Global News Podcast - Global News Brexitcast

Episode Date: October 25, 2019

We team up with the award-winning Brexitcast team to bring you a special update on what Britain leaving the EU means for you. You’ve sent us questions from around the world and Jackie Leonard puts them to the experts from the podcast that’s all about Brexit. There’s also cake, phew. Spread the word! #GlobalNewsPod #Brexitcast Find the Brexitcast podcast here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/brexitcast

Hello, this is the Global News Podcast from the BBC World Service, with reports and analysis from across the world. The latest news seven days a week. BBC World Service podcasts are supported by advertising. If you're hearing this, you're probably already listening to BBC's award-winning news podcasts. But did you know that you can listen to them without ads? Get current affairs podcasts like Thank you. Amazon Music with a Prime membership. Spend less time on ads and more time with BBC Podcasts. I'm a little disappointed. I was hoping I was going to be over in one of your studios, like visiting Graceland or Disney World or something.

But no, just LBH. This feels... This really does feel Reithian in here. Well, you're obviously here to inform entertain and educate oh yeah this is all good okay right so welcome to the global news podcast with a slightly different flavor today we are being joined by the experts from brexit cast this is how they normally start their podcast brexit cast brexit cast from the bb. No one's got a clue what Brexit is. Brexit is...

I haven't quite understood the full extent of this. We're particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais cross. I met Boris Johnson once. The doubters, the doomsters, the gloomsters, they are going to get it wrong again. Remainers and leavers, that's going to end well. A process which I cannot describe as a dog's Brexit. I'm Jackie Leonard and I am welcoming you to a very special collaboration

between the BBC World Service Global News Podcast and Chris. Mason of Brexitcast. Well, one quarter of Brexitcast. And for Brexitcast listeners who have somehow missed us, the Global News Podcast, it is recorded twice a day on weekdays, once a day on weekends. It's a snapshot of the biggest stories of the moment. The World Service has an outward-looking focus, and that means I can get through entire days without actually knowing what's going on in the UK at all.

Obviously, that has been changing a little bit of late. Now, we have a very big audience, 13.5 million downloads a month. Its listeners are from all over the world. They are all ages. The one thing that they all have in common, they are clever, inquiring, thoughtful people. But because they live all over the world,

they haven't necessarily grown up knowing all about British politics, history, political tradition. They have not necessarily been following every twist and turn of Brexit. In the forensic detail that you have, this is where you come in. So for our listeners who might inexplicably have missed Brexitcast, tell us about you. By the way, I wish I'd known about the number of downloads and the number of editions that you do because you've made us look positively tiny and positively lazy,

given the amount of output that you guys because you've made us look positively tiny and positively lazy given the amount of output that you guys churn out so what is brexit cast it's an assembly of four political journalists led by laura kunzberg our political editor and catcher adler our europe editor and then there's adam fleming brussels correspondent and me as a political correspondent and we just sit in the studio and talk in theory once a week about all things Brexit. We have become a little more productive in recent weeks and months because of the volume of news that has been about, but as I say, not quite the productivity in terms of the number of podcasts that you manage.

Is that a reasonable description, guys, of what we do? I think so. It's Laura here in London as well. And Jackie, thanks for having us. And wherever you're listening in the world, this is quite terrifying, really, because we feel when we do Brexitcast, we basically sit in a cupboard and talk to each other and nobody really pays attention.

Yeah, I mean, Brexit has been in the UK a very long running saga. And we all work in daily news when we have to sort of compress as much as you can into relatively short periods of time. What we do on this podcast is try to untangle it a bit. And I suppose what's unusual is that me and Chris are normally in Westminster, where we work full time talking to politicians all the time.

And then our colleagues Katia and Adam are in Brussels, where they work all the time. So sort of together, it's like the two sides of a very confusing sandwich, I suppose. And it's Adam in Brussels here. And the complaint I get from most people is that they don't like how I pronounce the word Brexit. Because I'm Scottish, I say it with a double G and people would prefer I said Brexit. But I have to try very hard to say that.

OK, if you have any thoughts about how Adam says Brexit, just tweet him. OK, so we were hoping that Katya was going to turn up and I believe she has. Yes, she has. The wonders of modern technology and all the rest of it. Yes, I'm here, Katya Adler, sometimes known on the podcast as Dr. Adler, just for fun. And yes, I sit with Adam in Brussels, unless we're travelling around,

and try and give the full view and also ask the EU's questions to Laura and Chris about what is going on in UK politics too. Now, Global News podcast listeners will know that we've been promising to do this quite a long time. And every time we had a date to do it, something happened. And so just to get us across where we are right now at five past 10 GMT on Friday the 25th of October. Chris, where are we? So we are waiting for the European Union to decide how long the delay, as requested by the British Parliament,

which the British Prime Minister Boris Johnson was rather keen to avoid but now accepts as an inevitability, how long that delay will be. And the reason that that matters, as Katja and Adam Manlor will be able to talk about in great detail, is because that will set the framework for British politics over the next few weeks or the next few months. In other words, is there a tearing hurry to try and secure a Brexit deal because the extension is only a couple of weeks, or as it would appear is more likely, it is a couple of months until the end of January, creating a window, potentially, for a UK general election,

something which Mr Johnson wants, but which, as things stand, the opposition parties aren't necessarily in a tearing hurry to endorse, even if they might get there eventually, and some more quickly than others. So, Catcher Adam, we're waiting for news from where you are, really. Well, we've stopped waiting because the ambassadors to the 27 other EU countries, the representatives here in Brussels, have just come out of a two-hour-long meeting

where they were hearing from the EU's chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, where they were meant to be discussing the date at which Brexit would be delayed to for a third time. And Michel Barnier says they had a good discussion, but no decision. So we've stopped waiting for today, but we'll have to wait for a few more days. And I think this is typical of where we are and have been for three years with Brexit,

is that every time there seems to be an end date, or we'll definitely know this by then, or the UK will definitely have left the EU by then, whether it's the 29th of March or the 3rd of October, something happens and it's all moved on one more time. And I think, you know, we also because it's quite an informal podcast as you get messages from listeners or viewers of the television version just going, ah, because, you know, everyone is frustrated. But also, you know, uncertainty is costly for businesses in the UK and the EU. And it's very worrying, you know, for people as well. So there's this sort of superficial frustration, but an ongoing concern as well. Commentary by sound effect is one of our little things on Brexitcast.

And not least, Laura, because I think as we were discussing on the podcast the other day, the striking thing about reporting on this whole Brexit saga has been that at every moment where there's a moment of apparent clarity, we have learnt that it's a little mistier in reality often. I think that's right. And one of the things, Jackie, because this has been going on for such a long time, I suppose people working on it and living it and understanding it, it's sort of a whole psychodrama. I don't mean to diminish

what's happening. But part of the story, it's not just about this enormous political change that the UK is really struggling with going through, which is basically where we've been in sort of 2016. It's a national struggle and tension over what happened in the referendum result. But I think also for a news story, it's a very emotional news story. Does that make sense, guys? It sort of feels like because we're working on it, we're living it, the country's living it, the politicians are certainly on living it. And we often, you know, we have politicians on onto the podcast as well. And some of them are in real agony, you know, and it's a

sort of a curious thing. And a podcast where you've got a lot more time to talk about these things is a great way of doing it because you can't begin to try to get that across in, you know, three minutes

on the 10 o'clock news. Well, let's look at some of the questions that people have sent in. We've been inviting questions from all over the world and they have been flooding in. And some of them have been overtaken by events, of of course but we will press on with the ones which I

think are still pertinent. So we heard from Nicholas Ward in the US. He had been told by a British friend that the referendum was non-binding so could the UK government have ignored it? Jason in Cincinnati who actually picked up my Sharknado reference when I was talking about forces of nature meeting sharks and Brexitcast and the Global News Pod, so we have to include him. He was talking about the nature of Norway's relationship with the EU and couldn't the UK just do that?

They have free trade between Norway and the EU, shared immigration policy. What about their border with Sweden? How tricky is that? Andrew Farrell, this is quite interesting. He asked about how Brexit is perceived. In the US, he says Brexit's couched in Trumpian, xenophobic language, speaking about a rightward shift. But there were quite a lot of Labour constituencies which voted leave.

So he's asking about progressive arguments for Brexit. And then Jesse in Finland got straight to the crunch. Hi there, I'm calling from Finland and I would like to ask a question about what was the root reason to vote Leave during referendum? So there you go. A few to unpack there. Shall I have a crack at Nicholas's question

about the whole advisory thing? Oh, by the way, it's great to hear all of these listeners to your pod. In America, we were slightly taken aback last night when a viewer at San Francisco Airport spotted Brexit cast on BBC World News. They just have visions of people having their

last drink before boarding a plane and encountering our four faces, which is quite something. Yeah, that question about advisory from Nicholas and thanks for your question, Nicholas. So constitutionally, technically, yes, it was an advisory referendum. But politically, Parliament had said we are effectively subcontracting this back to you, the British people, because it's a sufficiently big decision that you should take it. And the promise was we will implement what you say.

And, of course, part of the nature of the political row since and and a contributory factor to i guess why it's become as toxic as it has in certain elements in terms of the anger is that sense from some that that promise was made and it hasn't yet been delivered upon and in fact the former british prime minister theresa may made that kind of point in a contribution to a debate in the commons the other day effectively saying look you know we did promise to deliver this and with every passing week we are you know failing to do that let's try and get some sort of deal over the line is the argument from her. Of course, others are making the argument, look, democracy never stops. And you can continue to have discussions and arguments. And of course, some advocates having another crack

having another referendum. But I think another one of the problems is that, you know, you know what it's like before a general election, right? So all politicians promise the earth, don't they? They say, you know, you're going to have the best health care system in no way of knowing what every single person had in their mind when they voted, why they voted that way, and what they wanted out of that vote. Now, you know, politicians on both sides, whether it's on the remain side or the leave side said stick with our side because it's going to be brilliant. If you make lots of promises, people inevitably are going to be disappointed. And I think the problem that we've seen as you go through this negotiation process with the EU, because the EU also has to decide what it will allow out of Brexit, is that you will have a lot of people who are disappointed or frustrated

because the kind of life on the other side of the vote doesn't necessarily look like what they had in mind. And this is complex for politicians and it's complex for those who voted. And so you often just have a really big feeling in the UK of anger, frustration, dissatisfaction. And if I were a politician, I wouldn't really know how to make everybody happy either at this stage. I don't know if the three of you have an idea. Laura?

No. No. I mean, I think what I completely agree with and to think it was a question from the States, there is no way you can get in the minds of more than 17 million people who voted one way. And I think it was just under 17 million people who voted the other way. And I covered that campaign and we had all sorts of reasons from people all over the country why they were voting leave. Some people were very concerned about immigration. Some people really didn't like the fact that in the UK, EU law was supreme. Some people really didn't like the fact that at that moment, the EU was having a lot of problems. You know, you've got to remember, it was in the situation where there'd been the Eurozone crisis and then the migrant crisis. And

so for a lot of people, they kind of looked across the channel and thought, oh, the EU is not working very well. It's not working very well at all. Do we want to be part of that? And there was also a much more old fashioned, what we call Euroscepticism, prevalent among the Tory party about people who really never wanted to be part of the big political project anyway. So they might have been very happy with the economic side of it, you know, used to be called the common market, but the single market where people can trade without borders. But there was a really strong tradition on the right of the country about just not really being very into the whole idea.

But you mentioned the argument on the right, but Andrew Farrell's question from Chicago was saying, is there a left-wing argument as well? Because quite a lot of Labour Party voting constituencies voted Leave. There are two parts to that, Jackie. I mean, first off, you've got in constituencies, right? So for members of the public, loads of people who are Labour voters voted Leave. In fact, the majority of current Labour seats were Leave voting constituencies. So again, there are all sorts of reasons. It's not a right and left thing. And there's an argument on the Labour left, absolutely, prevalent in some bits of the union movement that says, actually, the EU always acts in the interests of big business. Actually, we'd be much better off out. So that brings us sort of to the point, it's not a left

or right issue. And that's why our political system, which is based on the idea of one lot on one side on the left, another side on the other, you know, don't forget how oppositional British politics is. I mean, they even sit on two sides of the House of Commons staring each other down. But Brexit is not a simple left and right issue. That's why the two sides, it kind of hasn't mixed. It's like trying to mix milk and water. I say it just doesn't, it just doesn't work. You know, Brexit does not work in the traditional structures of the House of Commons. And just a quick word about Theresa May, the previous British Prime Minister, who was condemned for being a bit indecisive. She actually quite quickly after the referendum,

tried to boil down what the Leave vote actually meant. And it became control of our money, borders, and laws. That definition of what Leave meant set the UK on the course that it's pursued since. I mean, of course, when she then got further into her time in office, she moved away from that a bit. And just quickly on the Sharknado fans question about Norway. Yeah, the Norway's relationship with the EU is on offer to the UK if it wanted, but it would involve the UK basically continuing to participate in the single market, which would mean following EU rules on a whole swathe of areas of the economy and national life, which is something that's been rejected by the

government. And so Norway is still on offer from the EU if that's where the UK would like to end up. But it's not palatable to the UK at the moment. The other problem with the Norway-Sweden border is even if the UK were to sign up to the single market, even though Norway is in the single market and Sweden isn't an EU country, because Norway isn't in the customs union, and I'm sorry to sort of use all these terms, but it means that there is border infrastructure. There are checks between those two countries. One of the realities that Brexit has crashed into was a promise that you could have friction-free trade still between the UK and the EU even after Brexit. This cannot work if the UK leaves the

single market and the customs union. And in the UK, when the UK leaves the EU, it's very different to say if Sweden decided to leave the EU, because if Sweden decides to leave the EU, it would have a customs border on its border. Because of the Northern Ireland issue for the United Kingdom, when the UK leaves the EU and its customs union and single market, the customs line between the single market and UK after Brexit runs through the island of Ireland and the whole issue of the peace process comes up. And this is one of the big, big realities that Brexit has crashed into. So I'm sorry it gets so complex, but it's not black and white. And this is why one of the

reasons this process is taking so long. At heart, this is all about human beings and how it affects people. And I know that there are some questions that you can't fully answer yet. We had one from a gentleman who is Greek, currently working in Germany, used to work here in the UK. He's wondering about what will happen to his taxes and his pension. Will he get that? And then there were these people as well. My name is Isabella. I'm 17 years old and I come from Spain. I was wondering what will be the consequences of Brexit for prospective EU students entering university in the UK in 2020? Hi, my name is Sigurd and I'm a student currently living in Bergen, Norway. Do you know what will happen to foreign students living in the UK after Brexit? Also, do you know

if Brexit will make it more challenging to arrange these programs in the future? Hello, my name is Julia Hempel. I'm originally from Germany, but I'm currently volunteering for a charity in North Yorkshire, which supports people with learning disabilities, autism and mental health problems. I was just wondering how Brexit would influence my stay here in the UK. For example, would I need to apply for a visa or could I even be asked to leave the country? Thank you so much for answering my question. Jackie, I should let you in on one of the secret weapons of Brexit cast. This is also a way of me dodging trying to answer any of those rather tricky questions,

but really important ones about people's lives. Adam has his binders where he keeps all of the documents associated with the Brexit process and assiduously reads every syllable. And so I reckon in a slight sort of hospital pass style move, Adam, that those questions had Mr. Fleming written all over them. So if there is a Brexit deal and it goes through, there'll be a transition period, which the UK government calls an implementation phase, where everything will stay exactly the same as it is now. It's just the UK will be out of the EU legally and that will continue to the end of 2020 at least and could be extended to 2021 or to the end of 2022.

If it is exists and if it is extended, then everything happens now, whether you're a student or a volunteer, whether you're a German living in the UK or a Spanish person who's lived in the UK, they move to Germany, whatever. Everything will stay the same for you. If there is no deal, that's sort of that prospect disappearing now, you're then into your contingency measures. And the government has said that things like Erasmus, the student exchange scheme, if you're starting an Erasmus year in the UK now, you will be okay. Next year, a different matter. And then in the long term, the EU student exchange program Erasmus is now being opened up to any other country in the world. And the UK will just have to negotiate membership of that programme as a so-called third country,

an independent country that's not in the EU in the long term. And of course, the UK government has said that as part of its negotiations about the permanent future relationship that it will have with the EU, education and students is going to be a big part of that because it's a big industry for the UK and important for lots of people in Europe. And of course, there will be quite a lot of British people currently working and studying in Europe who will be watching very closely too. Yeah, and of course, that's why I keep talking about the transition period because it sort of disappeared from the headlines and the discussion because it's been agreed. But that is what gives you your certainty for at least another year that things will stay the same.

It's really if there is no deal and the UK leaves without an agreement that actually it becomes a much more uncertain world. Although you could argue the uncertainty is just booted to the end of the transition period because all of these things will have to be agreed between a departed UK and the rest of the EU. Quite a lot of our listeners are a little concerned about what the UK is going to look like at all in future years. We heard from

one correspondent in the US called David Snyder. Let's hear from him. Hello, I'm David from Indiana in the United States. Could Northern Ireland hold a referendum vote similar to the 2014 Scottish referendum to leave the UK? Upon becoming an independent country, Northern Ireland could then rejoin the EU to avoid the hard border with Ireland. Is this something we could expect to see in the years following whatever deal comes out of the Brexit agreement? And as well as him, we heard from Joe Hancock, who has been studying politics. He and his class actually came over to the UK in the spring,

expecting to see Brexit in the wild, like cherry blossoms in Japan or the fall in New England or something, and it just didn't happen for him. But he is also wondering about whether Scotland will get another shot at independence and whether we are likely to see the island of Ireland unified. Let's go to Laura first. So both of those issues are things that

Westminster politicians on the unionist side of the argument are very worried about, particularly if there were to be a Brexit without a formal arrangement in place, what we call a no deal, where things would be more uncertain, potentially chaotic for a while while it all got sorted out, although some people would agree with that. In that kind of environment, unionists, so, you know, in the UK, just for our listeners, both the Labour Party and the Tory Party and the Liberal Democrats, who are this party in the middle, absolutely firmly believe that the union should stay together.

So Northern Ireland, England, Scotland, Wales should be absolutely preserved. There's no question that for the Scottish Nationalists, the SNP, and also for Sinn Féin, who obviously are in Northern Ireland and in the south of Ireland now too, the kind of aftermath of all of this, the potential chaos there could be if there's a no-deal departure, is an opportunity. It's a question.

It's an opportunity for them to try to put the questions again about whether or not Scotland should become an independent country and whether or not potentially there could be a border poll on the island of Ireland about whether Northern Ireland should join with the South. So this is something that is very much on politicians' minds. But there is no certainty at all that either of those are things that would actually happen. And remember, in the Scottish independence referendum, which was not so long ago, although it feels like a political lifetime, there was a clear majority foreseeing as part of the UK.

I reckon, just for a free bit of travel advice, that if you're planning a trip to the UK to try and be here to coincide with Brexit, I'd get an open return. I think he learnt that lesson. On that theme, there's been a wonderful thing doing the rounds on social media this week, on Twitter, someone tweeting, the year is 2192. The British Prime Minister visits Brussels

to ask for an extension of the Brexit deadline. No one remembers where this tradition originated, but every year it attracts many tourists from all over the world. Well, I have to say, I think, again, it comes back down, though, to uncertainty, even if it lasts to 2059. But the idea of the uncertainty about

what will the UK look like after it leaves the EU? Will the UK actually leave the EU is what some are asking? And what will happen to the United Kingdom? Could it break up? You know, could Scotland break away? Could there be a United Ireland? Whether any of these things actually happen or not, the fact is, there is massive uncertainty, and uncertainty is worrying for people. And I think it's prevalent, you know, across the UK. And it's felt to a lesser extent, but it is felt in the EU as well. And on Ireland, there's a really interesting thing that emerged from the negotiations. So the UK and Ireland have had a sort of special, you could say, relationship going back decades and decades and centuries. At the start

of the negotiations, both sides agreed, let's maintain something called the common travel area, which means that Irish citizens have the right to come and work in the UK and live and study, and UK citizens have the right to do the same thing in Ireland, completely independently and separately from the fact that both countries are in the EU, the common travel area. At the start of the negotiations, both the UK and the EU said, yep, let's preserve the common travel area. It's important for political and historical reasons. Then everyone went, what actually is the common travel area? Why does it exist? And they had to go through all these different pieces of legislation, because it had just built up over decades and decades and decades as a thing. It wasn't a distinct thing in itself that you could point to and say,

that's why the common travel area exists. And so that's why the negotiations were a fascinating kind of learning process for everyone about just the wiring that links the UK and Ireland and the EU together. Poor Jackie is realising, guys, that once us four get going, once we're nattering, there's no stopping us. I am fascinated. I am fascinated by this because it's something that our listeners are very keen on and some of them are baffled by the relationship between the DUP and the Conservative Party, for instance, and how that plays into decisions that are made about what happens next. Yes, the Northern Ireland's

Democratic Unionist Party, the kind of clue is in the title as far as what their reason for being is, which is preserving the union of Northern Ireland with the rest of the UK, with Great Britain, with England, Scotland and Wales. And they were crucial, of course, during Theresa May's time as British Prime Minister, certainly the last couple of years of it, because they propped her up. The Prime Minister needed their vote in order to assemble a majority.

Now, the DUP were in favour of Brexit, are in favour of Brexit, but at the absolute core of their reason for being, as I say, is protecting another union, the Union of the UK, and they don't like this Johnsonian vision of Brexit because they think it puts up a barrier, basically, between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. And to address one of the questions that we were talking about a few minutes ago, their fear, I suppose, that it creates a situation where it might be,

as they would see it, a slippery slope towards a united Ireland, which is the exact opposite of what they stand for. But they've had this sort of turbocharged role, considering they only have, what, 10 MPs, I think, in a parliament of 650, because they have been the difference, no longer, because Mr Johnson doesn't have a majority at all, even with them. But they've been the difference between assembling a majority, potentially, and not. And that's a really important, boring, really crucial point.

Not boring, not boring at all. Forget about, well, forget about, oh, I wasn't talking about Chris. I was talking about what I was going to say. I wouldn't dare be so rude about one of my colleagues um forget about brexit for a second one of the reasons why we've got what is unusual instability for the uk which i'm sure are you know your listeners around the world must think well hang on britain's meant to be a stable country it meant to be quite quite sane and, you know, traditional and sensible and conventional compared to lots of other countries around the world. But we're living through an era where governments have had either no majority or a tiny majority. And in that kind of era, even forget about Brexit, whether that was happening or not, that kicks in a level of instability. And that's kind of at the core of all of this,

because if a government had had majority, they would have been able to get their Brexit deal through. If Theresa May hadn't had the election in 2017, she might have been able to get it through and all of that. But this is sort of, it's like a giant Jenga tower. It's really, really wobbly, even if you forget about all the contradictions and conundrums of Brexit. Let's talk about a second referendum, shall we? Anna Rosenberg, a listener, said that she can't see there being anything happening without being passed by a second referendum. Ali Mahmood was curious about that as well. He says, well, the 2016 referendum happened without any details. So

people know more now. So why not give them a choice with two questions is his theory. So you can either stay and leave and then if leave with a deal or no deal. Ulrich Penitz in Austria suggested three questions. Stay, leave, but close to the EU, leave with a hard Brexit. And there's some audio from California as well, I believe. Hi, my name is Cassie McCarthy and I'm from Boone, North Carolina. My question is, what mutterings and mentions have been said with regards to a second referendum? How likely or unlikely is it?

What would the repercussions be? And who, if anyone, is pushing for it? That would be North Carolina and not California. I wasn't even close. Anyway, you heard the question. So to pick up on the thoughts of Cathy and Ulrich and Anna and others, this idea of another referendum, in other words, another one following what happened in 2016 in the UK,

has bubbled away as a theme. They call themselves the People's Vote campaign and they've had some very well-attended marches through central London and elsewhere around the UK. But up until now, they've had some very well attended marches through central London and elsewhere around the UK but up until now they've never managed to persuade a majority of MPs that that is a good idea. A big factor behind that the sort of scepticism overall amongst MPs is that feeling regardless of an individual MP's view on Brexit originally that they kind of ought to deliver the result of the first one. And when you speak to people in the campaign wanting another referendum,

a lot of them acknowledge that their best chance to make their case is when they can definitively argue that the country has run out of better ideas. I think one of the problems and one of the reasons that the idea has kept bubbling away, as you put it, Chris, of the second referendum, is that the Brexit vote was so close. So, you know, the UK voted to leave by 52%. So that's just under half the country that says that wasn't my vote. And it's quite ironic that in the more than three years since the vote, as well as the UK preparing to leave, and by now, the EU leaders assumption is the UK is going to leave eventually, even if

it's in whatever it was 2059. But the UK in the meantime, has got the largest pro Europe movement in the EU. I mean, it's mad, isn't it really, you know that, but I think it's because like we've seen in the US, and like we've seen in many countries across the EU in the last three years and elections, politics has become a lot about identity, who I am, what I believe in, what I identify, rather than just voting with the same party that your family's always voted for. And Brexit sort of feeds into all of this. So there are people in the UK who've suddenly discovered this European identity they never particularly felt before, and they feel it's being stolen from them in the leave vote. On the other side, there are people who voted to leave and say, listen, that was my vote. It counts. You can't just discount it. And we have to leave as we voted for.

And this is what makes the debate not just political in the UK, but really emotional as well. Talking about North Carolina, I went there on holiday a few years ago and they have divisions of their own there, you know, over the recipe for pulled pork. One half of the state insists it's done one way and the other half decides it's the other. So you guys have a referendum about that. Then come and tell us about that. I think there's a really profound point here that during the referendum campaign, politicians on both sides, including the then prime minister, both said again and again and again and again, we will carry out what you decide. And it was used actually by the campaign to stay in the EU a lot, because they kept saying all the time, this is going to happen. If you vote this way, it will happen. So there are lots of MPs I talked to who are really worried about doing this at all, but who feel very strongly.

You can't say to people, oh, sorry, that vote doesn't count anymore. And that is why it's so fraught. And that is why it's never reached a majority in the House of Commons. Because also, what would another referendum offer is clarity. But, you know, no question, as the others have been saying, there's a very strong movement pushing for it, but they've never managed to get the numbers in the House of Commons. And I have to say, I'm afraid Brexit casters, if we did ever get there, they'd probably then be six months of arguing about what the question would be. Almost certainly. I mean, Katia and Adam, we've seen the marches here and we've seen that there is this resurgence of a European identity. What are people in

Strasbourg and Brussels saying about the possibility even of a second Brexit referendum over here? I think at the beginning of the process, well, more than just the beginning, there was massive hope on the European side that there would be a second referendum, and that the UK would change its mind when Theresa May asked for a Brexit extension. And when second referendum and that the UK would change its mind when Theresa May asked for a Brexit extension. And when it was clear that the UK wasn't leaving on the 29th of March, there were some very prominent leaders like the President of the European Council or the Chancellor of Germany who were thinking, you know what, if we give a long extension, then maybe that will give enough time for the UK to sort of think about it, realise that Brexit's difficult and just say, you know what, forget it, let's stay in.

In the meantime, EU leaders are pretty convinced this is going to happen. They'd hoped to give the process to Parliament because they thought MPs would at least want a softer Brexit. But Parliament hasn't been able to come to any conclusions either. And because of this uncertainty that I keep talking about, it costs European businesses and it's costing EU leaders politically at home as well. Well, their businesses are saying, look, just get on with this now. So they would like to get on with it. And Boris Johnson is right when he says EU leaders want to get on with it. But again, they feel they're misquoted by Boris

Johnson. If the UK is leaving, they want to get on with the leaving now, but this will not be the end of Brexit. This is Brexit phase one, the leaving part. And by the way, cover your eyes. It was supposed to be the easy part because phase two will be about negotiating the future relationship, a comprehensive trade agreement between the EU and the UK. And that will be very complex because the UK will bang up against really difficult political decisions and trade-offs that are part of trade negotiations, such as workers' rights after Brexit,

or fishing rights after Brexit, or the freedom to trade easily with the EU versus trading with other countries such as the United States. So that is all to come. And that's something that Michael Monzon, a listener, was very interested in. He was talking about what happens in the future, that this notion of get Brexit done is a little inaccurate. A lot of people seem to be using this phrase, get Brexit done, as if that's it done and dusted, and then we'll just get on with our lives as they were before. And of course, as you say, Katya, this

is just the easy bit. And then we move on to the next bit. Michael was asking about the sorts of trade relationships that the UK might seek with the USA, with China, and what the mechanics of a bilateral trade deal might actually be from scratch, how long it might take from scratch beyond just the buzzwords. Anyone? Well, I was going to say the thing about get brexit done i mean one has such mixed feelings about that phrase because okay you can see the argument when people say hang on it's not accurate because there's still loads still to do after brexit day has happened but then actually brexit the word itself is britain's exit from the eu And if all goes to plan and a deal goes through, that will have

happened. So is it accurate? Is it not? And in terms of trade deals, in terms of future trade deals, I mean, well, again, it's very uncertain. If you look at historical precedent, the EU's trade deal with Canada took seven years to negotiate. The EU's trade deal with the Mercosur nations of South America took like about 20 years to negotiate. But then you get the argument from lots of people in the UK. It's like, well, actually, we're starting off the UK and the EU from very similar places. So therefore, it should be pretty easy. But then you get people like the EU chief negotiator, Michel Barnier saying, yeah, yeah, but this is the first time ever the EU will be negotiating a trade deal for somebody moving further away. Normally, trade deals are about knocking down barriers.

This will be about establishing new ones. the new government wants to pursue a slightly different trade relationship than the one that's been sketched out now, which is different from the trade relationship that was sketched out by Theresa May when she was Prime Minister. It's your head hurting it. And there's one other point that you can see MPs worrying about now. You know, Adam told us about that transition period. So if there is a Brexit deal approved by Parliament in the UK and the European Parliament, we go into the standstill. Everything in practice stays the same for at least a year. That can be extended by another two years. But you can see MPs now saying to the Prime Minister,

but what happens after that? Because if this new UK-EU trade deal takes longer to negotiate than three years, then aren't we looking at a kind of a no deal scenario again, where the UK just defaults to trading with the EU on WTO terms? What can you do to protect us there? So again, this idea that no deal disappears, if you like, or this idea that, you know, there are no links preserved, that that disappears if this exit deal is approved isn't 100% right either. Just to give you, Jackie, a little insight into the sort of behind the curtain on Brexitcast is that we have this WhatsApp group

where when we're recording and it's happening right now, messages are pinging back and forth. I'm feeling very excluded. I know, we should have asked you, shouldn't we really? It's all full of compliments about you, Jackie. Yeah, yeah. About who's going to chip in with which question and all the rest of it.

Just a quick thought on that sort of get Brexit done thing because what was really striking at the Conservative Party conference, the governing party's conference in Manchester, what seems like an eternity ago, it was only about three weeks ago, was that that slogan, and that's what it is, was all over the place.

But what's powerful about it is that, of course, there are big questions to be asked about the UK's future relationship with the EU as and when the UK leaves. But it's powerful because of that sentiment shared by lots of people in the UK, regardless of their instinct on Brexit, about the extent to which it has dominated the national conversation for three years. And I think what's going to be fascinating, and we don't know the answer to this yet,

because the UK is still in the EU, is what happens if the UK finally does a deal, and Parliament signs it off, and a date is set, and the UK leaves does a deal and Parliament signs it off and a date is set and the UK leaves, psychologically, how big a moment is that? When the flag comes down in Brussels, when the MEPs, the members of the European Parliament, come back on the trains and the planes from Brussels and Strasbourg, when there's no longer a UK European commissioner, to what extent do people in the UK think that that is kind of the job done? Clearly, there's a huge

amount of technical stuff still to go on about that future relationship. But that kind of gut feeling amongst the population in the UK, I think could play a big role in shaping the political climate that determines how close or not that relationship is between the UK and the EU after Brexit. And of course, we don't know what that sentiment will feel like because it hasn't happened yet. I think it will be huge. I mean, I think it will be massive. Don't underestimate the amount of fatigue in politics and the amount of fatigue and frustration in the public that once we have left, that will change the landscape if it happens. Now, not for a second am I downplaying how tense, how fraught, how big, how difficult the trade relations,

the trade relationship negotiations will be in the future? But I think both political parties, both the big ones, are expecting that as and when we actually leave, we'll be looking at a very different landscape. And if you like, it will go back. The Tories certainly hope and they may well prove to be wrong. But it's possible that you sort of will go back to what politics used to be like before. We'll move forward to a more familiar environment where the issue between Europe and the UK, which has always been an issue in British politics, is something that bubbles up every now and again when there's a particular clash. And we sort of get off this sort of grisly roundabout that's going at five miles an hour that is just dominating absolutely everything else.

I think it was Mr Barnier who suggested that the door would always be open if we wanted to come back, the UK wanted to rejoin. Being as we haven't left yet, I realise this is a little precipitate. But if that were to happen, or if indeed Scotland were to leave the UK and wanted to join the EU as its own nation, how long does that take? Adam, you should enlighten listeners to the Global podcast podcast about your uh your journalistic relationship with Mr Barnier the the EU's chief Brexit negotiator which basically involves you chasing him down the street the whole time yeah two years chasing him down the street in the sandwich shop buying croissants yeah although um I've noticed though he's very charming to everyone so I don't think I've earned any extra brownie points. He says the same thing to everyone.

We're working. It's an ongoing process. That's his standard phrase. In terms of the rejoining, well, yeah, I mean, that's there as an option because if you look at the EU treaty, so the rule book for the EU, Article 50 of that treaty is the exit process. That is the ground rules that we've been living our lives by in the last two years. Right at the end

says, and if a country leaves under Article 50, and they want to rejoin, please see Article 49. Article 49 is the joining process for any country to come into the EU. In other words, the UK wouldn't necessarily get any special treatment different from say, Albania or North Macedonia, if it wanted to rejoinin having left. So yeah, Article 49, which I just love the fact that it's next to Article 50. Worth remembering, when Croatia joined, the most recent country to join, it took 13 years to actually get through the process of joining. So it ain't quick. So EU leaders who were devastated when the UK voted to leave and have spent a lot of this process, as I said, just really hoping the UK would change its mind. They now think Brexit is probably going to happen.

So that's the thing they're now moving their hopes onto is that they talk often about maybe in a generation, the UK will come back. Scotland is another issue because there is a lot of talk in the Scottish National Party about, you know, if Brexit happens, we'll want to hold a second referendum on their part of breaking away from the United Kingdom, and we'd want to join the EU. It will be complicated, because you have to take wider EU politics into account. Think about Spain, for example. So Spain has got an issue with its region of Catalonia, and there are separatists in Catalonia who'd like to break away and join the EU independently, but break away from Spain. Spain doesn't want to encourage Scotland independently to come into the EU, because it worries that the Catalans would say, look,

if Scotland can do it, we can do it. So it's not saying it would be impossible. You know, nothing is impossible. But certainly the odds are stacked against Scotland in that kind of scenario from an EU political point of view. Laura, you mentioned fatigue. And frankly, I've been a bit worried. Yes, I've been a bit worried about you. I actually brought cake in today because I am concerned about Chris and Laura and Adam and Katya not getting enough sleep, not getting enough to eat. It's actually lemon drizzle because it counts as fruit as well. Oh, I love lemon drizzle. Not just lemon.

Lovely. Zesty lemon and lime drizzle cake. Stick it in the BBC internal mail. Lime syrup and filled with Ritz lemon curd buttercream drizzled with zingy lime icing and a swirl of lemon curd. That's so nice chris maybe can take it chris can you take it home put it in the fridge and then bring it to work on monday i think that's a very good idea however moving away from the the confectionery

rich mauer in alaska just one final question he wondered just how much sheer exhaustion is featuring in what is happening now and what happens next. I'm going to dive straight in, if I may, on this, because I've got a hurdle across the road to Radio 2 in a minute. You're a busy man. I do the very Brexit cast thing where at least one of us disappears before the podcast is actually finished. I think the fatigue thing is quite a big deal, actually. I mean clearly plenty of people who have been won over to Boris Johnson's vision of Brexit versus previous British Prime Minister Theresa May's you know, will point to where they

think it is a better version of Brexit than hers was the whole row about the backstop, the Northern Ireland-Ireland border and how you keep that open under any circumstances yadda yadda yadda. But I think also, and Laurie you want to chip in on this, there's also that sense at Westminster now of people thinking yeah come on

we are three and a bit years on now that argument that is made that says this has to be delivered, delivering the will of the people as expressed in the referendum in 2016 becomes more powerful, more potent in the minds of some politicians the longer this process sort of drags on. I think that's

absolutely right and I think it's also something that the political parties hear back in their focus groups, because obviously in the UK, particularly because we might have an election soon, parties just like everyone else in the world, you know, they go out, they talk to people, they try to monitor what people are thinking and worrying about and excited about and happy about. And obviously, MPs hear it from their constituents as well. People say, what are you guys doing? You're just all kind of making a complete hash of this. And that's not about what side of the argument you're on. That's just people around the country looking at Westminster and thinking, what are you guys doing? You know, it's sort of like people don't necessarily recognise

the system anymore. I feel that sometimes. But where I also think it has a role, that kind of fatigue among MPs, is when you're tired, you're less likely to be reasonable. You may be more likely to be grumpy and fractious. And what we have seen on both sides, that's just me, what we've seen on both sides in politics, particularly I think in the last kind of six months is more and more mps who really aren't willing to listen to the other side of the argument and i think that kind of sense of fatigue and frustration instead of people going

okay time to compromise and come together it's actually i think for quite a lot of people it's pushed them further apart this is like this is such a mess and it's all your fault so therefore the only way out is to do what I want. It's like people have been getting more and more angry. And when things have gone wrong, they've used it as ways to confirm what they already believe, rather than sort of being able to find a compromise. So maybe if everybody had a nice long holiday. A lie down in a dark room.

There's also the threat of violence now against MPs. And this is a very worrying development. And we've had MPs on Brexit cars telling us about how it feels for them, you know, not feeling safe to open their front doors at night, threats made to MPs' children. This is sort of, you know, the height of emotion where it's not just the MPs who are grumpy and fed up and angry at those who don't share their view. But it does spread across to some members of the public as well. And I think there was that opinion poll out today, which did you see that, guys? You know, the one that suggested I mean, I can't quite believe this.

I don't know. But this is very careful with it. I can hear actually just as we talk about a very serious subject. I can hear knives and forks and all sorts of things happening over there. Sorry to hackle. I'm heckling you with drizzle cake. There is, I think, actually what has not necessarily been written up very fairly. There is a survey

that seems to portray a picture of people being ready to commit violence against MPs. And a lot of people have been worrying about whether or not that's been done in an entirely straightforward and accurate way. But there's definitely a lot of anxiety around, no question about that. And escorts for MPs leaving Parliament,

police escorts for MPs leaving Parliament, because of the heightened tensions. The cake, I'm distracted by the cake. The cake is very good. You're my, I'm Jackie, I'm distracted by the cake. The cake is very good. So am I. I'm Jackie. I'm answerful. Our attachment to cake, not only is because we love cake, because we do, but because also there was a lot of discussion straight away after the Brexit vote as to whether you can have your cake and eat it.

So, you know, this implication. There was an editorial justification for our cake consumption is what Katya was saying. Yeah, of course, there's always a justification, which is can you leave the EU and get rid of the quote unquote bad bits, all the boring bits, legislation and having to sort of make it give up power sharing in Brussels and all the rest of it. So can you leave all of that behind, but keep all the good bits, you know, and that's our excuse for cake, having a cake and eat it. That was a magnificent segue, Katya. Well done. Thank you very much. We are just seeing Chris disappearing out the door. He's waving. Yeah, he's eating and leaving. It's a heavy door, Chris, but it's fine.

Open it. Okay. So he is, he is heading off. I think that we have possibly used up enough of your time and expertise. So thank you very much indeed. We would like to say thank you to our listeners for paying attention to this, we hope, illuminating collaboration between the BBC World Service, Global News Podcast and Brexitcast. I'm sorry we couldn't provide concrete answers to everything because we can't. I'm sure people understand the fluid nature of this phenomenon, but I'm sure it helped. Please send your kind thoughts with hashtags to globalnewspod and thebrexitcast.

And our normal email address is globalpodcast at bbc.co.uk. I really shouldn't have just eaten that piece of cake. Thank you to our editors, Karen Martin, Dino Sofos, producer Judy Frankel, studio manager Tom Rolls, all the listeners who responded, including the ones that we didn't get around to. I'm sorry about that. If you want to listen to us again, you will find Brexitcast in the UK on BBC Sounds.

You will find the Global News podcast and Brexitcast outside the UK in all your usual poddy places. It just remains to thank Chris Mason, Laura Koonsberg, Katya Adler and Adam Fleming. I'm Jackie Leonard. Thank you and goodbye. Get current affairs podcasts like Global News, AmeriCast and The Global Story, plus other great BBC podcasts from history to comedy to true crime, all ad-free. Simply subscribe to BBC Podcast Premium on Apple Podcasts or listen to Amazon Music with a Prime membership. Spend less time on ads and more time with BBC Podcasts.