Girls Know Nothing - S2 Ep9: Thames Valley Police - Women In Policing & VAWG

Episode Date: April 5, 2023

Welcome back to Girls Know Nothing! 🧡 GKN is a female focused podcast hosted by  @SharonNJGaffka ! New episodes of Girls Know Nothing 🧡 will be released every Wednesday, and will also be available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and wherever you get your podcast fixes! GKN Social Channels: Https://linktr.ee/girlsknownothing  Instagram: @girlsknownothingpod  Tiktok: @girlsknownothingpod TikTok: @girlsknownothingh

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With Indeed Sponsored Jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates, so you can reach the people you want faster. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non-sponsored jobs. Don't wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get-K-A-T-Z 13. Just go to Indeed.com slash P-O-D-K-A-T-Z 13 right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. I think when I was young, you know, you always have kids that are like, oh, I want to be a police officer when I grow up. I always wanted to be a dog handler because I love dogs, but the way I look after my dog i'd be too soft like that dog

probably get overweight and just not be as strict as they're really scary our police dogs yeah they don't want to go anywhere near them but like i just know that i'd want to cuddle it and you can't do that with a police dog so evidently that that career we do have a very nice well-being dog. We do, he's very fluffy and lovely. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Know Nothing. For those that have been following me personally on social media, it will have known that I've been working with Thames Valley Police for almost a year now and what a fitting way to celebrate that anniversary to not just have one but have two serving officers in my studio today. Katie Burragrant is a Chief Superintendent in Thames Valley Police and is the most senior female police officer with almost 20 years of experience in the police force. Katie also has

an academic interest in domestic abuse completing her master's at Warwick Business School and has written on domestic abuse rates in the criminal justice system. Katie is currently the strategic lead for violence against women and girls across the force. We also have Amy Howard who is a detective sergeant in Thames Valley Police. In the new rape and sexual offences team, a team of detectives dedicated to improving the outcomes for survivors of rape and sexual offences. Amy also has 20 years of experience and is focused on improving the services for victims and has also just received her long service medal. Welcome to the studio, guys. That was a very long introduction, isn't it?

Trying to get both of your achievements in. Feels it. You feel it as long as your career your career so you don't look old enough to have worked in the police force for 20 years so thank you good battery gets you everywhere guys um so it probably wouldn't get me out of trouble if i ever was in one no absolutely no i tried i tried um do you know what actually one thing that I found really surprising when I started working with Thames Valley Police on like social content and learning a bit more about what you guys as a force do is the amount of women that have approached me randomly to be like I love this because I want

to join the police and I get more of an insight into what you do. I think the weirdest one that's stuck in my memory is at six o'clock in the morning and Costa drive-thru like the girl that worked there she was in college still stuck her head out the window and was like I really want to be a police officer and I was like okay I really want my coffee that's great um so I think it's really nice to like actually have like to know that there is like people watching and are like now inspired by their future career choices based off like what we've done together um but what inspired your kind of decision to want to become police officers or join the force either one of you guys you know so my mum would always say it was actually the murder of jill dando she said that happened when i was a teenager and um she says i was quite affected by that i

don't really remember it but then I went to university and studied sociology and criminology and I started studying girl gangs and why women got involved in gang activity and that just piqued my interest in policing and criminology and then I saw an advert for the police and applied and here i am so no policing in my no policing history in my background in my family or anything so i'm the first i'm probably the polar opposite yeah so there's police in history my family my uncle grandfather um and for me it's for from when i was thinking about what job i was going to do it was always the police i always wanted to be in the police either that or a teacher the work experience in both and the

police one um yeah just something I've always wanted to do so from university that was where I went to after that is it the children that put you off teaching I did quite like the children and then I've gone on to work in child abuse so I think maybe it's there as well you know um but yeah it's just always been in me wanting to to do the job that I do and I love it I always find it really interesting hearing the reasons as to why people join the force because everybody I've always spoken to is they have a relation right so so like for me it's really um interesting to hear you your side as if you've seen like a case and that it kind of inspired you um what would you have said the

biggest challenges were for you as female officers joining the force I didn't find being a female officer in the force a challenge and I haven't found that a challenge I've never felt it as a barrier or an issue and I've always felt really supported um so I think just the general challenges for me are the same as male and females I don't think they're different for me it's just a lot around public perception I think you know we're responsible for an awful lot but also we're not responsible for an awful lot and the criminal justice system gets anything that goes wrong tends to be directed towards the police and actually there's a much bigger you know circle of people that that form that system so for me that's the

bit i find the hardest challenge i think you're right that kind of resilience and knowing that you're going to go out there day after day and do your best for victims for your community yet still be reading in the paper on social media things that have gone wrong um and worrying about how people trust you or think that you'll do the right thing um when actually that's integral to our values and what you know our personal values is that we're there to to help people to to make the world a better place um and i think that's you're right that is probably the most difficult thing um is having that resilience to keep going and keep doing a good job I think it's one thing that's probably

really hard is with public perception is that they don't separate the person from the uniform they see everybody as one uniform when actually every police force yeah is so different yeah um what was this is always a question I want to ask people that ever work in any form of like uniform um but what is like the worst thing that you've ever had like you've ever witnessed or come across in your time as a police officer I think this is a really difficult question to answer because it's it's different for everybody and there will be days when you go and deal with something that you think it hasn't affected you and then you know you'll wake up in the night thinking about whatever that job was and I've got a number of those that come and haunt me every now and again because I think you know

could we have done something different how could we have saved that person that child um I think like Amy you know much of my career has been as a detective and I was a child abuse investigation detective at the very beginning of my career. And I think that was almost the best and the worst job, because you pick up the pieces of a child that's been quite often sexually abused, and you save that child's life. And you put people in prison for life for doing that kind of awful, awful criminal offenses. But yet that can still kind of sit with you for the rest of your rest of your life really I've got my own children now and you know sometimes it's really hard to to kind of separate the two and you think of things and you just think oh how you know I don't know if I could

do it anymore um at that level having family of my own so I think there's always those times that at the time you might not think that it's going to affect you but it will come back and haunt you later on. Yeah similar my my most recent experience has been working in child abuse before going on to this new department um and it's the job that has been the most rewarding um but equally the most heartbreaking and um for me it's the job that I I know I made a difference you know that that and I'll always take that with me so when you're struggling with what you might have been dealing with you can go home and think I know I made a difference to that that child's life um and I think in the wider context the the jobs that I've always found the hardest are the the

suicides that we attend and dealing with the families. Those are tough. Yeah. How do you guys compartmentalise, you know, your job and your work that you do? I think for me, I'm two people almost. I think there's work Amy and there's home Amy. And everyone knows I'm quite a sensitive soul and they're very surprised by the work that I do and how I deal with it. But that's how I see myself. I see, you know, what I do at work is what I do at work.

And then I go home and I'm at home. And I think you have to learn to think through, you know, personally in your own life, how you deal with some of this. So I run. And for me, that's the only time I'm on my own. Don't have to talk to anybody. Let my thoughts run. Get some fresh air. And that absolutely me um deal with whatever it is I've been thinking about and then think through the plan of what I'm going to do next and how to carry on and

keep going yeah earlier you said about um you know having a family of your own now probably makes you look at the way you do things differently do you find that the work you do does impact your personal life in some way yeah I think you know with having children um you can't help but think you know when things happen you just don't want that to happen to you or you know whether it's an accident or you know so I think you do become a little bit more cautious um in in things and and friends and family may not always understand that you know why you're behaving in a certain way or why you're saying no they can't do that um and I think it's just what happens yeah you manage can know and you manage risk differently yes um and you know who

I choose to look after my children what I let them do will be very different to some of my friends and that's fine but that's just because of what you've seen or dealt with and your your levels of sensitivity are different so yeah I can I can imagine actually I think I mean it's not quite the same level but my family my mum was raised in a naval family so she's very very strict and that impacted what I was able to do so I can imagine that that's the same with with your children especially well the information you guys probably look at um you know that there's when we talk about violence against women and girls and and things like that sometimes we do see that a lot of people do come forward and report things but it doesn't necessarily get taken on it further down

the criminal justice system and you know what can we see what can be done more to help the cps take on more cases i think the first thing is you know we know that many people don't report at all ever so so we're not actually um understanding exactly how much um violence against women and girls there is or indeed any crime really because there is under reporting but specifically around offenses that affect women and girls more significantly um and then it's uh it you know it's difficult to investigate violence against women and girls it's difficult to investigate rape cases which amy and colleagues do day in day out um but but that doesn't mean we we don't try our best you know we are absolutely there for the victim um and we're absolutely there to investigate and make sure that we cover all angles of the investigation but then there are criminal

thresholds that we have to reach in terms of taking a case further down into the court processes so you have to make sure you've got the right evidence you have to make sure it's at the right level and I'm sure we're going to talk about what kind of things that looks like but um the the reporting to the police is the first step in what is quite a long um and protracted investigation um and there are many steps that we have to go through but you deal with it day in day out don't you amy um reporting is is the main the main thing. I think if someone chooses to report that something has happened to them, the sooner they can report it to us, the more likely we are to be able to capture the evidence we need to take that case through to court. Whether that's forensic evidence or CCTV or finding witnesses, the later it is reported to us, the harder or more difficult it is to get that evidence and the evidence may have gone. So if people can report as soon as they feel strong enough and able to, the sooner they can, the more likely it is we're going to

be able to get that evidence that's needed to take the case through to court. That doesn't mean if we've got late reports or historic reports that we can't take those cases to court it just means it's um a little bit harder to build the picture but that doesn't mean we won't we'll certainly do our best to try to do that what do you guys think like the barriers to reporting like what stops people wanting to come forward a lack of understanding i think is probably huge about what the process is, how long it takes. And I think how long it takes is probably one of the biggest hurdles to overcome or the biggest barrier. Because once people hear about how long it can take, if they decide to report and it could be months, it could be a year, it could be more than a year to get through to the end. They feel that perhaps they can't deal with it for that length of time um and i think that's a

big barrier to people reporting it to us um there's there are an awful lot of support services there available um to victims of these crimes that we will refer them to that the the sark will refer them to um through the court process as there's even more support there there's there are a lot of support services um so I'd encourage people that if they aren't feeling able to report just to remember that we can provide a lot of support I know it's one of the most horrific crimes that you know could be committed against somebody and and the trauma and the you know the way they've got to experience what's happened to them and in it stays with them while that you

know investigation is ongoing is really really hard but there is a lot of support out there i think it's also i mean we're talking about um rape offenses here that the support that you get for a serious sexual assault or sexual assault sorry or a rape but i also think there is probably a lack of reporting or lack of understanding that you can report things like flashing or a simple you know cat calling harassment in the street because what we're finding is particularly with flashing that's a a crime type that very often will lead to further criminal activity further sexual offending it's like a precursor initial crime that some often will lead to further criminal activity, further sexual offending. It's like a precursor initial crime that some men will do. And I think the more that people recognize that that's not all right

and that you should report that, the better really, because that starts as allowing to look at individuals and where these things are happening, intelligence around them, that kind of thing. So I would encourage not only if you feel able to report when you've been raped or sexually assaulted, but if you're flashed, come and tell us. Please tell us as much as you can. Yeah, I think it's one of those things as well that I would never have. I mean, if I got flashed in the street, I'd probably be like, that's horrible. And it would stick with me in some way, but I would never consider reporting

because I feel like it's not worth reporting or it's a waste of police time or like you've got better things to be dealing with and it wasn't really until I'd actually sat down and spoke to police officers were actually like no people that have gone on to commit more serious offenses started off by doing smaller things and it makes me realize that even the tiniest little bit like I do have some responsibility to try and stop that before it gets bigger and it's quite scary to know that like a little thing gets bigger and bigger eventually but how do you guys go about navigating like how do you guys navigate gathering evidence without potentially re-traumatizing the people that you're helping to like look after the way

we approach it is when we are um dealing with our victims we have a process that we follow um but it's you know every victim in every case is different um but we try to not um ask that victim to have to keep repeating what has happened um so we will ask them an initial account um so we know exactly what we're dealing with when it was who it was etc and then we go on to obtain um their their evidence if you like whether that's in a written statement format or on a visually recorded interview um and in that interview is where we try to get as much of the information as possible and be as detailed as possible so that we have got that evidence and we don't need to keep going back over it again and

again um and it's only if through our inquiries and there's you know any sort of discrepancies or anything we just need to to clear up that we'd have to ask them again so it's not something we try to keep asking them to repeat um we have If the case goes to court, we have things called special measures, which a court can grant. So if a victim provides their evidence by visually recorded interview, that means that they don't have to stand up in court and repeat it. If it's a written statement, then they will be led through their evidence but that video would get played in court so the victim wouldn't have to say it again that's really important i think in not re-traumatizing the victim um that's the main way i think in which we try to do it try to not get them having to repeat it time after time after time

so i guess in that case in your opinion why do you think it is that rape or sexual offence cases tend to have low prosecutions compared to other offences? They're difficult cases to prosecute. With child offences, they're less difficult, I guess, if you like. Consent isn't usually an issue in child cases. But there's three main points that we need to prove, you know, we need to prove that the victim didn't consent, that the victim didn't have capacity to consent, and that the suspect didn't reasonably believe that they consented. So those are the three things we have to prove. And that can be quite difficult. So that's why we need to look

at not just the accounts of the victim and the suspect but at the bigger picture around the suspect's behavior leading up to the uh the incident cctv evidence um forensic evidence that's why it's really important to build up the bigger picture um that's probably why i think the cases are just hard to prosecute i did get a lot i do get a lot of frequent questions from um people that do follow me on social media about these kinds of offenses and support that forces can give um one question i'm always asked time and time again is that whether victims of rape or sexual offenses get given um they've asked me an STO but you've like explained to me off camera that it's um a solo um so uh sorry what was it again the sexual offence liaison

officer yeah so if every victim is assigned someone specific to talk to throughout their their time um so we we have a team of solos in thames valley police um there's we've got obviously quite a high workload and not um a huge team um they work really really hard so we have to um there's certain criteria but effectively if you've reported a rape um we're within forensic time scales um you have a solar allocated to you from the very beginning um if you've reported a rape that's happened in the last year you'll have a seller allocated to you so there very beginning. If you've reported a rape that's happened in the last year, you'll have a solo allocated to you. So there is that level of support from the outset. If they are more historic cases, you'll still have contact from a solo. They'll make sure that you understand the investigation process, that you have any support in place that you need.

They'll make any referrals for support, but they're less involved in that case so so yes is the answer but just at different uh degrees obviously we've we've touched on it briefly about how the media can impact public perception when it comes to policing um and unfortunately we have seen a lot of cases recently where there are officers that are found to have history or have been abusive to their partners in some way I guess if for me as like as a young woman that's probably could be considered a barrier to wanting to report to the police you know what are the consequences for officers that are found to have history of abuse towards their partners or are found to be abusing their partners well first of all it's disgraceful and we all know that there are um individuals across the country who've been highlighted recently around what we classify as police perpetrated domestic abuse um and um the casey report has just come out last week around culture in the metropolitan

police so it's you know people are talking about it a lot and i think it's right that we should um i do not want anybody working in the police service uh that is a domestic abuser that commits sexual offenses you wouldn't want that um and we've got to do everything we can to root out those individuals and make sure they're not part of our police service now or in the future. There's a number of things that are going on. One is around vetting. So every police officer is being re-vetted currently across the country, not just in Thames Valley Police,

to make sure that there are no issues in their history that would prevent them from being a police officer. And we have a professional standards department who deal with all concerns and complaints around police officers and actually they are looking at not only standards but also criminal offences and what we have done here in Thames Valley is we've created a new team within that professional standards department who are focusing on police perpetrated domestic abuse they have history in dealing with domestic offenses from domestic abuse teams and we're

really clear that if we get any reports they will absolutely be investigated thoroughly and we will do everything we can to root out those individuals that cause harm you know I probably can't reassure you enough but as the lead for violence against women and girls the perpetrator focus is so important and that's out in the communities but also internally as well i do not want anybody working with us who has that kind of history or was committing that kind of abuse yeah I think um one of the things as well this is like a question that I've always thought about obviously you spoke about briefly about the Casey report and about culture um this is a debate that I actually had

with my parents about you know potentially whistleblowing obviously other officers do see officers behavior they probably know it's not right but then how can they feel more comfortable to call it out and not have it impact their career yeah yeah a really important question and we talk about three things when we're talking about violence against women and girls in policing at the moment trust and confidence is the first one perpetrator focus is the second and the third is safer streets so when you look at trust and confidence for me that can be split into the internal trust and confidence within the organization and the external trust and confidence of the public in our communities and if you look at the internal trust and confidence

that is about how you create a culture where there are active bystanders so people do call it out do step up do you know say that's not acceptable but also that we create a culture where individuals feel that they can do that at every single level so whether it's just a comment that's made that you nip in the bud there and then or you know a senior officer or a supervisor says something that you just think that is just not right we've got the ability as an organization to say that's okay to call that out and say that that's not acceptable so we're doing all sorts in in thames valley police where all of our supervisors are engaged in something called healthy team culture training because we want to make sure people have the skills to be able to lead their teams and have those kind of conversations. And we're also making sure that we invest in our staff really understanding, you know,

what has gone on, what the Casey report says, what violence against women and girls strategy says. It's ingrained within our organisation now. Violence against women and girls is a central tenet of our strategy. Our chief constable is adamant that we will do everything we can and us you know as part of that organization are doing everything we can to eradicate that and that starts internally that starts from within yeah i think um it's i think it's really nice to actually because you don't hear about the the positive things that sometimes the police are looking to do internally to kind of change or shift the narrative about the rotten apple um so I think it's it's probably more reassuring for me personally and probably

anyone that's listening that to know that there are forces out there that are trying to do things that are really good and I know that Thames Valley Police are very proactive in their approach to violence against women and girls I was really fortunate to be on a night shift as part of Project Vigilant that's kind of like where our relationship started and I think it was a massive eye-opener to know that there are you know you guys are trained on things that I would never even think of and that you are actively looking for it as opposed to just you know waiting for something to happen and then dealing with it then. How did Project Vigilant start? So Project Vigilant started actually in 2019 so before there was the kind of national recognition around violence against women and girls we recognised that there

was an increase in sexual violence in the night-time economy in Oxford so around the night-time you know pubs and clubs big student vibrant city and we'd start to see a rise in sexual offences and rapes and we weren't happy about that so a group of people started to consider how can we do something different here and this is not about focusing on the victim this is about focusing on the offender the perpetrator so project vigilant was set up and project vigilant is where we use officers who are plain clothes and officers who are in uniform out together in the nighttime economy. And we train them up. So they have got extra training around behaviors.

And behaviors that they are looking for are those that perpetrators of sexual violence will use. So I can't actually go into the detail of what we train them or how we train them. But they have had extra kind of behavioral analytical training and they'll go out in the nighttime economy and they'll be around in the streets and you won't see them because they're in plain clothes and you'll see a uniformed officers as normal wandering around um and they will pick out the people that they think are a concern so you know you and i might say there's a there's a weirdo just stood on the street corner he's a bit iffy we're not going to walk that way we're going to and and so you have that kind of general feelings about people sometimes don't you but our officers will pick out that person but also other people

that they'll watch and go they're um you know following every girl that comes out they are they're just doing things that are not quite right um and our uniformed officers will be called in to intervene and they will stop check that person. They will check their details. And what we found scarily is 20% or one in five individuals that we stop has got some sort of sexual offending history. They've either been arrested for a sexual offence or they've got some sort of domestic abuse in their background. So they are out there and they are there to actively perpetrate um and what we've done is put vigilant out in oxford we've now spread it to all towns and our cities in thames valley and we're seeing reductions in that kind of nighttime

economy sexual violence um and what's brilliant is that it's being seen as national good practice so there's a lot of money that's being invested by the college of policing to review what we're doing with a view to sharing it nationally so that you know wherever you go out on a night out in whatever town across the country you can be reassured that there are there are police officers out there watching watching out for you there's a question i did get actually when i first shared my experience of being part of project vigilant or witnessing project vigilant is thatilant is that we've had some cases where plain clothed officers or officers that should be in uniform having stopped people. And I think that was a major concern for some of the women that follow me on social media.

They ask, you know, how do I know that they are part of Project Vigilant and they're not just stopping me yeah because they're plain clothed it's am i correct in saying that a plain clothed officer will never intervene unless it's on project vigilant you're absolutely right so our plain clothes officers are out of sight and they won't intervene it is our uniformed officers that will come in and we'll deal with it i mean this stems back from um the awful murder of sarah everard um by, I don't want to say his name, the individual from the Metropolitan Police who used his warrant card wasn't on duty, was in plain clothes. That doesn't happen in Project Vigilant. But just to reassure people, you can if you get stopped by a police officer, they should always show you their warrant card and you are always able to contact 999 or 101 and verify who they are and if they don't let you do that then you know shout and call for help we would always say if you're if you'll stop by me if you'll stop by a mail doesn't matter check check that their warrant card is there check

which force they're from and you are absolutely able to to call in if you were in a situation where you felt immediately in danger obviously we've seen advice from people where you've been asked to flag down a bus for example what would you say to do if you felt like you were in immediate danger and ringing in wasn't an option yeah i mean officers should have their warrant card they should have a radio if they're out and about on duty, and you can ask them to speak to control room. You know, there may be a reason that you're being arrested, because there's maybe suspicion of a criminal offence. And clearly, there is the law that allows us to arrest individuals, whether you're a man or a woman, depending on what the circumstances are. I think if you're really worried and the officer is not letting you call in 999 or 101 or speak to the control room on the radio with them, then for me that is problematic.

And I do think you need to ask for help if you can. Ask somebody else for help. Ask other individuals to call 999 on your behalf if that's an opportunity um to do so so i i would hope that that there will never be that kind of experience i think it's very very rare um but but i do think if you are so uncomfortable and you just think this is not right then you you you have to do what you need to do to order to get some help and just check out what's going on i think it's um it's really nice to know that there are proactive measures in place when it comes to policing but obviously amy you mentioned earlier about victim

support and i think that people don't really realize and i was one of those people because i grew up in the thames valley jurisdiction and i never knew that sexual assault referral centers existed or ways that victims could get support and I've been very unfortunate in the sense that I know people that have been assaulted and probably would have benefited knowing that those support systems existed um you know when I first visited the SARC I was it's really weird to say pleasantly surprised because my only experience of the Sark outside of conversations with you guys or the force in general is TV dramas where

it looks like a woman is basically on a butcher's table and it's just loads of uniformed officers everywhere. And it's very clinical and it's very scary and I remember watching it thinking I would never want to put myself in that situation had I been assaulted because you would feel like you're being assaulted again how different is the Sark and the support the victims get in real life different to media quite different I think is probably the answer to that if anyone has to go to a SARC we know that's going to be a really really difficult experience for them no matter what the SARC looks like or how it is um so there are people trained at the SARC the right people there who know um will do their very best to reassure and comfort people that are there. We have the crisis workers there and then the nurse or the doctor,

depending on who's called out. There's a point where we're trying to capture evidence as well, forensically. So there are certain processes that have to be followed, which may seem very clinical in a sense, but that's not the overarching idea of the SAR SARC is that it's a support service there to enable victims to have any forensic evidence captured to be referred to the right support services whether that's through counselling or sexual health so it is pretty different I think it's just a difficult experience no matter how it appears

though I think yeah I think um obviously when I was there I learned about it from the crisis workers perspective and what they do but I they're obviously not in a position to tell me about what it's like on your side and how you guys come in so you know um I did get to see the forensic room how they collate evidence. And it was really important that they reiterated that it doesn't necessarily 100% guarantee that you're going to report to the police if you don't want to. But even if you don't want to report to the police, like what's the time, what's the best way or best timing for me to be able to go to the SARC after assault? It's back to my probably the very first answer I gave is if you feel able as soon as possible, you know, that's where we can capture the best forensic evidence. And even if you choose at that point not to then report it to the police, that evidence has been captured.

The SARC will keep hold of that for two years. So you have a period of two years before they get to the point where they need to then um you know have destroy it um so as soon as possible is is the answer but we know it's it's not always that easy um there's no cut off you know if you need to report it report it um but as soon as possible obviously there is an element of forensic evidence when it comes to um any sort of sexual offense but obviously the forensic evidence can give so much it can prove that sexual activity took place but not necessarily that it was unconsensual um and i think one thing you always hear about a lot even in like tv dramas i know i hate referring back to tv dramas when it comes to policing because

they're so different but i think one people are always conscious of like what other forms of evidence can be taken to help prove your case when it comes to the criminal route of a sexual offence there's so much really you know um there's CCTV evidence there's witness accounts whether that's friends of or people who may not even be friends of people that have been around the victim that have been around the suspect and There's digital evidence on mobile phones, computers, tablets, around any possible conversations that have been had around locations, that kind of thing. House to house inquiries, ring doorbell, you know, there's all sorts of other evidence, because as you say, forensic evidence doesn't always prove the case. If the suspects admits that there was sexual activity, that may not assist us in proving the offense.

So we always have to look at the whole picture, not just forensics, that's just one strand of it. I think people are always conscious of whether police use mobile phones as all like mobile phone activity as part of the investigation. what is the likelihood that that is part of it with the amount of um contact people have nowadays and you know the use of mobile phones for by all sorts of means whether it's social media whatsapp text messages emails

um it's quite likely that there may be evidence that's relevant to the offense whether that's been where the person's been before or conversations they've had or something they've said afterwards so it's it's quite likely that we may find evidence on um digital devices whether that's the victims or the suspects um but to take a victim's mobile phone is such a big thing you know generally all our lives are on our mobile phones now so to say i'm going to take it you know you'd be kind of lost with i don't know anyone's number i can't so we um we aim that if we really do need to take the victim's mobile phone obviously we only do it if the victim is willing to pass us the phone and we try to make sure we return it within 24 hours.

We'll book it in on a particular date and time that works for the victim so they can sort of plan ahead that they're not going to have the phone that day. We can offer a replacement handset in that period if they need it. And to reassure people, we don't go through everything on the phone. We specifically look for the information that either from the victim or elsewhere we think is relevant to the offence it's not just to have a look through everyone's conversations if if the victim says that there's been a whatsapp conversation between um her and and him or her of the suspect that's the only thing we're looking for we're not looking at everything else so just to reassure, it's not a phishing exercise. It's specifically looking for what evidence we think is on there.

When we talk about the suspect, for example, well, when we talk about the suspect, I know that in quite a lot of cases of sexual offences, quite a lot of the time, the victim may know the perpetrator or the suspect.

And I think that it does cause a bit of a barrier in terms of reporting because then you don't want to upset the people around you and then get pressured into like you know peer pressure in general what actually happens to the suspect when it goes through the criminal proceedings so the suspect would be arrested as soon as possible and that would always be our aim again to try and capture that early evidence so we don't lose any evidence. You know, victims may go through the forensic process themselves. That can also happen with suspects when they're in custody.

They can have swabs and samples taken. They will have their phone looked at. The process, we will do as much as we can in relation to securing evidence from the suspect to be as least intrusive on the victim as we can. So if we think there's something on the suspect's phone, maybe we can just take it from the suspect's phone and don't need the victim's phone. Everything can seem to happen quite quickly at the very beginning, with arrests being made, with perhaps forensic and detective searches at the very beginning with arrests being made with perhaps forensic and detective searches at the scene of the incident, evidence being secured by whatever means. In some cases

we would seek to keep the suspect in custody, we'd be contacting the Crown Prosecution Service and seeking to charge and remand the suspect in certain cases in the majority of cases the suspect would be bailed to allow all the other inquiries to be done around digital forensic evidence and so on and liaising with the Crown Prosecution Service and that's the point where it can feel like it I think it slows down a little bit you know there's that initial flurry of activity and contact and then when samples are submitted for analysis and phones are being downloaded it slows down and it takes some time and we'd endeavour to put bail conditions in place to try to protect the victim from any contact from the suspect, keep the victim

regularly updated on what's happening on the progress of the investigation. The Crown Prosecution Service if a case gets submitted to them they will also write a letter to the victim to let them know that the case is now with them and they're reviewing it so it should be lots of regular updates um although it can feel like it slows down at points but that's like normal so it's not just that the case has gone cold it's just no it's it's you know it takes time for the inquiries to come back you know when things are submitted it takes time to come back um the officers will often seek advice from the crown prosecution service at an early stage and agree

what further inquiries need to be done to build that case um it's completely normal um it's just it takes it can take some time to get everything completed. How does the SARC support Thames Valley Police in terms of its reportings and criminal routes? We've got a very close working relationship. We've got two SARCs in Thames Valley and we do use other SARCs out of force if necessary. We have regular meetings with them so we understand any issues any barriers that they have and we can try and address those um but they're they're really important in building the trust and confidence i think with our victims that um if they're not ready to report or even if they are ready to report either way

that there is somewhere they can go where they can have the right support put in place for them they can have their evidence captured there and then um and that can work towards if they feel they want to report it building a case against the suspect if i ever if i ever wanted to report any form of sexual offense what is the best route for me to do that? You've got a variety of options, ways you can report it. You can ring 101 and make the report that way if you want to report directly to the police. Obviously go by the SARC route that we've discussed. We've also got online reporting now.

Some victims find it hard to talk about initially, so we now have online reporting, which can be specifically for sexual offences. So people may feel more able to write it down initially, know they've made that step, and then we will contact them to discuss it further. If any offence is reported to the police, we will facilitate the SARC process. So it's not, you know, neither or, you know, we will make sure that happens as part of the investigation um they're just sort of two different routes into reporting i um i really

wanted to know actually a little bit more about like the recruitment side of policing i know that for me i went to an all-girls school and i didn't feel like there was a lot of conversation about um recruitment for female officers obviously um the police have to represent the people that they they serve right so you know what would be bits of advice that you could give to young women that are listening that want to join the police force well i would say yeah the public of the police and the police of the public absolutely that's that's key um i think it's a brilliant job we have um nearly 50 50 percent in terms of our recruitment now women to men um there are loads of opportunities there is nothing to stop you whether you're male or female in terms of the roles that you can do so you know we have women

on our firearms teams we have women who are running public order events i'm a strategic firearms commander um so i'm there you know running firearms operations running public order events. I'm a strategic firearms commander. So I'm there, you know, running firearms operations, running public order operations. You can be a detective, you can be on the horses, you can be on the helicopter, you can be on response. There is such a plethora of roles. And, you know, it doesn't really matter what you want to do. You can have a whole career doing a variety of different things, which

is what I love about it so much. And you get to, you get to see the best and the worst of society and you get to help people in their time of need. And, you know, people will always come to us for help. And that's what we're here for. Yeah, I think for me, I remembered this when we were talking when I was at school, a female police officer came into school. She was our school's liaison officer. officer and she was my like that's who I want to be you know I think as people meet people along the way um they think actually yeah I could I could do that and I think if it's something that people are interested in just go for it it's it is an amazing career I think when I was young you know you always have kids that are like oh I want to be a police officer when I grow up I always wanted to be a dog handler because I love dogs but the way i look after my dog i'd be too soft like that dog

probably get overweight and just not be as strict as they're really scary our police dogs yeah they don't want to go anywhere near them but like i just know that i'd want to cuddle it and you can't do that with a police dog so evidently that that career we do have a very nice well-being dog who's very fluffy and lovely but you can't join the force for a well-being dog no no that would be that would go down like a sack of spuds in the interview I've heard you've got a well-being dog so that's why I'm here but um no I think it's um I actually think it's really nice that I got to speak to both of you because again like I felt like there wasn't that many female officers in my time when I was at school

so I didn't have that person to be like that's who I want to be when I grow up and I think that was a shame because you know I had a really big interest in law and it could have been a route that I ended up down if I had potentially had that contact when I was younger so hopefully like people listening to your experiences and seeing like the amazing work that you guys do as officers has helped inspire them um i actually always ask people the final question about um people that doubt people's successes based on the fact they're women but what would you say to um people that doubt your success is based on the fact you're long-term serving police officers and women's police officers what would I say I think you know

throughout policing over the last 20 years well 23 years I've been in the police there have been some really inspirational women leaders and there are some real and when I say leaders I don't just mean at the top you know police officers at all ranks leading their communities through traumatic terrible times i don't think it matters whether you're a man or a woman um i think if you want to do it come and join us come and see what it's like come and be a special constable if you don't want to to do it um full-time come on a ride along come and be a volunteer come and test the waters um and i think you know you can't doubt people on the basis of their gender. You doubt them on the basis of their performance. And you see fabulous women doing fabulous work day in, day out.

And that should be enough. Yeah, no, I agree. I think it's about the person. And for any job that we attend, whether they're male or female officer that attends it's the person you're going to remember how they dealt with you how they responded to you how if they were empathetic or not it's not the gender it's the person judge them on that and i would actually definitely recommend the ride along or like observing because i think that was like one of the most eye-opening experiences i've ever had to do though the blues and twos probably did

not do well for my car sickness so again probably another reason why I'd make a terrible police officer but honestly thank you both so much well not just for being on my podcast in the studio but for everything you do in in your job like I know it's it's not easy but obviously we wouldn't be able to put these people behind bars if it wasn't people like you so i really appreciate everything you do thank you yeah i really wanted to be a dog handler because i love german shepherds but i how i look after my dog there is no way that i could look after a police dog yeah you can could if you make that as a role please hit me up you can have the the german the german shepherds as a baby we'll sign you up the police you have to be a volunteer yeah please volunteer you just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday how can you find amazing candidates fast easy

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