Girls Gotta Eat - Working Through Sibling Trauma and Drama with Therapist Lori Gottlieb

Episode Date: July 28, 2025

Therapy is in session! We have incredible therapist and author Lori Gottlieb join us for a third time to discuss sibling relationships and dynamics – competitiveness and jealousy in adult siblings (especially around milestones), growing up with totally different experiences in the home, favoritism from parents, and even estrangement. And we dive into the hot topic of not liking/not getting along with a sibling's partner and how to navigate these situations and approach tough conversations. Before Lori joins us, Rayna has a dating update only true GGE fans will understand, and Ashley had an unexpected encounter at a gay bar (plus, catch us in Denver this weekend). Enjoy! Follow Lori on Instagram @lorigottlieb_author, check out her NYT column Ask the Therapist, and listen to her podcast Dear Therapists. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for more. Thank you to our partners this week: Warby Parker: Try on any pair of glasses virtually at https://warbyparker.com/gge. Rocket Money: Cancel your unwanted subscriptions at https://rocketmoney.com/gge. Quince: Get free shipping and 365-day returns on your next order at https://quince.com/gge. iRestore: Get a huge discount on the iRestore Elite at https://irestore.com with code GGE. Cort Furniture: Build your own furniture rental package today at https://www.cort.com/podcast. Simply Pop: Go to https://cokeurl.com/simplyPOP to find out where you can try Simply Pop. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I think what's interesting about siblings is that you can grow up in the same household with the same parents and have a completely different experience of your parents, each other, your childhoods. It's really interesting. This podcast is a Dear Media production. Hi, guys. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Got to Eat. Welcome back. I know we said we missed you last week, but we missed you on Monday.

Monday. We only got to say we missed you on the snack. The girls are back on Monday. Until labor, die. No, it feels good. We've, this episode, you guys. It's a Lori Gottlie banger. Masterpiece.

Masterpiece, yeah. So we hope you guys like it. We just, we wanted to do this episode. It's about sibling dynamics. Yeah. We've wanted to do it for so long and like, who better than Lori. Than Lori. I'm so excited.

I just got back from seeing my sibling. Oh, yeah. Same. Oh, yeah, we both did. And our nephews. Let's think our partners and then we're like to rank our lives. Yeah, okay. Now can you imagine a power ranking of the three?

I'm going to guess. We know who's at first. All right. Let's take our partners. Okay, let's take our partners. Then we're going to get into it. Thank you to Warby Parker. Try on any pair of glasses virtually at Warby Parker.com slash GGE and RocketMoney.

And cancel your unwanted subscriptions at RocketMoney. com slash GGE. And Quince get free shipping and 365 day returns on your next order at quince. com slash GGE. And thank you to I Restore. Get a huge discount on the Irestore Elite at irrestore.com with code GGE. And court furniture. Build your own furniture rental package today at court.com slash podcast and Simplypop. Go to

Coke URL.com slash Simplypop to find out where you can try Simply Pop. So after you left Europe, I decided to stay for two weeks. I'm so tired. You really did that. I've been back for a week and I'm still tired, but I'm finally starting to like kick it. Kick it. I was on tour. I went to D.C., which was so much fun in the devil's layer. It was so hot. I was like, you guys, it's hotter here than anywhere, and you know why. You're in hell. Your proximity to the devil is making it extra hot. No, it was fun.

I had fun. I check the weather everywhere, every day. I just want to see what other people are up to. I have a constant need to know. Wait, I just remember another story after you tell you. We have a lot to cover. I only actually have one thing to tell you. Okay.

But it's a big one. Before we get into it, I do want to say, I'm in Denver this weekend. I'm obsessed with Denver. You are. We love Denver. My favorite club. Yeah. I'm doing four shows.

that comedy works. I think two are sold out, maybe three at this point. But regardless, there are still some tickets left. There should be. Andrew Collin coming. Oh, you didn't tell me that. I thought I told you. I didn't know. Because I have let one straight white man be on my tour. Andrew's like, you know, he's straight, but like he's just one of the gal. So I felt like so proud of myself. I was like, no. No. At first I said no straight men on my tour. It's just girls and gays. And then I remembered Neil is going to be with me in Atlanta. Charlotte. And then I was like, okay, well, no straight white men at least. And then I was telling somebody, I think I was telling my fiance, he goes, what about Andrew Colin? I was like,

oh, God damn it. So there is one straight white male on the sex before. He doesn't count. So no, he's going to come and feature and it's going to be so much fun. And then a few other things, it's Jenny Jones. It's her 40th birthday weekend. And my fiancee is going to be there too. So special guest. And I think you should go. Well, I didn't know what any of this. I didn't know the whole family was going until right this. I am inviting you on air. Last minute. Last minute. You're inviting me. We have two weeks now. I can't wait. Wait, what's so crazy? Honestly, my blood was boiling as you got to jetty as you hit me with my fiance is going. I was going to. I was like, we're going to have a fight on air about this. I was going to invite you like days ago. I'm hot. And then, Raina, I was going to invite you days ago.

And I was like, I'm going to save it for the episode. And my fiance was like, I don't know if that's a good idea. I was like, no. He knows me better than you. No, but I was like, why? He was like, what if she doesn't want to come. I'm like, then she's going to have to tell it to our audience. Then we're going to clip it. Then we'll have to cut it. I was like, as you said Jenny, I started to get like hot in my body. No, I held space for you at Jenny's brunch reservation. And I think you should come and host the shows. Listen, you said Andrew and I was like, why am I not invited? Should I go? And hear me out. You had me and Andrew. Can stay in the condo with Andrew. They have an amazing condo that they let the comics use. And so we'll all be up in their condo. No, do you want to go?

You don't have to answer on the spot. I was upset when you said Andrew was going. You were getting a little red in the face. I feel mad. I posted Andrew on my story. You don't watch my stories. You have me muted. We're in Europe.

I've been really busy. Okay, guys. Is Brenna going to come? No, I did say she should come. I'll text her. I'll talk to Brona. So, all right, guys, well. Probably going to go.

Do you want to host? Why have FOMO? Yeah, I'll host. I get FOMO. I get upset. This will be really fun. I already made our soft a res. I've been planning on it, but I wanted to do it on air.

Your fiancé knows me. He's like, she's going to go upset. No, he was like, what if she doesn't want to go? And you put her on the spot. I'm like, oh, I can't put my best friend on the spot in front of our hundreds of thousands of audio. Oh, she's going to get mad. You edit the podcast. You take it out.

All right, guys, Denver this weekend, August 1st and 2nd, Friday and Saturday night, two shows each night. Ash has.com. If you guys want to come to the shows this weekend, just they'll be a blast. And it's just another little milestone. Friday, it will be three months to my wedding. I can't round my head around it. I'm supposed to be a wife in three months. That's so embarrassing.

It's so weird. Am I going to put on my Instagram bio? But I told you, I keep thinking, like, when do I broach the, like, let's talk about me marrying you, how long do you want it to be? Like, what's the tone? What's the vibe? I have outfits picked out. Like, when are we going to go through them?

Okay. We will. Okay. Let's, like, sit down and actually do it. Let's have a meeting? Yeah. In Denver. Yeah.

In Denver. No, so it's just, it's a crazy thing. It's like, it, I knew it would. This summer, you know, the spring, touring and everything we've got going on would fly by. But three months feels like a real, like, got to make sure everything's locked in. Two months, there's no more time left. One month, it's tomorrow. Three, you could savour it.

Enjoy the journey. Yeah. So I'm just like, I got to make sure everything, like hair, makeup, DJ. I got to make sure someone gets the big, like, letterboards that you see in the club and who's carrying the spark, the bottles and the sparklers and who's doing the cryo. It was the drumline booked. Yeah. Like all the things that we advance, the girls got to each.

shows. So no, so it's, you know, just throwing that out there, a little milestone coming up this weekend. I'm very excited. I'm trying to save, I get a little antsy in the summertime. Like, I should be doing more stuff, but then I'm like, September will hit and I will have plenty to do. A hundred percent. It's hot out. I've retired. I can't be doing stuff. I've retired. I even considered going back to Italy in August. Gosh, crossed my body. What? What Because it's so easy to get there

Yeah. What a nightmare. Yeah, I was near for three weeks and it's a sibling episode and we both spent time with our siblings and I got to spend time with my nephew and he's so cute. I'm obsessed with him.

I love him so much. I changed my first diaper. First and last, let me just say, a huge poop log. It was so much. Oh, it wasn't like a blowout. It was like a log. It was a log but it like filled the diaper

and it got on me. But that, was just the start of the most horrific text I've ever read. Rana, that text fell the screen and I had to take a break. Well, I was like, you had a horrific episode. I was piecemealing it to you and Anushka and then I was like, I'll just tell them like the whole thing because my brother and sister-in-law went to play tennis for an hour and I was like, I can do this for an hour. And my sister-in-law was like, he's napping, he'll be up in 20 minutes, heat up the bottle, play with him, we'll be back. And I was like, I can, I got this. I'm already like, no, I don't got this. Heat up a bottle,

how long? What are we doing here? I told her to FaceTiming instructions, but I was like, I can do this. She set me up for success, and the baby was like up, and I went to, like, get him up. And he just had a full diaper. And I really considered, like, can't I leave him in this for an hour? And I just, I can't. I couldn't. You can't.

No, it's abusive. Yeah, it felt like mean. I just, I couldn't have, like, enjoyed playing with him knowing I was, like, doing that to him. Oh, no. You know, you have to. I know that I could, and I would figure it out. But I said, if I were you, I would ask, when did he poop last? I'm surprised I didn't.

because I'm not getting stuck with this. It seems not like me. So, yeah, I had to change his diaper. I've never changed a diaper before. And, like, he's eight months, so he's grabbing everything. So I, like, took him out of the crib. I put him on his little changing table.

I held him down with one arm while I'm fishing for the diaper and the wipes with the other arm. And I wipe him and I get poop on myself. I have to get another wipe and wipe it off myself. And as I'm trying to have the diaper, he punches his lamp off the table and breaks it. I was like, mother, motherfucker. And then I, like, get him dressed.

The lamp got me. I was like, my brother's going to fucking kill me. And I finally, like, get him dressed, and I take him upstairs, and we're, like, dancing around of the new Bieber album, and he sneezes blood on me.

And I was like, I killed the baby. Yeah, that's it. And the lamp. There's a lot of casualties in this town home. I didn't tell them about the lamp. Okay. I set the lamp back up. Yeah, I was just like, uh, we'll see.

But I just, I was really proud of myself. I was so resilient. Yeah. I just, I don't know. I just, I love them so much. It's like, it's crazy. You love a thing enough, you'll take care of it, I guess.

Oh, 100%. Yeah, you know, I would. I've never changed a diaper in my life. I know that might sound kind of shocking. Like, why is it shocking? Why would I be out here? So, yeah. I told two different people, their moms that I change a diaper.

And one of them was like, my brother and sister would never change a diaper for me. Yeah, I mean, I guess, I don't know. I've had friends. Like, for example, like, Lee would change Corey's kids' diapers. She's a NICU nurse. She also was a nurse. Yeah, like she worked with. in the NICU for years, you know.

So it's like, I had seen that and I was like, I don't offer. And I'm like, I'm not offered. I'm not doing this. My sister-in-law's sister and mom are also nurses. They're great at doing that stuff. Yeah, exactly. I've never done it. I don't know why I would have ever done it.

Yeah. And I mean, when I've been in the house and my nephews and neither are diapers changed, there's like two parents that split the responsibility. Well, I'm so glad you got to be with him. You like used the Instagram caption of that I was like, I was thinking about I'm not going to use it now. You wrote I'm a mommy. And then other people kept doing it all week with like their friend's kids.

And I was like, they're wrapping me off. And I was like, it's probably not that original of an idea. So when you wrote Amamami and I was like, I'm not going to write Mama Sita, everybody's writing Mama Sita. People didn't care that 10 people had written it before them. But I was like, I'm going to find something more obscure. So I watched back down the clip from Love Island and I comment, how old is he or she? And like, some people didn't get it. Someone said Rain is 40.

which maybe they were trolling me. Maybe they were just being funny. I was so proud because my two best friends wrote the two funniest comments. Obviously, you wrote how old is he or she? And Melanie wrote, because I'm in the park with my nephew and there's some charcuttery. She wrote great, my dream date. And he knows that. Okay, I love that.

And it just made me laugh to her. Everybody else wrote Mamasita, which I wanted them too. Of course. Mama Sita is very funny. But this is obviously such a viral clip you guys have seen from Love Island, but my brother didn't know it. You know, he's got a lot going on. I'm glad you brought this up.

And so I showed it to him. He was laughing out loud. It's the funniest thing. Honestly, it's one of the funniest things I've ever seen. I don't even watch the show. I've just seen the clip. My sister-in-law also had never seen it. And I had decided ahead of this trip.

I was obviously going to take a picture with him. Right. I'm a mommy. But I was like, she won't think this is funny. So I have to, I have to show her the clip. I had to show her and my brother explained it to this. that's so funny she'll be like this is weird really are appropriating yeah i was with my two nephews and my brother and sister-in-law and i had not seen them since the holidays and that was different for me

i usually don't go that long without seeing my family but when i do it is early it's post-holiday and then i'm there in the summer and the fall a lot like i'll be there like when i just parted ways with them this past time i was like see you in a month you know So, but the boys, I mean, hot take how much they grow up in that span of time. I mean, Jay is obviously, he's an anomaly. He's so advanced. He's just, we're having full conversations. He remembers everything.

It's kind of crazy to see, especially like my mom and my aunt, people who were like teachers or even like, this kid is just off the charts. But Aaron, who just was a needier baby and really just wanted to be with his mom. And he was always wet. And he was just, you know, a different type of kid than Jay is really coming into his own. he has his own little personality. Obviously, he's running and walking around, and he's starting to talk and say things.

And I'm obsessed with him. We've been waiting for it. And I knew he's just funny. We knew he'd be the funny one. Like, kids are funny, but he's funny. His person, you just can feel it. He's just got that, like, bruiser energy. Like, he bumps and he runs around.

He's just kind of creating chaos wherever he goes. He has that look about him. He just always, I've been saying this since he was six months old. He just looks like a divorced dad, like fighting for his life, trying to get his kids back. He's all out of breath. He had that bald head and like the hair around the sides. He looked like drunk.

He looked like he just like slugged back a case of Coors Light. Got some rosacea. Well, his wife took the kids. Like that was his energy. But his smile, I mean, he is so adorable. And he's way more outgoing and friendly now with other people. He's not like he was when he was a baby where he really just needed to be like on staff at all times.

And I just had the best time with them. I love them so, so much. And it was so, like, I don't know. My time with my family, it's like I, I, I, I, really have had to come to terms with it being quality over quantity now. And I want to stay with my parents some nights, with Matt and Steph in their house. I want to be around. I know it's a little chaotic with two kids now, but I want to be there for those moments. And I want to like really make the time count. And that's just how I'm thinking about it. Because it just used to be

way more often when I lived in New York and I saw them more. But now it's like it's the quality of time that matters. And I feel like I really got that in. Well, you and I like, we both had this like moment, I think the same day. We're like, we were feeling really guilty in July that we like took a bunch of time off and we like miss you guys when we don't record every week.

We know you guys look forward to it. And we both were like, I'm really glad we got this time to be with our family. Yeah. And like I don't ever stay with my brother when I'm in London. I don't want to be on top of them.

I don't want to bother them. But like I stayed with him too the whole time. I got up with the baby every morning at seven. I took walks with them every morning. And it was just nice to like make, we didn't do a lot. We made dinner.

We watched a movie. We went to bed. I know. Like my brother and I went out just the two of us Tuesday night. And Tuesday night is when I have to really get into the snack. And like, again, like I love doing episodes and recording and sharing with you guys and laughing and working. But like we just actually took it off. We usually don't. I'm usually like at night editing at my brother's house when I'm there. And it was like, we just wouldn't have gone out. And so we went out and talked so much about like our mom and dad

and all these different things, our relationships, you know, his wife, my fiancee and the kids. I don't know, I get emotional. I just had like this really nice bonding time. I feel like I got to spend time with Steph with the kids at the pool. And obviously my parents and my aunt I spent a lot of time with her. She gave me this like bracelet for my wedding and we share the same birthday. And I just had these moments. And I was so grateful and so thankful. And also just like also so grateful to you that you were like, let's take the time off. Oh, I always want to take that off. You're welcome. But no, I'm glad you. I'm glad you got that and that I got that. And it's, of course. We talk a lot about our sister-in-laws in this episode too. But like, I just got

much one-on-one time with my sister-in-law and it was just so wonderful to talk to her about like how it feels to become a new mom and they live in another country and she's working part-time and that's different for her because she always worked full-time and it's just it's been I feel even closer to her than I ever did. Yes. I love that. Yeah. Okay. What is going on with your dating life? Okay. Which is not a question best friends ask each other but Ray has been gatekeeping. No, you know this. We just didn't talk one in the pockets and you're going to be like, how do we know talk about this? So I had a date like the night before I went to Europe and it was with like a polka. I was like a A podcast All-Star who, we have this viral clip from years ago, What Doing Guy.

Yeah. And. Oh, right. God, Raina. I was like, who? I was like, why is she not reacting to this? Sorry, it was so long ago. We've lived so many lives.

We've taken so much time off. It's before you left for Europe. The night before. And June. June 28th. It's a month ago. Okay, a month ago, Raina had this date just to catch you guys up. But what, two and a half years ago, we had this viral clip about this guy that I had like

a one-night stand with this end. And we would try to hook up. And the way he spoke to me was crazy. I mean, we don't use full sentences each other. We barely use verbs with each other. I mean, it's just a collection of words until one of shows up the other person's house, I guess. Yeah.

Go look at the clip. I think it's still pinned on our TikTok. I think I have it still pinned because it's a classic. He told me that somebody that he was dating showed him that clip and was like, this is how you talk. Didn't even know what was about him. I find that insane. Like, was just like, hey, is this you?

And he was actually, actually it is? No, he did not admit that it was him. He was a liar. He said that she sent it to him and his first thought was like, oh my God, she knows this is me. But she was like, this is how you talk. Right. Like she sends it to him. She's like, this you?

She's kidding. He's like, it is. It literally is me. We don't ever talk really or see each other. But like once in a blue moon, the stars will line. We'll have like one perfect night together. And this was the night. It was really fun.

He was in L.A. He asked me if I want to hang out. I said yes. We just had this, like, great dinner. We popped into this restaurant that's, like, really popular, and we just, like, happened to get seats, and we just, like, the best meal. And then we just, like, bought Sigs and walked Sigs and walk back to my house. Sigs are back.

I'm trying to pick him back. We could be safe, you guys. And when, like, we walked to my house, and we synced up our Spotify playlist and, like, danced in my living room and hooked up on my white couch, which was very stressful for me, but, like, I did it. And I don't know. You asked me, like, why don't you guys date? Like, could you take this seriously?

I don't know. If you tried to date me, I would think about it. Maybe. We'd put him through the test a little bit. I don't trust him quite yet. It's been years. At least he speaks in full sentences to me now, and that's the bar is in hell. Yeah.

I just want a man that can talk. Text me in full sentences. Yeah. But I don't know. It was a really like nice, fun experience. It was like a great summertime experience. 100%. Had to tell you guys.

We love a summer fling. Yeah. What doing? I really, I enjoy his company a lot. We have merged. He's what doing guy. He's what doing guy. Yeah, exactly.

Is that still available? Oh, I took it down. I think I don't know. Who's to say what's up there? Well, if you guys have it, then put it on eBay. It's a classic. So that was like a fun dating, just a fun night for me. Yeah.

And I like kick off to my European summer. I have been hoarding this story back from you. So when I was in D.C., my friend and hilarious comedian Oscar Aden opens for me. And he will not be in Denver because we're bringing in a straight white guy. But he will be in San Francisco and he will be when I film my special coming soon. He'll probably be in Boston. Whatever. But he's so great.

and he was like, will you go out with me to a gay bar after the, like, show? And I was like, yeah, I'll go out after Saturday night, you know, because we had two shows, ended really late. I was like, after Saturday, let's go, we'll out celebrate, like four sold-out shows. We'll have so much fun. And we go out and we walk, it was this nice place. My friend Terry, I was so upset they couldn't meet, but he recommended it. It's called like the Little Gay Pub.

It's in like the DuPont area. We were staying around that area. So we go, and it's nice. And he was giving me kind of like the mean girls cafeteria lay of the land. Like, because it could be a little clicky in this. It felt like that. Okay. It felt noticeable.

And so, anyway, he was kind of giving me like the lay of the land of all the gay guys in this bar. And there was a few probably straight women there, not too many. I always, I don't feel out of place, but I also feel like this is not like for me. So I'm just going to, you know, be here to support my friend and just hang out. And we are looking at these two guys. One is really good looking. He was like tall and he was just good looking. And he was talking to another guy.

And Oscar and I were both eyeing this guy. And I was like, that guy's, I think he's very hot, but he's a little too, he doesn't look edgy enough. He needs some tattoos. And then he, like, he, like, lifted up his arm and he had a whole forearm tattoo. And I was like, okay, that guy's hot. And he was like, he is hot. So we agree he's hot. He goes, watch this.

Oscar goes over to him. He was just like, I like your watch. And then they start talking immediately. The guy's friend had left. So he's alone. He was alone in the bar when Oscar approached him. He comes over, starts talking to us. And he's really chatty and he's really nice.

He was presenting kind of neutral. Like, I mean, not super femme or I don't know. was paying a little bit of attention to me and he was talking to Oscar. Oh. And he was saying he's saying he's kind of being nomadic right now. He lives in a van. I was like, oh my God, this would be so triggering to Raina. And just like he works in tech and he's lived all over.

He lived in L.A. for a little bit. And whatever. It sounded like a successful guy, but kind of of the earth vibes too, whatever. And so we're chatting with him. And I can't remember how this went down. I think he said to Oscar, so are you gay? And Oscar goes, what? Are you?

What? Are you not gay? And he goes, I'm straight. What? And when I tell you, we were in a gay bar. It's called the Little Gay Pub. This wasn't a gay friendly bar. The Little Gay Pub.

And so he was alone at the Little Gay Pub. Yes. So then he goes, he's talking to Oscar. He was, I thought you were calling me over to like Wingman for her. At the gay bar? I'm like, I'm engaged and no. You can stop pretending you're not gay, sir. We're at a gay bar.

So Oscar goes, I'm out of here. He leaves, he goes to the bathroom. He goes, I cannot believe that fucking happened. So this guy, he said he was straight. There's no reason to lie, though. He said he was there with his friends. Sure. But his friends left.

Why did you stay? He's gay curious. I think he could be by, because then when Oscar came back from the bathroom, he was like, so, do you guys want to go to this club? And it was a very, like, let's hang out the rest of the night vibe, both of us. What? So we were both like, I think he would fuck both of us. but Oscar was like Ashley I can't with you

I can't how did this happen how did I bring you out here to wingman for me and you found the only straight in the bar This is crazy Yeah I don't know I mean I think that there's a lot of like very secure men That would be like I'm at a bar My friends left I'll stay but like

I don't know I don't know By yourself I don't want I want to tread lately I'm a straight woman it can feel a little queer baiting You're in a gay bar as a straight person alone. I mean, the assumption when you're there as a man is your gay. Well, like, I wouldn't go to a lesbian bar.

I wouldn't go to any bar alone. Okay, like a... Let me walk that back. Okay, on a Saturday night by myself after a certain hour, I'll go sit at a bar for dinner by myself all the time. Yeah. But a bar bar, bar on a Saturday night, after a certain hour, by yourself,

you're there for one reason. Yeah. To meet people. Yeah. So, fuck. It's just like... I just, when he was like, wait, are you guys not? Are you guys gay?

We're like, sir, do you know where you are? Why would you be there? So it was just like a funny thing. And Oscar was like, goodbye, we're going. We're not going to the club. It's midnight, 12.31 a.m. Yeah, 12 o'clock, I'm alone at a bar. I'm there and sex to somebody.

Yeah, I mean, maybe his friends had just left and then maybe we grabbed him and he was going to leave. But he seemed like he was there chilling. Maybe, maybe, maybe. He had like a full bar. And then he was like, you know, he was like, You guys want to go to the club? That guy is penis curious. But it was funny.

I was like, Raina would be so triggered by this guy. But you would have been into it, probably. I would have been into it. Well, because he lives in his van. That's why you think I'd be triggered. Yeah. If we were in Denver and he lived in his van, it would be like extra triggering. Yeah.

So anyway, that happened. And then one more thing we wanted to discuss is summer long balls. Are they running out of content on the internet? No, I think this is important. You do? I think it's important to discuss. Okay. So the cut posted article, beware summer long balls.

And it's just that the ball sack is hot and heavy and it's hanging low. It's susceptible to summertime, which all of our bodies are. Exactly. Like my pussy is so high and tight in the winter. The winner. I know. Winter pussy. Put me in a cold plunge and you can't even find it.

The penis is to the same thing. That's what I'm saying. They retracted to your body. I try not to really lock eyes with the balls too much. in terms of the penis, I mean, when my man gets out of the shower and it's been hot and human and he's hanging, I'm like, look at that thing. I don't pay attention to balls at all. It's like they don't even exist. And I'm down there a lot. Like, I don't ever look at them, think about them, touch them. I ignore them completely. Yeah, I just think it's they're fun to like play around with.

Okay. They're not in my mouth and, you know, like I use, they're more content based for me. I talk about I'm on stage. They're here for humor. You know, I've always said, like, I think it's crazy the way body parts shape shift. I mean, like, dicks, a different dick by the day. Same with pussy lips. Same with tits. Like, everything just hangs different.

It looks different. Temperatures, so much of it, obviously. But this article, this woman that wrote it, she says, a man told me something a few years ago that haunts me to this day. Every summer, his balls get bigger. Not to the extent he has to purchase new underwear, but enough to make a noticeable difference when he wears trunks or loose boxers. Every June or so, the summer long balls come in.

There's balls drop. This balls drop. Yeah, it says the sweat can cause the skin from his scrotum to stick to his leg, creating a batwing effect. Oh, my God. And the guys are like, you have to make sure no one sees you when you readjust. I don't care about the plight of men and their balls touching their leg. But like, poor men.

We do have to look at these sometimes. I mean, you know. Well, there's a few things they can do to alleviate the discomfort, which I don't care about. But, okay, tight underwear will help them. ice packs on your testicles, you've got to air-condition that shit. Oh, my God. Just air-conditioning in general? Yes.

Just spend time in air-conditioning. But if that's not enough, ice them. And once the temperature go down, so too will the circumference of the balls. Yeah. So once it gets colder. Exactly. They'll shoot right back up. My boobs are not affected by weather.

My boobs are just... But they always know when it's raining. We've said this before. I think we said it on an episode with Nikki Glazer so many years ago how your pussy just changes by the day. I never know what it's doing down there. Oh, I never know who's she going to be. Yeah. So I feel like I have like, do I have like summer labia?

Summer long labia. But anyway, so be on the lookout, you guys. Be aware. And if you feel like they're hanging too low and they're grossing you out, they'll be better by the fall. Or air condition them. Or put them in the AC. All right. Well, we're going to think some of our partners.

Then we're going to get right into it with Lori. I'm so excited about this partner. They're a new partner. And it's Warby Parker. It's the only place I shop for glasses. It's the only place I've ever shopped for glasses. And I actually just went in for an eye exam on Sunday morning at 10 a.m. I was like, I've voiced it at you.

I was like, actually, this is so embarrassing. Yeah, I was like, what are you doing? Well, the doctor at the Marina Del Rey location is hot. I know. But anyways, I have a bunch of frames from them. I have thick black rims. I have tortoiseshell. And I decided that I've been wearing silver jewelry.

I wanted to get silver rimmed glasses. So I got the Gus lenses, if you guys are curious. But the products are so premium. You can go to the store if you want. They have 270 retail locations in the U.S. in Canada where you can get styled by the people that work there. So I did stop in to try stuff on. And the girl that I worked with was like fantastic.

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They have so many different styles. I like can't believe it. So a lot of people ask me about mine. And I've had them for so many years. I don't think they make the style anymore. where they were called the Eugene Narrow. But I think that Esme is the newer version of that, which is our friend's daughter's name Esme.

It's so gorgeous. They're really good. And I love a tortoise. Like, I'm a big fan of a tortoise. I love my tortoise. My coloring. But I kind of want to wear, like, big black glasses. I kind of like that look.

My main pair is the thick black glasses. Yeah. I think I want to get into this. My car ones are tortoise shell. And then stay tuned for the silver gust rims. Yes. I'm really excited about. Okay.

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Download the Rocket Money app today and tell them you heard about them from our show. Okay. Let's get into it. Okay, guys, we are very excited to welcome back our guest today. She is a renowned psychotherapist, a New York Times bestselling author, and one of today's most trusted voices in mental health. She is the author of maybe you should talk to someone, which is sold over a million copies and is currently being adapted into a television series.

In additional to her clinical work, she is a contributing writer for the New York Times under the column Ask the Therapist and co-host of the popular podcast, Dear Therapist, she has a distinct honor of being three times on this podcast, If not many people have, please welcome back to the show, Lori Gottlieb. So fun to be here. Yay, we're so excited. Yes. And so for anyone listening, you've been on twice.

The most recent, we talked about mother, daughter, mom dynamics. And the one before that, it was just a grab bag. Changing your perspective and changing your life, I think we called it. So people want to go back. It was December 14th, 2020, and September 19th, 2022. And I mean, your episode about mother-daughter relationships, I mean, it's just like, it changed. a lot of people's lives. We got a lot of messages about it. It was really special. Yeah. Good. Good. So before we dive in, Lori, can you give us a life update? How are you? What's going on? This

TV show is happening. The new podcast, columns, all the things. Just share whatever you'd like. Yeah. I'm really glad that people are reading. Maybe you should talk to someone and glad to, you know, have it being adapted into a TV series. I'm very excited about the New York Times advice column that I write called Ask the therapist and I love getting letters from people and taking on all different kinds of topics. So that's been new and exciting as well. Are you ever surprised? No. You know, I think the people who, you know, either come to therapy or they write into the column, they think, oh, you know, I'm the only person experiencing this or, you know, no one's ever heard this or this is going to be shocking. And it's like, yeah, no, I've heard that a million times.

But isn't that what most people want to hear? Yeah. Yes, that's what I'm saying. I think that people need to understand that, you know, whatever they're experiencing, they are not the first to experience it and they are not alone. And it's really important that people start talking about these things, which is why I love, you know, what I did in the book and what I'm doing with the column and really bringing these things out into the open so people know that lots of people are experiencing them. And that we're all talking about it. You don't have to feel ashamed or feel like you have to hide something. I love that. Nothing surprises you anywhere. We're all the same. We are. Well, we did such a beautiful episode, like we said, with you about mother-daughter dynamics, and we've been talking about sibling dynamics. And our show is mostly about romantic dating and relationships, but also friendships and friendships and sibling dynamics kept really coming up. And the relationship that you have with a same-sex sibling with Ashley and I find

so fascinating because we both have brothers, we're both older siblings to boys. They're four years younger than us. And our friends that have same-sex siblings were always fascinated by that dynamic. And I mean, I got compared to my brother my whole life, but I wasn't being compared to somebody of the same gender. So that was different. And we pulled our listeners and asked what they wanted to talk about and so many things came up. And to your point of everybody's sort of dealing with the same stuff, I mean, the same like five

topics just came over and over and over for us. Yeah. So we'll probably end a little bit with some of the more dating stuff, but just to kick it off with just favoritism, roles, sibling dynamics in the home, people feeling competitive and constantly being compared. never live up to their sibling. I think that's across the board probably came up the most. Yeah. And we're talking about adults, you know, that have to feel like that's the dynamic their whole life. Yeah. I think what's interesting about siblings is that you can grow up in the same

household with the same parents and have a completely different experience of your parents, each other, your childhoods. It's really interesting. And I think that where siblings sometimes get into conflict is that they think that the other sibling is supposed to see things the way they did. Like, you were the, this one in the family, and I was this one in the family. And the other siblings, like, no, I don't think it played out that way. And then they feel like they're being gaslit, but they're not. They're just having very different experiences of a similar, you know, environment. I'm getting really emotional.

I know. Gosh, you just, like, speak to Rayna's soul. I was like, oh, this one's going to hit different. I actually thought this wouldn't come up as much. And, you know, my experience for listeners, I have a brother's four years younger than me. I was older and I had a tougher time in the house than he did. He was always the golden child. Everything he did was wonderful and perfect and amazing.

And I was met with a lot of anger all the time and criticism. And growing up, there was a lot of, for lack of a better term, gaslighting or teasing from him that I was being too sensitive, that I needed to get over it. I always just wanted the other person in my home to validate that we did not grow up in the same home. And it wasn't until we were adults that he really did that. and it was really meaningful to me and really special. And it's, I mean, we have a great relationship, but it made it even better. What do you think happened that made that conversation possible between the two of you, where he was able to acknowledge that some of what you experienced he also experienced

or he could see that you experienced it that way? Weirdly, when I stopped trying to convince him all the time that this was happening and I kind of just took a backseat and just let him sort of watch the behavior, It's weird. I almost like abdicated. And he was like, wow, this really is the dynamic here. I stopped fighting against everybody in the family. I was like, I don't need to prove anything to anybody. I'm going to show up, be the best version myself. Go home. When I was still, I think, being attacked. I think he was like, this is really different than how I get treated. And he said to me, you know, my whole life, I take a shit and everybody acts like that's the best thing that ever happened. And I'm a pretty average person. And he said to me, you've, you've like changed the world with what you've committed to doing with your job. And from, from 50% of our parents, you don't get any credit for that. So I don't know. I mean, he also grew up. He's a parent now. He's a great husband. I think his wife contributed to saying things about it as well. But I don't know. When you think about, I think a lot of times siblings who grew up like you did, where one of them is sort of the golden child, the golden child has a lot of pressure.

And so we think, oh, they had it so easy because everybody was always saying they're so great and giving them all of this acknowledgement and praise. But then they wonder, do I deserve? this? Did I earn this? Is this real? So they have to keep up with that. And they have a lot of pressure feeling like, well, I don't really know if I'm as great as everybody's saying that I am. So, you know, we don't think about that because it seems easier to be the golden child than to be the one who isn't acknowledged for those things. But the golden child also has other issues with it. And often when they become adults, those start to come out. So you talk about the kids experiencing the household differently. But is this because they're being treated differently a lot

of times. I mean, we talk about parents are sometimes intentionally, but possibly unintentionally, completely treating their children differently. Yeah. I think it's hard for people to acknowledge that just in terms of our personalities and who we are, that as parents, we tend to maybe bond more easily with one child over maybe other children in the household. So, you know, children who are more like what you imagined your child would be like. And maybe that's more like, you or the way you wish that you had been. And so they're kind of working out something that they never were or got as a child. And then we have to say like, oh, we love all of our kids equally. We feel the same about all of them. I think that parents generally in a healthy household love

their kids. But that doesn't mean that they don't have an affinity toward one of them more than maybe some of the others. And parents try to hide that, but it's really hard to hide. And it's picked up very easily by the other people in the household, no matter how hard you think you're treating all the kids equally. I guess if I were to say, you know, when my brother growing up always acted like I was being crazy, but I want to also acknowledge he was also a child. He didn't understand dynamics as deep and psychological as this. And so I want to give credit to people. Like, we grew up in a different home. He couldn't acknowledge it as kids. But I don't know why anybody that age would even know that. Well, I think it's really incumbent upon the parents to make sure that

they have their own stuff worked out so that they can not treat the kids in terms of their own kinds of things that they need to work out or things they need to heal or whatever their dreams, desires, wishes are that that's not what your kids are for. They're not here to make your dreams come true in those ways. And so it's really, I always say to parents that you need to get to know the child that you have. That's your goal. Get to know the child that you have and embrace the child that you have. And you need to separate that out from whatever unhealed childhood wounds you are bringing into your own parenting. Do people say to you? Like, it's frustrating for me that, like, they won't see this, that they were the favorite or that mom always gave them,

or mom and dad were more empathetic towards them or gave them more patience. Like, I'm sure that's very frustrating for people, so I wonder what you say to them. Yeah. Every household has these invisible ledgers. So it's like, you know, who sacrificed more, who accomplished more, who was this more, or that more, or this less, or that less, right? These ledgers, right? And they're invisible. And then something might happen. Like, let's say there's an inheritance dispute, which is what's coming up in the next column in the New York Times. It's these siblings. And there's this thing about this inheritance dispute. And the person said, like, I thought I had a really good relationship with my brother and then this thing happened and now he's not talking to me so our relationship couldn't have

been that strong if like this one thing caused him not to talk to me and it's because it hit something so much deeper about this invisible ledger and who got what and who was favored and who was valued and then it it comes out in something like an inheritance dispute or whatever it comes out in and all of a sudden you realize wow this has been going on for years and years and years but we never acknowledged it and we never talked about it. That's pretty common that when parents pass away that there's these. Yeah, and money stuff too. I mean, just money can bring out the worse than people.

I think it's really interesting what you said and not like a big shock that parents play favorites. You didn't use that language. But if one of your kids is easier, I mean, they make your life easier. They are more like you. I mean, there were times of my life where I could feel that maybe my brother was favored, but I knew because he was just easier. I was more difficult.

I was this older, like super headstrong girl, you know, and. They didn't make me feel like that. They were just really good parents. But I can see where parents are like, I have one kid that's like perfect, perfect. And this kid that's just making my life hell. And I guess I can empathize with how do you not? How are you even able to treat them equally when your experience with them is so different? Right.

People don't realize that genetics plays a huge role in this. So even though you come from the same parents, that you might genetically have a different personality that is less easygoing than, say, another sibling. And so the easygoing sibling gets lots of praise. They're so easy. They're so delightful to be around. And the other one is pushing back or maybe is more sensitive. They require a little more time and effort from the parents. And sometimes, depending on the parents, that can be challenging for the parents. Not because there's anything wrong with that kid at all. That's actually, those are great personality traits in a lot of ways. But it depends on the personality traits of the parent too and how well or not well they're able to

bond with a child who pushes back more or who maybe needs more care around Felix because maybe they don't have a lot of experience dealing with feelings. Maybe they never pushed back and maybe they're even envious of that. And so they try to shut that down. A lot of times what people don't talk about is how we can envy our own children. And when we do, we tend to punish them for having qualities that we would have liked or having an easier life or a better life than maybe we had as a child. And it's completely outside of our awareness. So parents are not saying, like, I'm going to punish my child for this. It's completely outside of the parents' awareness. But in subtle ways, they feel resentful of that child. Like, you have it so easy. Or, you know, I didn't have this. Or you have

this quality that I wish that I had. And then it comes out in these ways where the child feels like that parent doesn't like me very much or that parent doesn't like me as much as they like my sibling. And then that plays into the ledgers you talked about with like who sacrifice more. And I think my parents, I think I was pretty difficult. But I think they were like, all this is good. She's going to make it one day. I mean, they just were like she's the worst. But like one day she'll be paying for us at retirement. That's what I'm saying. They somehow valued it. because I look back and I'm like, couldn't be me. But they were like, these qualities that make her really difficult will probably help her in the future.

It's interesting. And they were right. And your parents are such a team and they're like so united and they had each other to kind of be like, let's manage this girl together. But I, to your point, I was not easy. I was combative. I always took the bait. I was a girl. So, I mean, it is just, you know, you want to be born protective of women in general when they're young.

And I could not be protected. did, I could, you know, I didn't ever want anybody to know where I was. My brother was just, he was easier. He was an athlete. He got good grades. He was always where he said he was going to be. He was a nice kid that came home and did his homework and didn't fight with everybody. I came home every day we had a fight. So I, when you look back, you're like, well, my parents really did have different experiences with me. Right. And also, I like what you're saying about gender roles. Gender roles play a huge part in how sometimes parents treat their kids. So, you know, it's interesting to think like, well, if the boy doesn't tell you where he is, that's okay because

he's a boy, but if the girl doesn't tell you where she is, you know, she's a problem. So there's this double standard around, you know, how boys and girls are treated. And, you know, it's kind of like in the opposite direction, too, like sometimes, you know, if a boy, I remember when my son was little and you'd watch like a boy fell down at the playground. People would say, like, get up, it's fine, brush it off, right? He's like two, right? And then like if a girl who was two fell down and her knee was bleeding, you'd be like, oh, honey, come here, are you okay? Right?

So there's a lot of that, too, that plays into how kids are treated differently in the same family. So if you want to deal with your sibling one to one and you're like, I just desperately need them to just acknowledge that we did not have the same experience because, man, it felt so good when it happened for my, like, do you advise people? You just have to accept that you're both raised really differently and just like, what do you say to somebody that's like, no, I need that. I'm going to need that acknowledgement.

Like how do you start the conversation? Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting that you're starting at a place that a lot of people start at, which is really counterproductive, even though we think it's going to be productive. You're saying, I really need my sibling to acknowledge this. What you need first before they can hear you is you need to hear them. So you need to be able to say, I'm able to step outside of my story and make space for your story. And so you lead with curiosity. I'm curious what it was like for you growing up.

What was your experience? And it doesn't have to match yours at all. The point is you want to get really curious about something that you're going to learn about their experience that maybe you don't already know. Because then you can connect. Then there's some compassion. Then there's some empathy. Like it might look like they had this perfect childhood.

And maybe they had certain aspects that were easier. But I'm sure there are some aspects of it that maybe you didn't realize we're challenging for them. Or they saw something in a way that you thought, oh, yeah, that rings true. I could see that. So you find these points of, I see that person as another person separate from me, and I can see points of commonality. And they don't have to agree with your perspective. So you're trying to get something out of them instead of giving them something. Give them the opportunity to see, oh, yeah, this was what it was like for me. Or, you know,

here were some of the things that I thought in our family worked really well. And here were some of the things that, you know, were maybe challenging for me. And even here's what was challenging for me about you, which is really hard to hear from your sibling. But it opens up this beautiful adult honesty, if it said with compassion and grace, that it was hard because you took up so much attention because you were always complaining about this or you were loud or you were this and it took away so much attention. So I had to be the good one and I had to be quiet and I could never complain about anything because I didn't think mom and dad could handle it given that you took up so much air in the house. And you're like, oh, I didn't realize that they had to shut down

to protect the family system. And that was hard for them because they couldn't get the support that they needed. That's really interesting. And I've really never asked my brother, like, what did it feel like for you that every family dinner seven nights a week was just us screaming at each other. And every holiday, every vacation, every, everything was just like my mom and I fighting. And I never asked him how that felt. He's fine. And then you don't, like, I don't know, did he ever feel any guilt? Like, why do I just get to sit here and not bear the bread of this? Like, I wonder if that played into it. But, like, I mean, Lori, to your point, like, you obviously have to approach this with curiosity and openness and, I mean, be prepared for feedback.

And I'm sure you've seen siblings have that conversation. And one is like, that's how would happen. And that's not true. And it has to be like, but that's how it felt to me. And I was a Right. We're not talking about the events. We're talking about the emotional experience. So it's not like this was said at this time at this dinner, right? It's more like, you know, when you would fight at dinner every time, this is how it affected my experience of growing up. That's just your brother's experience of it. It's not a diss on you. It's this was, this was what it was like for me. That's absolutely true from his perspective. Now, you had a different perspective and it's absolutely true from your perspective what your experience was. But you need to make room for the

fact that you had different experiences. And what you're doing is you're creating some kind of adult relationship by saying, here was my experience, here was your experience. Oh, that's so interesting. And who are we now to each other that we're not sitting at that dinner table with all the noise? Okay. Just going to take a quick break and we will get back into it. I am telling you guys about I restore. If you have any issues or anxiety or feelings about your hair, that it's thinning. If you want it to be fuller and healthier, this can help. The I Restore Elite is clinically proven to help regrow hair using 300 lasers and 200 LEDs that send light therapy directly to your scalp. So we're obsessed with this. It is this helmet.

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That's QINCE.com slash GGE to get free shipping and 365 day returns, quince.com slash GGE. Okay. And I am telling you guys about Simply Pop. We are so excited. Simply has launched a new prebiotic soda. Simply Pop, the new juicy soda. There are five flavors, pineapple, mango, lime, strawberry, citrus punch, and fruit punch. We love this.

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And we really encourage you guys to check it out. You can go to Coke URL.com slash Simplypop and find out where you can try Simply Pop. Well, let's move into when you do what we are grown and you see a lot of competition and comparison and especially we got a lot of responses from our audience about same gender siblings and who's more successful, who's hotter, who got married first. I mean, all those types of things and how we work that out. Yeah, I think that especially around adult milestones, there tends to be sometimes envy, which comes out as competition. But really it's, I want what my sibling has, And especially if they have it younger than you, like let's say you're the older sibling and they met their partner first or they're getting married first or they got the great job first.

They were able to buy a house first, whatever those milestones are. Then you feel like, well, wait a minute. I'm the older one. And you're feeling bad about yourself and your own timeline. But because you have someone in the same family, it's one thing if that happens to a friend, you might feel some envy. but it's especially poignant when it's a sibling because you feel like, well, it's not their turn. It's my turn. And I was supposed to go first.

And you feel a little bit left behind. And instead of going into that more tender space of I feel really left behind and I'm sad that that hasn't happened for me yet, we tend to sort of take it out on the sibling. And that's not really fair to them. It's like you can hold two things at once. You can be happy for them that they found that and feel incredibly sad and envious at the same time. And we tend to do one or the other. We tend to either say, like, I'm going to pretend that I'm happy or I'm going to shut down all my other feelings and I'm just going to be completely happy for them.

But that's not real because part of you does feel envious. And the other one is like, I'm just going to be really envious. And then I'm passive aggressive because I'm not even being kind to them because I'm so upset about the fact that, you know, I'm feeling small while they're having this kind of life that I want. So we need to make room for both. And what's the self-talk there? Because I think people are like, yeah, I feel this, but I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do with these feelings. When you give them air, they tend to get a little bit less intense. So you can say to your sibling exactly the truth, which is, I am so happy for you. I truly am. I think this is great for you.

and I hope you understand that it's also hard for me. Nothing you did was wrong. You're doing your life and just the right way for you. But it's hard for me. Sometimes I feel envy and sometimes I feel like, is this going to happen for me? Or I don't feel good about myself. And I just want you to know that.

And then what that says to your sibling is, oh, I can be careful. And I don't mean walking on eggshells, but I can be tender with my sibling. So maybe I'm not going to like, talk about, oh my gosh, and tell you every single detail about every great thing that is happening, right? Like, you get in the loop and you're still talking about it, but maybe some of it is a little bit too hard and you understand, like, I don't need to kind of rub it in my siblings' face

that all this stuff is happening. And I think about the, let's just say we're talking about sisters, younger sisters getting married, older sisters feeling these feelings. Like, you've heard the younger sibling be like, why can't you just be happy for me? You know, like they want this unconditional happiness from their sister, from her, from her family member. And I think that's where it gets tricky. It's like, well, I'm not happy for myself. It's manifesting and me not being happy for you. Yeah.

But it's like I could see a world in which the younger siblings like, well, why do I have to hold bad? Like you're my sister. I want to tell you everything. And it's just like you have the older sister. Like, but it feels bad. Like I'm holding both truths. And I think we've seen that, you know, that like, why can't you just be happy for me?

It's not that you're holding back so much. It's just that you're aware of your sibling as a person. And I would think like you're asking your sibling to love you in a certain way, which is to be really excited for you. And your sibling is saying, and I am excited for you. And I'm asking you to love me back in a certain way, which is to be tender with my heart right now. And I think that both are really valid. And it's really beautiful when two sisters can be really tender with each other's hearts. It's like, I want to be there for you and I really am so excited and here's how I can participate

in the wedding festivities and here's, you know, I'm 100% there for you and I'm really excited for you. And there are ways in which you can be a little more tender around me too. And that doesn't mean that I'm less happy for you. It means that what I'm asking that we can, we are sisters and we have this bond and we can treat each other with such grace. And that's what's so beautiful about our sibling relationship is that we know how to treat each other with grace. Yeah. And just the way that you act in general, like you don't

flaunt something if someone's struggling with something. I don't know. If I was talking to my brother and I'm the older sibling, but if I should be more ahead than him, if he was struggling with work and I'm like, well, I got to tell you how much success I've had today. I wouldn't do that. That's just kind of like common sense to me. The conversation might be something like, you know, you can tell them something you're excited about like, hey, this really exciting thing happened at work. And how are you doing? Yeah. And how can I be there for you? Yeah. And do you? And do you? You need help with anything. Yeah, totally.

Do you want to go take a walk? Do you want to, do you want me to help brainstorm with you? Absolutely. What would be helpful for you? So it's like there's room for both of you and both of your realities in the relationship. It's interesting you're saying the solution because I think when we're in these, in these situations where we're so jealous of somebody, especially a sibling, that we like, it hurts to watch them have these successes that we can't have.

The solution is to get really vulnerable and admit that. But you're like, over my dead body, why I want to tell this person is? That's like the last thing you want to do because it's so vulnerable. I mean, it's admitting that you have, quote, unquote, failed in your own mind and achieving this milestone that you wanted to achieve first, and they've gotten it, and you have to tell them that. And that's really painful. But to your point, it opens the door to a really much more tender understanding relationship.

And it's so much more honest. And I think that when you have that room for honesty between the two of you, of saying, like, here's what I'm going through and I appreciate what you're going through. and can we make room for both of us as adult siblings? That's how you get really close as adults. You know, it's hard to do that when you're kids. But when you get older, no matter what your relationship was like when you're younger, so many times kids did not have really close relationships when they were younger because of whatever

the dynamics were. But then as adults, they find, wow, we can be there for each other in these important ways. And it feels so good because think about it. You guys have this shared history and maybe it wasn't a great history or maybe it was a fine history. It doesn't matter. But nobody has known you as long, in most cases, as your sibling has, and in the same way, growing up in the same household. And so when you can really harness that as adults to say, wow, we have this shared experience, even if it was different, even if we have different experiences of it, we grew up in the same household, we have so much sort of institutional

knowledge of our family, even if we have different ideas about it. And here we are as adults, and we're going to be here for each other. There's something so beautiful about that. Like, who are you now and who am I now? And let's get to know each other now. Is this very gendered, this like jealousy? Do you see that very much between same-sex siblings of like, they were always the pretty one? They were always the successful one. It's hard to let that go.

To get everything. Yeah. Yeah. Families tend to label siblings, which I think is so dangerous. Like this person was the pretty one and this person was the academic one and this person was the sensitive one. As if sensitivity, by the way, were a bad thing as opposed to. wow, this sibling actually knows how to feel her feelings and identify her feelings and communicate

her feelings. So that's really important when you can name your feelings, identify your feelings, communicate your feelings. But in your family, maybe your parents weren't used to that. And they said, oh, that person's too sensitive, right? Or they didn't know how to help you to use those feelings in a productive way. So it was great that maybe, let's say, you felt anger. But instead of saying, like, I'm going to use my anger to realize that I need to set a boundary or I need to talk to that person about something that made me upset, you would throw a tantrum. Well, that's not very productive. So your parents could step in and say, hey, sounds like you got really mad when your brother did this. Let's talk about how you can communicate that. So if your parents didn't

teach you that, they just said, oh, this person's so sensitive. They're always crying. They're always doing this. Instead of, oh, wow, what a superpower this person has to identify their feelings. Now we just have to teach them how to use their feelings in a productive way. Because I've watched this dynamic manifest with a couple of girlfriends. I have two friends that both have sisters. I would say my friends are the, quote, unquote, traditionally more beautiful one of the sisters. And I've watched it manifested that, like,

their sisters tend to, like, pick on them and not be very nice to them. And they always feel like they're being attacked by their sisters. And I'm like, well, what was it like growing up for them, feeling like their same-sex sibling got more, was better, boys like them more. And it's an interesting dynamic to watch. I've just repeated self because I've seen it multiple times. Yeah.

I just love what you said about siblings. My brother and I didn't get along growing up. I don't know. I didn't really care for him. I just, whatever. I just, we didn't really vibe. It wasn't nonstop fighting in the house, but we just weren't friends.

We didn't play together. I didn't want him to play with me, my friends and all that. And he's just, I could, I get emotional talking about how close we are now. And we're able to look back at our childhood and reminisce. and that type of thing. What changed? I just grew up and I just didn't think he was cool. He was four years younger.

Everybody thought he was like so cool and funny. And I was just like he's not even. I don't, that's probably jealous. I mean, when I look back, like I was, you know,

had four years to myself. I think I was jealous of him from the start, if I'm being honest. And so I just grew up. I realized how funny and great and awesome he was. And probably when I went away to college and I got out of the house, then we developed a really close,

relationship and we've been so close ever since. And I, you know, I just feel for anybody that has tensions in their sibling relationships and they almost hit different than parents. I think that so many people have tough relationships with their parents. When you hear people say that they are estranged from their siblings, it's just like it hurts because it's like not to be too dark, but, you know, traditionally you will lose your parents first and you should be able to lean on your siblings. And again, they have the same shared experience that you have in the home. No one knows you better. And so I feel for anybody that has these relationships and hopefully this episode can help and just in general because they're so important. Like my brother is the most important person, you know, when I really think of like, and my fiancee and Raina.

But like the rest of my life, you know, when I lose my parents, because obviously that they're so important too. We did an episode of Dear Therapists where someone came on and she was talking about how her, much more successful brother and his wife always made her and her husband feel like they would talk about we were on this trip to Hawaii and we did this and we bought this house and and and how hard it was for her to help him to understand that he throughout her life had always seemed like the one who you know had more than she had and what we did with them on the episode was we had her talk to him differently and she found out like how hard it was growing up for him and she had no idea she thought he had it so easy and how he dealt with all this trauma and how it would like it totally changed

their relationship and I think that when your parents aren't living in the same house as you when you go into the world as adults you start to see each other as real people yeah yep it really can change the dynamic if you are open to hearing the other person's experience and not demanding that they see the world the way you do. So a bunch of people did say, you know, there's these dynamics that have arose, whether it's I am estranged from my parents, but my sibling is not, or I'm estranged from a sibling, but not my parents. And like, how do we kind of deal with that?

I'm listening. You could do a whole episode for two hours, but do you want to start with one of those dynamics? Yeah, I think in general what we see on social media is, you know, If this person is like this, then you should cut them off and they're toxic and they're a narcissist. And it's just not productive. There are times when, yes, estrangement makes sense. But people really need to be clear about what that means. And have they really tried everything in a productive way?

Because they can say, yes, I've tried this and I've tried that. But if that's not working out for you, then maybe you need to switch up your approach. Because if you just keep trying the same thing over and over and it's not working and then you decide you're going to cut somewhere. off, you don't really know what was possible. So I think that we need to understand that family estrangements are really difficult because you're not just cutting off that person. The whole family system then has to get rearranged. Like if you cut off a parent, what happens at when your sibling is still really close to that parent? And then you're like saying to your sibling, how could you be close to that parent when that parent did this to me? And then that creates conflict or

what happens at family occasions or what happens if you have kids, but your kids want to know their grandparents. And there are just so many complications and cutting off a sibling the same thing. Then your parents are kind of stuck between, well, what do we do because we love both of our kids or all of our kids and this one won't be in the presence of this one? And it creates so many different kinds of problems within the family. So I think that people need to understand what they're actually wanting before they cut someone off. Like, most of the time, we just want to be understood. It's like, I remember when I was seeing this couple and this woman said to her husband,

you know what three words, I really want to hear more. And he immediately said, I love you. I know, I need to say, I love you more. And she said, no, the three words are, I understand you. Yeah. Right? Because understanding is a form of love. It's the deepest form of love.

And I think that when we feel like people are not making the effort to understand, us, which doesn't mean agreeing with you. It's understanding you. Then we feel like there's nowhere to go, and then we want to cut them off. So again, can you first understand them? Like, why are they doing the thing that they're doing? Why are they acting the way that they're acting? What is getting in the way of them getting closer to you?

And basically, that's a great question to ask, is what is getting in the way of us being closer from your perspective? What would be helpful? That's a great place to start. to start. I love that. Yeah. And then I mean, sometimes you're on the other side of it and someone has cut you off and you may or may not know why. And I know a family that's like that and it's, it's really tough. It was a bunch of siblings and one just kind of cut off one sibling and is semi-estranged, but kind of took it out on one particular sibling and no one really

understands why. Right. And that person can say, that sibling can say to the sibling who cut them off, to start off with these words, I know I hurt you. And I'm not sure exactly how, but I know that that's what must have happened. I must have hurt you deeply. Can you help me understand how I hurt you, even if you don't want to reconnect? Can you help me understand you better? I'd like to get to know you better, even if you decide not to reconnect with me. I think that's really beautiful.

Lori, you all this guy was all fucked up. You know, for some people, estrangement is the only answer to feel healthy. You've tried to set a million boundaries, and that's where we've come to. And I understand that if that's what you need to do to protect yourself, then that's what you need to do. If it's dangerous, if it's abusive, yeah. And it makes your family dynamic tough. And I think all you can hope for is, I guess, if you've chosen to be estranged from a parent, that your sibling at least respects it. Sure.

I mean, sometimes, so abuse is one thing. So we're not talking about abuse here. that's different. But we're talking about, let's say that you feel like your parent doesn't understand your experience and how you felt as a child. And then people will say, well, I'm cutting off that parent unless they acknowledge that I felt this way. There might be other things that you get from that relationship with your parent. There might be a lot of things, in fact, and maybe your parent is just really limited in that way. And they can't understand this aspect of what it felt like when you were a child in the way, in the fullness that you need them to experience

it or acknowledge it. But that doesn't mean that you're, you know, the whole relationship needs to go. And people say, well, it's my parent and they should understand this and they should. It's like, they have limitations. So you have to understand that maybe they're trying as hard as they can, but they literally do not have the capacity because they never got the modeling for that. They're not psychologically able to do that. But there are other ways in which they love you and that it feels really good. And so you don't want to give that up to. Yes. And if this is interesting to you guys, this is so much in the last episode we did with you, if you know, if you guys haven't heard. But a lot of it was, we talked about that, especially with mom. So we want to direct you guys back there. But we

unfortunately have to wrap up with you soon. But we really want to talk about something that came up a ton. And that was conflict with or disliking a sibling's partner. Over and over and over again. And yes, removing, you know, that I feel that they're in a dangerous situation, which is a total, just feeling like you don't like the person in general came up a lot. Do you see this a lot? Oh, I do. Let's get into it. And more than just like they're annoying.

Like there's probably something going on that's in between danger and annoying. That's what I want to differentiate between. So there's, there's, my sibling is in trouble. This person is abusive, right? That's something else. But then there's sort of that spectrum from that person's personality doesn't mesh with mine and I just really don't like being around them. I find them annoying or I just, you know, I don't vibe with them.

Yeah. And I don't understand why my sibling does because my sibling's cool and like, why is my sibling with this person and can't they do better because I know they can? Or there's something about your sibling has to pay for, you know, or supporting them or like doing something that you feel is really unfair and not what should be happening in that relationship. Like being taken advantage of? Yeah. Your sibling is being taken advantage of.

Your sibling's partner is trying to make you not spend as much time with your family members, is trying to, you know, compare your families. And that person says, my family is so much better than yours. And let's go spend more time with my family. You know, there are just certain things that sometimes they do. and you see this happening and your sibling can't see it or your sibling can see it, but they don't feel like they want to do anything about it or they don't feel like they can do anything about it.

And that's really frustrating because you feel like, oh, wait, yes, you can. There are things you can do. And you hate to see your sibling be in a situation that doesn't feel like their partner is 100% behind them. Like you really want them to be with a partner that is good and healthy for them and is like their biggest champion and isn't holding them back in any way and in fact is propping them up. And when you see them with someone who either doesn't feel like they're at their level in terms of like who your sibling is and how great they are or they're kind of holding them back in some way

or they're demanding something of the sibling that doesn't feel fair, we feel like, ooh, I don't like that and I need to intervene. And it's really tricky because if you bring it up to your sibling, they probably won't tell you as much because they know that you now don't like the partner and that anything that they actually want to talk to you about to get real feedback on, they probably won't come to you because they think, I can't tell my sibling this because now they're going to have more ammunition to tell me why I should break up with this person. Yes.

So what are you do? So, yeah. I mean, you know, Ashley and I are pretty lucky. We, our brothers, both married women that we really like that we're friends with. Let's say what I see sometimes is let's say that the partner of your sibling is creating some kind of weird co-dependent dynamic with your sibling, like they're always the victim and they always need help. And they're kind of like your sibling wants to save the wounded bird. You know, like that partner is sort of the wounded bird. You know, you can just say like really

gently, what's that like for you when your partner does this? Like, what's that like? I'm just wondering. I'm seeing that between the two of you. What's that like for you? And you're not judging it. You're not saying you should break up with this person. You're just saying, I'm just really curious. What's that like? And they might say, like, it's fine. And you could say, huh, because it seems like sometimes it might be kind of taxing for you. But you're saying it's not.

Okay. It's kind of like, I see you. You might not be able to acknowledge that I see you, but I see you. And sometimes people need to be seen before they can get out of denial themselves. They need someone else to be kind of the eyes and ears. And so you're just asking questions. And every time you don't ask the questions, you're kind of colluding with the denial. So if you see something like you're sitting at dinner and the partner says something that doesn't feel like they should have talked to your sibling that way, later you might say, I noticed this thing happened.

And it was hard for me to watch you be talked to that way. What was that like for you? I love that. And that's so perfect because you're not projecting. your ideals of how they should feel onto them. You're not telling them how you observed it to be. You're just saying, how do you observe it to be? And they can tell you, probably they'll mirror what you already think about it. Or maybe they'll keep it themselves. But you're not projecting your own agenda onto them, which feels... They might say something because they want to preserve

the relationship because they're not ready to really consider that maybe it's not the right relationship. Maybe, you know, for all kinds of reasons, people stay in relationships too long. And that's a whole other episode. But they might be at this. place where they want to make this work no matter what for whatever reason. And so you by saying, hey, you know, that kind of, that was hard to watch someone talk to you like that. That was how it was for me. What was it like for you? And they might say like, oh, I didn't even notice that. No, that's not what he meant. He didn't mean that. That's that you're taking it the wrong way. And you immediately back off. And you say, oh, okay, I totally misinterpreted that. But they might think about it

later, right? Right. That's the point because you do it often. You know, you do it whenever you see it. And so at a certain point, you're forcing them to look at something, even if they can only look at it for a millisecond while they're denying it. But in the process of denying it, they actually have to look at it for a second. I mean, this is, I think this is huge. And obviously, I think the theme of a lot of what we talked about today is lead with curiosity. And it's just, I think it's so hard because you want to like scream like, this is what they're doing and how can you stand for this?

But if you can hold back and restrain yourself into these small, tiny questions that, again, knowing that your only goal is to open their eyes a little bit and then maybe you'll try it again the next time it happens and it might be a really slow play because I think we get so fired up and we love our siblings and we're like, how much you to break up with them today? And it just, that's not real life. Right. And sometimes it's the opposite where they come to you complaining all the time. There is that too.

Right? Like I look at what this person did and they keep complaining about the same things. And sometimes our instinct as a sibling like we would do with a friend that we love is to say, oh, that's so hard or you should break up with the person. And that's not what they're ready for yet. So what you need in that moment is to just kind of be a witness and a guide for them. So they're telling you this happened and you could say, sounds like this keeps happening or this keeps happening a lot. Why do you think that? is. You know, just ask them to kind of reflect on something. Like, do you notice that that this keeps happening? Yeah, but he's working on it. You know, and you might say, like, do you think it's getting better? Like, is it getting better for you? Because, you know, they might say to you, yeah, kind of. I can see him improving a little bit. And you can say, like, is it getting better enough for you? You know, like the next time you might say, is it getting better enough for you? I think this stuff is so important. And I remember this one time we were on the beach with a friend of ours with her partner at the time. They've since broken up.

It was one of the worst breakups we've seen, honestly, in terms of just the sheer amount of heartbreak, the way it went down and everything. And I remember I asked her that day on the beach, like a question about their relationship purely out of curiosity. Like, yes, I had my judgments about it, but I don't care what she's going to do her. She's a grown adult. And she answered me so quickly and so defensively and, like, pulled me aside later and was like, what you said, I've really been thinking about it.

And it, like, made her rethink it. And I was just asking a question to be curious that made her realize, the way she'd been feeling about the relationship based on his actions. And we were having it. It was everybody. We said what percentage of the time you were happy? Yeah. We were asking everybody.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm not trying to be vague or coy. And she was kind of like, I don't know that most people are that happy all the time, this and that. I don't know if people go into their wedding day 100% sold on the person. I'm like, I don't. I disagree.

I sure hope they do. I know. And I said, like, would you feel differently if you didn't feel like he kind of had one foot out the door? And she sat with it and she didn't really have an answer. And then she came again to me, to us later, Rain and I, or one and the same. And was like, I thought about it. And yes, I would be 100% on him if I felt like he was 100% on me.

And they broke up a week later. That's where I think especially a sibling. So friends can do this like you did. And also especially for a sibling because there's something about I know you over time. like a really long time. You know, and there's something about just like, I've got your back. I think sometimes people are so afraid to break up with someone who's not right for them because they don't know how their family's going to respond.

And either they feel too much pressure from their family, like the whole family from the beginning was like this person needs to go. And then they feel like, oh, you won and I lost because I did what you guys wanted to do. So you can't come on that way. It's just too strong. It's too intense. They're not ready. But on the other hand, you don't want.

want them to feel like if I break up, no one's going to support me because they said from the beginning, I told you so. Yes. Like, they need to be able to see. Right. But it's like, it's like they want to know that you're going to be able to hold them in their grief and loss and you're not going to say like, why are you even sad about this? This person sucked.

Right. That's not what they want. Yeah. They want like, I know there were so many things you really liked about this person. They need you to acknowledge that. I know there were so many things you liked about this person. And also it wasn't working because of this, this and this. And it's so hard because both of those things are true.

And I'm here for you. Yeah. And also reading what they need because a week later, they might want to talk that shit. And then we'll be there for that too. Yeah. And then if you really, because we're afraid and I will always be those friends. Like, you want to hear what we really think about him? Because we'll, you got to be careful, though, because a lot of times you tell people.

You open those plug together. And you know what? That's not my fault. That's not my fault. You baited me into a conversation and you made me say that I hated him because he deserves it. And that's a topic for another day. Lori, you're so amazing. I can talk to you for four more hours. Thank you so much. Can you tell people what you're working on, where to find you, anything that you want to hype? Sure, yeah. So people can read, maybe you should talk to someone.

There's a great workbook that I put out, which is sort of a step-dye-step guide to changing your story, all the kind of unreliable narrators that we are, and how do we create a narrative that helps us move forward. So the workbook has been really helpful for a lot of people. They can watch my TED Talk, which is all about changing your story. They can write to ask the therapist at NYTimes.com. If they have an advice question, they might get me to answer. They should look out for a new podcast that I am launching in the fall, which is a new advice podcast. And in the meantime, they can listen to dear therapists if they want to hear actual sessions with people. Amazing. And you do that with Guy Wynch, who also has been on our show, multiple times. You're both so phenomenal.

Twice, not three. Yeah. Not three. We got to get them on. We got to get them on one more time. We'll get it back. Yeah, but you're the three Pete for now. Well, thank you so much again.

We love the conversation. It's going to be so impactful to so many people. And thanks for joining us again. Yeah, my pleasure. Anytime. Okay, bye. Bye. Okay, well, hope you guys enjoyed that episode.

You can find us at Girls Gottaeat.com. Girls Gotta Eat podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Hess. Come see me and Denver this weekend and maybe Raina. Ash has.com for tickets. It's Raina is reina. combe on Instagram to follow her as well.

And of course, subscribe and watch on YouTube. Share this episode with a friend. Maybe share it with your siblings. And we will see Thursday. Have a great week, guys. Bye.