Girls Know Nothing - S2 Ep42: Deborah Joseph | Glamour, AI & Being A Working Mother

Episode Date: December 6, 2023

GKN is a female-focused podcast hosted by  @SharonNJGaffka GKN Social Channels: Https://linktr.ee/girlsknownothing  Instagram: @girlsknownothingpod  Tiktok: @girlsknownothingpod TikTok: @girlsknownothing

Hi, I'm Richard Karn, and you may have seen me on TV talking about the world's number one expandable garden hose. Well, the brand new Pocket Hose Copperhead with Pocket Pivot is here, and it's a total game changer. Old-fashioned hoses get kinks and creases at the spigot, but the Copperhead's Pocket Pivot swivels 360 degrees for full water flow and freedom to water with ease all around your home. When you're all done, this rust-proof anti-burst hose shrinks back down to pocket size for effortless handling and tidy storage. Plus, your super light and ultra-durable pocket hose Copperhead is backed with a 10-year warranty. What could be better than that? I'll tell you what, an exciting exclusive offer just for you. For a limited time, you can get a free pocket pivot and their 10-patter pattern sprayer with the purchase of any size copperhead hose.

Just text water to 64,000. That's water to 64,000 for your two free gifts with purchase. W-A-T-E-R to 64,000. By texting 64,000, you agree to receive recurring automated marketing messages from Pocket Hose. Message and data rates may apply. No purchase required. Terms apply. Available at pockethose.com slash terms. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. Stop struggling to get your job posts seen on other job sites.

With Indeed Sponsored Jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates, so you can reach the people you want faster. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non-sponsored jobs. Don't wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with support our show by saying you heard about indeed on this podcast terms and conditions apply hiring indeed is all you need i'm that person that like clicks on a dress and ends up buying something yeah we know yes we can absolutely see that yeah yeah if you buy it from the same like if you go say onto net-a-porter I can see that genuine net-a-porter it's really nice to hear somebody talk positively about the future of AI and how

that can help you transform your business because at the moment it's really negative well I am a bit shit scared about it. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Know Nothing. Today's guest is an award-winning digital and print editor with over 20 years of experience in publishing. Debra Joseph has spent the last six years as the editor of UK Glamour and directing it through its hugely successful transition to a digital first only brand. She has recently been promoted to European Editorial Director of Glamour

and now directing digital first focus for Spanish and German glamours. Debra began her formative career working in glossy magazines, such as Cosmopolitan and editing the women's section of the Daily Mail. But now she regularly speaks on digital transformation and the challenges facing working mothers. So welcome to the studio, Debra. I can't believe it's been a whole month since Glamour Woman of the Year. I know. Is it always as glamorous and fun as it looks? So I definitely would say that we work hard and play hard at Glamour. Yeah. And we work really, really hard. We work across web, social and events. And it's a lot of hard work to make that happen

but the upside of it is these incredible highs which which is the bits you get to see which is the women of the year awards and an event we're doing on saturday called empowerment summit where we're basically doing lots of different talks about female leadership and areas like you know the importance of finance and we've got Laura Whitmore coming as a guest interviewer who I'll be interviewing so those are the real high moments but good god the months before them they're tough they're tough I was gonna say I can definitely vouch for the play hard part yeah I'm not I wasn't there I didn't see the I got to see the final product but not all the like blood sweat and tears that went into it beforehand yeah they're all

labours of love all of them you know none of us are millionaires working as journalists and um you know you don't really do it for the money you do it because you're passionate about the topic that you're writing about and working about in this case female empowerment and you know I worked with some incredible inspiring people and I love that every day it inspires me every day to do it so work hard play hard basically so I mean we briefly had like a conversation about how you got involved in glamour yeah because I was saying that I used to be like it was my die-hard thing to buy when I was younger like the print magazine and I didn't realize it was only 22 years old well it's only 22 years old

in the UK in America I think it launched in 1949 so even 39 so it's been going for a long time there but it launched in the UK and I think 2001 so how come they made the decision to like bring it over to the UK I think it was hugely successful in America it was the leading kind of women's empowerment brand it was the first magazine to be for women who work which is incredible I think that was in like 1949-59 when they launched that side of it and it got all the big celebrities on the cover and I guess in the early early noughties they thought there was there's a space for that in the UK so um I was I was hired to work on it I think

I was the second or third employee the editor was Jo Elvin at the time. He was an incredible, I'd known her for a few years. And I came on as entertainment director. So my job was to book the talent for the covers and cover film, music, TV, that kind of stuff. So yeah, that's how it started. It was amazing. But that was a stressful role to do.

It was, but I think I was 25 at the time, 24, 25 at the time. So it was a stressful role to do it was but I think I was 25 at the time 24 25 at the time so it was a dream job I mean traveled the world got to meet A-list celebrities lots of great stories you know dancing with Beyonce by the pool in Mystique you just never quite get over even to this day when I tell people it's like did you really um so yeah yeah it was an incredible thing to do in my 20s. I think I know lots of people that would give like limbs to be able to say they've done that. It was incredible. But you went away from Glamour and then came back

and now you are the editor. Yes. And Glamour's like done its transformation journey from being able to purchase in print to now being online. So what persuaded you to go through that digital transformation process? Well, I think Glam has always been innovative. Like, as I said, it was the first brand in America to be for women who work. And when it launched in the UK, it was the first magazine to be handbag

size. The idea was that it fits into your life in your handbag um so when I left magazines about 11 years ago I went to it for digital tech startups I kind of thought I was done with journalism even though at heart I'm always going to be a journalist and a storyteller I wanted to do that in different ways and I could see the world was moving to a digital world um social media was just taking off Instagram had just launched at the time and I thought I've got I've got to go into this new world this brand's too incredible to allow it to um fade you know we've got to we've got to give it an opportunity being digital only and so I went for it what were the biggest obstacles when it came to like trying to convince people that it can work being digital? I mean look people just don't like change okay

that's just life we like familiarity we like comfort Glamour has been a loved brand in the UK since 2001 and people as you said they grew up with it they've always loved it and so to tell people we're going to take that away from you it was a hard sell it was a really really hard sell I mean the decision had already been made before I started you know they'd already decided to close the magazine before I'd started so I didn't have to do that side of things thankfully when I came on it was right here you go how do you grow it how do you build it back again for the future that was really my job and at the time you know there wasn't any real direction of how to do that

there weren't many examples of how to do it so I took a very test and learn perspective of you know try something out if it doesn't work try something else out if that doesn't work try it again and normally in my experience it took two or three times to get it right um you know had to hire digitally minded on a digital only journalist so that was also interesting at the time there weren't a lot of journalists who wanted to be digital only so finding the real talent there was you know it was it was interesting but I think the biggest challenge for me was facing negativity from from other journalists from from my industry from even fashion and beauty you know so many people would

say to me oh it's over when we're not lending clothes to you we did a shoot one day and we tried to call in some handbags and the PR said but glamour's finished why would we send you some handbags right no no it's not finished it's just going digital first and it was like that for a couple of years actually and it was really tough it was it was a startup it was really really tough and you have to let your ego not be part of it because you know whenever I started any other job you know you get PR sending you flowers and saying congratulations when I started at Glamour not a word not a word from anybody it was total silence and I was like wow I've got a job to do here I've really got a job to do um you know we'd go around

and I'd pitch to say big beauty companies and I'd be in the room saying this is our digital first direction moving in and you know when you get the death stare like you know you're not winning the room um and we'd walk out and go terrible they just don't believe a word that I'm saying and then a year later you know they'd come and say to me actually we've now got to go digital as a company and we'd like to start working with you and so that was exciting you know seeing the changes within the beauty industries within the fashion industries and seeing them also go through this digital change and transformation so then lockdown happened and everything just flipped on its head. Overnight, everybody had to go digital. Every single brand had to do digital covers, had to increase their website traffic.

You know, we were all in that situation. And a lot of the journalists who'd written negative comments about Glamour at the time then came to me and said, God, weren't you the clever ones? I was like, wow. Hi, I'm Richard Karn, and you may have seen me on TV talking about the world's number one expandable garden hose. Well, the brand new Pocket Hose Copperhead with Pocket Pivot is here, and it's a total game changer. Old-fashioned hoses get kinks and creases at the spigot, but the Copperhead's Pocket Pivot swivels 360 degrees for full water flow and freedom to water with ease all around your home.

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because we changed it incrementally you know it wasn't a one big thing overnight that changed i was going to ask how you um how do you put your ego aside or be able to like take that criticism and that negativity and like still carry on with what you're doing i mean i did used to lie in bed at night and think this one hates me this one thinks I'm terrible this one thinks I'm a failure I mean I thought it because I saw it online people were commenting online saying these things and it was hard it was as women we don't like not to be liked right it's just it's a terrible thing that we're taught in society be a people pleaser and make people feel comfortable um and

obviously that's something I've always felt and experienced but I think because I'd been out of the industry for six seven years um I had two very very young children at the time I had an eight-month-old baby and a two-year-old and I think that my focus was probably a lot on them so you know in the evenings when maybe I would have worried about what people thought of me I was actually focusing on them so that definitely helped me and I think my ego left when when I got made redundant 11 years ago you know there's nothing like being made redundant and suddenly having a lot of people who worked with you and told you you were great suddenly being completely silent and not being

interested in working with you again which anyone who's been made redundant has that experience I think it taught me a big lesson not to let my ego lead so I just thought okay I'm not going to think about what other people think of me I'm just going to do what I think is right and I'm glad I did because sometimes you can be too swayed by other people's opinions and actually that's not the right thing you have to go with your gut I mean you don't really do things by halves do you like having two young children then trying to take a brand like glamour into a completely different direction actually I actually had three I only had two kids when I got made redundant okay by the time I came to glamour I actually had three so in that in that six seven

year period I had a third and you know as much as being made redundant was at the time you know it was a big blow to my ego it was embarrassing I felt ashamed I felt like a failure you know when I look back now I think it's the best thing that ever happened to me because it forced me to go digital which I never would have done and it also allowed me to have a bit more flexible working for a few years. So I worked four days instead of five and I could be around for my kids more. And, you know, that was a blessing. Thank goodness. I'm so lucky.

Sometimes I think it depends on perspective, right? Sometimes it can really force you to look at things in a different way or like, well, actually, I wasn't working because you've taken a step back. And I think we were talking about how people are institutionalized and can't sometimes remove themselves from what they've been that was me so long that was me yeah um but how I mean you spoke about how COVID kind of took glamour and people being digital journalists like to a whole different level how did you track and be able to indicate that Glamour would eventually be successful being digital? Well, I just looked at the market and saw what was going on out there.

You know, Glamour's always been a youngest 18 to 35-year-old brand. And when I looked at where 18 to 35-year-old women were, they were all online. They were on their mobile phones. They weren't, you know, the indication of the decline of print at the time showed us that 18 to 35 year olds weren't buying prints and they were all on their mobile phones so you know obviously data is is your friend in these situations and we knew that you know the potential for growth was was enormous and in the last six years we've more than doubled the unique users on the website so we've got over more than five million unique users now

and you know I'm not that surprised because the potential there is huge. I think I was one of those people that was really reluctant with change because I was so used to like having it in my hands but I'd actually realized that I probably wasn't looking at it or purchasing it as often as I am now reading online and like when I'm on the train, I'm like, oh, that's something really cool. And I even read old glamour articles from years ago because I've thought about something in my head that you wouldn't be able to do if it was all in print. Like I couldn't go and buy a glamour copy from like years ago. I mean, I mean, listen, glamour is incredible in print. I really, I loved, I loved I loved it I really really loved it I loved what it stood for I loved the way it made me feel but you know the times change and and I think we all have to

move with the times and and someone reminded me at the time that when Facebook um moved to their current news feed I think someone set up a Facebook group with a million people complaining saying send it back to how it was I mean can you imagine a time up a Facebook group with a million people complaining saying send it back to how it was I mean can you imagine a time without a Facebook news feed people just don't like change and so you have to be really really brave to go against the grain and as women in particular we're a bit scared to do that and actually sometimes you have to be afraid be not afraid of failing you know if you if you're not afraid of failing you will do anything and I think it's the fear of failure that probably stops most of us doing things that we'd like to do how has the transformation of glamour changed it's like

missions or values or has it not even changed them at all well I think it's always had female empowerment at its at its heart glamour you know it's probably been the leading female empowerment at its heart glamour you know it's probably been the leading female empowerment brand forever um I think probably personally the changes I wanted to see were certainly around diversity and inclusion when I when I was younger you know I'm I'm Middle Eastern heritage I didn't see many many women that look like me or you know with I wanted to see more diversity and you know from day one that was absolutely the heart of my mission to have a wide variety of stories to tell and I wanted different women's voices to be heard and that's something that really for me that has been my focus in the last six years. What do you think so thinking about the next six years of glamour what what excites you the most about the future of the the site i think ai it's like it's like

the wild west it's like the unknown and i'm really curious to see what the possibilities there are for us um i'd like to delve a bit more into into data especially from when it comes to our affiliates you know we're the most successful affiliates brand in our business at the moment in the UK. And I think that's because we have so much trust from our readers that when we recommend stuff to them, they buy it. So we do really, really well on affiliates. And that's purely, you know, I love the fact that I can see where my reader has clicked, what they've clicked through and what they're going to buy. So they might click on to say a tracksuit on Net-A-Porter and then go and buy you know a £5,000 handbag. I just like seeing that user journey. Someone you know once clicked

on which has happened on Net-A-Porter so I've used that as an example. Another time someone clicked on a £30 dress in Marks and Spencers and bought a couch so you know the fact that I can watch that user journey and really see what my reader's doing I love that I love seeing their lifestyles and their choices where in print I never knew who was looking at it what they felt about it what page they're engaging with whereas now I know who's on my website at what time where they're from you know where they're reading to and then what they're clicking on to buy I can see that whole user journey almost live so for me that that's power you know data is power in these situations I didn't actually think people would look at the

user journeys I don't know why maybe it's really naive me I'm that person that like clicks on address and ends up buying something yeah we know yes we can absolutely see that yeah yeah I think if you buy it from the same like if you go say onto net-a-porter i can see that genuine net-a-porter oh okay well yeah maybe i'm gonna think differently no i'm one of those people that i like go and buy i think my dad is like he was like looking for a sofa and end up buying a car yes exactly but you know you don't see the name the person the individual data you just see you have a user who is doing that you don't see who that person is it's really nice to hear somebody talk positively about the future of

ai and how that can help you transform your business because at the moment it's really negative hi i'm richard karn and you may have seen me on tv talking about the world's number one expandable garden hose well the brand new pocket hose copper Pocket Pivot is here, and it's a total game changer. Old-fashioned hoses get kinks and creases at the spigot, but the Copperhead's Pocket Pivot swivels 360 degrees for full water flow and freedom to water with ease all around your home. When you're all done, this rust-proof anti-burst hose shrinks back down to pocket size for effortless handling and tidy storage. Plus, your super light and ultra-durable Pocket H hose copperhead is backed with a 10-year warranty. What could be better than that? I'll tell you what, an exciting exclusive offer just for you.

For a limited time, you can get a free pocket pivot and their 10-pattern sprayer with the purchase of any size copperhead hose. Just text WATER to 64000. That's WATER to 64000 for your two free gifts with purchase. W-A-T-E-R to 64000. That's WATER to 64000 for your two free gifts with purchase. W-A-T-E-R to 64000. By texting 64000, you agree to receive recurring automated marketing messages from Pocket Host. Message and data rates may apply. No purchase required.

Terms apply. Available at pockethost.com slash terms. Well, I am a bit shit scared about it. I mean, good God, you know, man and machine, the whole conversation around it. There is an existential fear there about AI that I think we're all feeling. But on a day-to-day basis, I also think it could change so much in our health industry, in, you know, in data inequality. Also just on a basic level, you know, I'm just started really experimenting on it for my work. Like, can it create documents for me? Can it create my work like can it create documents for me can it create spreadsheets can it create um stuff that I don't really want to do the boring nitty-gritty

powerpoint stuff um so that I can then be more creative if I can use it to help me and save time because I've got three kids and I work full-time and you know I'm the head of the BSME I want time and so at the moment I'm hoping AI can help me save time. What would be it's like you started your um kind of career in the beginning as like as a journalist you said that's always going to be at the heart of what you do and I find that journalism is such a uh competitive environment to be around so people that want to get into journalism like what what could you take from your experience and like advise them on how to get started?

I think it's a completely different world, journalism, from the one I started. You know, my journalism world was the printed page. So you either chose a magazine route or a newspaper route. Websites weren't even a conversation then. Video wasn't a conversation then. Social media wasn't a conversation then social media wasn't a conversation then so I think now you know journalism at the heart of journalism there has to be truth

and um at the moment we're we're in a misinformation war right on social media you don't know what to believe anymore and people are also skeptical of traditional media saying well you know are they influenced by certain political parties are they non-partisan it's really difficult to know this day and age what's true what isn't true even from an image what's true what isn't true and I think that actually journalism has never been more important for that reason and you know we're bound by very strict codes of conduct as conducts of journalists and you know, we have to check our facts, we have to check our images and make sure that our sources are credible.

And I think that moving forward, that's going to be more important than ever. So as a journalist, if you're a truth seeker and you don't just want to put forward just an opinion on social media, you actually want to do your research and look at your facts and look at where the biases are in images and in writing I think it's going to be a really important and exciting time whether you're a writer or a video producer or a podcast host it doesn't matter what what platform you're storytelling your journalism on

I think if you want to be truthful and do the hard work to make sure that what you're saying is correct then it's a great it's going to be a very important job moving forward I think I hope the future you know will invest in proper training for journalists and will invest in proper checks and you know checks and balances to make sure that we're we're putting out fair and equal reporting what do you think, how do you think young people can develop those skills if there's not anything out there for them? Well, training is the issue, you know, there needs to be more investment in training as far as I'm concerned. We need to be training, you know, I'd say go on courses, you know, City of London do a great journalism course, a lot of the newspapers do, you know City of London do a great journalism course a lot of the newspapers do you know graduate graduate courses they're really hard to get on but we need to be really investing

in the next generation of journalists to make sure that we fight the war on misinformation gain multimedia 360 journalistic experience so learn how to tell stories obviously on the printed page obviously in written work but also in video um and also how do you tell story in events you know our women of the year awards is bringing glamour's female empowerment to life in a room with you know a few hundred people and then then tell the story again on social media to millions of people so you can tell the same story in lots of different ways in truthfulness um and I think you have to really be a 360 multimedia journalist now to to really go far you think people have to stick to like a specific route and like you know if you started off in entertainment do you think if you pick one thing

you have to stick to it I think that no I think you absolutely can move around the types of journalism that you do um I think if you have trained hard for a few years in one one area and you make your contacts in that area and you and you have the expertise in that area then of course you can change but would you want to is the question if you have a passion you know I've always had a passion for telling women's stories within that I've done entertainment I've done celebrity I've done a bit of beauty I've done fashion but at the heart of it for me has always been about women's empowerment um sometimes we touch on politics sometimes we touch on health care um but I like to know what I'm talking about and once you've got the expertise in that topic that's an exciting place to be what advice would you give to women that are also trying to

juggle like their careers and motherhood because that's one of genuinely one of my biggest fears is that if I ever decided to have children they're like my career would just go oh my god I talk about this every single day with people with their colleagues because it no because every woman who might want to have children asks the same question and I never thought about it because I think if I'd I think I think I'd been forensic in trying to work out how I would make it work it I don't think I'd have done it I think sometimes you just got to do it and then worry about it afterwards because you can't predict in a million years which way your career is going to go how it's going to work how

you're how you're going to be in your in your relationship how you what kind of children you're going to have you know I've got friends who have got special needs children and gave up work and they never imagined that they would give up work but that's their that was their path and they want to be at home for their kids more I honestly never thought I would be a full-time working mother you know my mum never worked she was a full-time stay-at-home mum so I didn't have visibility of a working mother from that perspective even though she's now gone to work she went to work when we all left um and but she always did say to me always stand on your own two feet never rely on a man she never explained to me how not to rely on a man yeah she just said never rely on a man so that was absolutely a messaging in the back of my mind that I knew I

had to be independent um I just never imagined that I would be a full-time working mother. So how did that happen? I've always been ambitious. I've loved my job. I love being a journalist. It's one of the best jobs in the world. And opportunities came my way that I didn't want to say no to. And I kind of muddled through and certainly when I started at

Glamour I think I've spoken about this before it was really tough I had three kids and and I think a two four and a six year old not sleeping at night my two-year-old didn't sleep so some days I was going to work having woken up at four o'clock in the morning and then not going back to sleep again and then having a really stressful day people you know slagging me off on social media and then it was it was tough I probably came to the closest thing to burnout that you can possibly have maybe I had been I was never diagnosed I never really dealt with it properly I just know that I wasn't sleeping and I was very anxious and I felt a little bit paranoid and didn't feel like I felt overwhelmed that's the word totally overwhelmed and my husband said to me one day something has got to change here because

he and I were arguing a lot over the mental load and who does you know the laundry and who does who does the dishwasher and who is going to look in you know the nursery whatsapp groups to manage the kids and we were both working full-time he was he was he just was doing a startup he was setting up a business I was almost in a startup at Glamour and he was like something's got to change here you're not yourself I was really miserable and um I didn't want to give up my job because I wanted to make a success of it and obviously I'm not going to give my my job because I wanted to make a success of it. And obviously I'm not going to give up my kids. So it was like, okay, how do I manage that? It's the same question almost every working mum I know asks themselves.

How do I juggle this so that I don't feel I'm failing every single day? And I realised I just have to consciously drop some balls. You cannot, it's not possible in any way, shape or form to do it all. Something has got to give somewhere. And you need to decide what it is that you're going to give up, whether it's your friendships or is it the way you look? You know, is it giving up on the perfect body? Is it, you know, I don't know.

I don't know. Everyone's got different things they give up on. And for me, I certainly reduced my friendship group. I reduced my social life. I... Hi, I'm Richard Karn, and you may have seen me on TV talking about the world's number one expandable garden hose. Well, the brand new Pocket Hose Copperhead with Pocket Pivot is here, and it's a total game changer. Old-fashioned hoses get kinks and creases at the spigot, but the Copperhead's pocket pivot swivels 360 degrees for full water flow and freedom to water with ease all around your home. When you're all done, this rust-proof anti-burst hose

shrinks back down to pocket size for effortless handling and tidy storage. Plus, your super light and ultra-durable pocket hose Copperhead is backed with a 10-year warranty. What could be better than that? I'll tell you what, an exciting exclusive offer just for you. For a limited time, you can get a free pocket pivot and their 10-pattern sprayer with the purchase of any size Copperhead hose. Just text WATER to 64000. That's WATER to 64000 for your two free gifts with purchase. W-A-T-e-r to 64 000 by texting 64 000 you agree to receive recurring automated marketing messages from pocket hose message and data rates may apply no purchase required terms apply available at pockethost.com slash terms just stop worrying

that i lost my baby weight um when i when i messed up at work which we all do regular mess up regularly make mistakes regularly instead of beating myself up about it I think a human being I'm doing the best that I can and I'll learn from it and I won't let it happen again but I'm not going to lie in bed at night worrying about that that mistake I've made I'm not going to be shamed for it and I'm not going to shame myself for it and you know removing that shame from my head and pressure that pressure for myself it was just like it was life-changing and um you know I called it my 70% life because I was chatting to Josh Smith who I know you know one day who worked for me at the time and he said something to me and I said oh well I'm doing my 70% life and he said

what do you mean what the hell is that and I was like well in my head I dropped 30% of balls so anything that I'm doing whether it's at work or whether it's in my general life, I'm going to consciously say, I can't do that. And I'm not going to worry about it. Even if other people are judging me for it, I'm not going to worry about it. And he was like, that's insane. I need to know about that. And so it just set off a long line of thinking from where I've written a couple of articles on that i've interviewed people on it and actually most people not just women most people can benefit from dropping 30 percent of balls and focusing 100 on the 70 and that's that's what i've done and that's how i've made it work for me personally i think it's it's really nice to hear because i was also one of the um people that grew up with

a mum who was a stay-at-home mum but she was always like you know you have to follow your passions follow your dreams and then sometimes i lay there and I don't even have children but I think I can't let this go yeah and like when it's nice to hear or like see somebody that you look up to or think is a successful person being able to say like I've had to make those conscious decisions to be able to yeah oh my god you'll go mad if you don't. You cannot, this ridiculousness of, you know, have it all woman or do it all woman. It's crazy. It's not true. And you know, by the way, men don't do it all, but they don't beat themselves up about not doing it all. And that's the difference between men and women. We, when we aren't a hundred percent perfect,

absolutely everything we do from our friendships to our you know our working life to being a mother to be we're like i'm a terrible person i'm a truly terrible person you know in the past this morning when my daughter said i've got a school trip and i was like i don't know what you're talking about i'd have been like i'm a terrible mother i put myself first i was at this event last night and i've you know know, I've let my daughter down. No, I just woke up. I thought, okay. Quickly went into my emails, saw what needed to be done.

It was actually very little. I just had to send her with a little snack and something to it, which was fine. And I messaged one of the other mums, said, is this absolutely what we need? And she said, yep, don't worry. You've not missed anything here. And that was it. And I'm not, I'm laughing about it. I'm not thinking what a terrible person I am

because you are allowed to put yourself first when you're a mother. This idea of sacrificing everything for your children doesn't make you a better mother. It just, you know, if you're happy, they're happy. And for me, that's what works. But I hear so many people say to me, I don't think I'm going to have kids because of my career. And I think, no, you can do it both.

You can do it. It's tough. And at different points in your career, you might make different decisions. So at some point, you might want to go part-time and step back. At other points, you might feel confident to push yourself forward. And, you know it ebbs and flows and remove your ego from the whole situation basically that that that's the

way to make the right decisions for you and your family just remove your ego from the situation and just do what you know you can achieve and feel good about and everything else don't worry about it now I think that's um a really good um segue into the final question so I always ask all of my guests a similar final question so if you could give your younger self a piece of advice based on your career and life journey so far what would it be one piece of advice don't listen to anybody I mean glamour wouldn't be as successful digital empire that it is if you listen to everyone. You know best. You know best. And, you know, there was a situation once

when someone said to me, you know, I'm thinking of breaking up my boyfriend because blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay. And she said, but, you know, I've got some of my friends telling me that I've got to marry him. And I've got other of my friends telling me

that we've got to split up. And I was like, well, what's it got to do with them like really literally what and actually a lot of the time when people give you advice it's they're projecting and I'm sure even what I'm saying today I'm projecting my own experiences onto everybody else just because it's worked for me or is important to me doesn't mean that it is for other people and so even the most well-meaning people when they comment on what you do or they advise you on something they're putting in their own you know nuances and perspectives and and their own biases they're putting their own biases into that advice

and their own fears you know maybe they think they couldn't do something so they're telling you you won't be able to do it so don't listen do it do what you think is right and as long as you're not harming yourself or other people around you in which case obviously you should be taking advice listen to your gut instinct go with what you feel is right it very rarely fails you in my experience it's very very rarely failed me the times that things have gone wrong is when I've listened to other people against my own judgment and it always goes wrong I think um thank you so much for coming on and giving me a like an hour of your incredibly hectic schedule um and I've really appreciated and I've loved it it's been great I mean I love what you're doing as well I

mean you're really doing some great work around online safety for women. It's much needed. And, you know, as the mother of two young girls and a son, it's something I worry about every single day. Every single day, what is life going to look like for them online in five, ten, three to five years, actually? And, you know, we need people like you pushing that conversation forward. Well, hopefully I'll get to see you at more play hard events and not just the work hard ones. actually and you know we need people like you pushing that conversation forward yeah well

hopefully I'll get to see you at more play hard events and not just the work hard ones absolutely oh I do both