Girls Gotta Eat - Why Are We Bad at Dating? feat. Mark Groves

Episode Date: July 18, 2022

We're so excited to welcome a much-requested, long-awaited guest on the show -- Mark Groves! As a human connection specialist and incredible voice in the relationship analysis space, we tapped into him to ask a burning question: Why are people so bad at dating? We also discuss finding your true self in a culture where so much value is placed on relationships, being a people pleaser and setting boundaries, the only way you can get back with an ex, and more. Before Mark joins us, we're recapping the second half of our trip, a masturbation revelation, and some fresh recs. Hope you enjoy! Follow Mark on Instagram @createthelove and check out the Mark Groves Podcast. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit our website for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Shop Vibes Only. Thank you to our partners this week: Babbel: Visit babbel.com/gge for up to 60% off your subscription. Nutrafol: Get $15 off your first month's subscription plus free shipping at nutrafol.com/gge. Osea: Get 10% off your first order with promo code GGE at oseamalibu.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

If they're not looking for what you're looking for, then that's actually valuable information. But most of us date from the place of needing to be chosen. Back to another episode. If girls got to eat, are you okay? I'm fine. I guess. We've been back in America for an hour. Yeah.

We landed and came here so we couldn't wait to spend more time together. The day before the episode drops, we're back in the studio, back from Europe. Well, I really haven't seen you that much. Yeah. I didn't see you in Portugal. I'm all hooked up. I didn't see right in Portugal. People are they in a fight?

I flew there to see you. But we're like, see you. We are happy to be back in our apartments. I just got a new kitchen. I'm like, oh my gosh. My kitchen was from like 1970. So I was like, this is a huge huge news. Thank you.

Talk about it. Oh, my God. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I told my landlords, everything is gross. And I'll split a renovation. And they're like, we'll just get you new appliances because you should have asked three years ago, bitch.

It is so... They were just waiting me out. Well, that's what I said. That was my theory. Raina was like, they've been so great about it. They're just offering to do it. I'm like, they're probably shocked.

You haven't asked. They're probably like, how has she been using this shit? How is it, A, still working. B, this little fancy bitch is... How is she even... There's my soup. Keep this in. Just so you guys know,

we took a pause so that Ashley could get Second Avenue deli soup. She's just leaning over the table, eating soup and hollabred. This is so funny watching you eat soup. Who knew? This is the real reversal of the rolls. Who knew?

Who's to say? But anyway, okay, so, yeah, my air conditioning units are from like 1970. They're yellow. They don't work. They make so much noise. They're disgusting. It's a billion degrees in New York.

So they sent me new air conditioning units, new kitchen. I'm replacing the cabinets and the little knobs and everything and it's just going to look so good. I'm so excited. So excited. Having a new apartment.

I'm very thrilled. Yes. We had such a good trip and we'll finish talking about it. it ended on a weird note. We'll talk about that too. But I was so happy to get back into my apartment. Like I just, I feel really at home. I really, you know, I'm so big on like, love where you live. And regardless of how I feel about this neighborhood, sometimes I just felt really at home in my apartment. Got my dad, convinced my dad to come to bring his little back tomorrow, offered him some cash.

I was like, he won't take it. You were like, yes, he will. And I was like, if someone who knows your dad better than you do, He took him He took my... You know, it's like, I don't have kids. Like, they step in. They want to watch Azul. They've had Azul this whole time. And my dad just loves to like come up here and get him and take a day trip.

And they were going to come up Wednesday. My parents were going to come up and just worked out for him to come. My dad to come tomorrow and offered him some cash to expedite his will here. Well, it makes everybody happy. I mean, your dad's so happy with him. Azul's so happy there. So, I mean, listen, it's a good babysitting situation. He's just retired.

He's like, what else is he doing? doing. He's like, he does a lot, actually. He does a lot. He actually does a ton. He works harder than any of us. We don't really know what he does. He told me. I know what he does. Oh, yeah, you talked to him more than me. He gave me a list of 25 things. I was like, you could do all that. You could do that. You could do that. But I, yeah, I cannot wait to see Azul. I missed him. That was like my main thing I wanted to come back to. Well, I can't wait to see him too. I was like, we walked, you know, I knew that we were going to have a good flight today because we walked onto the the tarmac and the plane next to us was Azul. It said fly as well. And I just knew it was like a

good omen. Fly Azul. Asole. Asole has his own jet. We don't. Kylie and Travis. Dog does. We're just going to get this out of the way really quickly and then we're going to get back to the fun stuff. But unfortunately, it is with a heavy heart that we will be moving our five shows in the late summer, early fall. So Philly, Nashville, Charlotte, Atlanta, and Boston. Unfortunately, we will be canceling those dates and moving those. We'll, it will explain why, but obviously we are, we're devastated. We hate letting you guys down. It's the last thing in the world we ever want to do. We know you guys look forward to these shows and so do we. So we are going to reschedule them. Yes, of course. God, I feel like I'm going to like COVID flashbacks.

You know, there were some circumstances out of our control that had us in a place where we needed to rework one of the tours, like one of the parts of it, the timing of them and everything. And we just decided to postpone them and do a really big, grandiose full tour where we announce all these cities at the same time. And, you know, there's some factors here at play. We had a lot of conversations with our team and between the two of us. And we hate this more than anything. I mean, those were some of the places we were looking forward to coming to the most. So we feel so heartbroken for you guys that bought tickets and we're looking forward to this and we're traveling for this. And we promise that we're rescheduling these, but you will get your money back immediately. This isn't a like,

hold your money for the next show type of thing. So I think, Raina, you might know you're getting an email on Tuesday. Tomorrow. If you're listening to Monday, you'll get this email on this information on Tuesday. We've made sure that that's going to happen. So hopefully there won't be any issues there. But we really do deeply apologize to you guys. Like this pains us as much as it does you, to those of you, the bought tickets. And we're going to reschedule these. and it's going to be bigger and better and incredible. Again, there was just some reasons why we don't need to get into all them, but we needed to just push these five back.

Yeah. So you have a huge apology from both of us. We really hate this, but we promise to announce a big tour with lots of shows. You guys have plenty of notice. And like Ashley said, we're going to give you your money back immediately, so we're not holding on your money. And we can't wait to get back there and see you guys. I'm sorry if you made plans, but we will be there.

We'll be back. We love you. Thank you for your support. you know, we hate doing this. So you should see those emails come in tomorrow on Tuesday and that refund. And if something happens, contact the venue. But we are assured that that will happen. So we love you guys. Thanks for the support. And we will see you soon. Yes. So we're back. Yes, we're back. We parted ways in Europe for a little bit. We got back together in Europe. We didn't see each other. So we left you guys last. We were in Barcelona on my birthday recording. And,

And we parted ways that day. Raina went to Italy. I went to Portugal. I had a little travel snafu. Travel is insane right now. My situation wasn't nearly as bad as other people. I had a flight get canceled. Couldn't get my bag.

Whatever. All was rectified. But it's just crazy out there. Yeah. If you're traveling to Europe, I mean, I don't know that you're following the news as much as we did because we were there.

But there's tons of strikes going on across all of Europe in lots of airports, cancellations, baggage issues, airport control strikes. So just check the news if you're traveling. It was wild. It was really crazy. The timing of us leaving certain places was pretty wild because they started like canceling stuff and like going on track like right after we left.

It was wild. Yeah. I just feel like it's trying to outrun the next bad thing that's going to happen. But I can like share a little bit about my part of that trip and then Raina can share hers. Oh, also we don't need to like leave you guys in the cliffhanger of anything that happened. Basically we like came back together in Lisbon. I just got sick.

I know I sound a little congested right now. I took multiple COVID tests and I was negative. I just, I don't know what I had. It was awful. I don't know if it was like a bug or like a two, three day virus, but I was in bed for two days when we were supposed to be running around Lisbon. And it was awful. I mean, I'm better.

I was thankful for the trip. It wasn't the way I wanted to end the trip. It fucking sucked. But it sucks to be sick and be like just cooped up in a hotel room for two days, especially while your best friend is there and you want to be doing stuff. but I physically could not leave the bet. Yeah, and you were really wonderful and apologetic. And I mean, there's nobody that wants to like have plans more than Ashley.

Yeah, I know. Like I, like we went to this one place for brunch. It was just too crowded. I had a backup place for brunch. We go there. We're sitting down. I was like, I can't be here. Like I have to leave right now.

We have to cancel my food. I'm going to pass out at this table. And that's not going to be a good look for everybody. They're going to be like, she has COVID. Lisbon is hard to be sicking because it was so hot. And it's like San Francisco. everything is straight up a hill. So it's not like an easy city to walk around. And if you're feeling like run down, it's a lot. Yes. It might have just been like a severe dehydration. I mean, again,

I'm not sure and I'm coming out of it. But it was, yeah, so I was sick and rena. It was solo again. That was supposed to be our like reconnection. But before that, I was in the south of Portugal. The area is called the Algarve and like Faro district. I actually stayed in this cute little town that I loved called Carviero. I am probably butchering that. I tried so hard though. but Carviero, Carvoero, however you want to pronounce it. That's actually, that's where I stayed. And I'll post more wrecks on my Instagram. People ask me for travel wrecks.

So I will do all of that for that area of Portugal. My best guy friend from high school has a house there. And I was just with him the whole time. And it was honestly just such an incredible trip. It was like one of my favorite, favorite things. It's so beautiful down there, like went to the beaches I wanted to go to. We spent a day in Lagos and went to these amazing dinner. and had the best seafood and just like truly had the best time.

And I mean, he is someone that I don't see a lot. He lives in Prague and I guess Portugal now on the side. And it was just, it was wonderful. And he has a wife and kids. And so it was so great to see them. So I truly just had the best time. I felt like so genuinely like happy in my soul. Also just like being by the beach, swimming in the water.

That's just what feeds my soul to be, sounds so fucking cheesy. But it was really nice. It was really wonderful. So I loved that trip so much, driving around with him, listening to all the music from high school. We were just playing Cisco's first solo album, just like, man, remember how hard this slapped? He has this Jeep. He took the doors off, the top off. I'm like, this is the best day of my life.

Like, we did the beach, we did this incredible lunch that someone sent me a recommendation for. And now we're just like driving back in the Jeep listening to Unleash the Dragon. I was like, I'm peak happy. Yeah. But I had to say, like I posted pictures of us. on my Instagram. Mm-hmm. I can't believe, like, I said that he was my friend in the caption.

I said, forever friend. Doesn't that sound like such a friend? Such a friend. Listen, he's hot and people wanted it for you. I guess people really want it for me, but I, you know, people just went crazy in the comments. Like, is this a hard launch? Is this a soft launch? Oh, my God, he's not tagged.

Who is this guy? And of course, some people were like, it's her friend. Like, we know this. Read the comments. It's her friend. Or, like, listen to the podcast. Or, you know, I'd post him on my Instagram story a month or so ago when he was here, which I'm not expecting people to keep tabs on that. But regardless, like, I just think

it's so funny. And you were like, people don't read the caption. I'm like, that's fine. If you see a photo of two people on Instagram and you don't read the caption, you think to yourself, they're probably together and you keep it moving. But to write a comment. And not read the caption. The answer is in the caption. I know. Like, just again, I'm not, I just think it's funny. We're excited. Just a life hack for you guys. If you're ever wondering, maybe it's right there for me. People get excited. If they jump the gun, they can't read. They don't have time. But even like my friends.

Like Oscar just texted me. And he's like, who was that guy? And I was like, oh my God. No one's reading anymore. You're like, I spend time with you. You don't even think I would have mentioned if I had a boyfriend. It's just funny that people, I think they just do want it so bad. Like they were like, oh my God, she's had a secret boyfriend this whole time.

Which also like I wouldn't do. That could have happened. Like that, I would feel so deceitful if that would be so weird. We actually talked about that in Barcelona the day before we left. We were talking about like hard launching, soft launching. and I was like, I'm never going to launch again. Like, I'm just never doing it. And you were like, I think it's nice to do it.

Like, I think that you really would absolutely do it. But also, like, I wouldn't be lying about being single if I was a secret boyfriend. It's just about like, we tell you guys everything about our lives. It's crazy. Ashley, you told me that you were a personal story. You weren't sure you were going to share on the podcast. And I was like, since when? Since when are we not going to share a story on the podcast?

All right. Well, I'll share it now. I'm so excited. Something happened in Portugal. Okay. before you got there in Lisbon. Okay. This is crazy for me, you guys.

Just everybody, we're going to, I'm going to share it with everybody at the same time. I, this is not that big a deal, but it felt really big deal on me. I masturbated, acoustic, no toy, and got off for the first time ever. I felt like a legend. I'm weird to say. Listen, I don't want to steal your thunder, but I masturbated on the plane today. What? Standing up in the bathroom. Listen, people can do it. Oh my God. People can do it. I'm so proud of you. I am so proud of you for sharing your truth on the podcast. I mean, I didn't know that you had never gotten off just doing it to yourself. Is that like a weird thing to admit? I mean, I just know it's a good thing to mix. I think a lot of people have a hard time masturbating. I don't think it's a hard thing to admit. I've said this before. I was like a little bit late to the masturbation game and then like I got into sex toys and stuff like that. And then I just always kind of deferred to them. I touch myself.

in the bedroom a lot. You know what I mean? Like during sexual situations. Oh, yeah. Like I, you put on a show. Yeah, I put on a show and it feels good. Like, so I guess technically there's certain times when I'm, what I'm doing with my hands is like led me to orgasm with a guy.

Like, you know what I mean? Like if you're doing doggy and you're like rubbing your own clip. You know what I'm saying. Uh-huh. But I just never really went manual. I mean, I guess I never really thought about it that deeply when you said that you'd never done it. Because like when I think about it, I started masturbating.

I was like really young. and I certainly wasn't going to buy a sex toy at that age. Like, the only option was my hand. Yeah. So I never really thought about it. And it does take some work. Yeah. I don't know.

Like, I'm surprised you do it because you say that you're a lazy masturbator, but I like the experience of it. I'm going to tell you guys what got me so turned on. And this is not a plug for vibes only, but it was. My job is like on the floor. I was so many questions. I was editing, you know, I do a final pass on these stories, all of them. And it was editing one of these stories.

and it was two girls. I'm reading with your own hand to lesbian porn. I can't believe this is happening, you guys. This is my dream. Are you mean? It is so good. That's why I told you. I felt like the story was really personal.

For years, I love lesbian porn. She can't relate to it. Like, this is crazy. I know. What caused, did you have your vibrator? You brought it on the trip, right? Yeah. And it just, it was dead.

Like, it wasn't charged. And so you were like, this is all I have. I got to do with my finger. Did it take you a long time? It took me a minute. It took longer than like it normally takes you. But did you like enjoy the experience of it. Yeah. I felt like really empowered. Oh my God. I can't believe it. Windows open. Do you feel like you're going to do it again? Yeah. I mean, here's here's the difference. I was already so turned on reading this, editing it. Like I hope you guys like it. It's going to be like a part two of like these two girls that go on vacation. They're going to like a beach vacation. I don't know what it was. I just got.

really into it. But my point is, like, I was already really turned on by it, by the story. I just kind of immersed myself in it when I was editing it. But, like, I can get a vibrator out and go in cold and orgasm. Like, totally. Like, yes. So the only time I think that I would do that is if I'm already turned on. So I think that it's easier to, like, if you're, like, edging yourself a little bit, like you're editing a story. Like, I used to love to read porn. I like, I like, I like to read erotic stories. And so, like, it's much easier to masturbate with your hand and doing that because there's, like, you're, you're, mentally stimulated, you're not just physically stimulated. So the vibrator is physical stimulation,

which is fantastic. I know some people have a really hard time getting off. But the mental stimulation is great. That's why I like the app, because the audio is in your ear. I am so proud of you. Like, do you think you're going to keep doing it? I mean, I think I would do it. I really felt very empowered by it. Like, I felt like this is really nice thing to be able to do to really know what it takes. Because it takes a minute. You're like undercover boss. You're like, I'm going to do every job in this company. Sometimes I feel like guys want to get you off with their fingers.

I love it. And sometimes I feel like I stop them and why move on to something else because it's... Oh, really? Not always. Not always. No, they definitely have. But sometimes I'm like, oh, it's taking a minute. Especially if it's not when I know that well. Like, that guy in Greece started to do that and I was like, why don't we just... I have to be very turned on, but then I can totally

get off from it. I totally can too. But I'm just kind of like, man, are you tired? You know, like this... So it was kind of nice to do it myself. Yeah. Undercover her boss. That's hysterical. I'm just like, is this like a crazy thing to be this old and I've never done that? But you figure out what you like.

And I just, I don't know. I'm a big fan of like having a vibrator nearby most of the time. You know what I mean? And maybe when I was younger, I just, I don't think so. It depends on the experience you want to choose. I mean, like I like to masturbate when I get high at night and when I'm high, I can masturbate for longer. So I don't like to use the vibrator because it gets me off too fast.

so I like a finger. Yeah. Because we were in a girl's trip once, and I feel like it was split down the middle because our one friend, remember, she just was like, oh, I just had to go mastery really quick. Like, she was like, I know exactly what I need with her hands, you know. Like she was like, I need to do a quick Pilates and masturbate and I'll be good for the day. Remember we were so hungover. It was my birthday. Yeah. And I think the rest of the house was kind of, it was like a house divided in terms of people who

can get themselves off, you know, alone or like with a toy only. I have a masturbation thing to tell you later too. It wasn't that I masturbated on the plane. That's just a bonus. But I'm so proud. Why were you turned on to the plane? Watching bridesmaids? I haven't. I can't.

We'll talk about it because I gave you a very good movie rack and I looked over and you were watching the same movie. You've probably seen a thousand times. I will tell you I've never watched brides all the way through. I just, I don't think I have. There was like scenes I saw today that I haven't seen. I never saw it all the way through. Oh, that's crazy.

I've probably seen it 30 times all the way through. It's amazing. It's a perfect movie. It really is a perfect movie. That is wild. I'm trying not to judge you right now. Oh, whatever. The wedding's not my favorite scene also. It ends kind of too much. Whatever. I mean, I love the movie. When Wilson Phillips sings, hold on. You know, a lot of movies, they just do too much at the end. Yes. Again, love bridesmaids, love it. It's like one of my true faves, but like, I don't know, it was a little much at the end. Was she really like to cancel her wedding the day of her wedding? Less of that and more just the wedding. Like, it just looked crazy. crazy with the neon and everything.

It was just crazy. Yeah. Just felt like too much. She's editing her wedding dress the day of the wedding and stuff. It's not. You're right. They did a little too much. Well, too much.

Anyway, I don't like when you sit behind me on planes because you can always see what I'm doing. I like to sit behind you on a plane. I know you're going to get up and go to the bathroom, take photos of me sleeping. You took one of me sleeping. It was so unflattering. I'm going to about to wear a mask back on the plane after seeing that photo. So while you were. with your childhood best friend, now lover that you have launched hard on Instagram.

People are like marry this man. I'm like, he is a wife. Someone else already did. Someone else did. And had two of his babies. Yes. Are his kids hot? Ray one of them? Stop. They're young. Oh, they're young. Okay. It's funny because like they're two boys and they're just like growing up before our eyes, you know? And it's just funny when you're friends with somebody when you were teenagers to see him as like a father. I mean, it's crazy. Of course. It's really, every time I go home to Pittsburgh, all my friends I used to like drag kegs into the woods with when I was 15, like, watching them like play like Little League with their kids is the cutest thing in the world.

It's nice to see your friends be a parent. But while you were there, I was in Italy and I know I talked a little bit about solo travel last week, but I hadn't taken a solo trip at a really long time. And I feel like I just like really reconnected with how much I love it. I spent five days alone. I spent three nights in Rome and two nights in the Amalfi Coast. What? And then more time. And then I spent the whole time in Lisbon alone.

You know, I was really craving more alone time. So these five days alone maybe like really love traveling alone, but it also made me like really appreciate how nice it was to like be with people. So I was really excited to get to Lisbon and spend some time with you. But I really loved being in Rome alone specifically because there's so much to do. So I was never bored. I never felt lonely. I play on stuff every day.

There was lots of things to do. I didn't make reservations, but I always made sure there was like three restaurants in an area I could pop into. It's a walkable city. And I just feel like when I'm. I'm alone. I'm like really present in an experience. I, like, think about the food a lot more. I look at my surroundings a lot more. I spend more time talking to locals and getting better wrecks. Like, talk to drivers. You talk, you know, you take a boat out for the day about yourself.

You fuck the driver. Or you fuck the driver. Anyway, um, I, you know, I love watching couples not talk to each other. And, you know, I think when you're alone, you're like, everyone's looking at me. And it's like, no one's looking at you. I was looking at all these couples just not talking to each other. Yeah. I was like, are you guys having fun? I'm having a blast. Yeah. So I really, I loved it. Rome was really special for me. And then I went to Pasatano and I spent two nights there. And I would not recommend going there alone to be completely honest and do whatever you guys

want. It is the most romantic place I've ever been in my life. I just, I wouldn't recommend a solo trip there necessarily. Major cities, absolutely. But I was nearby and I wanted to go. And it just was, it's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life. Yes. I ended up running into some listeners in the lobby as soon as I checked in and they were really

wonderful. I stayed at this great hotel. and just sort of made the most of it. It's not an easy city. It's not an easy area to be in because you need a driver. You need reservations. I mean, everybody is in Europe right now, and there's not a ton of restaurants in Pasitano,

and you have to have reservations. I feel like even Heather was saying that. Yes, she was. That was her one thing about go. That's actually her two things were reservations and get a car or have a driver. Yes. You know how I like to travel.

I don't like any plans at all, and it made it a little tough. But I really loved it. Heather McMahon, who's on her honeymoon, that I cannot stop watching. it's my favorite TV show, recommended these boat drivers. I took a boat out for the day.

I met this couple that was local, and they recommended all this really special stuff. And it just was a really nice couple days by myself. I felt really good. And I got up early. I walked a lot. And in Rome, I got this tattoo that I'm really excited about. My mom always says to me,

she always said about me, she marches to the beat of her own drum. So I had my mom write that. She's so funny. I said to her, can you write to the beat of your own drum? And she had like all these questions. You want cursive? Do you want a line paper?

I was like, just fucking write it. So she wrote it and I sent her the tattoo and she was like, oh my God, this is like so much more serious than like anything I could have ever imagined. Like I just thought, she was like, I didn't really understand why you couldn't write it. Wait, did you tell her it was for a tattoo? Because I thought that she would overthink it.

Okay. And like stress out about like how to write it. Yes, yes, yes, agree. But it was a nice experience. I just, I mean, people asked me a lot of questions about how you find a tattoo place in a new city. Just look up reviews and find a place as a lot of Instagram followers and like go through their stuff.

So this place had like 40,000 Instagram followers. I knew it was like a really good place. And they did it really quickly. They were wonderful. But my mom and I have been talking nonstop. I told her I gave her a little feedback, a little personal feedback that she doesn't ask me a lot of questions about my life. And she's like, I'm going to make you regret that.

I said that to me. I like that you guys. She's like sending you childhood pick. It's endless. It's really cute. I feel like you guys have reconnected. We have and it's nice. I mean, we just, you know, whatever.

Your relationship with your mom is a journey. It's a journey. You know, mother-daughter relationships are interesting. And yeah, gave her the few weeks. She doesn't ask me questions. And she was like, I'm going to ask you every question under the sun all day, every day. And so she's really been up my ass. She's really doing it.

I love it. But it's been nice. So, yeah, she asked me a thousand questions for a few days. So I got a tattoo in her honor on my left arm. And, you know, it's nice. She likes it. She's happy about it. But I didn't tell you, I got this massage in the Malfi Coast in Positano.

And it was the greatest massage I've ever gotten. What? It got very crazy. So I was like overlooking the ocean. It's like wall to wall, floor to ceiling windows. It's just me and there. Everything is couples.

They cannot let you know enough that you're alone. You're alone, alone. I walked into the massage place. There's two bed. They take you into the couple's massage room. They're like, you're going to get a massage next to this empty bed. They just want to remind you.

But it was the greatest massage I've ever gotten. She was using like different creams on different parts of my body. And like I was butt naked. She touched. everything. It was, she did everything besides penetrate me. It was very crazy. She got on top. She got on the bed. She like mounted me. What? It was to get her like knees in your back or? Yes. She just, she was like a monkey all over my body. It like really turned me on. It was crazy. I was like, she just like slipped a finger inside of me. I would just let her. She was touching my tits.

I have not had that happen to me. And the only place it's ever happened is in Thailand. I, but in Italy. She just, I just, she was like, okay, you can turn over now. I turned over and she just like laid the cloth across my vagina. And my tits were out and she's like, we're all girls here. I was like, I love this. This is crazy. She was like rubbing my tits. I was so turned on.

I could not wait to like run back to the room to masturbate. Oh my God. I mean, it is, it's like when I get a bikini wax, they're in my vagina. They touch a clip. Ashley had a little situation where they got a little close to her clint. Okay. Listen, one time I got this bikini wax and it was really invasive. and I don't know if she was new or she didn't have the right technique,

but it was, I've gotten so many, well, sugarine, I've gotten so many sugareings in my life and I know what it feels like and it was so much on my clit. Like it was, I felt uncomfortable. I really didn't like it.

I mean, I know what it's supposed to be like and it was, it was just different and it felt really invasive. I was really upset about it. And I don't email them. She said, what's, she said,

I gotta see that subject line. She touched my, clit. And I laugh so hard. So we reference it all the time. Yes, they touch your clit sometimes. Actually, I don't even know. She was all up in my clit. It was weird. But I'm happy for you. This woman did not touch my clit. She didn't do anything wrong, by the way. I mean, she did not sexually assault me. I wanted her to. But she was incredible. But you know, I had this moment. It's like, it was so weird. I couldn't even believe it came out of my mouth. So I like turned over. And she like, you know, she, I'm on my back. She pulled the towel down. And I like, I like,

haven't been naked in front of a complete stranger in so long. And she, I was like, oh, I have like breast reduction scars. I don't know. I was like apologizing for it. And she was like, we're all women. Who cares? But I, and then I was like, wait, why did I do that? It didn't make me realize I am still, like, wrestling with, like, the new way my body looks. And you guys have asked me my breast reduction. I mean, my boobs are still huge. I'm going to have it redone. It's not what I wanted. And we'll talk about it at a later time. You know, I just want to have fun today. But yeah, I breast reduction scars and I just, it's a different body

than it was before. And it just, I couldn't believe even came out of my mouth. I was like apologizing to a stranger who sees people's bodies every day, all day. Weird ones. Yeah. I'm just kidding. No bodies are weird. Some of them are. But that's the thing with bikini waxing too. Like I've heard some horror stories the way people come up in there, just

unhygienic. Oh, really? Oh, my God. Yeah. It's so shocking to me that somebody wouldn't like go just splash off their pussy a little bit before. Yeah. Some bodies are weird. You know my ex a different, an ex who will not be named has like a weird butt, like a little deflated butt. That's a weird butt. Well, that guy fucked in Greece. Interesting dick. I was trying to explain to it. And you were like shaming me. You were like, that's what they look like. I'm like, no, they don't. Everyone in the car was

shaming you. Okay. We were all trying to understand why you didn't understand what a dick looked like. No, that's not true. Everybody understood but you. Brian understood he's a boy. You were the only one that couldn't seem to grasp it. Maybe you've never seen. seen a dick. I've seen so many dicks. Yeah, same. But I wouldn't say about this trip. This obviously wasn't a solo trip for me, but I was alone a lot. I mean, I was alone. I did almost all my breakfast alone until I met up with Caleb in Portugal. And I did one whole day, like, I saw him later for dinner and stuff. But I did one whole day where I was like mostly alone and I did stuff on my own. And then in Lisbon, before you got there, I did like a dinner by myself at this place that one of our friends

told us to go with everybody was hot there, like the bartenders and they were. So that was nice, nice to look at and talk to. And then the next day before you got there. So, I mean, it's not my prefer, but I do like a nice, like, a breakfast for me is like the perfect way to like start the day alone. Like I brought my book. Like I just have this really nice time just sitting there having this like delicious

breakfast reading my book. We were talking about when people, when you tell them you're alone, I fucking love it. And if you judge me, that's your problem. Yeah. I am so confident about it. Like, I don't fucking care. And if you get even weirder with me, I like like it more. Like I almost get off on it because I'm like, you're the one that can't seem to understand that this is a power move.

Like, you know what I mean? Like that's your problem. Like if you, if someone ever shames you for being alone, they don't think you should be alone. Like, I feel bad for you. Truly. Yeah. Because you can't do it. If you don't, if you think it's weird, that means that you would never do it.

And I don't, I don't, I wasn't feeling that. But sometimes also like you were saying there was one place that just didn't seem to understand it maybe culturally or I don't know. I felt it a little impacitano. I mean, I think it's the same. sexiest thing in the world when I see a woman alone eating a meal. I think it is the most confident sexy thing. We made friends with that girl in Greece who's traveling by herself. And I just, I felt really inspired by her. Yeah, we, I told her listen to the podcast. I hope she does. I was like, we have like a really good podcast if you're like for her. Yeah, just didn't make a no aspire herself.

I just, I was inspired by her. I thought she looked really sexy. Positana was just, I mean, it's so romantic. There's nobody there. It's not a couple. And the last night I was there, I did eat dinner alone. I mean, I ate on my beautiful veranda overlooking Pasatana. tono. But I did just sort of like, I had hit the wall with like walking to places alone. I was just tired of it. Yeah. You know? And I don't, I mean to be quite honest, like I don't really, like I guess there's a world in which you go have a dinner and sit at the bar, have a glass of wine and like strike up conversation. But like if you don't, like, I'm like, now I'm just kind of looking at my phone. You know, like I'm all about like the breakfast lunch solo, but I'm not,

I don't love to just go eat dinner solo. Like that's a social event for me, you know, figuring out where to go to dinner and just all that stuff. So I agree. I feel like. nighttime sometimes. So like if you're by yourself, yeah, there's nothing wrong with just like, go order room service and ball out in your room, like whatever. Yeah. I went out last night. I was like sad without you last night or not. I'm so sad. I went to this place, um, Pink Street and in Lisbon. And it was just like live music and a lot of cute hot guys and it was loud. I met some listeners. I was like talking this guy that I talked to on an app and we were like texting and he was like, where are you? I was like, oh my God. In my bed. I hated it. He was like my favorite one that I would talk to.

Well, I think we both like kind of just hit the wall at the end of the trip. I really I was like ready to come home. I just, you know, guys, it's just too much vacation. It's too much to my pleasure centers. I know, I'm glad to be back.

Okay, just I have a couple wrecks, you guys on the plane. I watched marry me with J-Lo and Owen Wilson and Sarah Silverman and I fucking loved it. And I, you know,

where J-Lo stands, love a J-L movie, just love her. And I don't know. This movie didn't get any hype or I thought I saw like, not great reviews. And I was like,

is this just going to be some corny, rom-com, but I should have given J-Lo more credit than that. I fucking loved it. This is one of the best rom-coms I've seen in a minute. Like, I feel like we had this amazing age of rom-coms, and then they got really bad. Like, this feels like the old school, Maluma is in it. He plays like, well, I don't want to give it away, but it's J-Lo and Maluma. And then there's a soundtrack.

So there's all these original songs, and I'm like, am I going to get these songs? Like, there's this one song about like self-love. She's like, I am a love with a love of my life. I was like, where's this song? So now I thought there's a soundtrack. It's just Jalo and Maluma. Like, it's a collab album. I know.

I can't wait to get out of here and listen to it on my way home. No one is talking about this. I really, really love the movie. It's really cute. Of course, it ends a little bit predictably like every rom-com, but like it was different. It was different and I do really love it. And I can't recommend it enough. I guess I have to check this out now.

I'm going to check out the album first. The album. And then while I was sick, I watched this. summer I turn pretty, which is on Amazon. I got recommended that. I knew I would love it. I'm obsessed with it. It's an amazing coming of age story. They've already have a season two that's been greenlit. And so I can't recommend that enough. I'm sure a lot of you guys have already seen it. Raina hasn't seen it. I don't want to give it away. But it's really so good. I mean, it's one of the best coming of age stories I've ever seen. The title kind of speaks for itself.

But I really love all of it, really poignant. I bawled my eyes out at the end. These two brothers are hot. They play teenagers, but they're of age. So I can say that. They're both fucking smoking. And then I really liked the Wilds. And season two was out. So I started watching The Wilds. A little darker. The first season was these girls were stranded on a deserted island.

The second season is boys, but the girls are still in it. And F Boy Island, Nikki Glazer, we love that has started again in season two. I can't wait to watch it now that I'm home. And that's HBO MX. I didn't watch anything while we were away.

Last night is the first time I watched anything. You know, watching Southern Charm, of course. I like watching Page on it. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. I finished hacks. I took one night after I went to dinner with my friend and came back and finished like the last two episodes.

I had a hacks. Season two, obsessed with that. I love the way it ended. It felt kind of final. I think that might be the end. I don't know, for sure.

Don't quote me. But that was the first time I'd like watch any TV. And that was like towards the end of the trip. Saw these wrecks from my trip. You know, yesterday. You're just in this dark room yesterday. I like brought you some aspirin.

You opened the door and it was just pitch black in there. It was really doing it. It was a dark time. I don't, So I don't have a lot of wrecks. Yesterday I watched a girl in the picture, which is a new documentary on Netflix. It's about the mysterious death of this woman. And you sort of find out that like her and her maybe husband, maybe father are both

lying about their identities. You're not sure if she was kidnapped. She's a son who also goes missing. You're not sure what happens to him. And it's about a two-hour watch. It's on Netflix is really one of my favorite like murder documentaries because the ending is truly so beautiful. And I feel that they just wrapped it up really well.

And it just, it's a really special ending to. to like these really dark murder type themes. And I can't wait to watch The Bear on Hulu, which is a drama series about working in restaurants. If you guys like Shameless, which is like one of my favorite, favorite shows, the eldest son from Shameless is the star of this show on Hulu. And then, of course, I'm going to watch Fock Boy Island tonight.

But I'm just excited to catch up on some reality TV. I mean, all I'm doing is just like laundry and, you know, we're back to work now. And kind of get a manicure and beat up. I ate a lot. I'm excited to work out now that I'm back, but we walked so much. I mean, I said it on last week's episode. I just, I will eat whatever I want when I'm away. And I feel like food blogging really connected me to food so much. You know, I'll spend all day long walking around and just like eating the food of the country. You know, I'll sit in a bodega by myself with no music and eat

sardines. Yeah, he will. You did that on my birthday. That's cool for me. 20 minutes. You wanted to go to the Kinawa Cafe and I'll listen to you at Barcelona. I need a smoothie. Okay, guys, we are so excited to welcome our guest today. He is a human connection specialist. He's a speaker, a writer, a motivator. He has tons of content and programs to decipher why we show up the way we do in romantic relationships,

our professional life, friendships, and more. He is the founder of Create the Love, which has over a million followers on Instagram. He is the host of the Mark Gross podcast. He has been dodging us for years. Oh, my God. I swiped right, and then I just played the long game. You did.

We waited you out, though. And we finally have you. So welcome to the show. Oh, I'm so excited to be here. So excited. We're so glad to have you. Yeah, I just, I feel like anytime we've ever asked, like, who do you guys want to see? It's always Mark.

And I'm like, Raina, what's the deal with that guy? He's dodging me. I think it was because I had to come to New York and I just couldn't get there at the times. And so we've had to settle for a Zoom relationship. Yeah. Yeah, you found me in Idaho, which you should have come out. here so you could experience like vacation podcasting right like that's into it you are good friends of one of our podcast favorites conor beaton and we've heard you on almost 30 who are also guests of the show

so we're excited to finally nail you down oh so excited yeah let's do this we know a lot of our listeners know you and are familiar with you and we know some of your backstory and we are going to get into some of these great topics today but can you give us a short elevator pitch on on your life and what brought you to the kind of work that you are doing We know? I'm 43, so this gets longer, the elevator bitch. You know, I'm born in Canada, born and raised Catholic. That just sort of plays in because I feel like a lot of the undoing and the messaging I had was really undoing Catholicism and liberating myself from some Sky Daddy who gets to decide if I'm good or bad. And you don't even find out until you die,

like how that's the ultimate suspenseful story ever. So yeah, I grew up in Canada and I loved relating. Like I love studying relationships. My dad and I would talk about relating all the time when I was young. I actually thought I was pretty good at relationships as a teenager. No joke because I did the standard thing. I bought my girlfriend a rose for a one month anniversary and then our six month and then her two. I consider myself quite a romantic. Did you put it on her car?

That was always so like high school would there be a rose on your car? Yeah, like I put a card on a university girlfriend's windshield. I do remember that. So, yeah. I thought about these things. I considered them, but then my whole world melted down when I was betrayed and cheated on. And I actually didn't turn towards studying relationships from like an intelligent perspective then. I was also working on a place called Future Shop, which is like the Best Buy of Canada.

Best Buy actually bought them. And you wore a suit, you sold extended warranties. It was a lot like the 40-year-old virgin. And then I studied in university. I studied finance. And my favorite classes, there were psychology. but of course I was living under the narrative that you can't make money doing anything other than finance, accounting, doctor, you know, the engineer, all the same sort of bullshit. I think everyone else is taught.

Get married by this age, have kids by this age. And so I was really on track to do that. I was studying, I became a pharmaceutical rep. I mean, you couldn't cookie cutter me any better. And then I got engaged at 27 and my engagement was really just, it felt, I know this is going to sound weird, but I felt, I felt, just so disconnected from myself when I got engaged. You know, I asked the question, and I was taught to always pursue this moment. And I was 27, so I was right on time.

And when I asked her, and she was and is an incredible woman, and she said yes. And I was like, oh, I think I should be more excited than this. Like, there was a moment. I had experienced anxiety before that about getting engaged, but people would just dismiss it. That I was afraid of commitment. You know, I'm just a guy. Like, this is just normal. But it felt like so much more than that.

And so it was really that moment where I started to think about like, how do you know if someone's the one? And I started to look that up on the internet. And of course, back then, you know, it didn't have Google. I was using like metacrawler or something. I forget. You asked Jeeves. Yeah, you know, it's like, how do you know if she's the one?

Alta Vista. Right, right. Yeah, asked Jeeves. I forgot about that. You're like, hey, Jeeves. How do I know if this is right for me? And he's like, if you're asking. Jeeves was the original Alexa.

Right, who was? If you have to ask, the OG Alexa. The OG Alexa. Yeah, so that really led me down a rabbit hole. And I found myself on this website called the runaway bride. It doesn't exist anymore, unfortunately. But it was about people who had left marriages, engagements, whatever it might be. And I posted my story on there, just what I've, because I found if I went to people I knew,

they would give me advice based on how it might impact them. Like there was a bias. Also, if they were afraid of being left, all these things were coming into their advice. I felt a lot of judgment. So anyways, post to my story, this woman asked me three questions. If she left you tomorrow, would you be okay? And I thought, oh, man, not only would I be okay, I would be, like, relieved of so much anxiety.

And the next question was, could you imagine what it would be like waiting for her at your altar, whatever your altar is? And I was like, no, that gave me anxiety, made my stomach sort of hurt. And the last question was, could someone else like that? love her better. And that was the question that really got me because so much of my experience was more egocentric. Like, how's this affecting me? Why am I afraid? I wasn't actually thinking about how my ambivalence was impacting her. And the answer I had was, yeah, someone could love her better. And of course, the follow-up question to that is, do you want to? And I didn't want to. And I didn't know why. But I just knew that when I realized it was also about her and what she was worthy of. And what I

was worthy of to want that. That's when I left. And I started to study relationships because I thought, how come I've been so disconnected from myself? And why did I get engaged when I didn't want to? That made no sense to me. And I'd spent my 20s up until that point studying how to manipulate behavior, how to increase sales, how to change someone from one product to another, how to pick up women, how to, you know, I was reading like, not the game, I was reading some other one. I forget what it was call, but it was highly manipulative. And I, you know, that was sort of a rock bottom of why do I do and why do I relate the way do I relate? And why was I lied to about relationship? I felt like no one was telling the truth about relationship. You get married to someone and you stay together forever and

you stay in love. And when I went through that, I was like, that's bullshit. That's such bullshit. There's so many people who are together who hate each other and we celebrate that shit. Like, fuck that. So I went back to school, studied, started reading all the science. And here we are. That wasn't a short elevator pitch. No, thank you for sharing that. And I'm like thinking, Raina, like I was like, this is Raina's story too? Because she had a, she was in sales, then she got engaged.

And I know, I was like, don't interrupt. I was like, don't interrupt. I was like, don't hear me too. But no, it's really, I'm sure people are even listening to that and are relating people that might be engaged right now. And I think it's so great that you did it before the day before the wedding. I think you see a lot of men push that aside, not ask those questions, not even consider it until it's the last minute.

Or spend a lot of. married and disconnected, you know? Or go through with it, yeah. We, you said something that really, like, stuck out to me. I like what you said. Why do we celebrate the type of relationships where people are together and they hate each other? It's like the ultimate goal is to find a person, lock it down.

That's what we're driving towards at all points. But Ashley and I talk about it all the time, you know, which relationships do we emulate? Whose relationships will we want to be in? And there are so many that I don't want to be in, but they've, you know, quote-unquote figured it out because they're married. And, you know, that's not the end of the road. and it's hard work. And I know so many people have been married for eight, 10 years, and it's fucking hard.

And I don't find a reason to celebrate being together with somebody that you hate either. So why do you think we do that? What's your take on that? Well, there's a lot of cultural momentum that says being together is the ultimate sign of relational success. And we see that in how we celebrate relationship. We celebrate anniversaries. If someone tells you their relational status, you know, they say like, hey, are you dating? And then, of course, if you're dating, they say when you're getting engaged, and then when are you getting married.

And then everything's like a step up and up. And the more higher you are on the relational status grid, when you're having a kid, when you're having an ex kid, these are all outcomes that we've been taught. And there's nothing wrong with them. It's just that when we say to someone like, why are you single? It's sort of inferring that they have an ailment. Like, it can't be by choice. And if you're divorced, you're actually sort of cast below all of these things. And that shows you that as a society, we've said that if you haven't made a relationship last, then you're a failure.

I met a woman the other day who I didn't know. And she said, oh, I'm just going through a divorce. She had no idea what I did for work. And I was like, oh, that sounds like, you know, because of my reaction is usually like, great. You know, like way to go through it. Because I think it's the one of the ultimate acts of reclamation. Of course, it depends why it happened. But you're going against all of cultural momentum.

And that is liberating. That means if you're willing to free yourself from the momentum of that and disappoint people to choose yourself, that's actually the kind of person I want to be with. Like, my partner is divorced. It's one of my favorite things about her. And I remember when she told me that she was divorced, I was like, that's awesome. And she was like, what? Like, she'd been taught.

That's a reason to not be loved. And here I am. But that's the thing that woke you up. If you didn't wake up from the divorce, we wouldn't be together. And this woman said to me, I know, I failed. that's what she said and I felt so just so much love for her

in that moment just being like you didn't fail if the ultimate achievement is keeping together yeah you failed at the outcome someone gave you

but if the ultimate achievement is actually being connected to truth and that being what you honor over everything we feel disconnected there's infidelity there's lying

there's whatever it is if we ignore those things to stay together we have lost ourselves And that is the construct of most relationships is people aren't telling the truth about what's actually going on. So why do we do it? I mean, there's so much momentum in terms of what society pressures us to do. But you see this not just in relationship and what we choose for work and who we choose to be, you know.

I feel so sad when I hear people, and you hear it a lot that, you know, after a breakup or a divorce that somebody says I failed. But isn't it the ultimate success to choose yourself and choose happiness? And there's a million different reasons why we split up. I mean, it's not a failure to just say to be able to self-recognize, I'm not happy and to have the courage to move on. It's like the opposite of a failure to me. Well, I think the highest level is loving yourself. That sounds so cliche and cheesy, but like, I mean, it truly is to have actual deep self-love is the top is to be. Because, I mean, there's something so sad about being married with a family and feeling alone, feeling like you hate your life.

I mean, that's like that's so such a worse fate than being single. So normalized. I don't need to defend this, but it's just like that's what we always said. No, I agree with you. I think it's so normalized too. We even say like it's normalized. I interviewed Laura McCown on my podcast and she was saying like we've even said that it's normal to be wine moms, to have wine to soothe the life that we're living

and anesthetize what it is, which is not to shame people drinking wine, but the intention of why we're doing it. I'd say, you know, you said that's cheesy that the idea, I'd say bring the greer, you know, because what it shows is that when you start to honor the truth, you're actually orienting back towards yourself and starting to create a sacred relationship with you. And whatever invites you to do that, a breakup, a divorce, a rock bottom, a drug addiction, alcohol, it doesn't matter anything that leaves you questioning why you do what you do and are your choices aligned with treating yourself with reverence?

I mean, that's always a gift if we accept it. It just isn't coming in, you know, like that gift doesn't usually come with an orgasm. It doesn't come. Sometimes it does right before the one night stand rock bottom where you're walking home still dressed in your Halloween costume. Well, let's talk about why we're bad at dating. That's a broad question. It is.

Feel free to break it down however you would like or go in a lane wherever. I mean, we're generally bad at dating because so much is, on the line in the dating process that's unconscious generally. Like, I'm more concerned with being chosen. This comes back to relational status, fear of divorce, fear of breaking up, you know, which lives both in the dating too, is that if I'm afraid that you're not going to choose me, then I'm probably not going to ask the questions that might make you not choose me. Much like if I'm afraid we're going to break up and my self-worth lives in us staying together, then I'm going to avoid the conversations that might break us up. The irony is that those

are actually the conversations that deepen relationships. In the dating process, I hear this all the time. People will be like, I'm afraid to ask what they're looking for. I'm afraid to ask about all these different things. I'm like, but that's actually filtering. That's like, if they're not looking for what you're looking for, then that's actually valuable information. But most of us date from the place of needing to be chosen. So what I'm already doing is orienting towards this other person that I need them to choose me to validate that I'm worthy of being chosen. And that's why I'm going to pick people who are not good choices, but they actually say they want to be in a relationship with me, even though their behaviors are totally dysfunctional and maybe filled with red flags like a

carnival. You know, the challenge is that we're not waiting to discern and pick somebody. We're waiting to be picked. And that's one of the biggest parts. Also, because we feel like there's something wrong with us if we're single, which is the messaging, as I said, that we're sent from society. So we want to do anything to be able to answer our aunt at Thanksgiving who says, oh, you're with someone now? And you're like, yes. And she's like, shut the fuck up, Aunt Teresa. But finally she does.

Like, we'd rather avoid that because there's some sort of inferred shame. I say celebrate being single. We don't feel that way. Right. But a lot of people do. They do. They do. And when you start dating from a place,

that it can be healing and empowering and evidence of your badassry, that you have boundaries, that you're self-worth. You also get to work on your stuff. Like you've been texting with someone on fucking Tinder for five messages and then they'd stop texting you and your world melts down. That should be a real good invitation to do some work. I like the way you frame it as like dating because you want to be chosen. And I think I spent my entire 20s when I wasn't in a relationship.

It informed all my decisions to not text first, not seem needy, not ask somebody to hang out with me first. I'd sit at home all night waiting for. somebody to text me and tell me what the plan was. Like, I just was so passive in my dating life. And I don't know that it bred the best relationships for me. I mean, same. I was a people pleaser.

I was afraid of being rejected. I mean, one of my wounds in relationship was, you don't choose me. You don't fully choose me. So what did I find myself in relationship with? Women who didn't fully choose me. And then they would just be just choose me and a little bit enough, like 94%. But the 6% that's left over is, is the most painful part, you know? It's the lack of certainty that this relationship is going to last

or that we're together. Like they're at the baseline of all human relationships, no matter if it's romantic or not, we are constantly asking the question, am I safe to be myself? And if things go, I re like in my life, will you be here for me? We're always asking that. We're asking that in work relationships too. Am I psychologically safe to be myself? The answer is often no. But we leave ourselves in these circumstances because it's been so normalized. Yeah. And I think even, Raina, like, just, like, it doesn't mean that today you're, like, all assertive, aggressive, like, I'm going to ask him out. You know, it's just more that, like, the people you were picking probably, they made you feel a certain way. They made you feel like you have to wait around. Like, when you're with somebody

that you've mutually chosen each other and is a good, healthy partner for you, those things don't even really come up. Yeah, I don't think about it anymore. I mean, I think that her and I both, we really like to date people that are intentional, that show up, the text back promptly, that make a plan to see you for the next date while you're on the current date. And if they don't, I just don't find it super attractive. It's not, I don't hate them. I'm not such a bad bitch screaming at them. You know, we talk all the time, just like a normal calm way to say that to a person. Yeah, if you don't like me, I'm turned off. Well, isn't that funny, right? Like, it's so simple to think logically. Like, one of the caveats of someone being your person is they want you and want to be with you.

Like that is the simplest. If someone is your person, like, that's the other challenge with dating. Is as soon as we get a tingle in our loins, we're like, they're the person. Like, they're the one. You know? And then we have this fantasy. And Disney has done this to us, right? That's why I said there's so much cultural momentum.

It's like some woman's waiting in a tower for a dude to save her. So dudes need to think they need to save chicks from towers. Women need to think that they need to be safe. You know, and it creates all these dynamics that are not conducive to healthy relationships. We should be dating with the process of discerning that they are becoming the one in the process. Like we're not just handing the title. You know, date one, you're not just putting that title on them. Also, the idea that there's only one person is so scarce minded.

Like, there's lots of people we could work it out with. And that's probably the most important thing is, are they willing to look at their shit? Are they interested in growth? As you both said, consistency. Are they consistent? Like, if they're not texting you back, stop chasing them. I mean, that's simple. So I think this is all great advice, but what if somebody's like, okay, I want to stop dating in this way?

What's your advice for somebody that's like, I can't stop? Well, like any drug, you've got to put it down. You know, I remember the first time I was really, not the first, but like when I was on the edge of really changing a pattern, I remember having a woman who I could have texted for a booty call. And I remember it being like a drug, like my phone. I remember being like, I'll just send a message. And I'm like, no, I want to be committed to what I'm actually pursuing. Like I am actually looking for a relationship.

But my choices were not aligning with what my spoken intention was. And whenever your choices don't align or your life outcomes don't align with what you say you want, you know that there's unconscious beliefs and wounds that are living within it. And so I had to sit in the space of that discomfort, likely a space of discomfort I really hadn't sat in. Like all our addictions are really just distractions from pains that we don't want to process. Gabor Mante says the wrong question is why the addiction, the right question is why the pain. And so even in these subtle ways that we pursue, there's something unattended within ourselves. So listen, anyone can keep doing it.

Like I think like Tony Robbins says, we change things for two reasons. One, it hurts so much we have to or two, we learn so much we have to. But we don't have to wait till that. We can just say this doesn't feel like it's working and I need to change something about my relational patterns. And the reason that can feel so hard is because if you look up your family tree, likely versions of that behavior existed. And so the work we do relationally requires immense courage. It requires going against the momentum of our hereditary programming. Like you think about that.

I heard John Weinland say that you're altering your karmic relational path. Like how powerful is that when you consider not pursuing the, as you're saying, this person who's, involved in these toxic behaviors or unhealthy relating patterns, to know that actually not doing it anymore is changing the momentum of what you've inherited. I mean, to me, that's incredible. Right. It's an accomplishment. Like, it's really something that you can do only on your own.

It's a decision that you make that is truly, like, a big accomplishment in your life and leading, like, a healthier, happier life with a healthier, happier relationship. So if anyone is able to do that, you should, Be proud of yourself. Incredibly. Like I think if you come from boundary-less parents and you know you need boundaries, like you know you need to say no to shit

you don't want them to do you. I remember working with this woman once who I was like, you don't have to go on a second date with someone you're not interested in. And she was like, what? I don't have to go on the second date. And I was like, no, you don't.

But when someone has just watched their parent, likely the mother in that case, stay with someone or believe they have to do things to please the man or not disappoint the man or not have the man experience rejection. From a survival perspective, that makes a lot of sense because unhealthy react of male emotion can lead to abuse. Right? Like, it can be that.

So women generally are more interested from a survival-based perspective to learn how to navigate emotion. Harriet Lerner talks about how like any subordinate group needs to learn the needs and nuances of the dominant group in order. to survive. And I think this is totally true. And for that woman, for example, the first time she says no to the second date or anyone lays a boundary and comes from a boundaryless family, you're doing a behavior that has not been done. I mean, that's so incredible. But that's why it's so hard. That's why it should be easy to say, no, I don't want to go out again. But it's all

the stuff that comes with it. It's all the programming. It's all the inherited family patterns. Self-reflection is just really hard and the people that tell you that they're the best at it are often the worst at it people that say I'm really self-aware I'm like, no you're not. I think it's really hard. I mean, Ashley and I've done this podcast

for four and a half years and it was only like a year ago we were in the car. I still remember this really profound discussion we were having where I was like unpacking all my previous relationships and I had this epiphany with Ashley. I was like, oh, I pick people that are unavailable so it hurts worse when they reject me. It took me four years of doing this podcast.

Harts less? Hurts less? What did I say? Hurts worse. Hurts worse. Hurts worse. I meant it hurts less. I just want to make sure you get it right because we're like, what?

Both of those suck, though. Like, both worse or less, but I get it. I'm not an emotional cutter. There's a lot of stuff wrong with me, but not that. But what I'm saying is the self-reflection is really hard, even though Ashley and I've had the privilege of interviewing some of the best minds in the world in psychology. We read all the books.

We interview people like you. But it is hard to pause and say, like, oh, I'm bad at this. or I can't see inside of myself. You know, I try to, I can see it from a different lens being on the outside with Raina. And it's like, I feel like I've watched her with the help of your, like, knowledge that you've learned and with me just breathing down your neck. Just being like, don't go for them. They're not a viable person to date in the world. Like, I can see it from a mile away.

And I feel like you've been so good at, like, not doing it. Like, you've leaned in less. Yeah. When there's just the red flags are flying, like Raina just, she knows better now. I hope. Yeah, I decided. I sent an intention to date a divorce person a year ago and then I did it. Well, you mentioned people pleasing and I saw that on your Instagram and I love what you have to say and I'd love to just touch on that a little bit even if you just regurgitate what you said on your Instagram. But I think so many people can relate to that and you're saying that you used to be a people pleaser as well.

Yeah, like people pleasing is a survival-based strategy to keep the peace. You know, it's to avoid conflict. It's to manage everyone else's feelings over our own. own. You know, all of our relational patterns that show up, defensiveness, assertiveness, criticism, all the different things, dating unavailable people, they all come from a really beautiful place because really what they're doing is protecting us from potential harm or potential hurt. But the irony is that we end up staying in the cycle of familiar suffering. The thing is that it's familiar. So at least there's some certainty. What I find kind of nuts when I processed what I was doing in relationship and then, you know, just in doing the work, is that

the very thing we avoid, like choosing someone who's available who could choose us, is actually the very place where what we need lives, right? Like, what we ultimately seek is love, but the very place we avoid going is where the thing that we need lives. And in the behaviors that we have, like reactivity or defensiveness, or people pleasing, there are ways to protect us from experiencing hurt. And again, we still keep experiencing hurt. And so that's why we attract unavailability, for example, or my people pleasing was so that I could learn how to stand up. I had to become such a doormat that it hurt so much that I was so self-abandoned and not in my body. I didn't believe that when the relationship was on the line or something was important to be discussed,

that I needed to stand up for myself, unconsciously, I didn't believe that I'd be there for myself. And you think about how sad that is, right? I also dated unavailable people. This is actually the unavailable dating recovery group. You know, it's like, hi, I'm Mark. I did that because, and when I really processed that, I started to sit with the truth that truly only unavailable people find unavailability attractive, right? So there's a part of us that is afraid of depth because whatever lives formerly our experience of depth probably led to pain. So I'm just going to live in this space. I know I can manage. I know, as you said, it's easier because it's manageable. And the child or the adolescent thinks that what's beyond that is unmanageable, is too much. But the adult learns the

behaviors to go beyond the former upper limit and builds the skills that are necessary to move through whatever the upper limit is. So like if I needed boundaries because previously I felt walked on, the way that I moved through the process is actually learning boundaries and then I go past where I stopped before, where the pain occurred, if that makes sense. Yeah. Also, I think what you said in the Instagram post was if we're trying to attain this like self-love, this like living in our truth, you can't do that when you're people pleasing. You're not able to like live to your full potential. Well, usually that behavior is, I mean, it's all. I mean, it's all. about the other. And when we're in that, it's like being afraid to block your acts on Instagram

because you don't want to hurt their feelings. But meanwhile, following them and seeing their stories actually hurts you. You're not prioritizing your own healing. And whenever you put other people's feelings ahead of your own, you live in a world that is about other only. And so as soon as you even say, I'm going to take myself for dinner, I'm going to set a boundary. It just feels so selfish. And often what has been weaponized against us is guilt, is the use of guilt to make us collapse, to make us take care of other people, do all these things. And so I would say first, we can expand our capacity for guilt. We can learn to hold guilt. It's the feeling that makes us engage in a behavior so we don't have to feel it. And so we often try to save people from feelings

we don't know how to sit in or we don't know the value of. That guilt doesn't mean I need to go, people please. It might actually be guilt about me not prioritizing myself, but it's been projected to someone else. And so the first thing I would say is as you begin to prioritize self, you will likely feel very selfish, but you're not selfish. You're actually just starting to orient towards self, which is totally different. And don't let someone tell you that you are. I worry that someone starts to draw boundaries and they get like gaslit into thinking they're selfish. Every time you change a relational behavior almost every time, I would say, the other person will do a countermov to try to get the relationship back to what was, to try to get you back to what was.

It's kind of like if you quit some sort of behavior that your group of friends does, likely they will try to get you back to the behavior rather than look at their own inability to make a similar choice, assuming that choice is not healthy. I think it can be scary because if you're somebody who has trouble drawing boundaries and you're such a people pleaser, you're like, well, everybody hate me. I've had these relationships for so long. And if I show up as a different person, what is everybody going to think of me? And one of my best friends is self-admittedly terrible with setting boundaries. And she is working on it. But one of the things she said to me

one day, she was like, I'm so busy. I have all these projects for work. And people keep texting me. And I was like, but I feel so rude, like ignoring people. And I just, I can't, like, I can't detach from it. And I was like, I don't text you back all day. You don't hate me. You don't think I'm the worst. You know I love you. Why are you just? judging yourself so much more harshly than you judge me. I don't text you back all day long. It's because I'm busy. I'm at work. I'm with Ashley. Whatever. You know that I still love you at the end of the day. So I think people are probably afraid that like that switch in the boundaries is going to alienate others. But it's just not. Like I don't know how else to say it just won't.

Yeah. And I love the dating example too of the woman that was so surprised to learn she didn't have to go on a second date. I mean, it's just it's also sometimes the things that women and anyone will do for strangers or just semi-strangers. You know, one person you've gone out with and had two drinks with. Like, I think sometimes we agree to things we really don't want to do. And then if we don't want to hurt someone's feelings, and at the end of the day, it's like, well, they're a stranger. And your feelings will come first.

Why should you be the least happy person in your life? Right. Right. That's such a great question. Isn't it? Isn't it? And that's why even beginning to turn towards oneself saying, like, I don't even know what I need because my life has been about other.

people's needs. And, you know, how someone responds to what you're saying, Ashley, like if you say that in the dating process, that tells so much about them. Because a lot of people will get really reactive, they'll get, you know, whatever. But it tells you a lot. And I think that's why just being honest, we should be excited about going out with someone. If we're not, we're getting valuable information. Now, we can feel a lack of excitement because we don't trust ourselves, but that's very different. And the one thing I wanted to say, too, is when We're afraid to set a boundary because we're afraid we're going to lose people. What happens, though, is that we lose ourselves to keep people.

And so all our relationships are actually all operating under the premise that they're only held together by me being absent to myself. Like, I'm not really that happy. I don't say yes, actually that much. I don't really want to. I don't actually smile that much. I'm not actually that nice all the time. Those are all prisons that we get stuck in. And walking out of that prison that we stay, and I think it's Roomy who says,

why do you stay in the prison when the door's right there? And that can feel really scary to set a boundary and potentially lose a relationship. But what you begin to experience is the experience of keeping self. And that's foreign. And it's so beautiful, though, once you process it. I agree. And just coming back to like knowing yourself, the more you do these things, then they become easier. Well, let's talk about this, like this thing?

This thing. Okay, so we asked you what you wanted to talk about today. I mean, you've been really generous with all these topics. But one of the things that you pitched us was we don't see our relationships as a way to liberate ourselves from old patterns. That if turned towards with curiosity, our challenges and our relationships can be the quickest path to our growth, development, and expansion. So we can break it. Yeah, we're not. And I was writing a text back to my podcast producer.

And I was like, I think this is what. Nailed it. Well, let's break down the first sentence, maybe. Let's go sentence by sentence. What is the relationship mean? So we don't see our... Let's just liberate. We don't see our relationships as a way to liberate ourselves from old patterns.

So let's talk about what you meant by that. Well, we don't, we're not taught to orient towards relationships as places that we get feedback of where we're not good at things. Or where we don't have a voice. or where we don't have boundaries. Like, we just see our relational patterns as just being our relational outcomes. Like they're fate, right, in some way that it's fate. And, you know, I will often say that fate

doesn't work for you unless you work for you. Like, if you're getting information from your relationships and your experiences and you're not actually turning towards them with curiosity of how can I be better, what skills do I need here. There's a quote from Eric Fromm, who wrote the book, The Art of Loving,

where he says, there's nothing that humans fail at more than love, and yet we do not take the time to learn how. And love is a skill. You know, as Stephen Covey says, love is a verb, like it's the actions we take. And the skills that go around preserving and protecting our hearts are really important, and they can be learned. They're not, you know, they don't fall on just lucky people. Although I would say it definitely changes if you're born into a family who has good boundaries, good self-expression. That's so rare because the relationship.

relationships that we're taught and that we have inherited are generally codependent. You know, they're generally about keeping the peace. They're generally about staying together at all costs. Well, the skill set that we require to stay together forever, absent of relational depth and communication, are not the same skills that are required for a deeply fulfilling relationship. And so I'm seeing, I think we're seeing as a collective, a complete revolution and how we relate and how we love. And that's a good thing.

You know, there's a writer. He wrote a book called The All or Nothing Marriage. And he says that the relationships of today are better than they've ever been. And I don't think that's a common belief that we've been taught. You know, like divorce isn't going up anymore. You know, relationships that started 15 years ago, more of them are lasting than previous. Of course, it depends on which country you're looking at, which places. But, you know, I think there's hope to that. Like, if you look at our more recent history, Have we ever been more self-reflective as a collective? Probably not. You know, the Internet offers us the ability to, in a way, tap into human consciousness, right, to see wisdom from different places. What a thing. And I think our relationships really offer us that is, where are we stuck? And humility is such an important thing that's required in relationship.

And I certainly haven't always had it. And I'm often afraid to touch it because what lives in humility is the acceptance of the truth I can be better. And if you accept the truth, you can be better, then it means you haven't been your best based on the new awareness you have. And so to honor a relationship is to change based on the information that comes in.

And if you don't change, you're going to feel anxious, you're going to feel depressed, you're going to feel shame. So that's a long answer to that first sentence. Maybe the second sentence, I don't even know. Well, we had asked you before we hit record about, what did you say?

Like, finding someone new... Oh, like, are you trying to work through your past trauma, in the new relationship with a new person and you said you can't if you can't if you change with that person yeah like a new partner requires a new you and that's the thing is I'm certainly a believer that sometimes the relationship I think that we can work most things out with most people if most people are willing to do that sometimes there's too much pain sometimes there's too much betrayal sometimes there's too much contempt and contempt is actually in the research one of the hardest things to rescue couples from. Contempt is things like rolling of the eyes. That's actually the most indicative

behavior of divorce. When your partner's talking, yeah, when your partner's talking, someone making a face of disgust about their partner, like those are really signs of deep pain, deep contempt. And moving to a new relationship, well, sometimes it is important to close it. You know, I think one of the things we've been taught through the vows that we've heard repeated over time is, till death do us part. They also had to honor and obey, but that's kicked it, you know. which is a good thing. And with this, till death do us part, I've often thought, is it the death, mortal death, like my actual death, or is it the death of the version of me that chose the relationship? And sometimes the most loving thing we can do in a relationship is leave. And starting

with a new person where it's fresh, who's got different values, maybe now similar values, as long as we are growing from our previous relationships and bringing a new version of us, I often get asked, you know, I want to get back together with my ex. How do I do it? And I'll be like, it shouldn't feel like you're going backwards. Like, it should feel like they're meeting you in the future based on your path of growth. And if they're there or not, you won't care if it's them because you're orienting towards choosing someone who's actually a good fit. We talk about that too, getting back with an ex.

There's no, like, you should, you shouldn't. Right. Blanket rule about it. It's like, what's changed? what does it look like this time around? Because certainly you're not going back to the same broken relationship that you both ended.

I mean, just obviously to clarify going into a new relationship as a new person, we just mean like growth. It's not just like you change your personality like a chameleon with every partner like your Courtney Kardashian. That's a funny reference. Actually, really nice job there.

That's funny. I'm surprised. Do you mean physically or emotionally? So I think about like, you know, can you get back with an X? And there are zero X's of mine that I would get back together with not because they weren't all nice people. FYI if they're listening. Yeah. We're not getting it.

Official statements. They know. They know. They definitely know now. They're never ever getting back together. They have known. Yeah, right. They've listened and sent me the text messages.

Hi, guys. Hi. You're listening. But she's grateful for the message for the lessons. Thanks for the dick. And we are never ever getting back together. Yeah. But I think about all my breakups, again, they were nice people, the sex was good, et cetera.

But all my breakups have been with people were circumstantially. We do not want the same things in life. We are not the same people. We do not have the same goals. And if those things are not present, I really truly believe you can't get back together. 100%. Yeah, I agree. Those are deal breakers, you know?

Those are the things that if it just doesn't align, you know. A lot of us won't act on our deal breakers, though, because we're too locked into the experience of connection. So we put, because we believe, oh, this is rare. I'll never find this again. We stay with people and circumstances that are helpful. And also the idea we were talking about new person, new relationship, that can also occur in the same relationship. Dr. Alexander Solomon talks about how in your lifetime you might be married to multiple

people, but it might be the same person. And I love that. Esther Perel in her book, State of Affairs, said something that really shook me. I read this before we ever started the podcast. But she said, you know, when somebody cheats and you stay together, that you have to accept that this is a completely different relationship now. Your old relationship's dad, this is a new relationship. And not that I've, I just, I don't think cheating is black and white.

I agree. I was the title of the episode. Yeah. We have had her on the show and she's phenomenal. But I do think you can have, to your point, a different relationship with the same person. It's just something has to like shake you to your core. Often in a fair will, of course, do that.

It definitely will. Well, Mark, unless you feel like you have anything, you're dying to cover that we didn't, we've loved the conversation. No, thank you so much for having me. I loved it. And I can't wait for you guys to do your podcast tour so we can do it in person. Yeah, and Boise.

Or no, Charlemagne. What? Close, close. Charlemagne. That actually would be a great rename, Cordelaine. Charlemagne. I mean, we know Charlemagne. It's really funny.

This has been so wonderful and insightful. We finally got you. I hope that you enjoyed it. Tell everybody where they can find you. Your website is fantastic. So is your Instagram. So let everybody know where they can find you. Yeah, so you can go to Create the Love on pretty much all the platforms and the Mark

Rove's podcast and my website, createthe love.com. And I also have an app called Mind, which is M-I-N-E-A-A-A-Postophy D. And that's where we teach relational and emotional wellness. So it's like top teachers in the world with live and on-demand classes, kind of like Peloton, but for emotional health. And you go to do you mind.com. So M-I-N-E-D. Cool.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much. This has been really wonderful. We really appreciate your time. Thank you. I'm so excited. I got to be here. Appreciate you.

Us too. Bye. And you guys know where to find everything you need for Girls Got to Eat at Girls Gotta Eat Podcast.com. Girls Got to Eat Podcasts. And Instagram. I never know what order I'm going to do this is. I decide in the moment.

Go off. You can get your vibrators at vibes only.com. And you can download the app on the app store. Android's coming very soon. It might be out. Listen. You go check it out. Let us know. And then you can follow us. I am Ash Hass on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter. Raina is Raina.org. We are Girls underscore got to eat on Twitter.

And I think that's it. Fives only on Twitter. Fives only on Instagram. Girls got to eat on Instagram. This is where I said that already. If you guys don't know where to find our stuff by now. This is where we've been losing them. And we'll see you guys next week. Have a good week, guys. Bye.