out picking up these mics. I'm like, it's your mom. Yeah, mom, can you pick me up? I'm scared. So anyway, the flat tire tour, and we're about to announce new dates in a couple weeks for the whole fall. We have a crazy schedule.

Okay, Azul. And anyway, so. Well, we have great shows coming up, and we do still have some tickets. available. So Minneapolis and Milwaukee, I think, are completely sold out. Milwaukee has a few. Milwaukee went so quick. We had to upgrade to the larger theater. And there still should be a few left. We're so excited first time there. Minneapolis, two shows, definitely sold out. And then right after that, New Haven, still some tickets available. New Haven. We would love to see you guys. If you want to trek from New York, of course, or wherever you want to come from, of course, we're going to end the year

in New York. But we are excited to be there. And then we have Chicago, Philly, D.C., Boston, and then all of Ohio. I'm just going to announce special guest Chicago show because we're all booked and I can say this, Matt Hustleton. I was like, she booked entertainment for that. And we're going to have entertainment and Stephanie Heseltine. So Matt and Steph will be there with another couple that's just as big as them. Physically as big.

Physically. But not my brother and his wife. Big. Not world famous. They're not world famous. But like one of his linemen friends from Delaware with a six foot plus tall wife, I was like, the four you are going to look. insane. Like, you won't be able to miss them in Chicago. I'll be going to find them. The light will hit them. I'm so excited. And my brother and sister-in-law, they've lived in Chicago for a long time. They will not be there because they moved somewhere where we will be announcing a show. Yeah. I feel really excited about it. Okay. So, yeah, a couple weeks. If you know, you know, you know. But the shows are wild, they're so fun. I'm happy to say every single time we do a show. There are more people that bring their moms or significant other friends that have never heard of the podcast. It is just a wild night out. If you've never heard the podcast, it doesn't matter. You'll enjoy this show. It's so fun. Yes. And a totally different show.

Just have to reiterate it. If you came and saw us at the Chicago Theater, for example, before, totally different show, different stuff. The stuff that we're doing on this tour is wild, insane. Every show, I'm shocked. Every show, I am just keeled over dying. Right now, that last show and you go, why am I on the floor? Or no, why am I on the ground? Well, this one girl knocked me to the ground and then grabbed my belt and it was just riding me from behind.

It was crazy. I remember the quote, why am I down here? And I heard it and I like fell to the ground laughing, so why am I down here? And we have toys to give away. We give a special discount at every show for vibes only. Like they've just been so lit. And of course, the opening entertainers, we had these incredible dancers in Sacramento. And I'm so excited.

So get tickets, girls got eat.com. Yeah. So we'll see you soon. I do have an update for you from Sacramento. You've never seen this email from Sacramento. I'm sorry. Thank you for making me better. So basically what happened at the show is we do some crowdwork.

We're talking to some people. We see this light is like hitting the sky. He's really cute. We start talking to these people. We're like, how'd you guys meet? It turns out of your first date. They met on Hinge. And we were like, okay, how did she let you know she had tickets?

And he's like, no, I had tickets. So he brought her to the show, which, I mean, we love to see it. It's just not the norm. Yeah. It's just like a straight man is just like on a first date with our tickets. So anyways, this girl writes, I'm going to change his name to, we'll call him John. This girl, she did say we could read the email. She said T about Hinge Date John from Sacramento, I'm his ex.

Oh. So she said, I went to your Sacramento show last night at a great time. Well, as great a times you can have when your ex of two plus years is there on a date being called out repeatedly. That's right. My ex is John. He was the guy on a hinged date and your go-to call throughout the show. Here's the background. He and I went to the same gym.

We met in 2019. We went out a few dates pre-pandemic. in 2020 bonded over both listening to your show, among other shared interests. We were in a relationship throughout the pandemic for my birthday in 2020. He bought his tickets to your 2021 San Francisco show, and then we ended up coming together in 2022. That show was a blast well. Anyways, he broke up with me last year while we were in the process of moving in together. And last night at your show was the first time I had seen him since the breakup. I am shook living together. They're moving in together. It was a shock for sure. However, I did find immense

joy and knowing that this is his personal hell being repeatedly called out by the two of you while on a date and knowing that I was there. And then she wrote parentheses. He knew I was there because we were mutual friends. Anyways, I thought you ladies would enjoy the tea. Read this on the podcast or don't. Doesn't matter. Thanks for the exposure therapy.

Love you and the show. Exposure therapy. That's so funny. What do I say? That one bit. Immersion therapy. That is so funny to me that like what are the odds? that your ex would be there. And I guess they bonded over the show, but he's there on a date,

and he just gets roasted the whole time. Well, I did offer to suck his dick. So, roast it. I don't know. I mean, one of our close sky friends came to a show when he's there with his wife, and we called him out the whole show. He's also a big dude, so you could see him. He was like, you know, someone we spoke to throughout the show. And then his ex message me. And she was like, I was at the show. I was like, girl, don't message me. Do you remember? I don't know you like that, girl. No, it was fine.

But I was just like told him, I was like, she was at the show. He was like, what? It's crazy. This is like, this is stuff that happens to the show that like blows our minds. Like the stuff that goes on in that room were like, what the fuck? Like, remember when your brother's tenant was there? In the front room. In Chicago last year.

Chicago last time we were there was like the most epic show. And everybody in Miami showed their titties. Lots of tities. 11 people stood up to show their tities in Miami. me. You never know. You never know. But anyways, I was excited to tell you that story. Isn't that so funny? Yes. I love that. Okay. What are you doing?

Okay. I was looking at. If you guys looked over at her computer. Rina. Listen, it was an audience divided last week after I talked about full swing on Netflix, which is a golf documentary. And Ashley was so bored by it. No. It wasn't even that. It was that I didn't expect you to be hyping it like that. And then once I started to roast it, like the sound guy was laughing.

I'm just like, I'm going to keep going. Honestly, it's like it's the most messages I've got about anything in a while, people being like, I'm definitely more Ashley's friend or I'm definitely more Raina's friend. Like, I like this documentary. Somebody emailed to be like, I thought I was more Raina's friend. I'm not anymore. Yeah, someone. And then someone said when Ashley said, sorry, I'm blacking out.

She was like, I almost wrecked my car. I was laughing so hard. Right. I was telling you about that doc. He said I'm blacking out. So in my defense, you got to look at this guy. Yeah, Rayman's golf guy. He's so hot.

Thank you. The guy is sexy. You guys, look up Brooks Copcas. K-O-E-P-K-A. I mean, he is a sexy man. He was the first thing I saw in the trailer, and I was like, I'm watching this documentary. He's giving NFL quarterback.

He looks like an NFL quarterback. He's so hot. That's why he tuned in. He might be a bad person. I don't know anything about him. He probably is. Okay. No, I don't want to say.

make that claim. I've known nothing about him. I'm just making jokes. Golf is such a blind spot. Did you know that my whole life, we grew up on a golf course? Like in Samarna, Delaware, there was like a Garrison's Lake golf club. And our house sat on like one of the holes, truly. The golf balls would be in our backyard, lived on a golf course. My dad never golf a day in his life. Like, Lee Heseltine cannot be bothered. And I feel like that's my vibe, too. Like, he's so impatient. Like, that's not his type of sport. Like, my dad race his cars, flies, planes. Like, he skis fast. Like, he's not about that life. And so he's so anti-golf.

Like, so many people's dad's golf. And he's so anti-golf, not part of the culture. And we grew up our whole lives on a golf course. Hearing you describe this, I feel like I would like golf. Well, so Hannah and I got talking about this. And then I did see her and Paige talk about this on Giggly Squad. They post a clip. But Hannah and I were talking about this at lunch of, like, what a dream if your man

golfs every Saturday the whole day. Oh, yeah. Paige was talking about this. I saw this. Yeah. Like, why are you complaining? You get to have the whole day. Like every wife I know, like all my friends who are married, are down for that.

Like those are the girlfriends that I have that they're like, I would love my man to leave the whole day. I get to do whatever the fuck I want. Go to brunch. Get day drunk. Watch TV all day. Be piece of shit if I want to. Like leave for eight hours. My dream is to be left alone in my house so I can look as ugly as possible all day long.

I'd like you to be around in the evening. Take me out on a nice date. Let's get drunk and fuck. In the middle of the day, I want to eat things that are disgusting. I want to like a pig. I would love for you to not be there. I mean, I remember one of my exes, like, really early on, I realized he was a golf guy. And I was like, love it.

Bye. And then I'd be texting him, are you wearing sunscreen? He would be like, you are crazy, bitch. I think we've been dating for, like, a couple weeks. And I was like, are you wearing sunscreen? Like, he still was like, I'm going to date you. It's also one of the only sports. It might be the only one I can think of where I could get involved in the fashion.

I can help you pick out your outfits for your little activity. The khakis? I love golf fashion. You do? There's plaid. There's so many colors. Who is she? I love golf fashion, Raina Greenberg.

What? I'm into tennis fashion. I love a tennis set. But like I'm not dressing my man up for it. Okay, can I just like plug my friend's company now? Because on your show? He's a golf company. And I just am like, while we're here going to go so hard on golf, my friend Aaron

tuning. He's a good friend of mine from Atlanta. He lived here for a minute. And their brand is called St. Andre Golf. So S-T-A-N-D-R-E golf on Instagram, they're like blowing up. And they're doing merch or they have all these big plans, but basically it's all these hilarious videos, like parody videos. Like if you're in golf, you're going to be obsessed with just the videos that they're doing. And he's so funny at like sketches and writing and shooting everything. So just want to give him a plug while we're talking about golf. They're all fios is goofing and golfing. That's what we're doing. It's so adorable.

So feel good. Have you ever dated like a heavy golf guy? Nobody I date has enough money to learn how to charge it. I like a man of the people, you know? Well, also it's funny. You lived in New York your whole adult life. Like the only guy I ever knew who golfed in New York was Francis, which that tracks. Like, I mean, Atlanta, a different vibe.

And, like, I went to school in the South. Like, everyone golfs. But then, like, New York, Francis was the first friend I had that was like, I'm going to golf today. I'm like, where. Bitch, where? You know he'll find it. Oh, for sure. But Francis will find out where to golf.

Where are we golf in? My friend Gino is the only guy that I know. And it also tries to you. It's like finance. He's like entertain people. That's a good point. I don't know one of one of the guy in New York that golfs besides Francis. Also, I love a mini golf date.

That's one of my favorite dates. Like activity dates. I love a mini golf date. Don't ever fucking take me to mini golf. Shall we golf in Rojoba? Great date spot. See, I think I'm really bad at it and I don't like to do anything I'm bad at. It's not.

You just dig around. Like, it's funny. But I'll never get it in the hole and I'll just be upset. But then you get to make jokes like that the whole time. Like, you can just be like, oh, you do it for the jokes. You're going to get it in the hole, babe. You're going to get it in the hole. I don't want it.

And then you can be like, if you get a hole in one, you can eat my pussy. Like, you can just, I feel like I'll retire all the jokes by hole two. And then I have to do the other what. Like, how many are there? I have no jokes left for three through 12. Well, it's Minnie, so not 18. I have no idea. I hit 12.

I said 12. Mini like these mics. Okay, so. What's the serious thing you want to talk about? No. So while we're talking about dates, I went on a date. Just going to keep detail minimal. Met this guy at a comedy show.

Afterwards, we start talking whatever. We ended up like going out on a date. And it was interesting because really nice person. I was kind of trying to figure out if I was attracted to him. I know that can build over time. But I just, you know, without giving too much way, I don't really think that this is like a match for me. Like I think I know what I'm looking for, but I did feel on the state an overall sense of like a warm person, a kind person, someone that was really curious about me in my life. And I'm also curious too. I mean, I really wanted to know a lot about him. But I feel like even the questions he was asking me were stuff that I just haven't been asked in a while on like a date in a romantic sense. Like when someone, you feel like someone really wants to know you, like really wants to get to know about your family and your upbringing and the questions that aren't so basic. And I just think also that's, that's

that's how you and I are and dates the things that we ask and want to know about people. So to have that mirrored, it was just really nice. And we hung out for a few hours. And listen, I just am trying to keep this high level in case this person listens. Like, I'm sure people are like, what do you mean? Why wouldn't you like him? Like, just don't worry about it. Just trust me.

But that felt so nice. And like, I felt an emotional reaction afterwards. Like, I felt when we parted ways, like, I had this feeling of almost like, I don't think I'm going to see this person again. And like, I felt like I wanted to cry or something. And I kind of did call you and was like emotional. about it and was trying to pinpoint why. And I do feel like it's because I haven't really felt quite that in a minute where it was just like someone really wants to know you and it feels really

nice and you feel really safe and comfortable. And maybe this is someone that's just like a friend or whatever. But, you know, when you do want to be in a relationship and it's been a minute and you have that kind of thing, it can really trigger something. And it really reminded me of what you said last week where you kind of glossed over this, but you said you came into my hotel room and you burst into tears. Then, of course, I burst into tears. Like, we're both crying. I'm like, I can't believe we're crying of this fucking guy. But here we are. And it's just like, you felt this thing that this is not the person, but like this thing that's happening is what you want in a person. And it's almost like, I don't know. I wonder if people are just like relating to this because

I feel like we both had these parallel experiences. And listen, I went on a first date. You have like a full blown history with this guy. I'm not trying to say that they're equal. But same almost feeling of, I just want this, you know, and I want to find it in the right person that's right for me. And this person isn't it? So then you're almost like that kind of makes you sad too. Like, it's just a lot of emotions. And it was just kind of interesting to me that we had these similar responses. It reminds you that you are like not numb to it if you've been single for a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've been on your own for a long time that like people that have just like, you haven't done this in a while. Like you can get back into it. And it's nice to know that like

it kind of cracks you open a little bit. And yeah. For me, I think I was. crying because I miss the familiarity of a person. And I don't think I articulated that really well last week. I miss not having to explain something to somebody. He really deeply knows me. He knows our show. He knows about you. My family. I don't have to like do all this getting to know you stuff. I really deeply missed the familiarity of somebody who just knows me and it's easy. And I don't have to explain things. I don't have to catch him up on my life. He just knows my life for like four years. And that's what I really missed. And that's, I think, what I was crying about. And I think for you, It was, you know, just being in a romantic setting with somebody that you actually wanted to tell this stuff to.

Right. Like, really digging in and not just asking these service level questions. Like, people ask us about our job all the time. That's a good call. Because I go on dates all the time. Like, this wasn't like, oh, my God, it felt so good to be out with a man. Like, whatever. I went on another date the week before.

Like, whatever. But it was that, like, it doesn't feel like an interview. It feels like we're sharing things about our lives. And it's not a, like, heavy lift. Like, I'm enjoying it. You know? Yes, the heavy lift part. And I think that that is what we're all struggling.

for and looking for, and it's just nice to know that you're not like numb to it. Yeah, I think it's just all those things just remind you of what you want, remind you that they exist and are positive at the end. You know, like every time you're like, there are still people that like I can connect with in this way in the world and hopefully you can find most of what you're looking for all in one person. But it was just an interesting experience. I was like, why do I feel like this?

I don't think I like this guy like that. But maybe we'll see. You know, I don't know for sure. But it was just... I think your last couple of dates have just been like kind of a hard-no. And maybe you didn't enjoy them as much as this person. Even this person is not right for you. It's like, it's just a different feeling.

Yeah. Like that's almost it too. You're like, I keep going on dates where, yeah, hard-no. Nice person, but not romantically for me. And so even to have someone that you're like, oh, right, okay, all is not all lost. It's not all bad. So, yeah, that's probably a part of it, too. Yeah.

I'm glad you talked about it. I don't think we were talking about this today. Yeah. So, and, you know, there's other stuff, too, that we save for the live shows. Yeah, we're going to talk shit about this stuff up the live show. We just sometimes share more details that we don't share because people can listen and we want to be respectful. Yeah, we want to be respectful of people. Yeah, crazy shit happens at the last shows. You should come to them. I have a whole catfish story I told it the live shows, and I'll talk about it next week.

We're going to say it for the next week. Yeah, we have a good catfish story for next week. It wasn't me. It was my mom. Give it away. No, I love this story. It happened like, what, 20 minutes before the show as we're walking on stage. I love this story. We'll tell it next week. We'll tell next week.

We have some great guests coming up. But we have a really amazing guest today. We're so happy to have her back. Her insights are just like second to none. We just love her so much. Yes, Amy Chan is coming soon. It's never not the best interview. I can listen to her talk.

Our two best interviews, Amy Chan, Amy Chan. So Amy Chan is my favorite voice. Only second to Collette. Colette, who she introduced her. Yes. Yeah. Colette Pervette, which was our dominatrix episode. I had to suck a dick immediately after that episode with you guys.

Not any dick. I sucked my boyfriend's dick, but honestly, I would suck any dick after that episode. When you said that, you said that on their episode with Trevor and Michael, they were all busted all laughing. You're like, the warnings I've ever been where I had to just like leave, go suck a dick. That's just so funny. I just got in text about the movie never ends. Having you started for me? It never really ends.

Yeah. My car is ready. I'm going to go pick it up. We've got a lot going on. So yeah, guys, we are just, we're really excited. We're going to toss it to Amy. That is a Zoom interview. Yes. Okay, guys, you are in for such a treat today. We are welcoming back one of the favorite guests we've ever had on the show.

She is the founder of her new breakup boot camp or a treat that takes a scientific and spiritual approach to heal the heart. She has been featured literally everywhere. Good Morning America, Vogue, Glamour, Fortune, this show. Her best-selling book, Breakup Boot Camp, The Science of Rewriting Your Heart is truly an incredible book on relationships and ending them. We are so thrilled to have her back on our show. Please welcome to the show, Amy Chan. Yay. Hi. We're so glad to have you back. I'm so happy to be here. Okay. Well, do you want to give us a quick life update? Okay. So I moved from New York to Vancouver

during the pandemic with my boyfriend. We were only dating for six months and we survived lockdowns together with our two cats. And yeah, I'm loving it. I'm working on my second. book and life's great. Okay. Well, we have a little spoiler alert, I guess, teaser for the audience that we will be back in Vancouver in the fall. So we're announcing those tour date soon, and hopefully you can come with your boyfriend, maybe leave the cats at home. But I would personally love to meet them also. So we can make some time. Okay. We'll do that. Okay. Amy, I was thinking this morning about the first time we ever talked. I don't know if you know this. I was on a bikini on my roof, re-interviewing you, and you had emailed us some stuff about,

what you do and what you focus on it in your work. And I was like, this sounds so interesting. And I was just walking around naked on a roof talking to you. And I was like, this woman blows me away. And ever since we met you, it's just been really just such a joy. So thanks for coming back. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. So we have so much to cover today. You came so prepared with an outline. And I was like, this is going to be a four-parter. So it's going to be a whole month long of Amy Chan. First of all, let me back up. If people, our audience doesn't know your first episode with us. It was really how to get over a breakup. People have said that it changed their life. And you talked about how to get over it like physically in your body and recover and move on and all those

things. And it was life changing. And so today we have a couple other things in the lines of staying in relationships that aren't super healthy and breaking out of those and knowing when to end it and not stalking your ex and all those types of things. So we're excited to get into it. All right. If you guys want that episode, So it obviously go back. It's on our website. You can search the date. It was the fall of 2019. Yeah, fall into winter of 2019. So let's like talk about why we stay in dead-end relationships. Okay. So dead-end relationships, let's define what that is, right? A dead-end relationship is a relationship that's going nowhere, right? Maybe you want commitment. They don't. Maybe it's a

situation where you don't really know what it is and you're filled with anxiety. And so your mind, you're like, I know I shouldn't be in this. I see the red flags. My friends do. But your body, your emotions are like, yeah, let's just do, you know, one more makeup sex or whatever it is. And you just keep getting into the cycle. And so why does this happen to smart, intelligent, powerful women like ourselves? And it's not because you're crazy. There's a few reasons. You could be crazy. You could be crazy. The dick is crazy. The dick could be crazy. That is a big reason. Okay, sorry, I mean, you tell us. That's okay.

But one of the main reasons is there's something called sunk cost fallacy. And people who are in the stock markets might hear of this. It's more of a term used in economics. It's the idea of putting, you know, good money in a bad deal. And we do this across the board when we buy tickets to a movie. And you know in the first 15 minutes it sucks, but you watch the whole movie because, well, you already spent that money. And we do this in relationships as well. So we get in a relationship or a situation ship and times passed, therapy has passed, you've invested, you've seen small increments of change. And so instead of saying, wow, this relationship is never going to be what I need it to be, you continue to hang on to hope. And instead of looking at present value and future value, you continuously focus on what you've already invested. And so, but you're never going to recoup those.

costs, those investments. And so what you really want to do is if you're in the situation, understand that this is a thinking trap and you want to stop and ask yourself, okay, if I was to start today right now, would I choose this person again, knowing that I cannot recoup the investments of the past? And if it's a no, then there's, you know, a big sign for you. Yeah. I mean, I think we've all been there where we like start down the path with somebody and you're like, but I enjoy their company or the sex is good or I like companionship, which are all those things make sense to me, but you're like, I'll break up with them soon. I know this isn't going to last, but they're there now and it's fine. And to me, it's like every day you do get closer to that

person, that person knows more about you. They're more involved in your friends or your family. And to me, it gets harder every single day that you sink time into this to undo it. Well, I love that you said, ask yourself, would you pick them again? And this just reminds me of an episode we had with a friend and a stylist named Lillian Charles and she says, knowing when to throw something out of your closet is what, would you buy it again? And so I feel like it's almost like the same concept. And I don't know. I don't know how much I relate to this.

I won't finish a book. I'll walk out of a movie. I'll, you know, cancel a trip knowing that like I'm just going to go spend more money, even though I've lost a little bit of money on cancellation cost or whatever. Like people cancel weddings. They lose a bunch of money. But what's the alternative? You are married, you know.

So Rayna and I know some couples. Raina actually has said this theory to me, you know, for years where one couple in particular has been together for a really long time. There's been so much therapy. There's been so much work done. And we're always like, why are they still together? And this feels a lot like this. And what you said spoke to me about the incremental changes because it's not getting worse, right?

It's just like little teeny glimpses of hope. And that's probably what keeps people hanging on too. They're like, it's getting better, like praying for a miracle almost. Yeah, I kind of look at it as if so. Say you are in business and you want a job and you want to make a hundred grand. And so the company comes back and like, we're going to give you $25,000. And they're like, well, you know, there's been a pandemic. There's all these reasons which you can empathize.

And then they come back and like, you know what? You know, we're going to give you 50 grand. And you're like, oh, okay. And you're like, well, it went from 25 to 50. That's almost, that's double. So even though you wanted 100, you go below your standard because it doubled. And so it's this thinking trap that we're tolerating what is less than our standard because we're focusing on the incremental change.

Uh-huh. Yeah. So, like, what do you say to somebody? I'm just curious that says, like, this is. isn't enough for me. I know it's not and this probably isn't going somewhere because of XYZ. We're not aligned in our goals, but I don't know what else is out there and the devil I know is just better than the devil I don't because I do, I want to empathize and I know you do too with people that are just like, it's scary out there. It's hard to leave a decent enough

relationship with somebody who's not abusing you emotionally or physically in any way, but you know it's not going anywhere. It's hard to sort of like make that break because you're like, I don't know what else is out there. So like, what do you say to somebody like that? Because to me it's a a reason to stay in a relationship. Yeah. I mean, I think first is there's dealing with the anxiety of the future. So we just continue staying with whatever we have. And this is even harder when it's good, but it's not great. And so, you know, there is a part of you that has to be okay with knowing that you got to do some work up front, which means the first six months of separation when you have space, it's going to be uncomfortable. And in that discomfort is where you're going to

grow. Your identity is going to shift. You're probably going to invest more in your foundation, your friends, your community. And so it's that fear of that pain. But that pain is a very thing you sometimes need to kind of create that shakeup to redirect your life. And the alternative is this. Okay, you're going to have another year, another five years. You're going to be an exact same situation. So how does that feel? If five years from now, you're complaining about the exact same thing, you've just lost another five years. Are you going to be okay with that? Right. And I mean, a lot of it is just like you're working on yourself too and how much you value yourself, your self-worth, your value, your time. You know, so much of it to me is time. Like that's why I hear people say,

like, if I start a book, I have to finish it. I'm like, if I hate it, I don't have the time. Like my time is valuable. Like, I could be reading a book I do like, you know? So it's just kind of like thinking of the time that's going to be spent. And if you're talking, I mean, books aren't like the best example. But relationships, the time is time you could be finding someone else. Yeah, the opportunity cost. Yes, exactly. You're not getting any younger and any hotter ladies, okay? You are just wasting your hottest years out there. That's the takeaway. That's what I want. One thing you take away from this episode is never going to be this young again. No, but Amy, I want to validate that those relationships that are good enough that are okay where somebody is

nice to you and the sex is fine and you have fun together. Like those are the hardest relationships to leave. We did a great episode called You're Not the One about those people that are just so, so tough to leave because they're never really going to give you enough of a reason to go. They're not going to necessarily cheat on you or be horrible or emotionally abusive. But it's just like, do you want to spend every day having that internal conversation with yourself of, is this enough? And when will it ever be enough? And that shit sucks. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about another theory. You can share it. Okay. So another reason why we get stuck in either dead in relationships or situationships when, you know, someone likes us a little but never enough

is there's this thing called intermittent reinforcement. And it happens to rats. It happens to gamblers. And it happens to lovers. And so I'll just give you some context. There's, they did these experiments on rats and they put rats in a cage. And in this cage, there's a lever. And every time the rat pressed a lever, it got a pellet of food. That's continuous reinforcement. So when someone's predictable, we can relax and know that we're safe. And rely on them. Yeah. Exactly. And then the scientists were like, okay, let's try something. Let's remove the food completely. And the rats are pressing it, realize no food's coming. Then they just get bored of it and they continue on their way. Then the scientists were like, hey, let's try something else. Why don't we sometimes, when the rat presses the lever,

will give food and sometimes not. So it's completely at random. And what they've found, or the rats got completely obsessed, maniacally obsessed with pressing the lever so much that they stopped grooming, they stopped hydrating, they stopped everything, and a lot of them died. They just kept pressing that lever. And so you're like, what? That would never happen to me, but the same thing happens at the slot machines. When you don't know when the reward is going to come, what happens is you get a bigger burst of dopamine.

So you have these very, very high highs. And then you drop these low, low, lows. And it's the unpredictable rewards, the spontaneous, am I going to get it? And I'm not going to get it. That keeps you hooked. It's not because they're so amazing. Situation ships will kill you or send you spiraling into debt is the takeaway here. Like the rats and the gamblers. No, I mean, I love this theory. I've, you know, seen it explained in various ways, but this is like the best I've heard it where it's like that dopamine hit isn't the normal one from the reliable consistent hit. It's the even more because you didn't know if it was coming or not. It's so understandable to be addicted to that. And we've said before on the show,

I think maybe after I had seen this theory of like don't beat yourself up for wanting to stay in this because your brain is wired to like want those hits over and over when you don't know when they're coming. And this is how you get trapped in situationships or inconsistency. in a relationship. Yeah. And what happens after multiple cycles of this is you're just trying to relieve the pain of withdrawal. So at this point, it's not even because I want to be in these loving feelings. It's just like almost a good drug feeling for a fix. The pain is so horrible that you just need that hit, that like on your Instagram, whatever it is, that text, so that you can feel okay again. So you could just feel somewhat normal. Yeah. It's the worst feeling.

and I don't want it, that feeling of like, I can't focus on work. I can't ever be present. I like somebody who's consistent. I don't find it boring. I find it sexy. I think it's really nice. I like that feeling that I can go to work all day long and not think about you because I don't have to wonder. And I think of two girlfriends in particular that have been in really inconsistent relationships and I'll sit with them at like dinner. And every five seconds, it's flip the phone over, flip the phone over. Did he text me? I don't know if he's going to see me after this. It's like panic. And you like feel the energy around people that are in those situations and it's palpable. And I can't put myself in those situations because I can't focus on anything and that's not an option for my life.

And we've all been there and it's just the worst feeling of like, is this person going to show up for me? And honestly, I start to feel like anger when they do show up for me because then it's just like, I need to feel that it's consistent. And when you're doing it, I don't know what made you wake up this morning and decide to text me or call me or show up for me, but I don't want it. Well, right. And like Ray and I have both been at these. But, you know, for me, I think a lot of this is when you find somebody that really sets the bar for you and you're like, okay, I'm not settling for less. Someone that shows up for you, they're consistent. Maybe it's someone you have a long-term relationship. You fall in love with or it could be just someone that really

opens your eyes to how it should be. Or you just grow up or you listen to a podcast or you go to, you know, and get enough education where you stop putting up with it because I wouldn't now. But, you know, all throughout my 20s, this was kind of what it was and it feels so bad and you feel like crazy you can't focus at work. And it's just so understandable why. And for people that are listening that are like unsure this is happening. I mean, it can be as simple as not knowing when you're going to get a text back or not knowing if they're going to make plans with you or even show up for those plans. And then you can even get it from the Instagram like, which is like so bananas. You're like, they're not, you know, making plans for me, but yet they just liked my Instagram.

What does that mean? Oh, my God, they viewed my story. What does that mean? And you feel it in your body like a drug and you're all fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. So. And like I get it. too, right? Like, I think we've all been there. That was definitely my norm. And for me, personally, just growing up, chaos and uncertainty and unavailability was my norm. So my home no stasis was one that felt very comfortable when I didn't know when I was going to get attention or validation, because that's what was modeled for me. And so I think for those people who are in these situations, it can create a lot of shame because you think what's wrong with me. And, you know, human beings were drawn to what's familiar. And so that, you know, what was familiar in childhood, if that was kind of

uncertainty and anxiety, that can translate into, you know, what we feel is chemistry in our romantic partners. Yeah. But even completely stable upbringing, none of that, you fall prey to it because of our brains. We're all human. And we're all trying to be understanding of other people's schedules and what they have going on in their life. And I, you know, I think we all want to be empathetic and say, you know, sometimes it is hard to return a text and sometimes it is hard to make a plan. But when it's a consistent thing, that's when I have to draw the line. And for self-preservation, I have to make you kind of less important to me. And I would do that with friends too. I mean, Ashley and I don't really want to have friends in our lives that don't show up for us and don't text back and don't follow

through plans. And so I will take friends like that and repurpose them. And they're welcome to be included in other plans with other people, but I won't make one-on-one plans with you. And what I do with romantic partners is it's fine if you want to be inconsistent, but I'm just going to date other people. And that's how you just make that person, I think, less important in your life. But it's not try harder, lean in, do more. But I'm wondering, you know, even what this looks like in longer term relationships where, you know, there could be a lot going on, you know, long term relationships take work. And there could be resentment on one side that's translated into behavior like this, of course. But it could be, you know, you sometimes feel supported by your partner and sometimes

don't. I mean, I feel like it can look every way from like fuck boy situation. Shoulder early stages to long-term relationship, and then you have the sunk-cost fallacy with the intermittent reinforcement, and you're just like, what is going on here? So then, how do you know what to end it? Also, I just want to say, I feel like, of course, you know, it's very different dealing with a fuckboy versus a dead-end relationship that you've been in for a year where you're just like, I don't know, it's good enough. You know, a fuck boy can turn around.

Like, I've seen it. It's just, it's not good to wait them out. You know what I mean? To me, these are two different things. Right. Yeah. But I still think the principles are the same in terms of like the way that we're wired and the way that we think about things. I mean, all sunk cost fallacy applies to the stock market too. You know, it's all kind of like the same principle across the board. So this kind of brings us to how to know when to end it. People struggle with this. I mean, we just touched on it briefly a little bit with the sunk cost fallacy, but like, how do you know when someone's being nice to you and you're like,

it's so rough out there, but like, how do we know? I look at, so if it's a committed like partnership that you want, and not everyone wants that and that's okay, but if that's what you want, I look at partnerships standing on four key pillars. And, you know, the first one is there has to be a level of chemistry connection. The second is compatibility. And I don't mean like you both like skiing together, but you have an alignment of values and vision. The third is, timing. If it's the perfect person at the wrong time, it is the wrong person. And the fourth, and I think this is the most important one that a lot of people rationalize and say, oh, it's okay, is mutuality. And that means there's two people who are equally invested in building the

relationship. And I mean, not just intentions, but you have the ability and the capacity. Because a lot of people have intentions. They're like, yeah, I do want to build. But they actually don't have any capacity. Maybe they're building a startup, and that's okay. But not everyone is in a stage of life where they are able to actually create a partnership because it does require work and moving through the storms. And so I think you want to look at that. And if the relationship is missing those pillars, and of course you're not going to know in the first couple dates, but if fundamentally there's a pattern of that chronically missing, you're building a house of very shaky ground. It's eventually going to fall apart. Yeah. So, I mean, you pitched us some like really great

takeaways. So sort of the next step is like evaluate like this thought experiment that you like yeah. So something I do with my clients is when they're really battling, should I say or should I go? I just say let's not think about this person at all. And like as if I was a matchmaker and I asked you like, what are your top values? What you value in a partner? And so they'll create their values. And then I'll be like, what are your non-negotiables? These are hard. red lines. If they do one of them, it's an absolute no. Maybe it's hard drugs. Maybe it's they want poly, whatever it is. It's going to be unique to you. And then they'll write that down. And then we'll look at their current relationship or their ex that they're considering getting back with.

And if they hit any of those non-negotiables, it's a no. It's like why would you, if you were to choose something fresh, choose a new person right now, and you would say no to this person because they hit a non-negotiable and they don't hit those values. Why would you invest in this person? who's already proven that they're not the right shit. Yeah, it's good to know what those are as well. You know, I was actually talking with this matchmaking service that as a partner on the podcast, and they ask you that. So they know.

So they don't even try to set you up with somebody that has these deal breakers, whatever it may be, like you said, like they don't want monogamy or their politics or, you know, whatever it is. So why would you put up with it from anybody? we see this a lot with friends of ours and women in their mid-30s, this sunclass fallacy and things that you want for is what your partner wants, where one person wants kids and the other one isn't sure. And we get a lot of messages about it. I've seen it with a lot of girlfriends where you've been with somebody for quite a long time and you both sort of want kids, but he's on the fence about when that's going to happen or really if that's going to happen. And then it's like, when do I go?

Because leaving a relationship at 35 is scary because you're like, these are my childbearing years. will I find the next person? But if you're with somebody that's giving you a maybe, it's really tough. I don't envy it. Well, in every situation is different. You know, there's worlds in which the male partner comes around and then you have a family and it all works out. But we've seen the opposite more often. And it's so tough because you're like, okay, well, if I'm 35, I've been with this person for whatever, or one, two, three, four, five, 10 years. Like, then I got to start from square one with my fertility, you know, is a factor. Like, it's a hard part of being a woman as well when there actually is a clock.

Yeah. It's super complex. And I just think that with children, we can sometimes look at those examples. Like, oh, but I know, you know, Molly and her guy, Chase. But those are usually not the norm. Yeah, they're exceptions. The usual norm. Yeah.

So let's not, again, bank on hope. Because that's like just likely going to cause a lot of disappointment. So yeah. Yeah. Okay. Amy, what is the dangle? Okay. Amy, it's very, we usually rewrite the outlines for the episodes.

I think you're the first guest that everything is. I was an outline. This interview is a pleasure. It's going in a weird way. Like, I love it. It feels really structured. Amy, let's talk about the outline you said to us. I'm so excited.

Oh, my God, I'm such a nerd. Oh, my God. This is our dream. Yeah. Like, Rayna and I wish, Rayne and I have said outlines to people and they don't follow them. And we're like, why did you not ask us about the stuff that we're good at talking about? Okay, the dangle. We're like, we can't wait to talk about that again.

Okay. So the dangle is this completely non-scientific thing that I made up. Okay. But it happens. So, okay, like, you've read all the books. You're listening to, you know, girls got to eat. like religiously, so you know all the things. And then what happens is I swear to God, this happens, right when you're on the precipice of change, the universe is going to just put a little dangle.

And this is going to be a temptation. It could be an X that just reappears. It could be that like hot person that you match, which is that you know has like red flags all over them. And it's really like the universe testing you to be like, do you really want change really? Or are you going to take the harder path, which is going into the unknown. It might be uncomfortable. You don't know what's going to happen at the end of this path, but you know that this is the right choice for you. Right. Now this is like a choice point you have. There's a fork in the road. You could apply the knowledge and integrate that into wisdom or you could take the dangle and you continue on the path and repeat the cycle over and over and over again. I love the. I love the.

concept and I just I think a lot about the things that make you love yourself, trust yourself, have high self-worth and value. And when you don't fall for those tests, you know, you really do stay true to yourself and your personal goals and mission. Like you just feel so much better about yourself long term. You know, like when you don't take the easy road, you don't grab the dangle, you know, the feeling of growth and like I'm doing the thing and I didn't fall for this thing again and is so rewarding. Yeah. That feeling of like sort of the easy way out of the pain you're feeling, like when you do leave these situationships or a dead end relationship and you get that one, I miss you text or you get like that late night text and you like go have sex with the person.

And like it does feel so good in the moment to just get that dopamine hit that rush if you get that sex. And immediately it feels bad because it's just knocked you right off that path, you know. And I'm so proud of people when they leave a relationship that's shitty that they need. know that's bad for them or even that it isn't shitty, but they know it doesn't have anywhere to go and you get that one, I miss you text. And just like that, you're back in. And that's why I think stuff like these exercises are so important of writing what your non-negotiables are and your red flags and really sticking to it. We always encourage people to write everything down and just have that list handy so that when you do get those type of dangles from the universe, you can read something

on paper that was like, me 10 minutes ago was fine and wrote this list to protect me right now. Yeah. I mean, I can't use like sports and fitness metaphors enough, but the change in your body happens at those points of discomfort when it could be so easy. Like I remember taking this Barry's class so early on. It might have been my very first one. And this trainer, Sarah, was like when you come off of like a sprint and you just want to stop, if you just do like active recovery, you don't want to do it. You're like, I want to turn the treadmill off and walk. But if you keep a jog, which your body is like, I don't want to do this. This is crazy. It hurts. That's when like the change happened. And so I like to relate stuff like that because I'm like being into fitness. But like those little things, it's not pushing past the point that's not healthy or exhaustion or something like that. But it's just that little thing where you would do something easier. But instead you choose to do something a little uncomfortable that like the change happens in your actual body. And I've like never forgotten it. No, I agree.

The only way to get me to do a 45 minute workout like a 45 minute like Peloton class is if I said it for 30 minutes. And at the 30 minutes, I'm like, I can do five more. I'm fine. At the end of that five minutes, I'm like, I can do five more. And then I'm at 45 minutes. So if you just push past that text, suddenly you'll be fine. And are you so proud of yourself for like how much growth and strength you've shown? It really is nice.

It's really nice to like have that type of self-control, but like for me it's self-control. Yeah. And just those moments where it's actual self-control, then eventually it just comes naturally. And you're like, I made it. I'm at the top of the mountain. I'm a bad bitch. Yeah. Yeah, because when that temptation hits, it's like, I don't know that bitch.

She is not rational. She is not making good decisions for herself. She would not have made this decision an hour ago. Like, I don't know what happens, but you do get that rush. And you're like, I want to make bad decisions for myself. So pushing through does feel so good. Okay, we're going to hit the outline again. Amy, tell us about the 20% shit bucket, which is my favorite thing.

Okay, so this is again, completely not scientific. It sounds scientific, though, thanks. I know. Are you sure? Ship bucket? It's not, it doesn't come. Diary pale. So, like, I think there's, like, something that often happens with people.

They start learning about boundaries, and then they become super rigid, and they have these walls, right? And it also happens if we've been burned before. And then suddenly, we have these lists of. expectations that are rooted in perfection and not reality. And I think that part of being healthy in your mindset when it comes to relationships is understanding that in every relationship, 20% of it is going to go into a shit bucket. And these are things that are going to annoy you about them. It's that laugh. It's how they leave their socks on the floor. They're not deal breakers.

It's not like abuse or anything, but there are these irritating things that might even give you the ick. And what happens... Their Zoom voice, but they're on a work call, their work voice. What happens is once the chemicals, the lust chemicals fade, and we know that this happens between eight months to about 18 months, you know, there's a chemical change and we start to settle into the relationship so we don't have these blinders on. We can then start being like, oh, this thing that's so annoying. And you focus on that and then you might fantasize I was like, well, I'll just get someone else because then they won't have that.

And I see this. I see this in people who just keep jumping from a relationship to relationship, but then their next relationship has another shit bucket. And sure, their Zoom voice is amazing, but they're, I don't know, their hair is really oily. And they never like to wash it, whatever it is. It's a different bucket of shit. And so I think if you just realistically know that these things are going to be consistent and every sign that happens, you don't then,

think of like, oh my God, this relationship is over. Then you have a more realistic approach. So when, you know, the storms happen, you don't just think you're going to jump ship. I love this. And I have experienced it. And I think I mentioned this before in the podcast, but a relationship, probably like my first, like most serious relationship, I experienced this. And I kind of freaked out and was like, it's over. I don't like him anymore. I have the ick. The ick was not the term that we used back then. I wish I would have had it then. But like, I got kind of panicky. And my. best friend who was in a long-term relationship and she's now married to the person was like,

Ashley, yeah, just you're going to be annoyed sometimes. Like, it will pass. And I think it's important to remember. And we say there's a lot of men in New York. Of course, there could also be women in Idaho, whatever, but men in New York, we have a lot of experience with them. And they really just want perfection. And they have a mindset of like, well, I don't need to deal with that 20% that I don't like, you know, I can find a 100% 10 out of 10 woman. I can find this woman, but a little hotter, this woman who doesn't do this annoying thing or this woman. Like, they are always striving for that perfection, refusing to put up with the 20%. And then a lot of them end up alone forever, you know. So at some point, it's just being realistic about perfection and humans. Yeah. Yeah. Perfectionism is a

really good defense mechanism. And it is sometimes a way that we actually avoid intimacy. So we become overly picky. And if they don't do this and this and this, right, then we're like, it's a complete no. And I used to do that. And it was just a really convenient way for me to not ever get too close to someone because subconsciously I associated that deep emotional intimacy would be pain. I'm wondering if, like, I think this is just knowing yourself. and if it has to be done in therapy or whatever it may be. But I'm wondering about the people that are like, okay, well, I'm putting everything into the ship bucket. Like, I'm sabotaging basically.

Like, I'm wondering how to know if you're just like trying to find things that bother you so you can end the relationship. And I guess that's a matter of like doing an inventory of what's going on in the rest of the relationship and how this person makes you feel and things like that. Because people do that too. They try to actually just find the things wrong. Usually for me, that's a symptom of. me just sort of being over the relationship. I'm like nitpicking almost. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I tend to swing really far in the other direction. I'm not looking for imperfection. I excuse a lot. And I'm the like, I'll move mountains for this person, kind of person, have been for a really long time.

And that's a big thing that I've had to work on. And I think I have since I started the podcast. But I'm more like, I will make all these excuses. And I don't stop in the beginning of relationship to take this inventory list that you're talking about of like, what are the deal breakers, what are the red flags? What are my non-negotiables? And for me, that's, I think, what I have to work on more and always have to because I will meet somebody and be like, well, this is fine. And then you're a month in, it's like not so fun anymore. Right. Yeah. And that's why when you said encouraging people to write it down, it's so good because when we're in the emotions of it and the chemicals are there and it's juicy, we're really good at rationalizing, right? Because then there's confirmation

bias, which is another mind trick that we want to believe what we want to believe. And so we'll find evidence to prove that that's true. Yeah. I think familiarity is like we will like that feeling and so you'll let something sort of marinate a little longer past its expiration date. But then Raina, I feel like because you're like that, when these things do start to really bother you, it is a pretty strong indication that the relationship could be on the way out. Yeah, definitely. I do start to like nitpick about this chip bucket. That's just waiting around in the shipwagon. It becomes like an 80% shit bucket.

Yeah, like that's a sign. But that's the thing. Like, I mean, if you really want to get granular with it, like, write the things down and see if it feels like it's 20%, or is it 80 or is it 50? We were talking to some girlfriends about this on the beach one day, and we were saying, you know, what percentage of the time do you feel like this relationship is great? Someone said, are you ever 100% sure? And do you need to be 100% sure and how much of the time do you need to be 100% sure?

But we discussed it kind of at length, and the friend that was questioning this, they ended up breaking up shortly thereafter. and I was kind of digging in a little bit more because she was like, I don't know if you're ever 100% sure. And I was like, do you think at one point you should be? You should be like, this is the person I want to be with. I'm committed. I am 100% sure. If you're getting married, you should be 100% sure.

You should be like, nothing is 100% forever. But in the moment of commitment, especially if it's your wedding day or you just want to be with somebody, you should be 100% like, I want to be with this person. I want to be committed. And she was like, well, I just don't know if you're ever 100% sure. And I was like, do you think you'd be 100% sure if your partner was 100% sure? And she was like, let me sit on that for a minute. and they broke up because of him.

So it's like she was almost shifting her mindset because she felt like maybe he had one foot out the door a little bit. Yeah. Like self-preservation maybe. Yes. Like she was 100% sure maybe 75% of the time. And I don't know like how much we're striving for that. I mean, the people I've really loved, I've probably been closer to that.

I've been 100% sure of this 80% of the time. And that's okay because that 20% of the time is just like you used the chili oil and I'm fucking annoyed that you don't ever refill anything. And I'm, I'm comfortable there, I think. Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, my whole point is like, I think that realistically, you can't say with confidence, we're going to be together till we die, like the notebook. You know, like, I think you should be able to be like, I hope so, but people change and a lot of relationships end. And so, but in this moment, I'm certain about this person. I totally am on that. Like, you don't know. Like, in 10 years, maybe there's a fucking zombie apocalypse. And,

like, they try to eat all the food. And you're like, what the fuck happened? Like, you don't know. But, like, I know now, like, I know with my partner right now, I'm sure. Some days when he's annoying me, I'm like, oh, fuck. But, you know, I'm not like, am I 100%? 80%. I'm just like, I'm in this. I'm invested. Yeah. I'm in. Yeah. And, you know, part of that is not basing the decisions because we've had great vacations together and it's like super fun. It's because I've seen how we've weathered the storms. And I don't think that there's anyone else. I would want to go through the hard stuff in life with but him. I think that that's the perfect barometer because I can be with a lot of people during the good times. There's a lot of people that would be fine for me

when I don't need your help. Nothing bad is happening in my life or your life that we can just be on vacation, have sex, laugh, have fun. There's tons of people that will fit the bill for me. Yeah, it's like The Bachelor. It's like, that's why it's so fake. It's like, yeah, of course, everything's great when you guys are like on a produced, all expense paid vacation. You don't know them. Like, you know they're representative or one side of them. And I think that's what happens. I really encourage people when they're dating and they're like, well, when should I have a talk to like try to get them to commit? No, like, because you don't know after eight dates. Do you want to choose them? You're not just one.

waiting to be chosen because you don't know someone. There's an evaluation stage that needs to happen for you to truly get to know someone and you don't know them until you see them through conflict, through stress, through a big fight. Like, you know, when you're sick, all those things is data collection. And if you're just so quick to try to like lock it down, you know, that's coming from a place of scarcity. For sure. Yes. Well, let's like briefly talk about a few of your points about how to break up well. And we've covered some of this before in the podcast, but we just wanted to hear some of your hot takes, and then we'll wrap up with stalking your ex post breakup. So, you know, if you're the one doing the breaking up, think of the conversation as your

conversation is to end the relationship, not to give them a laundry list of all the reasons why they suck. That's not the conversation for it. You may want to give a grace period depending on how long you've been together. You know, if you've been married, if you've been together for years, it might not be one conversation, one and done. And how long that grace period is, you can decide, is it one week, is it two weeks and more follow questions when they've had more time to process? You can allow that. And then after a period of time, you cut it. Don't try to be their friend. That's very selfish. You're not being kind because you want the emotional connection without any of the commitment. And I think for the other person, if you've been broken up with,

you really do want to cut off contact as soon as you possibly can. And thinking that they will give you closure if they provide more explanations, you're just putting yourself in through more suffering because they actually cannot give you closure because what you want is relief from the pain of separation. So I would say three months of no contact. And do you want to talk about what happens in the brain? Yeah. I just want to validate.

I like what you said about, you know, You don't have to go through the laundry list. I think the goal is that you want to end the relationship, right? And you say to yourself, where do I want to be at the end of this conversation? I want this relationship to be over. I don't need to sling shit at somebody and tell them every single thing that they did wrong. Because really, what does that accomplish at the end of the day? Yeah.

And I love about the friends that's selfish. And you're saying that coming from the person that's breaking up. But remember that when you're being broken up with two. It's like, I hope we can still be friends. It's like, fuck you. Like, you still want my companionship. I mean, I can also see this could be a guy breaking up with us, a girl, like, whoever that's like, yeah, I'm a dope friend.

You know, of course you want me still in your life. Of course, you want to have the laughs and all this stuff without the commitment. You want to fuck other people, like, whatever their reason is. And you don't want the thing that I want, but you still would like to have me around. Yeah. Of course you do. Yeah. To my insights.

Like, you have severed your ability to have all these things from me. Well, and again, we said this before. There are plenty of people who are friends with their exes, and you can do that after a certain amount of time. Depends on what the relationship look like. It just, everything is different. But if someone wants to be your friend, don't feel like you have to do that if you don't want to because it's a selfish ask.

It makes me feel crazy when I see like my girlfriends go through this and they've like been broken up with and somebody's like checking in on them and wants to talk to them. And I feel like this person, as kind as their intentions were, whatever. They have forfeited their right to know about what you're up to. to and to hear your jokes. And for me, at least, listen, one size fits one, it's healthier for me to cut ties. And this comes down to like, again, every situation is different.

But I've had mail for everybody from my brother to my guy friends be like, should I send a happy birthday text to my ex? And I need all the information. It's usually going to be a no. And I've had to be like, no. Like, she's had such a hard time getting over you for what I know. Like this will just, hey, ruin her fucking birthday. You know, like it'll be the dopamine.

hit for a minute. But then the aftermath, and they're like, yeah, say less. I didn't know. I was just trying to be a good guy. You know, like, sometimes it's that like, I do still care about this person. Should I send them something that lets me know I'm thinking about them on their special day? And I'm like, do not. Do not ruin my special day. I feel so mad. I don't want to hear your congratulations. Happy birthday. How's your holiday? Shut the fuck up. I don't want it. Yeah. I'd be like. look, after a breakup, you have to look at it like you have a big open wound. And so what you're going to do in the beginning stage is your focus is to nurse that wound. And that might look very different,

six months a year. But in the beginning stages, like, yeah, like protect your energy. And like you said, it might feel good because you want, you miss them, right? That was the person you went to talk to when you were stressed out and whatnot. And you're going to want that. But you again, have to think about what's going to be healthy for you, not to just kind of soothe that itch right now. Yep. So you wrote something on your outline that you sent us. It was really interesting to me and you wrote don't break up in the lowest low of a relationship. And I'm just curious on your insights of it because like, we're usually breaking up at the lowest low.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, when you are in a midst of a fight and you hate that person, you have to think about what's happening your body. You're flooded with adrenaline and cortisol. And adrenaline's job is to make you take action and action right away. And so you're not thinking with your prefrontal cortex, the one that's strategic and logical. So the decision you make in that moment might look very different in 48 hours when you've popped down. And maybe it'll be the same, but at least you have some time to know that you're not just rapidly doing something in this fight or flight response. For sure. I mean, and I like that you clarified like you're in a fight,

your adrenaline, cortisol, all those things. Not just necessarily that, like, the relationship's going bad. Because, yeah, I mean, we've all been there, like, throwing someone stuff on the street. Maybe that's just me. Yeah, I totally agree. And it's bad to make, I see what you're saying. It's bad to make decisions at the height of a fight. I like to marinate on wanting to leave somebody to make notes in my phone, really think it through.

But, okay, so you've done the breakup. You've taken the time. You're taking the space. Let's talk about just to kind of, like, wrap this up social media stalking. Don't stock your ex, and there's a reason behind it. So something to understand is, after breakup, right? When you're with someone, you have neural pathways that have been wired together. Every time you, you know, wake up and have coffee together or have sex, it keeps strengthening those

neural pathways. So after a breakup, even if logically you know it's over, your body doesn't. And it's craving like, where's that dopamine? Where's that oxytose and give me those feel good chemicals? And so when you're like, oh, you know, I just want to check my ex-s socials or the new person they're dating, that's your brain craving dopamine. And so instead, recognize, oh, that's my brain doing that, and find another way to get a healthy dose of dopamine that doesn't require anything to do with your ex. And the magic number to really keep in mind is the intensity of that angst of wanting to reach out or check their socials, there's a peak to that, and that's about 20 minutes. So if you can make it through the 20 minutes, it's going to reach

its chemical peak of intensity and start to subside. So figure out what you can do in those 20 minutes. Okay. And are you a big proponent of just blocking, doing whatever you have to do? I'm a big proponent of setting yourself up for success. And I like blocking because you're not wondering, are they texting me? You're not tempting. Yeah.

Oh, blocking on their phone number. Yeah, there is that. I like that. I like that we can give people a timeline of do something else for 20 minutes, you know. And that could be calling your friend, whatever. is. I mean, hopefully you have a close circle around you if you're going through a hard breakup to support you and help you through those urges and things like that. Usually if I stop checking for about three to five days, I'm good consistently. So if I go into my Finsta and that person's name is under the

search, it's very easy for my finger to hit it, do a little scroll. I feel like I'm going to be fine, but I'm never really fine afterwards. If I delete them from my Finsta search and it's not always there for me and I resist the urge for three to five days, I genuinely never think about it again. And it's just healthier for me to not keep checking and checking because your brain, at least mine, says I'm still involved in this person's life. They're still, there's still a presence in my life. And if I don't see their face, if I don't see what they're up to, my brain is better able to say this person does not have a presence in my life. Yeah. And so when you look at their IG story or you scroll down memory lane, whether it's looking at old text or even in your memories,

what happens is you're just strengthening those old neural pathways. So you're not allowing the time and space for it to prune away. And that's why you feel so hooked on your ex and it might have been months, but your brain's like, oh, no, we're still, you know, strengthening this, the superhighway that were together. Yeah. A former guest we had on a therapist, Amanda White, she had posted something of like your brain doesn't really know the difference

between a heavy, like, scroll and reminiscing and, actually being in the room with somebody. And that sounds a little crazy to me, but maybe that's true and that, you know, your brain doesn't really know the difference. So like you said, you're strengthening those wires. I think, okay, so I heard the saying, I think Andrew Huberman said it, but I might be misquoting. He basically said that like your brain doesn't really know the difference between like remembering a real memory and fantasizing about an actual memory.

And so you're getting the same sort of like dopamine hit from remembering it whether or not it happens. So that does make sense because your brain can't differentiate between the two. Listen, I also want to validate that when you are missing somebody so much and so much pain, like we've all been here. You just want them to feel, you want to feel their presence. And like, for me, I mean, if I scroll somebody, I'm not saying yes, in a way that I've missed an X, but also in just a like person I'm stalking because I'm just curious what they're up to, like before bed, like all the dream about them too.

So then you wake up and then you're even more fucked up. Like, it all can be such a big mess and all of it is hindering you from getting over the breakup. So don't do it. We know it's hard and give yourself grace and don't be ashamed of any of this stuff too. Okay. Okay. Well, Amy, anything else? I don't want it to end.

I know. We never want to leave you. It flew by. Everything. It just flows. It's so tight. It's so great. Yeah.

You know. You wrote the outline. You're such a dream. And just thank you from us. us and our audience are just like creating these spaces to talk about the stuff. Your breakup boot camp is really so great. Your book is great. Nothing makes me feel better in these situations, whether it's a situation ship or a breakup or anything, then knowing that everybody has been through this kind of stuff and they survived it and they're going to be fine and so am I. So to create a space for that is

really great. So we just love your work so much. Yeah. Thank you. There's so many people that come to breakup boot camp because of the Girls Got Eat podcast. We have to hear that. We just love it. And just a call back to friend and former guest, Lillian, who's a stylist, says the same thing. And she says, my girl's got to eat clients are the best. And they are, like, so committed to working on themselves and bettering their lives and living their best lives. And so our audience just warrants by heart. Also, Jennifer Freed, who was on the show recently, just mess just and said that the girl's got to eat audience bought more of her books than anyone else ever. So, yeah, we just love you guys. I just want to cast you up. Yeah. Tell everybody where they can find you, your website, your

Instagram, everything you want people to check out. Yeah, the website's renew, Breakup Bootcamp.com. My book is Breakup Bootcamp, The Science of Rewa in Your Heart. And my Instagram is at Miss Amy Chan. Yes. And we didn't bring this up earlier, but I think you did see it. Oh, you posted it that we credited your promotion shower. Oh, yeah. So we love that too. Again, we had you on today to talk about relationships and breakups, but you're so big on like empowering women and your friends and celebrating wins other than romance, marriage, kids, all that stuff. So we love that too. Thank you. Romance is one slice of the pie of a great life, right? You look at it like it's a circle and there's

different slices. A cake. Yes. Or a cake, yeah. And so like if you're single, if you've had like disappointing relationships, okay, like focus on building out those other slices, your friendships, your friendships, your communities, doing something that makes you feel empowered, maybe that's writing poetry, whatever it is. And as those things get stronger, you'll find the relationship piece might really easily fit in or not, but you won't feel so depleted or like self-hatred when it doesn't because your focus is on the whole pie, not whole cake, not the one slice. Absolutely. Perfect mic drop. Vending. All right. Well, thank you again. Amy and you guys check her out, buy her books, all the things. And we'll see you in Vancouver in the fall. Yay. Thanks so much.

Bye. Okay. Well, we hope you all enjoyed that wonderful interview with Amy. And And you can find us at girls got to eat.com. Get tickets to the tour dates. And again, stay tuned for tour dates coming soon. But grab those Girls Gottoe podcast on Instagram. I'm Ash Hess. Raina's rana.com. We are on TikTok. Girls got a podcast on TikTok. And then Vibes Only is our line of sex toys and our erotic audio app. So check out Vivesonly.com, Vibes only on Instagram. And we would love if you left us a review. If you enjoyed this, just click the five stars, Spotify, Apple, wherever you're listening, subscribe on YouTube, share this episode with a friend. And we'll see you next week.

Have a good week, guys. Bye.