Global News Podcast - How will the next Pope be chosen?

Episode Date: May 5, 2025

How is a new Pope chosen? How long could the conclave last? In a special edition of the Global News Podcast, the BBC’s Religion Editor Aleem Maqbool answers listener questions on the conclave at the Vatican

Hello, you're listening to a special edition of the Global News Podcast. I'm Nick Miles and after the death of Pope Francis last month, all eyes are now on the Vatican, where cardinals will be electing the next pope. It's a centuries old and complicated process called the conclave. To answer listeners' questions about it, I'm joined by our religion editor, Alim MacBool, who's in Rome. So, Alim, many thanks for joining us from Rome. I'm going to start off with a very general question. What is the Conclave? Well, it is an incredibly exciting event to cover if you are a religion editor. It is an incredibly exciting event to cover if you are a religion editor. It is the selection of a new pope. Of course, there have been popes now for nearly 2,000 years.

It was the apostle of Jesus, Peter, who's considered by Catholics to be the first pope, after whom St. Peter's Basilica, St. Peter's Square is named. And there have subsequently been elections of popes since then. But it's over the last thousand years or so since 1059 that the next rung of clergy down from the Pope, the Cardinals have done the deciding as to who the next Pope will be. The reason it's called a conclave is because of an election that happened in the 1270s that was just going on and on and not all elections of popes have happened here at the Vatican by the way or even in Rome or even in Italy. They've happened in France even in the past as well. This particular one was going on in northern Italy further north and what

was happening was that the cardinals there were taking too long to decide, they'd taken many months, the people of the area got upset about this and how richly all the cardinals were eating during this time and so they decided to lock them in the Viterbo Palace until they came up with a decision. So conclave comes from the Latin conclave with a key and that's why this name for this extraordinary event came about and it's why it's been carried out in this way ever since. And Aleem, it is shrouded in secrecy, why is that such an important factor in this? Well for this election Cardinals are supposed to be be channeling God, they're not supposed to have any outside interference, there has been very political interference over the

centuries, various kings had vetoes and so on. This time round, as has been the case for generations, all of the cardinals taking part will take an oath at the beginning of proceedings to say that there will be no outside interference in the way they vote and they will be sworn to secrecy as well. And just so you know, it's not just them who have taken an oath of secrecy, it's everyone who will be working in the Vatican during that time, the drivers that will take the Cardinals from the Santa Marta guesthouse, which is where most of them are staying. There's an overflow as well.

It's the cleaners, it's the people who are providing them with food. They've all been sworn to secrecy. And if any Cardinal breaks that oath, the punishment is excommunication. So it's seen as extremely serious if something like that is broken. But for the entire period of the Conclave, all of the Cardinals will be staying essentially on the premises of the Vatican in this guest house. They will have access to no mobile phones or any other electronic items like that. They'll be able to read no newspapers. They'll have no communication

with the outside world. They'll move from the guest house each day to the Sistine Chapel, a stunning chapel of course with some of the most famous frescoes in the world painted by Michelangelo of course, and that is the holiest of voting chambers if you like for the coming days. So there can be up to four votes a day. The first we'll hear of anything having been decided is when we see smoke from the chimney. It'll be black smoke when the voting papers are burnt if there's no decision, but if there is a two thirds majority on any single candidate then we will see white smoke and it's after that that the new Pope will walk out on the balcony of St Peter's behind me. Aleem, they're not going to be inside the Sistine Chapel the whole time. By any means they will eat together, during which time one imagines the Cardinals will speak to each other.

Whilst they have been encouraged to allow the Holy Spirit to guide them in their voting process. One imagines there will be groupings of Cardinals, they'll be speaking together, they will have their favourite candidate, so there will be machinations going on. Yes, actually that has already been happening since the death of Pope Francis. Cardinals, of course, were descending on Rome from that moment. Some are based here. In the past, though, a lot of the cardinals will have known each other very well. A lot of them would have been from Italy. This is the most diverse conclave there has ever been. It is the first time in history that the majority of cardinals are not from Europe. So there is a sense that this time round they are getting to know each other. So a lot of the time between

the funeral and the beginning of Conclave there have been congregations as they're called, usually morning sessions. They haven't been really places where people can sit in groups and talk. They've been quite old-fashioned in a sense where people can talk for five minutes from a stage and everyone else listens. But that is, although what we heard from inside those congregations was that it wasn't about people making a pitch as such, it was certainly about some cardinals who won't be able to take part because of age in the conclave process and others at least being able to bring together what they think are the important elements of where the church

is, what the problems are and what the solutions are. So there's already been some formal gathering over the past couple of weeks where that's taken place, but there have also been dinners, coffees and other ways by which people have been getting together. And although we're told not to look at this as a political process, there are political factions. And I know that some of those political with a small p factions have been getting together those who are perhaps more conservative, those who are seen as more progressive but then the diversity

in this conclave is not just about political view, it's about where people are from so it's the languages that people speak that group them together it is their geographical location. The African cardinals have got to know each other quite well. There's a sense that perhaps some of them could vote as a bloc. There are certainly some dominant characters,

as you'd imagine, for example, in jury deliberations. There are some strong characters that are seen as potential kingmakers, those who can influence others. But as you rightly said, they're supposed to leave all of that at the door, they're supposed to let God and the Holy Spirit guide them. But we know there are other things at play. There have been a number of names mentioned already for frontrunners. Could you talk us through them?

Yes, as I say, this, because of the diversity of the conclave, is perhaps one of the most unpredictable conclaves there's ever been. We know that Pope Francis was not on the list of favourites last time round, although he had done quite well here in 2005. We're not supposed to know who came second and third, but we know he did relatively well in 2005. He wasn't being talked about as a favourite before 2013 and before he walked out on that balcony. Having said that, because we've got Cardinals from all over the world there are some being talked of as favourites simply because these are the ones that most of the Cardinals will already know and that is certainly the case with

the Cardinal Pietro Parolin who was the Secretary of State for Pope Francis, was essentially his right-hand man, he was his emissary and we know over the last 2,000 years there have been 266 popes, 213 of them have been not just European but Italian and Pietro Peroline is another of them. He is seen as a pragmatist but very much seen as a diplomat and if people are thinking now, if the Cardinals are thinking we need stability, we need order, we had a very consequential papacy under Pope Francis where he was seen as quite radical in the way he changed the tone, he reached out to the peripheries of the Catholic world but also reached out to other faiths for example, people of no faith. If cardinals are thinking they do want to

sort of cement that in a more perhaps ordered way then Pietro Parolin might be the man. Another one who's high on a lot of the favorites lists, if you take a look around what bookmakers are talking about right now, is Cardinal Luis Tagli from the Philippines, a place where Catholicism is expanding, is energized and some call him the Asian Francis. There are a lot of people who talked of him that way. There's the Mexican Francis or the baby Bergoglio for example, but he's known as the Asian Francis because he saw things in a very similar way to Pope Francis in terms of social issues, the dignity of migrants, a reorientation of the church more towards the poor and away from the clerical, away from the hierarchy here. There are those who think

perhaps he is not necessarily a unifying figure, that he's too much of a progressive and what I'm hearing as a theme or what I've heard over the last couple of weeks as a theme from various cardinals is they want something of a unifying figure and some form of stability. But you do have lots of different political perspectives, if you like, represented. There is Cardinal Erdo from Hungary who's seen as a strong conservative voice. You have various African cardinals, Peter Tuckson being one of them, again a strong conservative voice, but we're told to not look at the top rung of favourites if previous conclaves are anything to go by. So there

are lots of things that are being looked at, like I say a unifying figure, someone who will provide clarity, someone who understands what it is to bridge a gap between the Catholic Church and those outside the Church, other faiths, conflict resolution is part of the discussion as well. But then they're also looking for someone who is a statesman. Remember, you're talking about somebody who is governing what is a country, the Vatican City State, the smallest country in the world. So you're talking about someone who's a manager of all the Dicasteries or ministries of that as well. So there are lots

and lots of factors at play. Two thirds of the Cardinals need to vote for one particular candidate, for that person to become the next Pope. With all the different issues that you're talking about at stake it seems a very complex process to come up with a decision. Is it going to take that long? Normally over the last 20-30 years it hasn't taken that long but historically it can go on for a long time can't it? It can do. There's only been one occasion in the last hundred years when a conclave has taken up to five days. We're talking usually about a couple of days.

I mean it is designed as something that is over with relatively quickly and given that it's been a pretty tumultuous time for the church, I think partly as a product of where we are as a world right now, where there has been cultural division and there is a product of where we are as a world right now, where there has been cultural division and there is a sense that people don't want to give a sign to the outside world that the church is divided and so I think a lot of them would like a quick resolution here rather than this being drawn. But yes, I mean, look, there was one conclave that went on for two and a half years. I don't think we're likely to get anywhere near that. They will vote for a couple of days and if it goes beyond that there will be a day's rest and prayer and the voting will pick up again. For a short period it was decided that they would

lower the threshold if you like after 33 votes or 34 votes in some cases so it would be a straight majority but Pope Benedict XVI who was the predecessor of Pope Francis of course decided to do away with that and it's gone back to always being at two-thirds of the College of Cardinals that has to come up with a figure around whom they coalesce. So we're back to that but even with it being two-thirds majority and with all of the factors at play, we still get the sense that it will be over with relatively quickly. Alim, just a couple of questions from listeners.

Who chooses the name for the new pope and why is John the most popular name? Well, the pope themselves, the candidate themselves who wins chooses the name that they want to be known as. It actually was a tradition that started because there was a cardinal whose name was Peter and he thought it might be offensive if he was called Pope Peter because of the first Pope as we were discussing earlier. So he decided to choose a different name and since then, Popes have tended to choose new names certainly for the last few centuries and John is a name that's been popular because John the evangelist known from the gospel of course and there are those who want to pay tribute to John and

Others who have wanted since to pay tribute to popes who've been called a certain name so some have paid tribute to popes who've been called a certain name. So some have paid tribute to popes who've been called John. And there are others who have chosen their name because of a particular saint they want to pay homage to. That's certainly the case for Pope Francis. You do get a sense perhaps, and you certainly did with Pope Francis, about how the name gave us a sense of what his focus was going to be. He always said he wanted his focus to be on the peripheries. He very early on gave the signal that he wanted this to be about

simplicity, about focusing on the poor away from ostentatiousness and that's why he chose the name of Francis. After we've seen the white smoke we will get an announcement from the Dean of the College of Cardinals about which Cardinal has been selected, elected and what they want to be known as and it's a little while after that that we'll see them actually appear on the balcony. And at that point we will have some kind of words from the new pope. What do they usually say? Yes, I mean it'll be the first blessing that the pope will give to the crowds. There will be some sense of some of the focus of what they want their papacy to be about but it will be not necessarily a formal homily as such or speech but something relatively short relatively relaxed but that will be the

first blessing there'll be something more formal a few days later in the form of a mass that will be presided over by the new Pope but I imagine when that announcement is made when we have the appearance on the balcony, we'll suddenly have, perhaps like no other figure in the world, we'll have sudden interest in the background of one person, we'll have a dissection of their life, their career, what their papacy will look like. And that's just because of how important that figure has become on the world stage and I would suggest Pope Francis made it more so. He was

quite political, he was seen as someone who wanted to be involved in conflict resolution, he wanted to talk about the world's issues of the day and you know when it came to climate change, when it came to the dignity of migrants for example, I think there are lots of cardinals who see, yes, of course it was an incredibly elevated position. We're talking about someone considered to be God's representative on earth. One of the official titles is the Vicar of Jesus Christ. That in itself, of course, is a hugely elevated role. But there are some who think that certainly in terms of global dialogue, Pope Francis

meant that there's all the more interest in the character that's elected him. And finally, Alim, you mentioned it's been a tumultuous time for the Catholic Church and the world. What are the challenges facing any new Pope? Look, there are the administrative challenges on the inside if you like, things that Pope Francis dealt with to some extent, corruption, financial corruption, also issues of abuse. Certainly Pope Francis took what some see as big strides forward there in terms of apologising for abuse in the past. He's certainly met a lot with abuse survivors, but it's felt that while he changed some of the rules, he tried to implement some things

to stamp out abuse around the world, its implementation in different parts of the world has been patchy and it's really left to the next Pope to make sure there's an even application of some of those moves to ensure financial regularity and also when it comes to dealing with abuse. And then of course the the big issues that Pope Francis as I said championed which were global causes like the environment. Pope Francis talked about it being damage inflicted on the poor by rich countries and that's another theme, poverty, inequality around the world and you know that that's another complication of this process. The church and what it has to deal with looks very different depending

on where you are in the world. In some places it is about Catholic communities surviving where they are the minority and reaching out or under military dictatorships or where a lot of the faithful there are living in poverty and are struggling to feed themselves every day or living through conflict. And in Europe for example it's dealing with churches that are emptier and emptier by the year. It's about evangelizing, attracting people back. So there are different issues for those Catholic leaders in different parts of the world. So it's addressing all of those things and all the while trying to bring along the 1.4 billion Catholics around the world and you know Pope Francis saw it as part of his mission really to welcome more people into the church he said that we were all a part of the

church whether you're Catholic or not whether you're divorced or not whether you're homosexual or not poor rich wherever you are in the world there is a sense that some of the Cardinals want to continue that work in the future. Alain McBall, many thanks for joining us. You've been listening to a special Conclave Explainer from the Global News Podcast. If you have any feedback or stories you want to hear more about, you can email globalpodcast.bbc.co.uk. You can also find us on X at BBC World Service.

Use the hashtag globalnewspot. This edition was mixed and produced by Isabella Jewell. The editor is Karen Martin. I'm Nick Miles and until next time, goodbye.