Global News Podcast - Diplomacy gathers pace over war in Ukraine

Episode Date: February 16, 2025

US officials head to Saudia Arabia for talks with Russia on the war in Ukraine - but European leaders are not invited. Hundreds of people gather at Alexei Navalny's grave on the anniversary of his death.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. When a body is discovered 10 miles out to sea, it sparks a mind-blowing police investigation. There's a man living in the Icedress in the name of a deceased. He's one of the most wanted men in the world. This isn't really happening. Officers are finding large sums of money. It's a tale of murder, skullduggery and international intrigue. So who really is he? I'm Sam Mullins and this is Sea of Lies from CBC's Uncovered. Available now.

You're listening to the Global News Podcast from the BBC World Service. Hello I'm Oliver Conway. This edition is published in the early hours of Monday, the 17th of February. US officials are preparing for talks with Russia over Ukraine, while the Europeans are set to hold a meeting of their own in Paris. The Israeli Prime Minister says he's working to make President Trump's plan for the future of Gaza a reality. And the Democratic Republic of Congo says Rwanda is ignoring calls for a ceasefire

after M23 rebels seized the city of Bukavu. Also in the podcast, a year on from the death of Alexei Navalny in an Arctic prison, a defiant message from his widow. Even now, a year after his death, Putin is trying to erase Alexei's name from our memory, to hide the truth about his murder. But he will not succeed. And? I tell the employees all the time, as long as you stay out of trouble, you're not going to have any trouble. As long as they don't get drunk driving or stealing or anything

like that. What do American farmers think about plans to deport undocumented migrants. The coming days could be crucial in shaping negotiations over the war in Ukraine. US officials are due in Saudi Arabia for talks with the Russians. Ukraine says it hasn't been invited, nor have the Europeans, who hold an emergency summit of their own in Paris. The speed with which President Trump has upended the old consensus on European security was underlined by the US Special Envoy on Ukraine, Keith Kellogg, when asked who would be involved

in talks on ending the war. Can you assure this audience that Ukrainians will be at the table and Europeans will be at the table? The answer to that last question, just as you framed it, the answer is no. The answer to the earlier part of that question is yes. Of course the Ukrainians are going to be at the table. The British Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, says the meeting in France on Monday is an opportunity to reset Europe's security arrangements.

Here's our Europe editor, Katja Adler. Stunned and horrified at being sidelined by the US, the leaders of France, the UK and the defence alliance NATO are amongst those scrambling to this emergency summit in an attempt to force a place at the negotiating table. For Europe, this isn't just about Ukraine. The parameters of the Russia-US talks and how emboldened President Putin may feel after them could end up reshaping Europe's security infrastructure to Moscow's advantage.

Western neighbours of Russia, particularly the tiny former Soviet Baltic states, feel hugely exposed. Sir Kirstama noted that this was a once-in-a-generation moment for our national security, where we needed to engage in the reality of the world today. He and other leaders in Europe face their own domestic economic pressures, but the majority now feel forced to discuss concrete plans to shore up European security, with or without the US defence umbrella this continent has relied on since the Second World War. The possibility of sending troops to Ukraine will also be discussed in Paris.

What their mission statement would be, how big a force and under whose command are major questions that have to be answered. Katja Adler, the starkest rendering of the new US approach to Europe came in a speech by the American Vice President JD Vance to the Munich Security Conference. That event is now over, but the Europeans have been left reeling as we heard from our chief international correspondent Lise Doucet. Luxury German cars pulling away from the entrance of the elegant Bayer Ischerhof Hotel here in Munich. As this conference comes to a close, it's snowing and there's a chill in the air. And that's not just the freezing temperature. Everyone I've spoken to has described this year's conference

as truly historic, the darkest moment in the history of what's known here as the transatlantic relationship. In the minds of European leaders and the Ukrainians attending this conference, it's now in tatters. As President Trump's team pushes forward with an approach to resolving world crises, including ending the war in Ukraine, that leaves the Europeans and the Ukrainians out in the cold. So I've been asking delegates here, what is the mood in Munich? I'm dizzy. I've heard so many different expressions of US plans for Ukraine. I've heard Americans

say such directly critical things of Europeans. It doesn't feel like any Munich Security Conference I've ever been to. It's a very gloomy mood in Munich. Munich was head spinning for me. I think this was probably one of the biggest moments of inflection in Europe since February 2022. So great is the concern here among European leaders that the European foreign policy chief, Kai Hallas,

has convened a meeting of the European ministers here to discuss ways forward. And they're just coming out of that meeting and here's Estonia's foreign minister, Marges Sakna. You've got a smile on your face, but there's no denying there is deep concern among European leaders now. Yeah, but things are more clear.

It's better than nothing. And what is clear as well that Europe must stand up. We need to decide what are the next steps to give Ukraine the opportunity to decide what will happen. And this is about, of course, the ideas about ending the war in Ukraine and making sure any peace deal sticks and that Russia doesn't invade again. But what is at stake for Europe? At stake for Europe is actually that Putin has not changed the main goal.

And this is not about Ukraine territory. It's about destroying Ukraine and also pushing NATO back to the situation it was in 1997. So we need to understand what kind of resources we have and decide to use them. This moment, not just that the Munich Security Conference is ending, but it seems a whole new chapter for Europe is beginning. Our chief international correspondent Lise Doucet. Well of course, Ukraine is not the only conflict that President Trump has been voicing his opinions on recently. His suggestion that Palestinians should be moved out of Gaza led to fears the ceasefire there could collapse. The Israeli Prime Minister on

Sunday again expressed his strong backing for the idea which the Palestinians and Arab nations have firmly rejected. Benjamin Netanyahu was speaking after talks with the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio in Jerusalem. The president has been very bold about his view of what the future for Gaza should be. Not the same tired ideas of the past. It may have shocked and Rubio in Jerusalem. I've said and I'm going to repeat it again, President Trump is the greatest friend that Israel has ever had in the White House. I have no doubt that working together, America and Israel will overcome the challenges and seize the opportunities. Mr Netanyahu is sending negotiators to Egypt on Monday to discuss the quote continued implementation

of the first phase of the Gaza ceasefire, while his security cabinet will meet to consider the second phase. Tom Bateman is travelling with the US Secretary of State and had this assessment of the joint news conference in Jerusalem with the Israeli Prime Minister. Well, I thought it was particularly striking that after what was a more than three-hour long discussion between Mr Netanyahu and Marco Rubio that the language the Israeli Prime Minister used absolutely echoed that of Donald Trump. He talked about the gates of hell opening if Hamas didn't release all of the hostages. Now this has been a line

almost word for word that Mr Trump has used when he gave that very dramatic ultimatum earlier in the last week, that if all the hostages weren't released and he gave a noon Saturday deadline then there would be hell to pay or all hell would break loose. He said now that obviously didn't happen, all the hostages weren't released. It was the process, the current ceasefire hostage release process that was ultimately stuck to. Mr. Trump effectively took that as a negotiating win, that he believed he had got the process back on track after Hamas, in his view, threatened to derail it. But we're now seeing this very, very strong rhetoric from both the Israeli leader and

the American president. So the question then is raised, is this a change of tack from the Israelis and the Americans to try to effectively redraw the current phased ceasefire and hostage release process, or is this simply rhetoric to sort of dial up the pressure on Hamas? And I think we have to wait to see what comes out of what you just mentioned, Mr. Netanyahu saying that, you know, he's engaging in talks around the first phase of the process itself now and whether they will really stick to the desire to move forward to a second phase. Yeah. And where are Arab nations in all this?

Well, what we have seen over the last week, particularly with a visit by King Abdullah of Jordan to Washington, is I think the Arab nations scrambling to try to come up with their own version of a plan for the future of Gaza. And that is because, as you say, Donald Trump has said that he wants the US to take possession of Gaza after its Palestinian population has been emptied from the Gaza Strip and given no right to return. And I mean, a move that would clearly breach international law in the Fourth Geneva Convention. And I think the Arab nations are now, who receive significant amounts of money, Jordan

and Egypt, in terms of financial and military aid from the Americans, scrambling really to come up with their own version of a plan for the future of Gaza to present as an alternative to Mr. Trump's plan. And we have heard Marco Rubio say that his justification for Mr. Trump's plan is it puts the onus on Arab countries to come up with their version to effectively pay and to even provide security forces to establish a future for Gaza. But what all of this does is really create a vacuum of any strategic future for Gaza that is both viable and internationally accepted. And I think that is why the current ceasefire and

hostage release process in terms of its end goal is in quite serious jeopardy now. Tom Bateman in Jerusalem. The Democratic Republic of Congo says Rwanda is ignoring calls for a ceasefire after M23 rebels, who it backs, seized a major city in eastern Congo. The Congolese communication minister said Rwanda was violating the DRC's territorial integrity and insisted the government was working to restore order in the city of Bukavu. Richard Kigoy reports from Nairobi. Tensions arising in eastern DRC as M23 rebels backed by Rwanda expand their hold on key cities. Authorities in Kinshasa say they are closely monitoring the security situation

in South Kivu, nearly a thousand miles away. On Sunday, Rwandan Bagh forces entered Bukavu without resistance, marking the farthest territorial gains since the insurgency began three years ago. Residents have been urged to stay indoors, fearing attacks by occupying forces. The conflict has drawn international condemnation. The African Union is warning against the potential break-up of the DLC, calling for the immediate withdrawal of M23 fighters. UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres is urging dialogue saying, a regional war must be avoided. Rwanda continues to deny any military involvement. Richard Kigai, Bukavu is the second city taken by the rebels on the Congolese-Rwandan border in a matter of weeks.

A resident in Bukavu told us when he first became aware of the M23's presence in the city. We have been aware of the coming of the rebels early this morning because when they enter the city they have held their first meeting at the independence place down in Bukavu city and this has really officially announced their presence in the town. And would you say that they now control the whole of Bukavu or is there maybe still some resistance from government troops? There is no resistance from the national army, there is no resistance because when they came to the city the ground was somehow empty and they could really move around the city the way they could, as much as they could.

Were people pleased to see them? I mean we've heard cheering by some residents. Of course, the people, the civilians down in Bukavu, some of them are really happy with their presence because the time they came they have been warmly welcomed. Let me say that before their presence in the city there was some kind of vandalism because shops, stalls have been vandalised, especially the weather food program shop. So you say that there was looting before the rebels arrived as people thought they were coming into the city and is that still going on the looting the vandalism so far there is no longer

looting there is no longer vandalism because when the rebels entered they have tried to maintain the security and for the moment people are relaxing and there is some kind of further some kind of security down the city so how would you describe the mood now in Bukavu? In case you happen to resist, to obey their laws, people are being killed down in Goma. We don't know if the same case won't be produced down in Bukavu. So we are still waiting to see what will happen later. As well as government troops, there were troops from Burundi helping to defend Bukavu. Have those

Burundian troops gone away now? All the troops from both countries, I mean the Burundian and the DRC troops, all of them have fled away. There was some kind of betrayal in the DRC army. That's why as a citizen, as a resident from Bukavu, they ask the DRC government to reshuffle all the national army because there are so many betrayers. All of us over here feel abandoned by the government. Betrayals. Do you mean by that deserters, soldiers who ran away? Really, it's a pity. It's a pity to see people run away. That's the case for our army. For the moment, there is no way to move out to shops because all the shops, all the stalls, all the markets,

all the supermarkets are closed. Bindings are still on the streets, though the rebels are in the city, some bind bands are still hidden in the streets. Who are these bandits you speak about? They are gunmen, we don't know where they came from, we don't know. We don't know civilians who have picked up guns which have been left by the government soldiers. I try to speak that these are people who benefited from the prison break because before the rebels came to Bukavu there was a prison break and people are trying to say that

probably these people who came from the prison break are the ones taking their guns to threaten the citizens. A resident of Bukavu. Hundreds of people gathered in Moscow on Sunday at the grave of the Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny, a year after his death in a prison in the Arctic. They marked the anniversary despite warnings from the Kremlin the authorities would be watching. His widow, Yulia Navalny, sent this message from exile. I am grateful to everyone who remembers Alexei, who talks about him, writes about him, who comes to the cemetery.

I'm grateful to those who've been supporting me this year. Your letters, your hugs. This is what stops me from forgetting why Alexei did this and why I'm doing this. Even now, a year after his death, Putin is trying to erase Alexei's name from our memory, to hide the truth about his murder. But he will not succeed. Our Russia editor Steve Rosenberg watched as people laid flowers at Alexei Navalny's grave. In Moscow, this was a day for remembering the Kremlin's fiercest critic. To the peeling of church bells, Russians filed through the gates of a cemetery on the edge

of the city. They'd come to honor Alexei in the Vailny, who died exactly one year ago in a remote penal colony and in suspicious circumstances. People laid flowers on his grave, a simple act, but one not without risk. For in Russia today, those the authorities suspect of sympathy for the late opposition leader are in danger of creating problems for themselves with the police and the courts. Those in power here seem to believe that even after his death, Mr. Navalny and his ideas of a democratic Russia are still a danger to them.

In and around the cemetery there were lots of police and security officers and individuals who were clearly not journalists but who were filming each face, every person visiting this grave. When they arrived there was applause for Alexei Lavalini's parents, Lyudmila and Anatoly. Mr. Navalny's mother said she wanted those who had murdered her son to be punished. I am sure, she added, that someday the truth will prevail. The Russian authorities deny that Alexei Navalny was killed and that they had anything to do with his death. As for his memory, the crowds at the cemetery show that

some Russians are trying to keep that alive. Our Russia editor, Steve Rosenberg. And still to come on the Global News podcast, the North Korean defector becoming a K-pop star. Where else can I go and have this experience? The world is spinning, it's moving, it's busy. And I feel like I'm part of it. And a relic believed to be a tooth of Buddha has returned to China after being displayed in a temple in Thailand.

When a body is discovered 10 miles out to sea, it sparks a mind-blowing police investigation. There's a man living in his address in the name of a deceased. He's one of the most wanted men in the world. This isn't really happening. Officers are finding large sums of money. It's a tale of murder, skullduggery and international intrigue. So who really is he? I'm Sam Mullins and this is Sea of Lies from CBC's Uncovered.

Available now. Austria's Interior Minister Gerhard Kanner has said a knife attack in the southern town of Vach on Saturday appears to have been linked to the Islamic State group. A 14-year-old boy was killed and three people are still being treated in hospital. The suspect is a 23-year-old Syrian asylum seeker. Our Vienna correspondent, Bethany Bell, reports. Mr Kana said the Syrian asylum seeker hadn't previously attracted the attention of the authorities.

He said the man, who had a valid residence permit and no criminal record, appears to have been radicalised online in a short space of time. Investigators had found an Islamic State flag in his apartment. The Syrian was arrested soon after the stabbings. Police say a delivery worker, also from Syria, stopped the attacker by driving his vehicle at him. Residents at the town of Filach have laid candles at the scene. The attack comes at a time of heated debates over asylum laws in Austria and a political crisis after a far-right party won September's election but was unable to form a coalition.

Bethany Bell. During last year's presidential campaign Donald Trump promised he would make it harder for undocumented migrants to remain in the United States. By the end of last month immigration and customs officers were arresting more than 700 migrants a day on average, more than double the figure from the last year of the Biden presidency. Planes have landed in India and Venezuela carrying hundreds of deportees. But what impact is all this having on American industries like farming? In some sectors, officials estimate that more than 40% of workers are undocumented migrants. This report from the newsroom's Stephanie Prentice.

One week in office, 10 executive orders. Donald Trump stuck to his pledge to make changes the minute he got into power. And immigration and removing undocumented migrants was in his crosshairs throughout his election campaign and has continued into current policy shifts. There's been a spike in arrests in states along the US-Mexico border like California and Texas and those with large Hispanic populations like Florida. But businesses throughout the US have expressed concern that a mass deportation of undocumented migrants could severely harm their industries, particularly the farming industry and especially

dairy farming, often described as a 24-hour job. Corey Hoffman is a dairy farmer in the state of Minnesota. He employs Hispanic migrant workers to milk his cows and says he relies on them. We milk 500 cows three times a day. We have eight Hispanics and they've been here anywhere from three years to almost 13 years now. And as far as how it's going to affect us, like I tell the employees all the time, as long as you stay out of trouble, you're not going to have any trouble. As long as they don't get drunk driving or stealing or anything like that.

I've been extremely happy. My employees, I feel, are essentially like family members. President Trump's administration has suggested his focus is on criminal migrants, though many fear this scope will be broadened. And on the ground, rumors abound, including one that homosexual migrants will be rounded up. Mercedes Falk is president of Puentes Bridges organization. It's a nonprofit which aims to bridge cultural and language gaps on farms. In a couple of the communities right around us, there has been rumors about ICE going

around in arm-marked vehicles, hanging out at Walmarts. We have found that that is not happening, that they are targeting specific individuals. So what we're trying to do as an organization is let people know what all their rights are and that official or individual cannot just arrest someone without having a specific order for their arrest. If employees were rounded up, she says the dairy industry would crumble. Estimates of the number of migrant workers currently on farms start at just over a million, with others much higher. One dairy farmer in the state of Wisconsin has said that if immigrants were prevented

from working in his sector, all Americans might have to become vegan. Stephanie Prentice. Korean pop music may have taken the world by storm, but it's banned in North Korea. Last year, a young man there was reportedly executed for watching and distributing South Korean music and film. But now a young defector called Yoo Hyuk has become the first North Korean member of a K-pop boy band,

which is due to make its debut in the US later this year. We heard more about him from Yoon Ah-Koo of the BBC Korean service. Yoo Hyuk is actually one of those 30,000 North Korean defectors right now living in South Korea. In this case, what makes him different is that he has been going through a very hard childhood when he was back in North Korea. His parents divorced when he was four, and then he lived with his father and grandmother,

but both of them were unable to work. So from the age of nine, he had to make his own living. I tried begging and I tried stealing. There was nothing left in the house. It was a crisis, like I was going to fall off a cliff. I could have died if I didn't do something. Like I was going to fall off a cliff. I could've died if I didn't do something. I'm half happy, half anxious now. Where else can I go and have this experience? The world is spinning, it's moving, it's busy.

And I feel like I'm part of it. His mom, after divorcing, she defected to South Korea earlier. And then she sent a Chinese broker to bring her son to South Korea as well. However, Yoo Hyuk wanted to live with his grandmother and his father. So first time he refused to go to South Korea. However, his mom sent broker for the second time. And this time, his father also persuaded Yoo Hyuk to follow the Broker. That was when he was 13.

Yoo Hyuk didn't set out to become a K-pop idol from the start. What really gave him comfort was writing poetry and lyrics because he had been through so much from a young age, unlike many other people. He had this innate fear of sharing his experience and feelings to other people in South Korea because he thought nobody would accept and resonate with his experience. Youn-okoo from the BBC Korean service. China has for decades practised panda diplomacy, lending pandas to zoos around the world. But what about relic diplomacy? Well,

Thailand has just returned a tooth believed to be from Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha. Our Asia Pacific editor, Jason Lee, has been looking at the story and he spoke to Rachel Wright. It's believed to be the tooth of Buddha. So it's, you know, considered very sacred among Buddhists. Just to disappoint you, there are many tooth of Buddha that's been claimed by multiple museums and temples. So this is just one of many. And it's originally housed in Lingguang Temple in Beijing in the Chinese capital.

Now, the Chinese government loaned this to Thailand in December to commemorate the birthday of the Thai King. It was also to mark the 50th anniversary of the official relationship between the two countries. Now while on display in Bangkok, in a temple in Bangkok, thousands of visitors came to see the artefact to pay their homage because Thailand is a very deeply Buddhist country, so they want to get a glimpse of this artefact. And as you mentioned, it was flown back to China after a ceremony which was attended by officials and monks.

Is there any certainty that this actually is the tooth from the Buddha or is it just belief? Well, it's, we don't have DNA, you know, result to really say if this is Buddha's tooth. I mean, this is what's believed by the Buddhists who follow the religion. And what benefit does China get from this sort of diplomacy? So China sees Southeast Asia sort of as its periphery and has been increasing its influence over the region over the past few years in direct competition with the traditional super power in the region, the United States, which has influence over it, although the US is located in North America.

And this has brought some positive impacts. China is the largest trading partner of Southeast Asia. It's also the largest investor in infrastructure in the region. But this has also led to tensions, most notably in the South China Sea, where Beijing has lots of territorial and maritime disputes. But unlike some of his neighbours who have these disputes with China, Thailand has a relatively stable relationship with China. So this loaning of the Buddhist who appears to be China using its cultural artefact as

a way of trying to bring one of its most prominent regional partners, Thailand, closer to its sphere of influence. J. Sung Lee talking to Rachel Wright. A lost work by the French sculptress Camille Claudel has sold at auction for more than three million dollars after being rediscovered by chance. The bronze titled The Mature Age was found in a Paris apartment that had been empty for 15 years. James Reid reports. Camille Claudel destroyed much of her work before her family confined her to a psychiatric hospital in 1913. This bronze had been lost for more than a century. The expert who found it said he was overcome with emotion when he lifted a dust sheet and recognised a masterpiece. The mature age is

widely interpreted as a representation of Claudel's doomed love affair with her fellow sculptor, Auguste Rodin. It's also an allegory of aging. There's been renewed interest in her work in recent decades, with books and films portraying her as a feminist icon whose genius was overlooked by contemporaries. James Reid. And that's all from us for now, but the Global News podcast will be back very soon. This edition was mixed by Riccardo McCarthy and produced by Stephanie Tillotson. Our editors, Karen Martin, I'm Oliver Conway.

Until next time, goodbye. When a body is discovered 10 miles out to sea, it sparks a mind blowing police investigation. There's a man living in this address in the name of a deceased. He's one of the most wanted men in the world. This isn't really happening. Officers are finding large sums of money. It's a tale of murder, skullduggery and international intrigue. So who really is he?

I'm Sam Mullins and this is Sea of Lies from CBC's Uncovered. Available now.