Global News Podcast - Dismay in Ukraine as Russia and US reset ties

Episode Date: February 19, 2025

US and Russia forge ahead with negotiations without Ukraine and reset ties. President Zelensky emphasizes the need to not be excluded from talks. Also: a special report from eastern Congo, and could we soon grow teeth?

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You're listening to the Global News podcast from the BBC World Service. Hello, I'm Oliver Conway. This edition is published in the early hours of Wednesday, the 19th of February. We'll have more reaction to the dramatic reset in relations between the US and Russia as they agree to press ahead with negotiations on the war in Ukraine despite excluding Kiev from their talks. Israelis learn the fate of the youngest hostages in Gaza. And a British couple arrested in Iran last month have been charged with spying. Also in the podcast? A bomb fell on the child, killing his parents. It was the M23 who dropped the bomb,

and I lost six members of my family. We have a special report from eastern Congo. And forget dentures, could we soon grow replacement teeth? But first, according to leaked intelligence from February 2022, Vladimir Putin believed his invasion forces could overthrow the Ukrainian government within three days. In the end, his troops were stopped at the gates of Kiev. But three years on, with hundreds of thousands dead on both sides, the Russian leader now

appears to have the upper hand after seemingly winning over Donald Trump. The first tangible sign of the new reality came in Saudi Arabia on Tuesday as the top Russian and American diplomats met in Riyadh. Our correspondent Tom Bateman was there. Here was the US, the biggest single backer and arms supplier of Ukraine, sitting down with its friends' enemy. Afterwards, the US delegation led led by Mr Rubio, described the discussions as up-beat. The Americans said they agreed four principles with the

Russians, maintaining talks between the delegations, restoring broader diplomatic ties, enabling teams to work on a path to end the war in Ukraine, and then what the US called historic economic and investment opportunities with Russia. But what of any concessions being demanded of Moscow? Mr Rubio wouldn't set any out to reporters after the meeting, saying only that it would be a matter for future talks. Mr Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, made clear European peacekeeping forces were out of the question. We explained today that the appearance of armed forces from the same NATO countries,

but under a different flag, under the flag of the European Union or under national flags, doesn't change anything in this regard. Of course, this is unacceptable to us. Pressed on why the US wasn't laying down conditions for Moscow in order to agree a durable peace, Mr Rubio said the two sides would only agree to ending the war on terms they were each happy with. But today's events have so far done little to allay the biggest fears in Ukraine of being forced to accept and enter the war on Russia's terms with the peace being carved up between

Moscow and Washington. Tom Bateman in Riyadh. Well, those Ukrainian fears of a sellout were articulated by the nation's leader, Vladimir Zelensky, who was on a visit to Turkey, which acted as a mediator early in the war. He again insisted his country had to be involved in any peace talks. We'll hear more on the official Ukrainian view in a moment, but first to people on the streets of Kiev. Honestly, I don't know what to think because Trump is very unpredictable.

Essentially, as long as there are no clear actions or specific demands or deadlines, I can't really form an opinion on this. I think that most likely certain territories will have to be conceded, at least for some time, to achieve peace. I think the priority in our country right now is to save as many lives as possible. But I know that even if there is a ceasefire now, Russia will try to attack our country again. And we don't know what the consequences of that will be in the future." The view from the Ukrainian capital. So what, if anything, can President Zelensky do to influence any settlement of the war? Here's our Ukraine correspondent, James Waterhouse. As two major powers discuss the future of his country elsewhere, in Turkey, a visibly

irritated President Zelensky highlighted what he saw as the flaws with his country's exclusion from this first stage of talks. In order for the war to end with a reliable and lasting peace, we must not make any mistakes. This is possible only when the negotiations are fair and Ukraine, America and the whole of Europe are represented at the negotiating table. Guarantees are developed with the participation of all who are really capable of giving them." Ukraine's leader said he would never legally recognise the territory Russia had seized and called for, in the likely absence of NATO membership, a strong Ukrainian military, possibly backed by foreign troops in a post-ceasefire

existence. For Dimko, a soldier we caught up with in Kiev, America's approach has been damaging to morale. Absolutely worried. We want to believe that President Donald Trump is also a wise man who takes his politics seriously and his deals seriously. Whatever would be decided in President Trump's head and whether it's gonna be with Ukraine or not, it's gonna make an enormous impact on Ukraine. Mr. Zelensky was scheduled to travel to Saudi Arabia after visiting his Turkish counterpart President Erdogan. But he said he had now postponed the trip so not to add legitimacy to the early negotiations to which he was not

invited. James Waterhouse in the Ukrainian capital. Well just before we came into the studio, President Trump said he would probably meet Vladimir Putin before the end of the month. In a wide-ranging news conference at Mar-a-Lago, he also said he was disappointed by complaints, presumably from Ukraine and Europe, of being frozen out of the talks. I think I have the power to end this war and I think it's going very well. But today I heard, oh well we weren't invited. Well you've been there for three years, you should have ended it three years, you should have never started it, you could have made a deal. I could have made a deal for Ukraine that would have given them almost all of the land, everything, almost all of the land, and no people would have been killed and no city would have been

demolished and not one dome would have been knocked down. So what should we make of the US-Russia meeting in Saudi Arabia? The BBC's Luke Jones spoke to Olga Ivshina from the BBC Russian service and Irina Tarnayuk of BBC Ukrainian. For Ukraine it's a huge blow, huge diplomatic blow because Ukraine feels left out and seeing not just normalisation between the USA and Russia but what is perceived as normalisation on steroids can't but hurt Ukrainian feelings. Did we get any greater clarity today about at what point Ukraine might be involved in these future talks and how that might work?

The best pointer was from Marco Rubio's US State Secretary's presser when he said that this is not even pre-negotiations to discuss any potential peace deal. It's just the starting point to launch some sort of a dialogue between the sides and both Europe, the EU as potential guarantor of any peace deal, and Ukraine as a party to this war, which interestingly Marco Rubio kept calling conflict only. So there was a slight shift in vocabulary if you want, look. So I think that would not be interpreted or looked at kindly by Ukrainian side either because they see some signs of American position shifting towards softening of sanctions and for that the

USA needs Europe because interestingly also in Lavrov's lingo Europe is the enemy Europe is anti-russian force even though it's European war and it will be up to Europe to sort it out eventually wouldn't it? Olga, one of the other things at least posed in some questioning today was about the possibility of Putin and Zelensky talking. I think I'm right in saying that Putin's spokesperson made reference to this in their response to the talks. How likely do you think that is anytime soon? Well, I guess that is possible of course. I think Putin is very pleased that current negotiations

are going directly between US and Russia and Ukraine is not at the table. Putin is definitely very happy with that. It seems at least they try to show that they feel very empowered, very confident but the truth is that there are still issues they don't like to talk about. For example, Ukraine still controls a part of the Russian territory, which they gained after encircling the Kursk region of Russia.

So we don't really know how far those negotiations went, what Russia has to give in, what they have to trade in in order to achieve that, to be fair, in order to conduct any PST, the need to meet directly. So I guess that's possible, but once again the crucial thing is what the details of this meeting and this agreement will be. What about the economic side of things? Because there was a lot of discussion on that front, wasn't there? I mean, the head of the Russian Direct Investment Fund was there, not involved

in the talks, but was definitely floating around it quite closely. Yes, definitely Russia is interested in lifting some of the sanctions in start of business as usual. Definitely they're interested in that. What that means for the democratic world is a very different question which I guess the West needs to find an answer for. And I mean just finally with you, what is next for Zelensky on this front? Does he need to corral his European strategic partners a bit more? Where does he go next? He's back in Kiev where tomorrow he'll have the first face-to-face meeting with Keith Kellogg, the new US representative on Ukraine. Hopefully for him, for Ukraine, he'll bring the message across. And also he's trying to corral Europe at large. In Turkey, he raised the possibility of Ankara,

official Ankara in Turkey and Erdogan being involved, because Erdogan really liked hearing that, playing the regional leader that he is. And also United Kingdom, he said he said Europe at large Europe as such is not just European Union it's also the United Kingdom it's also Turkey so he is broadening this support base for Ukraine and hoping that when the US is withdrawing from the process of supporting Ukraine in the future, you'll have someone to fall back on. Arina Tarnajuk of the BBC Ukrainian Service and we also heard from Og Ivshina of BBC Russia.

And still to come on the Global News Podcast. If you're feeling upset or want to express yourself, It's quite complicated and expensive to stage an opera or throw a pot, but you do have access to poetry. The UK announces what's described as a long overdue National Poetry Centre. Hello, I'm Katja Adler, host of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. Each weekday, we break down one big new story with fresh perspectives from journalists around the world. From artificial intelligence to divisive politics tearing our societies apart, from the movements of money and markets to the human stories that

touch our lives, we bring you in-depth insights from across the BBC and beyond. Listen to the global story wherever you get your BBC podcasts. On Friday last week, the Rwandan-backed M23 rebels began marching into Bukavu in the Democratic Republic of Congo. They were largely unopposed, but as they advanced, they executed children, according to the UN Human Rights Office. A spokesperson warned of a worsening security situation in eastern Congo with reports of sexual violence and forced recruitment.

Bukavu was the second major city to fall to the rebels after Goma. And they say they'll take their fight all the way to the Congolese capital Kinshasa, more than a thousand kilometres away. Ola Gharian sent this report from Eastern Congo. I'm standing in a recovery room in Indosho Hospital in Goma. There are three patients here on trolleys, all young men. And here in this hospital alone there are four operating rooms in use all day, sometimes at night, to try to keep up with the volume of war wounded civilians and soldiers who have been brought in.

Okay, so my name is Miriam Favier, I'm based in Gouma for the International Red Cross. We are here now at the Endosho Hospital, which is one of the hospitals you support. You have more than 300 patients, you have beds for 146. How much pressure have the doctors and the nurses been under? I think it's been a terrible situation for the doctors. They slept in the OTs. Our medical supplies were looted at the very beginning of the escalation of the conflict in Goma. Tell me about the kind of injuries you've been receiving. Is it mostly gunshots? It was a lot of gunshots. It was also an increasing number of explosive devices.

And you have also pediatric war surgery, because a lot of children were also wounded. We meet some of them in a tent in the hospital grounds. David, who's 15, cries in pain. He was hit in the face by a stray bullet. In the next bed, 13-year-old Heshima winces as he tries to shift his weight. One of his legs is now a bandaged stump. His relative, Tantin, tells us what happened. A bomb fell on the child killing his parents. Was there fighting in the area? Were there clashes between different groups? It was a Sunday.

It was the M23 who dropped the bomb. There was fighting between them and the army. They dropped the bomb and I lost six members of my family. While Tantin mourns, some welcome the M23 to Bukavu. It's the second major city they have captured recently. They prefer liberated. M23 say they are defending ethnic minority Tutsis. Human rights groups accuse the rebels and their enemies,

the Congolese army, of killing and raping civilians. I'm at the edge of Goma. There are green hills all around in the distance and stretching out as far as the eye can see. There are rows and rows of quite tense, some very scrappy, falling apart. I'm in a camp called Bulengo, one of several camps here for people who have been displaced by fighting. Crowds gather round us to say they are being displaced again by an ultimatum from M23, among them a young mother called Divine who has a babe in arms. We were here when they came and told us, you have three days to leave.

We were scared because we have nowhere to go. The houses have been destroyed, there are none left. Hunger is killing us in the camp. But we don't see how we can go home to nothing. We don't see how we can go home to nothing. M23 say they are encouraging voluntary returns. But that's not how it feels to many here. We saw an extended family setting off with what little they had tied to their backs. Cooking pots, rolled up bedding and a wooden stool.

cooking pots, rolled up bedding and a wooden stool. The family are on their way now. They've told us it will be a two-day journey by foot. Around the camp we've seen others who are packing up, getting ready to go. Many say they're frightened to leave, but they're also scared to stay. Mála Gheran reporting from Eastern Congo. The fate of the Bebas family has tormented the Israeli public since the Hamas attack of October 7th, 2023. A picture of the two young redheaded boys, Ariel and Kuffir, being abducted along with their distraught mother Shiri, became a symbol of the brutality of that day. The father, Yarden Bebas, was released earlier this month, but Hamas said his wife and two

children were killed by Israeli bombing in late 2023. Their deaths were never confirmed and many in Israel refused to believe it. Now Hamas has said their bodies will be handed over on Thursday, ahead of the release of six living hostages on Saturday. Mark Lowen in Jerusalem told me about the likely reaction in Israel. I think it's going to be a very painful moment, Ollie, even though really I think a lot of people who expected it to happen because Hamas has long alleged that the Bebas family or at least Shiri Bebas and her two sons who were the two youngest hostages taken on the 7th of October, were killed in an Israeli bombardment. Israel has never confirmed that. But when the hostages

started being released, the living hostages on the 19th of January, if those two boys had been alive, everybody expected them to be in the early release groups and they haven't appeared. So I think that this is kind of the inevitable and yet it will be extremely painful because as you say they have become very much the kind of icons of the cruelty of the 7th of October. Across Israel you see their portraits kind of symbolising this youthful innocence which was taken on the 7th of October. I mean the B'Best family have released a statement saying we are in turmoil, we've not received any official confirmation and until we do our journey is not over.

That is a reference to the fact that Israel says it will not confirm the identity of the four dead hostages until the forensic tests have been carried out here. Will Barber Now this is part of a series of handovers, living hostages on Saturday, more dead bodies next week. Is the the deal accelerating? It seems to be faster than had been planned. It seems to be, yes, because initially there were three living hostages planned for release on Saturday and that's been doubled and we are told that that is intended by Hamas as a gesture of good faith in the negotiations which are restarting in

Cairo to move to the second phase of the ceasefire. Remember, just last week it appeared that the whole ceasefire was hanging by a thread when Hamas threatened to suspend all the hostage, the remaining releases of the hostages, but it's been brought back on track by the regional mediators and with the release of these four bodies on Thursday, then the six living hostages on Saturday and then four more bodies next week that completes the 33 hostages who are due to be released in the first phase so then the second phase could in theory begin but then the second phase of the ceasefire is going to contain the really really tricky topic of an Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza

Strip. And within Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet on the far right, particularly, there's a lot of opposition to that from ministers and, indeed, ex-ministers who want Israel to resume the war in Gaza once the hostages are released. So there is no guarantee, and it's absolutely not a given, that they will be able to move to phase two but the momentum is swinging back towards negotiations of some sort at least. Mark Lowen in Jerusalem. A British couple arrested in Iran last month during a round the world motorcycle trip have been charged with spying offences. Craig and Lindsay Foreman, who are both 52, are accused of collecting information in different locations across Iran. The BBC's Azadeh Mushiri is in neighbouring Pakistan. She spoke to Tim Franks.

A lot of the information that we've been getting has been coming from Iranian state media. This latest information is from a judiciary-run news agency and even quoted a judiciary spokesman, Asghar Jahangir, saying the couple had been under surveillance by intelligence agencies in the province and were, in their words, arrested as part of a coordinated intelligence operation. They're arguing that the couple came under the guise, the pretense of a tourist trip, but actually were collecting information for Western intelligence officials. Now this is completely different to what we've heard from Lindsay and Craig Foreman's family

and also from Lindsay Foreman's own social media accounts because what's really notable about this case is that since they were embarking on this trip across the world on their motorbikes, they'd already posted so many videos and pictures of their time in various countries, including Armenia, the country they were in before they got into Iran. Throughout, you see a very positive outlook, especially in Iran. Lindsay Foreman talks about how she's there having an amazing time enjoying the food, talking about shared humanity. A lot of this is because she's a life coach. She has a doctorate in psychology and the purpose of this trip was to end up in Australia as their final stop where Lindsay would present her research on what it means to live a good life and in fact they'd only planned on staying in

Iran for five days and instead have been detained since early January. And just to be clear, I mean, although you said it was a brief visit and all the PR around this was, look, we're showing the benefits of a shared humanity. I mean, there is a pretty clear British government travel advisory about Iran, isn't there? There is. The Foreign Office currently advises British nationals to avoid all travel to Iran. It adds that British and British-Iranian dual nationals are at significant risk of arrest, questioning or detention. It even says that having a British passport or connections to the UK can be reason enough for the Iranian authorities to detain you. But they actually knew about these risks. It's very clear because Lindsay Foreman posted about it on social

media prior to making the trip. They said they're facing their fears and defying recommendations from friends, family, and the FCDO travel advice. She acknowledged that traveling to Iran and to Pakistan, which was her next stop, was risky and in her words, slightly scary, but that they hoped the reward would be worth it and that they'd hired a tour guide and were taking every precaution. They said that they believed they'd be able to really show that the world had some form of shared humanity and that they were doing this with the best of intentions. To BBC's Azadeh Mashiri in Islamabad.

Technological advances have seen things that were once inconceivable being grown in labs from red blood cells to human skin, chocolate to diamonds. Now teeth could join that list. Researchers at Tufts University in the US city of Boston say false teeth or dentures could become a thing of the past as they're on the verge of a breakthrough in creating new teeth from a mix of human and pig cells. The BBC's Evan Davis got the details from Dr Pamela Yelich, professor of orthodontics. Dr Yelich We have been working to try to create bioengineered teeth that more closely resemble natural teeth as compared to currently used implants which

are made of synthetic materials. So based on techniques that have been used for many decades now in tissue engineering and regenerative medicine, we mix cells with scaffolds, which are materials that the cells can sit onto and grow and reorganize themselves into various organs. So this has been successfully used to create organs, organ tissues including liver and heart muscle and skeletal muscle, bone and we're using these same techniques to regenerate teeth. It's not necessarily all human cells, the pig is the other part of this? That's correct. There are two types of cells which contribute to teeth and they are dental epithelial cells and dental mesenchymal cells. So we get the human dental mesenchymal cells

from extracted teeth, human teeth, wisdom teeth, for example, that need to be extracted. But the dental epithelial component is harder to obtain. And so for these studies to show proof of principle, we use pig dental epithelial cells. Wow. So we're hoping that the bioengineered teeth would actually fare better than a titanium implant. The tooth bud, this bioengineered tooth bud, would get implanted into the jaw and then the idea is that ultimately it would grow and erupt into a functional tooth.

Pamela Yelich, Professor of Orthodontics. The Canadian novelist and playwright Antonine Maillet has died in Montreal at the age of 95. Lise Doucet looks back at her life. Antoinette Maillet is the most renowned novelist and playwright from eastern Canada, and its French-speaking community known as the Acadians. Her work celebrates Acadian language, heritage and pride. She once said, if I have one claim to fame, it's that I took the Acadian language from its oral tradition to the written word.

In 1979, she became the first Canadian to receive the prestigious French literary award, the Prix Grand Cours, for her novel Pellagie la Charrette, the story of a feisty widow's epic journey home to eastern Canada, after the British expulsion of the Acadians in 1755. The French president Emmanuel Macron paid tribute to Ms Maillet's immense work and rebellious strength which uplifted the soul and said she was mourned by French-speaking communities the world over. Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Ms Maillet had left an indelible mark on Canada's cultural landscape. Please do sit.

In the country that brought you Chaucer, Shakespeare, Keats and Wordsworth, it might surprise you there is no national centre to celebrate poetry. But that is about to change. The man behind the project, the UK's poet laureate Simon Armitage, says poetry is the most accessible and democratic of art forms. He told the BBC's Tim Franks why. If you're feeling upset about something or want to express yourself, it's quite complicated and expensive to stage an opera or throw a pot. But you do have access to poetry because

for most people, language is a free gift. It's something that they've learned before they even know it. And if you have that and something to write with and on, you're away. And of course these days there are more and more opportunities for us to share that, for example, through social media. In what way do you then think that a national poetry centre, how can that be a sort of crucible for poetry? One of the things that's happened over the last few years is that we've become more and more isolated and solipsistic and as an invitation in a centre like

this together for younger generations it's absolutely imperative that we And there's an invitation in a centre like this to gather. For younger generations it's absolutely imperative that we invest in places where people can communicate face to face and learn how to disagree and be accepting of each other's opinions. Why Leeds? This is my part of the world. I'm a professor of poetry at Leeds University. And there's been a great appetite and energy for this idea shown from Leeds right from the beginning. There's also

something of a drive in Leeds towards making it a city of language and literacy. Beyond that, it's roughly in the middle of the country. It's very well connected. We've already got a huge number of national institutions in our capital, but I think of late there's been a sort of philosophical move towards decentralisation, which reflects really what's happened in poetry as well. And I think it's just more reflective of a plurality within the art form. And celebrating that plurality and celebrating the colours of the national language, is there going to be space for languages? Because obviously Britain has a multiplicity. Yeah, exactly. And the area of Leeds that we're talking about is typically diverse.

So yes, when we talk about Britain and we talk about languages, we're talking about that great richness, which poetry has really benefited from in our country and which a lot of particularly younger people are finding a means of expression to talk about their own lives and what the world means to them through their own language. There's no better way really of being in touch with your identity than through your grammar and through your syntax. At some level I can see that a national poetry centre might seem to some people an esoteric idea, but really what we're doing here is we're trying to encourage people to have

a better relationship with language and to play with language because in doing that you get closer to yourself and you get closer to understanding the world. The UK poet laureate Simon Armitage. And that is all from us for now, but the Global News podcast will be back very soon. This edition was mixed by Derek Clark and produced by Marion Straughan, our editor's Karen Martin. I'm Oliver Conway. Until next time, goodbye. journalists around the world. From artificial intelligence to divisive politics tearing our societies apart. From the movements of money and markets to the human stories that touch our lives, we

bring you in-depth insights from across the BBC and beyond. Listen to The Global Story wherever you get your BBC podcasts.