Girls Know Nothing - S2 Ep6: Ruth Davison - CEO Refuge: The rise in misogyny influencers & the demand for DA services

Episode Date: March 2, 2023

Welcome back to Girls Know Nothing! 🧡 GKN is a female focused podcast hosted by @SharonNJGaffka Our next guest is Ruth Davison, the Chief Executive Officer of Refuge (https://refuge.org.uk/) 1 in 4 women will experience domestic abuse in her lifetime. Refuge is the largest specialist domestic abuse organisation in the UK. On any given day their services support thousands of survivors, helping them to overcome the physical, emotional, financial and logistical impacts of abuse and rebuild their lives — free from fear. If you are a woman and in need of support the National Domestic Abuse  24-hour Helpline: 0808 2000 247 If you are a man and in need of domestic abuse support: https://www.respect.uk.net/ You can donate here: https://refuge.org.uk/i-want-to-suppo... New episodes of Girls Know Nothing 🧡 will be released every Thursday, and will also be available on Spotify, Apple podcasts and wherever you get your podcast fixes! GKN Social Channels: Https://linktr.ee/girlsknownothing  Instagram: @girlsknownothingpod  TikTok: @girlsknownothing

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Just text water to 64,000. That's water to 64,000 for your two free gifts with purchase. W-A-T-E-R to 64,000. By texting 64,000, you agree to receive recurring automated marketing messages from Pocket Hose. Message and data rates may apply. No purchase required. Terms apply. Available at pockethose.com slash terms. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. Stop struggling to get your job posts seen on other job sites. With Indeed Sponsored Jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates,

so you can reach the people you want faster. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non-sponsored jobs. Don't wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com slash kids and family. Just go to indeed.com slash kids and family right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Know Nothing. Today's guest is Ruth Davison,

and Ruth is the Chief Executive Officer at Refuge. Ruth has over 15 years experience in the voluntary sector, including complex fundraising programs and increasing the income of charity organizations. Ruth has mainly focused on working in charities that specialize in international development, social justice, and the environment. For those of you that don't know, I have been an ambassador to Refuge for almost coming up to a year now. And for those that don't know, Refuge is the biggest domestic abuse charity in the UK. On any given day, the organisation supports thousands of women, helping them to overcome physical, emotional and financial as well as logistical impacts of abuse to help rebuild their lives. One in four women in the UK will experience domestic abuse in her lifetime.

And for every 30 seconds, the police receive a call for help relating to domestic abuse. Thousands of women and children are supported by Refuge on any given day. Welcome to the studio, Ruth. Obviously, I've talked a little bit about our connection and the work that I have done with Refuge but for the listeners that don't necessarily know what Refuge is or does can you tell us a little bit about what your core mission is? Sure so Refuge is the largest specialist charity supporting women and their children who experience domestic abuse here in this country. So our real mission is to end domestic abuse, to stop it being tolerated

in society. But day to day, we deal with the epidemic of domestic abuse that is affecting us. One in four women here in the UK will be affected in their lifetime. So we are first and foremost, a frontline service providing charity. You talked a little bit about the day to day services that charity provides, but what day today does your role look like in refuge? I have one of the most amazing jobs in the world I always wanted to work in the voluntary sector so I could do something with meaning and purpose and I'm very lucky that I get to take all that expertise and insight from my frontline colleagues and then convert that into advocacy, public campaigning, awareness raising. I also have to manage a brilliant senior leadership team,

but they're so excellent that that is also a joy. So a combination of internal work running the charity and then external work trying to shift perspectives in society through conversations like this. It's really nice to have people on the podcast that actually enjoy their jobs because quite a lot of the time on the internet, you hear people moan about their jobs instead of talking about the joyful joyful parts of their job um obviously i will go on to a little bit more about the campaigns that refuge have on at the moment and the ones i've been very fortunate to be a part of but i did a little bit of internet stalking on you um sorry if you got the little notification of just me popping up every five minutes but i've seen you've worked in the voluntary and charity sector

for quite a lot of your career. What kind of inspired you to want to pursue this? Yeah, it's so ingrained within me. I find that quite hard to answer. My mum was a nurse and she worked early in her career, one of the first nurses who was providing terminal care for people who were dying of AIDS during the HIV and AIDS epidemic in the 80s. And I think probably that instilled in me a desire to do something with my life that was meaningful. That's probably why I love my job. Don't be under any illusions. It's really hard work. Working on the front lines of domestic abuse is traumatic. But you know, ultimately, at the end of each day that you've done something with some meaning. And sometimes we have big campaign wins um it's great

the work that we do with you and sometimes we have tiny wins and sometimes one woman will reach out to us and we know that we're the only people that she would have spoken to and all of that provides so much kind of joy and reward and and reflects I guess my values and who I want to be as a person, that that's why I entered the sector and why I get so much joy from the job I do now. And briefly, off camera, we talked a little bit about what it's like to work in the voluntary sector, and especially when it's closer towards violence against women and girls and about compassion fatigue. Do you find that sometimes in your job, you do experience that as a result of the things that you do see?

I think often I feel quite angry when I try and galvanise that anger into action. I understand there's so much that we all have to care about and worry about in our day-to-day personal lives and in society and in the world. And it's difficult to find the headspace and heart space to care about everything. But I find it really distressing how little attention is paid to violence against women and girls when two women a week, every single week, will lose their lives to their former or current partner. And yet it's very rare those stories make the headlines.

And if they make the headlines, it's rare they'll stay there for more than a few days. And I think there's so much that needs to change in how we think about violence against women and girls and misogyny in society. But that yeah I'm worried that compassion fatigue and not caring enough really makes our lives and jobs much more difficult. I do think as well when we talk about women that have fallen victims to forms of domestic abuse there is a Twitter account I do follow that puts the names and stories up of

women that have unfortunately experienced some kind of violence and didn't make a headline. And when you see the grand scale of what actually happens behind closed doors, it is really upsetting, but it's also kind of upsetting in a way to see how media does portray victims as well. Is that something that you find is a big struggle when working with Refuge? Oh my goodness, yes. The kind of victim blaming in relation to violence against women and girls is so, so prevalent and obvious.

Just this week, there was an article from the Domestic Abuse Commissioner, Nicole Jacobs, calling that out. You know, we saw the tragic murder of the head teacher at Epsom College and her daughter by her husband. But the headline was all about how her kind of successful career emasculated him. You wouldn't see that story in reverse. Again, a very recent terrible story, not connected to domestic abuse, but Nicola Bulley's tragic death.

That was reported on and we heard details about her health you know her relationship with alcohol again why why would that be relevant to the fact that she was a missing person and there was an urgent investigation to try and find her so i think we just accept and normalize that this is how these stories are reported and yet it reinforces stereotypes and it reinforces very very harmful misogynistic attitudes yeah i think it's think it's kind of mind-blowing for me. Obviously, when I was younger and I was seeing these things, it just kind of came normalised and became desensitised to it. But now I'm who I am now and I've woken up to it. I've never once seen an article written about a male victim

in the same way as we see how female victims are put on trial, essentially, for being victims. And I guess that's one of the reasons why I wanted to be so like, well, I wanted to work closely with Refuge. And we work very closely on the online safety bill. So for those people that don't know what the online safety bill is, do you want to give a bit of a breakdown? So the online safety bill is a piece of legislation. It's currently making its way through the laws and will hopefully become law in the next few months it will be the first bill of its kind the first piece of legislation of its kind anywhere in the world to try and regulate the online environment you know a space

that all of us spend time in and that's a huge opportunity when looking at that regulation and when holding the companies to account to look at how do we hold them to account and regulate to protect women and girls online why diduge become involved in online safety bill campaigning? Yeah in 2017 Refuge set up the UK's first and still the UK's only specialist tech facilitated abuse team and we did that because my colleagues on the front line were hearing increasing numbers of stories about tech being used as part of the abuse that a woman was experiencing whether that was maybe where people's heads jumped to immediately you know being trolled or kind of really unpleasant comments online whether that was hacking into her account whether that was cyber stalking and I noticed you said

you cyber stalked me earlier. Sorry. Or whether it's far, far more sinister, you know, the use of malware and spyware to track a woman. This online abuse is interconnected with offline abuse. All abuse is a pattern of behavior. It's highly dangerous. And yet we still have the only specialist frontline team working on it. And we felt we can't just keep trying to meet the growing, growing demand. And it's exponentially growing the demand for that team's services as tech abuse becomes more complicated and more prevalent. We had to also try and stem the problem upstream.

We had to look at where are the solutions that can stop this happening to so many women and destroying so many people's lives. I think there is a problem and there's a massive misconception of domestic abuse is that it's only physical. And people forget that unfortunately, with the way that technology is moving, even if you've physically left your perpetrator, they still have some onerous of control over you. What does your specialist tech unit help support victims with specifically? Yeah, so we'll work with the most complex cases, the most dangerous cases. If all of your devices and perhaps also the Internet of Things within your home,

if all of them have been compromised, it's very hard to know how to solve that yourself. It's dangerous to go online to look for advice. It's dangerous maybe even to call or message anyone for help. So our team will work with you to clean your devices, to make them safe again, to replace them if necessary, and to guide you through that process. We also do publish on our tech safety website some more basic advice for people who are experiencing perhaps lower-level, less complex tech abuse,

how to change passwords, the kinds of stuff that you might expect, and how to kind of get your devices clear and see if anyone might have infiltrated them. So our team really are reserved for the very, very complex, highly dangerous cases. We staged a little bit of, I want to say a protest, it's not the right word, but when the Online Safety Bill re-returned to Parliament

to show parliamentarians how many women actually face online abuse daily and I can't remember the exact number but it was just the sheer number of women that walked through Westminster that one day that would experience abuse is insane and when you can translate it to the rest of the UK it's people forget that it's not just the normal stuff like controlling money. But I'm a single woman, I'm not with a partner, but I experience a huge array of online abuse.

And I know a lot of people that do listen and people that have reached out to me as well experience it. It's hard to know what to do if it's not coming from a partner or where to be able to seek help from. And I don't know if this is ever something you'd be able to talk about, but what would be the best advice for anybody that's kind of experiencing that level of harassment online?

Yeah, it's really difficult. And unfortunately, the main advice that women are still given, and I'm sure people give it to you as well, just delete your account, love, or, you know, just stop tweeting. Don't put yourself out there so much. And I think Refuge is outraged really, whether it's a partner, a former partner or a stranger, none of us should be forced off online spaces. So you can look at our tech safety website that would have useful tips. We also did a brilliant project with Avast, which was about a digital breakup. So if you've been in contact with someone and communication with someone,

and you want to make sure you have a clean digital breakup and can move away from them, protecting yourself, you can do that. But I think you're right. What you're talking to is the just day-to-day trolling and abuse that you will get from complete strangers who have no reason really to harm you other than that they can. And I think that speaks to the widespread misogyny in our society that people feel able to do that. I know it's not just against women and girls I know all sorts of people will experience this kind of online hate and silencing

and being forced off these platforms and it's just utterly unacceptable. The online safety bill is a chance to really change that for all sorts of groups who need special protection including women and girls. Have you, as Refuge, have you seen an increase in demand since we've seen an increase in misogyny influencers taking place online? Yeah, it's hard to draw a direct parallel, but there is no doubt that the very, very influential, widespread misogyny influencers, as you kindly call them, are making a lot of money and are fundamentally

shifting attitudes of young people particularly younger boys in school and that is very dangerous I think we've been around for 50 years as refuge we don't want to exist I don't want to do this job as much as I enjoy it I would much rather that refuge isn't needed and yet we're seeing misogynistic attitudes actually accelerate and expand and grow and that is a result of online influencing so as a result of kind of what we've seen directly targeting towards women and girls obviously refuge is a massive campaigner and putting violence against women and girls code of practice into the online safety bill what does that actually mean for potential victims or for female users online you're doing my job for me you really are a very good campaigner on this i think yeah we are calling for a code of practice you're right

and that specific guidance that we've written with other charities other specialists to say what would you need to do and it looks at everything step by step safety by design when you create these platforms how do you make sure that they're inherently safe which isn't a consideration anyone has at the moment right the way through to how do you respond when someone is abused? So at the moment, for example, you can't report and flag domestic abuse as the cause of the abuse you're receiving. It's just not a tick box. So you can't indicate this is likely to be part of a pattern rather than a one-off incident. Or it's not just this one comment or photo that I've put up that's drawing attention. It's a specific perpetrator who is relentlessly targeting me,

perhaps through multiple accounts. That would be incredibly useful, as well as basics around commitments to, you know, fast turnarounds and responses to women, who can often wait for months and months for an answer or hear nothing, which only demoralizes and re-traumatizes them. So our code of practice would be a step-by-step guide, really, through everything from how you set the platform and products up to how you train the staff and how you respond when something goes wrong. I know there's a lot of people that are very against the bill in general, and it's been very challenging to get this code of practice

to be taken seriously by parliamentarians. What do you think is the biggest reason they don't want to support this? Yeah, I've had a lot of arguments around freedom of speech. We should be able to do what we want and anything that entails freedom of speech is deeply worrying. And I think that's why we've lost

what could have been a really helpful part of the bill around legal but harmful content. However, that said, the code of practice could work and more crimes against women and girls have been included in priority crimes now as the legislation's developed. So I think this is a first step, isn't it? This is the first attempt by any country in the world anywhere to regulate the online space. If it's only regulating what is illegal content, it's not far enough, but it is a first step step and hopefully that allays the fears of those who worry that their freedoms are curtailed unnecessarily i think it's one thing that's

really hard is that the internet is like i remember when i first got into internet it was dial up and you could play games for like 15 minutes before the internet basically crashed but now it is such a big thing and it's part of our everyday lives. Realistically, do you ever think we're ever going to be safe 100% online? I think the reality for all women and girls and many, many people is that no, we're not completely safe. You probably make risk assessments all the time in the real world and online. You know, are you carrying your keys when you walk home so you can get into the house that bit quicker?

Are you going to take that alleyway or walk through the park? Or are you going to walk a longer route down a main road? We are used to, as women and girls, having to think about how do we keep ourselves safe all the time. And the online space is no different. So I guess depressingly, my answer is no. But that doesn't mean that we should put in as many safeguards as possible. You know, streetlights, police on the streets. We need those kinds of measures.

Not exactly those, but we need those kinds of safety measures in the online space as possible, you know, streetlights, police on the streets. We need those kinds of measures, not exactly those, but we need those kinds of safety measures in the online space as well, just to take down the risk level. I think if there's anyone that is particularly listening to this episode that doesn't really necessarily believe in the online safety bill because of freedom of speech, if they haven't heard me talk in the House of Lords briefing event, I said to you guys and peers that were in the briefing that one of the things that I'm very concerned about is if we don't implement this code of practice quick enough or the legislation quick enough that what I'm experiencing online will transpire into real life. And it's one of those things now where, you know,

you were talking about women walking home with keys in their fingers. Yes, that's outside. But once I've put the key in the door and I'm at home, if I'm not, you know, women don't feel safe in their own home sometimes, even if they do live alone. And that's because of the online harassment that we do face. And there's a lot of women very bravely speaking up about it. So I think, you know, they're amazing to speak up. But unfortunately, things that women like Emily Atack have experienced must never be a thing and that is not anyone's freedom of speech whatsoever and you know we really have to think about is your ability to say what you want online worth someone's mental health and well-being and life I don't think it is and will never be. I agree. I mean, having the freedom to spread hatred, spread harm, normalise views that cost

people their lives. The work we do at Refuge is about saving lives. Women taking the brave step to save their own life and get themselves and their children to freedom, to safety, and to a better future. Online hatred is a big part of that dynamic. Our sister charity, the Susie Lampley Trust that deals with stalking have reported now 100% of the cases that they deal with with stalking have an online element to them. So this is not contained behaviour in an online world that you can just delete yourself from or switch off. You're right, the repercussions of it are very real in the real world, in people's physical safety and in their mental health and well-being. Yeah, I recently saw on Instagram about a collaboration with Refuge and the organisation Make It Mandatory. I do follow

Make It Mandatory online because I think what they do is amazing. Obviously, unfortunately, the story as to the reason it came about in the first place is really, really tragic and really hard. What kind of inspired that collaboration between the two organizations? Yeah, so Make It Mandatory are amazing. They inspire me as well, a young survivor-led campaign to say, if we really want to eradicate domestic abuse, we have to educate and we have to educate young people when they're still in school so as you go into your very first relationship how do you know what is healthy and what is normal what to expect of yourself what to expect your partner what is a normal compromise as part of growing

together as two people and what is actually totally unacceptable so we reached out to make it mandatory actually and said to them we think what you're doing is amazing and I'm very aware Refuge has a large voice and a large platform and we wanted to make that available to them so that they could reach a larger audience really and we're very proud to be their partner and collaborate with them. I think right at the start I said you know our vision is a world where domestic abuse isn't tolerated but my day-to-day work is on the front line dealing with survivors who are experiencing domestic abuse right now make it mandatory are doing something right at the heart of my vision they're saying this is what it takes to eradicate it in society and at a time when these online misogynists are making their money um by spreading hatred in exactly that demographic this has never been more urgent really yeah i think it's like

well it goes ties in a little bit to what we're talking about online safety is that unfortunately the way the algorithm can work it does push potentially vulnerable men down a very dangerous hi i'm richard karn and you may have seen me on tv talking about the world's number one expandable garden hose well the brand new pocket hose copperhead with pocket pivot is here and it's a total game changer. Old-fashioned hoses get kinks and creases at the spigot, but the Copperhead's Pocket Pivot swivels 360 degrees for full water flow and freedom to water with ease all around your home. When you're all done, this rust-proof anti-burst hose shrinks back down to pocket size for effortless handling and tidy storage. Plus, your super light and ultra durable pocket hose copperhead

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It's a route where the lack of education about what healthy relationships is or should look like, they learn it from these misogyny influencers. And then that does transpire into, again, having services like refuge and having such high demand um there is refuge are helping make it mandatory lead a campaign um by asking people to write to gillian keegan um could you just give a little bit of an overview as to like why you're asking people to write to her and what that letter kind of entails yeah i mean it's a relatively simple ask as the minister for education she can do exactly what they're saying and make it mandatory that everyone in every sixth form in the uk receives education

on domestic abuse and specifically on coercive control so that they can learn their red flags about behavior not just from love island which i'm a big fan of and which is actually where most people are probably getting this information at the moment, through watching an episode and then chatting with family or friends, but actually in school as well, in the classroom where they can be taught and be told this is a healthy relationship. This is what you need to do. This is what you should be expecting. This is what is not okay. And here are some red flags. If you can learn that in that formative period of your first few relationships then actually that could make a whole difference for the rest of your life so the ask of Gillian Keegan is exactly what you expect from the campaign name please make education on domestic abuse and coercive control mandatory in all six forms

do you think I don't I hate always asking like questions this, but just to play devil's advocate, do you think that parents have more responsibility to help educate their young children, particularly their young boys, and what healthy relationships should look like? Yeah, I think it's the parent's responsibility as well. I think they'll do their best, but not everyone grows up in a family

where they can have that kind of input necessarily. And I think the healthy conversations that can happen, it's good to put them in as many places as possible. So if they're happening in school too, then that could be counteracting an unhealthy narrative at home or just speaking into a void, which is going to be essential. Yeah, I think it's actually really important. I guess like in my household is very traditional. So I never really spoke about these things. And like there's never anywhere to learn about it, especially with PHSE kind of being a subject that's very left behind in schools so I feel like you know when you experience something on a day-to-day basis you consider that as normal

especially if it's very heavily reflected in media and so like if for people that do want to help participate and support Refuge with their campaign and make it mandatory I'll put a link in the bio to be able to send Gillian Keegan a letter as well. Thank you I think that will really help the more people who add their voices whether you're in school whether you've got kids in school whether you just care about this and wish it was there when you were in school it can make a real difference. Yeah definitely your comms team kindly told me about you speaking on a panel at Another Way Now event to talk about policing. And obviously, we've been heavily talking about misogyny and violence against women and girls in media. Obviously, nobody, regardless of how little or much you

read the news, can say they've never heard about issues with policing, unfortunately. So do you want to give a little bit of an intro into what that event was about and how you as a Refuge ambassador or ambassador of Refuge would have spoken on the panel? Sure. So this was the first time we've collaborated with another Wainer who we absolutely love. And they are trying deliberately to open

these kinds of difficult conversations. I went along because I think it's only when we have these conversations that you're going to shift the norms in society, and if we don't speak out, then the loud voices are the ones who earn the most money, who are the misogynist influencers. So it was a great conversation about what should we do about police-perpetrated domestic abuse, which unfortunately we know is a very big problem. I was invited because on the day that the David Carrick story broke, I did a lot of media and a few days later we dumped

1,071 rotten apples outside New Scotland Yard to say, we're tired of the kind of reporting we spoke about earlier about these cases, that it's one bad apple or sometimes it's victim blaming. But in this case, lots of narrative that had been coming from the police saying, you know, Wayne Cousins, my goodness, he was a monster. That's not what the police are like. He was a badden. The reality is there's a systemic problem

with misogyny in the Met Police Force and in policing. So the event last night was talking about what do we need to see and do to stop this? And how has it got to this stage? How has it got to the stage where as a woman who already knows you may be victim blamed when you report this crime, you now have to get over the fear that the person you're reporting to is himself an abuser. Do you ever have a closer relationship with police forces or do police forces ever reach out to Refuge to be able to see what they can do to be better yeah i am very critical vocally of the police but we do also have a constructive positive working relationship with them including the met and they do work with us

and brief us because we run the uk's national domestic abuse helpline they will tell us when a very very significant story is coming so we can put on extra staff and callers knowing it will trigger many survivors and that they may contact us for help so we really appreciate that and obviously sometimes when a woman contacts us the best advice we can give her is to call the police if she's in extreme danger so I don't want anyone to think that we're saying the police you know are all bad apples the problem is how you tell the difference and I think that's why one of the things we're calling for is the immediate suspension and investigation of any officer who faces accusations of domestic abuse or sexual offences against women and girls.

That's a relatively simple thing to bring in quickly, and it could give a real level of assurance that, of course, this is going to happen. The police is reflective of society, and domestic abuse is prevalent in society. But when it happens that police officer is not going to be someone you are going to have to deal with if you go forward to report a crime. I don't know if this is actually already taking place but I'd really

like to see a bit more of a well more strategic and better background checks on people before they sign up to be a police officer and I don't know if this is ever something that any form of domestic abuse organisation has ever been able to do but to be able to work with the up to be a police officer. And I don't know if this is ever something that any form of domestic abuse organisation has ever been able to do, but to be able to work with the police, to be able to put that in place as a policy so they don't even have to go to that stage and they're a bit more proactive about their recruitment process. Yeah, there is vetting of police officers, but David Carrick is a terrible example. He'd already had allegations of domestic abuse against him before he even applied to be a police officer and they weren't taken seriously enough. but David Carrick is a terrible example. He'd already had allegations of domestic abuse against him before he even applied to be a police officer

and they weren't taken seriously enough. He was revetted during the course of his career. He'd had other allegations since then. Again, they weren't taken seriously enough. So there is vetting, but I'm not sure it's fit for purpose, as you say. And I know that that's one of the things the new commissioner has committed to looking at to strengthen vetting and revetting processes. So I'm aware of Refuge's domestic abuse helpline. I will put the number in the bio as well just in case that there is anybody that is listening that does need help and support.

I actually don't know much about the team themselves or what they do or how they're trained or like how they get there but obviously we know especially now with the increase in demand it's a very important frontline job that they do so you know how how does that team come about are they strictly volunteers are they paid staff yeah it's a great question we are very proud to run the national domestic abuse helpline and it really is the gateway to all services as well as a place to come, exactly as you said, for advice and support and to be believed and to think through your options. So it's staffed predominantly by volunteers and then with some trained staff who supervise and are a point of escalation for very high-risk cases.

Volunteers go through really rigorous training and have to commit to minimum hours of shift. So it's not an easy volunteering job. And I have huge admiration for people who give up their time to do this, often on top of full-time jobs as well. They're some of the most empathetic and skilled expert people I've ever met. So they will be there 24 hours a day. Someone will answer if you phone and will listen to you, first and foremost, listen to your questions about, is this okay?

What's happening to me? Or if you're phoning in a snatched moment where you can get yourself to safety we'll help you safety plan immediately and work out what is best for you to do right then and there to get yourself and your children away is i always assume when you think about calling places like that is it just somebody like a whole load of people in an office or are they like very individual spaces because you don't want other people to hear necessarily what's happening yeah so the team works in a hybrid way and we also have a live chat function so that's particularly helpful for younger women who prefer to type out their questions and for anyone who it's not safe to speak you know they're trapped

in a home with their abuser so they can't phone um the team does work in an office they've got a bespoke office that's set up as a call centre. And during COVID, we moved to full remote working so that there wasn't any downtime on the helpline. So they can also do shifts from home. So it's a bit of a hybrid. It's a very demanding role, volunteer or paid role to do from home. You know, if you're in your bedroom or in your lounge and then you come off shift having dealt with very traumatic calls to then kind of relax, make a cup of tea of tea watch television I think that's very difficult so a lot of people do prefer to work from the office where they've got other people around them the managers are on call and

right there and you can create a little bit of separation and boundaries in your life. I think it's really important I think that's the one thing that a lot of people have learned as a result of the pandemic to be able to set boundaries I know at the beginning I was I was really bad for working in my bed, which is obviously not good for your own mental health, especially if you're dealing with something as intense as that. If somebody was really interested in becoming a volunteer or being able to work with Refuge in that way, what could they expect to be able to do? So we will advertise when we have volunteer vacancies and we take and train cohorts of volunteers at once. They can look on our website and see when we have volunteering opportunities open

or registered to be told. You'd get at least one week of very intensive training. It's an amazing training course. I did it myself, explaining to you what is domestic abuse, how does it work, as well as some of the pragmatics of, you know, how to manage your shifts and book in.

And then you would start on live chat so volunteers will start handling live chat so they could be supervised more closely and before they would move on to taking live calls just because of the risk element of the call if that really is a woman's only few moments to make a call we need to make sure you're not just trained but you've had a lot of experience in handling these situations so so it's a phased entry which reduces the pressure on the volunteer as well. Yeah, I was going to ask about the level of support that volunteers may receive from Refuge as well.

Because obviously if you are dealing with something that's very high pressured, I can imagine it can be very difficult for the person who's also taking the call just as much for the person calling in in the first place. Yeah, and I think compared to some of the other jobs within Refuge, where it's all paid staff actually so in the safe houses the refuges themselves are in our community outreach I think

the helpline is more tricky because you don't necessarily stay with the woman on her journey there are one point of contact service usually so you know there will be some calls where someone phones you support them you can get them direct access into a refuge. And, you know, there's a completion to that story, which, however traumatic it is, at least brings its sense of reward. But often we're a step along the way and you're not sure what happens to that woman. And it does make those particularly demanding roles, I think.

So we have a brilliant and very empathetic and highly, highly qualified staff team who lead the National Domestic Abuse Helpline and who support them. It's actually really nice. Like all of the people that I've met that work in refuge are very empathetic and will literally listen to anything even like when I've talked about my own stuff even if that's not their job it's it must be really nice to and rewarding to work in that kind of environment where you don't feel worried about opening up to your colleagues especially when you spend that amount of time at

work. I mean one thing that I always get from people online when I talk about my work with Refuge is that women are not the only victims of domestic abuse. But I always maintain that, obviously, unfortunately, women are more likely to be victims. But if a man phoned the Refuge helpline, he wouldn't be turned away. He would just be redirected to something that's more suitable for him. Yeah, that's right. I mean, men do experience domestic abuse. Of course they deserve support and they need help as well.

That's just not what Refuge does. We work with Respect, who are an incredible charity specifically set up to support male victims, so they don't support female victims. And I think it's far better as charities. You know know we don't solve all the problems in the world I care about a whole range of issues I really care about climate change but refuge doesn't work on that so I think I wouldn't want anyone to misinterpret because we are a charity that supports women and their children that we don't think men deserve support that we don't recognize

that they can experience domestic abuse i would strongly encourage them to contact respect who are absolutely excellent and you're right if a man comes to the national domestic abuse helpline respect run the men's advice helpline and we will refer and pass them on to them because they could provide all the expertise and and guidance and support that those men will need do you ever find as a as part and parcel of your what's not part and parcel of your role but you ever find that because of the nature of the stuff you do and the fact you're supporting mainly female well female victims do you ever receive

any abuse yourself as a result of that? Yes and I think that's depressing isn't it but that's part of the job and sometimes it's based on misunderstandings that's depressing, isn't it? But that's part of the job. And sometimes it's based on misunderstandings that people think I don't recognize that there are male victims or I don't think they should get help. So I just try and clarify that, of course, that's not my view or my perspective. And sometimes, probably like you,

it's just arbitrary abuse because of the nature of what my job is. And I just have to ignore it because this is the reality of being a woman, of being anyone who has any profile and of being someone who speaks to their values in their daily life. What I experience is nothing like

what the women I support are experiencing and what they are bravely coming forward and trying to work their way through. So yeah, it's not something that would ever deter me. I think it's something that's really hard. I don't think people will take into consideration that is an aspect or will be part of your role, unfortunately, which it should never be part of.

Obviously, people say we're out of the pandemic. Technically, I don't think we are because there are still COVID cases around. But we did see for services like Refuge a massive increase. What was it like to work with Refuge during the pandemic years? Yeah, so I joined after the very, very peak of the pandemic. And what Refuge had done was absolutely incredible. Taking the National Domestic Abuse Helpline to fully remote

working. Within three days, our frontline workers in refuges and community services were designated as key workers. They didn't stop. Hi, I'm Richard Karn, and you may have seen me on TV talking about the world's number one expandable garden hose. Well, the brand new pocket hose copperhead with pocket pivot is here, and it's a total game changer. Old-fashioned hoses get kinks and creases at the spigot, but the Copperhead's pocket pivot swivels 360 degrees for full water flow and freedom to water with ease all around your home. When you're all done, this rust-proof anti-burst hose shrinks back down to pocket size for effortless handling and tidy storage. Plus, your super light and ultra-durable pocket hose Copperhead is backed with a 10-year warranty. What could be better than that? I'll tell you what, offerless handling, and tidy storage. Plus, your super light and ultra durable pocket hose copperhead

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000 you agree to receive recurring automated marketing messages from pocket hose message and data rates may apply no purchase required terms apply available at pockethost.com slash terms didn't furlough anyone they continue to work really hard to raise awareness of domestic abuse there was a period right at the start of the pandemic when you know we were all told so clearly to stay at home but i think women who were deeply unsafe at home didn't know what to do. And we were really pleased to work with politicians to clarify that, you know, if you are not safe at home, of course you can leave. But in the early days, that critical advice was so essential, as well as making as famous as we could the number for the National Domestic Abuse Helpline, because we knew that women were

experiencing more abuse when they were trapped at home and when their perpetrator was also trapped with them behind a closed door where no one could see. Just that moment you might have had to walk the children to school or to pick up a prescription, all of those chances to escape were gone and it became a very, very dangerous time. So yeah, coming into refuge and leading through the end of the pandemic and now into this new world we've emerged in has been a big challenge. But my main respect is for my staff who took through the really, really difficult early phases of COVID and who did it with such love. Do you think we've yet to see the extent of what the pandemic has done to domestic abuse victims or not? Yeah, unfortunately, I don't think we've fully seen

what's happened as a result. It has a silver lining is that it has raised awareness a little bit. We've had more conversations about domestic abuse. I think it created a collective moment of empathy when we all realised how frustrated or difficult or unhappy we were trapped in our own homes. And then we thought, my goodness, what if someone was trying to kill me? So I think that's the only silver lining we're taking away. But as we lurch as UK society from

the pandemic into a cost of living crisis, the cost for women, I don't think we've even begun to count yet. And I am deeply concerned about what the cost of living crisis is now going to do to frontline services and women in abusive relationships. Every guest that I've had on since it's kind of been more talked about in the news has had some kind of impact or something happened to them as a result of the cost of living crisis. You know, we're seeing charities not be able to get the funding they need. You know, like you were saying off camera, that the frontline services are being stripped back.

What does this mean for victims of domestic abuse? Yeah, it's just as terrifying as the pandemic, frankly. I think we're seeing a triple impact, as many charities are. It won't just be us. But obviously, I'm acutely aware of the life and death element of our work. So demand is going up again. There will be more economic abuse and there will be more other forms of abuse as people struggle to make ends meet and pressure is increased in already dangerous relationships. So our demand will go up. Our costs are going up. Everyone's costs are going up. We run accommodation-based services. We have to keep those services warm. We have to heat them. People

have to cook food for themselves and their children. And all of those bills are bills that Refuge bears that are going up. And also we're seeing our income affected. So local authorities don't have more money to increase the costs of our contracts. But we have to give our staff pay rises because they've got to survive this as well. So it is a really worrying time for any charity, but particularly for frontline service providing charities, I think. And I think we are very worried that this cost of living will cost women's lives. They won't feel able to flee. They will see that they're themselves facing a choice between staying in an abusive relationship

that they can try and continue to manage or being left destitute with their children. And they will choose to stay and continue to manage a dangerous situation. And that's terrifying. It's quite scary when you think about it in real terms that that's a choice that somebody has to make. And when you think about it or when you say it, you feel like that's a choice that people make in third world countries, not a choice that people should make, especially in the UK,

when you think this is supposed to be a safer country or wealthier country. But when you actually look at the figures and the reality for what a lot of women have to suffer through the UK is actually really mind-boggling, mind-blowing. Why do you think politicians are reluctant to be able to provide a fund for victims to escape? But I don't know if you even have an answer to that

or if you can answer that. I think it is a shame that a recent campaign by Women's Aid and across the sector to say we need an emergency fund for survivors to help them escape wasn't successful. I absolutely understand the pressure the government is under. You know, it's not just domestic abuse. The cost of living crisis, as you said, is affecting every guest you speak to. It's affecting every single one of us and every part of society. And the government has to take a view across all of that. But I would say, as you would expect me to say, this is people's lives. This is them and their children's chance to live a life that is safe, that is decent,

where they have their own basic choices and they survive. And I think to be able to escape, you're not talking about huge amounts of money to escape. You're talking about someone having enough that they think they can keep getting their kids to school that they can afford a ticket to get out of wherever they are, that they can buy some food that's not a huge amount services like Refuge are there for people, we run safe houses people can

run to, we run community services if they want to try and stay or they've got somewhere else safe to be but they need support to navigate the legal system, the family courts social services, GPs, everything that they may need in their lives having experienced abuse. But we are desperately underfunded. This sector has been desperately, desperately underfunded. There's lots of evidence and statistics there saying the women's sector and these kinds of

services are one of the poorest areas in terms of funding. And I don't think we can keep ignoring that. We're 50% of the population. One in four women will be affected in their lifetime. Two women a week are dying. Those figures will go up. They haven't shifted since refuge started 50 years ago with the very first safe house anywhere in the world. And they're not going to shift unless we shift funding and priorities. So it's a difficult decision. I wouldn't want to be an MP or the Prime Minister but I think we have to keep saying this is not good enough and the money has to come from somewhere. There's always that argument as well is that are numbers of domestic abuse going up or is

it that victims now feel like they have more support or are more empowered to talk about it I think it's that I actually don't think it's going up. I just think that now there is more people around to support and talk about it. But then I personally wouldn't know from the outside perspective. What do you think about on the inside? Do you think it is that numbers of domestic abuse is going up? I think it's really hard to say definitively, even for an organisation like Refuge, who has such a large set of data on this. I think the reality is, yeah, we are talking about it a little bit more and people are recognizing it certain forms of domestic abuse are obviously growing exponentially like tech

facilitated abuse as tech becomes more and more part of our life but my instinct is the same as you this is rooted in misogyny misogyny and patriarchy are part of the uk's culture they're shameful they've always been here. It's not shifted. And therefore, this has always been happening. It manifests in different ways. It's been called different things. We associate domestic abuse with physical violence because we're used to the conversation you used to have around battered wives and, you know, black eyes and broken bones. But the reality is this has been going on in all sorts of forms for a very long time. And I think the fact that there is more conversation is positive. But ultimately,

conversation changes nothing. Promises from the police change nothing. The government saying this is now a national threat changes nothing. We've got to see the action, the funding and the real change on the ground. What would be the piece of advice? Well, what would you say to anyone that is a potential victim that's unsure about what to do in their situation? If you are not sure that everything is right in your relationship, if your partner seems to control you, gets easily angry, you feel that you're walking on eggshells, if they seem to know things that you can't understand how they know them, or if they are isolating you from your family and friends these are some of the very common early red flags never mind if they are threatening you or forcing you to do things sexually that you don't want to do I would say contact us if you don't have anyone else to contact contact us you can call the National Domestic Abuse Helpline and

you've already said you'll put the number up. We will listen to you. We will believe you. And we will speak to you about what you can do in that situation. I think, unfortunately, one of the most pervasive forms of domestic abuse and one of the most worrying is the gaslighting element, the undermining of your own confidence. So if it feels like your brain is in a fog and you're just not sure what is happening to you and whether what you're even perceiving is real, we can talk with you, listen to what's going on and help you work through it so that you are really clear on what your choices are and you can be empowered to take back control of your own life. We're not going to do it for you, you will do it yourself, but we would love to help you and stand alongside you and be the support that you need and deserve. Because of my public profile,

a lot of the followers I do have are particularly young women. So women that are between the ages of 13 and 30. A lot of the things I am seeing is because there aren't, because of the lack of education and conversation around healthy relationships, there are things that when I was younger were deemed normal in a relationship that I now see as abusive

and that I'm struggling to be able to educate other young people as abusive. For example, I did a TikTok along, I stitched a refuge TikTok about how tracking your partner on find an iPhone is technically a form of abuse and isn't love. But it's very hard to be able to outreach out to young people. I guess the kind of the point I'm trying to get to is that how do you help people see that things? How do you help

people see unhealthy behaviors as unhealthy instead of as a form of modern love? Yeah, it's a really good question. And I think at its worst, that lends to people saying, well, why didn't she leave? You know, she should have seen what was happening. But the reality is when you're in an abusive situation, it can be really hard to see what's going on, particularly because your abuser will isolate you from others, from people who have different perspectives, and because they will gaslight you and undermine your own internal narrative and understanding of what's happening. So I would say if you have friends that you're worried about, never close the door. Try and just consistently let them know that you're there for them. They may not want to hear you when you say,

that seems like a red flag to me. They may not want to acknowledge that, may not be ready, they may not agree with you. It may not be ready they may not agree with you it may not be safe for them to agree with you but I think just saying you know if you ever want to talk I'm always here I love you I'm your friend that's the most important thing carrying the phone number you may not need the National Domestic Abuse Helpline yourself but putting it into your phone in case someone does take that moment to disclose to you or tells you that they're not sure that everything is okay after all that's really important and then more widely these kinds of conversations are so helpful just getting it out there that some of these things that you may be just accepting as normal

are actually quite concerning and just normalizing a conversation around that amongst friends not not shying away from this it's a difficult topic I think it's great that you're covering it um but not not shying away because it is difficult actually leaning into it a little bit and having some chats around this is stuff I did think was part of love and actually now I realize it really wasn't you never know if that's going to be part of a light bulb moment for someone I think one of the things that I find really challenging about covering these conversations is that it can be really difficult for people to hear. But I do think it's really important to, I know conversations don't necessarily have the biggest impact. But if the right person hears the right message, it might make them think or see things differently or realize that there is somebody out there that does believe them and will listen and is willing to help them so I guess that's the

whole the whole purpose of why I talk want to talk about these things so I tend to always lean into the final question about successes and failures as women but I think that obviously the kind of topic we've discussed I think it's really important to kind of highlight a little bit more but I will kind of want to know what you would say to people that really deny that misogyny influences and the impact of misogyny online has on real life women. Yeah, I understand why people don't want to accept that that is a really significant issue. We talked earlier about the disconnect between the online and the real world. And I think a lot of people still think the real world

is the only world that matters. And you can just turn off the internet, even though we're seeing the horrendous impacts on young people of bullying and kind of the content that they're exposed to. You said earlier that it's the algorithms driving it. And I think that's what's so dangerous. If you stumble across this content

and happen to watch it, you will then get more and more advertised and you can find yourself down a terrifying rabbit hole and I think there are not enough counterbalancing positive conversations and they don't make money for the platforms frankly so even if they are there they won't get the same traction as much as I'd love this podcast to get the same kind of traction as the misogyny hate spreaders it won won't. And I think normalizing everyday sexism, normalizing everyday othering of women, normalizing demeaning women or any form of kind of patriarchal assertions, just day to day, small things, the coverage that we talked about the murders in Epsom, the coverage of Nicola Bulley's tragic disappearance and death, you know, know we just accept these we don't even notice them and it's that invisible

influence that is so so dangerous because it creates an environment in which a police officer can take a photograph with the dead body of a female victim and share it on a whatsapp group because that's something that earns him bragging rights it creates an environment where i shouldn't just talk about police but you know a police officer can perpetrate abuse for up to 20 years with seeming impunity using his power to kind of protect himself from those crimes and for abusers who exist to exert power and control who get joy and glee from exerting power and control over their victims it creates an environment in which it's so much easier to do that and I think that is fundamentally the root cause of why domestic abuse is still so prevalent in our society today. I just want to say thank you for coming on my

podcast and talking about something that's a really difficult topic to talk about and I'm hope I'm hopeful that you know our conversation has been even if it's helpful to one person it would definitely be worth having that conversation and I think it's relevant to keep the conversation open for other people as well so they can have that conversation and dialect about healthy relationships in their own homes as well so thank you so much for coming on but also thank you so much for everything you do and everything that Refuge does as well. Likewise, we are delighted to work with you and I'm really grateful you had me on and you've taken the time to have this conversation on International Women's Day rather than all the other many conversations you could have had with incredible, inspiring women.

Thank you. Hi, I'm Richard Karn and you may have seen me on TV talking about the world's number one expandable garden hose. Well, the brand new Pocket Hose Copperhead with Pocket Pivot is here, and it's a total game changer. Old-fashioned hoses get kinks and creases at the spigot, but the Copperhead's Pocket Pivot swivels 360 degrees for full water flow and freedom to water with ease all around your home. When you're all done, this rust-proof anti-burst hose shrinks back down to pocket size for effortless handling and tidy storage. Plus, your super light

and ultra durable pocket hose copperhead is backed with a 10-year warranty. What could be better than that? I'll tell you what, an exciting exclusive offer just for you. For a limited time, you can get a free pocket pivot and their 10-pattern sprayer

with the purchase of any size copperhead hose. Just text WATER to 64000. That's WATER to 64000 for your two free gifts with purchase. W-A-T-E-R to 64000. By texting 64000, you agree to receive recurring automated marketing messages from Pocket Hose. Message and data rates may apply. No purchase required. Terms apply. Available at pockethose.com slash terms.