Girls Know Nothing - S2 Ep14: Path - Community Safety, Controversy & The Future In Safety For Women

Episode Date: May 10, 2023

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Domestic data roaming at 2G speeds. Price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate additional terms and conditions apply and um people that have me on instagram will have seen that i've used it but i think not a lot of people or if anybody knows about the story or the creation of as to how the app came into existence in the first place so you know what inspired you to want to create Path? So it was a sort of combination of a few things it was during lockdown and it was after the Sarah Everard tragedy and I had to talking earlier that I live in Wandsworth and I was seeing someone at the time who lived just off the street she was taken so that route that she walked is one I used to walk all the time and it struck me

afterwards I'd never, ever felt unsafe. And I come from a point of extreme privilege in terms of being a, you know, middle-class straight white male. I'm seldom the target of these kind of things. So I got curious and I got concerned for my partner at the time. I thought I'd see what was available in a tech space from a safety perspective. I thought, you know, surely in today's modern era, there must be some really good solutions. And I looked and what I found was a bunch of really well-intentioned, but really generally poorly thought out things.

You know, either it's, you know, if you're in trouble, shake your phone five times. If you're in trouble, press this button. You're in trouble, set off this alarm. If you're in trouble, pay 99p per month and we might send someone to your help problem is if you're in trouble you're going to run you're going to fight or you're not going to have either of those options right the you know we're not going to people aren't built to open their phones up and start pressing buttons um so i started asking a few of my friends who are in this space of campaigners in this space,

I think you know a couple of them, what their issues were in the sector. And the thing that really struck me, actually more than necessarily, and you've got to stop me because I'll go on and on and on. The thing that really struck me that I hadn't realized, particularly as a man, wasn't necessarily the fear of walking home at night, but it was the fear of going for a run at six in the morning. It was the fear of like going to get milk after dark. It was the fear of the loss of these small freedoms that we all take for granted and the fact that 50 plus of the population actually don't feel

comfortable doing and i thought that's the thing that we need to solve immediately you know the whole point of path is empowerment it's about freedom it's about just giving you the comfort to go and do these little things it's not just about going home yeah I think um you know a lot of the things you listed off there were things that I very much fear as part of my everyday life like if I want to pop to the local shop to get some milk and it's dark I'll drive there'll be no way I'm walking but it's a five minute walk around the corner and I think it's you know I just see that as norm now whereas obviously like you said you don't that's not something you've necessarily thought of but i know that you have worked with like you said people that in this industry but also victims of sexual violence to be able to create path i mean apart

from the massive disparities in normal everyday life that you found out what was the biggest thing that you learned from these people um i think there's again it's going back to some of the stuff that's already on the market right i think a lot of people have quite good intentions about safety but they get in without thinking of the consequences how it can be misused and a lot of times these safety platforms are actually abused by the people they're designed to protect against um so from the very start when we were talking to these people, whenever we came up with a new feature for Path, it sounds horrible, but the first thought we have

is how can this be misused? How could this be broken? How could this be abused? Because we're never going to put something into the platform that can be misused. So that's why, for example, as you know, you can link people to your journeys if you want to and let them know automatically lets them know when you arrive right so you don't have to

do anything it's the automatic version text when you go home but you can never permanently link people because the number of cases of people abusing permanent link platforms and i'm not going to say them out loud in case i get in trouble but we all know them right um by abusive partners by stalkers is heartbreaking and there are so many stories even like physical tech this is why we haven't gone into physical tech all these kind of things that can be used to track as being used as tools for abuse it's horrendous and actually it's a shame that well-intentioned tech that's being built is being misused by this way. But equally, as people who are developing this software or this hardware, it's on us to not put anything out into the world that can be used to make the situation worse.

And that's the challenge, right? Yeah. So, I mean, this was something I wanted to touch on a little bit later, but it feels like it's a good time to kind of slot it in now and i guess this is the you know exactly what i'm going to start talking about um is that obviously um in the violence against women and girls space there are a lot of well-intentioned designed tools and features technologically and physical to help prevent certain things and obviously i've done a lot of campaigning in the drink spiking atmosphere and I'm very against the idea of stop tops because I don't think it stops the problem I think it just puts it around and people find different ways of going about it um the app in its original days did come under a lot of fire from um a lot of

female rights activists you know I think I saw the CEO of rape crisis and reclaim the streets in particular speak out about it um i guess my question to you would be like what would you actually say to these people that were kind of against the purpose of what the app's designed for i think rightly so when we first launched a lot of the criticism was based on or came about because of the fear that this was just another link your location let you know when you get home so firstly and i think we can all agree it's absurd that anyone should have to do this right um and secondly quite right that they should be concerned that we don't need another platform that's linking your permanent

location because the the record of abuse is is pretty extensive um so what we tried to do was look at all the concerns talk to the people who are concerned actually reassure them that the app has been designed specifically to protect against those flaws that are found in other platforms and then since then we've tried to just build on that point find areas where we can add value right and i and the other point was and i think this is a big bit of frustration, that there was a belief that we were sort of billing ourselves as the solution. We're not the solution. The solution is for men to stop attacking women

and other vulnerable minorities, right? But we are part of a network of things that could help make the situation slightly better uh and you know i think um that was a lot of the concern and we've tried as much as we can to work with these groups get their advice get their input um you know poll some of their membership to find out what features work what they would like to see what they don't like to see what issues they have with the app you know every time we we do big upgrades we do a massive poll across a huge diverse platform of people um to see if there's anything in there that they find uncomfortable that they don't like um i think hopefully going

forward that that approach of working hand in hand with them has dealt with some of those concerns. Because I think it is, as I said, you know, people have this, you know, the reaction of, and I completely get it, not another app. You know, we don't need another app doing the same stuff that they're all doing. But I think now we've shown that we're not just here to chuck something at the wall and then do a load of advertising and say aren't we great you know we've spent every single month since we've launched we've continually updated and developed i mean part of the reason you haven't seen much advertising from us is because every single penny we have gotten in for the platform we have pretty much put into

development which has gone into the place it is now which i'm very proud of but it's um it's a hard one because you're doing you're taking on people's safety you have to do that with a level of respect for the challenge and the trust that people are then placing in you and I think a lot of people are maybe a bit cavalier about that or they look at it through their own lens what makes them feel safe but may not necessarily be applicable to everyone else apart from the fear fear of tracking, what is the biggest piece of feedback that you have had from these groups and their members? The tracking's a big part of it. We had some feedback on some of the terminology, Guardian, which is something we're still looking into,

which we know is a bit triggering to certain audiences. I think also we had a lot of feedback at the time about some of the government support we had I think there's a bit of frustration about the home office backing I think some of that again I want to be careful to say that you know it wasn't founded but some of it was based on the assumption that the home office funded it and actually the entire platform has been completely self-funded we've not taken any funds or resources away from any other project in the space and we've been very particular about that since the beginning um we've worked with the home office only in that they've given us some nice support in the press in terms of vocalizing that they think it's a good idea um and we work with them currently in that we talk

to them and ask them what they would need what would be helpful from our platform to help them more effectively tackle safety infrastructure and issues within within the uk and that's what we're building out so we try and look at how can we make the job of local government of local police easier so they can allocate their resources more effectively and do more with the money they have to tackle the issue of safety for all communities so obviously when you talked about home office backing and obviously there are so many apps out there you never know which one to download which one suits your needs the best what actually separates path from any of the other options on the market i think um we try and offer a little

bit of everything to everyone which i get in trouble for from everyone who works in tech and they're like you should be single-minded i'm like well the thing with safety is it's not just about navigation it's you know we've got the check-in feature which is designed to try and keep people safer when they're out dating right or if they're out and about we've got safe havens physical safe locations where you can go if you're in trouble i think the thing that we do that no one else does that i'm aware of and live in fear one of these days i find out someone does it and i haven't spotted it is um we actually quantify the safety of any route you're looking to take right so you think about the way you if you were to walk from from yours to that shop your local shop like you said earlier to get to get some milk or whatever it may be you would think of probably a really quick way to get there but you

might avoid a couple of areas right and naturally this is how since we learn to navigate we go about the world right we we think of the fastest way to get somewhere safely but digital navigation up until now has only ever given us speed. It shows us the most direct route. And in the UK, it's okay because you know some areas you might avoid, but if you're on holiday or wherever it may be, you can get in real trouble that way, right? Path is about closing that circle. So we're about showing you not just the fastest or the speed of a journey,

but also the safety of it. And not because we want to tell you which way to go. I think people have had enough of other people telling them what to do and where to go it's just about giving you choice the whole thing as i said with path is about giving people the comfort to do the things they want to do and choice is a big part of that right so the moment you know if you've got a route that's five minutes 10 minutes 15 minutes long that 10 15 minutes may as well not exist because what madman is going to take by five minutes sacrifice their journey but if i tell you the 10 minute route is substantially safer than

the five minute one you might sacrifice those five minutes and this is all this is all path is about it's just giving you choice and an informed choice and then when you do you report stuff as you come across it that helps those scores get updated helps make the community safer and helps us then tell the council or the police where you feel the need for investment or the need for increased presence is greatest so they can make more informed decisions have you had any feedback from local councils or police forces that have used path data so the platform the back-end platform is still in testing because we want to make sure we've got enough data to allow them to make you know the proper choices instead of just giving them you know a bit here and a bit there i want it actually to be an effective tool not just

something we try and chuck along to say we've done it but every single member of the council the government the police that we've talked to, have said that this would be incredibly useful. I mean, in fact, we even started building it in the first place around input from the Met Police based on what they would need to make their job more effective or more helpful. I don't know if you've seen the download journey history option that you have if you're linked to someone. But that's built around the idea that if someone goes missing, we can basically do the job of location tracking within 10 seconds that might otherwise take two days. And little things like that, small solutions that help people, that's been our approach since the beginning how can we make their job a little bit easier so they can get to people faster or they can solve the safety infrastructure issues in the city quicker

obviously apart from the actual app itself there's a lot that goes into making an app um i'm sure you know what was the biggest challenge when it comes to creating an app like path i mean besides my absolute inability to do anything with tech um which was a hurdle to overcome my old boss called me the tech antichrist um i know right um i think the biggest hurdle with path was deciding it was good enough so i'm a bit of a perfectionist which i suspect you are as well right and um not wanting to put anything out until you you're really comfortable and that's the hardest thing especially if you're on your own business you're like because it's never good enough you almost need someone to bully you into doing it because you're like it's it's okay

when you take safety into your own hands or other people's safety that's like multiplied by a hundred because actually you don't want to put anything out there that could put people in a bad situation in a dangerous situation so I think the hardest part of this whole thing is actually been accepting that we're at a point where we feel comfortable that it's good enough and more and more that is now coming along every time we do another update we see users enjoy it more use it more we can see them sharing it with other people you know so we know that there is demand for us we did some polling recently and found out that um 34 percent

of people in the uk would switch to another navigation app if it showed them the safety of their route so we know it's something that people want it's just about giving them the quality of an experience that they deserve and i think we're very you know we i think we're there but also i think progressively we get closer and closer to the needs of those users who aren't quite there yet yeah i was trying to think of um the next question without trying to turn into a therapy session on your perfectionism but i think you know obviously you must enjoy what you do what is the highlight of running running the app um this is gonna sound

so unbelievably cheesy um but it's a true story it sounds really fake but it's a true story and it is probably the highlight of my app so far uh so i was at a um like a conference like a new business conference um in january and i'd just been to see um a presentation and i was sat chatting to someone at the back next to the bar that they'd set up and there was a bloke charlie lovely guy he was behind the bar and he heard me over talking about path and he said are you the founder of Path? I said, yes. I said, I just want to say thank you.

My sisters use it all the time and they love it. And it just, you know, and they always forget to text me when they get home. It just does it automatically. And I know how set up that sounds, but it actually happened

and it honestly made my year. I was like, this is a thing that's actually helping people and giving them some comfort. So I think the highlight for me with the platform like any big tech milestone is great and any you know any challenge that we set and overcome like i'm sort of figuring out solutions to past problems like my version of sudoku but like those things actually seeing that it helps that's the big thing for me i'm aware of how cheesy it sounds but that is generally like why we're trying to do this and why my tech team and everyone who gets involved

is so dedicated to it because they're building it not for me and not necessarily for anyone who's going to use it but they're building it for their family and their friends like everyone is very invested in this it's a lot of pressure to take on though, knowing that you're having that close impact on somebody else's life. Yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, depending on the day, sometimes you just, you sort of have to take a slight go and for a cup of tea and think, fuck, this is, you know, could have picked a less ambitious thing to do.

I mean, it started, it wasn't meant to be what it is, right? It started off as actually a less ambitious thing to do i mean it started it wasn't meant to be what it is right it started off as actually a less ambitious thing as like a small side project i had as a solution to some of the problems i saw in like safety tech and then i realized actually the only solution is something that tangibly helps you know it's hard to describe but the only solution is something that does what a lot of these small things are trying to do in some part but effectively whilst tackling their problems you can't just create one thing for one subset of people who might feel more comfortable um you've got to achieve scale because also any safety infrastructure anything that's going to have any kind of dissuasive effect has to have scale so you've got to do something that also helps improve people's lives right so

that's why the navigation of paths are important all i did that it's as effective a navigation platform as your google maps as your apple maps but also shows you safety and then also we took it one step further and recently launched path points. See for every mile you travel in the app, it doesn't matter what method of transport and for every single thing you report and for every report you validate. So every thing you agree with, you know, you think that lighting issue is there,

that lighting issue over there is an issue. You agree with that, you get points and those points can be redeemed for anything from discounts in your weekly shop to money off. I'm not sure what the rules are on mentioning brands on this one, but huge high street brands. Right. And like big discounts on those. And very shortly pending a negotiation that we're hoping to finalize very soon, you'll be able to swap them for air miles. So you actually earn air miles

for keeping your community safe. And that's the thing, right? We're trying to reward people because you shouldn't have to, by the way. You shouldn't have to. But equally, if people are getting rewarded for the most innocuous random stuff, why shouldn't they get rewarded

for looking out for one another? Why shouldn't we reward the good behavior rather than just the financial behavior? Yeah, I think for me, I think i'm a massive skeptic so of course you know obviously path is heavily reliant on its users being honest truthful and interactive with that side of the app i'm not gonna lie truth be told i'm not as interactive that side of the app as as the rest of it so i'm probably one of those users that's like needs that incentivization but there there can be an issue with that surely well that's why you only get the points on the reports once it's been validated by three people completely unconnected to you okay and actually we're refining that even further but i'm not going to say exactly how to

avoid um to avoid bias and abuse right so you can't just go out sit on your sofa and report 101 things to get a load of points none of it will earn you anything until people who've never met you agree that yeah that is an issue and they have to be walking down that route to get that notification they have to be physically in the place that you've reported as a problem to actually agree with you okay so I am a massive skeptic as well right I would game the system if i could if i was outside of this i was thinking that's going to pay for my trip to thailand exactly but equally just traveling safely your morning commute every day that's earning you

air miles or earning you rewards discounts whatever it may be so the whole idea is again incentivizing people just to make a safe choice and again you shouldn't have to but it's not that we're saying you have to incentivize people we're just saying that they should be rewarded for you know doing this behavior they should be rewarded for looking out for each other because why not what drove you to make the app as ambitious as it is she said it started off as a bit of a side project i mean it started the initial phase and again i reckon you'll understand this, was my perfectionism. It was the idea of just adding one extra thing

that would make it rounded out. Like, this is perfect, we just need one extra little bit that's missing, or like one niche use case of one person may want this and this. And then actually, about a year after doing this and going progressively grayer, I realized that the scope of what we were trying to do had changed massively and that's when we really ramped it up and brought on a really

experienced leadership team from all over the world um and started building what we're trying to build now uh well which we have built now which is something that is you know there to be used with any of the top navigation platforms in the world what would you say to anyone that's listening that's really skeptical of path i would say i completely get it because again why do we need another app and prior to this i was you know having looked at all the apps out there i was like well i would understand why you'd be skeptic because most of these are crap you know even life 360 right the top safety app in the us recently discovered that is being misused by as horrendous sex traffickers and again that's the permanent linking system right but i would say if you are a skeptic use it and see if we have answered some of your skepticism right some of

your issues with the other platforms because that's what we've tried to do and if we haven't tell us you can actually there's a link on the um on our website you can just email us directly and any issues you have or things you don't think we're doing or actual thoughts you have on how the app could be improved just email us through because we love to hear it because at the end of the day all we're trying to build is the best platform for people to give them comfort this is a bit of um a tough question probably for you to answer but um some of the apps that are out there are designed by groups of people that are probably more likely to be targeted of violent crime or well any sort of abuse in the street whereas you've admitted earlier that you have acknowledged that you are privileged as a heterosexual white male um with an aggressively like wolf looking rescue dog as well very cute

rescue dog but yeah so it's um like why would it's like why would people put their trust in you when you don't necessarily live the experience that some of the other app creators have lived it's an entirely fair question i think it's not necessarily just putting your trust in me it's putting your trust in the 20 30 people who have been involved in this since the beginning who have lived the consequences of this world in a pretty horrific way and have committed most of their past two years to trying to make path as successful as it can be and I think they're they're the reason it is where it is and it is the app it is not me you know because these are not experiences I can have firsthand by and large it's it's me going to them and finding out what their issues are with the

current platforms what would be helpful what could actually make a bit of a difference what would be needed that's what path is built on their insight their experience um and i'm not necessarily going to name specific names i think we've discussed some of them before uh but they've gone through stuff and some of it's in the public domain so it's not for me to tell their stories but it's them that have built path I'm basically just jazz hands at this point probably not the best metaphor to use but and it's the commitment from from again the new leadership team you know people who are heads of some of the largest tech companies,

particularly in navigation in the world, who are giving it their time pretty much at no cost because, again, Path's all self-funded, to try and solve this issue. That's what you're putting your trust in, not some random bloke from Wandsworth. I feel like I'm grilling you like people grill politicians it's a bit unfair if i'm trying to be as nice as nice as possible do you know what

because i'd much rather you do grill me and ask me these questions because people are thinking them anyway right yeah and it's better and again if we're doing safety and taking people's safety into our own hands i should be able to ask some tough questions otherwise what the hell am i doing right if i'm not able to answer these questions and i don't deserve to be like dealing with people's safety i guess as well i think that i feel like as a user of path i am probably initially the target audience you've set up the app for um you know i've very much lived in that area that Sarah Everard was unfortunately taken. So that really hit home for me as well. And I walk home late at night and things like that.

So I think that's where my questions to you have come from my own personal skepticism of men potentially be seen to make things or profiteer off other male violence or actions it's not saying i'm not saying that what you're doing is wrong but it's obviously just a personal skepticism i guess for me is that what would you say to people that are still skeptical of navigation safety apps and platforms that you've built like path i think the simplest thing is if you're skeptical use it.

I think just give it a go, see if it actually improves your life and brings you comfort, because that's what we're building it for, right? If it doesn't, then I think stay to what you know. And as I said, it's never meant to be and never will be the solution. We're not saying this is the answer to ending male violence the answer to ending male violence is and we all know this right it's educational reform of social reform and it's frankly just men not attacking people it's um madness that it's even a thing but uh just give it a go and see what you think see if you like it i think this is this is

and if you are skeptical as i said and you don't like it if there are issues tell us what they are so we can fix it and change it you know this is something that is growing and changing every month every week we're pivoting and finding out new things adjusting for different users finding out the best balance of things because also of course we can never please everyone right so that's one of actually the tough things is making informed choices on what makes the most people feel comfortable again without ever putting anyone at risk without ever exposing or putting out a feature that could be misused um and there's you know for every feature that's in path there's 10 we came up with that you know in a perfect world would be great for safety but equally in a perfect world you wouldn't need it but unfortunately we live in the world we live in and they could too easily be abused um so i suppose for the skeptics

give it a go and see if it answers your skepticism if it doesn't let us know why and we will try and fix it obviously without delving into too much detail into things that you um probably won't be able to share yet but what is next for the app uh there's some stuff i can't share um that's annoying because i'm really excited about it like when does this episode comes out in like three three weeks will it be out then no it's like it's wildly tried to get an exclusive one of the things with no this you can get an exclusive one of the things we're doing at the moment is, I hate to say AI because everyone says AI these days,

but we've been building something that essentially, if something happens along your route while you're on it, like Waze would map you around traffic, we will map you around that safety hazard. If there is a natural crime incident, something that could be a threat to you, this won't be out out in three weeks path will proactively route you around it without you even

knowing right so like it's like the ways for safety that's one of the things we're working towards and should have ready quite soon um it's unbelievably complicated apparently again i can't code i don't know i've been reliably informed um you're just the face for questioning i'm the one who calls up and gives my developers like a borderline stroke every time i had an idea then i'd know another one um but i suppose there's that i think uh we're updating some of the the look and feel of it to make it a bit more glossy a bit more sort of apple level but i'm just excited to see people use it right we did a massive update the other day i use it for all my journeys now and it's just easy and racking up my points i'm

using the discounts loving it i'm not ashamed to admit well fair enough i mean to be fair i'm always really skeptical of people that don't even use their own products but you know like you say people that are out there that are unsure or skeptical i think it's always it's always better to try something before you can pass judgment but i think what you are doing and the premise of the app is really important and you know i'm really grateful there are people out there that are you know it's not necessarily a solution but trying to find ways to protect young women and girls and well anybody in the street but um thank you for having my really awkward questioning i know i was trying to be really diplomatic about how i ask certain questions very harsh but put the boot in i mean come on let's let's like again i'd rather have a tough

question and be able to answer it and for people who are listening yeah to then be a little less skeptical than for people to think to come away with still have questions still with questions in their mind and think oh well you know it still doesn't do that thing yeah i think that and that's the thing that's the responsibility we have right if you're going to get into the game of trying to keep people safe you have to be able to answer any question people have regarding that right because at the end of the day it's their life they're putting in your hands right even in the smallest thing even if it's a five minute journey from your home to the local shop that you're using path for we're you know it's we have taken on the responsibility for that

um and that is something we take incredibly seriously and proactively trying to improve every day. I think that's amazing and hopefully people that listen to the podcast will give it a try and I'm sure you'll get some feedback from people that listen because I get a lot of feedback all the time

but no thank you so much for giving up your time I know you're very busy and I'm really grateful for the platform and for what you're doing. No, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Split it into a two episode piece and come back and we'll see if Sharon remembers.

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