Global News Podcast - Ukraine's future is focus of Munich Security Conference

Episode Date: February 14, 2025

US and EU allies discuss Ukraine's peace prospects at the Munich Security Conference. The Russian delegation is not invited. Also: long sentences for rhino poachers in Indonesia, and the smell of mummies.

This is the Global News Podcast from the BBC World Service. I'm Rachel Wright and at 14h GMT on Friday 14th February these are our main stories. US and EU leaders meet in Munich where the future of Ukraine is being discussed. We hear from our security correspondent and from Russia. Ukraine has accused Russia of launching a drone attack on the Chernobyl nuclear power station, causing significant damage. Also in this podcast, fruit flies and zebrafish have been genetically modified to eat a toxic pollutant. It's 50 years since the death of Sir Pelham Grenfell Woodhouse, commonly known as P.G. Woodhouse,

creator of some of the most widely read comic works of the 20th century. And? You can do it. Your body can surprise you that we have strength that you will never know about it. You just have to experience it. The Egyptian fencer who competed in the Olympics while seven months pregnant. But first, all eyes are now on the German city of Munich, which has become the focal point for the war in Ukraine, or perhaps efforts to end it, especially those coming from Washington. Lots of top US administration officials are attending the annual security conference, as is the Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. But there is no

Russian delegation. That's because Russians still aren't officially welcome in Western circles, despite the long phone call between President Trump and President Putin on Wednesday in which the two men discussed a face-to-face meeting. Speaking to journalists, President Zelensky has said that Ukraine must be a full participant in any negotiations towards a peace deal. Of course it will be very strange if the policy of the United States will shift to Russia. But I think this is a very important moment for the new team.

It's their decision, of course, but I think that the United States can stop any evil. And in this case, they have to be on the side of us because they attacked us and occupied us. No compromises in this. Christoph Huisgen is the chairman of the Munich Conference. It is very clear that Ukraine is not ready to give up its country, it's not ready to see territory. Ukraine has a legitimate government, it has to be recognised. So when they talk about negotiations right now, you talk about a country that apparently

until now is not really present in the conversation. And this has to be changed. And for this to be changed, Europe and Ukraine have to stick together. Europe cannot just ask to be on the table, Europe has to put something on the table. Christoph Heusgen was talking to our security correspondent Frank Gardner who is also in Munich and earlier I asked Frank what was the key issue separating the US and Europe over Ukraine. I think it's really about how much can be given away, where there is common ground and

where there isn't. There's no disguising it. There is a huge gap between Ukraine and its European allies on the one hand and what the White House wants on the other. President Trump's team are impatient to end this war. Some would say at whatever cost, even if it's to Ukraine's detriment. And Europe's view is we need to continue supporting Ukraine for as long as it takes.

Those are the words of Kier Stama, the British prime minister, this morning. That is not the view in Washington, where they're saying, yeah, we still support Ukraine, but we want a deal, get it done. And we know what Russia's position is. They intend to not only hang on to the territory they've already taken, they want to guarantee that Ukraine is not going to join NATO, there are going to be no NATO troops in Ukraine, and also they want more land. Now, the big fear here in Munich is that a deal is going to be done, whether Europe and Ukraine like it

or not, and that that is going to involve essentially selling out Ukrainian interests and allowing Russia to rebuild its army. And the fear is that Russia is going to simply come back and take the rest of Ukraine at a time of its choosing. Well, Christoph Huisken was saying that Europe needs a plan. Do we have any sense of what a plan would look like? No, we don't. He said that in that interview to me about a couple of hours ago when we recorded it. And that's another one of the themes here at this conference, that Europe has not exactly dithered, you know, fiddled while Rome burned, but has been rather slow to get its act together when it comes to organizing enough money for defense.

America is sending the very clear signal that the U.S. taxpayer is no longer going to be expected to shoulder the bulk of the defense burden in supporting Ukraine and in defending Europe. It's time for Europe to stand on its own two feet. That's extremely unwelcome here because in terms of percentage of national wealth countries spend on defence. The NATO mandate is it's meant to be 2%. Now big countries like Spain and Italy are not even spending 2% on defence. Poland is and the Baltic states are because they're close to the action. Britain is agonising

over whether to raise it from 2.3 to 2.5. America is saying, you guys have got to spend 5% if you hope to be able to defend yourselves and stop relying on us to do it for you. So it's a tough message coming from Washington and something approaching panic, I think, on the behalf of Europe. And it's not just over Ukraine that this new dynamic is between the US and Europe? There's the whole issue about trade tariffs, etc. and the future trade war.

But I mean, look, it's no surprise, I think, that Trump's attention is not really on Europe. Ultimately, he's much more interested in things like trade, securing the southern border with Mexico and China. That's where his interests lie. The Chinese foreign minister is here in Munich. There are going to be... We're going to be hearing from him in a while. But that's where US attention is. So Europe is really feeling slightly left out in the cold.

Frank Gardner in Munich. So what's the Russian view? The BBC's Victoria Owen-Cunda spoke to Sergei Markov, a former spokesperson and adviser to President Putin, to get his view on President Trump's talks with his boss about ending the war in Ukraine. My first reaction was very positive and it's very good that the United States now stop the strategy to talk with Russia about ultimatums, which have been continued before

by Biden administration during all four years. It's a positive result. Same time, the main reasons on the conflict that united in Europe made not democracy in Ukraine, but in fact, new fascist terrorist regime. And this is still not recognized by Donald Trump. It's main obstacles for the peace to Ukraine. This is not on the table yet.

That's why we have not so much positive about the result of negotiations. It's very good that negotiations will be... Mr. Markov, let me ask you something. You said that the reason for these wars, partly because there is a real threat to security to Ukraine and Russia, yet it was Russia, your country, that aggressed and invaded Ukraine. No, no, no, no.

Russian military operation is humanitarian operation to protect lives and security of the millions of people on the Ukraine territory. Russian demands from Ukrainian government to respect Orthodox Church, but we have political repression against Orthodox Church in Ukraine. Russia demands to respect the right of the people to speak their native language and Russian language is native for about 70% of the population of Ukraine. This should be sharply violated.

You call it humanitarian operation. Let me ask you then, Mr. Markov, with this war that Russia waged against Ukraine, does Russia respect Ukraine's sovereignty? Ukraine's sovereignty doesn't exist from 2014. It exists because it's a country that is recognized by war. No, no, it's a neo-colony country. It's a neo-colony of the United States of America and of Great Britain. Deep state of United States, deep state of Great Britain. Sergey Markov. Meanwhile, Ukraine says a Russian drone attack overnight significantly damaged the radiation shelter over the Chernobyl nuclear power plant. The International Atomic Energy

Agency said the fire was extinguished quickly, there were no casualties and radiation levels are stable. Russia has responded saying it does not attack nuclear facilities. But of course there are concerns as Chernobyl still contains lingering radiation from the explosion in 1986, which was the world's worst civil nuclear disaster. So what's been the reaction in Ukraine? James Waterhouse is our correspondent in Kyiv. President Zelensky, well his office has said that radiation levels are normal. He talked about that protective casing being built by Ukraine and its allies in the years following that 1986 nuclear disaster. I remember before the full scale invasion it was a popular tourist spot,

a sort of plan to go myself. When I first arrived in Ukraine in early 2022 and I put it off and then of course when the full-scale invasion happened it was off limits and then Russian soldiers when they advanced on Kiev they arrived there and they dug trenches and disturbing radioactive soil which is an illustration really of why there is still an exclusion zone around the site. So it'll be a site well known to many. It was a disaster that sort of marked the beginning of the end when it came to the Soviet Union and how Ukrainians

viewed Moscow in terms of its response to that disaster. So it's at the front of many people's minds, but thankfully the damage seems to be relatively minimal. But we've seen this kind of to-ing and fro-ing of accusations between Moscow and Kiev when it comes to nuclear infrastructure being hit. But the fact is this, Russia does attack nuclear infrastructure. It moved in from the south early in the invasion and seized the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, which has six reactors, and it has kept hold of it ever since. A dam it occupies, which provided water to cool those reactors, was destroyed. So it's a statement by the Kremlin that is demonstrably not true, given that it occupies the biggest nuclear power station in Europe, in southern Ukraine.

James Waterhouse in Kyiv. Poachers who killed dozens of rare Jarvan rhinos have been given long prison sentences by a court in Indonesia. Conservationists say this ruling delivers a clear warning to those who threaten Indonesia's wildlife. Our reporter Jay Sung Lee is following the story. These sentences are the highest punishment possible for poaching in Indonesia. These poachers were found guilty were members of a criminal gang that was uncovered by authorities in 2023. Now they've confessed to killing 26 rhinos over a five year period of time. And in this ruling, the court sentenced the leader of the group to 12 years in prison and his five co- Klux Klan conspirators to 11 years. They were also found around $6,000 each. Now, as you mentioned briefly there,

conservationists have praised this ruling, saying it sets a strong precedent and delivers a clear warning to those who threaten Indonesia's wildlife. They're hoping the long sentences will have a deterrent effect on other poachers trying to hunt these species down, but they said more need to be done to prevent poaching in Indonesia. I have to admit I didn't know that there were rhinos in Java. Tell us why they're so significant and how many are there? Well these Javan rhinos used to roam over the vast forests in Southeast Asia but are now only found in Ujung Kulon National Park which is in the westernmost tip of Indonesia's

Java Island, the most populous island in Indonesia. This is thought to be their last stronghold. Now, they're critically endangered with fewer than less than 100 thought to remain. As poachers, many of whom are driven by economic hardship, hunt these species down for their lucrative horns, which are sold on to dealers in China. That's because for centuries, rhino horns have been used in Chinese traditional medicine to treat various illnesses and medical conditions such as fever, stop nosebleeds and even they say prevent strokes. But scientists say, you know, these horns have no

proven qualities. That is all basically a myth. And conservationists say Javan rhinos also reproduce very slowly, making it even more challenging for authority to preserve them. But they're determined to keep the species alive as they say Javan rhinos have been brought back from the brink of extinction before as well. Methyl mercury is an extremely toxic compound and unfortunately is often present in the fish that we eat. It also threatens the neural and reproductive health of whales, dolphins and sharks. It gets into the food chain because of burning coal and industrial activities such as illegal gold mining. Scientists in Australia though have developed a method of removing it by genetically modifying zebrafish and fruit flies and injecting them with bacteria so they can munch on the mercury and transform it into a harmless gas. Dr Kate Kepa took part in the research and explained to the

BBC's Victoria Uankunda about how it works. So we did a search into the literature and found these two enzymes from bacteria, E. coli bacteria, and one of them, it cleaves off the methyl group, off of that methyl mercury compound. And then there's another enzyme that comes in and changes that charge of that mercury atom. So that mercury atom in the uncharged state has some really interesting chemistry in that it's highly volatile and so it's able to evaporate out of cells and out of the animal.

And so do you find or do you think that there is a danger in doing that in engineering animals in that way? I guess like for biomediation, like using animals using biological agents to clean up pollution. For animals, there's really robust genetic biocontainment strategies. For example, you can surgically sterilise fish to prevent them from interbreeding in the wild. And then for insects, we have some robust biocontainment strategies to make sure that they're not interbreeding in the wild. And in your opinion, where could these kind of research then lead us into the future? So some applications for this could be for species conservation, as well as to clean up areas that might have high levels of mercury.

And then another application that we're really excited about is that you could engineer insects that industrially process organic waste. So the insects, they can process organic waste that are commonly contaminated by mercury and then in the enclosed facilities, the gaseous mercury can be trapped and then completely removed from the biosphere. Dr Kate Kappa of Macquarie University in Australia. Still to come, have you ever wondered how ancient Egyptian mummies smell? You have their frankincense and this is myrrh.

We're reconstructing the smell to be presented at the Egyptian Museum in Cairo. in Cairo. The fragile ceasefire in Gaza seems to be still holding after the latest crisis was averted with help from the regional mediators Qatar and Egypt in particular. After days of uncertainty, Hamas has now released the names of the three hostages, or dual nationals, due to be freed on Saturday. Meanwhile, the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who's due to visit the region on Saturday, has been speaking about President Trump's peace plan. Our Middle East correspondent Yolande Nell has more.

He was talking to a conservative radio talk show before departing on his trip. He's supposed to be visiting Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Israel, having already met Egyptian and Jordanian officials in Washington. And according to his account, President Trump's controversial plan for Gaza was given in the absence of any other. He says, if someone has a better plan, and we hope they do, if the Arab countries have a better plan, then that's great. And he said, now's the time to present it. Now, you know, he also comes out with some quite provocative comments for someone who's the top US diplomat. He does say all these countries say how much they care about the Palestinians, but none of them want to take any Palestinians. None of them have a history of doing anything for Gaza in that matter. And of course, Jordan

being asked now to take in more Gaza refugees by the US already hosts two million Palestinian registered refugees, many from Gaza. Egypt says that just in the course of this war it's taken more than 100,000 Gazans and it's coming up now, it's working on a plan, an alternative plan for Gaza that will see it reconstructed but not displacing the population and Arab leaders are due to meet in the coming weeks and then attend a conference in Cairo and all this. Yolande Nel, as part of that Israeli hostage release deal, hundreds of Palestinian prisoners

have also been set free. On Saturday, a further 360 Palestinians will be part of the exchange for the three Israeli hostages. Perhaps the most famous Palestinian of the many thousands detained is Marwan Bagouti, a man long tipped as a potential future Palestinian leader. He has spent more than two decades in an Israeli jail for murders committed during the Second Intifada or Uprising. His son, Arab Bagouti, is an activist in Ramallah in the West Bank. My colleague James Kumrasami asked him how a new political leadership for the Palestinians should be decided. We need to give the

Palestinian people and no other than the Palestinian people the choice to choose our leadership. It's been almost two decades since we had our last elections. If you're a Palestinian and you're 35 years old or under, which is 70% of the Palestinian people, you have never voted before, let alone getting elected or getting into the parliament or something like that. Is there a hunger for elections? There is a big hunger for elections and for unity. I think a unified Palestinian people contributes greatly into the future of peace. We do need one umbrella that holds all Palestinian factions under it, that represents the whole of the Palestinian people as well.

And we have young people who are very qualified to be in the political scene that we have never been able to get our voices heard. Where does Hamas fit in? I think that Hamas is a political party like any other party. I hope to see a unified Palestinian people, which includes all Palestinian factions, with no exceptions. So Hamas could be part of the group of parties

who rule the Gaza Strip still. I think it's only the right of the Palestinian people to choose our leadership. Enough with Western governments to come and tell us who we can vote for and who we can't vote for, who we can label a terrorist and who we can label a good guy. They're not qualified to do that. So your father himself, he's still in prison. You don't know whether he's likely to be released under this ceasefire deal, is that correct? We're not sure and we're not certain, but we're very positive and optimistic that he will be part of any future deal along with all Palestinian political prisoners.

Your father has long been spoken about as a potential leader of the Palestinians. Is that still how you see it? Is it how he sees it? It's not how I see it or even how he sees it. I think it has to do with what the Palestinian people want. Arab Barghouti talking to James Kumarasami. Officials in Munich say the number of people injured in Thursday's attack has risen to 36. Two people, including a two-year-old girl, are in a critical condition. Eight people are seriously injured. Police say they believe the attacker,

who drove a car into a trade union rally, appears to have had a religious motivation. Our Germany correspondent Damian McGuinness has the latest. Munich's chief state prosecutor has revealed that during questioning, the 24-year-old Afghan asylum seeker had admitted that he drove a car into the crowd intentionally. The prosecutor told reporters that she was cautious about making hasty judgments about why he had carried out this attack, but that based on what officials know so far, he may have had an Islamist motivation. There is no evidence though that he's linked to any extremist organisation. Officials have also corrected previous statements and have now

confirmed that he had no criminal record and has a work permit, so was legally in Germany. Damian McGuinness Now to the Egyptian sportswoman whose pregnancy during the Paris Olympics stunned the world. After her last 16 exit, Fensa Nader Hafez revealed she had competed while seven months pregnant. She's been speaking to BBC Sports Africa's Nishat Lada about some of the backlash she received, but also how she's proud to be a role model for women across the globe. I'm a competitive person. What I was thinking about my baby that I want to be the Olympian and my baby to be an Olympian and to do something different for my baby. So, yeah, my baby motivated me for this.

27-year-old Egyptian fencer Nada Hafez is a clinical pathologist by trade and a new mum to four-month-old daughter Zaina. She'd already competed at Rio 2016 and Tokyo 2020, but the Paris Olympics were more than just participation. In the first round of her women's individual sabre, she pulled off a shock win against seventh-se American, Elizabeth Tatakovsky. I had this dream to not stop and to continue fencing and to continue and chase my dream. So when I did it finally, it was like, I can't believe it. And also I won a very difficult match. So this was the dream coming true for me. Hafez lost her next match, but reaching the last 16 was something special. And then came the Instagram post, which made headline news the world over. Now the latest from Paris 2024, where the Egyptian fencer Nada Hafez

has revealed she competed at the Olympics while seven months pregnant. Hafez appearing... I was just posting this on my personal account saying that I'm on top 16 in the world while pregnant and I didn't expect that this will go viral. I was very proud that an Egyptian Arab woman can tell the world that you can do it, your body can surprise you, that we have strength that you will never know about it, you just have to experience it.

I read all the messages from women and actually not only women, there are young girls. They told me you inspired us so much and we want to go to medical school and I want to I read all the messages from women and actually not only women, there are young girls. They told me, you inspired us so much and we want to go to medical school and I want to continue in sports. When I get a message from anyone telling me that I'm an example or role model, it's really big, it set my heart on fire. But not all the messages were so kind. Hafez put out another post to clarify she was fine to compete. I didn't understand what people are talking about because some people, they're saying, you can leave another place for another one to fence. And this is not an option because I'm qualified by my name.

So I didn't take anyone's place, for example. People do just put a message and it's easy to put a comment on the post and run. You don't face me. Some people, they don't want to see a successful woman. When she first discovered she was pregnant, Hafez was cautious but was encouraged by her husband, a cardiothoracic surgeon, to get medical advice. When I told my husband, he told me, okay, we will go to the doctor, to a specialist, and what he's saying, we're going to do it. So I went to the doctor and I told him

I'm an athlete and I want to participate in the next Olympics and he was like okay why not we will follow up and if you're okay with your pregnancy and everything goes normal you can do whatever you want. Hafez kept the news of her pregnancy very quiet. I didn't have to tell anyone because it's not against law. I just told the the people that they need to know, like my doctor, my mental coach, because they were thinking I have to be not against any laws, not against any health conditions. So I told the people that they should know. The Egyptian Olympic Committee confirmed to us that they have no problem with a pregnant woman competing as long as they're sure it's safe for her and her baby.

Hafez has not yet decided whether she'll try to qualify for LA 2028. She's studying for a masters and using her platform to support women's rights in sport. Sometimes you need to see an example in front of you to know that you can do it because maybe a pregnant woman she's just afraid to move, she she afraid to do anything and now she just tells herself there's an olympian woman that she competes at the olympics while pregnant so i can do whatever it is and i wanted to give a message for all women that you don't have a disease you're just a normal woman and you're pregnant." Olympian and now mother Nada Hafez speaking to the BBC's Nishat Ladda. A new study has captured and analyzed the sense of nine human mummies from ancient Egypt in an effort

to understand how well preserved they are. Mummification was a preservation process that was believed to help the ancient Egyptian elite cross into the afterlife thousands of years ago. Cecilia Bembibre-Giacobbo, a lecturer in sustainable heritage at University College London, was one of the authors of the research. She explained how the samples were taken. We put a very fine tube inside the sarcophagus and extracted a quantity of air that we could then smell. So this is the air that would be around the mummified body. It's called a headspace technique and it's also used in perfumery.

What I have here is a series of resins that would have been used in the mummification process. You have there frankincense and this is myrrh. We did two things. We smelled the air that was around the mummified body, but we also took a sample and took it back to the laboratory and we used a technique called gas chromatography which separates all the different smells in the mix of the mummified body smell. And there we were able to smell moldy compounds, for example, and stale compounds. One of the findings of the study is that we were able to pinpoint four sources for the smells and this is quite important because it helps us learn more about ancient Egypt

and the mummified bodies. We found smells that had to do with the embalming process. We had smells that had to do with the synthetic pesticides that had been historically used to preserve these mummified bodies. We also found smells that had to do with the bio-deterioration process, for example, the animal fats used in the embalming breaking down through time. This is useful for scientists and also for conservators who care for this collection so we can ensure that it reaches future generations. On the other hand, we're also thinking of audiences

and we want to share the experience we had smelling the mummified body, so we're reconstructing the smell to be presented in the museum, the Egyptian Museum in Cairo and in Slovenia as well in a museum so audiences can experience this important part of the significance of ancient mummified body. Now we can all smell a mummy. Now to end, it's 50 years since the death of Sir Pelham Granville Woodhouse, aka P.G. Woodhouse, the creator of some of the most widely read comic tales of the 20th century, the adventurers of the feather-brained Bertie Wooster and his wise valet Jeeves.

Here's P.G. Woodhouse himself speaking to the BBC in 1963. It's difficult to say how one gets a character. A character develops very much as you go on writing book after book about it. I think it was Guy Bilton used to say, get your love story right and the comedy will take care of itself. The television host and comedian Alexander Armstrong is president of the P.G. Woodhouse Society. My colleague Nick Robinson asked him why he's such a P.G. Woodhouse enthusiast.

His is the friendliest voice in all literature. I think everyone remembers the time they first, if they have been lucky enough to pick up a P.G. Woodhouse book. And I'm always struck how young people are when they first fell in love with Woodhouse. Usually people at age 10, 11 and they're so early teens. And I think it's because they discover this warmth, there's such a geniality behind him him and that was so typically him in that little clip we heard, so modest, say oh the comedy takes care of itself, nonsense. I mean his is an extraordinary clever, I mean he wears his learning incredibly lightly, but in the narration voice of Bertie Worcester, that's all the Jeeves and Worcester stories

are told as if by Bertie, terrific erudition comes through, although Bertie is apparently brainless. I beatled off with a ferish amount of restrained auteur, for I was displeased with the man. On the previous afternoon, while sauntering along the Strand, I'd found myself wedged into one of those sort of alcove places where fellows with voices like Foghorn stand all day selling things by auction, and though I was still vague as to how exactly it had happened, I had somehow become the possessor of a large china vase with crimson dragons on it, and not only dragons, but birds, dogs, snakes, and a thing that looked like a leopard. This menagerie was now stationed on a bracket over the door of my sitting room. I liked the thing,

it was bright and cheerful, it caught the eye. And that was why, when Jeeves, wincing a bit, had weighed in with some perfectly gratuitous art criticism, I ticked him off with no little vim. Nay, suitor, ultra, whatever it is, I would have said to him, if I'd thought of it. Now, many people are glory in that, but you know there are some maybe of your children, my children's generation, said look at the different worlds, all those posh people. Why should I enjoy wood? I think it's absolutely universal. There's something that just pulls you in by the lapels

about his humour. I mean, it is wickedly, wickedly funny. And there's a lovely, my favourite line is when he turns to his aunt Agatha, whose demeanour was now rather like that of one who, picking daisies on the railway, has just caught the down express in the small of the back. Tell me that isn't universally hilarious. Alexander Armstrong.

And that's all from us for now. But there will be a new edition of the Global News podcast later. If you want to comment on this podcast or the topics covered in it, you can send us an email. The address is globalpodcast.bbc.co.uk. You can also find us on X at BBC World Service. This edition was mixed by Tom Bartlett and the producer was Marion Straughan. The editor is Karen Martin. I'm Rachel Wright. Until next time, goodbye.