Girls Gotta Eat - Why Couples are "Living Apart Together" feat. Kelly Coyne, PhD

Episode Date: September 30, 2024

If you're into the prospect of sleeping or living apart from a partner (or just curious about couples who do this), this episode with writer and professor Kelly Coyne will give you everything you need to know! We talk about couples who live in the same home but have separate bedrooms, how this affects your sex life (and what sex experts think about it), and which gender benefits more from sleeping separately. We then discuss couples who have chosen to live apart long-term, and spouses who lived together then decided to live apart and how it impacted the relationship. Kelley shares stats and the current landscape of "living apart together" and we also discuss why more women are questioning marriage and whether it actually benefits them. Before Kelly joins us, we have updates on Ashley's engagement ring and Rayna's flirty contractor next door, and we debate the topic: Should couples be in the bathroom at the same time? Enjoy! Follow Kelly on Instagram @kelly_coyne and check out her website https://www.kellycoyne.com. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Thank you to our partners this week: Beis: Get 15% off your first purchase at https://beistravel.com/gge. Hungryroot: Get 40% off your first delivery and free veggies for life at https://hungryroot.com/GGE. BiOptimizers: Get 10% off at https://bioptimizers.com/girlsgottaeat with code GGE. Boll and Branch: Get 20% off and free shipping on your first set of sheets at https://bollandbranch.com/gge. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Only two-thirds of Americans want to share a bed with their romantic partner. It's kind of stunning, like, how many people actually don't want to do this. Totally. This podcast is a Dear Media production. Hi, guys. Hi, guys. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat. Welcome back.

Should we be cuffed up? You want to link for the whole episode? Yeah, I just want to feel close to you. We haven't been together enough. We're not going on a four-day vacation together tomorrow. How sexy is this? Rain and I right now are wearing our red-hot vibes. Why are you laughing?

We're going to do BDSM for this episode, you guys. Our sexy red kinklings. Yeah, we're doing red for fall. We did a whole red line for vibes only. So you want to hold hands? It's a nice little visual. So we're cuffed together. Yeah.

These are so sexy. We'll talk about it more. But I just thought it would be a fun thing to stay linked, the whole episode. Stay linked. All right, we'll jump into. We're going to thank our partners really quickly. We'll tell you about this. Yeah, happy cuffing season.

That was what I was trying to get to. It's cuffing season. Okay. Thanks to buy optimizers, get 10% off at bioptimizers.com slash girls got to eat with co-GGE and bowl and branch. Get 20% off and free shipping on your first set of sheets at bowl and branch.com slash gge. Yes, and thanks to Base, get 15% off your first purchase at base travel.com slash gge and hungry root. Get 40% off your first delivery and free veggies for life at hungry root.com slash ggee. Okay, so if you guys want to paint the town red this fall, our vibes only red line is out, red kinklings and red velvet blow gel. This might be my favorite blow gel that we've ever done. Favorite flavor. It's like chocolatey. It's not too sweet. And then we have like some vanilla frosting also. So it's just like a lot of like cakey, desserty type flavors. But this will make your mouth water and salivate. It's good on any body part, just an oral enhancer. So that's available vibes only.com and our sexy silicone kingclinks are red. Yes, this is the best red. I mean, it's truly is like that Ferrari red flavor. It's. I mean, it's truly is like that Ferrari redlap. color that we're obsessed with. And the kinklings are just these super soft silicone

stretchy handcuffs. They don't have any locking key. You're not going to get locked up at them. It's perfect to kind of start your bondage journey, if you will. They're just really fun to use. Throw them in your bag for an overnight trip or vacation and just turn up the heat in the bedroom. And then you can bundle them together with the red hot bundle, the red velvet suck and blow gel and the red kinklings. And that is the sexy red. We should have got sexy red to promote it. Speaking, I were red in the last episode. Speaking of Getting naughty. We just got back from Sin City. We did. Sin City.

Kicked off the tour with the most perfect show, the most perfect weekend. I mean, I don't even, no notes. You planned a great show. I planned a great trip. Yes, exactly. It couldn't be better. Also, we've just gotten back from Pittsburgh, Detroit, and Indianapolis, but Ashley and I are recording that ahead of time. So thank you guys for coming out. If anything crazy happens, we'll recap that.

But Vegas was amazing. Kicking off the tour has been incredible. Just being in the presence of you all is just, it's unbelievable. And we were able to do the show at the Consopolitan in Las Vegas. If you guys are there, I really can't recommend staying there enough. They have incredible theater. They have great restaurants. We had a wonderful dinner, Beauty in Essex.

I never left the hotel, not one time. No, I never went outside. That's not really my style. Like, I like to get out, see the sites. Did not leave the hotel. You do not leave the hotel. We had an amazing dinner. Like Raina said, Beauty and Essex Friday night in the hotel, then the show, then

marquee Saturday night. Everything is in the hotel. We had one meal, like in the food. food court. We had breakfast sandwiches. They've egg slut there. Egg slot. Yeah, long line for exlet. We had to go to this other place. But like the, also just wanted to be in the room. Best bathroom I've ever experienced my life. The bathroom was so sexy. And chandelie bar for cocktails. It never loved. It's three levels and we were able to, I mean, we're 20 friends with us come meet us for drinks. And it wasn't like crazy or terrible. I mean, I really can't recommend staying there enough. It's just like one-stop shop.

Everybody treated us so well. It was just a wild, fun weekend. A solid weekend in Vegas is like my favorite weekend. I mean, just two nights. tops. I can't imagine three. I can't. I don't know how people survive that. Like when we went in May, again, that festival got canceled, but like we still at the best time. Like regardless, I mean, because you can really just do a show. We were the show this time. But before, obviously we had our fancy dinner. Then we went to a show the next night. And you can just like do it that way. One thing I did not know that we were going to be on marquees all over the city, like the Aria marquee. Like the biggest marquees all over. Some weird friends drive in and they were like, you guys are everywhere. We're like pulling over to take pictures. I didn't think when we like

designed the tour poster that we would be a hundred feet tall my cleavage and Raina sucking her finger. But here we are. So we were just like your lips wrapped around that slice of pizza. I was like, I can't believe it's happening. Huge. Like I saw it when we were at the pool at the Cosmo. I like saw on the Aria marquee and like screamed. I didn't expect it. And it's like so huge and it's so special. And we'd never done Vegas. And it was a perfect way to kick off the tour. And it was like 20 of our friends and our whole team and I mean I just feel so emotional about how I want to Sparkle Eyes was there my fiance and just feel so excited about how it all went down the theme was wedding you guys dressed up so many so we're theming the whole tour and then we just did slumber party the next up is going to be

Halloween and then Western everybody dressed up we always tell you guys you don't have to but you really bring it and we might bring you on stage do a costume competition but the wedding theme like slumber party is so easy well I said to you I didn't know people were going to travel with their wedding dresses that's a huge amount of stuff so many wedding dresses Beetlejuice brides, bridesmaids, priests, like popes. I mean, crazy stuff, grooms, flower girls. Izzy was like the hottest flower girl, our friend Izzy. Always.

Yes, so we had the, we obviously thank you to the Cosmo and the way they treated us. And we had a table at Marquis afterwards. And we had an amazing dinner at Beauty in Essex and all that. But the pack drumline opened our show. They're the most iconic best drumline in the world. They've been at the Super Bowl. They were at the DNC. They're the drumline for the Chicago Bulls.

They did have a Vegas show. So they have a presence in Vegas, and they opened, they opened our Chicago Theater show last year, and they're just the absolute fucking best. That's all you can say. They run America's Got Talent. And they're just incredible. So they open the show. We walk out with them. It's just like so high energy and so crazy. And then we had Bobby Westside, who is our friend. He emceed and just got more naked as the night went on. And he's incredible. You guys should give him a follow on Instagram. Bobby X. West Side. He has this great app to find a trainer in New York City called Adonis. Just give him a follow. He's such an amazing content creator. He's like our on. staff content creed. I'm not to fire Ryan. No, Ryan made the most incredible hype video. So thank you to Ryan, of course. He made our hype video. Guys go back and watch it. It's like our favorite to date. And we had the Chippendales. It was the most iconic. All them were so hot. Yeah. They're just, they're incredible. They know exactly what they're doing. They were just so iconic. We've had so many strippers at our shows and dancers. And they're just wild. Their interaction with the crowd is incredible. Their preparation. The songs. It was amazing. They're the goats. I mean, they've been doing

I think 40 years. They have a show in Vegas. It's at the Rio. You guys can catch it. We highly recommend it. I mean, I can think of a better thing to go see. And we just got a taste of it at our show.

So they just did like one number. And it was unbelievable. And so we just want to hype them and tell you guys like, it's like, you can't go to Vegas and not see the Chippendales. I mean, they are Vegas. So go see their show. They did like a cowboy Western theme.

And some crowd interactions. Some people probably got some lap dances, felt some bare bodies. And yet we saw a lot. They show a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like we haven't done shows in Vegas ever.

And now I only want to do shows in Vegas. I know. Yeah. I know. It was really fun. And just shout out to Tessa. I mean, we took eight months off of touring and it's so hard to, like, jump back in and just, like,

have every single thing running perfectly. And you just juggled so much. You looked beautiful. I loved your outfit. Your fit was so good. And it was just a really fun, like, get the gang back together. A whole team was there. Our whole Vives team came.

I just, I loved it. Yes. Tessa crushed it. It's like you never took any time off. Just got right back in the swing of things. And yeah, we sold these incredible vibes only vibrator bracelets. We'll be talking more about them in the coming weeks. But they were so fun. They're only exclusively at the shows. And people were buying them and just buying them with their friends. And Rain and I made a little appearance at the merch table. And it was just really fun. Yeah. So it was a great trip. You guys. We just really loved it. And can't recommend all that stuff if you're planning a trip to Vegas also. I love a Vegas weekend.

I love getting to dress like hot and slutty. I love the outfits. It's like nothing is too much. Always a giant hotel room. I was like looking like I wore a costume. And I can do that in Vegas. Yeah. We're probably a little long winded on this,

but we just had some thank yous and just really wanted to hype how incredible this tour kickoff was. It was just really special for us to like be there or be on the marquees, like do the whole thing and like be like a Vegas act. I'm alive again. In the city. I loved it. So thank you to everybody who came and made the show so great. traveled for it. Yes, all of you who dressed up. And of course, Bobby and Ryan and the Chippendales and the Pack and Tessa and everybody. And we'll see you guys on the road. So another thing, sort of Vegas related, but also just life related, engagement related. I just wanted to talk about and share is that I changed my ring a little bit. And I wanted to talk about it. I don't know if anyone's like zooming in and noticing, but it's been a little different, the few different rings for the past few weeks. So if you're new here, I got engaged on August 30. first. And I mentioned this before that I got the ring that I wanted. Like, it's exactly what I had

like picked out for myself. I just thought I wanted something simple. I wanted a ruby and just kind of a simple gold band with the hidden halo. And that's what I got. And I like kind of expressed that with Raina. And it got passed along. And it wasn't like I had a Pinterest board. It wasn't like I sent him anything. It just was like, it's what I wanted. And that's what I got. And I don't really think I put that much thought into it. I think I've always known I wanted a Ruby, but I just guess I didn't think too much about the band. I didn't ever go try anything on. I just was like, here's what I want. Simple, easy, done and done. And that's what I got. And I just felt like it was a little plain and it just wasn't really me. And I had a lot of mixed feelings about it because I was like, this is what I

wanted. Like, this is what I asked for, you know, outright. But like, I got what I asked for. And it doesn't really fit me. And, you know, even my mom has said, like, I was surprised. I didn't really think it was you. And you've told me that, like, you and my friend who designed the ring were kind of like, you sure? She doesn't want any, like, diamonds on the side or she doesn't want a different type of band. And everyone's like, Ashley wants what Ashley wants, you know? And I don't know all the conversations that were taking place. But I think everyone was like, should we try to do something different? And I don't know. It was too much of a risk for me to add something to it. Like, I guess I was just like if she gets it, she doesn't like it, she can add to it. But like, you can't take away

from it. Like, our friend designed it. She did a great job. And Sparkle-I said sent me the photos and was like, what do you think of these different ideas? And I'd ask another friend of ours. It's like really into fashion. And it's a lot of pressure to like pick something for somebody else. Like, truly only you can pick what you want. Like, it's probably the only thing in the world I don't want another person to pick for me. Anybody else can pick like a dress for me or a backpack. A backpack. A backpack. Just a dress or a backpack. A backpack. A piece of a backpack. A piece of a backpack. the luggage or purse or shoes, but like, that's like the one thing I don't really want anything else. I don't need somebody else to be, even if somebody's like a really good friend who I asked,

she's my friend Taylor. She picks all my outfits. Yeah. I think she's the most stylish person, but like what she likes is not what you're going to like. So it's so subjective. And so I sent her these ideas and she was like, I don't know. Like these ideas could like not age that well. Like that's what's in style right now, but it's not really classic.

And we went back and forth and I was just like, let's not add a bunch of stuff. Because like she has requested this one thing and this is like a huge pivot. Yeah, so it's hard to like get an engagement ring from the person you love and you want to spend your life with and this thing you're supposed to wear forever and is super symbolic of this day and have to kind of feel like it's not what you want. And I honestly think if it was like something he picked out, maybe I would even felt differently. It would have just been more sentimental and it would have felt different than like I made a mistake here, you know? And on top of it, it was too big and that's not his fault. Like this was, this is on me. I mean, I have to say it's

half and half. I told him I was between a five and a half and a six. He went with six because God forbid you have a too small ring. What are you supposed to do? What a nightmare. And I'm actually a five, maybe even like a little bit smaller. So he went with the six to be safe. And that's a whole size up. So even if it'd been a five and a half, it would have, it's regardless, it's not like he just guessed. But like I kind of gave some misinformation. And bottom line, it was it was too big anyway. So we needed to get it resized. And I felt like that was an opportunity to just kind of expressed to him how I was feeling and talk to my friend who designed it and just be like, what can we do here? I love the stone. It's so special. It's a Burmese ruby. It's really rare.

They like work so hard to find it. Like the stone is like so absolutely perfect. But I just wanted to redo the band and have it be a little more blingy and a little more me. And so I talked to him. It was like a very emotional conversation and like I felt so terrible. And he was understanding. I think he was like a little bit bummed. He was just like, you know, the symbolize the day and he had it engraved. And so I don't know. It was like it was a hard conversation for me to have.

But he just wants me to be happy. And my friend, again, her name is Anushka and her company is called Aurora Fine Jules. And she's done a lot of jewelry for for me, for you, for our friends and stuff like that. And she was just like, I reset my engagement ring. It's no big deal. It happens all the time. It's like just the band. It's not like you hate your ring.

Like you love it. You just want it a little bit different. And we have to resize it anyway and it's fine. And, you know, I worked with her and she was in touch with him. And we put it on like a Pavay diamond band. And it fits perfectly. And it is the most perfect thing I've ever seen. I can't stop looking at it.

I feel like the way I like want to feel where I'm like, I'm just obsessed. I can't believe how perfect it is. I couldn't have imagined it being this perfect. It's so wonderful. I took the band from the first ring and I'm wearing that. And so I'm still got the. engraved and it's like on my other finger and the new schka got it FedEx overnight from the east coast to Vegas and it arrived at the day of the show so we had literally day of the show go pick it up in

the FedEx office and we like unboxed it together and it was just like a special moment and I just feel so happy and everybody I've talked to was like you should have what you want you know like if that's the advice I can give I mean everybody has a different way of going about this some people show their partner exactly what they want some people show their best friend always make sure they know your exact size go get at size make sure they have that But I don't know. I mean, I don't know what it would be like to have your fiance pick out something and then you hate it. That's a real hard conversation to have. But also, we've talked about this on an episode we did with Morgan from two hot takes with like that guy

that wanted to design it completely and not even get her input. And that's weird too. You know, so my situation was just me kind of making a mistake, kind of thinking I wanted something that I really didn't. And then being like, let's just make a small change and change the band. to a stone I already love and I could not be more happy. It's perfect. I'm glad you love it. You should look at it every day and feel like I can't believe I get to wear this. This is like the most exciting thing.

And I think anything less than that, it's like hard to give you the day. You all look at it all fucking day. Yeah. I think some people can like maybe initially they don't love it, but then they learn to love it, especially if it's something that their partner. I'm not going to learn to love it. Yeah. I mean, this is, I'm sure we have a million different stories of the whole spectrum of women

who weren't 100% pleased with their ring. And then they were like, but then I loved it, or we made a little tweak here and there. But I don't know. I mean, this is my story. Maybe if it had fit perfectly, I wouldn't have bothered, but I'm like, we got to change it anyway. Let's just do what I wanted, what I should have done in the first place.

And this is on me. And this was my mistake. And again, also, like, go try rings on and see if you want to thick. I like thick bands. I don't know what I was thinking. Like, you really long fingers. So to have like a thin, dainty band. Yeah, I'm not like a dainty jewelry girl.

Yeah. So anyway, just don't be all willy-nilly like I was. Oh, yeah, I just want a ruby and then just don't try on. That was crazy. Yeah. And like then people started to slowly be like, yeah, it was a little weird. It just wasn't you. It wasn't you. And it's, this is just, it's the perfect amount of bling. It's not obnoxious. Like, I look back at the ring that I chose years ago. Like, it's so gaudy and over the top. And like, I would have regretted that long term. But like, this is like the perfect amount of bling and it's shiny. You get to look at it every day and feel like, excited. And ultimately, the end of the day, like, I felt really terrible. You had to have that conversation with him. But, like, you gave, like, really specific instructions of exactly what you wanted to me, to Anushka to him. So, like, no one did anything wrong. Everybody gave you exactly what you wanted. And, like, we were trying to, like, interpret other things. We were like, I don't want to have a bunch of stuff you might not like. Yeah. So, and he was wonderful. He's so

understanding. He loves this. He's like, yeah, it looks better, obviously. It's beautiful. It has diamonds on it. It's, like, perfect. But I don't know. I'm mean to ask you, do you feel like, everyone's rings are huge. Do you think this is maybe with the more popularity of lab-grown diamonds, which we fully support, which they're no different. They just don't hold their value as well.

They look exactly the same. They're super quality. The only difference is they just don't age well, I guess. So I support it. But like, do you feel like you're seeing insane engagement rings? Yeah.

I've thought about this weekend before I was like, oh, you're just walking around rocking that. I'm also not accusing anyone of it not being a real diamond. I don't care if it's a real diamond. I don't care at all. It doesn't matter to me. Like, I don't, they're getting bigger. People are going crazy.

Well, I think these lab groans are like cheaper. People are going to Moisonite. Like, I just don't think it matters as much anymore. This is just an observation. I have no judgment around it. But they're getting to the point where I'm like, how is it even comfortable? Well, it's like, it's like, shoot. I also just like, don't want to be in public with something that big because like, God forbid somebody does think it's real.

And you're like. Or it could be real. Who does to say? God forbid it is real. He's just like, what? You just rob me? What am I going to do if somebody tries to rob me? Nothing.

Also, though, like, how awkward is it to get robbed for your engagement ring? You've got to pull it off. If you get mugged and they want one specific piece of jewelry, isn't that a little bit of an awkward moment? You're like, hold on, let me get my watch off. Here. You're like pulling your ring. Your fingers are swollen.

You're like, here you go. What are you supposed to do? They're like, we'll wait. We'll wait for this. Get some lube on that thing. I know it's not a funny thing to get mugged, but can someone wait. in with like how do you do it? You're like, hold on. Let me take my earrings out. I feel like it would be the hardest thing to take. No, earrings would be harder if I was shaking. But like it's not a here's my

purse and they run off. It's a like let me take off a tight fitting piece of jewelry. I feel like with a gun pointed at me, I could pretty much take off anything. But yes, it is. What if you swell? I'm not saying I wouldn't. I'm saying it's an awkward moment. What if you had somebody like holding you a gunpoint? You're like, listen, just be honest with me. This is awkward. And they're like, Take off your ring, Ashley. Then you're like, it's lab grown. And you're like, but it's silly, isn't it? I talked about this in my podcast.

Do you think anyone's getting mugged and they're like, it's lab grown, don't bother. Me? I would say that and I would also be like, I have children. I have children. I'm a mother. Please don't rob me. That's the first thing out of my mouth, so we try to rob me. I'm a mother.

I need this. It's always why I'd have kids. Oh my God. It's funny to think of what would be, what would you say, like, as you're getting mugged. My knuckles are swollen today. This isn't a liar. Really? This is an Hila. It's a deep cut for the millennials.

No, but I'm glad that you have what you want because that would be really, it'd be sad to look at your finger every day and be like, this is this symbol of this thing and I ordered it. I got what I wanted on the menu and. Oh, and then in the interim when it was getting done, I was wearing a dupe. Listen, it was nice. So I bought this. Can I get that right? I bought this Amazon dupe. What am I started wearing?

It's nice. It's probably a piece of glass that they, like, stained and like I really it's a nice ring. It's a nice ring. So if you're really zooming in, you've seen three different rings in the last three weeks and I'm telling you guys why now. Thanks for listening. Breaking her silence. Yeah. Breaking my silence. Okay. So again, we just got back from travels and we have our base bags. Obviously, this is the luggage that we all use in our family, all of our team. I mean, we're just obsessed. And we're going to be packing a lot. So they have you covered every size of suitcases.

for one. There's a small carry-on, a little bit larger carry-on. There's a medium check-in-roller and a large check-in-roller. I'm obsessed with my medium check-in roller as of late. I have a glossy black. I'm on their site now. This maple color, I'm obsessed with. So they always are launching new colors, but of course they have their classic colorways too. Oh, my glossy black. I'm just so obsessed with. And then all the toots, too, all their bags. We love the weekender, the mini-weekender, the east-to-west tote. What did you bring to Vegas? I brought my east-to-west. Oh, I bought my 29-inch that I checked. My East to West.

Okay. East to West is always with me. Well, sometimes you go East to West and I'm mini-weekender. I have that red mini-weekender. So whatever, we're always just doing it. And Tessa has the regular weekender. Tessa has the pink set. We got her that for Christmas.

Every piece is made to look better with Miles so you don't have to worry about it in cargo overhead. I love when I spot other people traveling in the airport and on the airplane that have their base bags too. So there's bags for your dirty laundry. There's the cushion handle we're obsessed with. And if you guys didn't know, this base was created by Shea Mitchell. the actress and model who wanted to create perfect luggage that's fashionable and functional.

We're obsessed with it. I just like, there is no other luggage brand for me right now. Like this is it and I feel like I'm a lifer. So you guys can join our club with Base. Right now, Base is offering our listeners 15% off your first purchase by visiting base travel.com slash GGE. Go to base travel.com slash GGE for 15% off your first purchase. That's B-EIS travel.com slash GGE. Okay. And over 75% percent of the population is magnesium deficient, unique spectrum, no other supplement on the market offers seven types of magnesium in one bottle like magnesium breakthrough. So I found out about this actually after I had surgery last summer and our plastic surgeon, who I just love so much. I think that

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you'll make sure your monthly supply is guaranteed. Okay. All right. So now we're back, I had the funniest interaction this morning. So you know, I'm like, I love the contractor next door. He's never going to finish that project. He's just going to be there for the rest of my life. He lives there.

But he's wonderful and he's so nice to me. And my packages get delivered to that house all the time because the entrance to my house is on the side of the street. It's the whole thing. So he gets my packages a lot. So he texted me this morning. The funniest text message. I have your package here.

The guy couldn't find your place. Probably something leather. Body question. IDK emoji. IDK emoji. Probably something leather. What? What?

I can throw it over your fence if you want or I'll hang on to it. I'll see if I'll see you later. I said leather is very specific. Immediately I thought dominatrix. Like is he trying to say like come over here and tie me up? Like were you fishing around in this bag? Did he smell it? Like, did you take your fingers and, like, wish around in it and be like, what's going on in this bag?

Who is out here playing, like, guess that fabric? Probably leather. And I said, leather is very specific. I can grab it in an hour and just toss it over the gate. He said, no worries. Not quite sure why I was thinking you're a leather kind of girl. What is happening here? Is this the one that was into Demona?

Yes. Okay. Not quite sure why I was thinking you're a leather kind of girl. My brain is frazzled today. I'll toss it over the fence. Are you guys going to fuck? Like, what is going on? I don't know.

I'll toss it over. Were you on the other side waiting? By the way, it was a wool sweater. So it wasn't even like when you, if you like squish the packaging together. It wasn't like a bag type thing. It was a bag. But like that's even more for him. You can feel that it's not leather.

So I don't, you got my package and you were like in my fantasies, this is leather. Did you write that back? Are you saying that in your fantasies you wish it was leather? Just start flirting with him. What's going to happen? Why aren't you into it? He's a little too old for me. Okay.

I like him a lot. And he did sort of ask me out the last time I was there. What would be the harm in getting a drink? There wouldn't. I just think it's good for the story. We're on tour. Because like this has been since day one of you moving here, you and this contractor. Like this is a rom-com in the making.

So for you guys, the last March, two marches ago, I moved in here and they start construction the day. The day, Ashley and I finished building the studio at the day. And they are excavating the entire. ground. It is so much noise. I'm beside myself. I'm hysterical. I'm like, how long is this going to last? So I ask the owner of my house for the phone number of the owner next door. He gives me the contractor's number. So I'm on the phone with this guy crying. Yes. You cried to him and he told you comfortability wasn't a word. Yes. This is your man and I'm sorry. And I still haven't seen him. It feels like a secret person.

He feels like your imaginary. It feels like your imaginary. He's a little, he's shorter. He's like five, seven, five eight maybe. But he's handsome. Yeah. He's got gray hair. I really like talking to him. Every time I go over there, I'm just, I really like talking to You just keep saying all these great things. He's too short for me. And he's too old for me. You can't be both. You can be one, but you can't be both.

I promised Amy Chan, who has been on our show, and she's going to do a little dating coaching for me. And she made me promise that I would raise my age limit on my dating apps and lower my height limit. And I said, you can have one. Okay. Okay, that's fair. This is like the hot crazy matrix. That's fair.

Okay. I can't be dating 50-year-olds that are five-on-five. I can't do it. I bet they can dick you down. And they're going to be great partners. He's already down there. They're really worn out. I don't want somebody who's worn out.

I can't do both. I can't do short and old. You do when someone's worn out. You're a yapper girlfriend and you need an old, tired, listener, boyfriend that can still fuck and make fun of you and is into leather. He just got a package of mind. I was like, in my fantasies, it's leather. Because I was like, oh, it's the vibrators or something great.

I thought you were going to find some little box. No, those come here somehow. He's like, yeah. it's weirdly vibrating. I'll throw it over the fence. He's like, this one's probably not leather. So, anyway. Can you bring that one in, actually, and come up to my bedroom? Just say that next time. Just come up.

Why don't you be like the door's unlocked? Can you bring it in? I'm on the third floor. Rita! You have so many openings. Okay, so Amy is also making you go on a bunch of dates. And this is an easy one to just book. I don't want to. He's old and short. By the way, 50's not old. It's just a lot older than me. It's not that much older. It's a lot older. Yes, it is. okay. I'm not as old as you, actually. It's a lot older. I haven't broken 40 yet, okay? It's a lot

older. 50 is a lot older than me. Wait till this bitch breaks 40. I'm never going to forget it. I'm still going to be older than her, but you'll still be older. I remember this one time I met this girl and we kind of, we're sort of friends. I don't know. We've lost touch, but I went to meet her on her birthday and her birthday was July 10th. This was a girl I was doing like a Hampton's house with way back in the day. and I hadn't really met her, but I was doing the house. So I was like, I'll go to her little birthday bar thing in New York City. And her birthday was July 10th and mine's July 9th and same year. And as we're walking away at the end of the night, we say goodbye.

So we say goodbye to me. You can't wait for the Hampton. She goes, remember, I'll always be younger than you, bitch. I was like, one day. I was the funniest mic drop. Yeah, I loved it. And that's then into this conversation too. Teser, is your dad even 50?

How old are your parents? They are 52. 52. That is so young. Okay. So today we have Kelly Coyne on, and she's so wonderful. And I just have to say that before we recorded, she was like, I haven't done a podcast before. And I'm an academic. And I can tend to ramble. And I was a little like, oh my God, here we go. And she was so wonderful. I like, she said it. She said, in academia, you're rewarded for that. For being long winded, basically. Yeah. Yeah. And so there was a funny callback to it as I was editing the interview that you're probably like, where did that come from? Like, are you making fun of long-winter professors? Maybe. No, I'm just kidding. Just Andrew Huberman. Some people need to learn when to shut up.

Yeah, why am I protecting Andrew Huberman? No, he's so long-winded. It's crazy. We couldn't get a word in when we had him on this podcast. It was crazy. But she was so wonderful. She's so tight. I mean, the interview's amazing.

We're really excited for you guys to hear it. But this, something we wanted to talk about that kind of correlates is this article that kind of went viral in August. And we're reading the headline from people. And it says, girlfriend, who refuses to share bathroom with boyfriend in the morning sparks debate. So basically, she's shared on a Reddit, Ami the Act. asshole. And she said her and her boyfriend moved into a one bedroom flat last month. They share a single bathroom. And she just basically says she doesn't want him in the bathroom. She says he started coming in the bathroom when I'm in there and I'm using it. She said they both leave early in the

morning and she was left feeling uneasy after her partner expressed that sharing the bathroom is not that weird. And she said, this is also my first long term relationship. So I don't know if this is normal and I'm just making a big deal about it. But the flat is tiny. I just want some space. I feel like we're on top of each other. And so there's comments that debate it. But I mean, I have mixed feelings on it. but she's like, I just want a little privacy to, like, do my makeup, probably. You know, like, I just want to get ready. And what I'm assuming is a tiny bathroom, probably without a double sink. To me, it's about the double sink of it all.

Do you have a double sink or not? If not, like, how are we even in here together anyway? Also, are we in a rush? Like, probably, maybe. I don't know. Who knows? I'm confused about, like, is she talking she doesn't want to brush her teeth in the same sink as somebody or she doesn't want somebody going to the bathroom while she's

doing her makeup or she doesn't want to do her makeup in front of somebody? Like, I'm wondering, like, at which point of this? Or is she just like all of this I would just like to do by myself on my own time. Yeah. And this comes up in the interview today. A lot of this is about literally space. Is there space? Are you in my fucking shit and annoying me?

Like spitting out your toothpaste over my shoulder. Uh-huh. You know, like am I trying to do my contour and you're in here trying to brush your teeth? I mean, we're just too cramped now. Can I just have a moment? You said this one viral. There's people saying that like, what, she's being unreasonable? Someone was just like, this is what you do in a relationship, you know?

And someone was just like, my hubby and I've been together almost 30 years, first of all, when people say, hobby, I can't. And the only time there's no sharing is when we're pooping. I mean, this is just, I think a matter of like her expressing her boundaries and just like, listen, I just sometimes I just want to do my makeup on my own or brush my teeth on my own. And he should be like, I get it. And maybe we can compromise and work this out. And then every once in a while, they might have to be in there together if they're in a rush and that's okay. And she can't freak out when this happens once a month or something, you know, because that's what happens in relationships. You can't always just,

sure. Things aren't always perfect 100% of the time. I mean, it never even like crossed my mind to share a bathroom. I've lived with three men. It has never crossed my mind because I've never had a bathroom that was big enough. Like I've lived in New York City my whole life. I've never had a bathroom where I couldn't be sitting on the toilet touching the sink and the shower at the same time.

Like there's no space. There's barely room for a second person, let alone like you're crouching over me. I don't need it. I've never experienced it. Never crossed my mind that there could be two people in the bathroom at the same time. Unless we're in some crazy rush. Also, you could go brush your teeth in the sink in the kitchen. Yeah.

The kitchen. I mean, do you have a double sink or not? That's what it's about. Like, I had a share bathroom with my brother growing up. We didn't have a big house, but by the grace of God, we did double sink. I can't really imagine how that would have gone. That would have been a traumatic childhood. Like, we each had a little sink at least, you know, to like be in the mornings getting ready.

I mean, and I have one now. Like, I guess in my New York City bathroom, again, just still one sink. but it was pretty spacious. Remember that weird big bathroom? So I could see a world in which I'm in there doing my makeup and he comes in. He wants to gel his hair or something like that. But for the most part, like a tiny cramped space. Like, yeah, can I just be in here alone for a minute?

I get it. I don't know. It's so funny. It's just would never cross my mind to show the space with somebody. Like there's certain scenarios. Yes, you have a long countertop and you guys are both getting ready. You go out to dinner and like you're both doing your hair. Yeah.

But like, I don't know. You don't need to be in here while I'm blowing my hair dry. Can I just like put my makeup on and come out of the bathroom? and you go like, wow, you look amazing. I don't need you to watch it all come together. Yes. I wonder if she ever wants to shower with him, though, because you know I like to shower with my partner.

Like, I wonder if she's like hard limit, stay out. Because then you don't ever get any sexy come in the shower moments. Yeah. But maybe that's excluded from what she's talking about. I mean, also of all my apartments, I never really had a shower I could share. I mean, the longest I lived with somebody was four years. And it was one of those showers that like, it was like one of the stand up. Like one person could fit in it.

There was no chance he was coming in there with me. Honestly, none of my shower. would have really been comfortable for another person. I'll read you some of these because I found it interesting. Yeah. There's a comment, been with my husband. People always like to brag about how long with their husband. I guess it adds to your argument.

But anyway, been with my husband for 17 years, have always shared the bathroom. Seriously, if you can't handle this, then I don't know why you would want to be in a relationship. Grow up. And then someone says a more mature thing. If it makes someone uncomfortable, the others should respect it, divide the time up so each has their own private time in the bathroom. But do only things that need to be done there, you know, because, yeah, you don't want to be in there for an hour, I guess.

And then someone says, we've been married for 51 years, and the one thing that we do not share is the bathroom. Always one, then the other. Someone says, only one at a time. Someone says, I grew up sharing a bathroom. I don't care. Who cares? We all have different privacy needs and expectations. Just communicating.

Yeah, I grew up sharing a bathroom. My brother. He's allowed to look at me with bad breath and looking like shit and crazy hair. I don't want my, I don't need my partner to be around for it. I cannot believe that when I was like a bratty teenager, I had to be in the bathroom with Matt. I know. Arlin and I, there was only one bathroom in my house. We shared it every morning.

I wish I could like have memories of this. Like my brother, my brother was probably scared to come in. Like he was probably like, I don't go in there when I actually said there. Like a hormonal teenager? Yeah, I don't honestly, I don't remember how we did it. Also, what do boys need to do? Probably nothing. Yeah, like he wasn't doing anything.

I probably did my hair in my bedroom and I didn't even know what makeup was. I was ugly back then. So there's no chance. Did you were makeup in high school? Yeah. Would you wear? Like mascara eyeliner? You don't wear makeup in high school?

I don't think so. Foundation? I really do not think I did. I think I was just raw dog in life. What? No makeup in high school? I had like F-sized boobs. I don't think I even looked at my face for four years.

Definitely I've always done, it's not that I even wear that much makeup now, foundation, probably a little under-eye concealer, a little blush and a little mascara. Obviously, I wasn't doing anything with my brows. Oh, I did do some eyeliner. I would like a blue. I remember like a blue eyeliner. For dances? Probably for prom.

You definitely were makeup to prom. But I got my makeup done for those things. Oh, I didn't do that. I wasn't rich like that. No, I went to Alta. And I was like, I'll buy this blush if you do my makeup. We didn't have an Alta. I was rich like that.

Yeah, I don't think I ever wore makeup. Not because I thought I was like too pretty to wear makeup. I just didn't know how ugly I was. That's what it was. I wasn't like a dick, you know, I didn't have to have it on, you know, but I definitely wore makeup in high school. I was super into it. I feel like that's when you start getting so into it.

No, I wish I was. I wish I would have. It wasn't part of my experience. All right. Well, anyway, that's the bathroom conversation, kind of leads us into our talk today. But before that, we're just going to talk about a few partners. I am telling you about hunger route. Okay, it has never been more important while we're touring because I just don't have time

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Bull and Branch office free design consultation so you can build your dreamiest bed with a dedicated stylist. I've never heard of this in my life. Best of all, Boland Branch gives you a 30-night worry-free guarantee with free shipping and returns on all U.S. orders of $100. or more. Start getting your best night's sleep this fall with Bowling Branch for a limited time. Get 20% off plus free shipping on your first set of sheets at Bowlenbranch.com that's Bullen Branch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D Branch.com slash G-GE for 20% off and free shipping. Exclusions apply. C-Sight for details. All right. Let's get into it with Kelly.

All right, guys. We're really excited to welcome our guest today. She is the faculty at Georgetown. She has a PhD in cultural studies from Northwestern. Her work has been featured in the New York Times, The Washington Post, New York Magazine, NPR, Good Morning America. She came to us as a listener of the show. We're very happy to have her here. Please welcome to the show, Kelly Murray Coyne. Thank you both so much for having me. I'm very, very honored. And it's so cool to meet you too in person. Yeah, we love it. You sent us a great pitch. I mean, you know, plenty of listeners have pitched us. And they're like, I love to come on your show. I mean, I love it to shooting their shot. But I kind of thought it was another one of those. And then I read it. And I was like, oh, this. speaks to my soul. And she's published in the New York Times and Washington Post. You sent us to

like some really heavy hitter articles that you had published. And they were so interesting because what you sent us was about alternative lifestyles essentially with your partner, whether it's not living together or the father being the main parent in the home. State of Dads. Yes. That's what that's what it is. And not living together or not sleeping the same beds. And it was a great pitch and great information. Well, the main part you said was that I inspired you. So we'd love to talk about that. I'm kidding. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, when you were talking about how, like, I never, like, I don't think I ever want to sleep in the same room with your. Yeah, I mean, I've walked that back, I guess.

You guess. Well, all the idea and people are actually doing it. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about your background. What got you, what kind of cultural studies do you do? What made you sort of research this topic? So I did, my master's in English.

So my background is really in books. And I look a lot at genre, which is like the horror genre or the gothic genre. and genre is all about satisfying the expectations of your audience. And then you can bring, you know, literature genres into television and film genres. So, for instance, you know, the horror movies come from the Gothic genre, which is a book genre. And then I ended up doing my PhD and media and cultural studies. And something that I found really fascinating when I started talking to people, you know, previously I was just doing criticism, like, like books.

and movie criticism, was that life also has certain conventions. And there are ways that, you know, I think that we prescribe a certain life path for women in this country. And if you think about that as a genre, I think it's just fascinating. Like, are there opportunities for our lives that we can't even see because we don't have examples of other lives? Oh, my gosh. I didn't think of that.

As like parts of our lives being a genre, we think of music and we think of books and we think of TV. And yeah, you are a trope. I am a trope. We're all a trope, yeah. Well, like first comes love, then comes marriage, then comes babies. Like, that is a genre. Right.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And so, like, it doesn't have to be that way. Yeah. It used to be the case that, like, when people lived outside of that prescription, there was a lot of shame or something was wrong or it was broken. But now people are breaking the prescription by choice. And I just think that's fascinating.

Absolutely. I mean, we love these articles and we pulled our audience. And, and, you know, we love these articles. And we'll get into would you sleep in separate bedrooms with your partner and would you live in separate homes. But so much came up about safety, the cost of living, division of chores. When do you have sex? When do you spend time together?

Who does the household things? Raising children, all of that. So there's so many factors that go into it. Everybody has a very different idea of what they would do. And it seems like also at different life stages and different ages, this changes. Yep. Did me talking about this really inspire you to look into this more? I mean, we were joking about it, but I mean, thank you. That's like an honor. It's interesting because I spoke about these things when I was single. And I still stand by the concerns of being a super independent person and then living with somebody. And I will end up living with my partner. I'm assuming here in L.A. And then who knows after that. But he's an easy person to sleep with. I think if he was a crazy snore or something like that, it wouldn't work. I think sleep is very important.

my parents slept sleep separately, a lot of it because my dad just snore so loud. I mean, I would like wake us kids up when we were kids. And they're happy, but they're married, you know, 40 plus years. And we'll talk a lot about it. But I think, I think a lot about the space. I think a lot about the home. I don't know if these are things people consider. I would not live with him in a one bedroom, one bath apartment. I wouldn't do it. I think it would be bad for the relationship. And sometimes I wonder how much people take that into account, like square footage matters, bathrooms matter, size of beds, closets, like those are the little things that start to annoy you you about your partner and take away some of the sexiness of it all when you're on top of each other.

And so when I think about living with him, I picture the home, I picture the space. I picture us having our own space. And that's also not everyone's luxury. We want to recognize that everyone's like, yeah, well, I don't have, I can't live in a big home. Or, you know, I want to live my partner. We can't afford to live in different homes, you know, so I just want to say that up top. I'm rambling now. I'm the academic in the room. We were talking about. I just want to say a lot of these things up top because people have heard me say these things. And we say all the time, you can change your mind. You know, it's not that you're a hypocrite or you're contradicting yourself. It's just that people come into your life and it changes kind of the way you think about things. I want to find when I told you that. I feel like on the pockets, I've said you're speaking about a hypothetical partner when you find somebody you might want to be with them all the time. Because I lived in three New York City. I lived in three tiny New York City apartments with men, all of a studio one time. I'm a studio one time. You know, time I lived in a bedroom but it had a double-sized bed with my boyfriend for like four years. I lived in my last apartment with my ex also. You lived with him for four years in that apartment? Yeah. Oh my God. I mean, I lived with boyfriends. And I mean, what a luxury to be able to say,

I don't want to live with my partner. What a luxury financially to say, I want two separate bedrooms. I want extra. I mean, you're talking about the one percent of the world that could afford something like not living with a partner. Not the one person, but, you know, like a double primary suite. I always said. this one house one time we rented it for a bachelor party and it was the first time I'd ever seen two identical primary sweets identical same size I was like whatever they got going on is like a dream of mine it unlocked yeah a genre I hadn't thought about well the other thing is queer communities and black communities have been living this way forever and we never recognize that like you know black communities and black families the black nuclear family has been torn apart since the days of slavery

And so we can look to those two communities for examples of these living arrangements. Like queer communities, you know, you would get kicked out of your house and you would have to go live with your friend for a bit. Or like there's this new thing called the Ma Mune, where women who have been left by their husbands move in together to share the cost living expenses and raise their children together. Like there are ways to temper the costs and make this affordable, but it can be really hard to see those because, they've been so kind of obscured oftentimes by shame. And like, this is not the way you're supposed to live. And people live with their grandparents. But we don't talk about that.

People live with their aunts and uncles. You can live with a cousin. You can live with your sister. And you can still be married to someone who lives, you know, maybe with his brother. Like, there are so many options out there. And people have been doing this for a long time. But it's only recently that it's starting to be recognized in mainstream media is actually aspirational. So I'm glad that you brought to stigma erratic because I think that and you talk

on your article is that separate bedrooms or homes sometimes used as a euphemism for a failing marriage or a failing relationship. And a lot of our audience doesn't see it like that. A lot of people don't see it like that. Psychologically, it's better for them to live separately or sleep separately. Obviously, they get a better night's sleep, things like that. So can we talk a little bit about the stigma around it? Yeah. I mean, I always think of that line for mean, Gretchen is like, I mean, her parents totally don't sleep in the same bed anymore if you know what I mean. Like, it's always been this, like, something is wrong in that house. Like, this is how we know the truth of their relationship, which is they hate each other. And the stigma really seems to be pervading the

older generations, you know, so I know someone who's in her 40s and her parents just think that sleeping apart from her husband is like the death now to their marriage. Where Gen Zers that I talk to, it's a totally different thing. And I think, honestly, part of this is like, queerness has become so much more mainstream that Gen Zs are kind of, you know, of looking out for stigma and they often push against it in ways that the older generations haven't. I like that you said. I think the quote that I wrote down is that Gen Z and millennial members tend to see these subjects as a negotiation or in a relationship, whether it's parenting, finances or work, that they're more willing to sort of have these conversations. It's not a

foregone conclusion that everybody will live together and sleep together all the time. Yep. So let's talk about to start not sleeping together. I mean, you have chosen to live together with a partner, but you have separate bedrooms. And you wrote an article about this. There's what, a New York Times and a Washington Post one. And we're going to talk about them together, but separately. But I think was it the Washington Post? Sleeping apart was Washington Post. So what did you find? And what did the sleep experts say? Yeah. And let's talk about the sleeping separately of it all. This is so under research. Okay. It was very difficult to find, like for the Living Apart article, I could pull on census bureau data. We have that data. But this is very

understudied. And we do have a survey that was conducted in 2021 that says only two-thirds of Americans want to share a bed with their romantic partner. You know, it's kind of stunning, like how many people actually don't want to do this. Totally. And sleep experts, the ones that I spoke to were like, I have no concerns about this. The relationship experts I spoke to had no concerns. The people that did seem to have concerns were sex therapists and couples therapists. Okay. But the actual like neuroscientists were like, no, better sleep leads to better sex, better intimacy. Better life, better happier life. Yeah, exactly. And so experts say that, you know, they, they can track that there are a lot of people who sleep better when they're alone. Women actually tend to reap the benefits of sleeping separately

from their partner more than men do. Because men snore more. There are a few reasons for it. Snoring is one of them, though. Okay, so what are the other reasons? There's like stuff with circadian rhythms. Okay. And they're less sensitive to, like, if someone else wakes up in a room, there's something called like sleep contagion, where if someone else kind of like comes into the bedroom, they're less likely to be woken up by that where a woman is more likely.

We love those lines. Living free like that. I can't. My fiance, I've never seen anything like it. It's the thing I'm the most jealous of in the world. He falls asleep immediately. It's no. I'm like, do you not have any anxiety?

What happens at night in your head? immediately. And then he can wake up in the middle of night, go right back to sleep. Yeah. Like sometimes I'm so wake up and he'll check my text and I'm like, oh my God, I shouldn't have sent him up. No, he goes right back to see. No issues. He's me. I'm like, you'll send me a text message to 10.39. Yes, you guys are similar. I am out. But interesting. I'm jealous. But I see what you're saying. But I see what you're saying is that women actually tend to have, it's a hugely blanketed thing. But for women, it's more anxiety, more stress, more things on their mind. Men, nothing's going on there. Sometimes, Raina, you're still a woman because you've said that you wake up sometimes in a minute you can't go back to sleep. He's never, he can't relate to that once in his life. And I didn't know what to do. I was lost in this world. I didn't know what to do. But I am outside of the norm.

But I, so I want to talk about the sex. Because I said to Raina yesterday, I said, my least favorite type of sex is get into bed, pajamas on, and then have sex. It is the least spontaneous. It's the least sexy. We do it. It's great. It's intimate. But that is my least favorite type of sex. is ready for bed sex. So to me, but then Raina, she made a point. She's like, but I love morning sex, which, you know, you lose a little bit of that. But you creep into his bed in the morning, you slip in there. But to me, I'm like, sex is so far out.

Sex and sleep are different. I mean, sleep, you're unconscious. Like, there's a quote in your article that was like, what do I care what we do when we're unconscious? Yeah. It was very, I love that quote. So I think it's funny that that plays into it. People associate getting in the bed and sleeping with sex.

And I don't really, like, one of my favorite things is like, you've been out at night, you walk in the door to throw the person. on the floor, you start going out, that you move it to the bedroom. Like, that's so far from when we're even getting into bed. Yeah. But you're a very new relationship. That's fair. But like, I want to preserve this stuff.

We don't have children. So, like, people... Children is a whole other. You don't have children. So, like, I do understand people saying, where do we have sex? There's kids all over the fucking house. So what did people, what did you find? Also, what did sex therapist say?

Yeah, I'm very curious. The thing with both of these stories is that I think it's a little self-selecting who wants to talk to me. Like, the people who want to talk to. to me about these living arrangements, like, are very happy and loud and proud. Yeah, exactly. So I'm hearing from people who are very, very happy. Totally. And often it's the woman who want to talk to me. And I find that women are the ones who are often initiating these kinds of arrangements. You know, I mean, yeah, yeah. But in terms of sex, I mean, my editor had a cut a quote from the, from the post article because she was, she was like, the source sounds like she's bragging about her sex life a little bit. Like, it was so intense.

the stuff she was telling me. She was like, if we have a few hours off, like, we go right at it. Like, we know that if one of us gets a day off, like, it's going to happen sometime that day. Like, and she was going on and on about how good their sex life is because it sounded like they were a couple where they don't really like the, like, let's get on our pajamas and then let's have sex. And something else that I found is that often, like, the men's rooms are not as clean as a woman's rooms. And it's like a turnoff for the woman to have to, like, have sex in a bedroom where it's not like perfectly you know to her preferences yes you interviewed somebody and i like to another hold of you so that they often have sex in her bedroom yeah yeah well and this isn't

even like women necessarily being like oh you're so gross i mean that can be part of it but we talked about this with emily morse like we are just so much more easily distracted by what's going on in the room you know there's like a pile of laundry over here like these things matter to us in terms of our libido and what is able to take us you know outside of our head and get inside of our body and So those things do matter. Those distractions matter. Well, what did a sex therapist say as it being not a good thing to separate your bedrooms? Yeah.

There was another Times article that was talking about. It was really talking to sex therapists about it. And I was kind of stunned to read how many of them were like, this is not good, even though the science is backing up that this is good for intimacy. This is good for health and sleep quality as long as the couple is on the same page about it. Like, you don't want to push someone into this who doesn't want to do it because that's just going it caused resentment. But the sex therapist who had concerns were saying that perhaps there's something about checking in with your partner at the end of the night and not having that opportunity

might kind of preclude sex from happening. Okay. I can really see that happen. You have children, you come home. The focus is homework, make dinner for everybody. One do you really have time together apart from your children unless you're in your own bedroom? So I understand that just being like another barrier to being together. Yeah. Well, I'm curious. your researcher, if you've talked to people, that this doesn't have to be every night. I don't know. To me, I'm kind of like, sometimes we do fall asleep together. And then for me, it would be probably a matter of I'm always going to go to bed a little later or whatever you have going on. I mean, couples have different schedules, of course. Yep. So when I'm going to bed after him, I sleep in my

bedroom. So vice versa, he does so he doesn't wake me up. But if I were to do this, which I don't know what the future holds for me because I sleep with him right now, I'm sure it would be a mixed bag. Yeah. If we were, you know, I don't know. I don't see a world in which every night I wouldn't sleep with him. We don't have any super glaring issue like a snoring situation. So I'm sure some couples do both. I don't know. You tell me. I was so grateful because they spoke to a couple's therapist who was pretty, she was the one who was most concerned about this. And she was like, but it's not one size fits all. Like you can share a bedroom on the weekends. And you can, you know, exactly. Share the bedroom on the weekends

and split up during the week. But something that I also found like really interesting anecdotally is I was at looking at like couches. And there was a couple there looking at pullout couches. And they said, oh, we're looking for pull out couches so that, you know, my husband can, can have his own place. And it's for work. Like the reason he needs his own place to sleep is because of his job. He is really crazy shifts. And I found that Americans often, like, we have this tendency to justify non-normativity by invoking work rather than like, oh, this is just my preference. Totally. Well, they have to defend these decisions that are a little outside the norm. It feels like you have to defend yourself as though you are cold, as though you're immovable,

you're really rigid. I mean, I am somebody that everything wakes me up in the room. I can go right back to sleep. But if you're moving around in bed, you go to the bathroom, it will wake me up. I'm always ready for a break-in. So I'm just like, I'm just, I stay alert. But I need eight hours of sleep. Like, if you see me after seven hours, like, I'm not good.

And if you are in and out, if your job wakes me up, you know, it would be tough for me to live with somebody. I've lived with three boyfriends. I've always lived in the same bed as them, of course, and I dealt with it. But I didn't have the option then. Yeah. So I don't know what I would do today. If you're rooting around late at night, you're doing stuff, you're coming to bed at four or you're leaving, you're leaving it for 6 a.m.

Yeah. Like, I don't, I got to like deal with you, turn the lights on, the clothing. Right. And that's the thing, too, the getting up, like shuffling around in the dark, getting ready. Like, I don't want you to have to do that. You know, if you're my partner. It's just like so certain times it's just like, oh, in your room, you know, be in your own closet, because I'm never sharing a closet.

I can't imagine that's the closets and bathrooms feel so sacred, you know, if anything. I just wonder how this changes throughout age and life stage because, yeah, at the beginning of a relationship, it's inconceivable to not go to sleep, cuddled up to the person, even if you roll away from each other, like, an ex of I and I, for four years, like, we wouldn't sleep on top of each other, but like, we would have like a body part touching at all times. It was like my butt would be touching his thigh. Like at all, you just want to know that like their presence is there. Yeah.

And I really love waking up with him. This is not something I'm interested in right now. I mean, we'll see what happens in our relationship. I could walk all this back. I mean, I found the love my life. Things change. Yeah. So I really love waking up with him.

I love seeing him there. You know, this sounds so corny. But like if I have a bad dream, I like, I wake up and he's there. So I'm in my soft girl era. But it's just, we'll see. Yeah. And that's the thing, too. Like, we always say that.

Rain and I can't stress enough. You can change your mind. Yeah. Yep. Like people change their mind all the time. Things change. So Ashley and I both, I mean, all of our parents, my dad, my mom and her parents, sleep in separate bedrooms to have for a long time and started that after we moved out, all of us. So my stepdad, I think as soon as I went to college started like sleeping in my bedroom sometimes because he sores. And it's just tough for them to like stay in the same bedroom. Ashley's parents have separate bedrooms, my dad and his ex-wife. Do you see this as like a phase of life thing? Did that come up at all? The reasons people are entering into the arrangement differ by age, I found. And I mean sleeping in separate bedrooms, not separate homes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I did not hear many young women talking about their male partner snoring, where all of the woman above a certain age were saying it's because my husband sounds like a truck. Like one woman I interviewed said that her neighbor, which I was stunned, her neighbors could

hear his snoring from outside of the house. And it was a joke in the neighborhood. The kids knew, you know, it was his whole thing. That's crazy. He needs to get checked out. Yeah. I mean, in the seat, they talk about how the CPAP machine is like very unattractive to them, which I get. No, I don't want to see that. Like it's scary. Your mom's getting the ick after like she's married to your dad for 40 years. She's like, he gave me the ick. That's CPAP. Yeah. I mean, some people sleep with like a face mask and a retainer and you're like, I'm not trying to wake up and have somebody see this. Yeah. No, you tape your mouth shut. I know. Yeah. But I really was blown away by the response.

from people. People are very polarized in this. Like somebody said, what are they, sexless roommates? And somebody else said, I'm 56. Wait, you're 56. I love it. You know, like, it's very, very polarizing. People said, you know, I love to cuddle. Like, how would I do that with them not being here? Other people are like, you do what you got to do.

You know, people really have a lot of... Practical saves marriages. Yeah, this comes for our audience, by the way. We're just reading some of their responses. Someone would love the option. Some nights, some nights I just want to be alone and rot. There's that. You, like, sometimes you just want to be, like, ugly and rotting. Yep, exactly. And not thinking about it. That is so true. Sometimes I wake up so ugly. I send Ashley pictures. Yeah. What if a man saw this?

Yeah. Well, yeah. And that was something I found with the Living Apart Together article is there's this, like, amazing. I saw TikTok where it was like a girl, like on a Friday night, not knowing that her boyfriend was coming in. And she's like on the couch with like her like acne cream all over her face. Like plate right here. All of that. And like sometimes to not have that gaze on. And like, sometimes to not have that gaze on. And like, sometimes to not have that. on you, like this imaginary, like, do I look acceptable right now to my partner? It's freeing, you know? But then it's more fun when you get to put it back on for him if you want to. Okay. Well, so you mentioned living apart together. Yeah. So let's transition into this. I mean. To living apart apart apart. Being a part. What is it? So yeah, it's called living apart together. Good. That's what sociologists call it. Oh, it's LAT. LAT. LAT. LAT. Is that the thing? LATs. Yeah. Lats like wags. Yeah. So you wrote this article. in the New York Times about this inspired by me. I'm just kidding. Actually. Actually. And now I'm like,

look at her. She changed her tune. We would just want to talk about this. I mean, this is big. I mean, I've read some articles about couples that have done this and we want to talk about the couples that you talked about in your article. But let's kind of give an overarching. What have you found? So the percentage of married Americans doing this is still quite small. Totally. But it's written between 2000 and 2019, I think. It's risen 25%. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

So it's in the millions now. And I think that COVID, there was a big jump after COVID. And I think that like so many other things, you know, you talk about differences and privilege and things like that really became very clear over COVID. And women, I think, were like, oh, my God, I never have time off. And I need my own space to just, like, be able to enjoy myself on my own without my husband, my children. So you focused on the subset, to be clear, of people that had once lived together and chose to then live apart.

So it's not people that have made the decision. We've never moved in together. We're married. We live down the street from each other. I think that that's sometimes a little easier than the conversation of like, we do live together. Now let's split. Because a lot of people will see this as the deterioration of a relationship or exacerbating the deterioration of a relationship. Yep.

So you saw after COVID that a lot of people sort of felt like. the brunt of the labor fall women. Yep. The brunt of the labor falls on me, the housework, the child rearing, and like, when do I get a break? Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

And I loved the one woman you focused on or the one couple. Basically, their story was they were living together in a smaller, just, you know, by nature of New York City, but New York City apartment. Yeah. And she just felt like she lost herself. They were in heterosexual relationship, Ms. Akhand. Is that her name?

Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. They're married. They're married. Okay. So she, and they got separate places or she moved out and, you know, spoiler alert, they came back together and they actually moved to California where they have some more square footage. Like I mentioned earlier that matters.

But I love this one quote. And it says, living in her own apartment gave Ms. Akand a chance to reconnect with herself. When I wasn't with him 24-7, it truly was out of sight, out of mind. Like, I wasn't worried. Is he eating? Is he okay? He's in his own house. That's his responsibility.

She spent more time with girlfriends and focused on her work. Her career took off and she got her first book deal. While living apart, Miss Akhan says she could fulfill my cup in more ways. And I love that success story. I'm sure they're more like it because like Raina said, people are like, oh, this is a death wish. Like this relationship's over. This is like the last straw before you break up. It's like when people just start to be in open relationships and then they break up, you know, which

I know that works for people too. No, I actually love that you brought that up because therapists will say that the time to open a relationship up is when the relationship is at its best at its peak, not as a bandaid to maybe this will make it better, which is exactly what you've said. Like if you move apart when it's already deteriorating, that may just be the death nail. Okay, true, which I'm sure happens too. But I like these stories of like that their relationship was fine. She just felt like she lost herself.

I mean, I don't know. I mean, again, that's the whole thing. You're in a small space. You're on top of each other. It's kind of natural to develop this sort of codependency, I guess. So I just love that story. Yeah. And I mean, I really admired her story also because I think I think that if you're not careful, you know,

and I'm in my 30s, but marriage can shrink your life. And I feel like this is a thing. I don't, maybe it's, you know, growing up with my parents who both have very strong groups of friends on their own and my mom travels frequently with your girlfriends rather than my dad and my dad's off with my uncles. Like, if you're not careful, like, it's easy to really turn inward and, like, separate yourself from your community. And I mean, I'm not a marriage therapist, but I would think that, you know, having ways to

fill your cup outside of the marriage. is good for the marriage. And so I thought it was very cool kind of how she saw that happening to her. And for her, the solution was L-A-T. L-A-T. I think it's really brave. I don't think that this is easy. I think it's easier for a very long time live apart. But to say to somebody, I think I've lost myself in this relationship and I'd like to be in this relationship but apart. Like, how could somebody not take offense to it? If somebody I was so in love with it, lived with me, it was like, I want to stay together. I just don't want to live with you. I mean, it would hurt so badly. And I think the other person is almost saying like this isn't about you at all. This is

just about me and what being in a relationship has done to me. And I think we can have a better, more intimate relationship living apart. But it seems it's really painful and frightening to say that to somebody. And I'm sure people wrestle with this for years before they bring it up. It's so interesting. The people I spoke to, and I didn't ask them specifically about bringing it up, like whether they were anxious, but that it really didn't come up. And men, especially, it was mostly in heterosexual relationships. It was mostly the woman who was initiating this. And I spoke to the, they were the ones who wanted to talk to me. And I spoke to the husbands, I felt like it was important to do. And they were just so, they were so in love with their partner. And they

understood that their partner was in love with them as well. Okay. And so I was really impressed by kind of the steadiness of the men. Yeah. And again, there could be a world in which this is your excuse for wanting to slowly break up. Yeah. But that's not the case of the people you spoke to. I mean, I did express my concerns to my fiance about this. I mean, I was nervous about bringing it up to him because I just couldn't stress enough. This has nothing to do with you or our relationship. If anything, I just want to preserve what we have. I am a little hesitant about going from long distance to living together. I've always said that in this podcast. It feels like there's a step in between there. And I expressed that to him of like, this is the way I've always felt. Like I have changed

in this relationship, but I'm still the same Ashley that I was. And, my independence matters and what we have is so wonderful and I don't want to move too fast. And, you know, I think it's all the things. Rain and I just know too much. We have too much information. We hear about too many couples that like lose the spice and lose the spontaneity because they're just together all the time. And I think the good thing is we have all that information enough to like prevent it and, you know, keep the spark alive and all that kind of stuff. And I'm certainly not worried about that in my relationship. But I express my concerns. And he was like, if this is a big deal and I moved to L.A., I'll get an apartment for a little bit.

Like, he didn't take it person. I think it stung a little because he doesn't have the same concerns. He was like, I love you. I want to live with you. I want to be with you all the time. But I was like, I'm struggling with us a little bit. And he was like, well, then we won't do it. Like, he knew it has nothing to do with my love or my commitment.

Yep. And I've thought about it a lot. And I don't know exactly when this will happen. But I feel confident in wanting to live with him in the house that I'm in now. So I've come to that conclusion and obviously we're engaged now. But I think I've talked to it. with a lot of people, I express this concern to couples that I really look up to that are married. And, you know, I just want to validate that it's a valid concern.

Yeah. And relationships where people really are secure and healthy know that it has nothing to do with loving you any less. Yes. Yeah. I really like my independence. And I really struggled in my most recent relationship where we live together. Like, he would be there in the morning. I mean, a lot of people are working from home now post-COVID, of course.

So you'd be there in the morning when I would leave and I'd walk down the street to our studio and I'd spend a few hours there. And then I'd go home and he was just there. And he was clean and polite and wonderful to live with and we had great sex life. But like, I just didn't want you in my space 24 hours a day when I was also in the space. Like we socialized together. We would like to go out with friends. But like I never ever got to be in my home alone without him because he worked there. And that's not his fault. But it really was, I mean, one of the death nails of the relationship. I just couldn't do it. And I know that a lot of people don't have that luxury. And I don't, my previous relationship, I loved coming home to him for four years. I was just like so amped to be with him all

the time, wake up in the same room with him. But at different stages of my life, I've wanted more alone time, I guess. It was really interesting to look at the comments on that article and see order by most read because I think it was like the first or second was written by a woman. And she said, like, I love my husband, but I would never get married again. Like, I feel like marriage is a service to men and it diminishes women. Is that a study show? It's great for men and not great for women. Yeah. And like other women were chiming in and commenting on the fact that, oh, it's really interesting that it seems like the women are initiating this. And, you know, I think there are ways to make marriage more

egalitarian. But like some of these prescriptions are not really in service of us, especially if, you know, you're in a heterosexual relationship. And more and more is coming out about older woman and like there was just a Wall Street Journal article about older women who say I never want to marry again like I want to date and have fun but like I'm not going to live with a partner a phrase they use often as a nurse with a purse. They feel like men are looking for a nurse or a purse or a bulls so someone to care for them or someone to pay for them. You both said something kind of differently but it's the same thing you were like want to men care if they live with a woman and you were like a lot of marriages are in service to men and it is the same thing like a lot of men like what do they care because they're

at home, somebody cleans up after them and goes for them and does the shopping. I don't think all men are helpless. Lots of men shed are 50% of the work or at least 40%. I think that there's two people in the household. They both work typically now. I think men help. But like mostly women have a different standard of cleanliness and eating and stocking a house and that men don't. And so men are being taken care of by the women because they're living at the standard of this woman. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I guess what I saw growing up was equal. And my dad, doing so much of the heavy lifting, especially now they live on this farm. My mom couldn't live there without him. She said that. It's not that she's not capable. She can't live there without him.

She wouldn't. If, you know, God forbid, he were to pass, she wouldn't be able to live there. And in my relationship, my partner lightens the load. He, I don't feel like I'm ever taking care of him. I just like he takes care of me way too much. Like, I wouldn't sign up for that where I feel like you have made my life harder. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm not trying to brag, but I want that for every woman because I understand the inverse where you're like, this sucks for me. And I saw like, Mark Manson had posted recently, and we love him. We've had him on the show twice, and he's an author and a speaker, but he did some video of like, in defense of marriage.

Like, marriage is great. You know, people aren't talking about this enough. And a lot of the comments were like, for you. For you as a man. And I don't know anything about his relationship. And I don't know how his wife feels. Yeah. But it was just funny that he was just like, guys, marriage is great.

And all men are like, fuck yeah, it is. Yeah. I mean, I live my life by a certain standard. And if you live with me, like you get to, how lucky you are you, you get to live at that standard. And I think living with somebody is hard and you have to choose your battles. So, like, I can't come down on somebody every time they leave a wet towel on the floor and they just don't run water in a dirty dish. They don't clean up to themselves that the trash is overflowing. I can't pick every battle. But I could see somebody saying to me, like, that's not the standard I want to live

at. That's the standard you want to live at. So you do it. And that's not totally fair, but sort of it is. Yeah. Like, there could be a man. It's like, I'm fine having six dishes in the sink. And you're not. So you clean it up. Well, what's the quote? Are you great partners? but terrible roommates. Yeah. I love the sentiment of that. Yeah. That's probably,

that speaks to a lot of people. Like, that could be the cleanliness thing. It could be, you know, just. Oh, yeah. Like,

you love each other so much. Yeah, but I don't, the socks and shit. Yeah. Yeah. Like, which could be what, how people feel.

Yeah. Yeah. What other insights did you find that were really interesting? I think it's so fascinating to talk to older women and hear their stories because I am learning that there are a lot of women who felt like they were scammed by the promises

of marriage and, you know, they didn't get the fruits of it. Scammed how so. Like, there were promises that if you, you know, do the domestic work, you will be cared for in return, that kind of thing. And there was actually one woman who I, who spoke to me and she was not happy in her marriage and she had been cheated on. And she ultimately did not want to go on the record. But she felt like he loved her.

She had his children. And then, you know, he ended up getting together with a younger woman, which we like know that story over and over again. But it's really fascinating to me how younger, especially Jen Z years, are spending a lot more time interrogating marriage and interrogating, like, the things that seem most natural to us, especially things that are framed to women as like the most natural kinds of love. And I think the reason for that is like queerness has become so much more mainstream with Gen Z especially. So many of them are identifying as queer. And I think with that comes interrogating domesticity in new ways.

Totally. People are having children less. I think more and more women are out-earning men. They're out-educating men. And so this like dynamic of if I do these things, I will be taking care of. Women don't need to be taken care of anything. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, there was another survey that just came out from Pew. Less than half of women want to have children, less than half of young women, whereas over half of men want to have children. Huh. Okay. Where I feel like motherhood used to be framed as this like this whole life path of like married, like you fall in love, you date, you get engaged, you get married, you have children. Like it used to be so aspirational. And I think that people are really, really starting to think, wait, why is motherhood been pushed on me for so long? I don't actually want this. And it is fascinating that less women want it, probably because it's more work for them. Totally. We've always said we could be a dad.

Yeah. It's like an amazing dad. I could be a truck at you. That could be a stepdad. Yeah. Great fucking dad. I want to talk about something. Like, I think sometimes, and I brought this up with like the square footage of it all in like separate bathrooms and little things like that. And I think sometimes people don't consider these things. It sounds too granular.

It sounds silly. But these things matter. And it also comes down to what Rayna was saying about we're both working from home. I think that's huge. Yeah. When I think about living with my partner, I'm thinking about I'm going to work every day. Like I'm not thinking about us both being in the home and working from home. and I wonder how much that plays a part in relationships in terms of like a negative impact.

And I just think people don't necessarily consider these factors. They think living together or not. They don't think of like how much space do we have? Do we each have our separate TV if we want? You know, do we have places we can get away? We're in a fight. Can I go out here? Is there an outdoor space? If there's a pet, do we both work from home? Like there's a big difference between living in a sizable house. Someone goes to work or both people go to work and two people living in a one-bedroom. one bathroom apartment in a city like New York both working from home. Those are vastly different lifestyles. Yeah. Fighting in the homes that I lived in with my boyfriends. I just had to go to the bathroom to cry and I still was 10 feet away from them. Yeah. Like do you have thoughts on this?

I mean, this kind of gets into more of like the relationship aspect of it all, but just like the space from each other. I think it's so, I mean, I study like woman and domesticity. I just think it's fascinating like because historically women are often judged by the state of the home. So like in a movie or a book, if a woman's house is falling apart, that usually suggests something about our character, right? Sure. And so, like, I'm really interested in how we depict these relationships in terms of, like, television shows and movies and things like that.

Like, off-kilter domestic arrangements, I found often have to be framed in the language of, like, normativity in order to be legible to the audience. So, like, often, historically, if two women, there's this show called Kate and out. where these two women are left by their husbands. It's basically like a precursor to Grace and Frankie, and they're forced to move in together out of financial necessity. And over and over, the show has to align them with a lesbian couple in order to be like, their love, their friendship is real love.

But we can't really think about other kinds of relationships that I think are often as big and like the feelings that come from friendship, I think are like as big, if not bigger than romantic feelings. And I think that even though we're starting to interrogate the kind of normative nuclear family living in this house, we still have not found ways to represent other kinds of living arrangements that honor other kinds of bonds we might have with our, you know, with our family members, with our community, et cetera. Totally. I mean, I think that we're all taught to drive towards this goal, right? You're moving with somebody who get married, you live together. Like it's, in conceivable.

We pulled over 15,000 of our audience members, 25% of. said that they would consider living separately, but 75% absolutely not. That's crazy to them. But you don't know until you know. You don't know. I mean, I've had your bad. Experience isn't bad. If you remove the financial component, if you said, you could afford anything you want and if you remove children from it and said, you know, you don't need to, there's no division of labor here. You could do whatever you want. Would people still choose to live together? And I find that really interesting. I don't know what the answer would be.

Because, you know, Ashley's in a new relationship. They're obsessed with each other, crazy about each other. But like, I don't know, after a few years, not everybody's like that. Oh, that's scary. I don't want to think about it. I don't talk about you. I know that's really going to. It's never going to happen to. We're all coming from our past experiences and where we are in our state of life.

You know, like that's why you're talking to women, older women, who have been married and had a negative experience. Like, there's no way to answer this, like, unbiased or something based on our own experience. And it was so funny. Well, there's a million factors. Exactly. Exactly. Even like where you choose to live, a lot of women brought up safety, I feel safer with a man in my home. There is that.

You know, I live on a street with no street light. So if somebody, I would love to have a man in my home. Yeah. When somebody is staying. with me, I always feel safer. Yep. And so that is a family. There's a million factors. Or like someone coming in to fix something, you know. She's like I upstairs right now.

I wish Tesla was upstairs with him, babysitting him. Yeah. Yeah. We did the Drew Barry Moore show. We were on a panel for Valentine's Day. And we, Dr. Ruth, R.I.P. God rest her soul. She was on it and Matthew Hussie and DeMona Hoffman and it was just really fun thing. But do you remember when that woman asked from the audience? And she was basically saying like, I don't want to ever live with anybody and like it's a problem and this and that. And it comes out that she's single. And she was kind of like so worried about like an imaginary future partner wanting to like be in her space. And Matthew Hussey was in the nicest way possible. It was like, let's cross that bridge.

Yeah. Yeah. You have no idea who you're going to meet, how they're going to feel. And it was like some interesting. And you know, I certainly had my feelings before this relationship. But I certainly wasn't like, oh my God, how am I going to approach it? I was like, let's just wait until we get there. Well, yeah, and I mean, I think embracing elasticity is like such a tenant of like queerness and queer studies and things like that. And this, you know, maybe you do polisana and, you know, live apart for eight months and five years. When I write my book. Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, like, and people, people have been doing this. I don't know why I just thought when you said to write my book, I was thinking about Barack and Michelle Obama and how like, like, like, Barack, like when he had to write his first book, he just like took off to be alone. for like a couple months. Yeah. And he just wrote the thing in three months.

Yeah. And like, like people, we see them as a pretty like normative couple. Yeah. Michelle. Yeah. Like people don't talk about these weird diversions they have as diversions very often. But like so many jobs require you to live for a couple months in a different city and you might not be able to bring your partner with you.

Like relationships go through this kind of thing. And it's not a black or white issue. Definitely. And then. let's just talk about kids. I mean, is there any living apart together with kids, like dividing the kids up? I mean, I don't want to ignore that aspect. To me, I'm thinking of this is couples where they're empty nesters or they're not having children, but can we talk about are a married couple that are still together living hard? Did you see that with kids? I don't know. I'm trying to think so there was a couple I spoke to where the wife, her name was Connie. She's more of a city person and she fell in love with this man who grew up on a farm and his shirt. dream was always to buy a farm.

So she was living on this farm with him for like, my dad. He's literally like, his occupation is farmer. Like I asked him so like, what is your occupation? I have to say it in the article. He's like, I'm a farmer. Yeah. And over COVID, she just started to go like insane and on that farm. Yeah.

And so she got an apartment in like a city probably like a half an hour drive away from him. Uh-huh. And part of the city thing is they had adopted a child who was struggling in the public school system. And so he ended up coming with his mother and living with her in this apartment. And then his father comes like three or four times a week to see him. And that was an older child, so that's different. But oh, I did actually speak to a couple. And they were on the modern love. There was a modern love episode about them. It was called like the politics of a throuple or things, something like that. But they're a lesbian couple. They do have children. And the children.

children stay in the house. You're going to say this? Yeah. Oh, and the parents. And the parents shift back and forth. But the parents are together? So the parents have like two days. They have like three full days a week together.

But the parents are together. The parents are married. I've heard of this when parents separate. Yeah. They keep the kids in the nest or something. I forget what the word is called. There's a word for it when people are divorced and the kids stay in the house. Probably it's like something prescribed and like how to divorce with your children or something like that.

But it was a similar thing where the children stayed in the house and they each had their own places, but they were like trading. I mean, I think clearly support families being all the same home. That's how I grew up. I couldn't imagine another way. I couldn't imagine my brother. I mean, so that's a lot to be said for that. I just, I asked out of curiosity. Yeah. I don't know what that does to a kid psychologically, but of course parents are divorced and the kids are fine. I mean, you know, that goes out saying. So I just like, I was just out of curiosity because we talked about this with a previous guest of kind of parenting can be, like, like unrelenting. And so you sometimes hear divorce parents say like I'm a better parent because I could get a

break when there's a joint custody obviously. So yeah. And I mean like there was this whole wave of like literature that came out in the past six months like older white like heteroloman divorcing and talking about like how much like how marriage like really screwed them over or whatever. And one of them is called all fours by Miranda July. And it follows this woman who like pretended like she had a work trip. and she was leaving for New York, but she actually just drove to a motel like 20 minutes away and spent like $10,000 to have an interior decorator come and like fix the thing up. And she had this like emotional but also a physical affair with this guy. Like it never became physical, but it was very clear.

That's the way they were speaking. That's what was going on. I understand the need for your own space. I know. And like it's not black and white too. Like you can have like I could. And her thing was she ended up going back to the relationship. But like you can have like one night a week.

where maybe you sleep over at a friend's house or like you have a she shed in the backyard. Like I don't know. Like I would love to have like a she shed and like stock it with like food and have a shower, you know, like. Yeah. I mean, the man cave. Like where did that? That came out of men eating their own space.

Exactly. Yeah. I think that that to me is, I mean, I feel like any partner I've ever had. I've wanted to be around them all the time. And obviously it's inconceivable to me to have children not live in the same home as somebody. But to have your own space. I mean, we had a studio.

in New York when I lived my last boyfriend, Ashley and I had a studio space where we recorded. And one day I was like, I'm going to be in there and you can't come there. Yeah. She lived in the building. I was like, don't come upstairs. I just need to be alone in the studio. I need to get away from, I told him I had plans.

Yeah. I just, what? You poop to watch Broadway. I got chips and snacks and I just wanted to poop alone. Exactly. I watched reality TV alone in the studio. I just, it was really important to me to have a space where I didn't have to like see his fucking

face. And I wanted to be around him all the time. Yeah. But I needed some space. Well, like, you also want to, if you love him so much, you might want to be, like, putting your best foot forward, like, on for him. And that's really, really tiring. Yeah. I actually, I like that point that, like, sometimes you're like, I just need to be alone. I'm not mad at you. I don't do anything. I'm not in a space to talk to you. Yeah. Sometimes I wake up for a few hours. I'm not trying to talk to anybody. But it just comes down to the most simple point, which is we're best in relationships when we're our best selves, which could be we're getting enough sleep. I mean, to Raina's point. she can't function if she doesn't get her eight hours of sleep. You know, I haven't had my own space. I'm not feeling independent.

I haven't started the book. I said I was going to write. Like all those things just boil down to like we need to take care of our, fill our own cups before we can like fill others or whatever it is. Put your mask on before you help others. Yeah. Like it just, I don't know. So I hope that most people are in relationships where if these come up,

they feel comfortable to discuss with their partner. Yeah. I like that you brought up all the people, you will feel that they lose themselves in a marriage. They just stop socializing or doing things with themselves. And so I think some of it is maybe just force yourself to have plans with friends at least once a week. Go do something for yourself. Take a class.

Like find a hobby, take a pottery class. Like go to a movie alone once a week. I like spending that at your friend's house. I mean, of course, if your kids are like, where's mommy? Slumber party. Whatever, though. It's like she's with her best friend today. Yeah.

Like my mom would be the aunt Kathy's. Your mom would definitely do that. Our audience was really great. They love the topic. And we asked, do you guys have any non-traditional living situations? A lot of people submitted stuff. a lot of people are living in vans. In a back of a van traveled in Australia.

Scandinavian sleep method, which is same bed, separate comforters. Oh, my God. Which I absolutely love. They rent businesses in multiple locations, so they'll be in different states part of the time. A lot of like traveling for work. Yeah. We share all the spaces, but he sleeps on the couch. I sleep in the bedroom.

Good for her for negotiating that. Wow. Yeah, my boyfriend and I moved in with my parents to save money, two separate bedrooms and bathrooms, mainly because of a snoring, but we're very happy. Together for four years, no plans of getting married or moving in. We enjoy some separation. Oh, interesting. Yeah. And it said, sad that it's unconventional, but all household responsibilities are split 50-50. We both work. So there is that, I mean, yeah. A firefighter. Marry a firefighter. They have to sleep at the station sometimes. Oh, my God. Yeah. I mean, that's, that comes down to the thing, too,

of, like, relationships work a lot when someone is traveling for work. Yeah. You know, you get your time. I mean, the way my mom travels more than my dad. like she takes all her girls trips. But then the few times when he travels and, you know, he goes on ski trips and stuff, I mean, she just gets to like binge Netflix. Yeah. She's thriving. She's Kathy over.

They get drunk. I mean, it's just doing their thing. So they enjoy their space. Yeah. I'm like curious about when people, I feel like there might be an age when people realize, oh, I don't have to just travel with my partner. Like, I can travel with like my best friend from childhood or whatever, you know. Yeah.

It should be always. You should always know that you can do that at any age, every age. Yeah. Well, any other final thoughts? I guess I know someone who got divorced recently and she was talking about how anytime her spouse stepped in the room, she would see herself as a wife. And she was like, I need to be a good wife to him. And I just think that that can be so suffocating to have this like invisible thing hanging over you. And it can be so much easier to be like, oh, is he hungry?

Like, let me get up and interrupt what I'm doing to make sure that he's all right. And I think in thinking about something as like seemingly tiny as having a separate room where you can go and just shut the door, I've seen from the couples that I've talked to that it really, really can like breathe new life into their relationship and turn it into something that they didn't think would be possible before. What an amazing way to wrap up. Kelly, you killed it. I know you were a little nervous. This is like your first podcast. Yeah, you were great. You speak for a living.

I know. This was incredible. I could talk about this forever. And so thank you so much. Yeah. And if any of our listeners are like published New York Times writers,

you can feel free to email us. And anything, do you want to plug anything? My Instagram is Kelly underscore coin. I definitely post all of my writing there. Perfect. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Well, thank you so much for such a great episode. Thank you for the pitch. Thank you for coming out here. You love on the East Coast. So we appreciate you making the trip.

And you guys know where to find us. Girls Gotta Eat.com. That's going to be tour tickets. We cannot wait to see you guys on tour. And Girls Got to Eat Podcast on Instagram. and TikTok. I'm Ash Hess. Raina is Raina.com. Our other company Vives Only, Vivesonly.com, subscribe on YouTube. Share this episode with a friend who may need it. And we will see you Thursday. Have a good week, guys. Bye.