Global News Podcast - The fighting between Pakistan and India is intensifying

Episode Date: May 9, 2025

Pakistan accuses India of bringing them closer to a major conflict while India said it repulsed Pakistani assaults. Also: Robert Prevost's "head was in his hands" when he became pope and the Soviet spacecraft's return.

This BBC podcast is supported money anywhere in the world. 12 million customers managing their international money with WISE can't be wrong. Download the WISE app today or visit World Service. I'm Andrew Peach and in the early hours of Saturday the 10th of May these are our main stories. As cross-border strikes continue for a fourth night in divided Kashmir and beyond neither India nor Pakistan seems willing to de-escalate. A fellow US Cardinal has described how Robert Priebus overcame a flash of what seemed to be anguish at the daunting responsibility of becoming the next pope. Also in this podcast... Your chances of being hit by this particular spacecraft are very much smaller than your chances of being hit by lightning at any point in your life.

A Soviet spacecraft is to re-enter the Earth's atmosphere. atmosphere. There have been explosions, air raid sirens and blackouts across the disputed region of Kashmir and beyond as India and Pakistan continue trading drone and missile attacks. The Indian state of Punjab has been targeted in what's likely to be seen by Delhi as a significant escalation. Pakistan has accused India of bringing the two nuclear-armed neighbours closer to a major conflict. India said that it offered a befitting reply to Pakistani attacks. India launched a series of strikes on Wednesday in what it said was retaliation for Pakistani involvement

in last month's killing of Hindu tourists in Indian-administered Kashmir. Islamabad denies any involvement in that. I heard more from our South Asia regional editor and Barisan Ethirajan in Delhi. This evening once again we are getting reports of drones and other projectiles, according to Indian officials, being fired from the Pakistani side. Several towns, big cities have gone on blackout like Ferozpur and some in Rajasthan and in Indian-administered Kashmir. These are all like cities very close to the border or not very far from the border. Indian officials say that air defense systems are countering these drones. In the same time there are reports of once again

artillery being exchanged between the two sides along the line of control that divides the Kashmir region between India and Pakistan. So the tension continues. being exchanged between the two sides along the line of control that divides the Kashmir region between India and Pakistan. So the tension continues, it is escalating and earlier in the day both India and Pakistan, the spokespeople for the both sides have been accusing each other of sending in drones in dozens against each other's targets. Both claim that some military targets were damaged. We have no way of verifying these claims. But what it shows is that how, it is step by step, the intensity of this skirmish is going on, going up a notch every day. And that is a danger

here, you know, where nobody knows how this is going to end. And despite the world powers and urging restraint, both sides are continuing with this artillery and drone exchange. Lots of claims and counterclaims as you say. India have been saying that Pakistan are using commercial flights as shields. That's what the Indian military people and the spokespeople have been saying this afternoon that when they were launching these drones, there were a couple of civilian flights over the Pakistani airspace and they were showing a map.

But again, we cannot verify this. This is the claim made by the Indian officials. And on the other side, just a short while after the Indian press conference ended in Delhi, the Pakistani military spokesperson was saying that we are not going to de-escalate. They started it. They have done a lot of damage on the ground, so we have to retaliate at some point. So you can see the hardening of positions from both capitals here. So if anything the rhetoric at the moment is still being ramped up, no one's talking the thing down, the rhetoric is still escalating. The rhetoric is escalating and it is being matched by things on the ground. If it is true, then this is the first time what we are talking about drone warfare between

two nuclear armed rivals. And this is not like ordinary drones. They are exploding and one exploded near Lahore where India says one of the air defence system was taken out and near Rawalpindi in Pakistan And again some of these drones were exploding even on the Indian side We are walking into a very dangerous territory where the two countries, I mean adversaries They had that fought three wars before for the first time They're using this drone warfare now when they exhaust or when one side commits more damage We don't know what is going to happen next. What will be the next step. That is a big worry here.

I was embarrassing at the Rajan with me from Delhi. A Cardinal from the United States has said when his compatriot Robert Prevost realised he might be chosen as the next Pope, he put his head in his hands. Joseph Tobin said although the prospect of leading the Roman Catholic Church was daunting, the fear was then overcome. I took a look at Bob, and because his name had been floating around, and he had his head in his hands. And I was praying for him because I couldn't imagine

what happens to a human being when you're facing something like that. And then when he accepted it, it was like he was made for it. He just, all of whatever anguish was resolved by the feeling that I think that this wasn't simply his saying yes to a proposal, but God had made something clear and he agreed with it. Pope Leo was previously Bishop of Chiclayo in Peru. He'd often say that he'd come from

Chicago to Chiclayo and the only difference was a few letters. Correspondent Ioni Wells is in Chiclayo. All the front pages here in Chiclayo this morning were hailing his election saying that the Pope is Peruvian and just around the main square here near the banners with his face on it celebrating this election I think there's a real sort of sense of pride in the same way that there was in Argentina when Pope Francis was elected. I think people feel a kind of local connection to him here. Many have for example hailed memories of him where they've remembered how during the Covid pandemic for example he helped campaign for more oxygen supplies in the area, he helped bring food to some vulnerable

people. He's also according to some priests that I've spoken to here been known for helping migrant communities as well and a bit like Pope Francis he's seen as somebody who was quite a charitable figure in the area when he worked around here. Yeah and Ioni, just tell us about his journey in Peru then. He first went there in 1985 was that right? That's right he first came here as a missionary and he was sort of in the north of the country particularly working in rural communities and then after a stint back in the US he returned to a city called Trujillo on the North Coast. He spent

some time there working with communities, in particular teaching men how to be priests as well, was something that he specialized in. Then after another brief stint back in the United States, he was asked by Pope Francis to become the bishop here in Chiclayo. He had that role for nearly a decade and so this is really an area that means a lot to him. It's the reason why he specifically did a shout out to this city in his acceptance speech, his first speech as Pope from the Vatican. Our correspondent Ioni Wells with my colleague Rajini Vijanathan. With Israel cutting off all humanitarian supplies to Gaza

for more than two months now, aid groups, which are warning of an acute risk of rising malnutrition, have been scrambling to find alternative routes for food and medicine. UN agencies have again rejected a plan developed jointly by Israel and the United States to use army-controlled hubs. That plan would create distribution points only in southern Gaza, with Palestinians first screened by the Israeli military and supplies handed out by private US security companies. Jan Egeland, the former head of the UN's humanitarian aid and relief efforts, said that this idea would never be an adequate match. It's very inferior to the obvious solution, which is to lift the blockade. We had a system working for many, many weeks. All of the UN agencies, we and the non-governmental organisations,

reached all families in Gaza in an effective and efficient manner. So let's use a system that is proven in all conflict zones. Our correspondent Imogen Foulkes spoke to Jan Eglund. Well, indeed, frustrated and let's not forget that Jan Eglund has a very long experience of delivering humanitarian aid. He was head of the humanitarian task force for Syria. And there was a lot of very big challenges there too, with, for example, President Assad's regime at times trying to take control of delivery of supplies. Now, the UN aid agencies said no then, and

Jan Eglund is saying to me, why should we change our stance now, because it's Israel rather than Syria, and pointing out that there are some very key principles with aid delivery, that it has to be neutral and impartial. It can't just be the people who can make it from northern Gaza down to southern Gaza to get this aid. That will be only the strongest, not the children, not people with disabilities, not the elderly. And that it can't be delivered by one side. The UN cannot cooperate with one side in an armed conflict delivering aid. That makes them targets too. We've seen it in Afghanistan and Iraq.

And the blockade, as I mentioned, has been going on for two months already. Tell me a bit more about this threat of serious problems being caused, possibly even starvation? Well we're waiting for the integrated food security report which is due out on Monday but aid agencies have been warning there was a threat of famine before the last ceasefire and what is tragic, UN aid agencies say, is that lots of aid went in during that ceasefire, then it stopped with absolutely nothing. It's not just food that's running out, it's also water, it's medical supplies. So very hard to see how people can survive in these conditions but the

scheme proposed by Israel and the United States is, the United Nations says, absolutely not the right one. They're waiting waiting with aid they can go in at any point. Imogen folks with me from Geneva. Israel has accused Hamas of stealing and storing humanitarian aid to give to its fighters or sell to raise money. The UN and other agencies deny that aid has been diverted and insist they have strict monitoring mechanisms. A federal judge in the United States has ordered the release on bail of a student who is seized by masked officers after co-writing an opinion piece criticising her university's response to Israel's war in Gaza.

Rameza Ozturk from Turkey was arrested walking near her home in March as part of President Trump's crackdown on pro-Palestinian campus activism. Ms. Osturg, who had her visa revoked by the State Department, is studying for a PhD at Tufts University in Massachusetts. She'd been held in a detention centre 2,500 kilometres away in Louisiana. Here's our North America correspondent, Neda Taufik. The judge made it very clear that literally, he said, the only piece of evidence the government

had was an op-ed that was co-authored by Ramesa Ozturk in the Tufts student newspaper that was critical of Israel's war in Gaza. And the judge said that because the government had offered literally nothing else, it was clear that she should be released, that she was in no way a danger to the community, that she was somebody who was invested in her community, in her studies. He described her as someone who was clearly compassionate in her dealings with children that she studies as part of her PhD program. So he said that he was releasing her and that it raised very substantial questions about

the fact that her First Amendment rights and due process rights had been violated and that if he didn't release her, that her continued detainment would chill the speech of millions of other noncitizens in the country. It has really put the administration's moves, the Department of Justice, in a situation where we have not just seen with this case, but in other cases, they're having to defend policies with judges asking some very tough questions. In several cases, we see the judges just incredulous over some of the administration's arguments. And that was certainly the case here.

I mean, you think about the fact that Ramesa Ozturk said she was suffering from severe asthma attacks over those six weeks of detention in Louisiana, that she had not only been arrested by masked and plain closed immigration officials, but then she was shackled by the feet and stomach, taken from place to place by unidentified men. She said at one point she was so scared, she thought she was certain they were going to kill her. So she has been through a lot. The judge is saying that now she needs to get back to her community to try to heal essentially. North America correspondent Neda Taufik. The space race was one example of the fierce Cold War rivalry between the United States and the Soviet Union and a reminder of that bitter contest is set to hurtle down from the sky in the coming

hours as the old Soviet spacecraft, Cosmos 482, makes an uncontrolled re-entry through Earth's atmosphere. It's been stuck in space for more than half a century. Here's Ella Bicknall. That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind. After the Soviets lost the race to send a man to the moon, they set their sights on Venus. Cosmas 482 was one of the 29 USSR spacecraft launched towards Earth's twin sister, shielded with titanium to withstand the temperatures of our solar system's hottest planet.

But a launch failure meant it never reached its destination, and instead it remained in titanium to withstand the temperatures of our solar system's hottest planet. But a launch failure meant it never reached its destination, and instead it remained in the Earth's orbit. Parts of the spacecraft crashed days later on the South Island of New Zealand, farmers discovering large metal spaceballs in their fields. The rest has been circling our planet ever since. Now a large fragment, 500 kilos, could likely survive re-entry into Earth's atmosphere. After 53 years in space, it won't have the necessary refrigeration, aerobraking capacity or working parachutes to slow down its uncontrolled descent.

Dr Megan Argo is a senior lecturer in astrophysics at the University of Central Lancashire in England. It's only one spacecraft. It is a metre in size, so itself is very unlikely to hit anywhere populated. Your chances of being hit by this particular spacecraft are very much smaller than your chances of being hit by lightning at any point in your life. So where will it end up? A forest, a desert or perhaps someone's back garden? Most likely though, the ocean. If it does impact, it's going to cause some damage. But yeah, given how much of the Earth's

surface is water, the most likely option is it's going to land in the sea. And wherever it lands, there's a protocol for who cleans up the mess. Dr Stane Lemons is from the European Space Agency. International treaties agreed in the 60s and 70s lay out that for any damage caused on the surface of the Earth or in air, the launching state is absolutely liable and also needs to help with the clean-up and the repartiation. So don't collect for your own collection. His team are closely tracking the spacecraft, expecting it to crash in the early hours of Saturday morning GMT, somewhere between 51.7 degrees north and south latitude. That's most

of the inhabited world, from London to the bottom of South America. So we won't know for sure until it gets here. Ella Bicknell reporting. And still to come in this podcast. How these sounds of chimpanzees show music was around before we split from the apes millions of years ago. This podcast is brought to you by Wyse. Wyse is the fast affordable way to get the currency you need at your fingertips. Tap the Wyse Multi-Currency Card to spend pounds in London or download the app to move pesos to Mexico City. Wyse always gives you a fair exchange

rate with no markups and no hidden fees. So when you send, spend or receive money with Wyse, you'll get the real deal for your money anywhere in the world. 12 million customers managing their international money with Wyse can't be wrong. Download the WISE app today or visit wise.com. T's and T's apply. A man is shot dead on the streets of New York. A huge manhunt and a nationwide police appeal led here. The suspect, Luigi Mangione, was arrested and charged with the murder of Brian Thompson, chief executive of a major US healthcare and insurance company. Mangione denies the charges

against him and reaction to the case went viral. In the Mangione Trial podcast, we're exploring how this case has divided opinion online, unpicking the facts from conspiracy theories, delving into the debate around the healthcare system in the US. And we're bringing you major developments as the case unfolds in the courtroom. The Manjoni trial from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. In our earlier podcast we heard how the Russian President Vladimir Putin and his allies gathered in Moscow to mark the 80th anniversary of the former Soviet Union's victory over Nazi Germany. On the same day, Ukraine's European allies met to give their continued backing.

Our security correspondent Frank Gardner reports from Kyiv. On the very day that Russia's friends have been gathering for a parade in Moscow, Kyiv's allies have been meeting in the western Ukrainian city of Lviv to show their support. The foreign ministers from Britain and the European Union who've come to this country have made two major announcements. The first concerns a 1 billion euro plus fund to bolster Ukraine's defences with ammunition and weapons as it continues to fight off Russia's full-scale invasion for a fourth year. The second is an agreement to set up a special tribunal

to prosecute alleged war crimes committed in Ukraine by Russia, Belarus and North Korea. The Foreign Secretary David Lammy said it was important that those responsible were held accountable. It is absolutely clear that when this war is over, those who have perpetrated it must account for their crimes of aggression and their crimes against humanity. President Zelensky has announced a meeting in Ukraine of leaders of the so-called Coalition of the Willing. This multinational group of mainly European nations led by the UK and France is intended to help shore up

Ukraine's security once a final peace deal with Russia is agreed. But with the current three-day Russian unilateral ceasefire being broken by both sides up and down the front line, peace in Ukraine looks as elusive as ever. In Lebanon, a fragile ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah is still holding despite mutual accusations of breaches. The deal included the deployment of thousands of troops from the Lebanese National Army to areas in the south that were once virtually controlled by Hezbollah which is backed by Iran. Those soldiers helped by the UN peacekeeping force are now

discovering and dismantling positions that were used to carry out attacks against Israel. Our Middle East correspondent Hugo Vershega has been given rare access to an operation by French soldiers near the border. In the hills of southern Lebanon, French troops are on a mission. Part of the UN peacekeeping force in the country, they are searching for positions that were being used by Hezbollah, which for decades was the dominant power here. So we are in a valley here in southern Lebanon and I can see there are lots of positions that have been left

abandoned and presumably this was the position that was being used by Hezbollah. Yes it was a living area here and a bit further it's a striking or firing position. So people were staying here and they would go to a position to fire a rocket? Yes, exactly. How far are we from the Israeli border? Here we are two or three kilometres from the Israeli border. Captain Floran, from the UN mission known as UNIFIL, is leading the operation. Here is a little calf for us, a living area for them.

Yes, I can see like one, two, three, four, five beds. There's also a fridge here, which looks like a very permanent facility. permanent facility. There are maybe some years to set these camps and these weapons, these launchers, and it is really sophisticated. From places like this, Hezbollah carried out attacks against Israel. The ceasefire has meant that its fighters were forced to pull out from these areas. We also find abandoned multiple rocket launchers, next to pipes for water distribution and cables for electricity and communication. So before the ceasefire and before the war, it would have been almost impossible for UNIFIL

or even the Lebanese army to come to these places because of the presence that Hezbollah had here, right? Yes. And you haven't encountered so far any Hezbollah fighter? No, no, no, never. But I don't think there is many Hezbollah members right now in the area of operation. So here is a truck with a rocket launcher set up on it, which has been destroyed. And here we can see it's maybe by an air strike

because you can see the trees are all burnt. We've been here for more than an hour now. Yes. There's been the constant sound of the Israeli drone flying overhead. Every time, night and day. Every time, night and day. Yeah. The UN says the drone infiltrations and Israel's constant airstrikes on targets it says are

linked to Hezbollah are in breach of the ceasefire. Back at the French base, I meet Candice Adiel, who is the deputy UNIFIL spokesperson. For the moment, the main violations, frankly, that we're seeing are from the Israeli side. We have Israeli soldiers present in Lebanese territory. They've maintained a number of permanent looking positions. And these are the five points that the Israeli military continue to occupy in southern Lebanon, but also the drones, the Israeli drones that continue to breach Lebanese territory.

And fighter jets as well. Occasionally we see air violations on a fairly regular basis as well. And the attacks that have been happening almost every day. Yes, air strikes, drone strikes, yes. How would you describe the work of the Lebanese military? The Lebanese army is doing a great job. They have redeployed, they're active, they have been consistently working with peacekeepers, working to restore stability. I think the

Lebanese army understands that right now for the people this is the most important thing. Just outside the base, we spot Hezbollah flags. The group has been weakened by Israel and is under growing pressure to disarm. Its future is uncertain, but its presence is still felt here and across Lebanon. Next to Sweden, where the National Security Adviser has resigned after compromising photos of him emerged. Sweden's Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson gave more details about the scandal. This is a person who has had access to security sensitive intelligence from the Swedish government for many years.

So this is information that should have come to light a long time ago. These are old pictures. This is old information. It's a system failure that this kind of information is not uncovered. And this is something we have reason to look at. As our reporter Stephanie Zakristen told me, this is the second National Security Advisor who's had to leave the post this year. So this all started in January Andrew when it was revealed, it emerged that the National

Security Advisor, Henrik Londerholm, he had left classified documents in a hotel room and apparently there had been an internal probe into this but the Cabinet Office had decided he had done basically nothing wrong. After that the Swedish security police looked into it and now he's actually facing charges. So there will be a trial, he lost his job, there will be a trial taking place in August. He, I should say, denies having committed any kind of criminal offence. And then a couple of months later, this Thursday, the Swedish government announced a new national security adviser named Tobias Thubau. And less than 12 hours after he was announced as the new national Security Advisor, he has had to leave his role after the Cabinet Office was sent intimate photos of him, apparently

existing on dating sites. And this is a person who has had multiple different roles representing Sweden at different embassies, including in Moscow and in Ukraine, in Georgia. So this type of material could be very compromising for a person in this position who has access to classified information about Sweden. Potentially he could be a target for international intelligence forces etc. Okay now obviously the details are very different but there are definitely echoes here of what's gone on with Mike Waltz, the former National Security Advisor to the Trump administration, with Signalgate, with secret information being passed around on a messaging app and accusations that not enough care had been taken. Oh, indeed, and someone phrased it as having poor digital hygiene when it comes to Signalgate and that is I guess what we're seeing here as well that there's

information out there about these people classified information has not been handled in a proper manner and of course this is also such an important role in the Swedish government this is a role that didn't exist actually before this current government they actually campaigned in the past election on introducing it because of the need for more security, intelligence, intelligence sharing with other countries due to Sweden having joined the NATO alliance because of the war in Ukraine and global collaboration. So this was seen as sort of Ulf Kirstenstern, the Prime Minister's, one of his prestige projects. So it's quite damaging to have two national security officers having to be removed

from the post within just a couple of months. And Steph, you're Swedish, so it's particularly easy for you to look at Swedish media, talk to people you know back home. How much do people care? I mean, judging from Swedish media, they have gone all in on these stories but it's also being heavily criticized by opposition politicians for instance the former defense minister he said that this shows incompetence within the government and also warned that these failures impact the view of Sweden internationally and as we were mentioning all of these collaborations with other countries would Sweden be trusted with sharing intelligence information with other countries?

So sort of compromises the credibility of Sweden at a time when it really matters? Indeed. Stephanie Zakristen reporting. Now to end this podcast, something that's left scientists stunned. Step aside human drummers because chimps have rhythm. Researchers believe they now have enough clean audio to support the idea that chimpanzee drumming isn't random but rhythmic. Scientists from universities in Austria, Italy and the UK compiled more than a century's worth of observational data, uncontaminated by the cacophony of the jungle.

Sascha Schlickter has been looking at the findings. Humans have long been fascinated by the question what if the raw ingredients of music were present before our evolutionary split from chimpanzees six million years ago. Science now believes the answer is a firm yes. But equally intriguingly, researchers have discovered that the West African subspecies tended to produce more evenly timed beats, while Eastern chimpanzees alternated between shorter and longer intervals.

Western chimps also drummed more frequently, kept a quicker tempo and began drumming earlier in their signature calls made up of rapid pants and hoots. The researchers suggest the Western faster predictable pulse might be evidence of greater social cohesion, noting the Western groups are less aggressive towards outsiders. By contrast, the Eastern Apes' variable rhythms could be useful for locating or signalling to companions when their parties are more widely dispersed. But it's early days yet and much more research is needed, such as establishing if there are intergenerational differences between rhythms within the same groups.

Stasher Schlick to reporting. And that's all from us for now. There'll be a new edition of Global News to download later. If you'd like to comment on this podcast, drop us an email globalpodcast at bbc.co.uk and you'll find us on X at BBC World Service and we'd like you to use the hashtag globalnewspod. This edition was mixed by Chris Kazaris, the producer was Daniel Mann, the editor is Karen Martin. I'm Andrew Peach, thanks for listening and until next time, goodbye. in the world.