Girls Gotta Eat - Where Are All the Decent Men? feat. Author Jon Birger

Episode Date: January 11, 2021

There's a reason why there are so many incredible, successful, beautiful women who struggle to find a decent partner, while (*cough* mediocre) men seem to have no problem on the dating scene, and we're deep diving into the data behind this frustrating phenomenon with Jon Birger, author of Date-Onomics and the upcoming book Make Your Move. We discuss how geography plays a part (yes, there are cities/towns where the odds are more in one gender's favor), and how women can widen their dating pool. And we're also chatting about making the first move, how and why to do it, the bad advice women have been given for years, and Jon offers his strategy for finding a compatible partner (spoiler alert: it involves getting off the apps). We also review Bridgerton, debate some sexual language Ashley received, and Rayna reveals her new bush goal. Enjoy! Check out more on Jon at his website, and pre-order his upcoming book Make Your Move. Follow him on Twitter @JonBirger1. Follow us on Instagram @GirlsGottaEatPodcast, Ashley @AshHess, and Rayna @Rayna.Greenberg. Check our website for show dates and merchandise. Thank you to our partners this week: Calm: Get 40% off a premium subscription at calm.com/gge. Earnest: Get a $100 bonus at earnest.com/gge. Terms and conditions apply. Visit earnest.com/licenses. HelloFresh: Go to Hellofresh.com/10gge and use code 10GGE for 10 free meals + free shipping. Buffy: For $20 off your Buffy comforter, visit Buffy.co and enter code GGE. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You know, this question that you guys know and everybody who lives in the big city knows, like, why is it there are so many fabulous women who can't find a decent guy? Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat. Welcome back. We haven't given a weather update in a while. I was thinking that. Do you want to do it? It's, you know, I'm thinking that I'm not going to do it.

Anyway, thanks to our partners. No, just kidding. No, I think it's like 37 and sunny. Not windy. You know, I fucking hate wind. Like in the winter. Like in the winter. I hate a wind chill.

It's sunny at least. I love a sunny winter day. It's New York. I hate when people talk to me about the weather. I'm like, have you lived here? I love talking about the weather. People like I just love like dumb, small talk about the weather.

Do you? Because it's like it connects us all. Like I talked to the dormant about it all the time. What else do we have to talk about? I'll talk to your dormant about anything. I stopped in today. I was like, how's your nearest. Would you do?

Okay. What? What's happening first? Do you want to tell me your story? You have a Christmas story. A Christmas story? A Christmas story? A Christmas story. I want to tell you about, let's go in chronological orders. I want to tell you. This is just a funny thing that I've been meaning to tell you. So we all know that I'm only, that I'm not dating guys in their 20s anymore. This was probably one of the last interactions I had with a guy that was in his 20s. This was like... What of the last interactions? That's a lie. I went on a date with one after this, but this was just like a funny dating app exchange that happened on Christmas Day. You know, the holiday. days are always lit on the apps. Yeah, because you think that nobody's going to be on there, but everyone's just at home ignoring their families on the dating apps. Yes. So this guy liked me on Hinge and he was like 27 and he did look really young, not like too young, not like creepy young, but he did look young, but he also looked a little like Nick Robinson, who is the actor from a teacher. I was like, that is exactly what I thought you were going to say. It was

fresh in my mind and I was like, I'll do it. And I did not do it. So, I was like, whatever. I was kind of bored, too. So I was talking to this guy. And I soon realized he was asking me some kind of interesting questions. Like, so what brings you on the apps? I'm like, I don't know. Like, they were invented.

Like, what do you mean? I've been on here for a while. Like, what is he? You think he was like, you know, he wanted you to say like I broke up with somebody a week ago? So come to find out after chatting a little bit that he just got on the apps for like the first time at 27. Okay. And he's like, so what do they like? have you gone out with anybody?

And I started to be like, oh my gosh, this actually is like a kid. And like I'm not signing up to be a teacher for somebody that's getting, but you would role play a little bit. Getting into online dating for the first time. Like he literally was like, have you gone on any dates? And I was like, I've got on a couple. And he said, oh, nice, how have they gone?

The guys weren't freaks, right? Ha, ha, ha. Like, my biggest fear is being catfish. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, this is just not. What? Is he gay? And so I was just like, they've gone well. I have yet to be catfish. And then I was like, I was like, I'm not going to talk to this guy anymore.

His age just started to be like very, feel very extreme. He seems very earnest. It was super earnest. And I feel like he was just like, knows I was a lot older. I was like pumping me for information. It started to feel like a dynamic I didn't want to be a part of. You don't want to role play the teacher or stuff. Can I teach you arithmetic?

I know, even though he kind of looked like. The battery and theater. Like Eric. You know, Eric, Eric. Like Eric, Eric. So I wrote like, I've never been Caffish. And he wrote like, oh, good to hear a success story. And then I got to read you this.

This threw me off. Ha ha. Honestly, everyone has been very chill that I'm not worried about it. I feel like maybe the guys are a little more crazy, though. Like I have a bunch of friends who have been offered a menager twa. Okay, here's my theory. He's 12. I have not used that phrase since I heard it in a song and I was 12 and I told everyone who would listen. He's not 12. He's a boomer. Like I feel like I got catfish by a boomer. Okay. Since who is said menager twas since threesome became a normal word? You know what I mean? Like, when you were 12, you heard that song like, Vue le, voe, coche. And then you just, like, looked up what it meant, your mom told you.

And then you told everybody you knew what it meant. And I was 12. But also, I feel like, we just, the word is threesome. Like, the word is threesome. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's why you don't say monajotwak. A, for, it's not English, for one, it's French. And we're English speaking people.

And the word is threesome. Also, listen, if I'm five sentences into an interaction of the person and threisems have come up, we've taken the wrong turn. But menageretre. What? Millennial. Younger millennial. I think 27's still millennial.

What millennial has ever said menagerie twas? You think he was kidding? No, you know, I know it's because he's so earnest and like sweet. There's no way that that was kidding. I, and then, all right, but then it was just so funny because I was like, I'm being catfish by you're right, a 12 year old or a 57 year old. And you're right. Somebody doesn't know what a thing is. Then I just looked back.

He did unmatch me. like I feel like he was like my ruse is going too far I said minasetua I'm caught he showed it to a friend and the friend was like bro people don't say that just that badger

people don't say that anymore umpatcher she's going to find her out I feel like on dating apps not that I'm ever on them I feel like I'm pretty open to like different people have like different turns of phrases that I'm fine with even like spelling errors minotatua for this person I'm out like yes I'm so glad

you feel me on how absurd it was. Like it shook me up a minute. I was like, that person is never going to tell you to choke on their dick. Like that person is just too nice to talk dirty talk. He's not going to like eat you out the way you want. No. But anyway,

so I got catfished. That's why I'm not dating guys in their 20s anymore. I'm still sticking to it one weekend. Well, that guy's either 12 or 52. You're right. He's not in his 20s. And allegedly I have a date coming up.

We'll see. With a 39-year-old. He's very hot. He's salt pepper hair. He's 39. He's hot. He looks like Anthony Bourdain. Also, I matched with him.

I'm just kidding. What? I'm talking about doing. I told you the other day that I might have matched them and you were like, we need to sync up our matches. We do need to sink up our matches. Because our ages are aligned now. I know. I know that one time I was like, did you match with a Nick?

I don't believe you. I think you did. No, I don't know. You're all named Nick? No, this guy is a different name. I'm glowing and we're going to talk about why. Okay. It's New Year.

I'm back on my bullshit. I've had like a on my bullshit 24 hours. I worked out. I started a skincare routine. Hear me out. Hear me out about my skincare routine. I did one face mask last night. And then I put some collagen lotion lotion on my face.

Is that a skincare routine? That's huge. Is that a skincare routine? Yes. This is why Raina can't do the Rory. You looked at me the other day and said you were like, that's really bad for your skin. You said it's so serious.

And I was like, I'm an adult bitch. Get out of it. but then I was like maybe I should do something nice. Like I was like put some sunscreen on. Yeah, you were like do something nice for your skin. Yeah. So I did.

I put some collagen under my eyes. Okay. Tighten that shit up. I'm going to go home. I'm going to cook my lentil detox soup. And I'm very excited to cook soup because you and your mom sent me one of the sweetest. You guys are like a whole household of thoughtful gifts. So you actually, we'll put it on our Instagram.

We should put it on Instagram. You sent me a really beautiful custom girls got to eat painting. And then you and your mom got me a, I had to Google what this was called because I thought there'd be like a nice name for it. It's just a soup, spoon rest. Yes. And the custom artwork I got you was from Jeremy Brown. He is someone I know he's based out of Atlanta. Check him out on Instagram artist Jeremy Brown.

His stuff is incredible. And my mom and I were just talking about your suit making and what you could use that you don't already have. And my mom came up with that because the spoon rest is like such a thing that, like, I don't have one, but I always grow up. You know, my mom had one on the stove. Yeah, moms have them. And I never had one.

I've been thinking for a long time I need it. and you got me a custom one that says vibes only. I know. Which is so special. Spoonrest is like, I got found it on, we found it on Etsy. It's like stamped and it says vibes only.

It's really special. So thank you very much. I love it so much. You didn't get the other thing yet? I didn't. You know my down my dormit. I'm so mad you don't know what the other thing is because it goes with that. And it's like,

you better get it. I'm pissed. I will, you know that they just like gave me whatever packages they felt like finding today. I'll get the phone. But it says delivered to customer that makes two things someone stole in your building. But your best friends are there when you're building. Just start asking around.

I am best friends in my whole building. I, like, sent out the alert last night. I'm like, I'm around this week. If anybody wants to take out? Oh, my God. But no, I'm back on my bullshit. And I'm going to get on the apps because so many people watch my Instagram story yesterday and told me that I was glowing, like, so many.

And I was like, it's all the cum in my system. I think that you can just, it's not just, it's orgasms. I've been having a lot of orgasms lately. Well, also the cum. But just to clarify, because, like, I, people were like, you know, you spent this whole week of this guy last week. You're getting on the dayups. That's not somebody who's going to be like a long-term party.

to me. It's somebody who I like a lot. We just, we want very different things in life. I think it's just this very mature. Like, we care about each other. We're not going to have a future together. So, like, even if he heard this, I don't think he would be like, I can't believe she's saying that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad. I'm sure people are like, what happened? Yeah, this is a guy. We've talked about him a lot. He is a red aura. If you remember, I'm not a fan. But, yeah, you guys reconnected. And yeah, it's, it's nice. I mean, those situations are rare. I have been, I was in a situation like that with somebody until I discovered all his stuffed animals. Like I, where you're like, I like this guy.

I'm attracted to him. The sex is great. But we're just not going to be long term. But like this is fun while it lasts. It's so rare to feel like that. And it feels nice to feel like that because everybody keeps me like, you know how many people said to me? Are you guys in love?

And I'm like, it was just a nice time with somebody that I like and the sex was good. But it's like this mature thing. We were like, oh, we don't want the same stuff. And I'm like, I don't think about it. It doesn't like weigh on me really badly. and also you don't like regional team as long-term matchroom but he's never done anything

like so terrible to me. He's fine. It was on the horizon. He was unnoticed. He should find us that it was and he was going to come for me. Okay. So I'm getting back.

I'm going to get on the apps. Let me stop you right there. I'm going to stop here. Our guests today might make us feel differently. We have an guest we are so excited about. He's an author of a book we just read called Datanomics. He's a new book coming out.

His name is John Berger. So guys get ready for him. But he told us that he is a, kind of negative outlook on the apps. And he just said that in our email correspondence with him. So I am very intrigued to hear what he has to say. So I'm curious if, like, we'll both change our minds. I mean, you know, but neither of us are like super excited about the apps.

It's just like, kind of you do them because it's like all we really have right now. Yeah. I mean, I've talked for years about how like I would never use an app. I like to meet people in person. That's not the world we live in right now. I'm not going to bars. I'm not meeting people. I'm walking up to strangers.

I'd like to have some love in my life. I really did enjoy being with somebody. last week. Like, we spent like eight nights together. We were together for like such an intense period of time. And I realized, like, it's so nice to just have somebody, well, that has to have sex with me and give me attention all the time. But it's just, it's nice to have somebody around and I enjoy it. And I would like to have that with somebody who I have a long term future with. And so like, you got to do it on dating apps if you're going to do it. Well, I'm curious to see what he says. I cannot wait because, you know, you know my stance. It still holds that I've never

gotten a second date from an app. And I have been dating a lot. I've been going on a lot of first States. But I will say it's like someone could be like, wait, what about that one guy? You went on a second date with him. The guy that I said, I just wanted to be friends with. Nope, he's slid to my DM. So I still have yet to go on that second date from an app. It is not my preferred way to meet people. But I have been hitting them harder than ever and actually going out with guys safely outside. But I'm curious to see what he says for like the world we live in now. I just can't wait. I'm like so juiced up to talk to him. We're going to talk to him shortly. It's the most excited I've been for an interview. You told me about this book. Ashley, no, no, no.

Ashley called me and told me about this book. But you know where I heard it. Where? Shan. Shan Booty. She said she was reading Datanomics. She said it really quickly. On our show?

Yeah, on our show because we were talking about moving to a place that will be better for you to date. And she said it really quickly. And I picked up on it because I was like, oh, Datanomics. I just love that name, you know, like the numbers game of dating. And so I picked this book up and I was shook by it. And matchmaker Maria, who we've had on our show, is quoted in it. And so some of the stuff she even said on her, our episode with her a couple years ago was in the book.

And so she actually introduced us to him. And he just seems like an angel. He, um, his correspondence has been my favorite correspondence with anybody. He's the kindest, most wonderful. You guys are going to meet him in a minute. But, um, also, you told me about this book. It's been really eye-opening. I'm excited for him to just, like, talk me out of online dating.

Oh, no. You know, I'm always waiting to be talked out of it. I hate it. It's so true. Okay. But actually, before we get into Bridgett, I just want to say somebody did reach out to us. We've been getting a lot of these lately. And she said that she comes from a very conservative household, very sexually conservative,

and that we inspired her to buy Shan's book. And she was excited to, like, explore her sex side of herself. And we've been getting a lot of messages like that recently. And it makes me really happy to hear that you guys are sort of breaking free from what you think is shameful or not acceptable. And that our guests can help you explore that side of your life. And that really, like, warms my heart. It makes me so happy. I love it, too.

Yeah, I just, I don't have one to cite offhand, but I feel like we've been getting a lot of those emails lately. Like I think people ended the year and started the year with a lot of like thank you for what you've done for me kind of emails to us is really nice

so thank you guys we love you. Yeah. The moment that we've been waiting for. Oh my God. Okay, we teased it last week really briefly but we are going to talk

about Bridgerton, which is on Netflix. Spoilers ahead for sure if you haven't watched it. Yeah, just give it out a few minutes. Okay, so I'm glad that you made me watch it. I'm glad that you made me

stick through it because my feeling was I did not like the first five episodes. But the last three episodes I loved. Oh, I mean, I would never watch a show. I didn't even like the first 10 minutes of. But you loved it. So I, and we promised we would talk about it.

I just didn't like the plot. But the last three episodes I loved, I loved the cast. You know, also, I don't love, like, British aristocracy films. It's not something that I gravitate towards. Yeah, I feel the same. Like, I didn't watch. I never can remember the name of this. Oh, what is it?

No, everybody loved it. Landing down or Downton Abbey Downton Abbey What? Downton Abbey. How did we get there? I never watched that.

Like yeah, I just, I don't know. Like to look at it if I just saw like a photo of the show, I'd be like, that's not my kind of show. But I was so, so into it. I like loved the plot like for moment one. Do you want to tell people what the plot is? Do you think people have seen it? Yeah, we mentioned it last week.

It's really like it's like gossip. girl. There's this mysterious ghost writer that writes a gossip column about what's going on in this town. It takes place in London in the early 1800s, I think like 1815. And there's a queen and a king. And it's heavily based on this interracial community. The queen is black. She's married to a white king. And so there's no hierarchy based on your race. The lead actor is a black man who is so hot. Oh my God. The lead actress is a white woman. And I've seen some mixed reviews. on how the show tackled race. But, I mean, you know, at the end of the day,

it is still like a unique thing to see such diversity and a period piece that took place at that time. I thought it was really, really unique and interesting. Okay, the queen looked like Maya Rudolph and I could not unsee it. I thought it was Maya Rudolph. I couldn't believe it wasn't Maya Rudolph.

I thought the Featherington woman was Elizabeth Banks. You did? Oh, I can see that. I don't look that up. Okay. And then also, do you know who the main character, the female lead? Do you know what she was in? also. She's in younger and she's the Irish girl. Yeah. Oh my God. By Josh. No. Yes, that's her. Yes, it is her. Because I was like, who is this girl? I did think she had a familiar face,

but just like a familiar face for like a Hollywood actress. Oh my God. Yes. Wow. Yeah. So also one of our favorite shows. That's crazy. Okay. What was your favorite scene? My favorite scene. So we were talking about like one of the sex scenes going to happen. Are there enough sex scenes? This one, sex scene made up for the lack of sex scenes in the first couple episodes. They do a montage of her and the main characters, the two main characters fucking, like all over the place to Taylor Swift's Wildest Dreams set to violins. Girl, I know, because I will tell you, the first time I realized they were using current music with the violins was Thank You Next. So it was one of the first balls, like first or second episode. And I was like, what is this tune? And then I realized

it was Thank you next. I just started singing it. Like I just started singing it to realize what it was. And then it was, it was thank you next. And the next song was like, I don't know if it was a Harry Styles. It was some like current song. And then girl like you, the Maroon Five song. Maroon Five. And then yes, that like the wildest dreams was insane. Incredible.

That was such, you're right, that was such a good scene. It's one of my favorite scenes I've ever seen in a TV show ever. It was worth getting through the first five episodes for it. I mean, I'm just, I'm obsessed with current music with like an orchestra. It was incredible. Never seen it before. Okay. my favorite scene was when she masturbated.

Did you, were you like shook by like how out of place but amazing that was like because you're like thinking like girls didn't know how to do that back then? When he was telling her like how to masturbate, that was one of the hottest things I've ever seen. I almost masturbated too. I know. I did. I took a break. But and then she.

On this couch. Okay. So here's to play off of that, here's one of the things I just thought was so crazy. And again, I don't know. I don't study those time periods. I know it was like totally a different time. But I think it's so interesting the difference between like the free women that can do whatever they want.

And I guess some people would think of them as like pariahs of society or whatever. And then like the debutantes. I mean, just looking at it from from the outside, like I would rather be the opera singer that gets to fuck whoever she wants than the girl who's engaged and doesn't know where babies come from. Like it is so nuts. like the stark contrast between these women that get to do whatever they want and fuck whoever they want and live these lives where I guess they are like making their own money and they're like doing

something they're passionate about as opposed to these women in the high society that literally don't know what sex is. It's so fascinating. I'm with you. I've studied that time period, but it feels accurate, right? Because she didn't know how babies were made. Like he kept pulling out. She didn't know like why.

She didn't even know what sex was before even. I mean, before the day of her wedding. didn't know what sex was. Like, I don't know how normal that is. I guess that her mom just kept her in the dark. But, like, it's so nuts that, like, a kiss could ruin a woman's future. And these other women get to fuck whoever. Why would anybody tell you, though?

Like, even now it's awkward to talk to your daughters about sex. Like, who would tell you about it? I don't know. But, yeah, I would be the opera singer or the dressmaker. Okay. Do you want to talk about who Lady Whistledon is without revealing it? I would, so I was shook because, like, I thought it was somebody else for, I don't need to get into it. I thought that I read a spoiler, but I didn't. It was all, I was just, I was shook when I found out who it was. Yeah. I was shook. I was just, I was shocked. I want to rewatch it almost to go back and rewatch it from that lens. I still think I would have been happier. I thought who it was, was a dressmaker. Yeah, I thought it was. Also, so did Eloise.

Mm-hmm. So, which Eloise loved her. I love that they, they made a character like that. I love, I mean, she just like, like, aggressive feminist. I mean, that girl lives in Brooklyn. She's a writer. That girl just, like, writes for like... She went to Sarah Lawrence. I loved her. I love that character.

But anyways, for me, yes, I... It took a little while to get super into it. I'm very glad that I waited it out. I love the last three episodes. It makes me very excited for season two. Love the cast. Love the music. Love the sex scenes.

I could have done with more of them, but I love the ones that they did. Yeah, like, I was just like, when are they gonna fuck? I know. Okay. Is there going to be another season? Or was just like this was just...

I just, the way they wrapped it up, it felt to me like this was it. Like, this was a good Queen's Gambit, like a one-off series. I didn't think they were going to reveal who Lady Whistledon was and they do in the last, like, second of it. If they didn't reveal who that was, I would say for sure. But I kind of thought second season. But I'm like, she got pregnant. Like, everything just got like tidied up. Like Marina pregnant girl went with that guy.

Like, they just like buttoned everything up. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess we could Google this. Okay. And then actually I just did Google. Season 2 hasn't been confirmed yet, but it seems likely. I mean, yeah, due to the popularity, I just didn't know if it wasn't planned. Like, some shows are just the one series.

Yeah, maybe you're right. I don't know. Well, someone emailed us in just one line, her email. She said the sideburns are ruined it for me. That was the fashion back then. Listen, also, as somebody who has some pretty prominent sideburns, I just shaved them off the other day. They were getting so long. They were like Orthodox Jews.

like curly peas. Very, very prominent. I shaved him down the other day. And then I was worried that that guy I was with was going to like touch my face and like, be like, did you shave this? But I did it anyways. Also,

I'm working on a landing strip. I just wanted to tell you. We're going to do our, we're going to think our partners get to the episode, but I am going to work on a landing strip. It will probably take me four months to grow enough hair to do a landing strip. I just don't understand landing strip. I think it's sexy.

But I don't know how far down the hair should grow. I don't know how thick the landing strip should be. like, do you, is it go all the way down the lips? Do you stop? Is there a hard stop at the top of the lips? I just thought it was like on the top. I don't get it. I don't understand them.

It's not that there's hair in your, like, in the lips. Yeah, but it's got to fade down into the, like, it's got to be, it can't just be like a rectangle and then it cuts off at the top of your plate. I feel like. Like, every time I've seen one, I'm just like, that's so weird. No, I mean, no, Shane, if you like it. It feels naughty to me and I'm going to do it. But what? It's just like a patch of hair.

It's just a patch of hair. What is the point of this? I don't know. It's so weird to me. I don't understand it. I want to have a little fashion down there. Go for it. I might shave a triangle and just see how that looks.

Me as well. And then I'm going to do it. I'm not doing nothing. I'm literally doing nothing. I'm full of cumming orgasms and I'm glowing. And you're going to get back in the apps, but probably not once we talk to John. John, I mean, honestly, I'm a John Stan. Oh my gosh, such a John Stan.

Very excited. Are you ready? I am ready. I might not be ready. Okay, I need to, like, get it all out because I'm going to like, fan girl so much. Oh my God. We are really so excited

to introduce our guests for today. He is an award-winning magazine writer, a former senior writer at both Fortune and Money Magazine, a dating expert and the author of Datanomics, How Dating Became a Lopsided Numbers game, plus the forthcoming book.

Make Your Move, the new science of dating and why women are in charge. Please welcome to the show, John Berger. Hey, guys. Hi. So I'm so glad Maria, our matchmaker friend, introduced us. She matched us.

She matched us. Exactly. Yeah. That's her job. Well, we want to talk about, obviously the book, Ashley and I are huge fans of Datamics. Ashley read it. She told me about it.

I immediately within minutes bought it. So we want you to talk about the book, obviously, and some of the themes. But maybe we just kick it off by talking about, you know, how did you get into this? How did you become a quote-unquote dating expert? What's your general background and what gives you a background in writing about this? Yeah. So as you're kind of alluding to, the first question I typically get is something along the lines of how the fuck did a Fortune magazine writer who typically writes about super boring stuff like agriculture or oil and gas or mutual funds. Like how do I end up writing a book about dating?

Yeah. Well, that stuff is sexy, you know, sexy stuff. Well, I'm really into fracking. So. Okay. Hot. Yeah, it is. a lot of high pressure involved. Anyway, I'm going to stop with the oil and gas jokes right there.

I still don't understand fracking. Okay, let's keep going. That's a different podcast. So the backstory is that the editorial staff at Fortune was mostly women. And like it was impossible not to notice that most of the women at Fortune were kind of single and generally, unhappily single. Like they had these dating stories and dating histories that seem really weird to me because they seem to have everything going for them dating wise. Whereas most of the men were like me and they were either married or involved in a relationship. And I think I can objectively say we had less going for us dating wise than the women I worked with. And I couldn't figure out why dating seems so much easier for men than it did women. And that was kind of the origin of datonomics. Okay. And this is based fortune in New York City? Yeah, New York City, yeah.

Okay. Okay. So, okay. So, the hellscape for women. You're right. I mean, so many women, all of our friends, there's a funny meme about it, but all of our friends, they have great jobs, hobbies, interests. They're amazing, amazing women in the city. Yeah, although I will say when I began the book, I assumed there was something unique about cities like New York. I figured that there was something about these great, you know, metropolitan, sophisticated cities like New York or L.A. or Toronto or London. There was something about these cities that were attracting disproportionate numbers of women and maybe it was the job market that was to blame. But it turned out that the, like the gender imbalance in

Montana is just as bad as it is in New York City. It's like it's worse in West Virginia. than it is in California. So it wasn't, my theory going in was wrong. This was kind of an everywhere problem, not just a big city problem. But the question was, why are there all these amazing women in their 30s

that can't sort of seem to, quote, quote, figure out dating. Right, right. And obviously, like, if you, I'm sure their moms would tell you they suck at dating and they need to go on a cruise or join a book club or something like that. And I think this is the experience that a lot of marriage-minded single women have.

Everybody tells them they're going about things all wrong and that they're bad at it. And that their mom says, well, our neighbor's daughter met her husband doing whatever. And you should do whatever too. But, you know, my take, it's not that men are really good at dating and women suck at dating. It's that since the late 1990s, We've had about one third more women and men graduate from college in the U.S. And it's actually not just in the U.S. It's basically every Western country.

And obviously this wouldn't matter if we were more open-minded about whom we date and eventually marry. But at the same time that the college gender gap has been opening up, there's been kind of a simultaneous increase in what academics call assortative mating, which is just a fancy way of saying college grads only want to date and marry other college grads. So what we've ended up with are these two very distinct dating pools, dating market, kind of a blue-collar world, and once there are too many men in the white-collar world with too many women. And it's actually not just a statistical problem. There's all this social

science that's been done on sex ratios showing that these lopsided sex ratios affect behavior. And I think that's what the women you know experience. Can we start just a little bit with like an overview of where this is so prevalent? I mean, I think some of the fascinating things in the book is like that New York was such a hotbed of too many women. And then this, like the West Coast was more men. And then it was like you looked at colleges too. I guess we don't want to go into this. Yeah.

I mean, there's a lot about New York there just because I live in New York and I had good stories to tell about New York. With California, I mean, the San Francisco Bay Area, Silicon Valley, in particular is like this one giant outlier in which there's more college-educated men than women. And it really, it's interesting, it really shows up in the marriage and divorce data. The marriage rates for college grad women in Santa Clara County, which is kind of a loose proxy for Silicon Valley, the marriage rates are sky high and the divorce rates are really low. So you can really see how which sex has the upper hand really affects kind of the outcomes. I love that you also talked about college campuses.

And, you know, so we have a lot of younger listeners. And so it's like, I love that you were like, no one's talking about this. And these kids don't know this before they go off to college. And it really does alter the behavior of males and females. And we should know what we're going into. Well, I mean, colleges were really how I kind of made the argument. Because- Sure, so you start with colleges.

Yeah, because the great thing, just from a research standpoint about college campuses, is that they're kind of self-contained dating pools. I mean, it's not perfect. I mean, obviously, if you live in, if you got a college in New York or Boston, you might not, you might be dating people from outside your campus,

but in general, generally speaking, you know, people who go to Clemson or dating other people from Clemson or people who go to... That's where I went. I know. Okay. And it wasn't in the book. It wasn't in the book. I'm sorry.

Just like you guys checked me out, I did a little bit of research. So, yeah, so as you know, I'm sure most of the people in your Clemson were dating other Clemson students. And people who go to Northwestern are dating other Northwestern kids. So it becomes kind of self-contained. And one of the things I did in the book is I did this study of about 40 college campuses, colleges. And I ranked them by their sex ratios. and then I paired that data with how kids on campus describe the dating culture at their schools. And the descriptions came courtesy of niche.com, which is this kind of college review website

and for like kids applying to college. So I'm going to just read a few of these to you and we can go into more detail if you want. So I'm going to start with the schools that are mostly male. like RPI, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, which is in upstate New York. The comment about dating at RPI is most people are involved in relationships. Girls seem to become stuck up because they're in such a minority and they can afford to be very choosy. Georgia Tech, which is in Atlanta, 66% men. Tech is a fairly monogamous campus.

For the most part, people like to be in relationships. It's not just the overwhelmingly male tech schools, like Tufts University in suburban Boston. Tufts is 50-50. And here's the comment. Halfway through sophomore year, people begin to pair off and generally stay paired off through junior and senior year. University of Miami, also 50-50s has a reputation as a big party school, right? the comment about dating at the U is random hookups are common in the beginning, but after a few months or a year, relationships take over.

Now, let's, you know, just park that in your brain, and let's compare that to the schools that are 60-40 women to men. You know, in 60, just, I mean, I know you got, I know your listeners get this, but 60-40 means three women for every two men. I think that's the way to think about it. So New York University in Manhattan, guys take advantage of the male to female ratio and most have no plans of settling into a long-term relationship. University of Georgia and Athens, hookups occur rampantly at the bar scene downtown.

The walk of shame is pretty common for many students. Boston University, where actually my son is a student, freshman year is a sexual explosion. There are girls to go around and around again, and BU is 62% women, 38% male. And probably like the saddest, you know, case study is Sarah Lawrence College. I didn't even know that men could go there.

I know. I mean, this is the comment in the book, but we got to talk about my own experience in interviewing Sarah Lawrence kids. But the comment from niche.com was the girl, and Sarah Lawrence is 75% women, which means three women for every, or two women for every one man, I think. Yeah. The girls complain about loneliness.

The guys get more than they can handle. And mindless one-night stands are rampant. Yeah. So you can see how, as you kind of move down the spectrum or up the spectrum, depending upon your viewpoint, you can see how the mindset and how the behavior changes. And, you know, as I said, I spent a chunk of time on the Sarah Lawrence campus interviewing kids there. And there was this one woman who told me that her roommate had been hooking up with this guy, her roommate had been hooking up with the guy for a week.

And when he broke up with her, he actually used the word market. like the market for me is too good, which was kind of mind-blowing to her. And then it was actually a Sarah Lawrence guy I interviewed. And like, just to give you some perspective, I mean, he, he wasn't bad looking, but he was no Steph Curry or anything like that. I mean, he kind of looked like. Like me, you pick Steph Curry. I don't know. I don't know who I'm supposed to be.

But, but, yeah, like he. We know what you mean. Okay. Not a Don Juan. He looked like He looked a little bit like John Lennon circa 1972 except even more malnourished like that that kind of thing

So he was telling me about like all of his Escapades and his social life And at one point I kind of just had to stop him And I said okay his name was Jake And I said Jake I'm just curious of your current circle of friends At Sarah Lawrence How many of the women have you had sex with

and he said, hmm, I'd say about 20. That is wild. And I had the exact same reaction, and he kind of caught himself, and he tried to, like, in his own way, backtrack a little bit and, like, take the edge off of it. And his comment to me was, well, you know, just to be fair, that includes some threesomes and foursums. Oh, more people on the same night.

Right, right. In his mind, that made it a little less, you know, less crazy. So, you know, obviously you take this, I want to talk about colleges for a second and then, you know, apply it to larger cities. But you talk about this imbalance in all these cities and you start to see these crazy patterns emerge of the way that men treat women, the way the women treat men, the way people look at themselves. What other findings did you find? I mean, I do have some regrets about kind of the tone of datonomics. And I kind of, there are points in time where I was kind of just, you know, I might as well have been writing about the. the like mating habits of sea otters or something or like I just I didn't have any

That's okay. It's a date. It's a data driven book. Yeah. But but but there was like there are points where I was a little too glib about it. But I just interviewed all these women who were very marriage minded and I don't assume all everybody wants to get married and have kids. But there were just these women who were really, really struggling and couldn't figure out

what they were doing wrong. And it wasn't just kind of. cosmopolitan women in New York. I mean, I also interviewed Mormon women in Utah and ultra-orthodox Jews in kind of, you know, Long Island, New York. And for different reasons, there are gender imbalances in their communities, but the stories were pretty similar, but the guys would just kind of exploit the gender ratios and the women kind of paid the price. I love some of the studies you did in terms of the way that men act when there are less women, they're more protective, and when there's more women, they almost act like they're disposable. And I think that what I loved was not loved,

what I loved, I guess love hated was some of the quotes from some of the men in the book that were like, I never thought I could get girls like this. I couldn't date girls this hot and this successful in high school or in college or wherever they went to college. But like, you know, we'll take New York, but apply it to all the other cities and all the other college campuses and all their places that have an oversupply of women. And it's just so fascinating because you put the math and science behind why men act like this. And it's the questions that women have been asking themselves for ages. And what we talk about is like, how can men, boys, guys act like this? And why are there so many incredible women? And that's the coolest part about the book is because while it's a little bit

depressing, it's so validating. You know, this question that you guys know and everybody who lives in the big city knows, like, why is it there are so many fabulous women who can't find a decent guy? And it's like accepted, well, that's just the way life is. That's just the way it is. There's no explanation. You know, and I was kind of eager to figure out the why part. And I just, I feel like so many of these women were blaming themselves. for their dating problems.

And my goal was to make a clear that this is not their fault, that there's kind of bigger issues going on here. And, you know, they, in terms of the guys, like, I don't think guys or women are going around doing a head count and saying, well, okay, there's one, two, three, four of you, and one, two of me, I'm now going to behave differently. I think it's like more of a one in, Rome do as the Romans thing?

Yeah, I don't know that people like stop to think about the actual numbers. I just think that a lot of men know in these larger cities or in college campuses where they're grossly outnumbered. And you use this example in the book that they have a slew of women in their phone. If somebody says no, there's five other backup women. And I don't, I don't personally, as a woman in my 30s in New York City, I don't have that. I don't have a backup of five men or women. Five men if one says no.

So, and you attribute. that to, you know, less men going to college. You attribute that to more men going into blue-collar fields and being able to make a living in a way. You talk about the birth control of pill and all kinds of things, but there truly is an under supply of men that are worthy of these women. I will say, the guys don't think that they're taking advantage of a gender ratio. Sure. They think they're special. And there's something about, you know, maybe, you know, their wardrobe's gotten a little better since they were 18 or their weekend gym routine or or maybe they're a lot funnier now than they were when they were 21.

Like they think it's them. And they think... Well, I don't know. I might jump in here and just disagree a little bit just because I think the smart men realize it. And I know you said it in the book that so many guys are they told their friends like, you got to come to me. You've got to move to me in New York City. There's so many girls here.

Like I think that I've heard guy friends say like, we know, we know. We know we can walk down the street and we can see all these women coming from the workout classes and you have 10 beautiful women for every attractive tall man with a job. And so I think they started to catch on and they were like, guys, this is the place to be. And they did exploit it. But I don't think they know until they experience it. I think that's my point. Like they experience it and it's like, huh, you know, okay, this is interesting.

So I think you're right. Particularly the guys who never get married or at least like the guy who's not. never married at 39 who is not bad looking and works for Goldman Sachs or whatever. Like he knows it and his behavior shows it. But I do think there are guys who kind of just think they're lucky or kind of they think it's about them and that they're in high demand and there's something about them where they think they deserve all the attention. Which I would say, I mean, you tell me, if I'm, I would say makes their behavior even worse. If they think that they're like, they really deserve this shit, you know.

I think if men were aware that, like, this was an anomaly, they might, like, they might appreciate it a little more. Yeah. But if men were like, my, my dick is just, it's golden. Exactly. Yeah. I think the, you know, one of the guys at Sarah Lawrence actually said, I think he said, he described the phenomenon there as golden penis syndrome. in which they all felt like they were really, really special. Something I am so excited to discuss that you talked about in the book,

and that is when women in their 30s and their 40s and even late 20s, they're like at the top of their game, they're attractive, they're successful, and then the guys aren't up to par. It was pretty blunt. You were like, they're kind of undatable losers, you know? Well, either they're that or they've... gotten so used either on paper they're awesome like they're they're good looking and wealthy and you know they can crack a good joke and they're good company but they're just so used to this kind of

never-ending supply of women who are interested in them that even if they're not kind of undatable in the way you're talking about they may be undatable anyway emotional but i think you also said like there are also just some like losers with no jobs. You know, like there, it's such a stark contrast to women that are single, have, have never married, you know. Yeah. Yeah. No, I just, you know, I mean, again, the reason I wrote the book is that my wife and I know

all these like amazing women in their 30s and 40s who wanted to get married and it just was confusing to us like why, why it was so hard for them. And I got married in my mid-20s, so I was a little like it was, this was more of like a curiosity than something I lived. Okay. And you see that like, you know, this and you tell me like what are you seeing about the percentage of men that are the quote unquote decent men with decent jobs, nice guys that have a healthy attachment style? You know, are they getting off the market a lot sooner so that the people that are actually left in the dating pool like you said in their late 30s? I actually do think kind of the younger men. are less jaded and less affected by this. In my new book, Make Your Move,

one of the pieces of advice I have for women is to date younger men. Because if you're 33, like a 28-year-old might not be, you know, as jaded and as affected by all this. And there's some research on this. The guys are more into older women than, you'd think. And also, I think the, you know, the, another thing I discussed in make your move is that one of the problems that so many successful have everything going for them women experience is guys who are kind of put off or intimidated by their success. And, and the women I interviewed who were

dating younger men, one of the things they talked about is that the guys weren't competitive with them in the same way. And that there was a little, bit more of a kind of an acceptance while she's four years older than me. Of course, she's going to be more successful. And it was like the age gap kind of took the edge off men's proclivity to like, you know, be competing all the time. I love that you said that. And this is all stuff we've talked about. I've dated younger, you know, five to 10 years younger the whole like last three years or so. And we've mentioned that, you know, guys that are 10 years younger, eight years younger than me. and they work in some similar field are 0% competitive with me,

and it just kind of works. And also, yeah, we feel like they're not as jaded because we think like a 35 plus year old man in New York City that's been single for a long time. It's fucked up. And so it's still like it's tough because I, you know, there's issues with the, I don't know. We don't need to get on this road,

but it's funny because you're kind of validate all the stuff that we've said. We used to really recommend younger men. Obviously, my advice is more macro than micro. So like I don't, I'm not going to tell any individual person. and that they have to date a younger guy or an older guy. I'm just talking generally. But, yeah, I see what you're saying, that as they get older,

they just get more accustomed to this, like women are disposable. I can fuck anything. If you're not around, five other people are. And, you know, Ashley and I do want to date somebody in the same phase of life as us,

but we totally agree with you. If you're five years older than a man, you're more successful than them, it's like, well, I'm supposed to be more successful than you. You know, and make your move, like there are lots of these really fun stories. that illustrate the points I'm making. And in the chapter on dating younger men,

there's a couple. I think she's, I think right now she's probably 34 and he's maybe 28. That's a good difference. And when they met, like, like, they didn't know. I mean, it wasn't apparent to either of them that there was an age gap.

And for him, it didn't matter at all. For her, it was a little bit of like, well, when I'm 40, is he going to think of old, that kind of thing? But they're actually married with a kid right now. And one of the things that he told me early on was that, you know, when he was dating women his age, he would get like he's in the art world and he would get super competitive with he'd be dating people in his business. And he'd get all pissed off when one of these women kind of outshined him in some way. Or like there was one story where he did one of the, he did his girlfriend a favor.

And this turned into this gig that he'd been angling for. for weeks. And he was just really, it kind of tanked the relationship because he was so upset that she got ahead of him essentially. And he told me that like with his now wife, like this was never an issue just because, of course, you know, he's at a little bit different stage than his wife who's, you know, five, six years older. Yeah.

And I think five, six years is great. I was just doing like eight to ten. Yeah. And it was just like not, you know, I've had some discharges. appointment. I just want to, before we move on too far, I want to back up and wrap up something we were talking about before, which is that there's all these women that, you know, have reached the age, let's say 35 and they can't find a man and the dating pool is smaller. And, you know, what are you seeing that do in terms of the behavior of women? Are they abandoning their desire to get married? Are they all just dating younger? What do you see? Or are they moving? Yeah, are they moving? How are you seeing this affect women? Once they sort of realize, you know, this feels like it's not me. Like, What's going on here? I mean, one of the pieces of advice I did have on datonomics was this idea of moving. That like, okay, you're stuck in a rut in Washington, D.C., or New York, or Miami,

maybe move to Denver, Seattle, or San Jose, where the marriage market or the dating market is more balanced. But the thing is, I actually think that works better for the younger woman who's just starting out. I'm kicking myself for this idea of like suggesting to a 40-year-old woman in Washington, D.C., who has a whole life and set of friends and a career, the idea that I'm going to tell her to move to Denver just because the sex ratios are better. Like, I just think more women are staying single. And you see this in the numbers. I mean, I have my own ideas about what people can do to beat the odds. And I'm a big fan of, and this is something I talk about to make your move, of kind of unchecking the college box, so to speak, when you're, you know, when you're dating and be open-minded about dating people who didn't go to college. I mean, I mean, I coach little league baseball.

I coach with and against all these, you know, like, you know, working class guys. I mean, they're contractors, cops, firemen, like. and I can tell you they're like great guys and terrific dads and they probably make way more money than you think they do. I mean like I I mean my plumber I am given how much I paid him last year I guarantee he makes more money than I do. Yeah I think we should abandon this notion that we all need to like move to New York City and date the Wall Street guy. That guy is not going to be a nice guy to you maybe some maybe some of them are I don't know my brother's like one of those guys but and he's a wonderful person but I like this idea that like women are sort of abandoning this idea that they have to be with that guy.

Yeah, I agree. And also like that guy, if he doesn't work for Goldman Sachs, if he, you know, he works, he's like me, he works in media or something like that. You know, he might have like $100,000 in college debt. You know, the, right. They don't have the college debt. I mean, the plumber, the electrician is probably also, maybe he's pulling in six figures if he lives in a suburb like where I live, and where. we're desperate to get, you know, our lighting fixtures fixed, no matter what the cost. But, but, you know, those guys, those guys don't have college debt. They also don't take their work home with them the way I do and maybe you guys do.

So like at the end of the day, they're kind of like free and easy and they're probably less stressed out and maybe better company than the guy on Wall Street who's worried about tomorrow's trade. Yeah. Are women changing? I mean, maybe you don't know the answer to this, but are women changing their standards? Or are they abandoning theirs? Are they just deciding, I don't need this stuff?

I have girlfriends. I got a good life. I mean, this isn't going to change overnight. But if you look at the demographic data, at the census data, there are more women married to lesser educated men than there are men married to lesser educated women. So the world is changing slowly but surely. And the percentage of women who are like primary breadwinners in their family is increasing. I mean, I'm in my own family, like, I'm, I mean, I'm not a stay-at-home dad, but I am the lead parent. I mean, my wife has a very high-pressure, very high-profile job.

And, you know, we, after a while, we got sick of, like, the daily negotiation of who had to be home in time to relieve the nanny. So like, you know, it fell to me and I started writing books instead of working for fortune. So I feel like the world is changing. And I do think people are kind of more open-minded about all this stuff than maybe they were 10, 20 years ago. Well, and I think Raina and I can answer that question for women and for ourselves. I mean, we're women in our mid-30s. We live in New York. We've been single for a while.

Like we have focused on our career and our friends and our travel and like building this life for ourselves. And I think that we can answer that question without looking at even stats based on what we see with our friend group. And one thing that really spoke to me in the book that I thought found was so fascinating was what the gender that is in the oversupply, what they kind of do when they, I guess, quote unquote, realize it. And with women, it almost kind of like attributed it to this rise of feminism and women kind of realizing like, I am single. I need to take care of myself and women become more successful. They build these great lives to themselves. And what you talked about with men was men when they realize there's too many men, they start to compete and make more money. So the gender that's kind of in the oversupply can rise to the top, I guess, in terms of their fulfillment as a single person. So I, I mean, I said that before.

I think I was, I was 27 and I thought I was going to maybe marry this guy and it didn't work out. And I worked at this job. I hated. And I was like, this is dumb. I'm destined for more. I want to build a better life for myself. And I went out my own freelance writing and it all kind of brought me to where I am today. So I think that I just loved reading that part of the book of like, not that, you know, maybe we have this light bulb moment or maybe we just realize it over time. But I think that the answer is like what Rain and I have done, you know, like where we're like, and then we kind of like turned the topic into a career and talking about dating. But it's, I love that, you know, women are, it's not like I'm settling for a life I don't want. It's kind of like

there's more than one way to be happy. Yeah, I don't want to like pretend that I came up with this idea that there's this tie-in between prevailing sex ratios and kind of a rise in feminism. There was a Harvard psychologist, Marsha Gutintag, who wrote about this a long time in the

1970s. And she actually died before her book came out. And I kind of feel like that's why you know, these ideas didn't really like she, you know, I mean, I'm a I'm an author, and I know how important it is to go out on the road and promote your book. And if you pass away before your book comes out, it kind of gets lost a little bit. So I just want to give her credit for being the first to talk about this. But she, you know, one of her arguments is that the rise of feminism in the 60s and 70s was a direct byproduct of lopsided sex ratios.

There were more of the younger women than there were of the older men. And her argument was that the sexual revolution. of the 60s and 70s was a byproduct of this imbalance. And the backlash to this imbalance was the feminist movement. And I firmly believe if Marsha Guten Tag was alive today, she would be attributing the rise of the Me Too movement to what we've been talking about, this kind of phenomenon of men exploiting the college gender gap. Did you say the name of the book, by the way?

Of Marsha Guten Tag's book. Yeah, the title of the book is Too Many Women. Too many women. Okay. I knew I read it, but I couldn't run the name of the book. I mean, it's a, it's a brilliant title. Yeah. And I like that you explore other social factors like the birth control pill and things like that, giving women different options and sort of changing the game. Yeah. So can I do an overly forced segue into my ideas on how women can beat the odds? Yeah. We want to hear. Yes, please. Okay. So the new book, Make Your Move is kind of, it kind of picks up where data dynamics left off. And it's really all about solutions and strategies for beating a dating market that is really stacked against women. And my core argument in Make Your Move is that we've kind of come to a point in time where women are kicking ass in education, sports, business, podcasts, politics, whatever.

this notion that we're going to tell women that they can be badasses and everything else, but they have to sit back and wait for a guy to ask them out or make a first move when it comes to dating. It doesn't really make any sense. And, you know, I'm a big theme of Make Your Move is kind of encouraging women to make the first move in convincing readers that this notion that men all live for the chase and we love having our advances rebuffed. and if a woman shows too much much interest in us, will be less interested in them. This is basically nonsense.

And men like women who like them. There are all these kind of really wonderful stories I tell in the book, and it's kind of grounded in the latest research on dating and how human beings connect socially. All these great stories of women who made the first moves with guys. the guys frequently had no fucking clue that the women had any interest in them whatsoever, because, as you know, guys are morons. And we, like, especially those young guys.

Yeah, well, I mean, also, like, all your shoe dangles and hair flips, like, we have no idea what that means. Right, right. Guys don't know when women are flirting with them, which is why women who make a more direct first move have such an advantage over women who kind of wait and wait and wait to be courted. Yeah, I mean, listen, I would rather, and we've talked about this recently, I'd rather make my intentions known with somebody and get rejected than sit around and

hope that somebody will come around. And I've been rejected recently. I've rejected my whole life by plenty of men. I've rejected plenty of men. But I'm never sorry that I did it because the alternative is what, wait around? Yeah, I know. I listened to your New Year's podcast and Reni, you were talking about like how 2020 was the year to like take your show.

You shoot your shot. And you had the story about the guy who you thought like, you know, there might be something real there. And it didn't work out. But the good news is you're not going to be like kicking yourself for the next year or 20 years about, oh, crap. What if I had said something to him? And, I mean, the advantage that men always have or traditionally have had is that, look, we may get shot down. But at least we have a chance with our first choice.

You know, if you're dating the old-fashioned way and you're kind of acting as a passive filter of male advances rather than saying, you know what, the guys who like me, I don't like them, but there is this guy over there who probably has no clue I like him. I'm just going to ask him out. And in my experience, you know, doing the research for the book and doing a little bit of early press for the book, I find that like if I, if I, ask women, okay, is there some guy in your daily life or your universe who you've ever wondered about dating? I mean, not everybody has that, has, says yes, but a lot of them do. And I'm like, well, why would you waste time with some complete stranger on Tinder? If there's actually a guy who you've wondered about in real life, who you have real life experiences with, and you already feel comfortable with, why not just ask him out? I love that.

I don't know that you really want the guy that you need to act like you hate him because that guy's probably a little self-loathing and probably not super stable in the first place. Like stable people like people that like them. You know, like it's so it's kind of like the act of I need to really play hard to get and act like I'm not interested. Like I don't know if that's even attracting the right energy anyway. Why not show somebody you like them?

Like somebody that hates that you like them is probably not a great person. anyway, they probably hate themselves. Yeah. I swear, the secret to men is that men like women who like them. But people, right? I like men. I like guys who like stable people. You like grandmas who like you too. Like, I mean, it's not just dating.

It's like everybody likes people who like them. And people feel more comfortable. Like if you, if you show interest in me, like, I'm going to be like more engaged. And there's this, there's been this kind of, I mean, like, every dating. book, every popular dating book that's been written over the past 40 years from the rules to ignore the guy, get the guy, has been kind of built on this premise that telling young women that the message they have to send to men is not interested means keep trying. And like, honestly, I don't think that was ever super helpful, but in the post Me Too world,

the idea that you're going to tell women to tell men like not interested means keep trying like I mean guys aren't look guys aren't perfect and you know we're learning the lessons of Me Too maybe not as fast as we should but we are learning and one of those lessons and I've talked to dating coaches and matchmakers about this and they all agree is that nowadays if a if you kind of play hard to get with a guy and seem disinterested, he's going to just assume you want to be left alone. As he should.

Leave me alone. I don't like you. I think that there's not a one-size-fits-one with dating. I think every person's different, right? And I think that there's a huge difference between playing the game and playing games. You know, you can act cool and just act like you've been here before without fucking with a person.

And yeah, I don't want a person to fuck with me. I don't find it attractive. I think people would healthy attachment styles. Don't want that. They don't find it fun. I think you hopefully age out of finding that attractive to begin with. You know, I mean, maybe that was like cute and sexy when I was 22. I don't find it attractive anymore.

I mean, Ashley always says that I like people that don't like me. I don't like people to fuck with me. I don't want it. I don't find it like fun. I don't find it like a good game, you know? I don't want it. Yeah. And also, I mean, just from a guy perspective, if a guy knows that you like him,

there's less of the peacocking and he's more comfortable. because like the way guys are wired, they're trying to get you to like them. So, and that leads to a lot of really annoying behavior. But if the guy already knows that you like him, he'll be, he'll be more relaxed and be more normal. Yeah.

Well, and I love that you said you were kind of, I think you were getting there, but this is on the book description. It's better to choose than to be chosen. And, you know, we have been driving this home for a while now of why should women build these great lives for themselves and work so hard? and choose all these things for themselves and work to get them,

but have to sit back and not be in the driver's seat when it comes to a huge part of your life, which is your relationship. So I just love that quote. But let's talk about this, get off the apps thing. I think it's funny in our email correspondence with you. I think you were like, in so many words, like, hey, so I really hate apps all night dating.

I just want to hear, I can't wait to hear what you have to sign. So I'm trying to be entertaining and I'm like, well, like, you know, what will they like? So, yeah, I mean, this is a. No, you email us back at midnight, which Ashley already loved. She loves somebody's awake and talking to her after hours. Honestly, the problem is that my dad wakes up at like 2 a.m. Yeah, John's living with his parents right now.

I'm not living with them. Helping. You're helping. No, I know. Once a month, my brother and I kind of tag team and we... No, we're just teasing. Okay, so, anyway, we interrupted you. Give us the whole spiel about dating apps, why you hate them.

Okay, okay. Well, I'm going to like, you know, turn it back on you guys a little bit. I'm going to have a little fun here, okay? I'm guessing you guys are like best friends. Yes, like you're... I don't really like each other that might. No, but you know. But you guys are best friends.

You have this relationship that probably everybody around you kind of thinks is really special, right? I think so, yeah. Yeah, no, they do. Okay. We're goals. Can you imagine going on a best friend app and finding a relationship anything like what you guys have today? I keep trying to get away from her and I can't know. No.

I don't even know you guys, but I am 100% sure that your relationship is grounded in in person, face-to-face. 100%. Yeah. Real life experiences, laughing together, drinking together. There's no way that you could kind of replicate that connection by trading carefully worded text messages back and forth to each other. Correct? Right.

Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. would you, if you're, you know, I don't assume everybody's looking for a life partner, but if you're using a dating app to find a life partner, why the fuck would you do anything different than what you've done when you got your best friend? I mean, why wouldn't you look for somebody? I mean, the human beings evolved as social animals. We bond through shared experiences. I am 100% certain you have shared experiences that are part of your life.

story. And the retelling and telling of those stories is kind of the mortar for deeper connections between you. Correct? Yeah. And I think people should be looking for similar things when it comes to a romantic partner. And this is why, you know, as I show in the book, there's research that the breakup rate for couples and meet online is significantly higher than for couples who meet at work or as neighbors or in church or at school. And it's no mystery. Why? Because if you actually know the person,

I listened to your interview with Nikki Glazer. And her anxiety level over first dates was like really, like, sad. I mean, I was like bothered by it. And but part of me, you know, you guys know how she's dating better than I would. But I have to assume she's dating online. And she's meeting guys. She's never talked to over the phone. has no prior experience with.

She has absolutely no idea who's going to walk through the door. And the thing about, you know, like the thing about online dating is that every first date is a blind date with a complete stranger. Now, like, I'm like 100 years older than you, so, but when I was in my 20s, like blind dates with complete strangers were rare. But now it's commonplace. And the thing to remember about blind dates with complete stranger is that everybody,

who knows that guy, you know, that online first date, everybody who knows him knows him better than you know him. Yes, my only point I find, I don't love online dating, I find it a means to an end, it's just a nice way to meet people. I'm not asking somebody to feel

the way that Ashley feels to me in a first or second interaction. I just find it to be a means to an end. I don't know. I know. I want to make it clear that I realize not everybody uses a dating app to find a life partner.

Like if you're looking for a hookup or a friend with benefits or even a friend without benefits, like there are lots of reasons to use dating apps that have nothing to do with like the quest for a husband or a life partner or a spouse. What I'm saying, though, is that I just have talked to so many women and seen so much research that and I actually think it's gotten worse during COVID times where the level of unhappiness with online dating is just extraordinary. Well, and so we, this is something our listeners know about me. I've gone on so many dates. I've gone in so many first dates, a handful of second dates, and I've never gone on a second date from an app. So even every single time I've even gone on a second date with a guy

that we met in some other way. Even if we, even if he slid into my DMs. So it's not how I've ever had success in all the years that I've done it. And there's a reason for this. And this is what you're saying. And I just also want to touch on Nikki because I feel like Nikki even actually validated your point. And her point was that she,

doesn't really do the apps because of her anxiety, and she would rather pick somebody that she's at least seen on, like, TV or something. So she has a level of familiarity, and she said how they move, how they talk. So she validated it. She was like, I hate this thought of a complete stranger. I want to have seen them on a show or something. And that's why she slides into the DMs of these people who are a bachelor, which I get because I show up, these guys show up to meet me,

and I hate their voice. I hate the way they walk. You know, it's like, it's so accurate. So I remember you talking about the voice thing. And to me, as an old, guy, the whole idea of going out and a date with a guy you've never even talked with over the phone just sounds

baffling. Yeah, I mean, look, I don't do it. I'm not making a case for it. I don't do it. I mean, I think you guys know this. There's so much you can learn about a human being based just on the intonations and their voice. The cadence their voice. The cadence their voice. And even better, just being in their physical presence, like the body language.

Absolutely. There's just, there's so much to be learned about other human beings talking to them, being in their physical presence. And the idea that, I'm not, I'm not blasting you here, I know, I know this is commonplace, but the idea that people would want to go out on a blind date with a complete stranger who they have, no, like they've never really interacted with, even on the phone, it just seems strange to me. Now, I know, like, I'm an old fogey in that way, but obviously there are couples who are not very happy lives, and I'm not, I'm not dismissing that.

I'm just saying this sounds difficult and challenging and not like an efficient way to go about things. And the other thing I'd point out is that you would think if two compatible people meet and they meet on an app, like the outcome would be the same regardless of whether they met at work or they met playing rec soccer together or something like that. But the research on this shows that actually, how we meet can have a big impact on how the relationship moves forward.

And if you, I mean, think about, you know, I'm thinking about this from a woman's perspective, and you can correct me and fact check me here. But most of the women I've interviewed or spoke to have said, look, a first date from an app begins with a crap load of fact checking just to make sure that, you know, he really is. Robert the Hanson fund manager and not Billy Bob the married ex-con or something like that. And so there's all this online research. And then there's kind of the escape plan. Is that fair? Like you know, like the like, you know, like you tell your friends where you're going to be. You have some idea of like if it's not going well, how you're going to get out of the whole thing.

Well, if that's your mindset going into the first date, the odds of you falling in love or in like or even in like, like pretty low. Because you're, there was a woman I interviewed for Make Your Move who described online dating to me as a doubters game. And I actually thought this was a really interesting

turn of phrase because what she was saying is she, she had all this experience with guys blatantly lying to her like on dating apps, that she would go into every first date trying to find all the holes in their stories.

And as you can imagine, that didn't lead to a whole lot of second dates if you're just, you know, like, yeah. And she's now engaged to a guy who a friend set her up with. And she told me that on her first date with this guy, she didn't even Google the guy. She just knew that her friend would never set her up with a guy who was bad, who was untrustworthy, it was unkind. And people feel unaccountability. Sorry, I interrupted you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I agree.

Like if you're accountable to other people, you're going to behave differently. Absolutely. And in the case of this woman, she was just kind of more inclined to find the positive. And she said to me that this was like the closest experience to love at first sight she'd ever had. And it was just because of her mindset going into the first date. Yeah, I totally agree with all this. And this is, I mean, I'm loving that we're talking about the reason why I have never gone in a second day from an hour. and why it's never worked out because it's not just random.

You know, there's reasoning behind this. So I'll give you one statistic. The marriage rate for people who meet at work, for couples of meet at work, the marriage rate is something like 25%, which is the highest of anything. And like, and this is the least surprising statistic I write about in Make Your Move because it makes perfect sense. Because if you've worked with somebody for a year, you know their sense of humor, you know if they're a good guy or a bad guy. You know if they're trustworthy or not trustworthy. You've had

shared experiences with them both fun and not so fun. So by the time you get to the first date, you already know whether you're compatible or not. So it's like it's no surprise to me that couples who meet at work. And obviously like from, you know, from television and movies are all these phenomenal, like they, like if, if Jim and Pam on the office had met on an app, like like like Like, you know, that would have been like the most boring first thing. Oh my gosh. Yes, it would have. Yeah.

And I think the stakes are not, I think the stakes are not as high for an online date, right? You go out on a date with somebody on an online date and they, I don't know, make out with you and never talk to you again. What do they care? They're never going to see you or talk to you again. If you treat your coworker like that, you treat your friend's friend like that. Right. Right. Then you're actually on the hook for that behavior. And I don't think that everybody just behaves well because, like, they might work with you or they know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody.

But I think it increases the probability that they will be decent. Right. but I'm a big believer in this thing called the beautiful mess effect. Have I heard this expression before? It's anything. Basically, it's like something, it's something related to

Brunei Brown's whole like take on daring greatly and taking chances in life. And, you know, there's research showing that the people who are willing to take a chance and, like, you know, tell a friend they're in love with them, that

it kind of engenders this feeling of warmth and positivity. in the person on the receiving end. And what you might perceive as kind of weakness in you is perceived as courage in the other person. Okay. And when you take these kinds of chances, particularly with people you know,

that the reaction is almost always better than you expect it's going to be. I love this. Just like DM that friend. Tell your friend. I think John, correct me for wrong, but it doesn't have to be. your colleague or even your close friend. This can, it's something you know.

Like, I think that's that's the bar. It's just someone you know. It could be like, it could be the cute cop that you banter with at the deli every morning. You know, just somebody you know and you have shared experiences with, you know, and you've, again, I so believe that spending time in somebody's physical presence, reading their body language, hearing the inflections and their voices, that's going to tell you so much more than spending two weeks, trading text messages. over Tinder. Yes. And I love what you all said there. You spend like the first hour trying to figure out,

are you lying to me? Is this stuff true? Yes, exactly. Yeah. Like, yeah. There's a curfew now. So then you're just like, well, dates over, you know?

It's a pandemic. I just figured out you're a real person. And now it's last call. Yeah. So like, I mean, the whole point of make your move is trying to figure out, like, how do I make life

or how do we make dating easier for educated women who are, who may be struggling. And getting off the apps is one of the strategies I talk about in the book. I think it's just, you know, I've never been big on them. I've, you know, it's not my preferred way to date anybody. I don't need to say this for the 15th time. But, you know, it's just been harder during the pandemic. So, you know, especially for Pete Rain is just so good at just walking up to people and, you know, it's harder. There's not as many opportunities. I don't have people to walk up to

anymore. Yeah. So. Yeah. No, I get it. And something I talk about. in the book is obviously during COVID times. There are some people who the only kind of dating they're going to want to do is video dating. And I understand that. And I don't want to give off the impression that the entire book is negative on online dating. There are actually some niche dating apps

that I like a lot and I talk about in the book. But I still have this kind of broader general take that a lot of singles, a lot of women would be better off if they kind of took a break from the apps. And there's a chapter in the book that I call the Make Your Move Offline Dating Challenge, which is kind of like a step-by-step guide to taking a break from the apps and meeting people in the real world. I love that. And this was in the book description.

It says the first move doesn't have to be a big move. Do you want to elaborate that a little bit? Is it just? Yeah, yeah. So I have a, here's a story. So there's a young woman I know who, you know, many moons ago, used to be our Saturday night babysitter when she was in college, and I was telling her about the book. And just as like a little context and background, I mean, she's, she's definitely attracted, but the big thing about her is that

she has this ginormous personality, like she's a real cut up. And like my kids loved her. But as you guys know, like some men are like intimidated by the whole extrovert thing. So I was telling her about make your move. And she told me the story. story about how she ended up with her current boyfriend and they were at a party together. And they were talking and having a good time. But it was just clear to her that he was a little anxious and wasn't sure if she was just being nice or that kind of thing. So she just blurted out, hey, are you going to ask for my number?

And that was like, that was how they began. I love it. He didn't grab her his butt or anything like that. or like, you know, he, I mean, all she did is say, hey, you're going to ask for my number. And so, so I don't, I mean, I know, I know, like, the rule followers out there say, no, we don't want to. I know. But, but the idea is that, like, a woman who makes a first move, it's like she's, you know,

like chasing the guy or, or she's kind of making a fool of herself or something like that, and that guys don't like that. I'm not, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm just talking about. doing something that opens the door wide enough so that my young friend's boyfriend, now boyfriend, felt comfortable walking through. Sure. Directness with subtlety.

Just show me an interest. Yeah. And we always say this. You can do these things that are against the rules. We're not rules, girls, clearly. That goes out saying. But you can make the first move. You can sleep with somebody the first night, whatever.

It's how you act and your level of, like, security. confidence. You know, like, I think that like the rules, like, now that we know more, were probably developed for, like, anxious women and avoidant men. You know, like, I think that, like, if we're just talking about people that are stable and secure, it's fine if a woman shows interest. Like, you know what I mean? And it's not that you're standing there, telling a guy, like, so I'm really looking to, like, get married and have kids within the year. But it's, there's nothing wrong with, hey, are you going to ask for my number, eye contact, smiling. You know, we had Matthew Bussie on and he walked us through.

pre-COVID, right before COVID, how to act when you see that person you're physically attracted to in a bar. And it's not like, hey, want to go fuck. Yeah. Again, the first move doesn't have to be some big move. But the important thing that I always like try to remind women is, like, look, you don't have to take my word for it that men like women who like them. There is a crap load of research showing that men want women to make the first move. And that all these kind of ideas that women have about men needing the chase, it's all based on kind of like crap science that was put out there by men, by evolutionary biologists who actually got it wrong.

And everything that they've written over the past 20 years is now being proven wrong by female biologists at UCLA and other schools who are showing that this, This whole notion that women are kind of hardwired to be passive filters of male advances, that that is utter bullshit. Yay, yeah, yeah, let me hear it. And this notion that men are hunters and women were gatherers, like women hunted. You know, like, this is wrong. One of the studies that a lot of evolutionary biology, these ideas that are kind of behind the rules, One of the studies that all this is based on, you know, actually involve fruit flies.

Now, this whole notion that you're going to base, you're going to decide how human beings are going to behave based on the mating strategies of fruit flies is pretty stupid. But even then, the original fruit fly study, like there's this, there's this professor at UCLA who redid the original study that Robert Trivers, who's like the preeminent evolutionary biologist of his generation. Like he based all of his theories about human mating on this fruit fly study. So this woman, Patricia Gowdy at UCLA, redid the initial fruit fly study because all the ideas behind it didn't mesh with her own research. And it turns out that the female fruit flies, when she redid it, advanced towards the male fruit flies just as often.

It's all bullshit. Basically, the guy, you know, this guy, you know, who did the study in the 1940s, essentially either he was completely incompetent or he made the whole thing up and a whole generation of evolutionary biologists basically believed it and developed theories around it. I mean, people aren't dynamic.

There's not one way to get a person and people evolve. And, I mean, if being passive and sitting back and playing this game hasn't worked for you, then why not shoot your shot and try? The only other thing I'd mention is, like, my ideas about women, you know, making the first move go beyond dating. Like, I'm all in favor of women proposing to men as well. Let's not get carried away. Actually, there's this great story I tell in the book about Elizabeth Warren.

We've had her on the show. Did she tell you about how she proposed her husband? No, but she proposed to her husband. I know that? Yeah. I think I might have read that in your book. You know who else? I'm telling you.

John, we've had on her name is Katie Sterino. She's an incredible entrepreneur, blogger, and she, her husband, took her last name. For real. Like, it's not a joke. She calls him Mr. Storino, and it's like, that's his, you know, his last name. I'm all in favor of flexible gender roles. Like I said, my wife is actually the, she's the chief of the criminal division for the U.S. Attorney's Office here in New York.

She sounds hot. She's really hot. Yeah, no, no. I mean, she does things like put Jeffrey Epstein in jail. So I just think we all need to be more flexible and open-minded when it comes to this kind of stuff. And there's no rule that says that guys can't be the lead parent or that women can't be the breadwinner or that women can't ask men to marry them. Yeah. Don't be a passive participant in your own life.

Yeah. Yeah. Being a driver's right. And then I meant to ask you this. I'm just out of my own curiosity. Have you kept up with kind of the demographics of. of the gender ratio since 2015? I don't know.

I feel like maybe New York's gotten a little bit better for women. I have two answers to this. One, if you look at the national college data, it's actually gotten a little worse. Like last year, there were 36% more women than men who graduated from college. And I think when I did the original datonomics research, it was 33%. But you're asking more about the post-college stuff. And I have to say that I'm frustrated because, of all the many bad things that have happened in Washington over the past few years, I realize the

complaints I'm about to make is pretty minor. But the Census Bureau eliminated the American fact finder website that I had been using for most of my demographic data. I think it was some kind of a stupid budget cut. So I don't have an answer to your question about whether the college grad gender ratio is any better or worse in New York than it used to be. And those numbers are out there, but I would have to hire an expert to dig through the raw data. And this wasn't a big part of make your move. So. But I'd say with the rise of social media and things like that, more people are just finding jobs. They don't need a college degree for. Well, and I think that women have gone out west. I mean, that was part of the book. I had three girlfriends all moved to Denver within a year from

New York City. They all got boyfriends. You know, I think there was a stat of like... Because of my book? No, no. Maybe. Let me ask them. You know what it was? Maybe. But we, you know, there was this big, I feel like, mass exodus of women moving to place to Colorado. And I don't know the data. And I'm upset that they changed that for your sake too. But I think that people have taken a little bit of heed. And I do remember my best guy friend moving to New York, um, 2014, you know, and, it was like this insane playground that I feel like he started to notice a little bit less of. And I don't know. I think I feel like men aren't as much of pieces of shit here as they used to be. I've had a little bit better luck. I've heard about women really taking this in a consideration where they move.

And like I said, moving out west and things like that. So I would assume it might have shifted a little bit. Yes. I'll be interested to hear your take on this. But my sense is that me too is part of the story of what you're talking about. Some of the behavior I wrote about in dataomics just doesn't fly anymore. Do you agree or you think that's part of it? Probably.

I mean, I would say that men have a healthier fear in them. And I think that, you know, hopefully women are just raising better men. Yeah, but I think women, like, perhaps it was your book and just other factors, like, women started to talk about this. You know, I've noticed over, I guess, probably the last five years of this is not the place for us, you know, like really, we're moving or we're going to, going to move somewhere else and, like, realizing that it doesn't really, if you really want to find a husband, it doesn't make sense to move to New York and work in fashion necessarily. So I think a lot of this, like,

sex in the city, moved to New York to find love, started to be debunked, you know, with the help of resources like your book. And so that's, I think, I totally agree in the Me Too movement and just how men act in general. But I do think that I think the demographics might have changed shift a little bit. So anyway. Just my take. Yeah. Well, I'm sure that people will want to read your books. We'll want to see more of

your work. So let's tell people where they can find you on Instagram, your website, your books. Give it to all of it. We're going to read you their Instagram. Remember? We're his Instagram. You're going to coach me on Instagram. Yeah. Yeah. So my new book, Make Your Move, is basically available everywhere from you know, books a million, Amazon, Walmart, Barnes & Noble, basically any major bookseller you can buy and make your move.

The book goes on sale February 2nd, which also, it also happens to be my birthday, which I hope is like some, I hope it's some positive. February is a big month for us. We love it. My dog's birthday is the fourth. Yes. Our anniversary, the anniversary podcast.

I moved to New York. I grew up thinking Groundhog's Day. It was like some really important holiday because it's my birthday. But anyway. But we're huge February fans. Yeah. Okay. Well, me too.

Can't recommend February. I love February. It's so much better than March. Right. Yeah. So, yeah. So a book comes out. Mikey Move comes out February 2nd.

If you want to find me, you can find me on Johnberger.com. Both of my names are spelled oddly. It's a J-O-N and then B-I-R-G-E-R dot com. One thing I do, if any of your listeners are interested, I do these kind of, I'll do like a virtual book club Q&A. So if your book club wants to read and make your move, I will log on through FaceTime or Zoom or something. And, and.

Can the three of us do that together? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing. So you can get more information on that on my website. Okay.

Amazing. Awesome. Well, thank you. This is really enlightening. Your book was really phenomenal. I can't wait to get into the next one. in February. And my, my college kids will be glad that, like, I didn't embarrass

myself. You didn't really have to talk about my sex life or anything. Do you want to talk about your sex life? I really don't. Oh, my God. Time's up. He's like, although, now that you mention it, my wife and I roleplay, from what we know about her, I'm sure she's great and best. She brings a baton and where's the cop hat?

There's no Amazon position in my house. Oh, my dad listened to last week's episode, too, and he goes, I turned it off halfway through the end. I don't need to hear about you and Ashley's vaginas. And I was like, don't listen then. Who told you to be here? He's heard about them so many times by now. Okay.

Well, John, thank you so much. You're welcome. Thanks. All right. Well, guys, hope you enjoyed our chat with John. We love doing it with you. Love doing everything with you guys. Okay. You know what?

All right. Well, we stay. And you know where to find us. Girls Gotta Eat Podcast.com. Girls got to eat podcast on Instagram. Ash Hess, Raina. , dot Greenberg on Instagram.

Girls underscore got to eat on Twitter and YouTube. com slash girls got to eat. That's it, guys. Have a great week. Bye.