Going Deep with Chad and JT - EP 394 - Jeff Pearlman

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

Today we’re joined by legendary sportswriter Jeff Pearlman — one of the best to ever do it. He’s been covering sports for over 30 years, writing iconic bios on athletes like Walter Payton and Showtime Lakers… but his next chapter? A deep dive into Tupac. We talk the wild days of MLB in the ‘90s, Michael Irvin stories, the raw truth of reporting from inside a clubhouse. Chad’s childhood gets shattered when he learns Barry Bonds was kind of a renob behind the scenes. If you’re into sports, storytelling, or '90s hip hop, this EP is for you. More about Jeff Pearlman Here:https://jeffpearlman.com/ We are live streaming a Fully unedited version of the pod on Twitch, if you want to chat with us while we're recording, follow here: https://www.twitch.tv/chadandjtgodeep Grab some dank merch here:https://shop.chadandjt.com/ Come see us on Tour! Get your tix - http://www.chadandjt.com TEXT OR CALL the hotline with your issue or question: 323-418-2019(Start with where you're from and name for best possible advice) Check out the reddit for some dank convo: https://www.reddit.com/r/ChadGoesDeep/ Thanks to our Sponsors:Brotege: The Best Skincare products for bros. Visit https://www.brotege.com and use code deep at checkout!Cash App: Send, Receive, Invest & Manage  Your Money with Cash App -  sign up using code “godeep” send $5 and get a free $10!  https://cash.app/Cornbread Hemp: The first-ever USDA Organic THC gummy that’s 100% legal. Get 30% off your order today when visiting - https://www.cornbreadhemp.com/godeep PRODUCTION & EDITS BY: Jake Rohret #jeffpearlman #sportsillustrated #tupac

What's up guys welcome to the show this show is brought to you by the legends at bro de jay the best Skincare company in the game for dudes. It makes it simple and easy It's for the bros not the pros They're the newest sponsor of the show and they're absolute legends go to bro jay.com deep right now for a special offer Also guys, we have some stand-up dates Next is we'll be at the Comedy Store the main room July 1st Is that right? Yep, July 1st, is that right? Yep.

July 1st, we got Tim Dillon on the show. We got, who else do we have on the show? Bobby Lee. Bobby Lee, Alec Flynn, more to come. It's gonna be a banger. Get your tickets at ChadandJT.com. Also, we're gonna be in San Diego, June 28th, at the Yellow Door, this coming Saturday,

as well as this coming Saturday, as well as Florida coming up, Tampa, Orlando, and Daniel Beach in September. Get your tickets at ChanJT.com. ["Going Deep"] I'm going through the challenge of being. Like TikTok has been a game changer for my career. You're so good at it. It's like the weirdest show. All I do is, I'm not good at it.

That's the funny thing. I think I'm bad at it, and that's actually helped me be good at it. I don't do any effects whatsoever. I don't do any, I don't splice any videos up. People like that. I don't do it. They think it's authentic. I don't do any effects whatsoever. I don't do any, I don't splice any videos up. I don't do it. People like that. They think it's authentic.

I don't know. But your oratory skills are good. Like the way you lay out the stories is really easy to listen to. Yeah, I appreciate it. But yeah. I mean, if we're cooking my favorite one, this is Jeff Perlman, by the way, guys,

sports writer extraordinaire. We're so excited to have him on the pod. Do you want to do the formal? I kind of just want to dive in. Oh, let's go. Yeah, yeah. One of my favorite ones is a story you told Can do you want to do the formal? That kind of what that oh, let's go. Yeah one of my favorite ones is a Story told about Walter Payton and Mike Singletary. I really admire about those guys They feel like the embodiment of like the football spirit to me. Yeah. Well, I wrote a book about Walter Payton called sweetness and

Walter Payton was He fooled around a lot when he was married like he Like he was just a dog back in the day. And one day Mike Singletary came up to him on the team bus and he's like, listen, you need to get your life right. Like you can't be living like this. You have a beautiful wife, you have beautiful kids, you need to get your life right. And Walter Payden starts crying. And you would think like this is this moment that turns And Walter Payden starts crying.

And you would think like this is this moment that turns around Walter Payden, but actually he didn't talk to Mike Singletary until he was on his deathbed. Like he cut him off from that moment. And all those years of the next few years were the best he didn't talk to him at all. Cause he was actually legitimately offended

that Mike Singletary called him out. Now Singletary was right, but Payden was devastated by that. And when Payton was dying of cancer and he was home, and Matsui, his teammate, was bringing people back and forth to see him, Mike Singletary said to Matsui, can I see Walter? And he checked with Walter, Payton said, yeah, I'll see him.

And they kind of patched things up. Yeah. There's something so powerful to me about it. Like Michael Singletary, he's such like a, like you gotta live up to this code of being a football player, which is really just synonymous with being a man. he's such like a, like you gotta live up to this code of being a football player, which is really just synonymous with being a man. And then I felt like Walter Payton had that same code

and for him to get called out was like, it breached his confidence so much that he almost had to just like shun the offender. I think Walter Payton, he was a really, I didn't know what I was getting into when I wrote this book, like I didn't know that much about him. And I remember early on, something happened early on, he has a brother named Eddie Payton who also played in the NFL and Eddie was the golf coach at Jackson State

and this is about 10 years ago and I went down to see Eddie and I was like So is your brother as just great as everyone says because everyone just has this thing about Walter Payton And he was the first one who tipped me off. He's like, yeah He's always like, you know, we all have our skeletons And I was like, uh-oh and you know Walter Payton was a in many ways a wonderful guy But like all of us like a lot of flaws and you know, because the man of the year award is named after yeah And I'm not saying it's worthy like it's he's he died young and he think about paying all right

So Payton at the end of his life had a lot of problems here. I'm 99% certain had they checked his brain for CTE it would have been severe. And they didn't, he died just before they started really doing that. But at the end of his life he was severely depressed. He was calling people with a gun to his head saying you're not gonna see me tomorrow morning.

He had a child out of wedlock who he took financial responsibility for but had nothing to do with and the kid lived about two miles away. He didn't live with his, he had a mistress who he, crazy thing is, Hall of Fame ceremony, Walter Payne's getting inducted to Hall of Fame. His wife is in row one and his mistress is in row three. And the whole week Walter is freaking out.

Everyone's like, why is he so edgy? He seems so edgy all week and it's because he didn't want the two of them to meet. The wife, Connie Payton, goes up to his agent and says, I wanna meet her. And the agent plays dumb at first. She's like, what do you mean? And she's like, I wanna meet the woman.

And they sit in a hotel lobby after the induction ceremony. So it's Connie Payton and this woman, Lita, and Connie says, you can have him, I don't want him. And that happened at the Hall of Fame. So Payton all week was on edge because he was freaking out about his wife and mistress in the scene. Yeah.

A lot of your books, so I've read three of them. And a lot of it's- Only three, no, just kidding. Dude, I was trying to read the USFL one before we talked today. You didn't read the Roger Clemens book that five people bought? I cannot believe this is very hurtful. No, I read Gunslinger. We covered two of them on a podcast. We talked about Three Rings Circus and-

Boys Will Be Boys. Boys Will Be Boys. Yeah, those were fun. They're great. Amazing, amazing. Thank you. And you know what, one of the great part about your books is you always start, you come out of the gates

with just a great story every time. Well, you kinda have to. You kinda have to. Like, I think the start of the Cowboys one is there's a lot of things you can do in this life, but one thing you can't do is stab your teammate in the neck with scissors. I know.

It is true, it is true. Unless you're Michael Irving. Yes, you can. You can if you're Michael Irving. Yeah, you can. I'll tell you the funny thing about that is, so that was an incident that happened. Cowboys used to bring in a barber to training camp

because where they trained, it was very hard to find someone who did black hair, which is a problem for any black kid growing up in America in a white town. You can't find a good barber. And they bring a barber in. And the Cowboys had an offensive lineman named Everett McIver who went to get his haircut.

And Mike Irvin goes seniority. And Everett McIver who went to get his haircut. And Michael Irvin goes seniority. And Everett McIver I think was in his second year. And he's like, all the offensive linemen who are in the room are like, I can curse you, right? Yeah. Are like, just checking. All the offensive linemen are like, fuck that. Don't get up, don't get up.

And Irvin's like seniority. And Everett McIver's like, fuck you. And he's refusing to get up. And they start getting in a pushing pushing match and Michael Irvin grabs He barber scissors and stabs him in the neck and drags it along and blood is sprouting everywhere And blah blah whole thing. It's crazy scene and Michael Irvin at the time was on probation. So if that had gotten out he's going to he's going to jail So the Cowboys never reported gave ever gave Everett McIver a nice payoff.

The moment I knew, like you have these moments as a writer where you're like, yeah, Darren Woodson was a really good safety on the Cowboys at that time, lovely guy, and he called me, and he goes, when the book came out, he goes, Jeff, how the fuck did you get that? Like how did you find that out? And that's when you know, when players on the team

are like, holy shit, that was supposed to never get out, you know, you feel pretty good about yourself. It felt like to me too, like you liked the Cowboys guys a bit more than the Three Rings Circus Lakers guys. Like I felt more of an affinity for them. I mean, you can't go wrong with cocaine and hookers when you're a biographer, when you're a writer, it's just true, like there was so much color.

They were having so much fun. And I felt like you had a real respect for Irvin that he was able to be such a wild man, but then on the field he was so much color. They were having so much fun. And I felt like you had a real respect for Irvin that he was able to be such a wild man, but then on the field he was so accountable. I think he's one of the most unique characters in modern sports history where, you know, he was using drugs and he was womanizing left and right and he was out late every day.

But I've never seen a guy like this, ever, ever, ever. Somehow he demanded accountability at the same time and like Teammates fed off of him and the leader of that team wasn't Trey Aikman and it wasn't Emmett Smith It really was Michael Irvin at the same time. He's living this crazy ass life off the field So I I found that fascinating would you say? He's the best of all the athletes you've ever covered at choreographing an orgy? It's got to be top five. My home's is really good. I'm just kidding.

Just kidding. If you're going to choreograph an orgy, call Mike Barber. That's hilarious. Having the other athletes talk about that, yeah, he was really skilled at it. Like they all kind of were like, no one was like, what are you talking about? Everybody was like, yeah, he had a real skill for putting people in a position that made sense physically. The thing is, I mean, if you have a talent,

you have a talent. Yeah, I respect it. I'm smiling near to you. He's drawing a map, he's like, oh, the X goes here. We've got to option route it. We can step to the right. You've got to cut, you've got to cut. That's all we need to block.

The best teams are the teams, like, in a hindsight that own it, right? And like, the 90s Cowboys and 86 Mets are the two teams I've written about where they really viewed their, it's like talking to someone 15 years after they were in a frat, right? And instead of being, like, you get past that awkward stage,

so maybe two years after you're in a frat, you don't wanna tell the story about the time you threw up and the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But 15 years later, you just find it really funny and fun and endearing and you actually relish those times. And I love the players and the teams that own that. And the 86 Mets guys mostly own that. And the 90s Cowboys owned it.

Right, yeah, that is sick. How do you find, like, who do you go to for the, like who are your sources to find out you find, who do you go to? Who are your sources to find out these stories? Do you interview players? What's your method for this? So my thing is, and I learned this at Sports Illustrated, there's a writer named Gary Smith,

this great, great writer, and he used to say, always make the extra call, always make the extra call, always make the extra call. So I have a, we talked before, I have a Tupac book coming out, and I interviewed 650 people for this book, right? So like, just as an example, a Tupac, like I'll find his high school yearbooks

and I will make a file for literally every single person in the yearbook. Not just every person in this class, every person in your book. And you reach out, you reach out, you reach out, you reach out. So for like a cowboy book, the first thing I do when I'm working on a book

is I go to eBay and I buy every media guide. So all these teams have media guides and those media guides list everyone. And yeah, they have Trey Iggman and Emmett Smith and those guys. But the people who are the most important, the big secret to it all is it's like the fifth wide receiver.

It's the running back who's in training camp for three weeks. I always say like the running back from Delaware State who is in camp with the cow camp for three weeks. I always say like the running back from Delaware State who was in camp with the Cowboys for three weeks is gonna remember everything about his experience there, even if Emmett Smith has no memory of that guy whatsoever. So like, it's not about just getting the big guys. In fact, the big guys have told their stories.

Magic Johnson has been interviewed a million times about the Showtime Lakers. Wes Matthews hasn't, you know, like, so I'm big in finding like the little guys, the secretaries, the ball boys, the equipment guys, like just digging deep and finding everyone who is there. And they're gonna protect the narrative less. Yo, 100%.

Number one, time makes people less protective of a narrative, but number two, like, they're just thrilled you're calling. Like they're thrilled you're calling and talking to them. And like, they wanna talk. this is the best time of their life So that's kind of way and so is someone like Tupac who's been so covered in media whether it be documentary or books or even I think You had like full feature-length film made about him What's something you think was missing from all those narratives that you found in your story?

so I think on a whole I think the I in your story? So I think on a whole, I think the, I think the thing that people miss about Tupac, and this might be a little obvious, but I don't know. The whole like thug life narrative, right? This whole thing, thug life, thug life. Tupac was a theater arts kid. And if you watch that footage, he's very flamboyant.

Very flamboyant, very effeminate. He went to the, first he went to the Baltimore School of Performing Arts, then he went to Tam High School in Northern California, and he was part of the arts program. And he was, he really was playing this role. Like he was, and he, like all the conspiracy theories about how he died, all this stuff, oh, blah, blah, blah, Diddy and Biggie and blah, blah, blah.

Like he just was a guy who started to believe his own hype about being a gangster and he wasn't. And like, he signed with Death Row and he signed with Suge Knight and he has all these guys from the bloods surrounding him, all these guys who live this life, and he starts to believe it, and he starts to think he's part of it, but he's not. And I interviewed a guy from the Mob Pirates, who was like, Tupac's death is the dumbest shit of all time, because he died because all these guys sold him this lifestyle idea, but he wasn't it. He couldn't fight, he had no athleticism,

he didn't know how to shoot a gun. He wasn't that guy, but he started to believe it. He method acted it. 100% method acted it. I guess the one moment for me, because I really admire him because I felt like he could embody any part of himself like 100% and there was an authenticity to it even when it was ugly.

He was like fully in it. But like when he got shot those six times in the studio, like he did throw up the bird on the way into the ambulance. So it's so funny. First of all, he wasn't shot six times. I was a myth, he was shot three times. Oh, still pretty good though. Sure, yeah, no, no, no, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I, it's funny. I, it's really interesting. He, I interviewed, I interviewed a shitload of people from that incident. That was a Quad Studios in New York City. He's put into the ambulance and I interviewed one of the of people from that incident. That was a Quad Studios in New York City. He's put into the ambulance, and I interviewed one of the EMTs from the ambulance. And Tupac did that twice.

He put the finger up twice. The first time was, he saw Biggie standing there, and he gave him the finger. And that whole thing that Biggie orchestrated this is total bullshit. It's just not true. It's just factually untrue. The second time, he gives a finger to one of the EMTs,

and the other EMT guy says to Tupac, he's like, Tupac, he goes, Tupac, we're literally trying to save your life here, why are you doing that? And Tupac immediately apologized. EMT told me, he was like, yo, man, I'm sorry, blah, blah, blah. And like, it was almost like living this kind of thing where it was like on autopilot a little bit, you know?

Yeah, Very bizarre. And very bright guy, right? Like when they found his house afterwards, it was just littered with books on the floor. His writing was insane. His poetry was insane. He was writing at such a high level. I found all these letters he wrote told girlfriends in high school that have never been shown before. And it's at a level like a million light years above his age.

He was a brilliant, brilliant writer. I read that poem, A Rose from Concrete, it's beautiful. Beautiful, he's a beautiful writer. He was a beautiful writer. Even if you just listen to the lyrics, like I was driving over here and I was listening to hear the song on the, not one of his greatest songs, but there's a song called Life Goes On

that was on the all eyes on me album And it's a freaking beautiful poetic and it's probably his 70th best song but he just was a brilliant writer. He really was a but he was more Bob He was way more Bob Dylan than he was easy Right And so for you when you're writing one of your sports books Do you find it more interesting challenging exciting to write about a team or an individual? Always an individual. I always regret the team books at some point, even though it winds up working out. Okay. Because, um, the tough thing about team books is, I mean, I don't know, like, 2000 Lakers, 2001 Lakers, 2002 Lakers, 2003 Lakers. Then they played Portland, then they played Houston,

then they played OKC. Then there is a repetitiveness to seasons that you really have to snap out of. And the key to doing that is finding new characters and finding little characters who do things or little moments. But the risk is that it does get repetitive. And the Lakers three championships.

So I wrote a book, Threeing Circus, about the Shack-Cobierre. but I really can't tell you're now sitting here I mean they beat Philly then they beat New Jersey. Indiana was the first one right? Indiana Philly New Jersey I guess it was but like they all kind of blend together after a while so the hard challenge for me is finding new characters. Like how do you signpost those things so they feel distinguishable? So then I'm like, all right, what's new here? Like the Lakers one year, they had this little shooting guard named Mike Penberthy.

There's this guy off the bench, he was a scrappy white guy, he was an NAIA player. And I was all about Mike Penberthy. And Mike Penberthy, that was the Iverson year. Penberthy in the lead up to the finals against the Sixers, Penberthy mimicked Allen Iverson in all their workouts. And he became this, excuse me, embodiment of Allen Iverson. So a lot of my focus turned to someone

like Mike Penberthy, all right, that's interesting. Mike Penberthy is interesting. Maybe most fans don't give two shits about Mike Penberthy, but I become obsessed with him, so that kind of thing. I remember there was a cool story where he was coming to the facility and they didn't let him in. Because they're like, you're not on the team, bro.

And then his wife like went on Twitter, like his wife tweeted and let it out and stuff. It was kind of interesting. The best. The best thing about Penberthy, the best thing about that are Shaq by far. Right. And Penberthy shows up. He's from having a brain freeze in the college. It's a college in LA.

It's an NAI school that like his great grandfather founded. Anyway, Penberthy shows up. He owns one suit. He bought it a college in LA. It's an NAI school that his great grandfather founded. Anyway, Penn Berthie shows up. He owns one suit. He bought it off the rack at Nordstrom's. Shaq is like, yo man, you need some suits. And Penn Berthie's like, he brings his personal trailer, his personal tailor to Penn Berthie's hotel room, suits him with all these suits.

Another time Shaq, just unrelated, you guys remember Mark Madsen? Of course, yeah. Of course, the Mad Dog. Yeah, Mad Dog, you guys remember Mark Madsen? Of course, yeah. Of course, the Mad Dog. Yeah, Mad Dog, he's a Mormon, he's a devout guy. They start flying and when they're flying, wherever they go, Shaq is like,

he'll go to the flight attendant, so he'll be like, yo, are you a Mormon? Because this guy here, he's like, he was trying to be his Mormon matchmaker. It's amazing. Yeah, he was the best. Thinking about that Laker team too, I thought it was almost kind of like Tupac,

where Kobe wasn't like a street guy But he was trying to embody that to the league because he felt like that was the archetype that you needed to be Yeah, very much. Was it hard for you cuz your book I think came out right after he passed away He's finished before came out after and the book is really I think fair but hard on Kobe Yeah, were you at all nervous about blowback? Yeah, very much. Did you get a lot? Not as much as you would think I got looks I think the difference are you so Pete and I got one Walter Paden when? Sweetness came out. I just got destroyed in Chicago. That book came out. What happened with that real quick is um, Sports Illustrated ran an excerpt of the book before the book came out and the cover of the magazine that week and this is

When magazine still resonated was Walter Paden, the hero nobody knew, an excerpt by Jeff Pearlman, right? Which was huge for me. But the excerpt was all about Walter Paden womanizing, end of his life, depression, et cetera. Then the book isn't coming out for two weeks, or three weeks. So the blowback was really bad.

And like Mike Dicka had been the coach of that team, and a local reporter asked him on air, he goes, hey coach, what would you say to the author if he was here right now? And Dicka goes, what would I say to him? And the guy goes, yeah, what would you say to him? He goes, I'd say this. And he spits on the ground.

I was like, fuck, well this isn't gonna be, this is not, they did not send me, I was supposed to do all this media in Chicago. There was a book burning online of my book in Chicago. It was messed up crazy. So I definitely had that in my mind with Kobe thing because I finished the book, Kobe dies tragically, the book is coming out and I'm like,

this isn't gonna be good. The difference is I think people knew who Kobe was and I don't think people knew who Walter Payton was. You know what I mean? Like it would not shock. We all we all went through Eagle, Colorado. We all know he had the whole situation in Eagle. So it wasn't a shock to write about it.

We all knew he was kind of a pain in the ass. Like nobody nobody with Lakers was like, oh, he's so easy to do it. Like he was a pain in the ass. He was a diva. He was a hardworking, amazingly talented, had a lot of good side diva, but he was a pain in the ass. Personality wise, he seems like he was a pretty hard dude to be around. Very much so.

Yeah, and do you think LA fans, we almost love him in spite of that? Like that's almost part of the reason we love him is because of the flawed kind of backstory? No, I disagree actually. I think the number one thing about him, you made this, but you guys made, I'm from New York. What I found really interesting is,

I think he came to personify grittiness. And like being in the gym at three in the morning and shooting 5,000 jumpers. And doing everything in your power to be great. Like I think he really, and you had the yin and yang of Shaq and Kobe, where Shaq didn't personify that. Shaq personified, it's off season, I'm gonna be in my pool.

And Kobe personified, it's off season, I'm gonna be in my pool. And Kobe personified, it's off season, I'm gonna be shooting jumpers. I just think people found that very relatable and admirable. During the Kobe eras, our parents would praise, I remember our dads like praising Kobe being like, he's going through these trials, man, but he's really focused and putting up points. And it's like, I don't know, like,

it's pretty amazing like you're doing well at work, but like, you probably should just be with your family. Or like, his ability to compartmentalize was like enviable to most people. I actually think, all right, it's funny. I've thought about this a lot. People would be like, if Shaq were more like Kobe, he'd be the best, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?

If Shaq had Kobe's work, like, okay, both their careers are over, Kobe has passed, et cetera. I would have much rather had the Shaq experience and the Kobe experience. Like, what are you working for if you don't enjoy it? Why are you playing if you're not in your pool in the off season? Like, you need to be in your pool.

And I actually think like, in a way like Kobe died young, it was hardly tragic and awful, right? Like, I think of my own life, like, am I gonna miss the days I spent 12 hours writing or am I gonna miss the days where I was in a pool with my kids you know like and I just think people in a way got it wrong like you work so you can enjoy your life and I think Shaq had it right and look at Shaq now and look at the decency exemplifies and the kind of the warmth he exemplifies and the Carpe Diem sort

of thing he has going on I just think he has it right and do you think he really would have been better if he had practiced that much? Yeah. Or you think so? Sure. But like he was still great. I'm like honestly God like this is totally old man to me but like the whole like man if Shaq, Shaq what a waste. He could have been one of the five best centers of all time. Like who gives a shit? Yeah he's like he could have been maybe the second best center centers of all time. Like, who gives a shit? Yeah, he's like, he could have been

maybe the second best center, he's like the third best center. And what? What do you get for that? What do you get for that? He was in his pool with a bunch of hot women, smoking a cigar, drinking a brandy, on a big ass floaty in Orlando, Florida, in like 1998.

Like, you never get that back. You never get that back. You never get that back. That youth, that innocence, the wealth, everything about that moment is like enviable. And who get it? Wow, you could have been, now he's behind Kareem. He could have been ahead of Kareem. Like, who cares?

Yeah, I guess not to get too like macro about it, but like I had a French physical therapist one time and it was after France won the World Cup. And he was like, you know, we care more about if they play beautifully than if they win the World Cup. Is that like a uniquely American thing where we're like, no, it's about like how much you suffer for your craft and how many victories you can squeeze out of that?

I just think we've gotten, and maybe it's, I don't know if it's just America or not, but we've gotten caught up. Like in a lot of ways, sports arguments seem to matter more than sports and like top five centers of all time. Kareem, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. You know like, who's the greatest? Who's the goat?

This fucking word drives me crazy. Like who's the goo? Blah blah blah. Who cares? Like I feel like we are so obsessed with this culture now of like, who's the best? Who's the greatest? Here's my top five.

Here's Stephen A. Smith with my top five so and so. Here's Skip Bayless with my top 10 so and so. Who gives a shit? Like why do we actually give a shit? Just enjoy the freaking game. Why do you think we wanna rank? We do it all the time on here. Why do you think we wanna rank?

Yeah, I do it too in my head. Cause we're losers, I don't know. Like it's so stupid. Honestly, why? Like why? I don't know, cause this is something, who did I talk, I talked about this with an athlete recently.

I was like, I think maybe it was Sean Green. You guys remember Sean Green? You had a baseball player for the Dodgers, yeah. He's a really nice guy. So it's like, what do we enjoy more? Sports or talking about sports? Like, what do we enjoy more? Watching the offensive lineman,

the Lions picked number eight, play for the Lions, or talking about the Lions, taking the offensive lineman number eight. I think it's inarguably we enjoy talking about them more. I don't know why, I just think that is. Well, especially now, especially with basketball, where people don't even watch the games, but it's just all about the kind of running narratives

alongside of it. Yeah, actually, my son and I, my son's a senior, excuse me, a freshman in college, and we've been talking about this phenomenon of like, who's actually watching the NBA games? People just watch their 10 second highlights. So like, what are we doing? What are we even doing?

If nobody watches the games, but we know all the players, but we watch their highlights and we're ranking them, but we don't see them do anything except weird highlights. Like we're not watching them set picks on the, you know, we're not watching the little things. It's weird, I don't know, it's just weird. Sports has gotten weird. It is.

You know, we need it though. It's like, I think we talk about these greatest of all times because one, it's a pretty easy thesis and narrative to have, but also two, it bonds generations. Like, if I'm like, like I don't talk to my dad that much, and when I do call him, I'll be like, shit man, do you see that Otani pitched or whatever? Like you like need that.

You know what I mean? He'll be like, well, I remember when Nolan walked out, you know, back at Angel Stadium, you were there. Like, well, it's like, and I think it's just an accessible, easy way. Also, it's sort of a my dad beat up your dad thing. Where like, if I'm like, Jordan's the best, no LeBron's the best.

We embody our generations and take it serious. Like, we take it personal. Like you're threatening me and it's like, I have nothing to do with these athletes and they don't care about me if I met them. That's so funny. It is fun to get into the minutia of it too. Where you're like, well, Jordan, like you were allowed me and it's like, I have nothing to do with these athletes and they don't care about me if I met them. That's so funny. It is fun to get into the minutiae of it too, where you're like, well, Jordan,

like you were allowed to hand check on D and you're like, oh, but you weren't allowed to play zone defenses so they could clear out for, and so it's fun for me as like a nerd to just get into the minutiae of that and be like, who actually had it easier? Who's the more skilled? And it's, to me, it feels like the guys today

are more skilled. I don't know what the virtues were of those 90s players that would differentiate them in a better way from the players today, but I think there are more skilled. I don't know what the virtues were of those 90s players that would differentiate them in a better way from the players today, but I think there are some there. My favorite thinking is this. All right, I love this. If you took the best Larry Bird Celtics team. 86.

I'm going to make an argument. People are going to disagree as strongly. Okay, you take the 86 Celtics, you got Bird, you got Parrish, you have Johnson, you have McHale. It's a great, great team. And you travel them through history. OK, they go time travel and they arrive at the Brooklyn Nets arena, and they have to play the 24, 25 Brooklyn Nets.

They get smoked. They get absolutely smoked. They will lose that game by 40 points. And I'm not saying they don't get training, they don't get time, we're just taking them and we're putting them now. They get run off the court, the athleticism, the size, the pool, the talent pool is so international now. They would just get smoked. But do you think the cream of the crop from that era someone like Larry Bird, if he was given like maybe a year to like be developed

with the current training modalities could keep up with the NBA guys? But I'm saying if you just took them, Bird, after the game he's drinking three slits. Like when I was coming to baseball, I come to baseball at Sports Illustrated back in the late 90s. That was your beat, right? That was my beat.

That was the story around the most dated. Yeah, late 90s, early 2000s. Those guys were still cracking beers in the clubhouse after games. Still, now it's a non-thing. Like it does not exist. So like the way people took care of themselves is just so different.

What's different about baseball players' personalities versus some of the other big sports? All right, so this, I have to date myself a little. This goes back to when I was covering it mainly. Baseball players were the worst. They were, no, they were terrible. They were kind of the biggest dicks. They were so bad.

And, but I was covering them in the starry air. So they were like really moody in hindsight and really prickly. I'm like, you would, there's no worse place for a writer than a major league baseball clubhouse. So clubhouse would open whatever two hours before game. And let's say you're covering the Cincinnati Reds and you need like whoever,

their second baseman back in the day, Poki Reese. Love Poki Reese. Poki Reese,, you remember that? Do you remember? Just great name, great guy. Yeah, great name. Weirdly they had a shortstop named Gookie Dawkins at the same time.

So Pokey Reese and Gookie Dawkins is pretty freaking good. Neither one was acting for black. Baseball has the best names for sure. So I would, you'd enter the clubhouse and you'd be standing there and you are the nerd with the cool kids. Like you are the nerd with the cool kids. You have your stupid badge around your neck and you're wearing standing there. And you're the nerd with the cool kids. Like you are the nerd with the cool kids. You have your stupid badge around your neck

and you're wearing your discount rack clothing because you can't afford how they dress and you're waiting. And maybe Pokey recedes you waiting. And he knows you're waiting for him, but he pretends to be doing something. The worst was Barry Bonds. Actually, I'll even tell you, the worst was Barry Bonds.

I've never met a human being ever, before or since, and this includes Donald Trump, who, he delights in your displeasure. Like Barry Bonds was unique, he delighted in your displeasure. We would wait around his locker, he had a chair like this,

like a bigger than this leather recliner, right? Yeah, four lockers, he was in front of four lockers at the end of the Giants Clubhouse. So he had his his own area he had a big-ass flat-screen TV in front of it he had his own masseuse in the clubhouse he had two publicists of his own he had his own photographer and this little guy named Stevie and I don't know what Stevie did and you would walk up to Bonds okay and Bonds would know you there because it's after a game and you'd have his back to you.

And he'd pretend to be going through mail and he'd be pretending to talk to someone. Hey, this is bullshit, huh? This is bullshit. And some reporter would be like, hey Barry, you'd have to throw some softball first. He'd be like, hey Barry. So that home run you hit off, or tease,

that was a good shot. And he would pretend not to hear you. He'd pretend not to hear you, to there and just go like this. And then some other reporter would be like, hey Barry, was that a fastball or slider? You know it was a fucking slider. You know that was a fucking slider.

So was it, I mean, what'd you think of that pitch? What'd I think of that pitch? It was a fucking bullshit pitch. Why are you throwing that to me? I'm Barry fucking Bonds. And like slowly he would open up, but you had to work and you had a deadline. He knew you had a deadline.

He knew you were human beings with kids and wives and husbands and you had work to do and he didn't care. Do you think that arrogance helped him in his craft? Sure, but he was such a dick. Like I would never want to be him. And I used to think at the time, this will come back. I swear to God, I wrote a biography of Barry Bonds. This will come back and bite you. Like time, this will come back. I swear to God, I wrote a biography of Barry Bonds. This will come back and bite you.

Like one day this will come back and bite you. And it has because nobody wants him to work for them. Will you tell his ASU story? Yeah, well, he, all right, so Barry Bonds played at Arizona State. And I think it was his freshman year. They were on a road trip in Hawaii. And the captain of the diamond, excuse me,

of the Sun Devils was another outfielder named Odubbe McDowell. Great name. Really good guy. Played with the Rangers later on. And Barry was late for something and Odubbe McDowell was a captain, pulls him aside and says, uh, Hey Barry, you got to stay after and do extra running or something. And, uh, Barry Bond says, fuck you. I ain't doing shit. And McDowell was like, you know, why he's like, fuck you. I ain't doing shit. And McDowell was like, you know what?

He's like fuck you I ain't doing shit. So the head coach of the Sun Devils was this really old school grumpy, you know cigarette smoking coach named Jim Brock. And Odoamne McDowell goes up to Jim Brock and he's like yo Barry once again is being a dick and blah blah he won't do running and blah blah. Jim Brock holds a team meeting without Barry Bonds.

And he says I know we're all sick of Barry. He's incredibly talented. We're all sick of him. I get it. He's like, I'm gonna leave it to you guys. I'm gonna put it in your guys' hands. You guys vote if we keep him on the team. And if you vote to kick him off,

we will kick him off the team. He leaves. He comes back. They vote, I think it was 23 to two to kick him off the Arizona State team. Brock is like, wait, that didn't work the way I thought it would. Brock not giving power to the players,

they would be like, no, let's defend one of our brothers. No. Brock goes, was it unanimous? And Odubio-Dowell goes, no, it was 23 to two. And Brock goes, well, I can't kick him off if it's not unanimous. And Jim Brock lost the team that day. He truly lost the team that day.

And Bonds went on, I mean, he was probably right. Like Bonds was an amazing player. He was just a monumental asshole. Always. Yeah, they wanted to kick off the best player in the country just cause he was so hard to. There's an old Andy Van Slyke. Andy Van Slyke was a teammate of Bonds with the Pirates.

And when Bonds left for the Giants, Andy Van Slyke's quote, which I love is, I would rather lose without him than win with him. Whoa. Yeah, and a better quote, there's a team photographer for the Giants, Andy Van Slyke's quote, which I love is, I would rather lose without him than win with him. Whoa. Yeah, and a better quote, there's a team photographer for the Pirates named Pete Diana, and Barry Bonds goes to the Giants,

and he's on the Giants now. And the Pittsburgh Pirates, when they were building the stadium they're playing, they're doing construction, and two construction workers died, right? So this team photographer, Pete Diana, is gonna do a fundraiser for the families of the guys who died.

And every time visiting players come in, he gets them to sign stuff. So like Jeff Bagwell comes in, yeah, sign stuff. Sean Green comes in, sure, Sheffield, sure. Barry Bonds comes. Now when Barry Bonds was with the Pirates, Pete Diana used to give bonds, like free photos, all the time, all the time.

Hey Barry, we're doing a thing for blah, blah, blah, blah. He goes, fuck them and fuck you, I ain't signing shit. And the quote Pete Diana gave me when I asked him what he thought about Barry Bonds, his quote was, I hope Barry dies. Do you think the reason, Barry Bonds in my estimation, watching baseball grown up, greatest baseball player I've ever seen by a wide margin,

utterly dominated the game. Do you think part of the reason guys like him and Clemens aren't in the Hall of Fame isn't just because of the steroid stuff, it's also because people just found them personally distasteful? See Clemens was okay to deal with. Clemens wasn't at Bonds' level. Like Clemens could be grumpy and moody and whatever,

but Clemens was totally fine. I think Bonds, like all right, it's interesting. Bonds is a fascinating kind of case study because he used to say like, when he was chasing Hank Aaron's record, the all time home run record, he would be like, a black man in baseball gets no respect,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Okay, and he's not wrong. Like he's not wrong. There's a very long history in baseball of black ballplayers getting shit on, getting labeled, malcontents, getting labeled, dogs. If a black ballplayers getting shit on, getting labeled malcontents, getting labeled dogs. If a white ballplayer back in the day,

like in the 70s, needed a day off because his arm hurt, it was a white player needing a day off. If a black player did, oftentimes he's a maligner, he's a whiner. So Bonds was not wrong. The difference is, or the problem is, when you treat people like shit nonstop, when you treat your teammates like shit,

when you treat the fans like shit, when you treat the fans like shit, when you treat your manager like shit, you don't earn the benefit of the doubt. So like, do I think it's hurt him that he treated people like shit? A hundred percent. Do I think it's a reasoning? The thing about the Hall of Fame that's weird is like,

I was always against Bonds getting in. Really? Yeah, cause he was a fucking cheater. Like to me, I equate it the same way. If my kid, I have two kids, if my kid gets an A on a test, and then the teacher finds out she was copying all the answers, like, why am I defending the A?

I'm not defending the A. None of us would defend the A. None of us would defend the A. This guy cheated and cheated and cheated. I thought it was bullshit. I thought it was wrong. People would say, well, it wasn't illegal. First of all, it was illegal without a prescription.

Number two, if it wasn't wrong, why did they not tell anyone about it? Like, why were they hiding it the whole time? Even with the argument that before he got on the Roys, he was already like a three-time MVP? Yeah, because that shit ruined baseball. Like, I know people are like, oh, it saved baseball. When I was growing up, and I'm older than you guys,

like, and this is my grandpa moment, right? Like, the baseball record book meant a ton, like a ton more than any other sport for sure. I leave some bounds by any other sport. Joe DiMaggio was 57 game hitting streak. Fifty six. Fifty six. Oh, my God. He's fucked up. Fifty six. Ted Williams, the last guy to hit 400.

And in particular, Baybrewth's all-time home run record, which Hank Aaron broke, right? That meant stuff. And Roger Maris going 61, like those numbers meant stuff, like a lot. And Bonds and McGuire and Sosa and all these guys just come along and they shit on it. And the lowest moment I saw in baseball,

covering baseball was Bonds was about to break Hank Aaron's all-time home run record, and Hank Aaron hated Barry Bonds, and he hated what he was doing, and he knew it was bullshit, and Bud Selig was the commissioner of baseball, and Bud Selig knew Hank Aaron for a long time, and Hank Aaron did this. He wasn't at the game when Bonds broke the record.

He refused to do it, but he did this video message that they played at the Giants Stadium, packed out at the time, he refused to do it. But he did this video message that they played at the Giant Stadium, packed by all at the time. And it was just like, sad. It was like sad. Like, hey, this is the thing, honestly. Hank Aaron was getting death threats when he was about to break Baby Ruth's all-time home run record.

Literally, N-word, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. N-word, if you show up at the ballpark tonight, I will shoot you. You know, nonstop stuff. That was not just a baseball record That was a civil rights record and bonds comes along and he takes human growth hormones to the point where his head his skulls literally growing and he's right it up and like It's fine. I just I it drives me fucking crazy

There's my case and I know people disagree and I respect that I just for me. It's a thing. Sorry, man I know people disagree and I respect that. I just for me it's a thing. Sorry man. I know it's a terrible show. I would not go hang myself. I know it's a good take. I mean, it's, yeah, I guess the counter is like it's a museum and like if you go there

and you're gonna see like Craig Begio but you're not gonna see Barry Bonds. Is that a real representation of like what that era was like? Okay, that's a great question. And here's my point. Here's the thing. I was always against bonds getting in the hall. Okay, for years I my point, here's the thing. I was always against Bonds getting in the hall, okay?

For years I was against it, hardcore against it. I'm no longer against it. Because, Pudge Rodriguez is in the hall, definitely you stare at it. Bagwell, give me a break. Like Piazza, give me a break. David Ortiz, give me a break. And like, the thing about the hall is,

like Bonds was a dick, but if you're gonna let story users in, he has to be in. And you have to let McGuire in, and you have to let Sose in, and the truth of the hall is, like, Bonds was a dick, but if you're gonna let storage users in, he has to be in. And you have to let McGuire in, and you have to let Sose in, and the truth of the matter is you probably have to let Jose Kinseko in. And you certainly have to let Clemens in. So once the hall of fame voters decided,

we're gonna vote in the nice guys who use steroids, well then you just fucked everything up. So you might as well let everyone in. So now I'm very pro-Bonds getting in. And then Pete Rose, you feel? Okay, I was always against it, but he's such a scum. I mean he dies, I don't want to lie. He was so gross.

Yeah. He was gross, right? Like with the chicks and then the gambling stuff as well. He was like a walking oil slick. He was just disgusting, right? He really was. That being said, I always thought the thing they should have done is like baseball will have, like Joe Torre is in the Hall of Fame as a manager,

not as a player. They could have inducted Pete Rose as a player and not as a manager, and that's what I would have done. The thing that sucks is so now he's eligible again, and he's dead. And I hate when Hall of Fame's do this. Like it seems to me like in pro football, Cliff Branch and Ken Stabler of the Raiders

both got in after they died. Like, if he was good enough to get in after he died, why couldn't he have gotten in when he was alive and could have enjoyed it? It just seems actually cruel to me. It's like P. Rose waits his whole life to get in the hall and you're gonna put him in three years after he died? Like that's just a dick move.

Yeah, that is weird. And the other guy that seems to me was like your favorite. Reading you was like Michael Irvin. Yeah. And I came away, when we read it, we were like, dude, Michael Irvin's a fucking man. Yeah. I think he hated the book though.

Really? Yeah, I don't know. Well, cause he's like a pastor now, right? So is it just that it? I think, I mean, I guess if you think about it, like the thing is like, I understand, like we come along, like scissors to the neck is probably the lowest moment of his life.

And it's like the first five pages of my book. So I can. But I don't know, some of the stories where he wanted to be running the basketball team because that was a good vessel for partying. And then there was another guy who was the captain, Michael Irvin, was like, just fight me. And whoever wins is the captain.

Then he just beat the dude. He had such a gladiatorial spirit, but it felt fair and honest. You couldn't help but look up to him to but the other guy that I feel like Was your guy is Ricky Henderson. Oh, I never got to write a so Howard Bryant another Better writer me wrote a great Ricky Anderson biography of years ago. I just I love Ricky Anderson Ricky Anderson was You guys know the check hanging the check story. I mean, you know the story Ricky Anderson was, you guys know the check hanging in the check story. I mean, do you know the story? Ricky Anderson, Ricky Anderson was with the A's.

This is a truth, there's so many myths about Ricky Anderson. Ricky Anderson with the Oakland A's. And he got, I think it was a $1 million bonus for maybe making the All-Star team. I remember what the bonuses were. Okay, A's sent him a check. And the A's accounting office calls him like a couple months later,

hey Ricky, we noticed you haven't deposited the check and Ricky's like yeah, because Ricky framed it. And in Ricky's house his check is framed. And they're like, you know Ricky, we could send you another check that you can frame and you could actually deposit the money. He was just so, so flamboyant and I love that era of baseball. I love the stolen base and like Ricky Henderson would dango his fingers between his legs, leading off first, dare taking these enormous leads.

He was, to me, he's the best baseball player of all time. And one of the craziest athletes I've ever, like, I mean, cause he was leading, he was like top three in steals in his 40s. Yeah, he was ridiculous. He stole 130 bases one year. He was a leadoff hitter, right? And that's what was special about him

because he was, as a leadoff, had his batting average, which is insane. It's not even that. So he's not protected or something. Honestly, it's not even that. I'm telling you, you had to be there to see it. It's worth doing a YouTube search for Ricky Anderson highlights.

Ricky Anderson, he had the smallest strike zone. So he had this really tiny strike zone. He did this crouch and he would, pitchers hated facing him. And he was happy with a walk. If you get a walk, he'd get on first, he'd take this big ass lead, he was insanely fast and athletic,

fingers twitching, just daring you, throw over, throw over, throw over. As soon as you don't throw over, he's gone, steals second. Same thing, second base, big ass lead, steals third. And all of a sudden, instead of a guy on first and a batter, you have a guy on third, no outs, you're number two, hit her up. Like he just changed the game and he could hit with power,

he ran everything. He's the best player ever. And ahead of his time, where like the Bill James era hadn't kind of taken over management yet, but he, like, if you look at the kind of saber metrics of it, he was, yeah, like you're saying tops in on base percentage,

tops in like war. If he played today with the rules in baseball, he would steal 200 bases. Cause you can only throw over, I don't even know how many times it is, but once you can't throw over anymore, he's gone. He's just gone. He was so good.

As a baseball fan, this has kind of been a point of debate on the podcast. Do you like the movie Moneyball? Ooh, yeah. Ah, it's a great question. Wait, what's the vote here on Moneyball? We love it. Our old producer at All Things Comedy,

he's a huge baseball fan. He hates it. And we're always like, I love the movie. And yeah, that's my take. And we know his beef. You probably know his beef with the movie. He might have the same beef. I'm sure. Yeah. Okay. First of all, I want to say my wife loves Moneyball. Brad Pitt, dude. He's killing it. Catherine loves Moneyball. Yeah, what's Brad Pitt, Hubba Hubba, you know the whole thing.

And also like, it's Factory a good movie. Like Factory is a good movie. The actor who plays Ron Washington is great. You know, when they're in the house trying to get Hadda Berg to come and he's saying it's very hard, you know. I was covering a lot of baseball at that time and I actually was covering a lot of Oakland A's at that time because I was the number two baseball writer

at Sports Illustrated. Tom Verducci was number one, I was number two, and I was a diss in number two. So like, Verducci would get the Yankees and get like the big teams, the Dodgers, and I would get like the Mets and the A's, and the A's were good, this is Jason D'Amico in that era. Okay.

Barry Zito, Mark Mulder, Tim Hudson, were three of the five best starting pitchers in baseball. Their names are probably mentioned in that movie, a collective total of one time maybe. Billy Koch was one of the best closers in baseball. Okay, Miguel Tejada played shortstop for those A's. He was fucking awesome. Eric Chavez was a third baseman, almost equally awesome.

But Scott Hattaberg won the, like, that team was really good. Like really good, not a little good, like really good. And they had the three of the five best starting pitchers in baseball in that staff. And they don't mention that shit at all. Chad Bradford throwing submarine is the reason they, so like. And he's like a middle relief guy. They're all like, and I'm not saying Billy Bean was cool.

I love covering Billy Bean. He was fun. He was a nice guy. He would always make you take your calls back. He was great. But like it was an enormous exaggeration on the impact of quote unquote moneyball. Yeah. Do you like Billy Beane?

I love Billy Beane. Have you? Do you know him? Yeah. I mean I knew him from covering baseball. He's great. He's great. Have you had him on the show?

I heard a story about him that when he was young and he got drafted and he was like this top. My friend who played minor league ball told me this. He used to go to bars and to prove his friends he had game without the status, he would tell all the girls there that his job was cleaning roadkill off the road. That sounds about right.

I'll tell you a funny Billy Beane story. So you know there are two Billy Beanes who played during this era and one came out after he was done playing. And he became like an advocate for gay athletes, this guy Billy Beane, really good guy. And they spelled the last names different, but there's Billy Bean and Billy Bean.

And Brian Cashman, the Yankees GM, and Billy Bean, the A's GM, were very close. And when the other Billy Bean came out, Brian Cashman, I don't know if it was text or email, but he writes Billy Bean and he goes, hey man, congrats on your move. It's a big one for you. It's just really fun.

That's great. So of all the athletes you've covered, which is we're talking about a ton, which one had the worst gas? Like literal gas or do you mean? Farted the worst. Well, I got farted in the face from, there was a Marlins third baseman named Wes Helms.

And I remember we were all standing at the dugout in the clubhouse in the Marlins and baseman named Wes Helms. And I remember we were all standing in the dugout in the clubhouse in the Marlins and he deliberately farted on us. So. What a savage. You guys asked about what baseball, what was baseball like to cover? There you go, getting farted by Wes Helms.

Hilarious. You know, I was kind of fishing for someone cause I read the Brett Favre one. And I guess after he got his intestines taken out Oh yeah. And he fell in the car crash. That is true. But what you're speaking to seems like, is that the humor of most club houses is

like a lot of ass smack and farting and like, it was back in the day. You think it's changed now? Yeah. I think number one, you have many more women reporters in the clubhouse. I think that's made a difference in a good way. I think number two, like everything changed with the eye think number two, like everything changed with the iPhone. Like everything changed with the iPhone.

Everything changed with the iPhone, not just in our lives, but in the lives of athletes. Like you were always on. It's like when I wrote the book about the 86 Mets called The Bad Guys 1, like they would go out to bars in Long Island, they'd be partying, they'd be getting drunk. You didn't have to worry about someone with your phone filming you.

Now, if you're Wes Helms, you turn around and fart in a bunch of rider faces, it's probably going viral somewhere. Did you like when he farted? Like did you laugh? I fucking hated it. No, I hated it. I hated clubhouses.

The baseball clubhouse is the worst. It is the most humiliating. You just feel so small in a clubhouse being a baseball rider. It sucks. And the other thing is, is like, I was kind of a wuss back in the day. Like you get your confidence as you get older

and you get your feet under you and your legs under you. But I was like a nervous young writer just trying to make it. So like they were the cool kids and I was the nerd. That's how it was. Guys, I'm erupting this podcast later once again that we were brought to you by Brodage. Brodage is the best skincare game and skincare biz in the game.

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Rocker story. Like you put that story out that got him. I wrote the story. Right. That where he made the crazy quotes about being on the subway in New York that was like xenophobic. It covered all the boxes of kind of hatred. Was it hard for you to go into clubhouses after that with guys knowing you were behind that story? It fucking sucked. Because all right. So baseball is also a very conservative world. I don't mean politically, I mean socially. And it is also a very tight knit world.

So I write the story about John Rocker. He says all these things he shouldn't say. I don't know if you guys know about this, but we can pull up the quote so we can. I mean, John Rocker was a recent all these things he shouldn't say. I don't know if you guys know about this, but. We can pull up the quotes so we can. I mean, John Rocker was a race of baseball player in the 90s. Okay. And I did a, that was my breakout story in a lot of ways.

Like the story that kind of put me on the quote unquote map. And this is, it came out in 1999 in Sports Illustrated. I spent the day profiling this baseball player. A really good pitcher for the Braves. And among other things, he told me like, well, I'm just gonna have to break into this a little. It's like the craziest, it is the craziest story of my career,

is I went down to do a profile with John Rocker. He picks me up in Georgia, we're driving around. He, the first thing I'm in the car with him, and there's a car in front of us driving like this, erratically. And he goes, fucking Asian women, man. Asian women cannot fucking drive. And we go to pass the car, and it's a fucking Asian women, man. Asian women cannot fucking drive. And we go to pass the car

and it's a white guy driving the car. We got to a toll booth. It's a toll booth where they used to have like the chains baskets, like a chains collector. He throws in some money, thing doesn't open. There isn't more money, thing doesn't open. Guy behind us starts honking. He rolls down his window, goes, fuck you, right?

This is with a reporter from Sports, okay. Amazing dude. Thing doesn't open, he spits on the toll booth, finally somehow gets over, hugs a loogie on him. We're driving to a school, I'm going with him to speak to a school of disadvantaged children. It's amazing. You know, it's like my money story in life.

It's like how he spouted him down or something. He's based on him, Kenny Powers is based on John Robb. He's based on John Robb. That's unbelievable. Okay, there you go. It's all my money story in life. It's like he's spouting down or something. This is based on him. Kenny Powers is based on John Rocker. He's based on John Rocker. That's unbelievable. OK, there you go. It's all coming together. Oh my gosh. So we're driving to this school to talk to Disadvantaged Kids.

Oh my god. I also just want to say, to preface this, I called to set up this interview with John Rocker and his agent. I was like, hey, I want to come down and hang out with John Rocker. He's like, oh man, you're going to fucking love John. He's the best. You know, love this guy. He's the best.

You know, love this guy. It's the best. We're driving to school for disadvantaged kids. Clearly a setup for like, reporter with athlete story, right? We're driving there. I'm like, so do you like speaking to kids and disadvantaged kids?

He's like, fucking man, I hate it. Like, I got him. He's like, do you want me to do it? I love his honesty. Wait, we get there. We're at this school in Bumblefuck, Georgia. He, he, they played, do you guys remember, we're at this school in Bumblefuck, Georgia. He, they played, you guys remember, you're a little younger than me,

but the Twisted Sister song, I Wanna Rock. Yeah. Oh yeah. So that was his entrance song, cause rocker, I wanna rock, rock. Okay, this little school, he comes out, he speaks to him, kids are like, yeah, he's good. John Rocker's good. We're leaving the school.

It was the CD age still. There's the Twisted Sister greatest hit CD. He bobs it and steals it. He robs it. He's like, oh no. I'm like, what the fuck? We're driving around. He's like, you're from New York.

I'm like, yeah. He goes, I fucking hate New York. He goes, you know what I really hate? And this is a quote, so I believe in none of this. He's like, freaking seven train. You got some with AIDS sitting next to some so-and-so. I'm literally like a Jewish guy from New York. You are in the wrong audience.

Times a million, right? Yeah. He's the whole thing. He called a black teammate a fat monkey. Oh my gosh. Like all this shit, like crazy stuff all day. Anyway, at one point, the moment I found the most, well there are a few moments, at one point his girlfriend got in the car with us

and I went to the back seat. So I'm like the kid in the back seat with the girlfriend of John Rocker. We're driving around, girlfriend, she's very nice, she gets out of the car. He immediately calls his other girlfriend. Like as soon as he leaves the car, calls his other girlfriend.

We go out for lunch. We're walking along a strip mall to a lunch place and he has a pen in his hand. And he just drops the pen, right? He just drops a pen on the sidewalk. And I picked up the pen, I thought it was an accident. I'm like, hey, you dropped your pen. He goes, no, dude, I meant to do that.

And I remember thinking like, this was my big moment. I've said this so many times, this is true. You're a human being, okay? You have a pen in your hand, right? There's a garbage can over there, but you make the decision to drop the pen on the sidewalk. Like what that says about you is so. My friend Fanto's like that.

Really, it's like so like, you're done with the pens, you're just gonna leave it for the janitorial staff to pick up? It's a statement, yeah. It's a statement. So that was my day with John Rocker. And at the end of the day, he's like, yo bro, that was cool. And I was like, okay.

And I wrote the story and this is way pre Twitter. This is the end of 99, the final issue of 1999 Sports Illustrated. It just like Will Ferrell wound up spoofing John Rocker at SNL, he was suspended, he was fined, he was demoted. He had to do sensitivity training. It was a crazy, and now he's on Twittering John Rocker on SNL. He was suspended, he was fined, he was demoted. He had to do sensitivity training. It was a crazy, and now he's on Twitter, John Rocker. He's resurfaced on Twitter, and his big thing

is that Michelle Obama is really a man. That's his big. That's his big. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah, so I don't think that's true. I just wanna say. I don't think.

Call me crazy. I think she's a she. Oh my gosh. And how did you land on Tupac for your next book? What inspired that? She's right here. Call me crazy. I think she's a she. Oh my gosh. And how did you land on Tupac for your next book? What inspired that? I wanted to do something besides sports just to do something different.

I love hip hop. I'm your typical guy. It's a very common story in America of the white guy who grows up in a very small town with three black kids in his class, two in my case. One of them is your best friend. He's listening to Public Enemy. You start listening to Public Enemy.

Then you start listening to Big Daddy Kane and all these different artists. And all of a sudden you love hip hop too. And you're the white kid in your school who loves hip hop. And that was sort of my trajectory, going from a guy who listened to only Hall and Oates to a guy who's loving hip hop. And I just, I find Tupac fascinating, like fascinating.

And there's so much rumor and innuendo and gossip. And I just thought someone's right, like a great, great biography on this guy. So I just figured I'd try. I'm not saying it's great, but I tried. Do you think, did he actually sleep with Faith Hill? That is crazy. No.

You don't think so? No. I don't. When he was on stage at House of Blues and he's like, you know, I don't think she's that cute, but this is fucking war. So I had to get it. Well, you know, hit them up the whole, you know, that's what happened. Oh, not faith hills.

Sorry. Faith Evans. Faith Evans. Yeah. No, Faith Hill. I was thinking the same thing. Right now Faith Hill. She's like, I'm not a lawyer. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Right now, Faith Hill is preparing her lawsuit for yourself. Yeah.

Or she's living her best life. Yeah. No, I don't think. It's somehow true. She's like, oh my God, they found out. I will say she definitely was around him after he got out. And I interviewed one of the women he was dating. And she said she showed up one day at his apartment

and there's Faith in the apartment with Tupac. So I don't know if it's her. She's always denied it very strongly, so I don't know. He and Jada Pinkett, they dated, right? They dated. Oh no, no, they didn't date. They went to the Baltimore score, they are together. Okay, so they were like best friends?

They were very, very close. Okay, got it. Yeah, and yeah, so then, and then there was always these weird, awkward feelings with Will Smith about Tupac. I'm sure, yeah. together. Okay so they were like best friends? They were very very close. Okay yeah and um yeah so then and then there was always these weird awkward feelings with Will Smith about Tupac. I'm sure yeah. He's never fully embraced Tupac. What do you think of Will Smith's recent comeback to rap? Oh my god wait it's so funny you asked that. I actually listened to the album. So my son is a huge hip-hop head. I take some credit for that. And I was like, let's both listen to Will Smith's album. I don't like dogging artists because I know what it's like to get a bad book review

and it's no fun. The thing is, it's kind of like this. Truly it's like this. It's like Will Smith isn't, what he called rap isn't rap anymore. Like what he was doing, you know, getting jiggy with it and parents just don't understand. Like that's not what rap is anymore.

So it's like taking a country artist from like 1950 and putting him in 2025 country. It's just, it's not the same thing. So it can't work. And what do you think inspired him to, it seems like such a weird move to me to go back to rap in your late fifties. Desperation. Yeah. Don't you think inspired him to, it seems like such a weird move to me to go back to rap in your late 50s. Desperation.

Don't you think desperation? It's what it feels like. Yeah, it's a bad. It's a bad look. I mean the thing is, Will Smith had this thing, like 90s, early 90s Will Smith, actually the getting jiggy with it Will Smith, there was a period of time when Will Smith

was the coolest person in the world. And he was like carefree, cool Will Smith, jiggy with it and it was great and but once that stuff is gone Yeah, it's gone and it's gone. Yeah, do you think hip-hop is more ageist than other musical genres? That's such a good question. Okay, we talked about this a lot Slick Rick has a new album out. I like Slick Rick. It's good. Yeah, it's really good. He has a song with Nas It's really good every now has a song with Nas. It's really good. Every now and then someone cracks through. The thing that's interesting about hip hop is we are really now the first generation because it's a new medium still

of having oldie artists. Right. There have been you know there have been chubby checker concerts 30 years after he was done years ago. Elvis, Fat Elvis at the end of his career. You know like we have but we haven't had that yet with hip hop. So now all of a sudden we have Slick Rick, we have LL Cool J, we have different guys who are now older artists, and I don't know what that's gonna look like. One of my favorite artists is a guy, Big Daddy Kane.

Big Daddy Kane was an amazing rapper, and I saw a quote from him somewhat recently where he's like, nobody wants new music from me and I understand that. So I'm not gonna do new music. When people come to a show, a Big Daddy Kane show, they wanna hear, I get the job done. They wanna hear the songs I did in the 80s

and I understand that. And I think that's a safe and wise space. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing a new album, but it's very, very hard to crack through. To get a little conspiratorial too, with Tupac, his mom was a Black Panther and she had a famous court case where she like.

Panther 21. Yeah, she defended herself and did like a really good job. Yeah. Did you see that there was any government involvement or like oversight with Tupac? Like were they watching him? And then you also hear now about like, how the government would like pump up

abstract expressionism to like help Thwart communism somehow by like spreading American ideas. Did you see anything one way or the other with his music that way? No, but I think um, so the the Panther 21 tryout basically to box mother of any Shakur was a was a black panther and It's a long story, but she was living in New York City and the government planted these informants with the Black Panthers, accused them of doing all these things they weren't really doing,

put them on trial in New York City. There are 21 Black Panthers on trial. A couple ran off to different countries. But Afeni was assigned a court attorney, assigned a court order attorney, and said, no, I'm gonna defend myself. And Afeni Shacour at the time was pregnant, she was 21, she was a high school dropout,

and she won the case. It was amazing. People should be learning about Ifeni Shakur in school, and they don't. I had no idea who she was before I got into Tupac. It was amazing. And she was rightly incredibly paranoid throughout her life. Incredibly paranoid throughout her life.

Wouldn't walk the same route twice, covered walls with peanut butter so you couldn't get fingerprints, like all these kinds of things. That paranoia 100% filtered down to Tupac, like 100% where he was nervous about everything. He did a movie with Jim Belushi called Gang Related. Yeah, he's good in that.

He's great in it. Movie's not great, but he's great. And he had a bodyguard with him the whole time. And I just talked to people on the set and they were like, he was just always paranoid, always nervous. Who was coming to get him? What was coming to get him? What was coming, who's going to try to kill him?

And that is what came down from his mom. But I don't think the government was tracking too much. And is that part of why he became that kind of like thug devil may care dude? What do you mean by devil may care? Like, cause it looked like he was living so out loud and like was so much like abrasive intensity that he was almost like,

it was like he was going at the threat. That was his way of dealing with the threat was like going straight at it. All right, so it's interesting. Someone, who was it who said to me? Someone said, Tupac, and this is true, Tupac was terrified or was obsessed with death All right, so it's interesting. Someone who was he said to me, someone said to Park. And this is true. Tupac was terrified or was obsessed with death from a very early age. Right.

And one thing, so I spent a lot of time in Marin City where Tupac spent his senior high school and time after. And it was back in the day, this crack filled like crack. His mom was a serious crack addict in Marin City at this time. And I interviewed a lot of the crack dealers from the time. Like I tracked them all down and I sat down with them. It was amazing, it was just the best education in my life. And the one thing all of them said, some variation of,

is basically there was this thing for black men at the time called the Hill. And basically, are you gonna live past the Hill? And the Hill was age 20. Are you gonna make it past 20? Are you gonna make it past the Hill? And Tupac always assumed he would not. And he was always living this life assuming I'm not.

And one of his friends said to me, he was always taking death on head first. And he was always putting himself in positions where he could die because he assumed he was going to anyway. The comp weirdly is Mickey Manil. Mickey Manil, famous Yankee. Mickey Manil's dad and I think grandpa died very young.

And Mickey Mano always assumed he was gonna die young. So he was drinking and partying and drinking and partying, trying to squeeze everything out of life because he just didn't think he would last. And I kept thinking of Mickey Mano. It's a weird comparison when I was researching Tupac. No, but I get it.

And I think you kind of feel that from both of them when you watch them. I mean, like Mickey Mantle told grainy footage and stuff. But like when you hear old timers talk about watching him play baseball, I think there's something about the, the intensity they brought to life was like ephemeral. And that's kind of what makes them special. Yeah. I mean, the thing about Tupac,

like his death is infuriating. Like he was truly his death is infuriating. He was raised by a Black Panther. He was raised with this really important and valuable idea of Black value, of Black empowerment, of Black pride, standing up for yourself, et cetera, right? And he basically dies in Vegas after it was after the Mike Tyson, Bruce Seldon fight in 96.

He's with a bunch of guys from Death Row and they see this guy Orlando Anderson walking through the casino and Orlando Anderson a few weeks earlier had gotten in a fight with a guy named Trayvon Lane who was part of the Death Row crew and Trayvon Lane sees Orlando Anderson walking through the hallway through the MGM because he's wearing an enormous triple XL or double XL Dan Marino Miami Dolphins Jersey. That's what Orlando Anderson was wearing. And this guy, Trey Von Lane says to Tupac, that's a guy who jumped me at the sporting goods stores. And Tupac's like, that fucker.

He's like, yeah. Tupac walks up to him and goes, hey, are you from the South? And the guy turns and Tupac just punches him. And all the death row guys come on and start kicking him and stomping on him. And then they run off, right? And like, I interviewed so many people about this,

it actually still gets me, like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, you're Tupac Shakur, you are surrounded by actual gang bangers there to protect you, why are you beating the shit out of some guy, a gang banger, and like, this is what's really interesting. So Orlando Anderson was a Compton Crips,

Orlando Anderson was gang affiliated too. he gets his ass kicked, right? he's with his guys including Keefe D his uncle and he gets his ass kicked they all know they got their ass kicked by Tupac and They they decide they're gonna find Tupac and they're driving around and They first go to a shook night had a club in Vegas. They park outside the club They're waiting to see Tupac there, they don't see him. Then they're just randomly driving around Vegas. Tupac is leaning out the window of Shug night's car,

hollering at women. And Orlando Anderson is like, holy fuck, there's Tupac. And they pull up on him and shoot him. And like, the thing is that the guiding thing that I can, I interviewed one of Orlando Anderson's closest friends, and he said to me something that I just think is 100% true. He's like, he's like, you have to understand,

Orlando Anderson could not come home having his ass kicked publicly by a fucking rapper. Like by a rapper, not a gangbanger, not a guy who'd serve time for blah, blah, blah, even though Tupac had served time, like by a fucking rapper. There'd be no credibility, he would never be able to show hisyte even though Tupac had served time, like by a fucking rapper. There'd be no credibility, he would never be able to show his face again.

So Tupac gave him no choice in the weird street kind of way, but to do it. And it was set fucking bullshit. And like, it still makes me angry because like, Tupac was not that guy and he played that role. And I interviewed a guy,

one of the guys, his name is Mob James and he's a former blood and he was affiliated with Shug Knight. And he's like, he goes to me, you wanna know why Tupac died? Cause they fucking sold him this act. And like the guys at Death Row sold him this bullshit act

that he was one of them and he was a gang banger and he was a fucking theater arts kid. And he never should have been doing that. And do you think we're attached to the more conspiracy idea of his death because there's like a little more meaning and order in that. Yeah.

And also because like you have a lot of places that make money off of the conspiracies. I'm actually being serious. Like a lot of YouTube channels where it's like, here's the real story of how Tupac died. And they'll pay some guy who met Tupac once or was loosely affiliated with death row and he'll come on and he'll give him a thousand bucks and he'll tell the crazy story about how did he do this and blah, blah, blah. But if you talk to people who are really involved and really new and were part of the death row inner circle, no one thinks Biggie had anything to do with him getting shot at Quad

and no one thinks that Diddy or any of those guys had anything to do with him getting killed in Vegas. In your research, did you see anything creepy about this guy P. Diddy that's in the news right now? Who's that? You mean Puff Daddy? Yeah, Puff Daddy. He loves baby oil.

Isn't that the craziest part? Everyone's like, he's guilty. I'm like, how do you know that? Like he had 80,000 gallons of baby oil. Like it has to be evil. I'm embarrassed to say that one of these songs my kids and I listened to probably a thousand times when they were growing up is the Danity Keene song,

We in the car, we drive slow, and that was a Diddy offering, I'll never get out of my head. You know a show stopper? You know a show stopper? Danny Keane? Yeah, Aubrey Day, I'm a big fan of hers. Oh my gosh.

She might've had some work done, I don't know if you know this. Dude, she's the only one who stood up to P. Diddy when you watch all that stuff. She's on record being like, you're a bitch, back the fuck off. She didn't let him steamroll him. But did you find anything like salacious about him in your research?

No, it wasn't. No, the only thing was like, I looked into him mainly like in regards to Quad Studios because those are his guys there. But there was no, I mean, the one thing I find, it's not salacious. But the thing that's very interesting is like, when there's a point at the Source Awards,

Tupac is in prison, Sh there's a point at the source awards to pocket is in prison Sure, night is at the source of oh, yeah, and he calls out diddy and he's like And he was really he was really saying it so Tupac would hear him up at Clinton correctional facilities and he goes If you don't want a motherfucking Whatever record where they were like labor owner He's gonna be dancing in your videos come come to the row, come to death row. And that was a direct shot of Diddy. Now the interesting thing is, Shug Knight, a year later,

is on the cover of the New York Times Magazine with Tupac and Snoop Dogg, and a lot of people are like, you became exactly what you said, the exact thing you were mocking Diddy for, being this guy who had to be front and center, you became. And Shig Knight did become that. He was all of a sudden the guy wearing the red suits everywhere

and threatening people. And he became the exact thing he was mocking. There's some jealousy in there a little bit. You know what's cool? So that's source of words, that's the same one where Snoop and Dre come up, they're like, you don't think we know where the fuck we at? Yeah.

Like, oh, fuck the West Coast. And it's like, it's the theater of violence like you're talking about, but it feels real. It feels like it could actually go on. The thing is like, I don't want to get shot for this, but like, I feel like they were like, like Suge Knight was not a gangster either. Suge Knight was a pretend gangster.

But tough though, like D. Chocolate. Sure, and Turei has his ass kicked at a club on YouTube. You can see it on YouTube. Really? Yeah. No, no one can beat up Suge Knight, dude. He wasn't like a real blood or anything? No, all right, so again, I interviewed a lot. He's from Compton.

He grew up in a middle-class house in Compton. He played football at UNLV. He was a placement player on the 1987 Los Angeles Rams. Played three games with the LA Rams. This is like cliche, but true. Like loving parents, siblings, played high school football, played in the high school band.

Like he was that guy, goes to UNLV as a good player, blah, blah, blah. But he never ran with the Bloods. Like he identified later and hired a lot of Bloods to do security for him. And those are his guys and he became a threatening figure. But like was he an actual gang member? No, no more so than two. But did Jimmy Iovine seem like a real gang member because it's like he's the closest he's seen to

that point? I don't think Jimmy Iovine cared if he was a gang member. Oh yeah they're Shug, that's funny. Oh wow. You know Shug's name? His name is Marion. It's Marion Shug Knight. His nickname was Shug given by his dad because he said he looked like the sugar bear character on the honeycombs, the Kellogg's or whatever his honeycomb bear. So he's named after a zero character. I think like those guys at Interscope basically were like, so Death Row was under the umbrella of Interscope. I think they were basically like, do we want to do like the chronic blew up? Like the chronic was the first time the ship was going to be enormous.

You gave us a chronic, do we gonna do, but just keep us out of your dirt. But so like to the theater thing, like, cause you read about baseball players too, and like Albert Bell, everyone's terrified of him. Yeah, he was scary. But is he actually, it's baseball, is he actually gonna fight you or is it kind of like?

He was scary. Albert Bell was terrifying, truly terrifying. Like, yeah, he might. He was like a very like. He had something missing. He definitely had something missing. I don't know if he needed medication or whatever, but he was a scary, scary baseball player.

I said that story where a guy, he liked to have the clubhouse at like 65 degrees. Or like 56, something freezing. And a guy changed it one day and Albert Bell came over the baseball bat and broke the thermostat, really? He was like, he was a guy you'd be like, I think I will not.

I think if my editor assigns me an Albert Bell story, I think I'll pretend Albert Bell said no to me. So Albert Bell versus Suge Knight, you're taking Albert Bell? Oh yeah, yes. Albert Bell would just, yes. A lot of people have been wondering. What about, who's the guy from the Haley, Charles Haley?

Oh yeah, we gotta talk about Charles Haley. The guy who will pull his dong out. I have regrets on that one a little bit. Really? Yeah, a little bit. So Charles Haley played on the Haley, Charles Haley. Oh yeah, we gotta talk about Charles Haley. The guy who will pull his dong out. I have regrets on that one a little bit. Really? Yeah, a little bit. So Charles Haley played on the Cowboys, Boys Will Be Boys, kind of a star of the book. Yeah, he's a, yeah.

Well, I was reporting the book and a guy said to me, you know about Haley, right? And when someone says that in your work in a book, you usually say, yeah, but what do you know? You know, like, yeah, of course. Well, you know what he used to do in meetings, right? And I'd be like, I don't know if I do what? And he's like, well, he used to jerk off in meetings.

And I'd be like, wait, what? It's like at work, dude. This is work. There's an account where he'd have meetings, he'd have a towel overs, and he'd literally be jerking off in meetings. I just did the jerk off motion. And he would be jerking off in team meetings.

And it was crazy, Charles Haley was crazy, but this is where I feel bad. Like it turns out later he was diagnosed as bipolar, he got medication, blah, blah. And sometimes I do ask myself, like every now and then there are people who I look back and I think I was too hard on that or I didn't analyze the situation properly.

And this is a guy who actually was having mental health problems. And I was like, ha ha, ho ho, you know. You know what, I feel that when I read your books a little bit, I'm like, you know, ho ho, you know? You know what, I feel that when I read your books a little bit, I'm like, you know, you're putting everything in there. You're not pulling punches, but it also makes me trust

what I'm reading that it's really what happened. Yeah, but I feel like every now and then you do something, there have certainly been cases in my life. Like I did a story years ago for Sports Illustrated about David Wells was a pitcher for the Toronto Volusions. And I did this whole lead to the story about how fat he is, right? Yeah. It was literally like, David Wells was a pitcher for the Toronto Volusians. And I did this whole lead to the story about how fat he is, right? It was literally like David Wells is fat,

not fat with a P-H, fat, fat. His beard is fat, right? And what I was trying, there he is. And what I was trying to do, like I had good intentions. I swear to God I did. My intention was, I was trying to show, he's a great athlete.

He's a great athlete and he does it despite not really caring about his physique. That was my goal. I remember my wife reading that lead and being like, what were you thinking? Like, what are you doing? This is mean. And David Wells was furious.

And I've always said, I hate David Wells, he's just a dick, but like he was rightly furious. Rightly furious. If you're gonna pick an athlete out of a police line. That's the cover right there, the diet, it was diet was a cover that story I wrote is are you also doing it cuz we cuz we Mythologize these men and we admire them so much and then you know Like the kind of darker truths behind a lot of them and are you trying to bring balance to that?

I'm trying to tell a true story, right? But like I'm not trying to ruin people's lives Yeah, and I'm not trying to like like's lives. And I'm not trying to like, like that was, that David Wellesley at Honest God, it was me as a young writer, like as you get older, you definitely become more sensitive to people's feelings. And you realize like, this guy has kids at home, this guy has a wife at home, this, whatever. And like, when you're young and you're just trying

to scratch and claw and make your way up, you're a lot meaner. You are, you're just a lot meaner. You're not as sensitive. You know, like, when I get a bad book review, just as an example, like that shit cuts you up, like it actually cuts you up. And like I don't think I used to think about

how that story would cut up David Wells. I just did it and didn't care. So you get nicer. So like a little bit of a baby rattlesnake, not that you're trying to put venom out there, but you just don't know quite the potency of what you're. But you also know, and I think this you've seen with social media through the years,

you know what gets the attention is the negative. And like if I had just written, you know, David Wells is having the best season of his career with a 20 and three record and blah, blah, blah, blah. Like people would be like, why do I care? But David Wells is fat. I'm like, as you get older, what truly happens is like, you realize like currency isn't clicks,

currency isn't likes, currency is doing quality work. But when you're young, currency feels more like clicks and likes and people say, holy shit, did you read that story by Jeff Perlman? And then later you just look back and you feel like an asshole. Has being a sports writer, has it changed your fandom over time?

When you were a kid, you probably idolized these guys. When you watched sports, how has it affected that? First of all, I don't watch them nearly as much as I used to. I just don't, not for any, I love sports, but I just like, there are other things. I've seen it, and there are other things to do. And also, I don't know.

Like I used to, when I was a kid growing up in New York, like I lived and died with the Jets, with the Mets, with the New Jersey Nets, like I lived and died with those teams. And I have not had that in a long time. I just really like telling good stories. You know, and I had a moment when I was a writer at Sports Illustrated,

there was a period in time when I was, as an older, as a teenager, where I really got into the Seattle Mariners. Because my neighbor growing up the street, this pitcher named Dave Fleming, pitched for the Mariners, my favorite player as a kid was Ken really got into the Seattle Mariners because my neighbor growing up the street this pitcher named Dave Fleming pitch for the Mariners My favorite player as a kid was getting Griffey senior So Ken Griffey jr. Is a star with the Mariners. It was all about the Mariners It was coming baseball sports illustrated and my old college roommates like man. Your team is playing well, and I was like

Like I I didn't I didn't equate the Mariners as my team anymore. So I wasn't even sure what he was talking about He's like the Mariners. I was like, oh, I don't know. I don't equate the Mariners as my team anymore, so I wasn't even sure what he was talking about. He's like, the Mariners. I was like, oh, I don't know, I don't even root anymore. So that was a moment where I was like, holy shit, I actually don't root for teams anymore. I just cover it. Yeah. King Griffey Jr., is he a sick dude?

He seems like the coolest. I love King Griffey Jr. I'll tell you, I quote him a million times a year. There was, he was with the Mariners, and they used to get all this free shit. If you're famous, you get free shit. It's the greatest. It's the greatest tragedy.

Miscarriage of justice in life. Holding this guy out on the street, can't get anything. Ken Griffey Jr. is getting anything he wants, right? Mariners Clubhouse, guy, a sunglass company rep is walking around with free sunglasses for the players. Literally an enormous box, sunglasses. I'm interviewing Griffey with a bunch of people. He pauses the interview, reaches in. I I've used this quarter million times and he goes if

it's free it's for me and I'll take three and grabs that I love that guy he was a best him and Jay Buhner had a really beautiful very close very close but universe but they were fun that was a fun that was a fun group of guys when he went to Cincinnati something in baseball took a little snap I felt like he was meant to be a Mariner very good what's the video of him and his dad oh and that was a fun group of guys. When he went to Cincinnati, something in baseball took a little snap, I felt like. He was meant to be a Mariner. He was very good. What's the video of him and his dad?

Oh dude, it's hilarious. Yeah, senior's about to catch the ball and right. And he runs in front of him. Yeah, and he snatches it, and you see senior get mad, like a dad wouldn't be like, don't do that. But I mean, he had such a natural charisma to like just the way he moved and stuff. You know what was interesting about Junior

is he was kind of a nerd. He wasn't cool at all, at all. He was like, he really was a, I just wanna get home to my wife and kids kind of guy. He wasn't down with pop culture. They made him seem cool, backwards baseball cap, video games, all that stuff. He was kind of a nerdy guy.

That's awesome. That's even more likeable. I agree, makes him more likeable. Yeah. Guys, I'm interrupting this podcast once again to let you know about the Cash App. The Cash App is the best cash transferring app in the game. If you wanna send people money,

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What do you think about the future sports in terms of like? Ownership, I know like Saudi Arabia with their sovereign fund has been trying to move into like the core four kind of sports And they've obviously created live golf and now they're talking about creating like an ancillary NBA league. Maybe do you think? Do you think the leagues we have now will still be the de facto leagues in 10 or 15 years? I think 10 years, yes, but I think 20 years, probably no. Think you're gonna have a lot of splinter. You know what surprised me is I covered the first, I think, draft of the big three,

and I was like, well, this is stupid. This is never gonna do anything. This is dumb. Ice Cube is starting a basketball league, and retired players, who wants to watch Nick Young play? But things kind of blown up, right? WNBA all of a sudden has blown up. People's interests are widening.

And I think part of the reason is because these cable companies have limited access to teams. So it used to be Dodger Game or Yankee Game when I was growing up, Channel 11, there it is, Yankee Game. But now you have to subscribe to X, you have to follow to x you have to Follow the streaming service so fans have less access to the teams They would regularly watch regular games on I think that's given a lot of off brands and offshoots opportunities to grow a little bit

The other thing I find a little bummer I mean, it's alright but like you know I'm out to you for some reason just the injection of like fan duel into everything and then the kind of like Foreign entities taking over the teams. I know it was never like, you know egalitarian or fair Bugs me out too for some reason. Just the injection of like fan duel into everything and then the kind of like foreign entities taking over the teams. I know it was never like, you know, egalitarian or fair but it felt at least like, I don't know. I'll tell you the thing that kills me.

Wholesome in a way. And I don't know if you guys, do you guys have a gambling sponsor? No. Gambling to me is killed. It's absolutely pulverizing sports. And the moment ESPN started having their own ESPN bet, I was like, this is just fucked up.

This is really fucked up. Like, first of all, no indictment if you like, gambling is factually addictive. And number two- The worst addiction I would say. I like to rank stuff as we've talked about. It's very, very bad. And I have tons of, you know,

I have two kids in college, right? But tons of my friends have talked about either their kids or their friends in school betting online. And they're like, oh no, it can't happen. We have security. No, you don't, like give me a break. And like the worst thing is,

just like back in the day with tobacco, you don't actually mind the kids are doing it. Like you're full of shit, you're happy to be making the money and you know it because you're a bunch of greedy fucks. And what really pisses me off, and I'll go dark me, like guys like Bill Simmons Simmons who I respected, like it's all gambling now.

Like it's all gambling, nonstop gambling. And this shit is like, why can't you just watch a fucking game and enjoy the game? Why do you have to have 20 bucks on or 100 bucks on Pat Mahomes throwing? Like I don't know, you may disagree, I just don't get it. No, you know what, he makes fun of me for loving Bill Simmons so much. I have a lot of respect for Bill Simmons, I just don't get it. No, you know what, he makes fun of me for loving Bill Simmons so much.

I have a lot of respect for Bill Simmons, I just wanna say. And the one thing he's been consistent about loving gambling throughout his career, it's not like he did an about face about it. But I saw you talking about it, and it registered for the first time, because I don't even listen to the ads most of the time,

so I was kind of oblivious to it. But it does feel weird that, I don't know, it feels like we could somewhat delude ourselves in the past that the money that was supporting these enterprises was, if not ethical, at least somewhat in line with our values. And it feels now we're at an inflection point where we're gonna have to adjust that a little bit, just because all the American sports leagues

are infused with gambling. And then, you know, these Saudi kind of investors seem like they're at some point gonna make the breach and take over. So I think I'll still love sports, but it'll be a different kind of emotion attached to it. The thing is, despite what I just said, I do get it because advertising dried up.

Like back when I was writing at Sports Illustrated, just an example to sound old, it was like a thick magazine, and you'd have car advertisements, and you'd have refrigerator advertisements, all this stuff,, that all vanished. Like all that, because print died, and online advertising just never resonated.

Like it didn't work. Remember, it used to be the click advertising. Like you'd go on top and there'd be a banner ad or something, it didn't generate money. So like, who's left to advertise? Who's left to fund your product? Gambling sites. Like gambling, it makes sense. You go to The Ringer to read Bill Simmons' site, or you left to fund your product, gambling sites. Like gambling, it makes sense.

You go to The Ringer to read Bill Simmons' site, or you listen to a podcast. These are direct marketing to sports fans. So it does make sense, and I do understand, you're Bill Simmons, you wanna pay your staff, you wanna survive, well this is where the money is. I just think it's gross. Yeah.

What do you, you know, you started writing in the 90s? Yeah. So 90s. I will not be judged. No, no, no. I'm just curious, because you've gone through kind of the tech boom. Yeah.

And you've gone through the death of print and stuff. Yeah. What do you see as the future of writing in journalism? So I, about seven years ago, I was doing these, I had this great gig. I was writing for Bleacher Report. And Bleacher Report for awhile had this thing called BR Mag. And BR Mag was as close as you could find

to the old Sports Illustrated. They'd pay us good money, awesome travel expenses, and you'd write these 8,000 word stories. And it was awesome, it was the best. And at some point along the way, Bleacher Report realized we can get to, and no disrespect to Taylor Rooks, she's totally good, but like we can get Taylor Rooks to do an hour video

and it would generate just as many views, probably more views than the 8,000 word story and it won't cost us anything except Taylor Rooks' salary. And that's where we are, right? Long stories have vanished, there's still a couple of places, but they've vanished. Good writing in a lot of ways has been replaced by quick. How can you do it quick?

How fast can we get this up? Like Stephen A. Smith, just the most like bombastic take possible. Bombastic takes, hot takes, Skip Ales, Stephen A. Smith, you know, it's like become this thing. And like, I used to love, I know I'm old, but like I used to love the nuanced, lengthy, you know, it used to be like it really was.

It used to be like, you're gonna go and spend a day with John Rocker, just an example, and you're gonna spend 10 hours with John Rocker, you're gonna ride around with him, you're gonna meet his family, you're gonna meet his parents. If LeBron James had been playing 20 years earlier, I mean, he was playing 20 years earlier, but you know, it would be like,

you're gonna spend the day with LeBron, and here's his parents, and you're gonna go back to Akron, and you're gonna visit the school, and blah, blah, blah, and you would get these great, nuanced details. And the other thing you see now that's unfortunate, in a way, is you see all these documentaries about athletes, right? But they're always now in partnership with the athlete.

So you're not learning the things. Like, the Tupac estate had a Tupac book come out two years ago, and it was the authorized biography of Tupac. And it was actually a good book Right, but they're not telling you the things they don't want you to know, you know, it's protective So all these the Jordan documentary on Netflix was in Netflix. Yeah, it was It was great

But it did go through the prism of Michael Jordan and that changes things because Michael Jordan was a fucking pain in the ass I know who covered him knows it you only saw little tiny glimpses of that. I mean, Scottie was upset by that. He felt like, he was like, oh, it's the same old Jordan story again. Yeah, rightly. Yeah, you know, I'm kind of confident, I think things swing.

I read this Teddy Roosevelt book about how long-form journalism was really popular during his era and it helped him push forward some progressive policy. And then it just fell out of favor. People were like, hey, we want quick hits again. We're just bored with this. Do you feel like it could swing back though, right?

Or do you think our attention is just being eroded by contemporary technology? I mean, speaking even for myself, like my attendance span isn't what it was five years ago and sitting down to write is harder than it used to be without checking the phone, you know, that impulse to check the phone, check TikTok. But writing's hard.

Like it's age related too. Like writers as they age talk about how hard it is to sit down and like. What are you trying to say? No, I'm just saying like maybe that's natural. What do I hear here? Yeah, yeah. I think you become a better writer as you get older

because you have a greater command of what you're doing. You throw out the shit you don't need. Yeah, you just, you know what you're doing. Like anything, you get better. And also the beauty of it, unlike an athlete, like you don't lose your skills at 35. Like you can still write. But I do think we've all been kind of impacted

by social media and the attention span and the quick hit. And I don't know, like, have you tried reading a 5,000 word story and not checking your phone, not getting off it? No, I gotta check my phone. It's hard. I'm always searching for apps. Like there's an app I'm always searching for apps.

There's an app I like, Endo, right now, that has a sound that blocks out the mental chatter so you can focus. Oh, really? Is it good? I've been enjoying it, but I'm always kinda like, I'm like, apps are restricting from looking at my phone. Yeah, it's just like, at the end of the day,

you'll be like, man, I wasted like two hours just scrolling. And I love TikTok. TikTok has changed my career. But like, you look up and you're like, why I just scrolled for 15 minutes? Like I just saw a monkey eating a pizza. Like, did I really need that in my life? You know, like, yeah.

Yeah, maybe just in balance. I do like those monkeys eating pizza. They do. You know, it is kind of fun. Who do you think's the best sports? Is fun. Who do you think's the best sports, is it, who do you think's the best sports writer of all time? Me? I'm just kidding.

You're in the dick. You're right there. No, I'm not in the top thousand. Best sports writer of all time? I mean, there are some, like Frank DeFord is a legend from Sports Illustrated, and Frank DeFord's one of the great of all time. Dan Jenkins was an SI.

These old SI writers were just different level. And so you'll take like the columnist over the like who's the guy people's I know he's not exclusively a sportsman like David Halberstam. Oh he's great great. But he didn't write a lot of features right? He was more. Yeah he did in his day. He mainly like he wrote some great books. Yeah. He and I both started the National Tennessean there's one we both were. Oh you first news. I didn't know him. He was way before me. Yeah. He's, he's deceased. And then Grantlin rice, they named him,

but he was a guy who would like make the athletes like, so he was a way before me too. He was like the twenties and thirties. He was way before me. Jim Murray. I see him. Yeah. But Jim Murray was an LA times columnist. He was awesome.

He had a line. I should, so funny. He's quoted in my Tupac book, because he wrote, when Bruce Seldon fought Mike Tyson, this was a fight that Tupac was at, it ended in the first round, it was a quick bullshit fight, and Jim Murray's line in the LA Times was,

the Titanic put up a better fight against the iceberg. I thought that was really good. Yeah. Do you follow mixed martial arts at all? Almost none. Okay, so John Jones just retired. I saw that, really good. That's great. Do you follow mixed martial arts at all? Almost none. John Jones just retired. People think he's... You think so? I never heard of him before.

There was a young up and coming heavyweight and he kind of ducked the fight with him and retired instead. So everyone's messaging him online calling him a duck right now. Are they really? I am. Okay, but here's the thing. I mean, I'm not I get in there. Like he would obviously kick your ass if you were in face to face. I think about it every time I write a comment. And I'm like, I think I'd take the beating just because I feel like I got to get this off my chest. I mean, I guess if you're upset, I mean, I

like tweet about like politics all the time. And it doesn't you know, no one's listening to me. So you know, no, he would for sure beat me up. it doesn't you know no one's listening to me so you know. No he would for sure beat me up I just want you know there's this young up-and-coming champ and he kind of held the belt for a year without fighting and kind of put the whole division in limbo so people were just a little and then he retired without fighting him so we all feel a little like blueballed. I get it. And then the day he retired and he's been in trouble with the law a story came out that A chick got into a car accident with no pants She was on drugs and she said john was driving and he ran away from the car accident

Which would be the second time he's done that was this guy a good book Dude, he'd be okay him versus daniel cornie that that rivalry because cornie is like a good family man and jones is like the devil kind of not devil but like Uh mischievous just super talented guy and they were perfect foils for each other. And he brought the demon out of Daniel Cormier, where Cormier's like this family man, but he got real ugly when he was going up against Jones to kind of match that.

And he couldn't stand how popular Jones was when he knew he was kind of a dark dude underneath it. And to me, it's one of the great sports rivalries of all time. I have a question for you. This is an MMA question. Yeah. Why is Trump so embraced in MMA circles?

Like what is it about MMA in that world? I'm not even, I don't mean this as a political question. No, dude, I'm pretty political myself. Like I care a lot about politics, too much so. And so- Like they love him, right? So Dana White says it's because when sport, when MMA wasn't sanctioned in any sport, in any states, Trump supported him

and let him put on fights in Atlantic city. So they forged like a bond like out of the mud where Dana White was like, this guy had my back. I have to have my friends back. And then most of the fighters are like right leaning just by nature. Like, you know, they're kind of like traditional masculinity and stuff like that.

And then it just kind of accelerated. Like the Nelk boys were part of it. And then it just became this kind of manosphere thing that momentum started building. And I think because the other sports leagues were more traditional media legacy stuff, they were a little more resistant to Trump. And he's like, well, I want to do like my

Super Bowl camera op. And then they were like, well, I'll do it to UFC events. It makes sense. I mean, I can't fault him for the idea. I just think like, when I see him walk in, it's like, do you really have nothing better to do with you? So I I hate the liberal leadership here. I'm like very I don't like Karen Bass I don't like me some but I really don't like Trump and when I see him there with his whole administration

Because one time he came like Tulsi Gabber RFK Marco Rubio was there and did like a really weak like Shaka It was very and I was like, why are you guys? I'm like Marco Rubio I'm like three you're like NSA secretary, you have like nine jobs, dude. What are you doing? Yeah, I'm like, it's not even a big card. And then, but all the fighters after they win, no matter where they're from, every fighter goes up and like kind of bends the knee to Trump afterwards.

And that's, that part, I'm just waiting for the fighter. I think it'll make for great theater. If there's a fighter who's like, nah, fuck Trump. And then he goes up against the most Trumpy fighter and then we get to see, that would be really cool. That'd be like Drago Rocky in Rocky IV. Exactly, but right now it's all just every, like John Jones afterwards goes up, gives his belt to Trump.

They all kind of kiss his ass a lot. You know what I like? I like that you just said, you don't like Karen Bass, you don't like Gavin Newsom, you don't like Trump. Like, I feel like there are a lot of people like that. And we've lost in this country, the conversation where it's like, like everyone is like there are a lot of people like that and we've lost in this country the conversation Where it's like like everyone is like all one side or all the other side and like it's exhausting It was new some didn't have Trump. He wouldn't have a job. I don't think like he's the the only thing Trump's Or new some is good at for me is standing up to Trump on he's very good at that

Oh, dude girls go crazy. Yeah new some like back off Trump and women are like, oh It's used news some uses a the glossiest filter of all time Oh dude, girls go crazy. Newsome would like back off Trump and women are like, oh my god. You know what he uses? Newsome uses the glossiest filter of all time on his TikTok, it's insane. Come and get me big guy. Tough guy, call him a tough guy. Tough guy, yeah. That was a good moment for Gavin Newsome.

It was perfect. I was wondering where the hell he was the whole day. I've been going to the protest, it's all 19 year olds leading it, so the messaging gets kind of convoluted. I'm older, so I'm always like, hey, like maybe we should chill, be a little more targeted. And I was just like, where the hell is Gavin Newsome?

And then he finally stood up and was like, hey, Trump, do you want some bad boy? I'm right here. I got with you, and he winked at all the women. The women were like, oh, Gavin. It drives me crazy. I'm like, bro, if Trump wasn't making mistakes, Newsome wouldn't, he'd be hopefully long gone.

This is kind of tangential to that, but Aaron Rodgers went to the Steelers. I know you wrote about Aaron Rodgers. You have some opinions on him. What's your overall kind of just alt on Aaron Rodgers? He's such a douchebag. He's just a douchebag. No, he really is a douchebag.

All right, true story. I wrote the spreadfire biography. This isn't why he's a douchebag, but I went up to him, so I wanted to get Aaron Rodgers to the book and I knew he was playing in a golf tournament in Northern California. So I drove to the tournament and I went up to him.

He was on the like putting team. What do you call it? I hate golf. Practice green or whatever. Practice green. And I go up to him and I'm like, hey Aaron. I'm like, hey, my name is Jeff Berman. He actually, he goes, I know who you are.

And I was like, oh, that's cool. And I go, I'm working on this Brett Favre book. It's a biography and I really would love to talk to you for it. He goes, sure, man, give my agent a call. We'll set it up. He dusted me after that, never talked to me, blew me off, blah, blah.

There's a part in the book where, and I got this from teammates, where Aaron Rodgers is a rookie with the Packers in training camp. It's his first time meeting Brett Favre. Brett Favre sits down in the lunchroom or something, and Rogers looks at him and says, Hey, Grandpa. And it really pissed Favre off.

And Rogers goes out in the press and just denies this story and bashes me and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, the story is true. You know, this is true. And like, he's just he just, he's like the guy who has to be the smartest person in the room. Which is the most annoying species of human being. He's the guy who has to know every subject and he knows more than you and he knows he knows more than you.

It's fucking annoying. That's why even though I can't stand Favre, if you told me I had to go on a picnic, I'm going with Favre, not Rogers. And what do you think about this marriage thing that's happening right now? Did you see that Aaron Rogers said he got married? Oh, I didn't know that.

Really? Have you seen that story? I'm proud of the guy. Yeah. But like, they're like, his family's like, we don't know anything about this. Well, he's estranged from his parents. He hasn't talked to his parents.

He's estranged. Ian O'Connor wrote a great Aaron Rogers biography that came out last year. It was really, really good. Rogers is a weird guy. He's estranged from his family. You know, he's always on Rodgers biography that came out last year is really good Rogers a weird guy He's a strange from his family. He You know, he's always on Rogan. That's no beef. But like he said some really weird things on Rogan yeah, this whole thing with vaccines and blah blah, he's just like

He just always has to be in the Packers when he was a rookie especially like hated that guy and they did something to him They pranked him in a way that like He was a rookie, he's by his locker, it's about practice is about to start and he can't find his helmet. He's like, where's my helmet? Where's my helmet? Where's my helmet?

Can't find his helmet, he's freaking out, he's a rookie. Favre stole his helmet and they had a, every now and then in clubhouses and locker rooms, they have tables where they put out merchandise that they're all signing for charity. So it'd be like a ton of helmets. Farf stole his helmet, put it on the table. So all the teammates signed it.

So Rogers, finally someone tells him, there's your helmet. And he has to jog out to practice wearing his helmet signed by all his teammates. And he was mortified. Dude, he had a quote on Rogan that I was watching the other day, which had it drove me nuts, where he's like, how come we're not studying the Amish?

Like they have, they don't get autism as much as we get. I'm like, you mean this secluded group that doesn't want to interact with the general public? We're just going to do FDA studies with them where we take their, like they're not going to agree to that, dude. But he'll just say, he'll say like things like that when I'm like, it's so clear why that's not,

but he thinks he's like breaking the mold. He does this thing. I mean, Trump does a lot too, if we're being honest. He'll be like, I don't get it. Like you have fires in LA, but here's this lake with a lot of water. So we're just gonna take the water in the lake and bring it to LA, and then you won't have a fire problem.

It's like, yeah, it's not that simple. And Rogers is always the same way. He is that way. Well, the Amish never get sick. So let's take what the Amish do, and then we won't get sick. And it's like, fuck her, they don't get sick because they're all live in the secluded little two-mile radius. Yeah. Yeah anyway Yeah, he does drive me crazy with all that stuff great quarterback though And I just want to say as a jet fan is a guarantee that Aaron Rodgers will throw 57 touchdowns at zero interceptions this year

Football there's no doubt about that This is a gang into my expertise surfing a little bit. Do you cover surfing? I do not I'm a big steeler so Super Bowl. I guarantee. He's good at football, there's no doubt about that. This is, getting into my expertise surfing a little bit, do you cover surfing at all? I do not. There's an argument out there, I forgot where I read it, but there's an argument that Kelly Slater is the most dominant athlete of all time.

Because he just commanded the sport for 20 years. How do you feel about that? I 100% agree. To me, Slater, I have Kelly Slater number one on my all time surfing list because he's the only surfer I've ever heard of. So I got him number one. I don't know, I mean, it is interesting.

Like there are these athletes who we don't know about. I mean, Kelly Slater obviously we know about, but like is Tony Hawk the greatest blah, blah, blah of all time? Is so-and-so the greatest volleyball player of all time all time and we don't we only talk about the big four sports Yeah, I was like like who's the greatest athlete of my lifetime. It's probably Carl Lewis the runner and sprinter, right? Oh, yeah, I had him on my top. Oh, yeah, you did Yeah, I had him on top for nobody besides you and me apparently would have Carl Lewis

I mean cuz he had the long jump record. He won the 100. He was a just a of Carl Lewis, you know. I mean, because he had the long jump record. He won the 100. He was just a... He was awesome. And so did you see that he popped positive for something too? Cause Ben Johnson was his famous rival, right? And then I think Carl Lewis ended up testing

positive for something. You ever see his, he sang the national anthem of the New Jersey national anthem. It's so funny. It's really good. Is it hilarious? Is it bad? It's horrendous. It's the worst thing ever.

He did that Nets game and midway through It's always a bad sign when you stop and go hold on it's gonna come now. It's gonna come. Oh, no No, yeah, Carl Lewis. Who do you okay? It's so hard to find a role model if we had to pick a an athlete to look up to in Your experience knowing these guys on a deeper level. Who would you say is the guy? or go um I would say I knowing these guys on a deeper level, who would you say is the guy or girl? Um, I would say, I would say definitely this is dating me a little bit, Martina Navratilova and Chris Everett. Um, a lot's been written, like those two guys, those two women were like arch arch rivals and they both become like really tight and they both

are going through cancer treatment right now and they're basically there for one each other nonstop and these are two people who wanted to kill each other as opponents and actually hated each other and became like these tight, tight friends. A friend of mine, John Wertheim just sort of great story in them for, I think for SI and they have this beautiful kinship. And I do think like what I really love about sports, like I, I'll tell you my favorite thing in sports, this is God's honest truth. And I felt it last night watching the championship game,

the NBA game. I love the handshakes at the end. I wish they showed all of the handshakes. I love this sense of kinship and brotherhood, sisterhood, companionship. We fought our asses off and now nothing but respect. I love the moment when TJ McConnell was walking off the court and he was sobbing.

And what's his name? Pace was dark, we got hurt. Halliburton. Halliburton is there hugging him. I love that stuff. I feel like, like one thing we've gotten away from in sports, this is gonna sound stupid, but I really mean it. I don't like how a guy on the opposing team falls.

And if you're on the opposing team, you don't help them up. You see that in football now. It used to be you'd always help the guy out. I hate that shit. I feel like sports can be such a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful thing if we let it. And the Navratilova-Everett friendship is awesome.

Yeah. It's true, Rush, the F1 movie, where your enemy is actually your friend because they make you more of yourself. Totally, they make you better. 100%. That's the good part of that bird magic, they make you better. 100%. And like. That's the good part of that bird magic doc. Like they meet each other and they come around.

I love the moment when the retiring bird's number and magic comes to the Boston Garden and he comes out in his Laker uniform and he gets a standing ovation, right? In Boston Garden. But Bird starts messing with him and he opens his Laker jacket and he's wearing a Boston Celtic shirt

and to places goes crazy. That's great. I love that, I love right there. I love their kinship. I think their kinship is as beautiful. Yeah. And so you wrote Winning Time, which got turned into an HBO.

I wrote Showtime, which became, Showtime was the name of the book. Oh, they couldn't call it Showtime though because of Showtime. They got, yeah. Yeah. But you wrote what became. I wrote the book that became the TV show.

Which was a great show It must have been so cool to get like it was amazing Adam McKay and all these heavy hitters doing your greatest Some of the greatest moments of my life. Okay one issue I had with it. You can't have any issues And I didn't read the book and I know the guy I'm, I read three. I know the guy had a troubled mental, but I felt like the show was so hard on Jerry West. Yeah, that's fair. You know what's funny? When the show was going on, I was pretty,

I was involved, I definitely was involved, more than your average writer, I was involved. And I felt like a lot of the people who just did TV and just did movies for their careers were really confused and upset by like Jerry West stating that he wasn't happy with the show and his depiction. And this is where I said on multiple occasions, you're Jerry West, let's just say you're Jerry West.

You're sitting at home, there's this TV show on, there's a character named Jerry West, played by an actor meant to look like you in a show about the Lakers, and he's saying things that you didn't say, right? Obviously it's a show, it's an interpretation, it's not a real. It's gotta be dramatized.

It's dramatized, right. Like, why would you not get upset? Like if you're Jerry West, why would you not get upset? Of course you're gonna get upset. And like, I actually, so I thought that, Jerry West wrote an autobiography called West by West. It's one of the best sports books I've ever read. It's great.

And a lot of the book is about his own self-torture. So I thought the show actually really went at that pretty well. The characterization that bothered me more, and he's a great actor and he did a great job, but Jason Segel played Paul Westhead. And that kind of made Paul Westhead to be a bit of a dunderhead and kind of an adult.

And he wasn't, he was a really smart guy. And that actually bothered me more than the West depiction. But I did like the show, and it like put my kids through college. I really did, and I got to have a cameo in it. It's awesome. Yeah, I had a nightmares cameo experience. Yeah, they make like Paul Westhead,

this like poetic guy and he's like- And he was poetic. He was poetic, but they overdid it. But you know, it's awesome. Yeah, I had a nightmares cameo experience. Yeah, they make like Paul West had this like poetic guy and he's like, he was poetic. He was poetic, but they overdid it. But you know, it's TV. That's a cool poster right there actually. We saw me and Strider went and saw Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy at the Pico Landmark Theater. Boring ass movie.

I felt I used to take him to boring movies that fall asleep right away. Strider would get mad at me. No, I just fall asleep during the movie. He says the only movie I didn't fall asleep during was a Magic Mike. But it was the second time he saw it. One or two, No, I just fall asleep during. He says the only movie I didn't fall asleep during was Magic Mike. But.

It was the second time he fell asleep. One or two, yeah, right. My daughter loves that movie. The second one's amazing. So we're seeing Tigger Teller, Strider looks around the theater. Do you wanna finish it? Oh yeah, I look over, everyone's passed out, dude.

It's like, this is a matinee, and it's just Kareem Abdul-Jabbar sitting there just fricking locked in, dude. Holy cow. Yeah, just like dialed in. You can't miss him. He's like head and shoulders above everyone.abbar sitting there just fricking locked in. Holy cow. Yeah, just dialed in. You can't miss him. He's head and shoulders above everyone. Just sitting there loving the art, dude.

And he's a very artistic guy. He's a writer and he's on, wrote for Veronica Mars. It was amazing, dude. That's funny. That was the best part of the movie. I was like, I saw Kareem. And you're writing on it. Was he a compelling figure?

I have a funny K story. Actually, um, cream did not talk to me for the buck and Kareem obviously all time, great basketball player, um, brilliant person, but very standoffish and kind of awkward, right? And I've been trying to get cream and trying to get cream and he has a woman, I forgot her name who handles all his affairs and she's known to be just annoying as fuck, like just impossible to break through and So I just kept trying to get Kareem to talk couldn't get him couldn't get him

One day I was at the basketball Hall of Fame ceremonies in Springfield, Massachusetts the year magic was getting the year Michael Jordan was getting inducted and I texted the handler just to say hey in case in case Kareem's gonna be there, I'm gonna be here. I didn't hear anything. It's the night of the ceremony, I'm at the event. I get a text from this woman. She's like, hey, are you here?

I'm like, yeah. She's like, I have big news involving Kareem. I was like, oh my God, great. She's like, let's meet in the hallway. And I was like, this is gonna be the moment I get Kareem. She's gonna agree. She talked to Kareem, he's excited. She goes, okay, picture this. And I'm like, she's going to agree. She talked to cream. He's excited. She goes, OK, picture this.

And I'm like, oh, boy. She goes. We have a traveling Kareem Museum sponsored by Sports Illustrated, where we have all of Kareem's memorabilia traveling around on a bus from place to place, and it could be like a traveling museum and it could be connected to Sports Illustrated. So Sports Illustrated could sponsor it and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it would be amazing when that be great it could be connected to Sports Illustrated. So Sports Illustrated could sponsor it and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And it would be amazing. Wouldn't that be great? How about that? And I go, I haven't worked for Sports Illustrated 10 years. And she goes, oh, and she just walked away. And that was the end of my Korean hopes. Did you get magic?

I didn't get magic. I didn't get magic, I didn't get Korean. Whoa. I didn't get that Riley. I didn't get the big I didn't get magic, I didn't get Kareem. Whoa, wow. I didn't get Matt Riley, I didn't get the big three. But I got, that's the thing, that's the thing. That actually is it. Forgot, I was gonna say James Worthy, but not important.

I got million and millions, hundreds of guys who are on that roster at some point, hundreds of coaches, hundreds of ball boys. And the truth of the matter is, and this is not excuses, what I've learned from decades of doing this, Magic and Kareem have told their stories a million times. Wes Matthews and Larry Spriggs have not.

So you find those guys, they're in the same huddles, in the same locker rooms, in the same meetings, except they haven't been asked. And Larry Spriggs, a backup Laker player, I think was working for the UPS at the time. Now, if you're working, he was great, but if you're working for the UPS, and some guy calls you and he's like, hey, I wanna talk to you about the greatest moments in your life if you're working, he was great, but if you're working for the UPS, and some guy calls you, and he's like,

hey, I wanna talk to you about the greatest moments in your life, you're like, yeah. Yeah. And so it's almost like the people's history of America, too, where you're getting the viewpoint on these big legends, but from the ground level a little more. Totally, totally. I freaking love it.

I love it. I love their stories. I love their backstories. I love hearing how they became who they were. Yes. And not just, I love telling Larry Spriggs's story as much as I love telling Magic's story. That's what I like in your books

when you set up a guy like this and you're like, this guy came from this college, was known for, he could have bounced past at 90 feet and then you hear his take on it and you're like, oh damn, you're literally learning more about the team. I love that stuff too. I'll tell you one thing from this book, just an example. The NBA draft used to be 12 rounds.

It was long. And I recall, the NBA draft used to be like 12 rounds, it was like long. And I recall all the different draft picks, right? And there's this one guy who was drafted out of Rutgers, I'd never heard of, I don't remember his name anymore. And I call him up and I'm like, hey, is this so-and-so who's drafted by Lakers? He goes, yeah, he goes, what's going on? And I'm like, I'm working on this book.

It turns out this guy was like a friend of the buses, one of the buses kids and was a student at Rutgers. And they just drafted him as a joke. Now, if I didn't make that call to the 12th round draft pick out of Rutgers, I wouldn't know that. And that's a funny moment in a book. Books are basically collections of nuggets.

That's all it is. Collections of little nuggets that you find along the way and you cobble them together. I can tell you my craziest find someone story. That's all it is, collections of little nuggets that you find along the way and you cobble them together. Yeah. I can tell you my craziest find someone story. Yeah. This is my best one actually in my life. Do you guys remember JR Rider? Of course.

Oh, I'm trying to remember JR Rider, his basketball. He went by Isaiah Rider with JR Rider. He played, he won the slam dunk contest with the Timberwolves. He later played for the Trail Blazers. He was crazy, like crazy, crazy. And played for the Lakers one year. Isaiah JR Rider. And I really want to talk to everybody. So JR Rider actually was known for like threatening reporters. Like you literally said to Tim Brown of the LA Times after he asked him a question in like, he goes, I know where you and your wife live.

So I wanted to find JR Rider. And first, yeah, yeah, before you would find me. So I wanted to find JR Rider and first yeah yeah before you find me. So I have an address for him in Arizona. This is from my book Three in Circus by the Chaco beer. I have an address for him in Arizona but I do not have a phone number and I'm going to be in Arizona for a book thing. So I'm like I'm just going to drive to his house. So I always want to do door knocks. I've done many door knocks. It's always terrifying. Always. It doesn't matter if you like

knocking the door of like a 15 year old kid. It's always kind of scary. I always bring a book with me to show like almost as like a business card. I bring a book. So I pull up to this house. And it's way too early. It's like 930 in the morning. We should knock on someone's door at 930 morning by day. I knock on the door, my hands are sweaty. I'm carrying my USFL book with me. Kid answers. I'm like, Hey, I'm warning my dear. I knock on the door, my hands are sweaty, I'm carrying my USFL book with me. Kid answers. I'm like, hey, I'm looking for a JR Rider.

He goes, hold on one second, he closes the door. Woman comes to the door. I'm like, hey, my name's Jeff Peroma, I'm looking for JR Rider. She's like, why are you looking for JR Rider? I'm a rider, I'm doing this book. Hold on. Closed the door.

I hear a woman, this woman and an adult man yelling at each other. Who the fuck is it? I don't know, it's some writer. What the fuck, are you fucking? Door opens. JR writer. JR writer was probably six, seven or six, eight,

I'm not sure, and big. And this is after his career, so he was bulkier than he used to be. He's like, who are you? I'm like, hey, my name's Jeff Furlman. I'm like, you know, I'm like, my name's Jeff Furlman. I'm writing a book, blah, blah, blah. He goes, nah, man.

Man, nah. He's like, bruh, you just show up, and it's a screen door. He goes, bruh, you just show up in my fucking house. You fucking kidding me? He's just fucking, he opens the door. I'm like, fuck, he's like, nah, man, what the fuck? Like, you just show up in my house. So I get like, fuck. He's like, no, man, what the fuck? Like you just show up, you just show up at my house.

So I get this, show up at my house, bro, you can't do that. What's that book you have? And I go, well, it's a book I wrote about the USFL, this old football league. He goes, is that the Trump? Is that the Trump League? I go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's like, bro, what the fuck, man? You can't just show up. You can just show up at my fucking house. My fucking house, do you have any, what the fuck, man? You can't just show up. You can just show my fucking house. My fucking house. Do you have any, so you wrote that book? And I'm like, yeah. I'm like, yeah. He's like, yeah.

So he's like, bro, you can't show up. What the, what are you writing about? And I'm like, well, I'm doing a book about the Shack Kobe Lakers. And you, you know, you played on the team one year. He's like, yeah, that was a pretty good time. All right, I'll talk to you. I'll talk to you.

I got two hours with JR Ryder. And then I get my ass kicked. I'll eat the burger. That's awesome. Whenever I hear anyone say bruh or nah, I think of JR Ryder. That's the best, nah man. Nah man.

We route it, we use that, we've copied so much vernacular in my house through the years of different stuff. So like, I will say to my kid, my kid will be like, hey, dad, can I have a cookie? Nah, man. Nah, bruh, nah. No.

And you were teaching at Chapman, right? I was, I was. I still do. Still, oh, okay, so. Yeah, I'm a adjunct, Chapman's in Orange, California. And I'll tell you twice, Jeannie Buss drove to my class, owner of the Lakers, about to be kind of former owner of the Lakers Bus drove to my class, owner of the Lakers, about to be kind of former owner of the Lakers,

drove to my class to speak to students, brought tickets for them for Laker games, brought merch. Was as, I don't think she'd love the show and probably isn't that happy with me, but I have nothing but, I mean, she drove to Chapman just to speak to my class, which is really cool. She seems like the ace of the family.

I think so. I love Jeanne Ross. I think she's a good egg. So like with Jared, I read the jailblazers book too, and like hilarious stories about him like showing up. He was 40 minutes early to practice because it was daylight savings. So he left and he ended up being 20 minutes late.

He's amazing. With guys like that where it seems like they have all the talent in the world, but it's a maturity issue. When you come visit them years later Can you feel any regret from them that they didn't figure it out sooner? I think well, you know I feel like in a lot of ways that people who should have the regret i'm being sincere about this a lot of times is us

like We devote all this time as fans to making fun of them mocking them what that was wrong with this guy. Blah blah blah like I'll just use tupac as an example, even though I was an athlete. Like, raised by a single mom who was a crack addict. I saw Dejante Murray on the Pivot podcast the other day, the New Orleans Pelicans Guard. Like, his life was insane. He was surrounded by addiction, by death,

by people going sent to jail, all his best friends. And like, we just think like, by the way, it's such a good listening issue. This guy's amazing. Like I became a fan just listening to him talk. Like we expect, oh, all right, we took this kid, this poor black kid growing up surrounded by hell. He's a basketball player, so we put him in college

and we give him a meal plan and everything's great or whatever he gets NIL money. And then we put him in the NBA and he's just gonna whatever he gets NIL money, and then we put him in the NBA, and he's just gonna be well adjusted. He's just gonna be well adjusted, and we expect that from these guys. And then when someone is a dick or someone snaps or someone doesn't behave properly,

we're like, what's wrong with this guy? Why isn't he so-and-so? And like, Jared Reiter grew up in a hell. Jared Reiter grew up in the inner city, impoverished with a lot of violence and a lot of death and a lot of imprisonment. Like, the idea that we just expect them now that they're in a fancy uniform to be normalized

is insane and I have a lot of regret for my career about placing expectations, white middle class expectations on athletes who can't possibly meet that and shouldn't be expected to meet that because they weren't brought up that way and they weren't brought up in that environment. And I'm not saying my white middle class environment is any better or more valuable than theirs. I'm saying I hold them to a standard and an expectation that is completely preposterous.

Again, in a lot of ways, they're probably a 22 year old professional athlete is probably more mature than your average 22 year old. These guys have gone through so much shit in their lives. He's the best example. I'm telling you, John T. Murray is an amazing example. I saw the Popovich story, which was really touching. He's a, I mean, I couldn't help but love this guy, but like he has a maturity at whatever age he is, 23.

23, I didn't know anything. You know, like I didn't know anything. I hadn't lived, my parents paid for my college education. They gave me a car that I, a used car, but a car I drove to Nashville. I had a job, I was living in an apartment complex, my life was safe. Like I didn't have to deal with any of the shit

this guy had to deal with. Or most of these guys, not most, but a lot of these guys have to deal with. It's insane, you know? The reason Kobe, like Kobe was brought up much more like, in a way, like we were, he had a secure home. Yes, he was brought up in Italy, but he was brought up by parents who supported him.

He always had money, blah, blah, blah. And what happened to Kobe is he was thrown into this world where he felt like he had to play act a little bit. And like he wasn't Iverson, but he tried being Iverson sometimes. And he didn't talk, he spoke in like the King's English, and he spoke two languages, and every now and then he'd be like,

nah bro, you know, blah, blah, blah. And people would be like, you're such a fraud. Like black teammates would be like, you're a fraud. This isn't who you are. So why are you even pretending to be this way? He didn't have that background. He didn't have that upbringing, but there was pressure to kind of conform

to sort of an MBA template. Guys, life's been a little crazy these days, you know, with the world is feeling crazy, stress is high. Tyrese Halliburton popped his Achilles who? Basketball player popped his Achilles Halliburton popped his Achilles Halliburton the other ones also making weapons. Is that true? Yeah. Yeah, I got that right Maybe I should add talk about weapons manufacturers on this ad, but Who are we talking about?

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I mean, they were on a bus in Cleveland. Samaki Walker veteran forward had been around bigger, stronger than Kobe. Probably more respected than Kobe. And they had a couple of days earlier, I guess, done a half court shoot. When you say respected, you mean just in the locker room? Yeah, he was a smock. He'd been around. He was a he was a vet. You know, he was like, you know, Kobe, like Kobe had this air about him

that people didn't really feel, you know, doesn't mean he's a bad guy. And as he got older, he changed. But at that age, he was like, he's always trying to prove himself. He's always trying to prove himself, not just as a basketball player, but as a human being who belonged in the echo chamber that was the NBA. And some hockey walker did belong to that echo chamber. Like he was that guy. So they have a half court shooting contest before a game

or during a practice, I don't remember what it was. Kobe wins, everyone owes him 100 bucks. Samaki Walker didn't pay him the first day and like the second day didn't pay him. And they're on the team bus in Cleveland. And Kobe goes, yo, Maki, where's my 100 bucks? And Samaki Walker's like, I'll get it to you later. And he comes up again, he goes, yo, Maki,

I want my 100 bucks. Now, Kobe Bryant didn't need Samaki Walker's $100 bill, right? He was putting on a show here at this point, or maybe it was for the point of it all, that you owe me 100 bucks. So Samaki's like, Kobe, or I told you, I get it to you later.

And Kobe Bryant smacks him, right? Now, it was ridiculous. Like number one, Samaki Walker could kill Kobe Bryant, like kill Kobe Bryant. And number two, like it was this bullshit. Samaki Walker goes, stop the bus, stop the fucking bus. And he's like, let's go right now, you and me outside the bus.

And Kobe's like, no, no, it's good, it's good. Let's go right now off the bus, he won't get off the bus. Later on, they're at the team hotel, and Samaki Walker, back in the day, this is pre-everyone having a cell phone, I guess, I don't know, Samaki Walker picks up his room phone and Kobe leaves him this message and he's crying, apologizing.

And like, in a way, what Kobe was doing is sometimes what Tupac was doing, which is putting on this front. In a way, what Aaron Rodgers does too, like putting on this front. Like a lot of people, I think one of the things that comes with being a professional athlete

or probably a professional singer or actor or whatever, is there's this expectation of cool. My son actually said to me last night, he's like, nobody's cool. I was like, it's kinda true. It's like, you know what I mean? Like nobody's actually cool. Like Ken Griffey Jr. was so not cool.

In fact, that's what made him cool, right? But this act, this need to be a certain way. Like, you know, you can't, it's not real. It's an interesting three line. Yeah. So I guess my last one, if you had to just rank then the three happiest athletes you ever met. Three happiest. I mean, let me think for a minute.

I love Shaq, dude. I love Shaq. Shaq is a great example. You know what Shaq, all right, this is what I always say about Shaq. This is the thing about Shaq. When Michael Jackson was at his peak or like Madonna, right? If they would go to a mall, just as an example, they would rent out the whole Let's say about Shaq, this is the thing about Shaq. When Michael Jackson was at his peak, or like Madonna, if they would go to a mall, just as an example, they would rent out the whole mall, they would make sure there's a big deal about them coming to the mall,

there'd be fans lying outside the mall, kept behind a barrier, so they could shop in private at the mall. Shaq just goes to the fucking mall. Shaq goes to the mall, and in doing that, people come up to him yeah I'll post her picture sure you know post her picture if he's eating he might tell someone I'm eating get me later like he's owns his fame so well that like people are like

well Michael Jackson had to do that he didn't Madonna has to do that she doesn't you don't have to be that way you could embrace your fans and they actually will give you respect and kind of leave you alone when you want your privacy but they create this thing, this bullshit thing that Shaq was well aware of and has owned and embraced it. Barclays the same way. Like they get it.

They're in on the joke. The guy who, when I was covering baseball, there was a guy named Sean Casey. He was the Cincinnati Reds first baseman. His nickname was the Mayor. He's the only athlete I've ever met who invited the B-Riders to his wedding. Invited the B-Riders to his wedding. He invited the B riders to his wedding.

He was amazing. So like there are guys like that. Sean Case was amazing. He's an MLB TV guy now, but like a delight. If you understand your fame and you get that it's also like, I would say Shaq, the difference between Shaq and Kobe, one of them, Shaq was in on the joke. I'm wearing basically glorified pajamas and making millions of dollars to throw a round ball through a tin cylinder.

This is ridiculous. Kobe wasn't in on the joke. Kobe was like, this is life or death on the black mamba. Shaq, when I interviewed Shaq, I interviewed Shaq at Turner Studios in Atlanta. And this was before Kobe died. I'm sure he would not have said that after Kobe died, but I was like, I always found it interesting

that Kobe nicknamed himself the Black Mamba and really thought of himself as the Black Mamba. But you had like a Superman tattoo on your arm, but you knew it was kind of a joke. And he goes, he, Shaq goes, now you know what I was dealing with. I think that's like, I think that's right. Like, Kobe thought of himself literally as the black mamba

I would strike you I'm the black mamba and Shaq's like just in his pool kicking back and there's just something to be said for a dude No one likes the dude who gives themselves a nickname like you open the book with the guy chies chies, right? Well, who was the center that called himself like the franchise? Yeah So it's a buyer's name yourself chice by chives Yeah, it was Cedric Sabay, it was nicknamed himself Chice. I'm gonna go by Chice. It's like the dude who wears the fedora, and like the self-proclaimed cool guy. No one likes that guy. If you ever meet someone and they're like,

yeah, my name's Jim, but you can call me the killer. Yeah, dude, exactly. I'm gonna call you Jim, I'm not calling you the killer. And these have to be earned. And Kobe was the man, and I did love Mom the Mentality. I love him, I love him, he's my guy, but you have to be given, just of dudes hanging out being dudes.

Giving yourself a nickname is the juiciest thing. But we're in, I mean the church of Kobe in Orange County in Los Angeles, I think is the most, it's probably the number one. I would say love of Kobe supersedes religion, politics, all of it. Yeah, but the thing is, it's okay. Number one, he died young, and that's a big part of it. this story is powerful stories powerful and there's no there's no harm in it

Like he did work his ass off factually he worked his ass off now You may say the sexual assault blah blah blah blah that was buried to a certain degree for me It's the shooting percentage. It was just a little low. Oh, yeah I'll say controversial take I don't think he'll be one of the ten greatest by that's where I'm at I'm like things right on shut up. Can you guys shut up? Mid-range jump jumpers rip., mid-range jumpers rip, okay? Mid-range jumpers are good percentage shot. The Kobe assist, he had the most misses for put backs

because he was always getting our test had that triple back. I love our tests. If Kobe had been drafted by the New Jersey Nets, as he was supposed to be, John Calipari was the head coach. He chickened out at the last minute and they drafted Kerry Kittles.

If Kobe Bryant is drafted by the New Jersey Nets and he plays his career in the Brendan Byrne Arena in New Jersey, does he become Kobe? I don't think so. I think he's a great player. I think he's a great player. But does he land more like a Tracy McGrady kind of spot? Or Vince Carter or something like that.

I mean, circumstance was great. And his whole team put him in that position in many ways, which is great. You have the Adidas DL coming out. They forced the trade Charlotte the whole Laker thing But if he's a New Jersey net playing alongside like Sam Cassow and Jason Williams, is he is he Kobe? Right and with athletes you feel that way that it's like you get the the print of the photo But the water you get developed in is how good the careers gonna be. Yeah I mean there's certain guys Shaq would have gone anywhere and he would have been Shaq

Yeah, just a big dominant center went to Orlando. We went to mean, there's certain guys, Shaq would have gone anywhere and he would have been Shaq. It was just a big dominant center. I went to Orlando, we went to nowhere and made it something. But a lot of guys are Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant. Is there that great of a differential in their athleticism? Kobe wanted it really bad. Maybe he would have lifted the nets to great heights. Yeah. I don't know. It's an interesting question. I mean, I think if T-Mac played with Shaq, there's no way to say, but they would have won one or two at least I've got if Grant Hill had stayed healthy Grant Hill would have been one Of the 20 greatest players. Yeah, like there's a lot of hips in this whole thing, you know How do you like living in Orange County? I?

Actually love it. I love the beach. I love I love walks You know, I love everything like that The food is leaves a lot to be desired as a New Yorker the pizza and big was to suck Although I love them. You guys know the Courage Bagel here in LA? Oh, Courage, yeah. That's like the new, yes. It's good.

It actually lives up to the hype. If you're going Monday, there's no way. You know like, I love bagels over there by Ocean Ranch? Oh my God, that place is terrible. That's what we always say, dude. We used to go there all the time. I used to go up on all the balls. But I didn't know any different, this is what I knew.

Wait, I want to tell you my introduction to Orange County. We're living here, and there's a pizza place, and it's literally called New York Pizza, okay? I go in and I go out, take two slices. And he goes, we don't do slices. And I go, are you fucking kidding me? He goes, we don't do slices. I get in the car, I call my wife, angry.

I'm like, I just went to New York Pizza and they don't do fucking slices. How is that? What, and like what is avocado on pizza? Like what is like pineapple on pizza? What is this shit? We do everything in bulk. And have you been to Bagel Shackle?

They got pretty solid bagels. Which one is that? It's in San Clemente and San Juan Capistrano. I don't know, is it good? I think it's great. We've all been to it. We like it. I love it.

Bear flag is bomb, dude. The seafood spot, if you've ever been there. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, very good. I think Orange County is a great place to live. I do. And like, the thing is people are like, I am very liberal and people are like, oh you're gonna hate it But it's more purple It really is purple and if you actually get involved you feel like you can make a difference like I can't we moved here from New

Rochelle, New York, which is super liberal and I was one of eight thousand Jewish liberal New Yorkers you move out here and like It's kind of different opinions and different people and I kind of find it refreshing actually, you know You could probably sway some minds whereas Whereas there it's an echo chamber and there's places that are echo chambers. 100%. It's fiscally conservative and they definitely want things to like, you know, have a veneer of, like affluence, I guess.

Sure. But I do find that it's not the most curious bunch, but they're socially a little more liberal than people might assume. It'll be interesting, and this is way off topic, it'll be interesting and not a good way if you start having ICE raids in Orange County and people no longer have their gardeners.

I know that sounds jokey jokey, I don't mean to jokey jokey. I think a lot of these people who are like, no, we love Republican, blah, blah, blah. Or no, we need to crack down on immigration. It's easy to say when you're just watching it on TV, but when all of a sudden all these wealthy people no longer have their gardeners,

or they go to the local grocer and the produce isn't the same, I don't know. Dude, it literally will affect their backyard. And nannies, what if they're snatching nannies at the park? A lot of undocumented nannies. You know, I grew up there. I went to high school with undocumented guys. I'm not saying this like as like, hey, geography,

they were some of the best guys I knew. I grew up around undocumented nannies. I love them like they're family. And I do think there's a good argument for like having stricter immigration. And I wish there was a Democrat making a stronger narrative case for like the populist reasons that having more immigrants is

good you know and why would be economically beneficial I haven't seen that from no basically anyone it's all just this moral thing which I think is kind of a losing argument if you're not touching it all the time but I do think they've kind of spared Orange County for that reason because they don't want to if you do it in a blue city there's some shot in Freud but if but if that starts happening in Orange County, I think you'll see a lot more pushback because people don't want it to disrupt

their day-to-day life. I think the Democrats have made a terrible, terrible mistake. I think they got freaked out by immigration because look, Biden did a shitty job. Terrible job. There was no doubt about it, there was no denying it. And Democrats now are like,

we need to stay away from immigration. The thing is the visual of masked agents driving around, grabbing your nanny, grabbing your girls, grabbing these people in fields, is a ugly, ugly image that I can't imagine even most Trump supporters are in favor of. And at this point, most of us know, we all know immigrants,

many of us know undocumented immigrants. And most of these people are just working their fucking asses off, and they just like, they've been here for, you can't take the mom away from, who's been here for 20 years, away from her family and send her to El Salvador. You can't do it.

Yeah. And they're scared. People are canceling birthday parties. People aren't, like it's definitely affected the day to day life. But you know, I understand the argument where it's like, you know, we don't have enough housing. What if we got, and then like wages have been stagnant.

If we get rid of all the illegal immigrants, that's like 5% of the workforce, wages will go up. I don't think it'll actually work like that. But it's the kind of Aaron Rodgers thinking that makes sense at a snap look. Do you think a lot of white people in Orange County are applying for the job, being nannies and being- No, and unemployment is very low right now.

So it's like, I don't even think that's, but then you see like, you know, they pay a hundred billion in taxes, but they get 200 billion in entitlements. And I understand all those. I wish there was a Democrat who was really, digging into that and making the case. Cause I think that's where the movement could happen.

But we'll see. Yeah, I'm glad we talked about that. That'll be fun. Yeah. Yeah. Politics, everyone loves politics. You know what? This world needs another liberal journalist.

That's very new. Yeah. You know what, this world needs another liberal journalist. Is this a part of the show where there's awkward silence? I completely disagree with everything you guys are doing. No, you think about the work that these ice guys are doing and the fact that they have to wear masks to do it just goes and lets you know. It should be work you're doing proudly like getting the criminals. You know there was a law in place in California before it became a sanctuary city called 287g where local police ice wouldn't do raids what would happen is local police would arrest someone they would run their id check and if they were illegal then they would get put into the system with ice but it ended up

being bad for the community because they felt like they were being racially profiled by the local police. So, you know, then they're not going to testify in a case against a criminal because they're worried about getting sent home. So when that got taken away, that's when ICE became a bigger force in terms of doing the apprehensions. And I think the ICE guy was basically saying that he thinks Trump is putting this pressure on blues cities and states so that they'll reinstate 287G. Interesting. And then we won't need this federal overreach because the state will be taking care of it on its own.

I wanna sound like a 16 year old me for a minute. Is that okay? Yeah. Speaking directly to these ICE agents wearing masks, you guys are just a bunch of fucking pussy motherfuckers. Like you're wearing masks, you're wearing masks. Like either do your job proudly and do it the way you're supposed to do it,

but the mass thing is like, first of all, it's creepy as hell. You're some gardener, you're some guy working and someone comes along in a mask, doesn't identify himself, doesn't tell you what you're being arrested for, doesn't even check if you're an American citizen. They've actually grabbed up and arrested

and had to let go American citizens. And what they do, which is the ultimate bullshit, the Department of Homeland Security will use the, they'll say, well, he, this person assaulted an officer. And like assaulting an officer means someone is grabbing you and you're like, what are you doing? What are you doing? And that's assaulting an officer.

So they're literally saying these people are assaulting officers as their excuse when they round up people who are Americans. Yeah. And it does, a lot of that's been really I saw the numbers They're like 75% of the people were grabbing our criminals. I'm like 25% being Non criminals who have been here for a long time is a terrible. So that's a high number Yeah, and they were like my buddy was like bragging about he's a little good. I'm like dude 25% like you got to be more accurate than that like the

They did the poll on it and most the country doesn't want non criminal immigrants sent home, they just don't think it's worth the we always do in my house we do the If you if these are your odds of dying in a plane crash like if someone said you get on a plane 25% chance the plane crashes are you getting on on the plane, fuck no. So back to shitty bagels. Yeah. Fuckin' A, man. Sucks, man. We did the bagels, dude.

It's bad, the bagels aren't good here. I don't know what to say. Do you know what you're doing after the Tupac book? Kinda sorta, this is, it's a vanity project. They let me do it, I'm doing a memoir about my early journalism career. I was the biggest fuck up ever for two and a half years. That's awesome.

In Nashville, I was really bad. I my early journalism career. I was the biggest fuck up ever for two and a half years in Nashville. I was really bad. I made so many mistakes and just this whole journey I went on. Nobody's going to care. But I'll read this. Cool. That sounds cool. What were the teams in that? Was it were the predators there? No, they weren't even there yet. The oilers are just moving to Nashville. Okay. Yeah. To Memphis at first. The Houston Oilers moved to Memphis, became the Tennessee Oilers, then became the Tennessee Titans. We had no when I was in Nashville

94 to 96 a long time ago. There are no pro sports teams. The biggest show in town was Vanderbilt Yeah, the joke of the SEC, I guess I read it be Alabama. Thank God bro went there, right? He did. Yeah And then Delaware, that's the wingt offense that Irvin far base the offense off of How'd you know there was a wing tee? Cause it's in your book. Oh yeah. I am a Delaware Blue Hen.

Oh you went there? I went to Delaware. Oh. Joe Flacco, Rich Gannon, Joe Biden. I've heard about that a mile ago. Yeah I went to Delaware. Delaware had the wing tee offense. When I was covering football, when I was in college,

they ran this awesome wing tee offense. Wing tee is crazy hard to follow. It's all just a run and a beer and a switch. Yeah, it's great. They don't do that anymore. Yeah, I miss it. Yeah, the blue hens. Do you know that blue hens nickname?

Fighting blue hens? No. There's a guy, Coach Dan Casey on Instagram and TikTok. You gotta follow him. He'll just show old school running highlights and he's real good with breaking down the X's and O's and he'll be like, he'll just do clips honoring great pass pro from Michael Pittman

or Lorenzo Neal full backing. It's pornography, it's amazing. Yeah, it's really good. But then you don't get any work done as you just watch it. For me, that's the lifeblood. If I look back on my life and it was all that and masturbation, I'd be like, it was a good life. As long as you're not masturbating over wing TV.

I'm going from Jenna Jameson to Barry Sanders. Sometimes I don't switch the tabs quick enough and I finish at the wrong moment. I respect that. Yeah, it's fair. I'm not as big of a sports fan as these guys, but I found your TikTok and that like, just hearing you talk about sports makes me want to

watch sports all the time. Yeah. I just TikTok, I'm telling you. TikTok was like, I joined a year ago. I joined in February of last year. My son, Emmett, was like, don't do TikTok. And I only joined TikTok because this columnist for a website called the Defector sports website,

he bashed me for giving, when I was on Twitter, I'm not anymore, but I gave advice to some journalists and he's basically like, this old man doesn't know what he's talking about. You don't take advice from him. So I was like, I'm going to try TikTok and my son's like, don't do it. And I'm like, I'm going to do it.

He's like, don't use filters. I'm like, all right, I won't use filters. He's like, don't talk politics. And I'm like, eh. And TikTok in a way, like you guys asked about where journalism is going, like it gives you a chance to actually, I thought it was gonna be 60 seconds now, 60 seconds out,

my early videos of that. But people seem to like actually stories and storytelling, you know, old school stories. So it's been good for me. And I got a YouTube show, I have a YouTube show called Press Box Chronicles where every week I tell a different sports story. I got that cause of TikTok.

Had different meetings with different executives because of TikTok. So it's become my favorite little spot. Awesome. Now, hearing you talk about sports, I mean, it just makes me wanna like, talking about baseball makes me wanna, I was just thinking, I was like,

I gotta watch baseball at night. Like, just stuff like that. Like it's so captivating and just fun to listen to. I appreciate that. Yeah. I'm a sucker, very sucker for the movie lines in public. Oh yeah. It's so captivating and just I appreciate that listen to yes. I am a sucker weary sucker for the the movie lines in public Freaking amazing. We went yeah JT's directing them and we've been we're doing social network today And then we're filming rocky on Thursday

So we're going through all the rocky scenes and trying to find the best one So what's about which one do you what do you think we should do off the top of our head real quick? Cuz we have three that we've picked. Oh, I got the one you should do. Yeah this Rocky three when he's about to quit and and then he runs on the beach. Don't talk about Adrian is like Obviously there's you can't win For where's the fight Russia you can't win. That was Rocky IV. Russia, where's the fight? Russia.

You can't win. And then he goes and drives and he has the montage in his head. Oh, driving like the Corvette. He crumples the whole, huge Rocky guy. You know, I'm Rocky IV and Rocky I and Creed. Those are the only ones I've seen. I'm a big Creed guy.

One for Creed. Creed is one of the best sports movies of all time. It's a great movie. Creed is a great, it's one of my favorite movies of all time. Beautiful movie. I agree. Rank the Rockies. So I would probably go Creed number one.

Yeah, I would too actually. Yeah, I think the way that they took the mythology and they built it into a modern story, and it almost made the old movies better. Cause I was like, oh, this is like real religion here. The scene where he's boxing in front of the screen of Apollo Creed. And he's Rocky. He's fighting against his dad all that shit killed me and then

we're going through it now so I'd probably go Creed I look I love number one I think it's the best movie moving it's from that 70s era of like a tour filmmaking I really respect it but I'd still go I go Creed Rocky 4 Rocky 1 Rocky one, Rocky three, Rocky two, Rocky five. Well, Rocky Balboa. I go Rocky five before Rocky two and Balboa. Balboa is kind of rough, isn't it? I like number five. I know people don't like it.

I like the whole Tommy gun shit. I like, hey, one more round. I didn't hear no bell. Okay, my wife loves the song because she's a huge out in John song and there's a song making of a man that is the theme song of that movie. It was by out in John. I don't love brain dead Rocky. That's number two more. No, that's Rocky five. No, that's um, yeah when he's Tommy gun

Yeah, that Rocky that's true. I'm a brain dead rock But in to he like forgets how to read and stuff like that. Nobody's perfect Rocky three clubber Lang is the best villain mr. T. You know what? It's I should probably put that number three. I've it's right there I mean we're that's the first It's right there. I mean, that's the first scene we're doing is the Adrian one. We were watching it yesterday and I think the writing is really, really good. I agree. She's like, you're a fighter. And she goes, I don't know what I am. I know I'm a liar. I don't know if this is too much behind the

scenes. Are people around you usually aware of what's going on or no? No, we try to, we try to, it's on the setup. I like the Good Will Hunting one, we were just, that was, we just luck out with some people. I mean, you do it so many times, you find gold. So do you do it and then do it in a different location, do it in a different location? Yeah, and I'm trying to think of,

we did the social network one, we were just pitching, pitching the Harvard connection to people the Winklevoss idea and then but then well we'll have like a setup sometimes where it's like clearly we're lining up cameras and You know, it's so it's like people will be aware and it's really good. It's about like GT had a good one on our Why my blanket on the movie the Harvard movie with Damon what? Good hunting she just can't believe I couldn't do that but we were like we were doing a recruiting scene where we're supposed to be

Hitting on a girl and then Chad comes in one up to me. It's the famous scene You like the mapple scene? Yeah, and we were like asking women because we don't want to be that creepy or weird and we're like hey We and JT's like we perform movie scenes in public. Can we perform a scene for you? React naturally. And the girl's like, oh fun, we're on a date. But the best video we got was we just went up and did the dialogue to this girl, and she was so cool, had amazing reactions.

And she was British, just by chance, she turned out to have the same accent as Minnie Driver. Wow. So you strike gold sometimes, and oftentimes you just have to go up and we call it, we gotta go snipe on this one. And did they blow up from the beginning? Like was this a slow burn or was it like,

do you feel like they? You know what happened is Strider and I used to do these Instagram stories, Daily Motivates, where I would like take on a task for the day and try to like, I'm going dairy free for the day. And one was like, Strider would do them sometimes with me, we were like, we're gonna be car guys for the day. And we were like trying to talk car in an auto zone.

And then we just did this and we're like, what if we do the Too Fast Too Furious Gallo 24 line. That's awesome. To this guy and we just did it and it like, and I posted just the clip itself and that blew up. But that was like 2019. And then I was making another car video, I was doing them again at a car meet,

and then I just didn't think anything of it, and then like six months later, I like reposted that original one, and I was like, oh, I think there's, we could just keep doing these. And so I hit up Strider, I'm like, do you wanna just go to the Cars and Coffee and just do some lines and see you see how

See how it goes and we did it. Yeah, I'll do some cocaine I was like you want to do some coke and like watch Fast and Furious and then Then we post it in the first one just like took off like immediately so but then we didn't really think to do movies until like later like late last year to do like other movies and then like January we started doing like point break and And then JT's you know stepped in as director and like kind of helped us pick like good will hunting and kind of more

They were already crushing and then they were like do you want to help out because you're not doing anything. I was again down Yeah, it's so fun and it feels like We can just keep doing it and there's so many movies and it's finding the right one. My favorite is to watch it when the acting is really good. I like Good Will Hunting and I'm excited for the Rocky one too because it feels like there's a moment in the Good Will Hunting one where they're doing the Ben Affleck, Matt Damon, like, if you're still here in 20 years, I'll kick your ass.

Where I'm like, dude, they're really these guys right now. Yeah, and then like, a JT's such a film buff, like a film nerd that like, he knows, he like, he has such a deep ball of knowledge that he's able to find those good scenes. But the one I think that really kind of changed the game early on was when we did Romcom. Yeah.

We did like the family man scene. Good writing. And that's where we found that like the public, they had such a positive response to it. Where they were like, they were like, yeah, go get him man. Like, don't get on the bus Chad. Like, you know, and uh.

Yeah, that one was really good. Yeah, and it's like that, like that's with our pranks. That's what we love. Like when it's like a really positive, like shows the good side of humanity. Cause you're not making people look like assholes. No. It's a nice thing.

If anyone's an asshole. Yeah, right, right, right. Yeah. It's cool. You're not making them feel like they're you're pulling something on them. It doesn't feel that way, which is nice. Yeah. Yeah.

Now we always thought the secret we called it positive trolling. It was like when we were coming up, Nathan for you was like the biggest show and like he was always working to get the scene to a really awkward place and they would hold that. Yeah. And we were like, what if the surprise was actually we get along really well with the people and then it's like this happy ending. But it's hard to manufacture all the time,

but when it does happen, you feel really good afterwards. I have two observations. Number one, you guys should totally do a Juice Tupac's movie. Oh yeah. There's a scene where he's at the locker with the guy. When he closes the locker and his face is there all psycho. It's an amazing scene.

Bishop dude. Yeah, Bishop. Damn. Number two is, I've gone to like a couple of political rallies and every now and then these TikTok guys will show up and they're like, whatever side, but they're like very conservative. And they're just trying to make senior citizens

who are out rallying look like dicks, right? And then I always like pull them aside and I'm like, this is just mean. Like you can have your political opinion, but like they don't understand the game you're playing. I mean like they don't get the game you're playing. They're a 75 year old guy at a political march. They don't understand you asking them questions,

trying to make them look like an idiot. Like just don't do it, it's mean. And I think what you guys do is honestly the 180 of that, which is like fun and funny and enjoyable and smart. And you're not trying to make anyone look like a dick. And I think nowadays everyone's trying to make people look like assholes. Yeah, I thank you. I appreciate that.

Yeah, it's, it's, uh, except for you, you're terrible. I just want to bully senior citizens. That's my, I keep telling them, I'm like, dude, we just got to like, yeah. Um, no, it's so funny. Yeah. It's cause we're, we're sensitive guys. So when it was like posting something where it's like someone's the, it just feels too icky.

And it's like, it's heartwarming whenever we do it. Like we did that rom-com one and like the people reacted that way or it's like, it just feels good to do that. And you do it at bummer places like the bus stop or DMV. Oh yeah, that's amazing. Like, like it's ultimate bummer places bring a little spark of stoke, I guess. Yeah, it's really good.

We had one video that went like crazy about where we, during peak COVID, we handed out masks in Huntington Beach, which you know Huntington Beach is like a little more to the right, a little more belligerent. And dudes were trying to fight us, but we had to fish for it. Like it took us a while and then like five dudes tried to fight us and we're like,

that wasn't really everybody, but it was enough to make this exciting video. And we felt bad afterwards because we're like, oh, the dudes you try to fight us, like, you know, they just had a difference of opinion I hope they're not like I hope their lives aren't different now because of it So I go back down there go to bear flag this kid comes into music Yeah, that was my uncle in the video try to fight you. I'm like, oh dude. How does he feel? He's like he loved it

He's like he thought he looked really great I was like only in Huntington Beach. Yeah, I see like the end result. That's amazing. He's like, he thought he looked really great in the video. I was like, only in Huntington Beach would that be like the end result. That's really funny. Yeah. My favorite moment from that video is there's this guy on a beach cruiser, you know, just barrel chested, tan, long hair.

He's just, and we're like, hey dude, do you want a mask? He's like, it's all fake, dude. And he just keeps biking. And in my mind, he's still on the strand. He's still biking. Yeah, he's just like having the time of his life that's really funny honey Beach is like the Kentucky of California. It's a very interesting It's beautiful like the beach love it. Yeah, I love it too. Actually. Yeah, we went there one time We did a video with NFTs first came over like we're selling NFTs two guys at a bar saw the camera

They saw us they started they got into a fistfight in a bar at noon on a Wednesday. And it wasn't even like, people thought it was scripted, it was not scripted at all, it's just these two guys saw excitement and then they couldn't put a governor on it. You know Tito Ortiz was a mayor. We used to mess with him. Oh yeah, we got him a counselor. He's crazy.

Yeah, I mean he has CT. If you wanted to have some like dark laughs, watch him in interviews saying stupid things and he'll be like I want to outlive my children 100%. And he'll just. Okay buddy. But he thinks he's saying something, he thinks he's saying the opposite.

But it's really funny. Oh man. It's a good video to watch. But yeah. It's like interviewing like old boxers. Like it's actually sad interviewing old boxers not happy. Do you cover boxing at all? I cover a good video to watch. It's like interviewing like old boxers. Like it's actually sad to hear old boxers not happy. Did you cover boxing at all?

I covered a decent amount of boxing. I love boxing. Yeah. I mean, the Saudis are doing a good job with that, right? Like we're getting all the fights we want. Yeah. I mean, I really love again, I'm you're in many ways you are nostalgic for what you came up with. So I came up with like the four kings and Mike Tyson is prime. I'm reading a great book right now by a guy named Mark Krieger,

it's called Baddest Man, it's about Mike Tyson. And Mike Tyson, fascinating, fascinating background. He's a guy too, like really damaged growing up. And like everything he went through, he was a product of who he was, you know, like how he was raised, he was raised like an animal. He's actually a really smart guy. And a very well read guy,

but like was raised like an animal. Boxing too. Do you see more of that father son dynamic, like with him and customado and like Jerry Angelo and a Muhammad Lee where it's like, it goes beyond like coach. Yeah. The thing is like, all right. So one thing about this book that was interesting is like, um, in a lot of ways, customado, he sold this narrative to people. Oh, it's like my in a lot of ways, customato, he sold this narrative to people, oh, it's like my son and he's my son and blah, blah, blah.

Meanwhile, he's like dropping the N word and he's like basically using, you know, he sees Mike Tyson as a product. All those people saw Mike Tyson as a product. They all saw boxers, I mean, Don King, to me, Don King and Suge Knight are basically one and the same. They basically, and guys like this are one and the same.

Like they see these young guys coming up and they like use them and milk them for everything they have and they sell this idea that, oh, it's a beautiful blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but they're just using it and milking them dry. Mike Tyson was milked dry by this guy. Half these, Don King milked everyone dry. This might be a naive question,

but you know, we talked about sports gambling and stuff. Do you think the fix is in on a lot of those fights? Do you think a lot of those promoters had it in? I think through the years, there was a naive question, but you know, we talked about sports gambling and stuff. Do you think the fix is in on a lot of those fights? Do you think a lot of those promoters had it? Years, I think through the years, there was a lot of they definitely was a lot of I mean, Don King had a lot of mafia ties and gambling ties. And boxing has been a corrupt sport forever. They're definitely the Mike Tyson. If you watch the Mike Tyson, Bruce Seldon fight the day Tupac died.

Bruce Seldon, I'm 80% took a dive in that fight. Really? Do you think he did that because he was asked to or just out of fear of taking too big of a weapon? My general guess is he probably got paid to take a dive. This was Mike Tyson's, I kind of come back. Right. He was fighting tin cans and kind of dogs and whatever.

And Bruce Souten was actually a pretty good fighter. And he's just like, it was a joke. I had a guy, I interviewed a guy at the fight. It was like, it was close up. He's like, it's the biggest joke fight I've ever gone to because he didn't even connect with him. Do you think there's been a fix in the other major sports? I mean, there have been through the years.

It's been documented. There've been point shavings and certainly black socks, scandals and stuff like that. But like when the Sixers got in over the Bucks, that one time to play the Lakers, did you think the NBA? No, I'm not that conspiracy guy. Like I remember when I was a kid and the Knicks won the draft lottery to get Patrick Ewing.

That one's a film score. And he either would have gone to the Knicks or the Pacers. And it's like, does the NBA really want Patrick Ewing playing for the Indiana Pacers? But do I think they actually fixed it? I don't. The only, I do know, factually, I wrote a book about the USFL,

the United States Football League, old football league, and they had a draft. And one year, the Heisman Trophy winner was this guy, Mike Rozier, out of Nebraska, running back, really good player. And the league had a new team coming in Pittsburgh. And the commissioner, I got this from the guy who ran the team.

The commissioner went to the owner of the Pittsburgh Maulers, the new team, and said, if we fix this draft so you get number one pick, are you guys willing to take Mike Rozier because we want him in Pittsburgh? And the owner's like, yes. So they fixed the draft. But that's the one I know for a fact happened.

Is there a soft fix where like you hear about the NBA, like maybe they send out a memo before a game to like the referees, like, hey, in this game, we want to keep a special eye on like, contact at the basket and the other teams got like three seven footers. I don't know. I haven't seen it. I just haven't seen it. I don't know.

Like the thing is the risk of getting caught, like let's say you get caught, let's say you're the NBA and you send out this memo to refs. If that comes to light, you're really fucked. Like your credibility of your league. So I'm sure you have to weigh the like, is it really worth it? Like I'm sure that NBA was not thrown by an Oklahoma City, Indiana final. No, like that's a terrible TV final, especially when it could have been the Knicks, right? Sure. But like they didn't obviously that's what

you get. Yeah. Yeah. Knicks would have been a much I'm next to get on their asses kicked though. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think all this, but the conspiratorial thinking is so pervasive now. That's cause the internet, I'm glad you're kind of fighting back against it though. Well, most of it's ridiculous. Honestly, it's more look in politics, Trump won the last election. He didn't lose body won the election before that. He didn't lose in sports. The Pacers in the Oklahoma city made the finals because they're the two best teams. Tell you, Saliburton didn't get hurt by some fake injury, he got hurt.

Like these things happen, this is what it is. But we're so, I always say to my kids, like the problem with life in regards to this stuff is we have birth and we have death and in between there's all this space to fill. And the truth of the matter is 98% of life is fairly boring. So how do we entertain ourselves?

By going to movies, by watching TV, by having sex, by masturbating, by doing this, and by creating conspiracy theories. Create these theories. Tupac was not killed by Diddy, right? Biggie didn't set up the Quad Studio shooting. On and on and on. Most of these, Patrick Ewing, the lottery was won

because the Knicks were one of the worst teams in the NBA and they won the lottery. Like. Yeah, I love entertaining conspiracies just because it's fun. the Knicks were one of the worst teams in the NBA and they won the lottery. I love entertaining conspiracies just cause it's fun. But you know, and I would, I'd be like kind of like, you know, like maybe I believe some of it. And then, but then JT took me on the JFK tour in Dallas. Have you ever done it?

I went to the, I didn't do the tour. I went to the museum though. I'm the book depository. The depository, yeah. So the tour guide takes you through the whole Lee Harvey Oswalt's route where he escaped and all that stuff. And I went into the tour, I'm like,

CIA is, you know, there's definitely multiple shooters. And we end the tour, I'm like, it was Lee Harvey Oswalt. You're like, god damn it, it was Oswalt. Yeah, I know, it was so funny. I was like, wow, that's like, cause you hear Rogan, Rogan's like, it was Lee Harvey Oswald. Like it was. You're like, God damn it. It was Oswald. It was so funny. I was like, wow, that's like. Cause you hear like Rogan, Rogan's like, I've seen the shots, impossible shot.

Then I looked at the shot, I'm like, it's not hard at all. Yeah, you go up there, you see the X's, you're like, I think I could do this. It's like. Shot a three light when I was 12. I don't know. I feel like the closer you get to something,

that's kind of how it is. A conspiracy happens because people who aren't close to the matter stir up something up. So like Anthony Fauci created blah, blah, blah of how it is. A conspiracy happens because people who aren't close to the matter stir up something up. So like Anthony Fauci created blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, if you talk to the person who met Anthony Fauci or like the NBA created, or if you talk to David Stern, the commissioner, he's gonna be like, no, this is exactly what happened.

The closer you get to something, the more you realize the truth behind it. Yeah. And like, there's like one factual evidence or piece or a motive like Fauci invested in Moderna. No one ever heard of Moderna. And it's like, well, there's some things that do line up and might support your thesis,

but there's also a thousand things that don't line up and support your thesis that are difficult to look at. Most of life is boring. And kind of chaotic too. Yeah. Yeah. And most people, a lot of it is just human error. Like, like with JFK, you're like, you kind of realize like, oh, maybe like the FBI was watching.

Yeah. But it's like, it seems to, after the tour, I'm like, it seems like they kind of just fucked up and we're trying to cover up their fuck up. Same with like the, okay, I would love for there to be some amazing conspiracy about Trump getting shot, right? That it was this and that and that. Like, I think they just fucked up.

Like, there was a guy on the roof, they missed him, he shot, like, I just think that's what happened. I don't know if the liberals say that, like, I just think he got shot. I don't know, like, I don't know how his ear got healed in like six hours, but like, whatever. Like, I do believe, you know, the shooting happened and that's just what happened.

I'm just not that guy. I'm generally not that guy. I don't guy. With the speed of the news cycle, you know, like it's like these Minnesota politicians get assassinated. I think any other year that's the top story of the year. And then now it's like a faint memory almost because, you know, we had Iran, we had the protests, just so many things were piled on top. Is the answer to just not contribute anything to the conversation? Do you ever grapple with that?

I had a friend, I won't name his name, but he had recently, not even that big a deal, but he had something go viral. He was overheard on a mic saying something and he was freaking out, my career is over, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, it'll last three days. Like at most three days.

We just don't have the attentions, man. Don't say anything, turn off it'll last three days. Like at most three days. We just don't have the attention span. Don't say anything, turn off your internet for three days. I did, about a decade ago, you should never tweet when you're at your gym. I was on my elliptical machine and I'm watching ESPN. This is maybe 11 years ago. And it was, oh no, it was Fox News. I was watching Fox News.

It was Geraldo Rivera and then flanked by four women all wearing ridiculously short skirts. And I like, I tweet out, why do the women on Fox News all dress like prostitutes? Send, right? Man. It blew up. It blew up, right?

But the thing I learned, what I did is, I was like freaking out. I was like, you know, and you start reading the replies, I'm gonna kill you and Jewish bastard and blah, blah, all these things, right? And I'm like, I'm just turning off my phone for the next 24 hours. I'm just turning it off.

When I turned it back on, it was all over. It was a stupid tweet, people make mistakes. But you know what's interesting is that you do know that, just reading your books you know people lie all the time. Like when when Brett Favre comes out of rehab Mike Holgram is like hey he wanted to go or he's not drinking anymore and you see all these people lying. So you know oftentimes in response to crisis or to big stories that a lot of the principal actors are lying but you still remain kind of steadfast that there's not like a. I just don't believe in conspiracy theories,

but I try to verify if someone's telling the truth or not. I'm just saying like, if like the Packers say some quarterback will be ready in two days, well, sometimes they're just protecting the quarterback or the team. Right. But I'm saying if the Packers say like a UFO landed on our facility yesterday, I might triple check.

What are the thing, what's the thing we're talking about right now? Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's a good point. Dude. Unbelievably sick. Yeah, this is sick. Yeah, this is awesome.

All your dreams have come true. Dude, for real though. Yeah. Is this the most- You guys have low standards. Is this the most juiced people have been to talk to you? Yeah, because usually no one, I'm just a writer sitting in a room, you know?

Like nobody, my mom always is like, my mom's like, my mom goes like, your life is so much more exciting than mine. And I'm like, mom, you have no freaking idea. Like being a writer is not exciting. Everyone always thinks the other life is exciting. Like I just, I report stuff and I, my suburban dad in Orange County looking for a good slice of pizza. Yeah, but it's cool that you, I want to ask you, you just happened to answer it through

conversation, but like you going and doing these interviews in your research because it is so in-depth and it's so amazing You have so many angles. Yeah, that's exciting though. I mean there's a writer story like you're going out there your Sandals on the frickin road, you know Just we appreciate the No, that's our biggest part. This we appreciate the fact that you guys were so to dress up and I was like, no, no, no. The pervs like when they can see your feet. I don't know if you're on with your feet already, but you'll be on there.

They can score. I've had a cool, I've had a like really fun career. Yeah, really fun career. And I love being a writer. If you told me back at the University of Delaware in like 1994 that like, like honestly, if you said to me back then like, you have written 10 books and you have a TV show, an HBO show, like there's no way

I would have thought that would happen. So it's been great. But I'm not saying it's always exciting, it's a lot of hard work, you know. Hell yeah, yeah it is. You can tell the works put into it. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, I just can't believe you've only read three of my books

three and a half halfway through the USFL was yeah No, we covered to we're big fans, but this is no, I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you Yeah, yeah, I was like, hey check out Jeff Perlman's books, too. We talked about a three ring circus Boys will be boys will be boys. Boys will be boys. I really want to read the Mets one now. That guy's one. You got one on Bo Jackson.

I do. You know, Bo Jackson was my neighbor for a day in the Hunt Club, his kids, and I would play basketball against his kids and stuff. Really? Yeah, growing up. He like rented a house there for a week. Bo Jackson's not, he's not my, he does not like me, my existence on this planet.

He doesn't like you. No, he's not happy. Damn. You said he's like the greatest athlete ever. Do you want the quick Bo Jackson wise man? Yeah, go, go, go. Yeah. I wrote this book about Bo Jackson, a biography of his life. I love Bo Jackson, right? I called him early on. I started during Covid.

I called him. I know I sent him one to my books with a letter of him working on this book and you had love to talk to you. One day I'm at home, phone rings, it's Bo Jackson, A is his Bo Jackson, hey, we talked for about 40 minutes, he's like I'm not gonna help you, because a lot of people wanna write books about me, I'm not gonna help you,

but I don't have a problem with you doing it, that's good. I write this book, it's a 95%, 98% positive book about Bo Jackson. He was, he did have two fiances at the same time when he was in college. And one is his wife now. And supposedly he didn't like that. So I have these four book events I'm gonna do

in the state of Alabama at different bookstores. And I show up at the first bookstore. And they're all independent, like Mom and Pop, Muffins and Books kind of stores, in these Florence, Alabama stuff like that. Woman goes to me, she goes, someone named Bo Jackson called here and said that we shouldn't let you speak.

And I go, who was it? And she goes, it was Bo Jackson. I go to the next place. They're like, Bo Jackson called here. He said we should, Bo Jackson literally called all four bookstores. Bo Jackson called all four bookstores to tell them not to let me speak. And to their credit, all four bookstores, Bo Jackson called all four bookstores to tell them not to let me speak.

And to their credit, all four bookstores still let me speak. Hey. Love that. That's cool. Yeah, anyway, those are Bo Jackson's. Oh, man. I get it though. I get why he's mad, right? If you read the book,

it is an absolute love letter to Bo Jackson. No, totally. So sure, but like- But he's taking grief from his wife now. And he's like- I do get that. I get it if your wife is pissed. Happy wife, happy life, that whole thing. I. No, totally. And so sure. But like, but he's taking grief from his wife now. And he's like, I do get that. I get it. If your wife is happy wife, happy life, that whole thing. I get it. Yeah. Come over and just freaking break up, break your book. I was like, I can outrun him, but I don't think, yeah, he doesn't have an artificial hip. So, you know, that was awesome, dude. Thank you so much. Nice. And I'm right beside you Going deep

Going deep My days are going deep My time's empty