Girls Know Nothing - S1 Ep15: Jess Davies talks Deep Fake Porn and Trading Nudes!

Episode Date: November 10, 2022

Jess was a model turned TV presenter for BBC discussing subjects such as deep fake porn! An episode not to be missed. https://youtu.be/a1Nq84clDh4

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doing all kinds of documentaries. And, you know, like I said to you earlier, when I was Googling you, I was like, this poor girl has had a hell of a time. But for people that don't know you if you want to give yourself a bit of an introduction yeah so I started off glamour modeling when I was 18 so I was contracted with Zoo, Daily Star, Shopping Nuts, FHM all of the kind of big mags and then I was at uni in Wales at the time so I went for a stage of um I guess

really like liberal feminism which I'm sure I'll get into and I was like no my body my choice and then I was like I don't really actually enjoy everything else that comes with it so I stopped doing the glam modeling uh and then the last couple years I've kind of got into presenting and I've done two documentaries with BBC3 so far looking at women's rights really and how women are treated online which is something that I've yet unfortunately experienced a lot of negativity of that online in the last god like 10 years really. So what kind of inspired your decision to go into glamour modeling then? I always wanted to be a model I don't know where my confidence came from but you know when I was like 12 or 13 I was like yeah I'm just gonna be a model but I'm like 5'5 I had like d-sized boobs

when I was 13 years old. Oh my God. I know. So I was never going to be a Kate Moss kind of style. And then when I was 18, I just applied to a few agencies and they all came back and were like, you should just try glam modeling. Like you don't really fit here,

but I think you should go down that route. So I just applied to a couple agencies that kind of specified that they were, you know, glam agencies and went from there really. I was on a train. So I'm from Wales, I live in Cardiff and I was on the train down just for a casting with Nuts magazine.

I'd never done like a professional shoot before. And then my agent messaged me and was like, oh, they're going to shoot you today. And I was like, what? Like, I don't know. Oh my God. And I got there and it was just like crazy. I remember, you know,

I come from like a small town back in Wales. I went to Cardiff for uni, but like a car picked me up from London Pantan and took me to this London like house. I was like, this is amazing. And as soon as we walked in, there was like four girls, just all topless eating pizza. And I was like, where am I?

What is this kind of world that I just stepped into? So I kind of just fell into it. And then from there, from that nutshell, I got contracted with Zoo and I was doing it for about three years but yeah it was such like in the grand scheme of thing I guess it was only quite a small part of my life but I feel like it's kind of shaped what other people think of me that now all these years on I'm trying to like shake it off and process the industry I guess and like what I went through it's weird because like well when you when you said that you had double D boobs in your teenage years,

I mean, I'm 26 now and I still don't have that without help. So it's weird because like a decade ago, they were very into like the whole natural vibe and they wanted the girl next door. But like all of those publications you did were like massive names. I probably would have seen you on a cover of something

at some point, surely. Yeah, probably. Or like turning the page through and I was there. But they were, I think that was, I guess, one of the good things that I thought was really good about the Glamour magazines were they were kind of applauding natural girls. And they were one of the first ones to have a plus-size girl on the front cover.

I mean, you never saw that back in the day in like women's magazines. And I've always been like obsessed with celebrity magazines. I'd always get like Heat Mag, Sugar Mag growing up. So I was really influenced by that kind of diet culture. So seeing that on a nut sheet, you'd go down, you have all these different sized girls and everyone's really confident in their bodies. You have real boobs, fake boobs, small boobs.

Like that side of it was actually really positive. So for me, it's like, I think when I started out this shows my age when I started out the internet wasn't such a huge thing like social media so I would go to a shoot and it'd be through my agency and there'd be contracts and it was all felt really safe then it would go in the magazine the next month and then that would be it and then I guess a year later like Twitter and Instagram really started exploding And then it went from just being a fun day with like your new friends that you work with to being hundreds of men telling you what they want to do to you on social media. And as an 18, 19 year old, I was like, yeah, I don't think I signed up for this.

And it was trying to process, I guess, being really sexualized by people. When for me, I just enjoyed like the glamour of going to a photo shoot and have your pictures done, your hair and makeup done. And and then all of a sudden you kind of know what men are thinking I think a lot of people probably assume that you know you're really hyper sexualized when you go to these shoots but it really wasn't like that so then when you read what men are saying and what they're doing to you and they're sending you pictures you know unsolicited dick pics and all of that you're like, maybe I didn't realize that this is what I was signing up for.

So yeah, I think as soon as social media started playing a part of it, that's when it really turned me off that kind of world. Is that what, so social media is kind of basically what inspired you to move away from the industry? Yeah, you know, my Twitter following grew really organically because Twitter was growing really organically because Twitter was

growing really organically at the time. So it was something that I was like, processing, I guess. And then I was posting images. I was like, well, I'll just post an image of me in a bikini because that's what I do. But then I was getting no self-satisfaction from it. And I was like, why am I even posting this? And then men were commenting. Then I was getting annoyed at the men commenting and sending me images. And it just really took me a while where I decided a few years ago to really step back and be like okay I'm not going to post that kind of content anymore because it's not really serving me and I don't like the comments that I'm getting I don't like the attention I'm getting and actually wanted to post stuff that I felt passionate about which was feminism I did sociology at university so it's

always been something that I've kind of been interested in society and how it works so yeah it was a real big pivot I guess going from glamour model to now like an outspoken feminist but it kind of lined up for me I think yeah I think I mean because you got a kind of background and experience doesn't it but you know we well there's lots of different ways you can go with this but um I did read an article about how images of you that were taken a decade ago and were being traded for vouchers online and is that kind of what came like were they images from your modeling days yeah god it's crazy so over the years I guess as soon as I started modeling I would get images from um I would get messages from men saying why aren't you replying to me on plenty of fish or you know baby I've sent you all this money when are you going to come see me and images from, I would get messages from men saying, why aren't you replying to me on Plenty of Fish?

Or, you know, baby, I've sent you all this money, when are you going to come see me? And I'd be like, I'm sorry, this isn't me you're talking to. And it became such a regular occurrence. I just kind of brushed it off. And then one day, I think it was in like 2020, I just tweeted because that week I'd had like every single day a different guy messaged me about a different fake account, used my images to try and get money out of them or just engage in sexual conversations so I put a tweet out there being like this is outrageous like this isn't me and these images are like 10 years old and it's just exhausting like having to constantly feel like you've got chased your past I guess and justify it to strangers who think they've fallen in love with you. So from that tweet, BBC got in

contact with me just to do an interview. It was going to be just like a 10 minute video interview about catfishing. And then from that original meeting I had with them, it went on to be commissioned as a documentary. So that was my first documentary with BBC Three when news was stolen. And it was crazy, like what I found out because over the years I mean hundreds of fake accounts have been using my images but I just didn't really know why I was like why is it me that they're targeting and then in the doc I met up with a private investigator and they were like well yeah your images are being sold and traded in packs online um in this world that's called e-whoring which is just a disgusting word anyway.

And basically it's where girls' images are packaged up into folders and they'll take stuff from my socials. And the private investigator was like, you've got the perfect social media account because you have like your sexy pictures and your bikinis. And then if they Google you, there's the glamour pictures.

But then I post stuff like out with my friends or cooking at home. And they were like, anytime someone that they're catfishing is like, what are you doing tonight, babe? And I'm like, oh, I'm on the sofa. There's a picture for them there. So they had all this content

that they'd like gathered together and then we're just selling it online. And yeah, in this one forum, they were selling my pack for $10 and they wanted an Amazon gift card. So because a lot of it, I guess, is anonymous, a lot of people doing this are like teenage boys. So they wanted like Just Eat vouchers, pizza vouchers, Amazon gift cards, Bitcoin. And I think, God, like $10, you're like willing to

distribute my images to people and places I never agreed to for a pizza. Like it's grim. It's weird. Well, yeah, for the first of Like, it's grim. It's weird. Well, yeah, for the first of all, when you feel like, am I only worth a pizza? Yeah. It's degrading enough as it is, like, let alone knowing

that your images are being sold without your consent. And it's, I mean, I know there's not, there wasn't that many laws around it, but surely that, like, in my head, I'm thinking, like, copyright law,

if they're using glamour images, there must be something that there that's like stopping them. Apparently there's not. Yeah, it's a really tricky world when it comes to it. So if it was glamour pictures, to say it was like from Nuts magazine, Nuts could go after it,

but this is copyright. But all the magazines are shut down now to start with. Okay. And the photographers, I mean, they got their money, they don't really care. So then if I was trying to file a DMCA takedown online, I don't own the images. So it's not really on me to say that I can get them taken down.

And then some of them, so back when I started modeling when I was 18, I had a member's website. And this was just, I guess, me being naive of the internet. I thought, well, people sign up and they pay $20 a month and then they'd get my images. But only then people would see it because that's what I thought members' websites were.

And I guess the equivalent now would be like an OnlyFans. So I only had about 200, 300 members. It wasn't loads. So I just thought, oh well. And it was these selfie images I had to take of me topless. And I was always saying to my agent

and the people around my website, like, I don't like doing them. It's not what I joined modeling for. I don't want to take pictures of me in my bedroom and I'd always get fined if I didn't send them and I was a uni student I like didn't have much money anyway and they would fine me every single day I didn't send these pictures so I would be sending pictures that were like no makeup on I hadn't planned it so I thought oh well like I just don't want to get fined and only 100 people are going to see it obviously now I understand what the internet is so it's these pictures that keep coming up that catfishes are using um so then I can file like copyright on them but I mean the

internet's just so widespread every time they get taken down they just get re-uploaded again which is what I try and say to people now because I get girls messaging me since my documentaries about OnlyFans and I think it is a really great avenue to make money but I think what really frustrates me is the way that some people in the public eye go out and say how it's about controlling your image and it's really powerful and I'm like but you never control anything you put online and that's a fact and I think luckily for maybe a lot of celebrities they can pay people who will go out, like these subscription sites you can pay,

and they'll file DMCA takedowns for you. But it costs hundreds of pounds a month. Whereas if you're just a girl and you're set, and you're only fans and you don't know any of this and you don't have the contacts, I always say to people, just be happy that if that content gets leaked, it's out there forever

and you probably can't get it taken down. I think that kind of frustrates me around the conversation with only fans because a lot of people go out there forever and you probably can't get it taken down. I think that kind of frustrates me around the conversation with OnlyFans because a lot of people go out there and say, it's really empowering and I'm taking back control and I know where my images are going. And it's like, you unfortunately really don't know where it's going. Yeah, so I had a guest on the podcast last week

who said that he liked the idea of OnlyFans, not just for adult content, but because there's less trolling in a sense that you have to verify who you are. But, you know, if someone screenshots your images, you don't know who that person is that screenshot them. And, you know, I've done a lot of research on Reddit about how, for example, Love Islanders, there is a page now that is Love Islanders not safe for work. And it's a lot of ex-Islander women, OnlyFans images that have been reshared and repurposed. So, you know, you're not even being paid

consensually for these images to go out onto these pages, especially for people that haven't paid you. And it's weird because it even comes back when it comes to dating. So I was on a dating app and a man messaged me a picture of his penis on WhatsApp. I don't know how to say that word, am I? So well, it's too late now.

And he said, well, I've seen this image of you in a top that you're not wearing a bra. And I was like, I chose to put that photo on Instagram. So unless you're planning on uploading that onto Instagram, it's not the same thing. Yeah, it's so weird. And people do get really funny about it. I think they're like, oh, well, you've decided to upload that image on whatever site it may be, if that's a subscription site, and it's behind a paywall, or it's on Instagram. So I can just upload it anywhere.

And it's like, well, no, because there isn't a blanket consent. You know, you own that image, it's an image of you, you've decided where you want it to go and the kind of context behind it and I think that is a huge issue with subscription sites or anything really you know you can put a you know a nude on twitter or anything but you've only consented it to be up there and I think when it comes to copyright we all know that we can't just go and steal Beyonce's songs and take them as our own and upload them somewhere else or we can't go and pirate a film and upload them because that. Or we can't go and pirate a film and upload them because that's illegal. So when it comes to,

mostly it is girls, you know, nudes or images or sexy pictures or content. Why don't we understand that that also is copyright, that you can't just use them for whatever you want. And in my case, I mean, they were selling them as well,

you know, getting money for it. And unfortunately, that is happening to so many girls. So I think there's a lot of positives to Psycho Honey fans definitely but I think for me it's just I really hate the kind of rhetoric that is you're all in control of it because you're not. Does it make you regret ever going into the industry? Yeah definitely I think there's a lot of things that I regret about going into industry I mean I was only 18 and I've still got a lot of like the old magazines that I was in.

And I was looking at them recently and I thought, God, like they say like 18 year old girl, like you need to, and I'm like, that's so young. Like, yeah. And I was really naive and I didn't really know

what this world was about. And I thought it was all really, you know, legit and everyone was out there for my best interests. And unfortunately, that really wasn't the case. And I think I was never fully comfortable with being like topless. It wasn't something that I was like, I love getting my boobs out on camera. It was just,

you'd have your shoe and then you'd usually in bikini or lingerie swimwear. And then like the last few shots, like, okay, now take off the top off the top and it was a bit like okay this is just part and parcel of the job but it was never something like a lot of girls that they found really empowering for me it was just something that came with it so I think now on reflection I really kind of lent into that whole like liberal feminism side of things that um I think at the time Emra just in like blurred blurred lines. And I was really like, yeah, like, my body, my choice, I can do what I want. And I think now, as I've got older, and I've kind of reflected a lot more and learn a lot more, I'm thinking, well, I guess like on the day, perhaps a shoot can be empowering, but everything else that happens, and like the way men do take

the control, and they're buying it, and they're commenting on it, and they're sending unsolicited images, like, that's not empowering to me. and I think I tried to convince myself for so long that it was like liberal feminism where now I'm like actually no I think I was really taken advantage of and went into a world that really played into misogyny that I wasn't willing that willing to be a part of but I just kind of tricked myself if that makes sense yeah and I think you know I love Emrah and I read her book and I really just so much of it because I think being someone who had boobs like I said like at 13 years old I was sexualized from such a young age and called jailbait from guys that were like 20 21 and older

than me and it was just something that was seen like, oh, well, I might as well lean into this because everyone's sexualized me anyway. When actually I wish I just kind of stuck my middle finger up and was like, this is really wrong. So I think now I've probably gone like the extreme and I'm a lot more kind of like radical, feminist and liberal. And I'm like, well, no,

that was really kind of leaning into like male gratification. The male gaze, what they wanted rather than it being me. But that's just my own, I guess, personal feelings around it. I'm sure a lot of girls do find it empowering. But for me, I think when it's the man at the end of the day who's getting the sexual gratification,

like that's not empowering to me. It's also, it's when it plays into like your vulnerability as a university student. The idea of like, to me, 18 is someone who's still a baby. Like if, you know, there's probably men that are older than your parents looking at these images and it's like, well, you wouldn't want them to date someone who's 18.

So do they think it's not a bit weird that they're like really leaning into these imagery? Yeah, it was grim. And to start off with when I actually did gun modeling, I was convinced that I was like, not going to go topless because I had done a couple of pageants. Okay.

Yeah, so I'd done Miss Wales and I'd done Miss Teen Galaxy, Miss Galaxy. So when I did my first shoot for Nuts, it was only meant to be a casting. I was on the train down to have a casting for Nuts magazine. And then my agent phoned me when I was on the train. I like no they want to shoot you today and I was like cool cool but I'd always said I don't do topless by the way like that is not my thing so when I turned up for my

like first ever professional shoot with Nuts Mag I just assumed that knowledge that had been passed on by my agent so I'm in this like sexy lingerie we're doing a shoot I'm 18 years old like my one of my first times in London I I was like, this is crazy. And then they're like, okay, time to like take your top off. And I was like, oh no, sorry. Like, I don't do that. And it was like, it just fell silent.

And there was a crew of about 10 people, all these girls. And I was like, sorry, I don't do that. And they were like, well, you need to phone your agent because this is what you're here for. So I was in this back and forth. And like looking back now, I think I was so proud that at 18, I really did try and like stick to that.

And I really was like, no, I'm not doing this. And in the end, we did come to a compromise and I did implied topless, like hand bra as they call it. So covering up your nipples with your hands. So that was my first shoe. So I never wanted to go topless. And then I did glamorling for about six months and I was in nuts a couple times

through a couple times and then they were like yeah like your career's done if you don't do topless so in the end it was my agent was a bit like well you kind of just need to do it or not so there was a bit of a kind of like debate around contracts and zoo won and I went with zoo and they actually did a countdown to me getting my top off and now when I look back I'm like god it was so grim like I was 18 and like there's like hey hey guys this 18 year old is thinking about getting her boobs out for the first time like what do you think and I'm like well actually that's really gross and like now reading back like the words that accompany it you think god like it's like counting down to

someone being legal for yeah and it was like so grim to me and again i think that's like with the magazines you don't get any say in like the words that are printed and obviously interviews would be printed with them as well i mean you can ask anyone who's in the gum industry the girls didn't say that oh yeah you can tell like i know girls in the glamour industry and the quotes that come with the photos i'm like they've never said that before in their life i know literally and the nuts when i did the big quote was like taking my clothes off is nothing new to me and i had a boyfriend at the time he was going mad and i was like i didn't say that i didn't say that and what i'd said was they were like oh is this

like what's this like and i said oh well when i did um pageants there's a swimwear round so you know it's kind of similar and then they just totally turned it to say that and from that day on I was like right I'm not giving them anything so on shoots they'd be like uh what do you wear to bed I'm like pajamas fluffy full-on pajamas and then they'd print something that'd be like sexy silky pajamas and I like to turn the heat up and get hot and sweaty and I'm like, yeah, whatever. I did not say that. when they go to bed. I'm sorry. If any man has listened to this,

nobody does that. Yeah, literally. So, yeah, I think that's another thing. Like, all the words that get printed with it, like, you had no say over that. So, I guess, again,

I think it comes down to control and I guess OnlyFans and stuff is another reflection of that. Going on from, like, control, it was, I read an article, but I would say briefly because I actually haven't seen the documentary myself, but you said that you'd spoken about imagery,

like body image, especially going into the modeling industry. And I know there's a lot of stigma around pageantry as well about how it impacts young women's body image in terms of like eating disorders and things like that. So I'd like to hear more about like kind of the documentary because I haven't watched it yet. Yeah, no, so it was for the Welsh language channel S4C. So I did a documentary looking back at my life on Instagram and social

media. And then before that, so when I was growing up as a teen, like I was obsessed with celeb magazines, I read them every single week. And I think I, you know, that kind of like world of like Bebo and you'd post pictures. And then it was just something that I was so conscious of growing up. Like I think for me,

my first memory of being conscious of like thinking that I was fat would be like eight years old in my football kit and be like, my legs are bigger than everyone else. This is weird. And since then, it was just always something

that I was really conscious of. and then as I started hitting like 16 17 18 and I guess growing into my body I was really aware of what I was eating but also you know it's really sad but back then it was really trendy to like be really slim and skinny you know with a thigh gap test yeah and you know these magazines I was reading it was like the circle of shame and you know the worst thing you could be is like be a size 12 and it's so sad that that you're heavily influenced from that and when I was in the sixth form like 17 I would go on like pro anorexic sites and read them and like upload my images on there and get praise from girls be like oh my god I wish I was as skinny as you you can see your ribs and you know it was only a few months

that I was like on them sites, but I just really lent into, I think getting praise from girls because, you know, I guess ironically, as much as my job has looked at praise from men, I think it's always the female gaze. I've actually wanted girls to like, think that you look nice and all of that.

So it was something that I really struggled with. And then going into the modeling industry, I think you're always aware of what your body looks like, because of course, my body was my job. And that's what people thought of me. And I think, you know, being sexualized at such a young age, my body was always commented on. So it was like, for me, I really thought my worth was in my body. So I hypersexualized myself and I wanted to be as slim and as skinny as possible and look perfect. And people just compliment me for my looks.

And I think for a long time, that was really all I saw myself as. And I think when I hit about 23, 24 and I wasn't really doing shoots anymore and I really had to try and process, like, who do I even think I am? Like, what am I? Who do I want to be

because for so long I was seeking that validation from everyone like every time I uploaded something online on Instagram and I look skinny girls would tell me I look amazing they were like oh my god like what are you doing I'm like not eating like that's what I'm doing the reality of you know and it's really sad I think that a lot of you know I was doing it looking up to girls online like that and I guess I was also a part of it because I was posting them kind of images. And then on the other hand, I was really seeking out male validation because I didn't really know anything else. So, you know, guys would always try and get with me because it's like, oh my gosh, you're just a model. And then they never actually want to date me and stuff. So I think for a long period,

I was really kind of lost and didn't know where I was and I think it took me you know a good few years to take a step back and be single and be out of that world and change why I was posted on social media and not be in the modeling world and really kind of get to know who I wanted to be and kind of re-evaluate my relationship with my body and my sexuality before I could be fully comfortable to go back out there again. So yeah, it's really been a journey. And I think it's sad that there is so much pressure. And I mean, obviously everyone's affected,

but I think young women especially, there is so much pressure now. And it makes me sad to think of like young kids, like having that pressure on their phone 24 seven, because at least for me, I guess it was magazines. And then I was on like dial-up I mean this makes me feel really old I'm only 29 I'm not like 40. To be fair I remember dial-up so. But I feel like dial-up so I'd come home and I'd be on these these kind of internet and these sites

but then my mum would be like get off the phone and you know get off the wireless I need to use it and then I'd only be allowed on the internet for like two hours a day because my parents would monitor it so you know we didn't have data on our phones because that was like a pound a minute so I think at least I was able to kind of detach a bit from that world and have a bit of breathing space and I think now obviously like 10 year olds have iPhones and they've got Instagram they've got social media and TikTok and all of that so like 24-7 they can be influenced by that and seeing that kind of content and comparing themselves I think that's like a really terrifying thought to think of like that effect it can have on their own kind of self-worth and what they see themselves as yeah because I remember like back I say back in

the day like it was like I'm really old as well but um like you would always see on the cover of all the glossy magazines like so-and-so's put weight on but they have a normal healthy body or so-and-so's lost so much weight and they look great and I remember like even when I was a kid like size six with a body tape measure measuring the circumference of my thighs I played sport six days a week like I was going to be slightly different size to like the rest of my body and it's it wasn't until I mean I don't everyone's opinions of pageantry is a little bit different and I know that a lot of pageant girls listen to this podcast. For me, it wasn't until I hit the Miss category,

I really came into, like, this is my body. You either take it or you don't. But for you, what was your experience of competing? I think I found it quite a negative space. And I guess only because I wasn't really in that world so I felt like you it was quite clicky for me this you know and I felt like it was really competitive and um I've listened to loads of podcasts and watch YouTube's I know quite a lot of girls who've been in pageantry and thought it was amazing and really sisterhood but for me I just did feel like

it was all about the way you looked and you had to fit a certain stereotype. And that was just another thing for me. And I only competed from like the age of 16 to 18, 19, maybe. So it was really short space of time. But whilst I did, it really didn't help me comparing myself to other girls because, and maybe that's just my own, you know, what I was going through as well personally, but it really kind of heightened that thing of being like oh my god I'm not good enough and I'm not I don't look like her or I'm not wearing that dress and I can't afford that kind of dress that they've got and all of that so for me it was quite like a negative experience um but I know so many girls do find it positive so I guess yeah it was just what I was going through at the time as well but I think

yeah it was just like I think just a comparing the time as well. But I think, yeah, it was just like, I think it's just a comparing. And I think there's so many different ways that people do that. Now, I guess it's social media. You know, everyone's comparing their lives to each other on social media. And we know that actually, like that's just a highlight reel,

like everyone says. So, you know, when you're on stage and everyone's wearing like these huge sequins and Tiara's like, well, that's a highlight reel. Yeah, it is. 24-7, you know what I mean? But I think when you're so young,

like 16, 17, 18, you don't really process that. I think actually, like listening to that experience, in my teenage years of competing, I felt that it wasn't until I got older. So I did Miss Universe Great Britain this year. And it wasn't until I was older

that I was like, you either take me as I am or you leave me. But I don't think that's a pageant thing. I think that's a me thing. And I don't think that everybody's like that. Yeah. And I think also, that everybody's like that. Yeah. And I think also, I mean, again, this is like when I was youngest,

maybe like 10 years ago, I think obviously as the conversations and attitudes towards women, our bodies have moved on. I'm sure it is more of a, you know, open space where people can be all different shapes and celebrated and not feel like- Hi, I'm Richard Karn.

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By texting 64000, you agree to receive recurring automated marketing messages from Pocket Hose. Message and data rates may apply. No purchase required. Terms apply. Available at pockethose.com slash terms. They have to be, you know, the perfect woman or girl to be up there on stage. So hopefully, you know, it does seem like it's moved on as well and women aren't feeling like we're competing

and actually you're just competing with yourself, right? That's what we're always just trying to do with the best of ourselves. Yeah, definitely. I think so. One of the other topics I really wanted to talk to you about was your recent documentary with BBC about deepfake porn. Yeah.

And I watched the documentary on the weekend, actually. And it blew my mind because I knew the technology was there and I knew that it was a thing, but I hadn't really considered how big of an issue it was until I'd watched your documentary. Yeah, so Deepfake Porn, Could You Be Next? is the new documentary with BBC Three. And I guess it kind of came from me being in these

spaces these forums where gil's images have been leaked and stolen and stuff so i was actually just regularly checking where my images were and also a lot of my friends who do only fans and glamour models i just check for them as well and i'd be like oh just just let you know this is here and on them kind of sites i was seeing that these threads pop up, deepfakes, deepfakes. So I was having a browse and just noticed how popular they were that these members were requesting deepfake images of normal quote unquote girls. They weren't celebrities. They were just images of girls that looked like they were taken from social media, holiday photos, you know, photos in the mirror. And they were like, can anyone deepfake this for me? Or Nudify is another version of deep faking.

So there's apps online where you can upload one image of someone and then it will, using AI technology, artificial intelligence, remove your clothes and make a nude image of you. And it only works on female bodies, of course, because it's women that are being targeted by this. So I just became like, okay, I don't think like many people know that this is happening. So I approached the BBC about this. I was like, look, I'd love to look into this more.

And they were a bit like, is it a thing? Like, is it just something that celebrities are being targeted with? And I was like, no, like this is the thing. So, you know, they commissioned it. And then as soon as we started looking into it, we just saw like the huge scale of how many

women were being targeted by this and it was just like god it's so terrifying that this technology has been used to humiliate women to degrade women to blackmail women or just to fulfill like a sexual fantasy of someone um without consent right because these women who are being deep faked so basically your face is being put into a porn video or a porn image without your consent. I mean, the person whose face that is being put in there hasn't consented, but also the porn actresses haven't consented to have their content changed like that as well. So there's like two victims here. So yeah, in the documentary, I spoke to three victims who have been deepfaked into porn.

And, you know, they were all really affected. And I think that's what shocked me because this documentary, different to my other one, like, it wasn't about me. Like, I mean, I don't know. I try not to look, but I hadn't been a victim of deepfake porn. So I was investigating it. So I guess I didn't set myself up for how emotional it would be for me and how much effect it would have because I was like, oh, I'm just interviewing these women.

But like all of them broke down, you know, were upset. They were crying us and how it's changed their life, like how it's affected their work, how they think about when they go outside. And I thought, God, like this is something that is really traumatic to happen to you. And you have no control over it. Because with deepfakes back in the day, the technology was so advanced and really difficult. So you'd have to be like a bit of a tech whiz to know how to make a deepfake video. Whereas now we can have one image of someone and just use an app that we've all got access to on Apple iPhones, Google Play,

and create quite a realistic deepfake of someone that you can then upload anywhere you want, share with who you want without their consent. And then as you know about the internet, like that exists online forever. So yeah, it's a really terrifying technology. It's weird. So like you interview,

oh, it was an AI of somebody who creates deepfake pornography for people. And, you interview, it was an AI of somebody who creates deepfake pornography for people. And you know, I said off camera, it's one of the reasons why I'm single, because sometimes men terrify me. He was saying, if my wife found out, we'd be finished. And I was like, so then, you know, he was, he also said that if it was became illegal, he'd stop. And it's like, but then does your moral, like your moral say that what you're doing is wrong there's a reason why a fantasy is a fantasy is it because it's in your head

there are women out there who consent to being actresses and adult content and they've consented and been paid for that so why is that not enough why all of a sudden do you have to go out there

and do that to somebody who hasn't consented to that yeah I think that's something that really shocked me. And I don't know why I get shocked because every time I'm in these wills and I hear more about men online and, you know, I'm like, oh my God, I don't know what shocks me anymore. But it was just the kind of blasé-ness, I think, of so many of these people. And like, that is one of the guys, so he's the owner and founder

of like the most popular deepfake porn website online. And we spoke to him. And it's almost like he'd never thought before of the effect it could have on women and that it's non-consensual. He's like, but they're not real. So like, but they look real. I don't know what the issue is. I'm like, but you're putting someone's name to it. And you're saying that this is them in a video. Yeah, you're saying it's deepfake, but it looks real. So if I'm looking at myself in a graphic porn video, that's really traumatic. And also you don't know someone's history, what's happened to them. So why do you think it's okay to put that out there for everyone else to see? And I think there's a difference between a fantasy you've got in your head and then putting it into a video that exists online forever. And that's where, you know,

I think the huge issue is because a lot of these guys like, it's just a fantasy. It's not real. Like, women should just get over it. Like, I don't know what the issue is. And I'm like, well, if it's a fantasy, just keep it in your head. Like, you don't need to act it out and then target women. And unfortunately, like, a lot of women were being targeted. I've seen on these forums, people were posting pictures of girls and saying, can someone make a deepfake of them? Oh, and this is their Instagram account. So let's all go dox them and show them this deepfake and basically torment them about these images. So, you know, there was malice behind it.

These guys wanted that gratification of knowing that these girls have no control over their images. And yeah, I think, unfortunately, that is something that has had an effect on my day in life. Because I think, God, like, obviously, hashtag not all men. I know that there's a lot of men in my life that I love, but like,

it's really scary for me to put myself out there knowing that, you know, these forums have millions of members. You know, the deepfake one

gets 13 million hits a month. They're not just strange men in their basement. Like, these are men that sit at a dinner table with their daughters and wives that they're requesting deepfakes for. These are men that you work with who are trading your nudes. Like, these are men that sit at a dinner table with their daughters and wives that they're requesting deep fakes for these are men that you work with who are trading your nudes like these

are normal men who are engaging in this non-consensual acts online and image-based sexual abuse so I think for me unfortunately now I just think like god like the odds are against me when I meet these guys because how many men have been in whatsapp groups and they've had you know whether it's only fans content whether it's OnlyFans content, whether it's revenge porn content that they really don't have any consent to share, you know, and received that and just laughed it off. Like most guys I would imagine

have received that kind of content. So for me, I think, God, like how do I put myself out there knowing that this exists online? Yeah, it's a really tricky one. It's because one of the people you interviewed was a female politician in the's because one of the people you interviewed was um a female politician in the US and during the documentary you said as well that somebody had

made deep fakes of Priti Patel like regardless of what you think about her and her politics it's like it's you can tell it's made of malice and misogyny regardless of whether you think it is or isn't as a joke, because you would never do that to a male politician to undermine them. And I think the lady that you interviewed in the US was worried that it was colleagues or people that were her opposition trying to get her out of a job.

Yeah, she was amazing. Lauren Book, so she's a US senator. And she had been targeted. She'd had her phone hacked. And some content was real. And then also deepfake content had been made of her. And, you know, she is a really passionate advocate for children and women.

And she was like, why am I being targeted like this? Like, why is it me? Is it my colleagues? And I think what was like really amazing for me, like it wasn't included in the doc, but afterwards, you know, I had a little bit of a cry with her. I was like to me you're so amazing because my I guess past as a gun model and people's shame and stigma that they attach is something that I carry around so much

and I always think when I meet people oh my god like if they google me and they see that I used to get my boobs out like what are they going to think and they're not going to think I'm worthy of doing anything they're not going to take me seriously and to think of her having that content out there putting it you know blackmailing her with it someone did putting it on all these websites knowing that every male politician that she works with has seen that content and then she stands up in a US senate and kind of sticks a middle finger up to them and actually has now made it illegal in Florida to distribute images like that including deepfakes I just think wow you are a badass i literally loved her she's so amazing but it is again it's not men that are being targeted by this kind of content online you know and

and male politicians you know there's there's i didn't come across any deep fakes of boris johnson put it that way no yeah but i it was really bad because I actually, after watching your documentary, went to go and look myself. And it's horrible to know because I was sat there and thought, it's only a matter of time before it happens to me. Because I'm aware that there are Reddit forums dedicated to me with comments of quite violent sexual nature. And I don't know if that's my neighbour. I don't think it is, but I don't know if that's my neighbor. I don't think it is, but I don't know if that's my neighbor.

I don't know if that's someone I went to school with or if somebody that doesn't even live anywhere near me. So when I go out on the street, I'm like, oh my God, like any of these people could have written that they want to see me gangbang, they want to see me raped or that they would do it themselves.

And, you know, it terrifies me. And so like, no, after watching that, I mean, I was always aware. I was like, yeah, it could be me, especially so like no after watching that I mean I was always aware I was like yeah it could be me especially if I continue down the route I am talking about violence against women going into politics and then because the technology is so good people aren't going to know whether it's real or not yeah I think that's the thing isn't it because like me you know you you do speak up a lot about women and violence against women.

And unfortunately, the more we speak up, the more we're targeted because men are like, they want to silence us. And deepfake pornography, unfortunately, is another way of being silenced. And in the documentary, I spoke with Kate Isaacs,

who is the founder of Not Your Porn, which is an amazing, amazing project, which helps women get their content, if that's revenge porn or deepfakes, removed and online and gives them support for that. And she was targeted because of the work she does. And it is that thing plenty of times I thought, oh my God, like, do I actually want to be doing this? Because it does feel really traumatic thinking that men are coming after you online and doctoring you and saying about all this stuff they want to do to you. And with the

deep fake doc, you know, the BBC said to me, they're like, you need to be prepared that you're probably going to get deepfaked because of this. And I was weighing it up like, yeah, I probably am. But then do I want to do this? But if I don't do it, how are these women going to be helped? How are we going to help change the law? How are we going to put it in front of the government? How are we going to start these conversations? So if it's not me, then who's it going to be? And I think it's always the case, unfortunately, it's the victims or the women who have to speak out about this to actually be heard and it is amazing people like Lauren and Kate who kind of put themselves out there and expose their trauma to try and make a change yeah the thing is it's one of those things

as well that it doesn't matter how much or how little clothing you're wearing on your social media that we are victim to these kinds of messages. I received a message two days ago. I was in a full length dress and gloves and someone sent me a message saying, because of you, I've already failed. No Nut November, you little slut and all these words. And I was like, I'm fully dressed. So, you know, I don't even want to know what images of me in my bikini are gonna... Hi, I'm Richard Karn. And you may have seen me on tv talking about the world's number one expandable garden hose well the brand new pocket hose copperhead with pocket pivot is here and it's a total game changer old-fashioned hoses get kinks and creases at the spigot but the copperheads pocket pivot swivels 360 degrees for

full water flow and freedom to water with ease all around your home. When you're all done, this rust-proof anti-burst hose shrinks back down to pocket size for effortless handling and tidy storage. Plus, your super light and ultra durable pocket hose Copperhead is backed with a 10-year warranty. What could be better than that? I'll tell you what, an exciting exclusive offer just for you. For a limited time, you can get a free pocket pivot and their 10 pattern sprayer with the purchase of any size copperhead hose just text water to 64 000 that's water to 64 000 for your two free gifts with purchase w-a-t-e-r to 64 000 by texting 64 000 you agree to receive recurring automated marketing messages from pocket hose message and data rates

may apply no purchase required terms apply available at pocket hose.com slash terms get in return. Yeah. And with that, I'm sure you get people that will be like, oh, what do they expect? Like, oh, they're silly.

Do they think that's going to work? And I'm like, of course I don't think it's going to work. It's like the power and control that they have over you by telling you that. It's like with cyber flashing, right?

You've spoken about that as well. And I always would get that from people. Oh God, what do they think that's going to work? No, of course I don't think that's going to work. They're not stupid. But it's, again,

it's in their power knowing I can do this to you and force you to see this and you can't do anything about it. And again, like sending you messages like that, it's not because he thinks you're going to reply and be like, oh my God, yes, stunning babe.

Thanks so much. Like, let's, you know, it's because he's asserting his power and saying, I can tell you this and I can make you feel like this and you can't do anything about it. Yeah, exactly. And it's because that he's asserting his power and saying i can tell you this and i can make you feel like this and you can't do anything about it yeah exactly and it's like that's the powers what they get off on most of the time so like regardless it's a blank profile they're hiding behind that amenity of themselves and you know again it's the worry of like am i going to see this person in the street and not know about it yeah that's the terrifying thing isn't it and like you said

about you know the reddit forums i've seen loads before and it is so grim you're thinking who are these people I mean I had before on a forum people commenting saying oh I slept with her you know back back home and all this I was like no you didn't like it was a fake story that has never even happened so I was like how weird like who is this person from my hometown that's made up this whole story about me posting it online and then I could go back to visit my parents. I'm walking around in my small town and it's you, you know? And I think a lot of times people think that women are overreacting, right? And I'm like, but do you know what it's like to not know who these hundreds of thousands of people commenting on your body and what they want to do to you, who they are? It's like, you're constantly looking behind your

shoulder. And I think a lot of people think just because that exists online it's not a real threat in real life but the people who are posted online are real people yeah they're not made up people like they're real people and then they log off and then they exist in society so it's like they are a threat if you're saying stuff about online it should be taken seriously in real life and I think that is something that we still struggle a lot with in society we see it as a joke oh it's only banter it's like but who are these men who think their attitude and behavior towards women are okay because if they think that's okay online then what are they doing in real life well how did all of this stuff like around your imagery affect your parents because you spoke about your parents just then, like, did it have a mental impact on them as well?

Yeah, I mean, bless my dad was in my first documentary, but you see, I managed to persuade him to sit down with me. And, you know, I'm really close to my parents and they've always been really supportive. And I think they have always felt really protective of me. And I think, again, like they were a bit naive, like when we're going into it, we didn't really know what it was.

And as social media grew, I think like my mum said, bless her, she'll cry. And she's like, I wish like I could take that away. And you always worry like, maybe we shouldn't let you do that. But, you know,

you can't protect your children all the time like that. And I think just being there to support you when it does go wrong. But it isn't a nice thing to think about, I think. And my mum, sometimes she used to comment, like reply to guys,

being like, oh, shut up, I'm online. I'm like, mum, just don't reply to them. It's fine. Like, I'll just block them. You don't have to like have a fight with them online. But I think again, it's like people don't think that these women that you're targeting online are real women, they're daughters,

they're sisters, they're mothers, you know. And you do have people that are affected. It's not just that one person. It's everyone's life and their friends that have to see that. Or if you're going out walking home and then you're with your friends

going, actually, I don't feel comfortable doing this because I'm worried about this because this has happened to me online. Like there is very real consequences in people's real lives for what, unfortunately,

the attitudes and behaviors towards people online are. I love supportive parents. My dad's retired now, so he trolls, trolls. And he'll be like, oh, did you know someone said this? But I've said this back.

And I'm like like maybe you should find a new hobby in your retirement oh my god yeah my mum will say oh my god did you see that

so and so actually my mum didn't no I've been avoiding it so thank you thanks for that but no we have to love them anyway

so I ask people the similar final question but I think I'm going to word it slightly differently for you so what would you say to people in your past and then those in the future

that have tarnished you with the brush for being a glamour model and that doubt your capability of being anything else apart from your body? Oh gosh, I think I would just say that we are more than one thing. You know, we don't have to be boxed in. You don't have to just fit into one box. You can pivot and you can change. And that's an amazing part of life. And I think growing is something that we all do. And I think we should just allow

people the space to do that. And you've done things that you might regret, or you've done things that you thought, okay, maybe I wouldn't do that now. But you've done things that you thought okay maybe I wouldn't do that now but you've learned from that and people should be allowed the space to learn from that and to grow amazing well thank you so much for being guests on my podcast I've really enjoyed listening to you and your stories and yeah I'm sorry that you've had to like deal with it but I really commend you for like stepping up um not just for yourself but for other women as well thank you thanks for having me I love everything you do online so I'm like oh my god fangirling for like stepping up, not just for yourself, but for other women as well. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I love everything you do online.

So I'm like, oh my God, fangirling. I feel like we fangirl each other on social media really. But no, thank you. Hi, I'm Richard Karn. And you may have seen me on TV talking about the world's number one expandable garden hose. Well, the brand new Pocket Hose Copperhead with Pocket Pivot is here

and it's a total game changer. Old-fashioned hoses get kinks and creases at the spigot, but the Copperhead with Pocket Pivot is here, and it's a total game changer. Old-fashioned hoses get kinks and creases at the spigot, but the Copperhead's Pocket Pivot swivels 360 degrees for full water flow and freedom to water with ease all around your home. When you're all done, this rust-proof anti-burst hose shrinks back down to pocket size for effortless handling and tidy storage. Plus, your super light and ultra-durable Pocket H hose copperhead is backed with a 10-year warranty. What could be better than that? I'll tell you what, an exciting exclusive offer just for you. For a limited time, you can get a free pocket pivot

and their 10-pattern sprayer with the purchase of any size copperhead hose. Just text WATER to 64000. That's WATER to 64000 for your two free gifts with purchase. W-A-T-E-R to 64,000.