Global News Podcast - Bonus: The Global Story - Canada, India, and their diplomatic death spiral

Episode Date: October 27, 2024

Your weekly bonus episode from The Global Story podcast.Canada and India are locked in a fierce diplomatic row, after Canadian prime minister Justin Trudeau doubled down on allegations that senior Indian officials were involved in the murder of a Sikh activist in Canada.The Global Story brings you trusted insights from BBC journalists worldwide, one big story every weekday, making sense of the news with our experts around the world.For more, go to bbcworldservice.com/globalstory or search for The Global Story wherever you got this podcast.

Hello, this is the Global News podcast from the BBC World Service. I'm Alex Ritzen with your weekly bonus from the Global Story, which brings you a single story with depth and insight from the BBC's best journalists. There's a new episode every weekday – just search for the Global Story wherever you get your pods and be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a single episode. Here's my colleague Katrina Perry. Today, the escalating tensions between India and Canada over the assassination of a Sikh activist on Canadian soil. The past year has seen a rapid deterioration of relations between the one-time allies, fuelled by unprecedented displays of public hostility.

We will never tolerate the involvement of a foreign government threatening and killing Canadian citizens on Canadian soil. Canadian authorities say representatives of the Indian government conspired with an organised crime group to target its citizens. And the tit-for-tat expulsions which have followed have seen the most senior envoys of both nations depart their positions. But with India yet to face meaningful consequences, is the country deliberately leveraging its strategic importance and are Western leaders taking a risk by leaving these attacks unanswered?

And are Western leaders taking a risk by leaving these attacks unanswered? So with me today are the BBC's South Asia correspondent, Samir Hussain. Hi Samir. Hi there. And our diplomatic correspondent, James Landale. Hi James. Hi. Now Samir, you are a correspondent based in India, but you're also Canadian, so you're the perfect guest to talk about this story. There are lots of complicated elements to it really, but of course the headline moment was the murder of a Sikh separatist on Canadian soil last year. Tell us what happened.

Last year, Hardeep Singh Najjar was shot outside a Sikh temple in BC, in British Columbia, in the western part of Canada. He was an outspoken critic of the Indian government and an advocate for Khalistan, which is an independent state for Sikhs in India. It's a movement that actually the Indian government has been very, very critical of. Six months after that shooting, Prime Minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau stood up in Parliament to say that his intelligence agencies in Canada were investigating these real credible allegations of links between Nijard's murder and agents of the Indian government. Over the past number of weeks, Canadian security

agencies have been actively pursuing credible allegations of a potential link between agents of the government of India and the killing of a Canadian citizen, Hardeep Singh Nijar. And James, since that moment, diplomatic relations obviously had been worsening, but they hit a what many would call a new low last week. Yeah, that's right. had been worsening, but they hit a what many would call a new low last week. Yeah, that's right. I mean, initially, when Mr Trudeau stood up and made his allegations last year, obviously, there was a massive row between India and Canada on this. Some diplomats were withdrawn, visas became harder to get.

But since last week, when there have been even more developments, those relations between India and Canada, which were already pretty chilly, are now deep in Since last week, when there have been even more developments, those relations between India and Canada, which were already pretty chilly, are now deep in the deep freeze. Canada says that it formally declared six Indian diplomats to be persona non grata. That is disputed by the Indians who say that, no, no, we withdrew them because these six people were named as being persons of interest by the police in their investigations. And as a result, the Indians have also expelled six Canadian diplomats from India as well. And Samira, do the Canadians have evidence for what they're alleging here?

When all of this happened, we saw that the RCMP, that's the Canadian National Police Force, they held an unprecedented news conference on a Monday and it was actually a public holiday in Canada. But they felt so compelled to take this information to the public. And what they said is that they had actual evidence of Indian diplomats being involved in criminal activity on Canadian soil. And we're talking about things like extortion, violent acts, and even homicide. And they even pinpointed links to organized crime in Canada and in India.

Jamie, diplomatic relations between countries, I mean, the way of sort of calling someone to account is to expel the diplomats, isn't it? And tell them that they're not welcome. We see that happening in all kinds of countries all around the world but is there something a little different to what's going on here? Yes, because this is between two democracies and between two countries that are ostensibly allies. I mean I was talking to a Canadian diplomat about this a couple of days ago who said that he really really struggled to think of a single time when Canada had expelled six diplomats.

He said there might have been some Russian case sometime, but he simply couldn't think of a precedent. So this is incredibly unusual. It reflects the scale of the fury felt within the Canadian government about this, because from their point of view, they see this as an astonishing breach of their own sovereignty. They are absolutely furious. And as a response, the Indian High Commissioner to Canada, since he's been expelled, has been all over Indian media,

publicly reinforcing his position. You yourself are a person of interest in the murder of Hardeep Nijar. Did you have anything to do with his murder? Nothing at all. No evidence presented. Politically motivated. Not a shred of evidence has been shared with us. Please show me the evidence. Making astonishing allegations that somehow, Kalistani extremists in Canada are also agents of the Canadian intelligence service. So there's all manner of allegations sort of, you know, doing the rounds. So we're at the stage of this dispute where both sides are bad mouthing each

other very, very vociferously. Okay. So let's go back to sort of the background to this, Samira. We keep hearing about Sikh separatism. What does that actually mean? So it's a movement that is advocating for an independent state for Sikhs called Khalistan within India. The movement right now has little to no support in India, but it really lives on strong in the diaspora community in Canada, of course, but also in other countries, including the United States, the UK, and in Australia. Now, in Canada in particular, the Sikh population is really important. It actually represents a little more than 2% of the entire Canadian population.

It's the largest number of Sikhs outside of India. The pro-Khalistan supporters have even held referendums in different countries. And of course, it's a non-binding vote, but overwhelmingly, of course, they voted in favour of establishing this separate state. And the cause has quite a controversial history in India, really. India is not a country under the current government that really takes to any kinds of critical points of view or any kind of dissent. If you look at the way India is operating right now, there's a real large crackdown

on any kind of descent. To see this kind of separatist movement operating so freely in another country is something that the Indian government does not take kindly to. But you're right Katrina, it does have a very violent history. The Khalistan movement really reached its peak in the 1980s. In 1984, Indian forces stormed the holiest site in Sikhism, the Golden Temple. It was called Operation Blue Star and it was really meant to root out any Sikh separatists that were potentially hiding out in that Golden Temple. Of course, that came with a lot of criticism. People died in that operation. And lots of people in the Sikh community in India were very angry. Well, fast forward

four months later after that incident, India's Prime Minister Indira Gandhi was assassinated by her Sikh bodyguards in retaliation for that Operation Blue Star. And that just started riots right around India and thousands of people were killed. The death toll since Mrs. Gandhi's assassination has been jumping by hundreds. It now stands at over a thousand, but there's no guarantee that's correct. The presence of the army with orders to shoot on sight appears to be having a restraining influence. But outbreaks are still occurring and the Sikhs complain bitterly that not enough is being done to protect them. And then a year after that Operation Blue Star, in 1985, Sikh separatists bombed an

Air India flight, killing all 329 passengers on board. And it was the worst terror attack in Canadian history. And just as a sidebar, as someone who is part of the Indian community in Canada growing up, I can still clearly remember when that happened and the ripple of phone calls, no internet at that time. So it was actual telephone calls when people were being called within the Indian community to alert them to this disaster. It was a significant moment for the Indian community in Canada, but of course for all Canadians. James, these are allegations of course, but if they are true, why might India feel the

need to target separatists outside of India if, as we've been talking about there, the movement has largely been abandoned in the country? Well, I think as Samira was alluding to, there has been a violent past. And, you know, clearly if the Indian government wants to diminish the capability of what they see as a terrorist organisation, they might feel motivated to take action in that regard. If you talk to diplomats about this, they say that this whole issue of sort of extra territorial action stroke homicide is something that goes in ebbs and flows. If you remember, the Saudis murdered a journalist in Turkey called Mr. Khashoggi.

And there were many countries who looked upon that and thought, oh, if the Saudis can sort of get away with that, maybe we can. I know a lot of people look to Mossad and the way that it has carried out extrajudicial killings outside of the territory of Israel in recent years. There are precedents for this sort of thing happening and it is possible that some within the Indian system maybe felt this was something that could be looked at. And

there's also just the politics of this. The Indian government at the moment is one of a very nationalistic bent, and it doesn't take kindly to any kind of external threat. And if you are a nationalist and you are a populist, dealing with external threats is often a raison d'etre. I think if you look at the view from within India, there's certainly a lot of those elements sort of looking at other countries like Saudi Arabia, like the United States that has also done these extrajudicial killings. Of course, everyone will point to Osama bin Laden, for example. Tonight, I can report to the American people and to the world that the United States has

conducted an operation that killed Osama bin Laden, the leader of Al-Qaeda, and a terrorist who's responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent men, women, and children. So for Indians, this is yet another example of double standards that are being applied to what they would call the global south, that, oh, it's okay for Western countries to do things like this, but it's not okay for Indians if we were even to accept that this was something that happened, which they are completely denying. But when you see these pictures of protests that are happening in Canada, in the United States, and in the UK,

you'll see these pro-Khalistan protests. And you'll see them burning the Indian flag. Now desecrating the Indian flag in any way is illegal in India, so you cannot even let it touch the ground. For people who are living in India and they see these pictures happening, for them, there's quite a visceral reaction, which is why I think you're seeing also in Indian media just so much support for the Indian position. LESLIE KENDRICK And James, is there not a huge diplomatic risk to doing something like

that if that is what happened? JAMES HENRY Huge, because although, yes, the United States has conducted extrajudicial killings, this tends not to be one democracy on another. Quite often those extrajudicial killings take place in fragile states, states where state control is pretty limited. If you think about it, Justin Trudeau and Mr. Modi regularly attend summits together where they shake hands together, they stand on panels together. That is why people are scratching their heads actually,

because they're wondering if this is what happened, why did the Indians take the scale of the risk? Is it they felt they could get away with it? Is it a projection of power? It could also be that they just think, you know, we're bigger and better and stronger than Canada and we can take the flag. We can roll with the punches on this. Because what is interesting is that when Mr Trudeau first

made the allegations last summer, you might imagine that one option for the Indian government will be to sort of play the whole thing down, try and resolve it, you know, diminish the row. Actually, the activities of the diplomats and others, allegedly, has actually increased substantially in tempo since that moment. So there hasn't been any attempt by the Indian government to play this down according to the Canadian version of events. So we've looked at the origins of this rapid diplomatic deterioration. Next, why Canada's allies are reluctant to back them. This is The Global Story. We bring you one big international story in detail, five days a week. Follow or subscribe wherever you listen.

With me are BBC correspondents Samira Hussain and James Landale. Samira, Canada hasn't been the only country to experience attacks on Sikh separatists. There have also been high profile incidents in both the US and the UK. Well, as if what is happening between India and Canada wasn't enough to add to this story. Just last week, we saw that the United States accused an Indian intelligence officer of plotting to assassinate Gurbhatwad Singh Bannoon. He's an American and Canadian citizen and he's also a pro-Khalistan supporter. Now remember, this is happening at the same time this very public battle between India and Canada is happening. Now India said that, look, that

accused Yogesh Yadav no longer works for the Indian government. He's also the second person to be arrested in that thwarted assassination attempt. There's still the ongoing case against Nikhil Gupta who was arrested and then extradited to the United States and he was being accused of trying to hire an assassin. What the United States is saying is that he was trying to hire an assassin based on the orders of this former intelligence officer. The plot thickens and I think what's really interesting and James can certainly talk about this just if you compare the Canadian case and the American case and both likely using the same kind of intelligence, there's a real significant difference in how India

is looking at what's happening in the United States versus what is happening in Canada. Yeah, that's absolutely right. The United States is a very powerful country. India does not want to be at odds with it. Canada is a much smaller country. And therefore, the Indian response to the American allegations has been much more sort of much more cautious. They've taken the allegations seriously. They've set up a sort of high level inquiry to deal with it. I think some Indian officials have already come to Washington to engage in that process. In other words, the Indians have been much more cautious, whereas when it comes to Canada, the diplomatic and political dogs have been unleashed and are all over the Indian media criticising the Canadians. The problem

is that the two cases are connected. The American judicial system is cooperating very closely with the Canadian judicial system on this. This is not now just a diplomatic issue to be resolved at some point. This is now a judicial process. And judicial processes are far, far harder to control diplomatically. I think what's also interesting is that although Canada and the United States are in close proximity, their judicial systems are also very, very different. So in the United States, for example, you saw that this indictment was unsealed and we were able to get more details on the investigation. The Indians will constantly criticize Canada saying that, look, we're

not getting enough details in terms of what exactly the allegations are. That's actually because the judicial system in Canada is very different. The only way to see some of that concrete evidence is when it's released in court and you're not going to get that unless it's released in a court of law. Canada has a common law system similar to that in the UK. There was also some criticism last year about Indian authorities releasing what was kind of described I guess as a hit list of Sikh separatists within the diaspora. And that is something that pro-Khalistani members would say in Canada is that look, India has identified people that they do not want to be speaking out anymore. And this has been

something that has been going on for a long time. In fact, even before the murder of Mr. Nijar last year, we saw that Indians in Canada were already very fearful of the reach of the Indian government and Canadian intelligence said that they were already investigating before they were led to that particular incident. And James, on the cases in the US and Canada, I mean, there have been those allegations on the court process that's in train now, the the US prosecutors but the government has been far less vocal. The Government of India at the senior most levels they have told us that they are taking the allegations seriously, that the activities contained in the DOJ

indictment do not represent government policies. When it comes to the Canadian matter we have made clear that the allegations are extremely serious and we have wanted to see India take them seriously and cooperate with Canada's investigation if they have chosen an alternate path. Do you think would Canada have expected more full-throated backing from Western allies, particularly the United States, given that they're all members of the Five Eyes Intelligence Alliance? Look, I think the Canadians are realistic. As a general rule in diplomacy, you don't get involved

in each other's bilateral disputes. In other words, you don't take sides, you don't join in, because it tends not to help anybody. So I don't think Canada will be feeling too hard done by that the entire West hasn't piled in behind it, because they totally understand that India is a key player in the global system now. It's an important ally. The Canadians don't want to have a bad relationship with India. They would far rather this hasn't happened,

but they're having to make a priority of their own national interest and sovereignty ahead of a good relationship with India. When I talk to Canadian diplomats about this and say, look, could you have had more support? They're actually relatively happy. They say, I mean, you know, the UK put out a statement this week in which the Foreign Office said very explicitly that the UK had full confidence in Canada's judicial system. Well, that challenges India's position.

And then it says this, the government of India's cooperation with Canada's legal process is the right next step. In other words, so the British are being pretty robust there and saying there is a process, India must now play its part. Oh, and by the way, we think respect for sovereignty matters. So, you know, from the British point of view, I think they would consider that's reasonably robust. How delicate are relationships between Western governments and India. I mean, we're seeing even this week, the BRICS meeting, President Putin in Russia playing host to the various leaders. What we're seeing at the moment is a, and this is a long-term trend,

a kind of sort of breakdown in the idea of Western hegemony running the world, and more and more countries flexing their own muscles, forming their own partnerships on an ad hoc basis on different issues. And India has an ambition to be seen as a leader of the so-called global South. As India begins its G20 presidency this year, it is natural that our aim is to amplify the voice of the global South. Three-fourths of humanity lives in our countries. We should

also have equivalent voice. India is seen as a strategic bulwark against China, and China is the big player that everybody's concerned about in the future. But equally, there's lots of concern, particularly in Europe, the fact that India has really, really struggled to say anything of support to Ukraine. And whenever you talk to Indian officials, diplomats about that, they say, well, look, you guys didn't care when we had our own territorial disputes with Pakistan or with the Chinese on our own borders. Why should we care about another European country's territorial concerns?

So India is a country that for diplomatic, strategic and economic reasons, all countries in the West have a reason to have a good relationship. The trouble is the current government of India makes that quite difficult at times because there is quite often a clash of values with economic necessity. So Samira, let's go back to the case at the centre of this. Where are we now in terms of legal consequences for the killing of Mijar? So four men have been arrested in connection with that killing, but the case has been adjourned multiple times.

The last we heard that it was actually going to go to the courts at the beginning of November, but you know, it's up in the air whether that is actually going to go through. We know Justin Trudeau at the moment is quite unpopular domestically to put it mildly, but this issue does seem to have cross party support. Will the process and these allegations outlive him? It's interesting in speaking with diplomats in India, there's a real sense that, look, this is all Justin Trudeau's doing and you very much see that in the messaging that India is putting out, that this is all on Justin Trudeau and this issue is going to go away

if and when Trudeau is out of office. But on a national scale, when you're talking about extrajudicial killings happening on Canadian soil, I think the Indians perhaps may be underestimating how much of an issue it's going to be in the next government whenever that election happens. And James, Canada is not one of the global superpowers. It has limited influence when it stands alone. How much does its relationship with India matter to Canada and to its future? Look, I think Canada, like any country, cannot afford to have poor relations with big players around the world and therefore they

want this to be not something that damages relations permanently. But at the moment, they're both locked into something where they are getting down to hard tacks of fundamentals. For the Canadians, this is all about sovereignty. And from the Indians, it is what they consider to be absolutely terrible allegations that they reject categorically, with both sides with their backs against the walls on this. There's not that much place for them to manoeuvre. Look at the realities. Next year, the Canadians are hosting the G7 Summit. As a rule, Mr Modi tends to get invited to these things. Is he going to come and shake Mr Trudeau's hand or whoever is in government? At the moment, I think probably not. And the difficulty is that countries have to deal with one another. They have to engage with one another on a bilateral basis, whether it comes to trade, whether it comes to dealing with consular

matters. On that sort of level, the business, cultural, that sort of relationship, that sort of thing tends to survive these things. But I think for now, you know, these relations are in the deep freeze and they're going to stay in the deep freeze for a while. James, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, if you look specifically at some of the diplomats on either side, you'll see that actually people that are involved in economic issues and trade remain in their countries. And unlike the dispute the last time this flared up, you don't see that visas are no longer being issued in Canada to travel to India. To me that's really interesting that you see this like massive diplomatic fight and it's probably the worst we've ever seen it, but they haven't gone so far as to try and break economic or those consular ties.

The art and the challenge of diplomatic relations, they're fascinating chatting to you both. Thanks so much for your reporting on this, James and Samira. My pleasure. Thank you so much. Thanks so much. If you want to get in touch, please do. You can email us at theglobalstoryatbbc.com or you can send us a message or a voice note on WhatsApp. You can find those details in our show notes. Wherever you're

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