Girls Know Nothing - S1 Ep12: Britains youngest barrister SPILLS the secrets of being a woman in law and the TRUTH behind the old boys club.

Episode Date: October 20, 2022

Summoned to the bar at just 21, our next guest Grace Gwynne spills the secrets of being the youngest barrister in the UK, being attractive in law and the effects. The TRUTH behind the old boys club and exactly what it feels to be a woman in law!

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so you can reach the people you want faster. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non-sponsored jobs. Don't wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get-K-A-T-Z 13. Just go to Indeed.com slash P-O-D-K-A-T-Z 13 right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Know Nothing. Today on my sofa, I say on my sofa, there's two separate chairs, but I have Grace with me, who is one of Britain's youngest barristers. And we're going to talk about what it's like to be a woman in law. Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

No, it's my pleasure. For those people that don't know you, they might have watched you on TED Talk, but for those that don't know you, if you want to give an introduction. Yeah, so I'm Grace. I became a barrister when I was 21. And when I say that, I mean, I was called to the bar at the age of 21. I then worked in America for a little while whilst I was trying to get my pupillage, which is like my training year in England. I then paralegaled for a bit in England got my training year trained properly about the age of 23 24 and now I practice in personal injury and family I used to do crime but I stopped it a couple of years ago but yeah now just family and civil but it's weird because people automatically assume once you've done your law degree that's

pretty much it yeah it's literally the starting position yeah so you actually can't do a lot a lot with a law degree other than say i've got a law degree yeah um so i then did another year where you sort of transform your law degree into something practical which is called when i did it was called the bptc the bar professional training course and it's like a barrister boot camp um for a year and they they transform all of your academic skills and everything you've learned into the practical. So you learn how to cross-examine, how to manage a witness, how to do a client conference and they get actors in to play those parts and they'll instruct actors to be really obstructive or dismissive so you can practice a variety of skills. And then you need to get chambers to take a leap of faith in you and allow

you to come and train with them for a year. And at the end of that year, they either say, yes, we'll have you or no, no, thank you. So yeah, it's five years if you do it as quick as possible. Yeah, because you're only 27. Yeah. But in my mind, like when I was doing my law degree, the average lawyer was like 35, like youngest. Yeah. And I think that there's so much to it, you know, it's expensive to do. And so that puts a lot of people off. People have to work throughout it. People do it part time with children or whatnot. But I did it as quick as I possibly could. And I was a fully fledged barrister in my own right

in court every day at 24. Yeah, that's pretty impressive. You must be knackered by the time of 24. You must have felt like way beyond your years. But I think it's one of the things that I really wanted to talk to you about. It's like, well, about your career, kind of what persuaded you to get involved in law in the first place, like how you chose your career path? The real answer is I loved an argument when I was a kid. That's literally how it started. I was very argumentative. I was stubborn. I was opinionated. And I remember I was about 16 and I was watching a television show and they had barristers. I didn't know what a barrister was before. I'd had no family that were lawyers or

barristers. And I saw these people in wigs and gowns and I was thinking, oh my God, they get paid to argue. And I did a lot of acting when I was a child. So I was very used to being, you know, on the stage in a theatre and in a costume. And so for me, being a barrister was all of those things anyway. You know, the spotlight's on you, you've got a live audience, you're in a costume, but you've got the academic stimulation and it was that that I was missing um so I googled how to become a barrister and I followed the steps and it was literally as simple as that it was weird because um off camera like we were briefly chatting about the traits of um a lawyer or a barrister in school and like the types of words that teachers

would use towards you yeah and you said you loved an argument. Yeah. And we both said that we got told we talked too much. Yeah. Told that we were both too opinionated. Yeah. And then again, like the word sassy. Well, the word sassy is interesting because I get called it quite a lot.

But it's because I'm a woman, you know, and it's that connotation that if I was a man, it would be probably forceful or, you know, confident. But because I'm a woman, it's, oh forceful or, you know, confident. But because I'm a woman, it's, oh, she's a bit sassy, you know. And there are certain times I don't mind it. But there are sometimes it can be quite dismissive. But yeah, the whole you talk too much, you're opinionated from school. They've just paved my way to become a lawyer professionally. So do you think you would have got to the realization that you wanted to pursue law earlier had they used those words in a positive way instead of a negative way? I just think it's more about being open. But the profession is quite secretive and it's not built to be that way. It just so happens that traditionally, unless you came from a long line of lawyers or extremely wealthy families, you weren't even aware about this job.

And I think we need to make it more accessible. And I think if we change that, you know, by doing things like this, because for me, I had a stereotype of what a barrister was. And it was a white man in his 50s, probably educated from Oxford, dad, granddad, great granddad, all lawyers and judges and so much money. And so for me, I just never even thought it was a viable option for me until I actually started looking into it and thought, hang on, there's no reason I can't do this. But I think the more people see that, you know, I class myself as a regular girl, you know, I just work hard. The more people see that I am a barrister and people like me are barristers, then it becomes more of an accessible profession. I think that's what we need.

Yeah. And I think it starts with school age. So I used to do mock trial in school. Yeah, there you go. And we were the only state-run school that were in my area to participate in mock trials. That automatically puts in your head that you have to come from a private school or from a wealthy family to do that. So it's really nice to actually sit down and speak with from a wealthy family to do that um so like it's really nice

to actually like sit down and speak with somebody who's had to do it the hard way by learning on your own and actually i now i'm an ambassador for inner city schools that are running mock trial competitions and they get me in to train the kids so probably 14 to 16 about how to conduct and i've probably had about seven or eight kids just from one school that have since emailed me saying, can we do work experience with you? And that's brilliant because it shows that they actually want to pursue it and they think they can, which is fantastic.

Does it, do you feel like a sense of responsibility to pave the way for other people to do the same as you? It's not a responsibility. I think it's a privilege because I wish I had someone at a younger age that could have done the same for me, but I just didn't know anyone. And so if I could be one person that goes into school

and changes one child's mind into what they might want to be, then that's fantastic. Because if I don't go in, they may never come across a barrister. They might not even realise that it's an actual career that you can pursue. So that's what I think is important.

It's an honour to be able to do that. I think as well, when we were talking about routes into law and like, you know, you saying that what you automatically assumed as a barrister is Oxbridge educated. Was that something that ever like worried you a little bit when you were picking university options? Yes. And it worried me even more when I was picking chambers to apply to. Because, for example, the chambers I'm at now, the first year I applied for pupillage to go to a chambers, I didn't even apply to them because they are so brilliant. And they have a lot of Oxbridge people that I just simply thought

I wasn't good enough to belong to them. And I thought, don't waste your time applying when they're just going to dismiss it because of how good they are. So it was definitely something when you Google Chambers and you read their portfolios, and this is, you know, a lot of sets in London as well have it, you know, nine out of 10 are Oxbridge. And you think, well, you know, I went to Manchester and I'm glad I did at the best three years. But you do think, well, why would they want me when they've got an Oxbridge candidate? So it was more so when I was going for

pupillage than universities. It's really weird to say that because Manchester is an incredible institution anyway. Incredibly hard to get into to read law. So like, you know, there's a lot of people that have, well, we'll get to the part where we ask questions that people have asked, but a lot of those law students don't even come from like Russell Group universities, and they're worried about pursuing the next steps of law. Yeah. I think it was just because when you look at the best of the best, your mind automatically goes to Oxbridge. And I knew to be a lawyer, you had to be at the top because it was so competitive. And so when I'd look at my peers that were Oxbridge, I thought, well, you've automatically got a leg up over me. And so when I'd look at my peers that were Oxbridge, I thought, well, you've automatically got a leg up over me.

And so I found myself really trying to convince panels even more that I was still as good as them despite not going to Oxbridge. Even though Manchester's brilliant, there's still that worry that because barristers are the elite, that they would only want Oxbridge, but that's far from accurate. And only having gone through it, do I actually know now that that's not right at all. Some of the best barristers I know are not Oxbridge educated.

So what do you... I am one of them. Well, I mean, you know, if you can't blow your own trumpet, then who will? Do you know what I mean? They're not here. They don't know.

No one's here to fact check me. But if you... What would you say to like the younger version of yourself now knowing what you know now? To just keep working hard to persevere and there was times where rejection rejection was rife you know I probably got rejected from about 50 chambers across three-year period that with each rejection you've just got to keep going because each rejection is a close is a step close to success um and that it's

okay to be downbeat and sad and disappointed. But if you just keep grinding, that you will get there. Yeah, no, I think that's amazing. Because I know that people that haven't got to that point yet in their career will also worry about the rejection. The rejection's insane. And you've got to be prepared for it. You know, I remember the third year of applying,

and I was devastated. I'd waited to hear back from the last chambers and it was a rejection and I thought, I'm done. Because there was nothing more that I could do. You know, I tried and I tried. I've done loads of different things. And I thought, if they don't want me now, then they're never going to want me. But the point is, I wanted to be a barrister.

And so you have to push through that to get there. And if you get turned away, then it is what it is is but it's hard because a lot of people don't realize there are hundreds of applicants for one spot so it's actually less about you it's more about just how fierce the competition is um so it's hard yeah but rejection will happen to every barrister and has happened to even the best barristers I know. So I know going on from like about the, well, access to the route to becoming a barrister. Off camera briefly, we were talking about what the basics or starting salary of a barrister is. Yeah. And how ridiculously low it is. What do you think like more can be like, we could do more to

encourage people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds into the industry the problem is is that people also don't know that there's financial support out there so to be a barrister you have to belong to an inn of court and there are four inns of court and it's basically an organization that becomes your home and they look after you for the rest of your life. And they offer scholarships, but they're not widely known about or talked about. And they offer scholarships, they offer bursaries. And so there is that financial support. And a lot of them are means tested as well.

So although, you know, my pupillage award for my training year was £16,000. A lot of people look at barristers and think you're raking it in. And I really wasn't. I was working a 70 hour week for £16,000 a year. But for people, you know, I had parents that could support me. For people that don't, there are avenues where you can get scholarships and bursaries. And so it is an accessible profession if you know where to look.

So that's the difference. Yeah, it's mental to think that your salary was 16,000. When you imagine doing 70 hours a week in a supermarket, for example, you'd be earning more than that. Exactly. And that's why, you know, the strikes have just ended. But that's why the strikes are so important for the criminal barristers, of which I no longer am. But their average salary for the first three years is 12,000. And when you think of that, when you've got mortgage, rent, children, bills, that's why they were striking, because they needed more financial help from the government.

So the stereotype or the assumption that barristers, all of them are raking hundreds of thousands of pounds in a year, is just not right. No, it's that like tiny, tiny minority at the top. Yeah, they're chilling. They're absolutely fine at the top. Yeah, they're chilling. They're absolutely fine at the top. They're not the ones on strike. No.

Or they're the ones that are coming out on strike to say we stand in support of our junior barristers because I'm a junior barrister. And so my criminal barrister friends, you know, they're hurting. Did you feel like you were supported by more senior barristers when you were kind of going

through the process? What, of pupillage or the strikes? Well. So, I don't know about the strikes because they didn't personally impact me

because I don't do crime, but I did see a lot of senior barristers out on strike with them, you know, standing on the picket lines, in front of the courts,

talking to the media and taking part in the strike. So, that was good to see. Because although it didn't financially affect them, they still stand in solidarity. Because it's about the future of the barristers coming in as well. But when I was in pupillage, I was well supported.

There are the occasional people that aren't that supportive or have a weird feeling about, I feel, young women coming through the bar, especially women that are normal and enjoy having a social life or might wear makeup or might have blonde hair, you know, and there are those people. But by and large, they are supportive. Yes. It's kind of like referred to as like legally blonde all the time, isn't it? Yeah. You know how she felt when she was walking through Harvard. Yeah that and I think there's always um well we can come on but there's a lot of men that don't believe that I'm a barrister because of the way I look

I find that well I mean it's something that I experienced in my career never like not as a barrister but just as a person in general you, like I enjoyed reading Vogue on the tube and people automatically assume that I'm thick because I'm reading Vogue and not the Financial Times. Yeah, yeah, no, I know. Or I wore a puffer coat last week, so apparently I couldn't be a barrister, my opponent said to me. I walked into a courtroom and I said, oh, Mr. So-and-so, are you involved in the case of, let's say, Jones? He looked at me and he said, oh, Mr. So-and-so, are you involved in the case of, let's say, Jones? He looked at me and he said, are you my client? I said, no, I'm your opponent.

And he went, oh, I'm ever so sorry, it was the coat. I said, it's a lovely long puffer coat. What are you talking about? It's cold outside. Do you know that we're in the UK? So, you know, but it happens all the time. But then he got, I think he was even more embarrassed than I was.

But he genuinely thought I was a client because I was wearing a coat. His mind could not automatically go to the fact I was his opponent. It's also slightly embarrassing that he doesn't know who his client is. Well, the thing is, actually a lot of us don't, because for certain cases, if you've been on the case for a long time

and it's kept going back to court, fine, you obviously know who your client is, but especially when I do personal injury, if you're turning up on the day of the trial, you'll go an hour before and you will meet your client is. But especially when I do personal injury, if you're turning up on the day of the trial, you'll go an hour before and you will meet your client that hour before. So it does happen, but you just should never assume who that person is. I could have been anyone. But yeah, it does happen. I'd have loved to see his face if you told me you're the judge. Imagine. Yeah, literally. But I've had it all the the time I've been asked if I was the work

experience kid um I've been mistaken for a court usher for a court reporter the solicitor the client it the never ever is the first assumption that I am the barrister never it's it's really disheartening to hear that because I feel like it's there's a massive issue not even just in the legal profession, but across the board with if you're an ethnic minority or if you're a young woman, that you can't be the top profession. Like I know people that are doctors, but because they're young women as well,

they're automatically asked if they're the nurse. Yeah, and that's exactly what it is. Or if I'm walking into court with an older man and he happens to be my client, the court usher will say, oh, Mr. So-and-so, is that your client behind you? And switch our roles. You know, and I'm like, this is uncomfortable. It's sad that you, like, I feel like you're probably used to dealing with it now. You're just like, oh, it's another day in the office. Yeah. So how does that, like, make you feel? feel I mean there are lesser and greater extents to it the man who saw my coves and mistook me for a

client is at the lesser end but there are some at the more extreme end that does bother me um and I think it's more comments you know a man did say to me at a networking event that I couldn't possibly be a barrister and he was just he thought it was was a wind up that I was pretending to be one of the barristers. When they are genuine shock and disbelief, that hurts. But when it's just a quick spur of the moment, you know, assumption, that's less impactful. Because I feel like with him, it wasn't spiteful. No, not at all. He just spoke before he thought. Yeah. Whereas some people have said, well, no barrister would dress like that. She can't be a barrister.

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But like when you say a barrister doesn't dress like that, I don't understand. What, are you supposed to walk around in your wig and robe all the time? Well, to satisfy some people, I would imagine so, yeah. Or, you know,

if I'm out on a night out with my friends and I'm dancing, you know, in a club and we're just with the girls and just having a good time, there was one gentleman that asked me what I did for a living and I told him and he said, no, no, no, no barristers come to a place like this. And it's just like, I can be both people. I can be the serious advocate in court

and do the best for my client, but I can also go out with my friends on a Saturday night and have fun. It's, do you know, that's also like, it's a women's thing, I think. I can't remember what country she was from. There was a European prime minister that got trashed in the media for going out for drinks with her friends. A hundred percent.

You know, I've had judges refuse to listen to my submissions because they can see my real hair underneath my wig and my hair is distracting. So I've had to then leave the courtroom, tuck my hair back under my wig to go back in. Or for example, my nails. For the first two years of practice, I didn't wear any nail varnish on my fingers because a judge had previously said to another woman, but in my presence, that it was um a bit like a a bit uh erotic for her to have painted fingernails it was misleading it was the wrong arena to have such crazy crazy seductive things on her you know so it's just wild but even now my makeup is not like i'm wearing now it's more conservative

in court and although i'm getting older and I'm getting more experience and, you know, I will go to court like this tomorrow, the point is I'm still very mindful and I'm cautious about what I wear because of comments that have been made either to me or around me. A judge said to a female colleague of mine, are you wearing tights or stockings?

You know, and you just, and she was like, um, why is that relevant and he's like oh just curious but in an open courtroom it's like it's the audacity to like even because even if not that I would ever think something like that but if I even if I did it would never come out of my mouth it I just it baffles me but then I believe that I fed into that and became part of the problem in a way because every Sunday night, I would take off my nail varnish because I wouldn't want to have anything

about my appearance distract anyone from what I was saying. And I wanted to be taken as a serious barrister. And now I know as I'm older that I can still have my hair down or have nail varnish on and still be a serious barrister now. But for the first few years, I was terrified of that.

Did you find it really hard that you felt like you had to change elements of who you are? 100%. Like I've always had my nails done. And I know it's something so minor, but it's something, you know, I wear makeup, I had really bad skin as well, especially when I first started the job. And I remember putting, it was like balance in the morning, you put just enough makeup on to make me feel comfortable and confident because ultimately I've got to stand in front of a courtroom full of people and be persuasive and you can't be persuasive without

being confident but then equally I didn't want to look him to look at me and think oh ready for a night out are we you know it's just it's yeah it's hard it's hard I can imagine like yeah I can imagine because I think there's a lot of women it doesn't even matter what career you're in that felt exactly the same way especially like you know if you're standing in a boardroom and everyone's looking at you yeah and you're like oh are you looking at me because I'm talking or are you looking at me because I have my eyelashes done 100% and that's another thing that's only happened in the last six months for me to have them back

because I was petrified of being in court with them because I didn't want them to look and think, oh God, she doesn't look like a barrister. Let's not take her seriously. It's like that notion of like,

you know, and I think it's something that we need to talk to kids about as well because if you turn around to a room full of children and say, draw me a barrister.

Yeah. How many of them are going to draw someone that looks like you?. Yeah. How many of them are going to draw someone that looks like you? Yeah. Or how many of them are going to draw someone that looks like,

I'm trying to think of a random barrister off the top of my head, but I can't, like the stereotypical white man. Yeah, 100%. I don't know is the answer. And I hope that

that image changes as time goes on. And that's why I like doing things like this because I want that image to change. But there are such deep-rooted beliefs in the system

that although the bar's getting better, there is still an inherent problem and it's still the old boys club. You know, and that's why I did the TED Talk. It was called Fighting for a Place in the Old Boys Club because that's how it felt. It felt like a constant battle to be accepted by my male peers.

And then you look at the really extreme end and you look at clients and barristers. I've had barristers that have commented on my breasts in front of other barristers, but I've had clients that have refused to have me because I'm a woman or because I'm young. And then that's concerning because you're trying to instill trust and confidence in them that you know what you're doing, but then they have no trust and confidence in you so I did want to talk about your TED talk like how did that come about that happened because a girl I used to do performing arts with messaged me and her girlfriend was one of the creators of TEDx and they asked me if I wanted to do it and I I jumped at the opportunity. So then she said, please speak about your job.

And we want a really interesting insight. And I thought, well, the best one for me to give is my own personal experience of being young and female and doing this job. And so it was about that. And then from that came a lot of conversations with different people that were actually interested to hear what the insight is like in 2019, 2020, whenever it may be. Because again, the stereotype for a lot of conversations with different people that were actually interested to hear what the insight is like in 2019, 2020,

whenever it may be. Because again, the stereotype for a lot of people are that barristers are white men in their 50s. So then when I'm doing things like that and talking about, you know, my other young female barrister friends or my friends who are black doing this profession or Asian and it's creating a whole conversation

about diversity at the bar. What was like the reaction you got initially after your TED talk really positive and actually for the most part it stayed positive there are still men that have commented on social media to say that on certain photos of mine no barrister should be wearing this you shouldn't be wearing this and being a barrister and I'm not saying what I'm wearing in court what I'm wearing in my personal life and there are there are men that have commented oh well she's only got there because she slept with solicitors or judges I've had that one as well and a friend of mine has that a lot she's got a brilliant practice as well and and she gets all when you're sleeping with your solicitor. That's why he's giving you that case. It frustrates me to feel like women cannot be successful on their own without having somebody else give them a hand up.

I know. Yeah, and this practice has ever changed. You have to fight every opportunity because you've got to get the solicitors. You've got to get the cases. You want your clients to keep instructing you. So you're constantly marketing yourself. And it's hard enough as it is without people pushing you back down and saying, well, you've only got that case because you're sleeping with him. No, I'm not. I'm bloody good. That's why I've got that case. But why do I have to keep

trying to prove myself to other people? Where if it was a man, well done, lad. Do you ever find it hard to not take it personally um yeah it is hard but it's i'm not unique and for good or for bad it does make it easier it's wrong but a lot of my female friends are in the same position get accused of these things or oh, oh, well, she must have been done that as a favour. You know, it's never just in your own right. But it needs to change. It needs to stop. And with more women coming through the ranks and joining the bar, it will have to stop because the scales will tip. So what do you think that we could start to do

in order to be able to start changing mindsets with the people that work in the industry? I think we need to encourage more diversity at the bar. Socio-economic backgrounds, women, different races, we need to get that because we need to change the narrative of what a barrister does or should look like. And we need more diversity at the lower end that can then we can push through to the senior end as times go on you know because at the moment it is still predominantly white it is still predominantly male and that we it's it needs to happen over time but it's encouraging making the bar accessible making it open and letting a variety of people come through so that we are a representative profession because we ought to be we represent society

so at least we need to look like them. So do you like, you know, you said you've gone to schools to teach, well, to talk to your own children about mock trial. Do you feel like 14 to 16 is potentially too late to start talking to them

about entering the profession? No, I don't. I think it's a good age because before that, I found they've not really taken career seriously and not looked beyond school. 14 to 16, well, 16, you've got your school work experience

where you have a week off school to do something. At 14, they're already being told about it. And I've been going to predominantly non-white schools as well. And so that's encouraged a conversation. And they, you know, a lot of them didn't know what a barrister was. And I think 14 to 16 is actually quite a good age. Maybe stay more at the 14 end so that by the time the 16 year old work experience has come around they already know what a barrister is and whether they're interested in that profession because I think it comes down to when they pick their GCSE options doesn't it but then it does

but then equally it doesn't really matter what you do for GCSE to be a lawyer doesn't matter what you do for a level doesn't even matter what degree you for GCSE to be a lawyer. It doesn't matter what you do for A-level. It doesn't even matter what degree you do because you can always do the law conversion after. So you have got years to do that. And I would say, pick what you like. Don't pick for your career because there'll always be an opportunity to convert it all after.

Yeah, because it's funny enough, like a lot of people I know that are actually lawyers or training didn't study law. And people that studied law detest the idea of practice. Yeah, exactly. You know, I've got friends that I did my three year law degree with that have not gone anywhere near law as a career. But then also some of my closest barrister friends didn't do law as a degree. So it doesn't actually matter because

you just do your conversion, do what you you like because you'll do well in it. I think it's really empowering to hear is like, you know, it's not a, you know, you coming in as a young barrister and then me, like when I studied law, seeing people in their 40s trying to enter the profession. It's one of those things that I find really inspiring because it's something you can always enter at any age. Any age. Yeah. We had loads of mature students in my university degree and in my bar course, loads that had come to it as a second or even third career. You know, one of my friends at work has been in the army. He's been a doctor, consultant surgeon, and he's now a barrister. That's wild to jump through those.

You know, there's never a wrong or right time to do it. Just if you want to do it, do it. It's going to take a few years. But yeah, it doesn't discriminate. And I think the point is, is that you look at the bar and think it's a secret society. And for many decades it was, but, you know, it's opened up and we want it to carry on opening up to different people of all different ages. Now, a word from our sponsor, BetterHelp. Sometimes managing relationships can be very challenging, whether that's relationships with colleagues, romantic relationships or friendships. And sometimes it can be very tough to be able to work through those and rebuild communication. But how would that be

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Visit betterhelp.com forward slash GKN for 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com forward slash GKN. So one of the things i really wanted to do with this episode is that i know i actively use linkedin to reach out to kind of young women in like politics but i do have a lot of young women in law on my linkedin yeah um and a lot of law students actually reached out to me as well to ask you questions okay so i going to get my phone out and ask these questions. But I do want to give an honourable mention to the boy who thought he was ridiculously funny by asking if you would make him a latte.

Because you don't sound funny, you sound stupid. Yeah, and sadly, that's not the first time I've heard that one. It's very original. So I think it was, you know, I I mean you've pretty much answered how you became a barrister yeah um like what was the process for you being called to the bar like I mean the day itself is fantastic because you're there in your wig and gown you're at your inn of choice and mine is Lincoln's Inn and you're around hundreds of other kids or adults in wigs and gowns. And you go through your whole ceremony. And for the first time, they pronounce you as a barrister. And that is fantastic. But also to get

there, not only do you have to do your one year barrister training, you also have to do 12 qualifying sessions. And a qualifying session is a lecture, a talk or a dinner with other judges and barristers. And until you've done those 12, you cannot be formally called to the bar. I find it when you said to have dinner with barristers very strange. It's bizarre. It's so weird. And, you know, I live in Birmingham. So it was me schlepping down to London with my little suitcase. And you'd sit, you talk to strangers. And for the most part, you don't know what they're talking about because they're talking about something so academic. And you're sat there and you sip out your little thimble of port

and it's just, it's such a bizarre experience. But it's tradition, you've got to do it. It's like the old boys club that you were talking about, right? It's like trying to enter, I was going to, what's it called? I was going to say Eton, that's not right. The club at Oxford, what was it called? See, I to say Eton, that's not right. The club at Oxford.

What was it called? See, I don't even know. No idea. It was like the old boys club in Oxford. I can't remember what it's called off the top of my head. But that's where all the prime ministers came from. Right, yeah.

I think I've seen that in a drama actually. Yeah, I think I know what you mean. But yeah, and it is just bizarre because you're told where to sit. You're told you can't leave the table at certain times. You have to stand. You're told you can't leave the table at certain times. You have to stand.

You have to normally say the Lord's Prayer. It's just, it's very, you say, God bless the Queen. Well, I did say, God bless the Queen. It's honestly, it's wild. Yeah, it sounds like a completely different world. Yeah, it is. Is it? So, I mean, someone asked if this is something you always wanted to do.

You said it is. But if you hadn't got called to the bar, what would you see yourself doing? Well, I was doing acting for 12 years before I ever tried this crazy job. So I probably would have stayed doing that because I loved it, but I just wanted some academic as well. So I was 16 when I decided to become a barrister and then just push my way through. But I probably would have tried to make it as an actress, I guess.

So I think public speaking, where I can be centre of attention. Do you ever think we could see like a Judge Rinder type, like Judge Grace? I would love to be judged. That's the goal. I want to be a Silk and I want to be a judge. That is my long-term goal. I was going to ask you about whether you wanted to become Silk because I've witnessed one of the ceremonies, on the other side like working oh really freezing

cold in there so i would recommend layers if you're going under the gown yeah yeah yeah um so i mean i don't know if this is oh i'm going to go we've i feel like we've talked a lot about these questions but um i think so one of the women of message saying that she's currently in her third year of her LLB. Yeah. She wanted to know if you did your postgrad or you went straight to the bar. So I didn't do a postgrad,

but the BPTC is technically a postgrad because it's a second sort of qualifying. So no, I went straight from my graduation in July 2016. And then September 2016, I started my bar course. Did you find that not doing a postgraduate like made any difference at all? No.

And the vast majority that I know didn't. But it's again, personal choice. If you've got an interest, do it because you can always do the bar after. But don't think, oh my God, I need to do a postgrad to get no you don't need to because i think there's some unit there's some specialist law universities in london that try and force the two together okay and it's like you know when i was looking at options it always freaks you out because you're

like oh do i need to do a postgrad yeah or not and then they're forcing you to do both at the same time which i can imagine is like... Overwhelming, I would imagine. A lot of, I would say, blood, sweat and tears. It's probably just mostly tears. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think a law degree in itself is mostly tears, let alone a postgrad as well. Oh, I can imagine.

So a person asked if there are any... If you've got any... I'm trying to think about the way to word this. Are there any misconceptions about the bar not being female-friendly? Are there any misconceptions? Is the bar female-friendly? Yeah.

It can be. Are all barristers female-friendly? Absolutely not. So the bar in itself, yes, I would say it is a female-friendly atmosphere. But in regards to practicality, if you're a childcare, as it ordinarily falls to the woman

it's difficult because you're you're in court until the judge releases you so I've seen women frantically text under the desk trying to arrange child care um so in that sense it's not female friendly in the sense of a friend of mine was lactating during a court trial asked for an adjournment from the judge so she could go to the car and express because she was in pain. The judge said, yeah, you can have as long as you want. And three minutes later, the judge said, no, I want everyone back. And this poor lady had to walk from the car to the court with a pump still on her so she could still express and get back into court on time. And this was a female judge as well. So there are certain aspects that are not female friendly at all. And it's a person by person situation.

I've had men that are not female friendly to me in the slightest. That man that I was saying that commented on my breasts was in public and it was humiliating and it was degrading and it was in my training year.

So I couldn't even say anything because of the power imbalance. He's not female friendly at all. But my experience as a whole, it has been female friendly yes I was going to ask you have you um ever had anybody ask you about future family plans um yes I have I've had uh judges and uh male barristers comment that pregnancy is catching like wildfire. And it's bad for the business because if you're on a case, then we don't want you to get pregnant. It's coming up in a few months. I've had comments like that. They've been in a negative way because they will affect whether I can do a case in X amount of months time. So yes, I have had that.

And I can imagine it's really tough as well because if you're a self-employed barrister that impacts your business and then your ability to afford life 100% but it's still a personal decision and I just don't think it should be mentioned at all

you know because what happens if people are struggling to conceive or have just miscarried you know you're asking questions like that it's too personal

but yeah it's often mentioned at least in my presence has been mentioned in quite a derogatory way this was a few years ago um but to say that it would be inconvenient if you were to get pregnant now but they never ask a man or tell a man that it'd be inconvenient if he decided to have no children no because he obviously doesn't have any parental responsibility in that sense for the vast majority you know no it does fall more of a to a woman um

but interestingly about comments made men and women when i was doing crime i was prosecuting um a lot of domestic violence and there was this one particular incident where i'd got a guilty verdict for this uh this gentleman i was obviously very happy with my case. The complainant victim was very happy. And as he was walking out of court, he said, can I swear on this? Yeah. He said, I'm going to fucking rape you.

Okay. That was only because I'm a woman. He would not have said that to a man. He could have threatened other violence, but the sexual violence is because I'm a woman. And I've had that on multiple occasions with different people that I've been prosecuting when I did crime. So again, there are differences between the way clients, judges and barristers can speak to men and women. Was it the comments like that that made you want to leave

criminal law behind? No, actually, those comments were annoying, but they didn't factor at all in my decision to leave crime. I just had much more passion and enjoyment for family and civil. And you can't do all three for very long because it's too much. And you can't stay on top of the law in all three for very long. And I had to lose one, and I chose to drop crime. Do you find that family law can be really tough on your mental health? Yeah. The difficulties of barrister is there's no aftercare. So we're seeing photos of a lot of child sex abuse. We're seeing statements, experiences and cross-examining witnesses about it. And then you're expected to go home and dust it off.

That's difficult. The police have an outlet. They have a support system. The bar, I believe there's some kind of helpline you can call, but it's not widely known about. And a lot of it, you are just expected to just brush it off and go back the next day. And the content is graphic. Now I do family, I do a lot of sex crimes

and a lot of child sex abuse. And so that can get overwhelming, especially when those cases are back to back and you're around the people accused of committing these a lot. Yeah so following on from that one of the other questions is that how would how do you feel defending somebody accused of committing sexual crime? I get that quite a lot because I think it's the go-to. It's how can you represent someone you know is guilty and how can you represent someone that's accused of committing a sexual crime?

The point is everyone's entitled to a barrister and everyone's got a case to put forward. You are limited to your instructions. So it doesn't actually matter what I believe. Those are my instructions and I'm going to present your case to the best of my ability. Do I think morally? I hope the judge sees through this. Maybe, but it doesn't matter because for those moments, those hours that I'm in a conference or I'm in a courtroom,

my opinion is irrelevant. And so no, it doesn't affect me. I can see why people would think it does or would, but but no because you are entitled and just because you may have a gut feeling doesn't stand for anything he's still got evidence to test he's still got a case to put forward or she but my experience it's predominantly male

but no it doesn't actually affect me maybe it should I don't know but it doesn't maybe do you find that you've become completely desensitized to a lot of stuff yeah and I've learned I've felt that as I've gone on. Cases where I used to be emotionally affected, I now do with almost no impact on me at the moment.

Whether that comes years down the line, I think, oh gosh. But at the moment, there just isn't time. That's the thing. You get a case, you prep the case. And the pages we might get are run to the thousands of pages we have to read through you're in court you present the case you go home and then you've got another one the next day so whether it's for lack of time

for processing what's going on but there have been there have been two that really affected me and I was upset about and both were child sex abuse cases. But no, all the other thousands haven't got to me. So what do you do or how do you offset those emotions when cases do affect you? The good thing is, is that a lot of the courts are quite a way away from my home. So I have a long drive home

and I use that drive to decompress, whether that's calling a family member or a friend and maybe not even to talk about it but I use that time to decompress that by the time I get home I'm back to home life I saw an article and it was a police officer kept a American kept a dime in his pocket

and he put a dime in the ashtray on his porch and that meant he was leaving his job at the door and he'd go and be a family man. And then when he went back to work, he'd pick up the dime and put it back in his pocket. And that was his way of dissociating the two. So that was quite interesting. But no, I used a decompress,

go to the gym, go out with my friends. But normally it's just working for the next case. There's no time. Yeah, I guess that dime thing is actually quite interesting. It must be like psychological. I like that. Yeah, I think it must be. But actually quite interesting. It must be like psychological. I like that. Yeah, I think it must be. But also, our outfits are a bit of an armour.

So when I take that suit off, you know, when I go to work, my hair's done, makeup's done, I'm in a suit. When I get home, it's makeup off, bun on top of my head, in a track suit. You know, I'm a different person. I look different. And I think that transition as well helps

because I'm no longer Barrister Grace. I'm just Grace at home. I was going to ask you about outfits actually because there was a segment on a female-based show on ITV where they were talking about women in politics and their outfits. Yeah. And, you know, what, like,

whether they should be more fashionable, less fashionable. And it's like, how do you find the balance of barrister grace, fashionable, but also being strong in your armour, essentially? The answer to that is black. Everything is black because you can't go wrong. I look like I'm going to a funeral every single day. But yeah, I mean, even when Theresa May was in power,

nobody had spoken more about a prime minister's outfits than when Theresa May. And it was always about her shoes, about her suits. And it was like, if that was a man, there wouldn't be this jargon around her. But yeah, black, very conservative, little kitten heels, black tights, you know. I'm not really fashionable in court, I guess. Did you learn to dress like that as a result of people's comments or was that just naturally how you ended up? I copied other barristers that I looked up to

and just bought suits where they bought suits. And I'd ask them, where'd you get your suit from? When I first started, I could only really afford suits from M&S. And then as time's gone on, I'd say, well, where's that suit from? And they'll tell me. So I just follow where they get their suits from.

You can be fashionable. I haven't got time for that. I haven't got time. Black shirt, black suit, black skirt. Good to go. When you watch Legally Blonde, do you do wonder how you've had the time? Yeah, well, it's rubbish.

To look like that. Rubbish. If you look like that, you're not good at your job. That's what I think. You're spending too much time on what you look like and less time on prepping your case. So another question that we had is how easy is it for women to become silks versus men in your experience but i guess you're not i'm not there um from even before you apply the applications

that are sent from men are in the vast majority to women and the reason for that is and it goes back to school, there was a statistic that boys at school will put their hands up if they think they're 50% or more that they're right. Women won't put their hands up until they're 99% sure that they're right because they're fear of getting it wrong. And that's the same with silk. A man statistically will go for silk a couple of years before maybe he ought to. A woman will go for silk a few years past she should have because she's underconfident and the man thinks, oh, I could do this. So that is a factor.

But also, we have to look at childcare. And when you take silk, it's a big responsibility. Your workload changes. And a lot of people don't want that balance. They don't want to have to sacrifice family life for silk and they're happy with other practices so I think that it definitely is a factor other other external factors I'm not sure because I'm not in the application process yet and won't be for a long time um but I know those two are key components

for silk how would you know when you're ready for Silk? I was speaking to a friend of mine who's a Silk the day, and I said, how did you know? He was like, I didn't. People just kept telling me I should be going for Silk, so I just did it. I was like, right, well, no one said that to me yet, so I'll wait, I guess.

So I just keep messaging you randomly, like, I think you're ready for Silk now. Please, you can be one of my references. I'll say, look. This girl on Instagram told me that I'm ready for silks. Here I am. So one of my friends is a training solicitor, and she wants tips on how to tackle the gender bias

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It's making hours more flexible. Flexible working is a dream and should be supported by every single organization out there. It should mean that if you want to go there to drop off and pick up your child, you can be there. If you want to work at home because your child's poorly, you should be able to do that.

And it's making those supportive environments so that women can thrive as much as men. Because at the moment, the odds are stacked against us because we can't simply drop children off at a daycare that doesn't exist or a nanny or a childminder that won't have them past six o'clock so we need to be practical and pragmatic in looking at the real life situations that women tend to be women are faced with and being proactive don't be reactive be proactive um so that's why i would say in regards to a practical sense but in in regards to sort of the theoretical inequality is keep having the conversation i'm going to an organization in london in a fortnight to talk to their senior directors about gender inequality just so hopefully the message can come in at the top and then trickle down so again it's continuing having a conversation but actually putting them

into action and so let's think look let's look at our policies and how can they support women in the workplace? I guess it's that whole thing about bystander effect, isn't it? Like, as long as if you see something that kind of doesn't sit right with you, if one person speaks up about it and everyone else is thinking the same as you, they're more likely to say something if one person says something as well.

Yeah, and that example I was saying about that man commenting on my breasts in front of a room full of people, I was newly qualified. I've been in that, I haven't been on my feet very long and it was a room full of men. And if one man had stood up and said something that was, that called it out, it would have made the world of difference to me and probably would have prevented that man from making a similar comment to another woman at a later point. But the fact is there's this, sometimes there's an of silence. And it's dangerous because it allows these behaviors to keep

happening. So yeah, absolutely the bystander effect, but it's also appreciating the power you may have. So for me at that point, I had no power. And actually, what's odd to think is when you go through your pupillage at the end, you have to have a vote from everyone. And my place, it had to be a unanimous vote. So I didn't want to annoy him because I wanted his vote. And so it's things like that. It's for like clients. Clients have touched me inappropriately or made inappropriate comments to me at networking events. These are solicitor clients. And again, I sort of stand my ground or brush off the hand, but I don't want to embarrass them because I don't want them to think, oh God, she's a bit sensitive. I don't want to instruct her

again, or she's affected my pride. I don't want to instruct her again. And so then I just have to do it in such a delicate way, but that shouldn't be my issue. The thing is, don't touch me. But the point is, I then have to sort of tiptoe around it to make it known that I don't want that behavior. But equally, I'm not going to embarrass you because it's going to affect my career potentially long term. Yeah, it's one of those things. I think it's a taught behavior or learned behavior from when women are very young. I remember a colleague turned around to me being like, oh, don't tell me you're one of those Me Too women.

Yeah. And I was like, well, don't touch me. Yeah. Or don't make a comment that's going to make me feel uncomfortable and it won't be a problem yeah literally but it's like the common sense thing not not being very common no no it's not but also we get as well as women if we stand up against something we're sensitive yeah and that's a problem that needs to stop because that one really winds me up you know if you've done something or said something you're bang out of order and i call you out on it.

I'm not being sensitive. You're just being a dick, you know? And it's that. No, I agree, definitely. I think, well, one of the other questions is probably more of a dig at me for the way I phrase this on social media. Does it annoy you to be referred to

as a young female barrister as opposed to just a barrister no is the answer because I'm proud to be a young female barrister you know I've worked hard I've got a good practice and I've done it whilst I'm young and whilst I'm a woman so I I'm proud of that title but like anything if it was used in a derogatory way or in a dismissive way then yes I would take offense to it. If a client didn't believe in me because I was young and female, that would annoy me.

So it all depends on the context and the environment in which it's used and the way it's intended to be used. So no, you're referring to me as a young female barrister, it doesn't annoy me. I meant it in a good way. You're good, you're fine. You know, when I worked with young women's charities, when we were talking about childcare,

women provide double what a working week is in out of work yeah care yeah not even necessarily to children but to family members like household things so in my mind if you know you've had to work 10 times harder than some of your male peers to be where you are at the same place as them so to me i only mean it in like an empowering way as opposed to being like well you're a young woman yeah and that's how and that's how I take it and that's why I own that title because I enjoy having that title I'm not going to have the young title for much longer so I'm going to enjoy it while it lasts you're only as young as you feel but I guess if you're doing 70 hour weeks then it's probably my 86 then do you ever worry that like you don't get to enjoy being you if you're doing 70 hour weeks. Yeah, I'm 86 then. Do you ever worry that like,

you don't get to enjoy being you if you're working 80 hours a week? Do you know what? No, because you can have such a laugh with this job. I think there's so much darkness that comes with it that there happens to be a real camaraderie at the bar. And so no, because some of the cases I've worked on for weeks, I've had a real laugh behind the scenes because you have to get through it. So no, I think you can. And also no, because some of the cases I've worked on for weeks, I've had a real laugh

behind the scenes because you have to get through it. So no, I think you can. And also it's part of me. You know, I'm proud to be a professional and a lawyer. So I'm still me at work. I'm just a watered down version of me. And the best thing as a lawyer, if you can make a judge laugh, you've won your whole case. So as funny as I am in my real life, I put it on to sometimes, you know, make, if I can make a judge laugh during a cross-examination, I can go home, I'm done, I've won it. That's my little moment. And you get a few of these in this job, you know, the best one is when you cross-examine someone and they give the craziest answer and you know, and you exchange a look with the judge and you both know that they've just done themselves in with this.

And then you just say, no further questions and sit down. And that is like, thug life, mic drop. That's everything then. You should get your own soundtrack to walk back to your table with. Like ring music. Yeah. I'll look into that. I might not get silk if I ever do that.

And I might be kicked out of the profession, but I'll give it a go. Maybe like, well, this would be years down the line, hopefully, maybe on your last case. Yeah. Yeah. I'll bear that in mind. Another thing that actually has just come to mind, regional accents is another that I was very aware of. Oh, yeah, actually. Because I'm a very proud Brummie. But whether it's because the school I went to and I was the most Brummie in my class by far, I have toned down my Birmingham accent subconsciously. And that's through fear of not being accepted by the profession.

And that's another thing, because so many people have reached out to me and said, well, I'm a Scouser, I'm a Geordie, da-da-da-da. I'm from Essex. And actually, I think having a Birmingham twang has helped me because it's made me more relatable to my clients I'm not this like

hoity-toity barrister and judges are scousers Geordie there's a brilliant scouse barrister and you know regional accents actually are not a bar

to being a barrister whatsoever and they can help you because you're more relatable to a client Yeah because I know loads of people that have gone through

elocution lessons. Sad. Not even just in a legal profession, but they're just worried that their regional accents going to impact their ability to become a senior or anything. And it's crazy because when I'm in court, I have a court voice. And it's like having a telephone voice.

It just happens. Everyone has one. And when I do media things, I have my friends call me and they say, you don't sound like that. And it's like having a telephone voice it just happens you know everyone has one and when I do media things I have my friends call me and they say you don't sound like that and it's not intentional it just happens because I think I'm presenting you know myself but so I'm a bit of a hypocrite in that sense and if I could stop it I would but a regional accent I think can really help your career. That's really interesting take on it because I feel like a lot of people would say the complete opposite. Yeah well that's that's the misconception, I would say. But I've had so many barristers like,

you're a brummie. I'm like, yeah. And it started that rapport. And then they can think, oh, well, fellow brummie, like, and you seem more normal. And so they're going to be more trusting of you, because they think, oh, well, she's not going to judge me as much as, you know, I thought, oh, well, Oxbridge, whatever. And it just means you can have a laugh. But yeah, so it has actually really helped me. So I always ask guests the same final question. Okay. So what would you say to people in your past and people in the future that doubt your success based on the fact you're a woman? Oh God, that's a massive question. Yeah, sorry. I should break that down really. So people in the past. Yeah. I did it. I'm a barrister and I, that's a massive question. Yeah, sorry, I should have broke that down really. So people in the past,

I did it, I'm a barrister and I'm bloody good at my job. So that to anyone in the past, absolutely. Anyone in the future,

look what I can achieve by the time I'm 27, just watch what I'll achieve for the rest of my life. Yeah, watch the next 27 years. Yeah, that's what I'd say. Might drop,

thug life, I'm off. We'll get the editor to put that little, like, say might drop the glass off we'll get the editor to put that a little like you know when the sunglasses come down it might be beyond my editing capabilities I'm sure we can get someone to look at it but um honestly thank you so much for being a guest I do you know what even if people that were watching it don't learn anything I feel like I've learned so much oh thanks for having me um So I really appreciated this conversation and I'm really excited.

I'm going to watch your TED Talk after you leave now. So hopefully we'll get to see some more from you. Yeah, absolutely. No, thank you for having me. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy, just use Indeed.

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