Global News Podcast - Russia says no role for Europe in Ukraine peace talks

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says there’s no role for Europe in Ukraine peace talks as he heads to Saudi Arabia for talks with the US. Meanwhile, European leaders hold an emergency summit in Paris.

This is the Global News podcast from the BBC World Service. I'm Valerie Sanderson and at 1400 Hours GMT on Monday the 17th of February, these are our main stories. Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov speaks about the idea of European leaders being invited to talks between the US and Russia on ending the war in Ukraine. I don't know what they should do at the negotiating table. If they're going to weedle out some sly ideas about freezing the conflict, then why invite them there?

The Israeli cabinet is due to discuss the hostage situation. The Vatican says Pope Francis is being treated for a complex clinical situation in Rome. Also in this podcast, we follow the stories of young people in Gaza and hear about their hopes and fears for the future. My greatest hope is that the ceasefire continues and Gaza goes back to what it was before or even better but my biggest fear is that the war will return. And with days to go until Germany's elections, far-right AFD members are campaigning against immigration. We start with the apparent warming of the relationship between the United

States and Russia. The direct talks between the two countries on ending the war in Ukraine could be just the first step, with Moscow and I speaking about aiming for a whole-scale restoration of ties. The Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says European leaders should not be invited to talks if they want to continue the war in Ukraine. I don't know what they should do at the negotiating table. If they're going to weedle out some sly ideas about freezing the conflict, while they themselves, in keeping with their customs and their character and habits, have in mind the continuation of the war, then why invite them there? Against this backdrop, the French President Emmanuel Macron has convened an emergency summit

for European leaders in Paris to coordinate a response to the decision to open talks with Russia without Kiev or others at the table. I spoke to Lisa Focht from BBC Russian who's in Paris. Lavrov just made it clear that Russia is mostly interested in talking to the US and Saudi Arabia. Those talks are an absolute priority for Moscow and I think it's interesting that Russian President Vladimir Putin, he has yet to comment on those recent developments,

his phone call with President Trump, or the mixed messages from American officials visiting Europe. But it's clear that in the Kremlin's eyes, Moscow can only engage in meaningful negotiations on Ukraine with the US. The power, Russia sees both its greatest rival, but at the same time, it's only true equal. And I think Foreign Minister Lavrov remarks clearly shows that. Having said that, I think the division among Ukrainian allies plays very well into Moscow's hands. And you can see it from his speech too. He said that there's no point for Europeans to be at the negotiating table because he doesn't really think that they have anything to offer.

And it's interesting that the conversation in Moscow right now is centered on the concessions Ukraine might have to make and the growing tensions between Washington, D.C. and remarks about the possibility of sending peacekeeping mission in Ukraine might be interested and will certainly draw Moscow's attention, because it's a change of narrative, but we'll of course have to see what's going to be the latest on that so far. The level of just, as always, expressed skepticism about such mission. And what do you think Moscow's view of European countries is? I mean is there a belief they can deal with some and not others, sowing disunity among the group? There's a very popular phrase in Moscow which is a collective West, so I think that to a certain extent in Moscow people view Europe as a single entity which is completely controlled by the United States. This is why some state media call it humiliation caused by American officials' visit last year played so well into Moscow's hand.

I think there are certain leaders like Hungarian Viktor Orban, like other people who could play their part in it, but right now I think Moscow just doesn't see Europe as its equal partner. Lisa Voigt. Well European powers including Britain, France and Germany insist they want to be a part of any future negotiations over Ukraine. The British Prime Minister Keir Starmer who will be in Paris has already confirmed that the UK is prepared to put soldiers on the ground in Ukraine. Here's our correspondent Andrew Harding. We have to temper our expectations. There aren't going to be big announcements, no significant diplomatic breakthroughs, but this is a show of European unity. So the

leaders of France, of Germany, of the UK, of Poland, Italy, Spain, Denmark, all meeting here along with NATO and EU officials. Of course, they are going to be pushing back against the extraordinary aggression, rhetorical aggression from the US in recent days and be expressing their concern about what we are hearing now about plans for a rapprochement, a very quick rapprochement potentially between the US and Russia. Also insisting on the importance of Europe and Ukraine being part of any negotiating process. But as well as that,

the Europeans are starting to talk detail in terms of what if the Americans and the Russians and the Ukrainians do agree to a peace deal? What role for European troops? Britain now saying it could commit troops. The Swedish also saying that. The Germans saying it is too early at the moment to talk about that. But clearly, if, and it is still a very big if, there is some sort of ceasefire, then Europe's role is going to be very important. Europe also, though, wanting to underline the importance of American security guarantees. Europe, yes,

can play its role, but without those American guarantees under the NATO charter, there is a concern that Russia might simply exploit this moment and the years ahead to test European resolve and perhaps to push the continent back towards war. Andrew Harding in Paris. The next phase of Israel's ceasefire with Gaza is due to be discussed by the Security Cabinet in Jerusalem later. It's meant to include the freeing of the remaining Israeli hostages as well as a withdrawal from Gaza.

Amidlis regional editor Sebastien Usher is in Jerusalem. Well we're in the last two weeks of the first phase there are still 14 Israeli hostages due to be freed from Gaza in this phase and then there's the second phase and negotiations were meant to have begun on that indirectly between Israel and Hamas through the mediators Qatar Egypt and the US more than two weeks ago now but but that hasn't happened. So there is concern that the second phase in which all the remaining hostages are due to be released and Israel troops are due to withdraw completely from Gaza, there's some doubt about whether that will go ahead as was originally envisaged in the three-stage plan. That could have a

knock-on effect on the third phase, which looks at the future of Gaza as a whole when the hostilities are ended. There is, as you were saying, going to be a security cabinet meeting in Israel later today and we've been hearing that that will discuss the second phase. We've also been hearing that Mr Netanyahu, the Prime Minister, wants to hear from the ministers in that cabinet, the other members of the Security Cabinet, about what they feel about the second phase and depending on what he hears, he will then give instructions to a negotiating team that's been sent to Cairo still to discuss the first phase at the moment but may give them instructions on how they're to negotiate this second phase.

So given the apparent total opposition of Arab states to the US President Donald Trump's plans to clear out Gaza of its population, can those Arab states offer a compelling alternative plan? Bisha Al-Khassani was Jordan's Prime Minister between 2020 and September 2024 and he told Tim Franks what he thinks is the way forward. The Arabs are collectively subscribed to a longer-term vision that does entail a management approach the day after and that management approach could be one that sees an unpartisan entity that's agreed upon managing affairs, but that has to be in the context of a longer term vision that entails a clear and irreversible political horizon

that leads to closure on the front of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and that is based on the two-state solution. If you're talking about a technocratic government then for Gaza or some sort of administration for Gaza... A transitional non-partisan entity. OK, so non-partisan, so that means, obviously by definition, it would mean nobody who's affiliated with Hamas who have been running the Gaza Strip and it also suggests no one from Fatah which dominates the Palestinian Authority. Is that correct? In the context of particularly the Palestinian Authority, this is the legitimate Palestinian entity that is the product of a discourse that has lasted for the past 30 years. It

has been systematically eroded as a partner by successive Israeli governments, but inevitably the Palestinian Authority being the legitimate representative of the Palestinians will have to play that fundamental role eventually in that longer-term plan and it will inevitably have a certain say. OK. So you've sketched out the possibility of some sort of, as you put it, non-partisan transitional administration. I guess Israel may well ask the question, even if it were to buy into your vision, what security guarantees can you give us?

Tim, if this does not lock in an Israeli commitment to a political horizon that's irreversible in the direction of a clear-cut political commitment, nobody will be willing to partake in committing troops or boots on the ground or any aspect if it is confined to the management era of that longer-term vision. And the lack of the political horizon is fundamentally what has led to several episodes of the outbreak of hostilities and tensions in Gaza repeatedly. Bishop Al-Khassani speaking to Tim Franks. The Vatican says doctors have had to change treatment

for Pope Francis' respiratory tract infection to tackle what's called a complex clinical situation. It's said he'd remain in hospital for as long as necessary, as Bethany Bale reports from Rome. Pope Francis, who's been in hospital since Friday for this respiratory tract infection is now showing signs of what they call a complex clinical situation and they say he'll have to remain in hospital for some time. We're also told by the Vatican spokesman Matteo Bruni that the Pope is in good spirits, but he has been

ill for a little while now. He's had these what appear to be symptoms like bronchitis for a few days. He was admitted into hospital on Friday. We were told over the weekend his situation was stable, but he was unable to perform his weekly prayer for worshippers who come to Rome on Sundays, the Angelus Prayer. You know, he is 88 years old, he's had lung problems in the past, he had to have part of one of his lungs removed when he had pleurisy as a young man and he has been not well for the past few days, but we do know now that he will be staying in hospital for a bit longer than planned. Bethany Bell in Rome been not well for the past few days, but we do know now that he will be staying in hospital for a bit longer than planned.

Bethany Bell in Rome. Still to come in the Global News podcast. We try to make a movie that's not in a bubble, that sort of reflects humanity and our weaknesses and strengths and regrets and sins and our past lives. We hear from the director of Conclave, a film which picked up four awards at this year's BAFTAs. A new BBC documentary has spent the last nine months following the lives of four young people in Gaza as they try to survive the Israel-Hamas war and hope for a lasting ceasefire. The filmmakers remotely directed two cameramen

on the ground to tell the children's stories. We meet Renad, a ten-year-old food blogger who dreams of being a chef and the film's narrator is Abdullah. I'm 13 years old. I'm stuck here in Gaza. Today I'm revisiting Khajoun's camp. This area used to be colorful. Now it's gray, just gray. Among the rubble, I find what's left of my grandfather's house. Everything's changed since the war started. I was in the best school in Gaza, the British school in the north. All my lessons were in English. Now I'm living in a tent.

On my way back, I find a crowd of people fleeing the eastern areas of Kanyuls. When the Israeli army call an evacuation order, you have to leave fast or it can be deadly. They have killed our children, killed our women, while Sinwar is hiding underground. Hamas is shooting back. You have to find something to distract you from the constant pressure of this war. During the war, there is no school, no place for us to play, so I upload videos and talk to my followers. Renat's 10, she started an online cooking show with her sister. They're lucky enough to still live in their own home and film her videos on the roof. While they film, there's an interruption, as bombs fall nearby.

We're not afraid anymore. We're used to it, even in the middle of the night. I'm not scared. My family moved south to be in the safe zone. But last night, close to my place, the Israeli army hit the camp with huge bombs. 19 people were killed. I've come to see the damage.

This camp was filled with tents. They got buried underground. Oh my god. How many missiles did they fire? Four? No, it was six. They said there was a secret room for Hamas. We live here. There are no Hamas leaders in this area. Even for one or two. Is it right to kill so many people?

Every day there are more evacuation orders. We mainly get these by phone, texts and social media. Urgent message. You are required to evacuate the designated humanitarian zone. The Israel Defense Forces will be conducting full-scale operations against terrorist organizations. Renat's family are preparing in case they need to leave fast. In the end, Renad was able to stay in her house, and now she has reached a million followers.

But balls are still dropping in the safe zone. We were just sitting here when a bombing suddenly went off. The blast was so loud and there's gunfire too. We were also fighting right now. The war seems like it's been going on forever. Then there's an announcement. Renat's gone to watch at a cafe with her brother. Now I have hope. The ceasefire is starting. People are going to see what's left of their homes. My house was completely destroyed, so my family have found an apartment.

It's damaged, but it's better than the tents. And I just turned 14. I got old. I'm getting old, actually. My mustache is growing. My greatest hope is that the ceasefire continues and Gaza goes back to what it was before, or even better. But my biggest fear is that the war will return.

Voices from the new BBC documentary Gaza, How to Survive a War Zone. China's President Xi has taken part in a rare choreographed meeting with some of the biggest names in China's technology sector, including the Alibaba founder Jack Ma, who's been in and out of favour with the communist government. The entrepreneur behind the AI chatbot DeepSeek was also there, alongside the head of China's electric carmaker BYD. Our Asia-Pacific regional editor Celia Hatton told me more. I mean it really is jaw-dropping if you know the story behind some of the people who attended this meeting. You mentioned Jack Ma. He was at one time China's richest man.

He was getting almost as much attention internationally as Xi Jinping, China's leader, but then he disappeared from public view for a few months. He's now clearly back in the Communist Party's favor. I think this was almost sort of the opposite. It was China's answer to what we saw at the inauguration of Donald Trump almost a month ago, when we saw U.S. tech billionaires all lined up to kind of give homage to to Donald Trump coming into office. This is when we saw China's tech leaders all lined up today,

literally lined up in a very formal meeting, wearing almost identical clothing, watching as Xi Jinping flanked by his Communist Party inner circle, all kind of walking into the room and having a very formal, very, very serious meeting. And it really was meant to illustrate the end of China's tech crackdown. I mentioned the disappearance of Jack Ma in 2020. That sort of signaled the start of a huge regulatory crackdown on technology companies by the Chinese government. They refined collectively billions of dollars.

They lost trillions in market value, and they were subject to a huge influx of laws and regulations imposed on them by the Communist Party, who was really worried at the time that they were getting out of control, out of hand, and the Communist Party needed to reassert its influence. Now we're seeing the party and Xi Jinping really admitting that this kind of private technology, private development is what the Chinese economy really needs. So what is the future going forward? I mean what is it all about? Well we heard Xi Jinping say today that it's the right time for private enterprises and

entrepreneurs to showcase their talent. So I think what we're going to see going forward is the submission from the party that they need to let these private companies go back to doing what they do best. And you mentioned that the creator of DeepSeek was at this meeting. I think DeepSeek, the low-cost AI chatbot, is a really good example of what private Chinese companies can do if they're sort of left to their own devices. And it's no surprise that DeepSeek is a small company that was really off the radar of the Chinese authorities, and it was able to do what it wanted to do using local talent. And I think really that's propelled the Chinese government to look beyond what it's been doing so far and to allow private

companies to go further because the Chinese economy really isn't doing very well. And I think the Communist Party is recognizing that their solution so far, their attempts to beef up state-owned huge companies really isn't working and that they need to look to where the innovation is coming and that's from private companies like the one that created DeepSeek. Celia Hatton. There's less than a week to go until Germany's national elections and tensions between the parties are at an all-time high amid controversy over alleged US interference in favour of the far-right AFD party. It's certainly the party with the strongest stance on tightening migration policies. Germany took in close to 900,000

migrants at the peak of Europe's migration crisis ten years ago and at that time back in 2015 the BBC visited Oberhausen in West Germany to find out how the area was coping. A decade on, we have returned and discovered that attitudes have shifted as our Berlin correspondent Jess Parker reports. I'm at the home of Alia and her 10-year-old son Rami. They live in a one-bed apartment in West Germany. Thanks God that we are in our home. Alias learned German and is grateful to her adopted country, but believes some migrants have integrated more than others.

For 10 years it was very welcoming, but after more problems, the people said, Ausländer raus. Foreigners out. Yes. That was really sad for me because we are not actually bad because we don't want to live in this situation also. We just got into Averhausen, it's a Saturday lunchtime, and we stumbled into a demonstration pretty much on arrival. It's a demonstration against the far-right party Alternative für Deutschland. I want that my country wants people to get here

if they are in trouble. Here's at the demo with friends and family. That's what you want to keep, a generous asylum policy. Do you think that is where Germany is gonna end up in the next few years? I don't think so. There is so much tension now around immigration. Do you therefore think some mistakes have been made

in the way successive governments have handled this issue? Maybe yes. Maybe they didn't thought about the things enough. They said, yeah, we will do it. We'll manage. We'll make it. Angela Merkel. Yeah, she said it.

Some breaking news that's coming into us from Germany. We'll manage. We'll manage. We'll make it. Angela Merkel. Yeah, she said it. Breaking news that's coming into us from Germany. A vehicle has been driven into a group of people in... A string of fatal attacks involving suspects who've been asylum seekers has intensified Germany's fraught migration debate. 66-year-old Georg has lived in the Oberhausen most of his life. I meet him strolling near the local park. Does he now want tougher border controls?

It's hard. There has to be security. Not like it is right now. It has to change. A heated argument breaks out at a campaign stand for the AfD party between two men of colour and a local AFD activist, Jörg Lange. We heard you tell him to go back to his own country. I mean, he grew up here. That is clear racism, no? No, that's not racism.

How is it not? I mean, he personally attacked me. He said, you're a Nazi. And then of course you have to say, if something doesn't suit you here in Germany, then you can go back. I catch up with the two men involved in the argument, Kwame and Pratep. He told us to go back. I catch up with the two men involved in the argument, Kwame and Pratep.

He told us to go back. Go back is like three streets away from here. Like, where should we go back? We grew up over here. We've done everything. We have kids here. In Germany, do you see the attitudes have changed? Yeah.

The last four or five years, yeah. Back at home with Alia and Rami, a boy who's the same age as Europe's migration crisis. He dreams of being a doctor, footballer or policeman. As he decides his future, so does Germany. Jessica Parker. The Oscars are in two weeks' time but a good indicator of what might happen there has just taken place at the British Academy Film and Television Awards or BAFTAs. It's the most important night in British film and TV and one of the big winners was the Vatican thriller Conclave which got four awards including Best Film. Our entertainment correspondent Colin Patterson

was at the Royal Festival Hall here in London and spoke to winners as soon as they came off stage. This was a night when BAFTA picked a picture about picking the Pope. The Pope is dead. Conclave did the double, winning both Best Film and Outstanding British Film. Backstage, Conclave's German director, Edward Berger, was in a very buoyant mood. I'm living here, I love it here. Two years ago, he directed the best film at the BAFTAs, All Quiet on the Western Front.

Now he's delighted that Conclave's making a big noise. We try to make a movie that's not in a bubble, that sort of reflects humanity and our weaknesses and strengths and regrets and sins and our past lives. It was also a good night for Anora, an American indie film which rather unexpectedly starts with a lengthy scene in a strip club set to the sound of Take That's Greatest Day. They sang the song during the ceremony. I was so happy they were able to reunite and perform. Have you met any of them tonight?

No, but I met Gary before. It's star, Mikey Madison, one best actress, dedicating her award to sex workers because she plays one in the film. This incredible community of people who deserve respect and don't often get it, I think. The Brutalist took home four awards, with Adrian Brody winning Best Actor for his performance as a Hungarian architect Holocaust survivor. There was a war on, and yet many of the sites of my projects had survived.

While Brady Corbett was named Best Director for the three-hour hour and 35 minute epic. It's famously got the intermission in it. What do you do with your 15 minutes when you're watching the film? I usually have a panic attack. Hopefully people use it to smoke, make love, I don't know, whatever you can do in 15 minutes. Finally, one word of caution for Conclave. In the last decade, only two winners of Best Film at BAFTA have gone on to repeat the Oscars. All will be revealed in two weeks' time. Indeed it will. That was Colin Patterson. And that's it from us for now, but there will be a new edition of the Global News podcast later. If you want to comment on this podcast or the topics covered in it, send us an email. The address is globalpodcast.bbc.co.uk. You can also find us on X at BBC World Service.

Use the hashtag at globalnewspod. This edition was mixed by Chris Lovelock. The producer was Isabella Jewell, the editor is Karen Martin. I'm Valerie Sanderson, until next time, bye bye.